The PL: A Two-Team Race?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It was an interesting set of results this weekend.

The Good:

* Lafayette lost to Liberty, but hung tough and had a chance to win at the end
* Holy Cross had to play a near-perfect game to beat Harvard, and did so
* Colgate suffered an early challenge to Dartmouth, but put them away comfortably

The Bad & Ugly:

* Hoyas haven't scored an offensive TD in three games, losing 28-10 to Yale
* Fordham turns over ball 4 times, the final INT to seal the loss to Columbia 40-28
* Bucknell got shellacked 33-9 by Cornell and has scored 2 offensive TDs in 2 games

Holy Cross justified their Top 25 ranking for certain, while Colgate is also making a strong pitch for Top 25 inclusion. In the early going, they have established themselves as the class of the league.

But aren't the signs for the rest of the league ominous? While the jury is still out on Lafayette (win against G'Town; loss against a potentially good Liberty team), the rest of the league only has 1 OOC win between them: the crazy Bucknell win over Robert Morris with two interception returns for TDs.

One team hasn't scored an offensive TD. Another has averaged giving up 40.5 points per game. And a third was pummeled by a consensus lower-echelon team in the Ivy and beat by a consensus lower-echelon team in the NEC.

Is this probably going to be a two-team race?

[colgate13]

Is this probably going to be a two-team race?

Yes.
xthumbsupx
:p

[ngineer]

No. Too early yet to discount Lehigh and Lafayette. Colgate played the worst IL team. I agree HC has stamped themselves as the 'team to beat' but had they dominated Harvard, then I would agree that they would be 'odds on favorites' in the PL. That did not happen. We were very close to beating Harvard at Harvard last year. Lafayette, despite a lousy first half, hung tough against a good ball club. Curley showed some nice arm and I think should have been unleashed sooner in the game. LC's 'stable' of RBs also gives them nice depth. Special teams is a huge surprise (negative) at the moment. Rodriquez may have acquired Leo disease from last year.
Lehigh will have to show something this week against Princeton and Lafayette can't afford a letdown with Penn coming to town. Both opponents have very good athletes. Lehigh has been missing half of its starting defense the last two games and should have everyone back, maybe evern Pierce, for Princeton. This would include Brown, Winnett (up front) and Brickner, Taylor and Pierce at LB. All missed alot or did not play at Villanova.

I do think that Georgetown, Bucknell and Fordham have shown themselves not to 'up' for a championship challenge, although I dare say BU and FU have enough players to upset someone if they're not taken seriously.

[DFW HOYA]

The Bad & Ugly:

* Hoyas haven't scored an offensive TD in three games, losing 28-10 to Yale


In three games, Georgetown is averaging 26 yards a game rushing.

[Fordham]

Kudos to 'gate and HC, guys. sounds like Laffy hung tough as well.

I'll give my update at a later time but I wouldn't be shocked if we go 0-fer after seeing our D these last two games. We may have the worst D in FCS. Incredible thought too, since we have some great athletes out there and many have alot of experience. Falls back on coaching.

Throw into it the number of penalties and turnovers we had and it's the sign of an incredibly undisciplined squad.

[breezy]

Still too early. HC and Colgate have shown they are both for real, but Lehigh and Lafayette cannot be counted out yet. Fordham has potential but lots of folks are questioning its "D." Bucknell can always pull an upset with its running game, but has not shown much thus far. Georgetown already has 2 PL losses, and is probably done.

[Pard4Life]

Three team race: Lafayette, HC and Colgate. No doubt the Pards are in it, LFN. Lehigh is not going anywhere this season unless they make a surge in the second half.

[RichH2]

LU next 4 weeks will set season in PL Coen believes all are winnable. Maybe so but team must show that the close losses of the last 2 years can be wins. Too many 4th period fades. No basis to decide yet Princeton will be some clue as to team makeup. Can they turn around a close loss from last yr?

FU my pick as darkhorse has no D at all. Went to game, lots of good athletes on D but they reminded me of a Chinese fire drill. Lots of running around but no direction. O puts up lots of yds but lots of errors

Gate even w/o Eachus tough solid team again.

HC still no running attack but Dom makes up for a lot. Got to be favorite.

LC solidgame vs schollie program, as with LU too early to tell but they will hang tough with all.

