PL Scheduling: Will Harvard Take their Ball And Go Home?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=529039


Fordham’s decision in June to begin awarding football scholarships starting with this year’s recruiting class piqued the interest of a lot of people in the Ivy League football community. The move shows a changing mentality in the Football Championship Subdivision (FCS, formerly Division 1-AA), which includes the Ancient Eight.

“It’s something we’re definitely keeping an eye on because if they go scholarships—we’re talking about the league now—it will change dramatically,” Harvard coach Tim Murphy says. “The last time any Patriot League school had scholarships in that league was Holy Cross in the ’80s and ’90s. They dominated Eastern football at this level in a way that wasn’t seen before and hasn’t been seen since.”

...

So with its sister conference seemingly headed down a path towards athletic scholarships, is the Ivy League close behind?

“It will never happen in our league, and it shouldn’t,” Murphy says. “It’s not appropriate, because every kid here has something a little bit special about them. I think while in a certain world you might think that might be great for Harvard football, I think anything you do to try to distinguish athletes as being different from other students would not be a good thing.”

The Ivy League’s resistance to handing out athletic scholarships is motivated by the conference’s understanding of its unique role in collegiate football. According to Murphy, the Ivy League is clear in its pursuit to educate those who deserve it most, whether it’s on the field or in the classroom. And by extending financial aid to a young person who’s intellectually curious, not just because he can kick a ball through the uprights from over 50 yards out, the Ancient Eight is continuing its long-standing tradition of asking more from its students.

But if the Patriot League does step up the quality of its recruits, then necessary alterations will inevitably have to be made to Harvard’s non-conference schedule.

“We’ll have to adjust for sure,” Murphy admits, adding that the decision to schedule Fordham in an upcoming season was made “before we knew they were going to scholarships.”

What I read from this is: PL, if you go scholarship, Harvard won't schedule you. We'll schedule San Diego first. We'd rather fly cross-country than schedule Holy Cross next door.

IMO, this is a IL shot across the bow against the PL going scholarship.

Discuss.

[danefan]

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=529039



What I read from this is: PL, if you go scholarship, Harvard won't schedule you. We'll schedule San Diego first. We'd rather fly cross-country than schedule Holy Cross next door.

IMO, this is a IL shot across the bow against the PL going scholarship.

Discuss.

Done. No PL scholarships. Good find.

[DFW HOYA]

[url]
IMO, this is a IL shot across the bow against the PL going scholarship.


Of course it is. And look who they added, perhaps with this issue in mind:

"We’re also going to be down in D.C. against Georgetown. Those are games that make sense to us, even though they might cost a little more in terms of travel.”

[Franks Tanks]

Of course it is. And look who they added, perhaps with this issue in mind:

"We’re also going to be down in D.C. against Georgetown. Those are games that make sense to us, even though they might cost a little more in terms of travel.”

Certain Ivy and Patriot matchups will still take place, but with not as much frequency. I would love to continue with our traditional rivals like Penn and Columbia, and I think they will still continue. If we dont play Harvard its not the end of the world, and the PL has to do what is best for us.

[RichH2]

No great loss IMHO . Would be nice to keep Penn as I really dont like them and the series was good until they bailed, but otherwise dont care how Ivies schedule.

[danefan]

You're saying it won't matter as fans, but it will matter for the Admins. They'll lose the connection to the Ivy league. Don't you think that will matter more to the PL Admins than being competitive nationally (especially when you add the costs to some of the PL schools on top of that)?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Of course it is. And look who they added, perhaps with this issue in mind:

"We’re also going to be down in D.C. against Georgetown. Those are games that make sense to us, even though they might cost a little more in terms of travel.”


Certain Ivy and Patriot matchups will still take place, but with not as much frequency. I would love to continue with our traditional rivals like Penn and Columbia, and I think they will still continue. If we dont play Harvard its not the end of the world, and the PL has to do what is best for us.

Could Murphy be saying, "We’re also going to be down in D.C. against Georgetown. Those are games that make sense to us, even though they might cost a little more in terms of travel (and they won't pose as much of a threat to us.)”

Call me naive, but after a few years of going to San Diego, Campbell and the like, I think not a few IL folks will be wondering why they can't play "traditional OOC rivals" in their backyard. The charms of playing in Buies Creek will wear off fast.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Something else worth discussing:


“It’s something we’re definitely keeping an eye on because if they go scholarships—we’re talking about the league now—it will change dramatically,” Harvard coach Tim Murphy says. “The last time any Patriot League school had scholarships in that league was Holy Cross in the ’80s and ’90s. They dominated Eastern football at this level in a way that wasn’t seen before and hasn’t been seen since.”

Will the change, truly, be as "dramatic" as Murphy says it will be? It's not like the Academic Index will be jettisoned - the PL will still need to admit the kids with tougher standards, modeled after the IL's academic index at that. All it would do is allow PL schools to COMPETE with Harvard's "free education if you're in the bottom 99% of all incomes".

The more I read this, the more it sounds like fear from Murphy that the PL will now be able to compete with Harvard - and that maybe Dartmouth, Cornell, and others might be very eager to level the playing field with the richest schools in the IL. Unsurprisingly, he likes holding all the cards and not allowing any other PL (or maybe IL) teams to get in on the fun.

[Ivytalk]

This is the second time around for this Harvard Crimson article, isn't it? I had a sense of deja vu when reading it. Maybe it was on the other board, in which case AGS got scooped.xcoffeex

Anyway, nothing really new here. Murph will never lead an Ivy charge into the FB playoffs.

[401ks]

Call me naive, but after a few years of going to San Diego, Campbell and the like, I think not a few IL folks will be wondering why they can't play "traditional OOC rivals" in their backyard. The charms of playing in Buies Creek will wear off fast.

Okay, you're naive! :D

I won't comment on Buies Creek (Are there any Ivys that have scheduled Campbell at this point?), but West Coast alumni LOVE to have their beloved alma mater come out to San Diego and the players also love the trip to sunny Southern California.

Dartmouth will be coming to Indianapolis, and it is my understanding that the Midwest Dartmouth alumni are thrilled!

It has been said to me by Ivy League supporters that the Ivys are national universities that should have national athletic exposure and should not be confined to "their backyard".

I'm not sure how many (just for example) New Hampshire alums live in Southern California, or how many Delaware alums live in the Midwest. My guess would be.... not many. However, the Ivy alums are spread all over the country. The "charms" of having their school's team appear in games close(r) to their home will not "wear off fast" in my humble opinion.

xpeacex

[carney2]

Perhaps, if Murphy's way truly is the Ivy way, this would be the tipping point for the Ivys to play a more representative FCS schedule. That would not necessarily be a bad thing.

On the flip side it might also force some Patriot League athletic directors to get off their duffs and do some real scheduling. I'm not mentioning any names xrolleyesx but Lafayette has averaged 3.5 games per year against Ivy opponents for the past 10 years. Given our record against the Ancient Eight, we've had every bit as much trouble in that 1/2 game as in all the others.

[Go...gate]

I regret to say that whether we go scholarship or not, I think the Ivy League will increasingly go in the direction being pursued by Dartmouth, which, IMO, is a terrible mistake.

I love the Ivy and its tradition as much as anyone. I was raised on it and have been exposed to it throughout my lifetime. But, even if they insist otherwise, there is nothing like testing yourself against the best competition, whether in athletics, business or anything else. That the Ivy - ostensibly America's best educational institutions, supposedly setting an example for everyone else - refuses to do this in athletics is inexplicable.

[TheValleyRaider]

Meh, we never played Harvard anyway xcoffeex

[Go...gate]

Meh, we never played Harvard anyway xcoffeex

Actually we did, just not that many times. There were som fun games at Harvard Stadium over the years.

[JohnStOnge]

And by extending financial aid to a young person who’s intellectually curious, not just because he can kick a ball through the uprights from over 50 yards out, the Ancient Eight is continuing its long-standing tradition of asking more from its students.

Oh PLEASE. The Ivy League doesn't take students because they're "intellectually curious." It takes them because they are at the very tip top of the distribution of the brightest to begin with. You can be as "intellectually curous" as "intellectually curious" can be and you're not getting into an Ivy League school if you score at the 50th percentile of the SAT and have a 2.5 GPA in high school.

I don't know whether the Ivy League "asks more" of its students or not in terms of the rigors of the education offerred. What I do know is that they "ask more" in terms of how innately talented the students are to begin with.

I wonder if this guy would say with a straight face that every Ivy League football player would be in an Ivy League school if they couldn't play football pretty well. What a bunch of pompous windbags these people are.

[bonarae]

Could Murphy be saying, "We’re also going to be down in D.C. against Georgetown. Those are games that make sense to us, even though they might cost a little more in terms of travel (and they won't pose as much of a threat to us.)”

Call me naive, but after a few years of going to San Diego, Campbell and the like, I think not a few IL folks will be wondering why they can't play "traditional OOC rivals" in their backyard. The charms of playing in Buies Creek will wear off fast.

The scheduling of such teams might be the end of the road for Ivy scheduling. The Commissioner needs to open up and let the other teams follow Princeton: schedule other teams (i.e. scholarship teams) with the likes of The Citadel and allow us to schedule even FBS teams like Tulane.


Something else worth discussing:

Will the change, truly, be as "dramatic" as Murphy says it will be? It's not like the Academic Index will be jettisoned - the PL will still need to admit the kids with tougher standards, modeled after the IL's academic index at that. All it would do is allow PL schools to COMPETE with Harvard's "free education if you're in the bottom 99% of all incomes".

The more I read this, the more it sounds like fear from Murphy that the PL will now be able to compete with Harvard - and that maybe Dartmouth, Cornell, and others might be very eager to level the playing field with the richest schools in the IL. Unsurprisingly, he likes holding all the cards and not allowing any other PL (or maybe IL) teams to get in on the fun.

I believe he has the point. Sad but true. xsmhx


Okay, you're naive! :D

I won't comment on Buies Creek (Are there any Ivys that have scheduled Campbell at this point?), but West Coast alumni LOVE to have their beloved alma mater come out to San Diego and the players also love the trip to sunny Southern California.

Dartmouth will be coming to Indianapolis, and it is my understanding that the Midwest Dartmouth alumni are thrilled!

It has been said to me by Ivy League supporters that the Ivys are national universities that should have national athletic exposure and should not be confined to "their backyard".

I'm not sure how many (just for example) New Hampshire alums live in Southern California, or how many Delaware alums live in the Midwest. My guess would be.... not many. However, the Ivy alums are spread all over the country. The "charms" of having their school's team appear in games close(r) to their home will not "wear off fast" in my humble opinion.

xpeacex

True. I don't think the effect of playing new teams near the alumni's hometown will wear off fast.


Perhaps, if Murphy's way truly is the Ivy way, this would be the tipping point for the Ivys to play a more representative FCS schedule. That would not necessarily be a bad thing.

On the flip side it might also force some Patriot League athletic directors to get off their duffs and do some real scheduling. I'm not mentioning any names xrolleyesx but Lafayette has averaged 3.5 games per year against Ivy opponents for the past 10 years. Given our record against the Ancient Eight, we've had every bit as much trouble in that 1/2 game as in all the others.