BU a run O that cannot run. Doomed
GU same issue but worse yet again

OOC does not look real good again for this season

[Go...gate]

Yes.
xthumbsupx
:p

WELCOME BACK 13!!!

[carney2]

Yes.
xthumbsupx
:p

Imposter! 13 sleeps with the fishes.

[carney2]

Only 3 things are certain so far:

Georgetown may be worse than ever.

If Bucknell is "improved," my micrometer can't measure it.

The Fordham "resurgence" was either a dream or a mirage.

We are, at the moment, down to a 4 team race, not two. Now, if you want to set some odds on those 4 you might have something.

[Go...gate]

Imposter! 13 sleeps with the fishes.

He died? Really?

[DFW HOYA]

Only 3 things are certain so far:
Georgetown may be worse than ever.


Any reason you see for this?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It may be too early to tell if LU and LC are really "out of it", I acknowledge this. But consider the following:

* Lehigh is 0-2, Lafayette is 1-1. The one win came against Georgetown.
* Both defenses gave up whopping numbers of yards in all losses.
* The amount of points scored by both teams in 3 losses: 21, 17, 13 points.

If LU and LC are really still "in it", they both have to show some real improvement over Princeton and Penn respectively with wins and even better numbers. At least Colgate and HC have proven something against decent NEC, Ivy and Big South schools (well, Stony Brook is debatable).

If you just look at record, LU and LC contribute a 1-3 record combined with a win over Georgetown. Not good.

[RichH2]

certainly not good but not a basis for any sort of prediction on either team. Week 1LU caught napping vs amuch quicker team than any anticipated and qb horrible. Nova game marked improvement vs superb team. Noone inPL has set themselves apart from the rest in the top 4 by any large degree. HC is a 1 trick pony otherwise very avg. Randolph can however win some games all alone. None of the other teams have that. Gate has the best OL and coach with unspectacular but fairly solid D. LC still has solid D with an adequate qb and a stable of rbs. LU should have 2nd best qb and OL with best D in PL. This could go to last weekend

[Go...gate]

Kudos to 'gate and HC, guys. sounds like Laffy hung tough as well.

I'll give my update at a later time but I wouldn't be shocked if we go 0-fer after seeing our D these last two games. We may have the worst D in FCS. Incredible thought too, since we have some great athletes out there and many have alot of experience. Falls back on coaching.

Throw into it the number of penalties and turnovers we had and it's the sign of an incredibly undisciplined squad.

You guys have some pretty good coaches. You have a lot of youngsters on D?

[crusader11]

certainly not good but not a basis for any sort of prediction on either team. Week 1LU caught napping vs amuch quicker team than any anticipated and qb horrible. Nova game marked improvement vs superb team. Noone inPL has set themselves apart from the rest in the top 4 by any large degree. HC is a 1 trick pony otherwise very avg. Randolph can however win some games all alone. None of the other teams have that. Gate has the best OL and coach with unspectacular but fairly solid D. LC still has solid D with an adequate qb and a stable of rbs. LU should have 2nd best qb and OL with best D in PL. This could go to last weekend

A one trick pony that I have yet to seen be stopped this year. And HC is 4th of 7 teams in rushing yards per game, so I wouldn't exactly say they are an exclusive passing team. Getting 129 yards per game on the ground isn't too shabby (it's only 10 yards behind Lafayette who is second in the league in rushing).

[carney2]

Any reason you see for this?

OK "D," but no "O." Last year I was impressed with Brady as a freshman QB. He seems to have made a sizable retrograde movement. The O-line is trademark Georgetown - small and untalented, and (possibly as a result) the running game is non-existent. I'm not sure it would make any difference, but Houghton is a decent back who seems to be spending his final year running back kicks and watching far too many offensive plays from the sidelines. He was high impact on kick returns vs. Lafayette and invisible elsewhere. Why wouldn't you stand on your head to get the ball in this guy's hands more often?

This is a key week for this team. I'm not saying they have to win, but they certainly must be competitive. You can call Howard a scholarship program and put them on a pedestal if you like, but they are pretty much the bottom of that scholarship barrel. If the Hoyas can't pick on somebody their own size with Howard , they're going to have a difficult time finding someone to pick on.