Tipping point? True. xsmhx (See my first reply above)
The PL also needs to open up to the South, the Midwest and West. There are many more FCS opponents out there than you can imagine. Even Montana deserves a game with their fellow FCS brethren from the Northeast.


I regret to say that whether we go scholarship or not, I think the Ivy League will increasingly go in the direction being pursued by Dartmouth, which, IMO, is a terrible mistake.

I love the Ivy and its tradition as much as anyone. I was raised on it and have been exposed to it throughout my lifetime. But, even if they insist otherwise, there is nothing like testing yourself against the best competition, whether in athletics, business or anything else. That the Ivy - ostensibly America's best educational institutions, supposedly setting an example for everyone else - refuses to do this in athletics is inexplicable.

Being pursued by Dartmouth? Of scheduling fellow non-scholarship opponents who play talent at a lower level than the Ivies? I hate to see it happening - let Harvard play teams in relative obscurity - a far cry from its historic pre-Ivy League past. xnonono2x

What if New Orleans continues to pursue its FCS dream? Do we mean to automatically schedule them and other new/future FCS teams like Old Dominion and Lamar? No. The Ivies carefully search for their opponents.

I'm afraid the Ivies are going their own way and ignoring the suggestions of us, the fans. We must have to accept that. xnonono2x xsmhx

[Ivytalk]

Meh, we never played Harvard anyway xcoffeex

Wrong-o, Kemosabe. I took my son and my Harvard schools committee friend up to Hamilton for the epic '95 game, a 28-8 Harvard win that turned out to be one of the only two wins Harvard had all year!:pxbawlingx We were coming off a loss to frickin' Columbia, fer gawdsakes.

The addlepated Colgate press box guy talked all the time, even during Harvard FG attempts, and we kept yelling at the old geezer to shaddup!

10,000 in town for parents' weekend. 3000 found their way into the stadium. Tossed a lot of footballs to my 7th grade son, a foreshadowing of the WR he became!xnodx

We had a pre-game lunch at the only pizzeria in town. Had a nice dinner the night before at the Colgate Inn, Spent the night at the home of a Colgate alum that my friend arranged. A great weekend, of which I have many fond memories!

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm well aware of the fact Colgate and Harvard have met before, but let's not get carried away here

It was a grand total of 9 games

Other Ivy opponents for contrast:
Dartmouth: 24
Columbia: 26
Yale: 38
Princeton: 50
Brown: 56
Cornell: 91

The only one we've played less is Penn (8)

The Maroon and Crimson haven't met on the gridiron since '99. If HU decides to drop the PL from their schedule, it's not changing much on our end. Would love to have played Harvard, especially given our current runs of success. But if they're not going to be interested, well....

[ngineer]

Very hypocritical of the IL if Murphy's statement is representative of the League. As said elsewhere, with the IL policy of giving free tuition for families with incomes under $180,000, they're giving scholarships to most of their recruits. If the PL presidents piss in their pants because of this, they're worthless.

[blukeys]

Very hypocritical of the IL if Murphy's statement is representative of the League. As said elsewhere, with the IL policy of giving free tuition for families with incomes under $180,000, they're giving scholarships to most of their recruits. If the PL presidents piss in their pants because of this, they're worthless.

And if the PL pres's cave to this Ivy blackmail then they are worthless as well.

[ngineer]

And if the PL pres's cave to this Ivy blackmail then they are worthless as well.

yeah,,that's what I meant...;)

[Ivytalk]

What a crock. Harvard could pick up $500K in a nanosecond if one of its illiquid hedge fund investments paid off. :p They don't need an FBS game, and the idea of Harvard losing a prized recruit to Fordham or anyone else for financial reasons is a bunch of hooey.xmadx

Note to self: decline to write check to alma mater for fourth consecutive year.xrulesx

[Go...gate]

Wrong-o, Kemosabe. I took my son and my Harvard schools committee friend up to Hamilton for the epic '95 game, a 28-8 Harvard win that turned out to be one of the only two wins Harvard had all year!:pxbawlingx We were coming off a loss to frickin' Columbia, fer gawdsakes.

The addlepated Colgate press box guy talked all the time, even during Harvard FG attempts, and we kept yelling at the old geezer to shaddup!

10,000 in town for parents' weekend. 3000 found their way into the stadium. Tossed a lot of footballs to my 7th grade son, a foreshadowing of the WR he became!xnodx

We had a pre-game lunch at the only pizzeria in town. Had a nice dinner the night before at the Colgate Inn, Spent the night at the home of a Colgate alum that my friend arranged. A great weekend, of which I have many fond memories!

Prof. Bill Oostenick (sp?) was the Colgate PA guy.

At least you guys won two that year. We lost 'em all. xbawlingx

[Go...gate]

I'm well aware of the fact Colgate and Harvard have met before, but let's not get carried away here

It was a grand total of 9 games

Other Ivy opponents for contrast:
Dartmouth: 24
Columbia: 26
Yale: 38
Princeton: 50
Brown: 56
Cornell: 91

The only one we've played less is Penn (8)

The Maroon and Crimson haven't met on the gridiron since '99. If HU decides to drop the PL from their schedule, it's not changing much on our end. Would love to have played Harvard, especially given our current runs of success. But if they're not going to be interested, well....

Let's not kid ourselves. To lose Ivy games completely would certainly transform Colgate's football scheduling, even more than it already has been changed under our Athletic Director (who came by his experience as a swimming coach). We are the Ivies' most-played non-conference opponent.

[RichH2]

Gentlemen , you all seem to be under the impression that as to athletics the Presidents have a worth. Those that do are few and far between,right now There doesnot appear to be a lot of decisiveness in the PL group. Lack of resources is evident in some cases but lack of will for necessary change does not seem to be abundant

[TheValleyRaider]

Let's not kid ourselves. To lose Ivy games completely would certainly transform Colgate's football scheduling, even more than it already has been changed under our Athletic Director (who came by his experience as a swimming coach). We are the Ivies' most-played non-conference opponent.

Agreed

I'm merely talking about Harvard in particular xpeacex

[Ivytalk]

Agreed

I'm merely talking about Harvard in particular xpeacex

I stand by what I said in post #22 above. Murphy's interview was a smokescreen for the status quo.xsmhx

Checkbook slammed shut.xmadx

[TheValleyRaider]

I stand by what I said in post #22 above. Murphy's interview was a smokescreen for the status quo.xsmhx

Truly the saddest part about this for the Ivies :(

[ElSissy]

I wonder if Princeton is feeling any pressure from the other Ivies to stop scheduling the USDs and Citadels of the football world.

[Franks Tanks]

I wonder if Princeton is feeling any pressure from the other Ivies to stop scheduling the USDs and Citadels of the football world.

I doubt it. Dartmouth is scheduling teams like Sacred Heart, and Brown has played Duquesne in the past and Stoney Brook this year. Columbia plays Wagner and Central Conn as well, so it is becoming more the norm.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I wonder if Princeton is feeling any pressure from the other Ivies to stop scheduling the USDs and Citadels of the football world.


I doubt it. Dartmouth is scheduling teams like Sacred Heart, and Brown has played Duquesne in the past and Stoney Brook this year. Columbia plays Wagner and Central Conn as well, so it is becoming more the norm.

But therein lies the hypocrisy. Every one of these schools you mention are "scholarship" in the traditional sense (and you can add Northeastern, which Harvard has played and beaten in recent memory).

If you're really going to schedule for "ideological purity in scholarships" you'll need to play Division I non-scholarship competition. In that case, you'll have exactly one local option (Marist) and otherwise need to hop on a plane to play OOC games at places like San Diego and Jacksonville, sure, but also Buies Creek, NC and Poughkeepsie, NY. (Unless you schedule D-III NESCAC schools.... or MIT... or RPI...)

More importantly for Harvard, however, is that it makes zero sense to do this at any level. Many D-I schools, and exactly zero D-III schools, cannot compete with Harvard. With their aid package, they make a mockery of a D-III mentality, never mind their facilities for Olympic sports, etc. If you thought Dayton had an unfair advantage over D-III schools, just wait until you look objectively at Harvard.

Harvard should want to schedule the best and play the best, and if there is an alignment with the PL with high-academic institutions, that's still the best match out there for them. They should be finding a way to add Stanford, Duke and Army to their OOC schedules in the next ten years, not looking at San Diego, Amherst and Union (NJ).

[carney2]

I doubt it. Dartmouth is scheduling teams like Sacred Heart, and Brown has played Duquesne in the past and Stoney Brook this year. Columbia plays Wagner and Central Conn as well, so it is becoming more the norm.

We seem convinced that there is some sort of Ivy League scheduling cabal at work here. Other than the firm commitment to play each other every year (that's 7 games) and the very loose arrangement to at least consider the Patriot League in scheduling the other 3 games, we must face the fact that these are 8 separate schools with their own scheduling problems and desires. We are seeing some murky patterns emerge:

The Ivy Big 4 (Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale), with the possible exception of Princeton who admirably appears to be charting new waters, seem content for the moment with same old, same old. The Ivy Forgotten 4 (Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth) are, with the probable exception of Brown who emerges from oblivion once or twice a decade before settling back into football's dead zone, losing contact with their Ivy brethren and are just looking for someone - anyone - they can beat. Murphy is blowing smoke with his "if they go scholarship, we're outta here" line. If they want to reamain "pure as the driven snow" they're going to have to start scheduling Amherst, Bates, Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Williams. Now, those are games the alumni would love to see.

[Ivytalk]

Murphy is blowing smoke with his "if they go scholarship, we're outta here" line. If they want to reamain "pure as the driven snow" they're going to have to start scheduling Amherst, Bates, Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Williams. Now, those are games the alumni would love to see.

Back in the Stone Age, Harvard actually played those schools -- and trounced them regularly. Those series ended generations ago, and for good reason. I don't care about watching Stanford or Northwestern. Harvard should play the most competitive OOC schedule available within FCS. That's the point that Murphy et al. just don't seem to get. Amherst, Bates and the rest are great colleges, but I wouldn't pay to watch them play football.

[Husky Alum]

Back in the Stone Age, Harvard actually played those schools -- and trounced them regularly. Those series ended generations ago, and for good reason. I don't care about watching Stanford or Northwestern. Harvard should play the most competitive OOC schedule available within FCS. That's the point that Murphy et al. just don't seem to get. Amherst, Bates and the rest are great colleges, but I wouldn't pay to watch them play football.

If Murphy wants a win, and wants to shut those up that says he won't play games against scholarship schools, real easy answer.

PLAY NORTHEASTERN

We'll go to Cambridge every year, it's no longer of a ride than going to Brookline. We actually get more fans/alumni/students there since its easier to get to and there's more parking.

[Ivytalk]

If Murphy wants a win, and wants to shut those up that says he won't play games against scholarship schools, real easy answer.

PLAY NORTHEASTERN

We'll go to Cambridge every year, it's no longer of a ride than going to Brookline. We actually get more fans/alumni/students there since its easier to get to and there's more parking.

Preach it, brotha!xthumbsupx That four-game series we had was fun and competitive.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If Murphy wants a win, and wants to shut those up that says he won't play games against scholarship schools, real easy answer.

PLAY NORTHEASTERN

We'll go to Cambridge every year, it's no longer of a ride than going to Brookline. We actually get more fans/alumni/students there since its easier to get to and there's more parking.