[carney2]

It may be too early to tell if LU and LC are really "out of it", I acknowledge this. But consider the following:

* Lehigh is 0-2, Lafayette is 1-1. The one win came against Georgetown.
* Both defenses gave up whopping numbers of yards in all losses.
* The amount of points scored by both teams in 3 losses: 21, 17, 13 points.

If LU and LC are really still "in it", they both have to show some real improvement over Princeton and Penn respectively with wins and even better numbers. At least Colgate and HC have proven something against decent NEC, Ivy and Big South schools (well, Stony Brook is debatable).

If you just look at record, LU and LC contribute a 1-3 record combined with a win over Georgetown. Not good.

C'mon, LFN, Colgate and the Cross have stitched together 3-0s by playing the halt and the lame. They have what, 1 1/2 quality wins between them? Even Harvard, which is the 1.0, was playing its 1st game, while HC was on the field for the 3rd time. Lafayette and Lehigh are each 0-2, but have played 2 1/2 quality teams, with only one cupcake between them. Villanova for certain, and Liberty I'm guessing, are at least Harvard-esque in quality. Line up some cupcakes for L&L and I'm betting they'd chow down too.

As for the Ivy foes this weekend, I disagree that both need to win to disprove your rash statements. Lehigh may be further up that creek than Lafayette because Princeton looks, at this point, a bit more like a pussy cat than a Tiger. Penn, on the other hand, has been picked as the primary challenger to Harvard in the Ivy League. I don't know the details, but they held top 5 Villanova to 14 points - 7 after the opening kickoff return for a TD. I expect Lafayette to enter the game as the underdog - and we all know how the Pards do against the Ivys (and it doesn't ever mean diddly when the PL season starts).

It's a 4 team race. I'll go out on a limb and handicap this thing:

Holy Cross - 35%
Colgate - 30%
Lafayette - 25%
Lehigh - 10%

That totals 100%. Oh yeah, a note to RichH, whose opinions I value. If the Squawks have a good "D," it is no better than no. 2 in the League. That one you can take to the bank.

Your initial statement in the title of this thread got my attention. The crapola that you dished out above as "journalism" really honked me.

[TheValleyRaider]

C'mon, LFN, Colgate and the Cross have stitched together 3-0s by playing the halt and the lame. They have what, 1 1/2 quality wins between them? Even Harvard, which is the 1.0, was playing its 1st game, while HC was on the field for the 3rd time. Lafayette and Lehigh are each 0-2, but have played 2 1/2 quality teams, with only one cupcake between them. Villanova for certain, and Liberty I'm guessing, are at least Harvard-esque in quality. Line up some cupcakes for L&L and I'm betting they'd chow down too.

While I should be careful about labelling you a defender of Lehigh, let's at least be fair and mention that the Hawks didn't just lose to 2 decent opponents, but looked bad in doing so. Would they have looked better playing Monmouth or Stony Brook? Probably, but let's not just let the quality of opposition completely dictate our perception

I will agree though that it is way too early for this discussion. I can see why you'd pick these two at this point, but there's still plenty of room out there for either to trip up prior to or after their meeting in Worcester. Lafayette was right there at the end of the race last year, who's to say they can't finish the job this year? Who's to say the bye doesn't right Lehigh's ship (they do get Cross at home)? I'd like to see some more League games under everyone's belt before I start declaring teams in and out xtwocentsx

[RichH2]

We were missing 4 starters on D vs Nova in the front 7.Carney not knocking LC D which is as usual very good. Just think once we get all guys in we will be best. Agree that both losses were bad. Nova not surprising CCSU was just bad Team completely unready and bad. That game is the foundation for my underlying pessimism for this year. Nova just outclassed usbut O at least improved D was OK but w/o key starters on DL and LB they could not stop scrambles.

Cross if you read postis still favorite because of Dom. He enables that O and can win games all by himself. Running attack is built on Dom. If he is out O slides.Much like us with Stambaugh.

[carney2]

While I should be careful about labelling you a defender of Lehigh, let's at least be fair and mention that the Hawks didn't just lose to 2 decent opponents, but looked bad in doing so. Would they have looked better playing Monmouth or Stony Brook? Probably, but let's not just let the quality of opposition completely dictate our perception

Defender of the Squawks? Why not. And you've hit on the reason that the ChickenHeads only received a 10% rating in my little handicapping exercise. They have thrashed around aimlessly in the deep end of the pool. They have more to win or lose than any team in the League this week. It's put up or shut up time at Goodman.