But then what will happen when Northeastern joins a scholarship Patriot League? xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I wrote a blog posting on this subject as well as adding more information on William & Mary's and UNH's interest in scheduling Patriot League schools:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/09/threats-from-ivy-league.html

It partially covers what I mentioned on this thread, but it goes more in detail.

[DFW HOYA]

We seem convinced that there is some sort of Ivy League scheduling cabal at work here. Other than the firm commitment to play each other every year (that's 7 games) and the very loose arrangement to at least consider the Patriot League in scheduling the other 3 games, we must face the fact that these are 8 separate schools with their own scheduling problems and desires. We are seeing some murky patterns emerge.


I think that's the real story--the gentlemen's agreement dating back from the days of Derek Bok and Rev. John Brooks was built on the fact that both leagues would complete on (in philosophy if not in reality) a level playing field. What the brahmin at Harvard are subtly suggesting is not that it will move to play NESCAC or Pioneer teams exclusively, but that the five core PL schools (Fordham and Georgetown were never really part of the arrangement) will no longer be the preferred option for Ivy non-conference matchups if scholarships enter the picture. Instead of three games against the PL, for example, a team might only schedule a PL team on one year deals, here and there, as they see fit.

Yes, an Ivy team can and will play the Citadel or William & Mary now and then. It just won't automatically fill in Lehigh, Lafayette, and Colgate every year.

[RichH2]

DFW has hit the mark, PL likely will lose"favored nation" status if it goes scholarship. What LFN , I think was aiming at was the plantation owner mentality by Murphy subtley threatening PL schools if they go scholarship. He would like to keep us as Ivy Lite, convenient yet usually not too threatening opponents .Good prep for IL race.
Howwill this play with PL presidents? Real issue. I hope they understand that tradition to the side the PL schools can stand on their own merits not merely as reflections of the Ivies.

[the last indian]

I think Rich H has it nailed. Murphy's Crimson interview is a shot across the bow meant for the Presidents and influential faculty, who relish in the vague association with the Ivies. The Ivies do not want the PL to go scholarship and how could they rationally have any other position. A weaker, less competitive PL is preferred.
At the same time I have a hard time seeing Princeton, Columbia, or Cornell walking completely away from PL games. There is a long tradition, local interest, and who wants to fly to Butler, Indiana every weekend (or wherever that school is).
I sure hope we (the PL) just go ahead and do what is clearly in our self interest, and let the chips fall where they may. The opportunity to schedule occasional FBS games and collect big checks may not have any appeal to the money rich Ivies, but I am sure a PL athletic department could use some of those pay days.
How much would Colgate fans love to reschedule Syracuse again? Maybe with a few years of schollies it can be more than a dream.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think Rich H has it nailed. Murphy's Crimson interview is a shot across the bow meant for the Presidents and influential faculty, who relish in the vague association with the Ivies. The Ivies do not want the PL to go scholarship and how could they rationally have any other position. A weaker, less competitive PL is preferred.
At the same time I have a hard time seeing Princeton, Columbia, or Cornell walking completely away from PL games. There is a long tradition, local interest, and who wants to fly to Butler, Indiana every weekend (or wherever that school is).
I sure hope we (the PL) just go ahead and do what is clearly in our self interest, and let the chips fall where they may. The opportunity to schedule occasional FBS games and collect big checks may not have any appeal to the money rich Ivies, but I am sure a PL athletic department could use some of those pay days.
How much would Colgate fans love to reschedule Syracuse again? Maybe with a few years of schollies it can be more than a dream.

That's an excellent point. Every PL school a long time ago had associations with (now) FBS schools:

Holy Cross --> BC (used to be their big rivalry game)
Fordham --> BC (NYU was their big rival, also played Army, West Virginia)
Bucknell --> Penn State
Lehigh, Lafayette --> Rutgers, Navy, also played Army, Penn State
Georgetown --> BC, Maryland

While you could argue that the Ivy League shared affiliations with some of these schools as well (Army, Navy), there are others here that clearly were not (West Virginia, Maryland)- but were associated with, oddly enough, PL schools.

If LU or LC were counters, scheduling a game at Rutgers is a no-brainer. I've got to believe that they would be more desirable competition than Howard and Texas Southern in terms of fannies in the seats, institutions, etc.

[the last indian]

Thank you LFN for that. I think I'd rather play Syracuse than Penn State and maybe both are ambitious, but most of our schools had games with Army, Navy, Rutgers, William and Mary, Delaware, etc. It might take time and maybe they are tough games to win, but at least they are in the sports pages, have a fan base, and provide some excitement and the occasional upset. Colgate played Penn State in the 70's, I believe, and it was thrilling to go there. The 'Gate hung in rather well for a half before getting creamed, but it was fun.

[danefan]

The PL can schedule FBS games with or without the scholarships. That's been proven.

[bonarae]

But therein lies the hypocrisy. Every one of these schools you mention are "scholarship" in the traditional sense (and you can add Northeastern, which Harvard has played and beaten in recent memory).

If you're really going to schedule for "ideological purity in scholarships" you'll need to play Division I non-scholarship competition. In that case, you'll have exactly one local option (Marist) and otherwise need to hop on a plane to play OOC games at places like San Diego and Jacksonville, sure, but also Buies Creek, NC and Poughkeepsie, NY. (Unless you schedule D-III NESCAC schools.... or MIT... or RPI...)

More importantly for Harvard, however, is that it makes zero sense to do this at any level. Many D-I schools, and exactly zero D-III schools, cannot compete with Harvard. With their aid package, they make a mockery of a D-III mentality, never mind their facilities for Olympic sports, etc. If you thought Dayton had an unfair advantage over D-III schools, just wait until you look objectively at Harvard.