[aceinthehole]

We were missing 4 starters on D vs Nova in the front 7.Carney not knocking LC D which is as usual very good. Just think once we get all guys in we will be best. Agree that both losses were bad. Nova not surprising CCSU was just bad Team completely unready and bad. That game is the foundation for my underlying pessimism for this year. Nova just outclassed usbut O at least improved D was OK but w/o key starters on DL and LB they could not stop scrambles.

Cross if you read postis still favorite because of Dom. He enables that O and can win games all by himself. Running attack is built on Dom. If he is out O slides.Much like us with Stambaugh.

Get a grip. CCSU is a very, very good team. After dominating Lehigh, the Blue Devils went down to #5 W&M and put 14 points on the board while committing 2 turnovers. Were were able to move the ball well, considering the strenght of the opponent. Our Defense was unable to really stop a much bigger, faster, and talented Tribe offense.

After CCSU takes care of Columbia this week (something Fordham couldn't do), we'll be 2- heading into NEC play, with a 19-point loss to a top-5 team. With the possible exception of Holy Crosss, CCSU is a better team the than the entire PL.

[carney2]

We were missing 4 starters on D vs Nova in the front 7.Carney not knocking LC D which is as usual very good. Just think once we get all guys in we will be best.

Yeah, yeah. Would prefer to hash this out over a burger and brewskies at the Ho, but...

DL: Poulson and Dell are possibly the best tandem of inside DLs ever on College Hill.

LB: Leggiero is as good as anyone - including Cohen - that Chickenville can put out there, and, as a group, they are no worse than the Squawks

DB: Once this sophomore laden group learns how not to play soft coverage like they did vs. Liberty, they will be a formidable group.

With Lafayette's schedule getting more difficult while the Featherbrains' gets less, the numbers may not bear me out when I say Best defense in the Patriot League. [I'm searching for the emoticom where I stick my tongue out at you. Can't find it, so you'll have to use your imagination.]

[breezy]

To aceinthehole --

Just a couple of points --

1. I think RichH2 was saying that Lehigh's performance against CCSU was bad, not that CCSU is a bad team.

2. I think you have forgotten Colgate as another PL team (besides HC) that is arguably better than CCSU.

CCSU has certainly earned respect, but there is still a long season to go. I'll be checking to see how you do against Columbia this week.

[Franks Tanks]

Get a grip. CCSU is a very, very good team. After dominating Lehigh, the Blue Devils went down to #5 W&M and put 14 points on the board while committing 2 turnovers. Were were able to move the ball well, considering the strenght of the opponent. Our Defense was unable to really stop a much bigger, faster, and talented Tribe offense.

After CCSU takes care of Columbia this week (something Fordham couldn't do), we'll be 2- heading into NEC play, with a 19-point loss to a top-5 team. With the possible exception of Holy Crosss, CCSU is a better team the than the entire PL.


xlolx Saying that CCSU is better that the entire PL is a baseless comment. You can say you are better than Lehigh, and most likely G-town and Bucknell and Fordham. However, that is where is end as you have no comparison.

[ngineer]

I think LFN is sandbagging...;):D

[Fordham]

It's amazing to me how much less interesting everyone's posts are in here when we're sucking.

[letsgopards04]

It may be too early to tell if LU and LC are really "out of it", I acknowledge this. But consider the following:

* Lehigh is 0-2, Lafayette is 1-1. The one win came against Georgetown.
* Both defenses gave up whopping numbers of yards in all losses.
* The amount of points scored by both teams in 3 losses: 21, 17, 13 points.

If LU and LC are really still "in it", they both have to show some real improvement over Princeton and Penn respectively with wins and even better numbers. At least Colgate and HC have proven something against decent NEC, Ivy and Big South schools (well, Stony Brook is debatable).

If you just look at record, LU and LC contribute a 1-3 record combined with a win over Georgetown. Not good.


I think the fact that they kept Liberty's scoring in check says that Lafayette when not playing hired guns should be just fine. Like said previously, we need to Curley open it up from the get-go.

[FUrams7]

HC the favorite . Colgate #2. I wouldnt write off Fordham just yet. its true, we've looked sloppy. we have 8 turnovers in 2 games. if we cut that out, the offense can be outright explosive. we outgained Columbia by 180 total yards. if Colgate beats us this wknd.. then ill go away quietly.. lol.. but until then ill hold out hope :)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh has to show the ability to improve under Coen for me to say they're contenders at this point. They've never overachieved with him as a coach so to think things are going to improve at this point is a reach. Going out and laying the wood on Princeton would point them in the right direction. However, at this point it's hard to imagine that happening.

[Pard94]

Puhlease LFN. Once again your inability to acknowledge the fact that Lafayette might just be doing better than Lehigh (albiet at a very early stage) staggers me. A loss to #24 Liberty and a loss to CCSU does not equal out in the wash. Lafayette played a ranked team very tough. No rational person thought that Lafayette was going to go undefeated and just about everybody recognized that Liberty was one of the teams to whom we were very likely going to lose. We all hoped for victory but I doubt anybody was really surprised we lost. Just as you guys hoped like hell to beat Nova but were probably not too surprised by the loss. It didn't seem like any Lehigh fan panicked as a result of that loss (rightfully so). There was nobody suggesting that you were somehow relegated to the 2nd tier becuase you lost to a nationally ranked team. Same goes for Lafayette against Liberty. Now...your loss to CCSU...that's another matter.

Another way of putting it. Lafayette is exactly where we realistically expected to be at this point. Lehigh...not so much. If you want to put your team's expectations in the dust bin at this point that's your perogative. Lafayette still has as much chance to win this league AND have a respectable showing out of conference as anybody based on the first two weeks. I believe you do a good job reporting on Lehigh and the PL in general....but when Lafayette enters the picture your objectiveness very blatantly exits.

[Pards Rule]

Wow..this is getting good! Damn cant find a popcorn eating icon - we need one fo' so'

[crusader11]

Well at least one thing appears to be certain: Holy Cross is the consensus favorite as of now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Good:

* Lafayette lost to Liberty, but hung tough and had a chance to win at the end

...

But aren't the signs for the rest of the league ominous? While the jury is still out on Lafayette (win against G'Town; loss against a potentially good Liberty team), the rest of the league only has 1 OOC win between them: the crazy Bucknell win over Robert Morris with two interception returns for TDs.

One team hasn't scored an offensive TD. Another has averaged giving up 40.5 points per game. And a third was pummeled by a consensus lower-echelon team in the Ivy and beat by a consensus lower-echelon team in the NEC.


It may be too early to tell if LU and LC are really "out of it", I acknowledge this. ....


C'mon, LFN, Colgate and the Cross have stitched together 3-0s by playing the halt and the lame. They have what, 1 1/2 quality wins between them? Even Harvard, which is the 1.0, was playing its 1st game, while HC was on the field for the 3rd time. Lafayette and Lehigh are each 0-2, but have played 2 1/2 quality teams, with only one cupcake between them. Villanova for certain, and Liberty I'm guessing, are at least Harvard-esque in quality. Line up some cupcakes for L&L and I'm betting they'd chow down too.

...

Your initial statement in the title of this thread got my attention. The crapola that you dished out above as "journalism" really honked me.

What crapola?

Are you saying a 1-2 start with a win over Georgetown would be an adequate basis for saying you're in the PL title hunt with at least one, and probably two, undefeated teams going into Week 5? It's clear you're underestimating the NEC and Big South if that's the case.

While I freely throw out HC's demolition of 0-3 Sacred Heart as not a "quality win" (while the Pioneers' utter collapse has mystified me a little), Colgate's wins over Monmouth (RB David Sinisi is still good) and Stony Brook (defeaters of last year's Ivy League co-champions Brown last week) are nothing at all to sneeze at. Do you think either of these games would have been gimmes for Lafayette or Lehigh? I sure don't.

As for CCSU, for me the jury is still out. They beat a Lehigh team Week One by surviving a huge number of mistakes but in the end successfully playing their sort of game (and Lehigh didn't, or couldn't, prevent it). The next week, in a game where the Blue Devils were thrown out of their comfort zone (against a Top 25 team, granted), they couldn't hang. No question CCSU will win games this year, but it's still hard to adequately judge them.

****

Let me be clear about something: I certainly don't think things are unsalvagable for Lafayette with losses against two top teams (same with Lehigh, who if they beat Princeton next weekend would have the same 1-2 record). But if Lehigh gets a win over a winless team next weekend and has two "tough losses", I'm still thinking they are a step behind Holy Cross (win over a Top 25 team) and Colgate (wins over two "scholarship schools").