Harvard should want to schedule the best and play the best, and if there is an alignment with the PL with high-academic institutions, that's still the best match out there for them. They should be finding a way to add Stanford, Duke and Army to their OOC schedules in the next ten years, not looking at San Diego, Amherst and Union (NJ).

Yes, the former should be and it's like a fan's dream come true. But they're looking at the latter though xnonono2x


We seem convinced that there is some sort of Ivy League scheduling cabal at work here. Other than the firm commitment to play each other every year (that's 7 games) and the very loose arrangement to at least consider the Patriot League in scheduling the other 3 games, we must face the fact that these are 8 separate schools with their own scheduling problems and desires. We are seeing some murky patterns emerge:

The Ivy Big 4 (Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Yale), with the possible exception of Princeton who admirably appears to be charting new waters, seem content for the moment with same old, same old. The Ivy Forgotten 4 (Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth) are, with the probable exception of Brown who emerges from oblivion once or twice a decade before settling back into football's dead zone, losing contact with their Ivy brethren and are just looking for someone - anyone - they can beat. Murphy is blowing smoke with his "if they go scholarship, we're outta here" line. If they want to reamain "pure as the driven snow" they're going to have to start scheduling Amherst, Bates, Bowdoin, Wesleyan and Williams. Now, those are games the alumni would love to see.

Tsk tsk tsk. True. There are 8 schools with their own desires and wishes. Now only if they were united, they would schedule the schools on our wish list (i.e. Appalachian State, Tulane, etc.) but it's also wishful thinking at best. xsmhx


Back in the Stone Age, Harvard actually played those schools -- and trounced them regularly. Those series ended generations ago, and for good reason. I don't care about watching Stanford or Northwestern. Harvard should play the most competitive OOC schedule available within FCS. That's the point that Murphy et al. just don't seem to get. Amherst, Bates and the rest are great colleges, but I wouldn't pay to watch them play football.

Good point. Harvard should play on a level of scheduling competitive with UNH, McNeese, App St., etc. (i.e. playing FBS games periodically)


I think that's the real story--the gentlemen's agreement dating back from the days of Derek Bok and Rev. John Brooks was built on the fact that both leagues would complete on (in philosophy if not in reality) a level playing field. What the brahmin at Harvard are subtly suggesting is not that it will move to play NESCAC or Pioneer teams exclusively, but that the five core PL schools (Fordham and Georgetown were never really part of the arrangement) will no longer be the preferred option for Ivy non-conference matchups if scholarships enter the picture. Instead of three games against the PL, for example, a team might only schedule a PL team on one year deals, here and there, as they see fit.

Yes, an Ivy team can and will play the Citadel or William & Mary now and then. It just won't automatically fill in Lehigh, Lafayette, and Colgate every year.

xconfusedx I hope in our lifetime, we still play the PL teams periodically. But they can and should explore new FCS teams, teams that playing them should prove that they can belong in the polls (i.e. playing McNeese, Appalachian State, Montana, etc).


I think Rich H has it nailed. Murphy's Crimson interview is a shot across the bow meant for the Presidents and influential faculty, who relish in the vague association with the Ivies. The Ivies do not want the PL to go scholarship and how could they rationally have any other position. A weaker, less competitive PL is preferred.
At the same time I have a hard time seeing Princeton, Columbia, or Cornell walking completely away from PL games. There is a long tradition, local interest, and who wants to fly to Butler, Indiana every weekend (or wherever that school is).
I sure hope we (the PL) just go ahead and do what is clearly in our self interest, and let the chips fall where they may. The opportunity to schedule occasional FBS games and collect big checks may not have any appeal to the money rich Ivies, but I am sure a PL athletic department could use some of those pay days.
How much would Colgate fans love to reschedule Syracuse again? Maybe with a few years of schollies it can be more than a dream.

Though this post has PL bias, I really wish the IL can allow us to schedule FBS teams. But it's wishful thinking at best. Even though it can be done, they aren't doing it. xbawlingx

[RichH2]

Dane,

Of coursePL "can"schedule FBS schools, the issue is they dont always want to schedule us. I think FBS are allowed 1 non counter. Sort of limits our options until we get up to the rquired # of equivalencies or merit aid

[danefan]

Dane,

Of coursePL "can"schedule FBS schools, the issue is they dont always want to schedule us. I think FBS are allowed 1 non counter. Sort of limits our options until we get up to the rquired # of equivalencies or merit aid

Take a look at how many Big East teams have 2 FCS games. Those second games are non-counters. Don't you think Rutgers would rather play Colgate then Howard or Texas Southern?

Albany has Cincy on the 2011 schedule and won't even be close to being a "counter".

Numerous teams that most think are "counters" are not. Case-in-point - Georgia Southern plays North Carolina this year and Georgia last year. GSU has been at between 53-56 scholarships for the last 3 years. Hence not a counter.

IMO's the PL's not scheduling FBS games is nothing more than the AD's inability or desire to schedule these games. It has nothing to do with equivalency level.

Its an excuse.

[ngineer]

Take a look at how many Big East teams have 2 FCS games. Those second games are non-counters. Don't you think Rutgers would rather play Colgate then Howard or Texas Southern?

Albany has Cincy on the 2011 schedule and won't even be close to being a "counter".

Numerous teams that most think are "counters" are not. Case-in-point - Georgia Southern plays North Carolina this year and Georgia last year. GSU has been at between 53-56 scholarships for the last 3 years. Hence not a counter.

IMO's the PL's not scheduling FBS games is nothing more than the AD's inability or desire to schedule these games. It has nothing to do with equivalency level.

Its an excuse.