If Lafayette comes out and beats Penn - all of a sudden they're in the thick of the race.

That's what I'm saying. This is an important game for Lafayette to show that they belong side-by-side with HC and Colgate. It's also an important game for Lehigh to show that they don't belong with Georgetown, Bucknell, and maybe Fordham.

And it's important for the league to show that they're more than just HC and Colgate, too. You can't seriously believe a 1-7 OOC record from LU, LC, BU, FU and G'Town, can reflect well on the league?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Puhlease LFN. Once again your inability to acknowledge the fact that Lafayette might just be doing better than Lehigh (albiet at a very early stage) staggers me. A loss to #24 Liberty and a loss to CCSU does not equal out in the wash. Lafayette played a ranked team very tough. No rational person thought that Lafayette was going to go undefeated and just about everybody recognized that Liberty was one of the teams to whom we were very likely going to lose. We all hoped for victory but I doubt anybody was really surprised we lost. Just as you guys hoped like hell to beat Nova but were probably not too surprised by the loss. It didn't seem like any Lehigh fan panicked as a result of that loss (rightfully so). There was nobody suggesting that you were somehow relegated to the 2nd tier becuase you lost to a nationally ranked team. Same goes for Lafayette against Liberty. Now...your loss to CCSU...that's another matter.

Another way of putting it. Lafayette is exactly where we realistically expected to be at this point. Lehigh...not so much. If you want to put your team's expectations in the dust bin at this point that's your perogative. Lafayette still has as much chance to win this league AND have a respectable showing out of conference as anybody based on the first two weeks. I believe you do a good job reporting on Lehigh and the PL in general....but when Lafayette enters the picture your objectiveness very blatantly exits.


The problem with Lehigh is not really talent imo, it's coaching. The measure of a great coach imo is how much he can get out of his team and in 3 years on south mountain Coen has gotten very little. Good coaches can take inferior talent and make them rise up to the challenge and defeat a superior opponent. Coen has never had any of his teams do that. I was one of those who believed this year was going to be different and Coen was going to get them to really play at or maybe even above their potential finally. At this point i think it's going to be same old same old. I expect to see time outs wasted on Saturday, mental mistakes and questionable play calling. There's no reason to think defferently at this point. Like Einstien said, "doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results is the deffinition of insanity".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lafayette is exactly where we realistically expected to be at this point. Lehigh...not so much. If you want to put your team's expectations in the dust bin at this point that's your perogative.

Fair enough. And no, I'm not willing to throw Lehigh's expectations in the trash yet, but I'd sure like to see a win next weekend.


Lafayette still has as much chance to win this league AND have a respectable showing out of conference as anybody based on the first two weeks. I believe you do a good job reporting on Lehigh and the PL in general....but when Lafayette enters the picture your objectiveness very blatantly exits.

I'm really not seeing why Lafayette folks are seeing the Penn game as an expendable one. I don't see an 0-2 OOC record as a "respectable showing" - I don't think it is for Lehigh, and while it's your prerogative to see it that way for your Leopards I think viewing it in this way is a mistake. And you can bank on the fact that the wider world of FCS won't think of it in that way, either.

[Pard94]

Fair enough. And no, I'm not willing to throw Lehigh's expectations in the trash yet, but I'd sure like to see a win next weekend.



I'm really not seeing why Lafayette folks are seeing the Penn game as an expendable one. I don't see an 0-2 OOC record as a "respectable showing" - I don't think it is for Lehigh, and while it's your prerogative to see it that way for your Leopards I think viewing it in this way is a mistake. And you can bank on the fact that the wider world of FCS won't think of it in that way, either.

What are you talking about? Who is suggesting that the Penn game is expenable? I'm simply pointing out that you have lumped Lafayette and Lehigh into the same unoffical tier. They aren't. The bubble space upon which Lehigh currently rests is a whole lot slipperier than Lafayette. Lafayette has one league win and and a tough loss to a ranked team. Lehigh was blown out by a ranked team and lost to an unranked non-league team who may or may not be a very good team. You "don't see how an 0-2 OOC record is a respectable showing". I agree with you. The problem is you seem to have chalked up a loss for us even before it has happened. There's that cloudy Lafayette lense again. Lehigh has the 0-2 OCC record, not Lafayette. But don't let the facts get in the way of a mediocre story. Spin it however you have to. This time next week the scenario might be vastly different. As of today, 9/21/09, Lafayette is in a better position both in league standings and "quality of losses" (if there is such a thing). That's my point. My sub-point is anyone who is not blinded by fierce homerism can see that.