You are wrong on your assumption. We have tried to schedule several FBS schools over the years and have been rebuffed. UConn was our last one back in 2005, and we gave them a tough game. Army has turned down our overtures for years...because we can beat them and they have nothing to gain but embarrassment.

[crusader11]

It is far from excuse dane. Bring scholarships to the PL, and you will see Uconn, BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, etc. on the schedules.

[Seawolf97]

I have watched this thread with interest since we are in the miffle of a 4 year deal with Brown and the series is now tied at 1-1. I dont know if it will be extended beyond 2011 but I would like to see it go on. It was great game last Saturday with the outcome not decided until the final 3.4 seconds.
So if not Brown after 2011 why not one of the New York Ivies Columbia or Cornell or both?
Even Yale could take the ferry across the sound for a home and away series. These are quality programs and last Saturday proved that so let them play. I cant imagine a D-1 AD or coach happy to play down ( no smack intended on anyone) when so many other programs are out their.

[danefan]

Ok guys, then explain why other non-counter schools are finding their way onto FBS schedules?

Sorry - doesn't jive.

And I'm not talking about regional FBS games per se because every team wants to play those games. If the PL AD's really wanted to schedule FBS games, they'd find them.

[TheValleyRaider]

And I'm not talking about regional FBS games per se because every team wants to play those games. If the PL AD's really wanted to schedule FBS games, they'd find them.

I think that's the disconnect

PL ADs want FBS games, but they want specific FBS games, games that can be sold as either historic rivals or good academic opponents. The pool becomes significantly limited at that point, especially since then there are so many potential regional opponents. In a sense, you're both right. FBS games can be had, just not the ones PL schools might want (UConn, Syracuse, Army, Rutgers)

Although, Colgate is, if I'm not mistaken, scheduled to play Air Force in 2013...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL can schedule FBS games with or without the scholarships. That's been proven.

That's misleading. Before 2006, FBS schools could schedule one game against a "non-FBS Division I" school and have it count towards the bowls. Their win over Lehigh "counted". It was only after 2006 when the idea that an average 56.5 scholarships only would "count" for bowls and it could be done every year.

Since 2006, no PL school has played an FBS team, though they are on Colgate and Fordham's OOC schedules.

Finally, we forget that there needs to be a gap in the schedule, too, and parties that are willing to move. Ivy schedules are set years in advance and they don't have the benefit of a bye week, so Colgate never really had an option to fill in the game that Texas Southern is playing Rutgers - yes, it was a late fill-in - since they'd have to break their long-standing commitment to Princeton. Good thing, too, since they now get a national game on Thursday out of the deal.

I even question your assertion that Albany won't be close to being a counter in 2011. If they're at 40-45 now and bring in another full scholly class, they'll be at 60.

[Husky Alum]

Preach it, brotha!xthumbsupx That four-game series we had was fun and competitive.

It was, but it was jinxed. I think every game we played in that series was either windy, rainy, or some combination. I don't think the sun saw the field when NU played Harvard.

There was one game that Al and Tipper Gore were at, and I remember seeing them huddled under an umbrella to stay dry.

We offered Harvard a 5-6 year extension on the deal, with all of the games in Cambridge, with one caveat (as I've posted), that if we ever built an on campus stadium, we wanted to open with Harvard.

We were rebuked.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

[/U][/B]

You are wrong on your assumption. We have tried to schedule several FBS schools over the years and have been rebuffed. UConn was our last one back in 2005, and we gave them a tough game. Army has turned down our overtures for years...because we can beat them and they have nothing to gain but embarrassment.

To that I'd say try a little harder....UNH seems to be able to get a game every year.

[bonarae]

That's misleading. Before 2006, FBS schools could schedule one game against a "non-FBS Division I" school and have it count towards the bowls. Their win over Lehigh "counted". It was only after 2006 when the idea that an average 56.5 scholarships only would "count" for bowls and it could be done every year.

Since 2006, no PL school has played an FBS team, though they are on Colgate and Fordham's OOC schedules.

Finally, we forget that there needs to be a gap in the schedule, too, and parties that are willing to move. Ivy schedules are set years in advance and they don't have the benefit of a bye week, so Colgate never really had an option to fill in the game that Texas Southern is playing Rutgers - yes, it was a late fill-in - since they'd have to break their long-standing commitment to Princeton. Good thing, too, since they now get a national game on Thursday out of the deal.

I even question your assertion that Albany won't be close to being a counter in 2011. If they're at 40-45 now and bring in another full scholly class, they'll be at 60.

As I have read in an article posted in another thread here, there's no way the Ivies can schedule an FBS. So we're really stuck. xnonono2x xbawlingx

Before 2006? I am not really sure if that "rule" (60 scholarships minimum) stood at that time.

[danefan]

That's misleading. Before 2006, FBS schools could schedule one game against a "non-FBS Division I" school and have it count towards the bowls. Their win over Lehigh "counted". It was only after 2006 when the idea that an average 56.5 scholarships only would "count" for bowls and it could be done every year.

Since 2006, no PL school has played an FBS team, though they are on Colgate and Fordham's OOC schedules.

Finally, we forget that there needs to be a gap in the schedule, too, and parties that are willing to move. Ivy schedules are set years in advance and they don't have the benefit of a bye week, so Colgate never really had an option to fill in the game that Texas Southern is playing Rutgers - yes, it was a late fill-in - since they'd have to break their long-standing commitment to Princeton. Good thing, too, since they now get a national game on Thursday out of the deal.

I even question your assertion that Albany won't be close to being a counter in 2011. If they're at 40-45 now and bring in another full scholly class, they'll be at 60.


Albany has 32 scholarships this year and can only add 2 per year until the NEC max of 40. In 2011 they'll be at 36.

[danefan]

I think that's the disconnect

PL ADs want FBS games, but they want specific FBS games, games that can be sold as either historic rivals or good academic opponents. The pool becomes significantly limited at that point, especially since then there are so many potential regional opponents. In a sense, you're both right. FBS games can be had, just not the ones PL schools might want (UConn, Syracuse, Army, Rutgers)

Although, Colgate is, if I'm not mistaken, scheduled to play Air Force in 2013...

Exactly. That's my point. PL fans keep saying "we want to play FBS teams so we need to go scholarships". Thats simply not true.

And even if the PL does go scholarship there's no guarantee regional historic rivals will be willing to schedule you then either. xpeacex

[UAalum72]

Albany has 32 scholarships this year and can only add 2 per year until the NEC max of 40. In 2011 they'll be at 36.
The NEC contract expires after the 2010 season. IF it's not renewed, Albany could add a lot of scholarships for the 2011 season. Of course that'd be too late to be a counter, and the new ones would all be freshmen or transfers/jucos who haven't played together yet.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Exactly. That's my point. PL fans keep saying "we want to play FBS teams so we need to go scholarships". Thats simply not true.

And even if the PL does go scholarship there's no guarantee regional historic rivals will be willing to schedule you then either. xpeacex

Come on, though. Scheduling FBS teams is much, much, easier if you are a counter. It's true that it's not a guarantee - Army consistently turned Lehigh down even before we might be considered a "counter". But the chances go way, way up that it can happen. An crusader11 is right: you'll definitely see PL teams on FBS schedules if conventional scholarships become a reality.

[Big Al]

Before 2006, schollys didn't matter but FBS teams could only count a win over an FCS team once every four years. Now, they can count one FCS win every year but it must be over a school with at least 57.5 scholarships.

[danefan]

Come on, though. Scheduling FBS teams is much, much, easier if you are a counter. It's true that it's not a guarantee - Army consistently turned Lehigh down even before we might be considered a "counter". But the chances go way, way up that it can happen. An crusader11 is right: you'll definitely see PL teams on FBS schedules if conventional scholarships become a reality.

It will definitely be easier but I don't think it will be so much easier to get the regional FBS games that the PL presidents will be willing to add scholarships just because of that.

That's all I'm saying.

[Go...gate]

Thank you LFN for that. I think I'd rather play Syracuse than Penn State and maybe both are ambitious, but most of our schools had games with Army, Navy, Rutgers, William and Mary, Delaware, etc. It might take time and maybe they are tough games to win, but at least they are in the sports pages, have a fan base, and provide some excitement and the occasional upset. Colgate played Penn State in the 70's, I believe, and it was thrilling to go there. The 'Gate hung in rather well for a half before getting creamed, but it was fun.

1980. We lost 54-10, but it was competitive for a while. We tied defending Division I-AA Finalist Lehigh the following week and ended our season at 5-4-1. Some other opponents that year were Rutgers, Lafayette, Connecticut, Columbia, Bucknell, Holy Cross, Princeton and Cornell.

[the last indian]

Recently Syracuse has not been as good as they were back then, UConn and Rutgers are definitely better. The others we play now. So I am not suggesting that we would be competitive today or even tomorrow. It will take a few years with scholarships to build up the program. Our experience in other sports is that we get a better student as well. That seems like a win-win to me.

[RichH2]

First we have to play the games this year. Unfortunately , Muphy's comments probably indicative of Ivy perspective but will be irrelevant to our Pres's decision in 2010 or earlier. Kind of torn , I cannot and will not root against any PL team OOC, but if we do too well or at least show competitiveness will they conclude that merit aid unnecessary? That the PL is just fine the way it is and we can do without Fordham and their silly scholarships? Ah well, I picked a PL sweep this week. Time to go root.

[bkrownd]

As I have read in an article posted in another thread here, there's no way the Ivies can schedule an FBS. So we're really stuck. xnonono2x xbawlingx

Funny how they don't have scheduling restrictions in other sports - just football. They're particularly active in college hockey which hardly operates within the traditional "student athelete" model.

[bonarae]

Funny how they don't have scheduling restrictions in other sports - just football. They're particularly active in college hockey which hardly operates within the traditional "student athelete" model.

However, we play a lesser amount of games in all sports each season - compare that to Stanford, UCLA, etc. In basketball, we play 28, they play 30+ (regular season games only); in baseball, we play 39 or 40 (and majority of these, especially the Ivy games, are one- or two-day doubleheaders), they play a full load of 56 (it's the maximum limit in baseball). IMHO football was the first to start this trend of playing lesser games in the Ivies.

[bkrownd]

It's still a step up from a NESCAC schedule. ;) Pray that it remains that way! xsmhx

[Digby]

Oh, the Poor Ivies! With their $20 billion endowments, their international names and their extremely generous aid policies.
Oh woe is me! Poor Little Harvard wails!
Somehow I think they will still have some advantages.
What a bunch of babies!

[Pard4Life]

Doubt the PL teams will be playing any non-regional FCS teams any time soon, or the near future. They have cut budgets and reduced staff given declining endowments. Travel to Montana or Illinois St would be a major expense. The only possible way would be if we schedule FBS games for the paycheck, and even then the athletics department would want to bankroll the money, not spend it on a football game.

Murphy needs to look in the mirror. Even when the PL gains schollies, an elite Ivy football program will still win head to head PL-IL recruiting battles. Maybe the shift will be from 100-0 (IL-PL) to 80-20, but our scholarships are trying to capture the NEC and CAA market. Plus his program already has "scholarships" as we all know. Reading between the lines, if they want to schedule other opponnts, so be it, they can. I think it is more of a PL problem that we rely on the Ivies for games. We need them
more that they need us.