[Pard94]

Well at least one thing appears to be certain: Holy Cross is the consensus favorite as of now.

Only a moron could suggest otherwise at this point.

[RichH2]

Agree Owl. I do not believe talent level lower. In fact I think Coen has improved it but he has not yet taught this team how to win close games. 10 losses by under a TD.How many close ones have we pulled out to win? Coaching coaching etc Next few weeks will show whether Andy can get this team up to a competitve squad. If not then another .500 record and a new coach next year.

Carney , not knocking LC D, very good but LUhealthy is better . Time will tell which of us is correct.

Ace my point wasn't that CCSu was not good. if you recall my posts I said that you were very good
my issue was with how poorly LU was prepared for game and how terrible qb was

[crusader11]

Only a moron could suggest otherwise at this point.

You could make a compelling argument for Colgate...

[RichH2]

Geez,

I feel like we all are in a time warp talking about the quality of our losses. Says a lot about the status of our PL. At least HC and Gate can discuss the quality of their wins.

[Pard94]

You could make a compelling argument for Colgate...

What...that they are frontrunners or they are morons? xsmiley_wix Just kidding Colgate fans...please don't come at me with Academic Indecies and such.

[ngineer]

Agree Owl. I do not believe talent level lower. In fact I think Coen has improved it but he has not yet taught this team how to win close games. 10 losses by under a TD.How many close ones have we pulled out to win? Coaching coaching etc Next few weeks will show whether Andy can get this team up to a competitve squad. If not then another .500 record and a new coach next year.

Carney , not knocking LC D, very good but LUhealthy is better . Time will tell which of us is correct.

Ace my point wasn't that CCSu was not good. if you recall my posts I said that you were very good
my issue was with how poorly LU was prepared for game and how terrible qb was

I fully agree. I believe the top tier of the PL have all improved in talent over the past few years...The problem is the other conferences, NEC, CAA and IL have improved more than we have. When you are in tight games, coaching plays a huge part in coming out winning or losing...second, I think, only to turnovers.

[Pard94]

Geez,

I feel like we all are in a time warp talking about the quality of our losses. Says a lot about the status of our PL. At least HC and Gate can discuss the quality of their wins.

Until such time that PL teams occupy the Top 25 consistently (see "scholarships") and/or we continue to schedule teams that do, there will always be such discussion. At least we're not talking about which is worse...a loss to Georgetown or a loss Marist.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You "don't see how an 0-2 OOC record is a respectable showing". I agree with you. The problem is you seem to have chalked up a loss for us even before it has happened. There's that cloudy Lafayette lense again. Lehigh has the 0-2 OCC record, not Lafayette. But don't let the facts get in the way of a mediocre story. Spin it however you have to. This time next week the scenario might be vastly different. As of today, 9/21/09, Lafayette is in a better position both in league standings and "quality of losses" (if there is such a thing). That's my point. My sub-point is anyone who is not blinded by fierce homerism can see that.

When did I ever say Lafayette was going to lose the game? Don't put words in my mouth - I have made no picks. All I have said is that the game is important for Lafayette and the league.

I agree with you 100% that this time next week the scenario might be very different - but that's my point. Lafayette will either be 2-1 and looking more than ready to line up against Holy Cross and Colgate, or will be 1-2 with questions as to whether they're up to the same level.

Either you think the game is important - in which case, this is an important "show-me" game - or you think it's not, and it's expendable one way or another and a 1-2 start wouldn't be all that bad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Geez,

I feel like we all are in a time warp talking about the quality of our losses. Says a lot about the status of our PL. At least HC and Gate can discuss the quality of their wins.

Wow, Rich, did you ever hit the nail on the head.

[ngineer]

You could make a compelling argument for Colgate...


Key word...Not yet. Looking at Colgate's wins, there are still questions. Monmouth lost 18 starters from last year's team, and Dartmouth is the bottom of the IL barrel. All I'm saying is that Holy Cross put to rest a lot of questions after its own questionable start with two weak opponents, by beating the consensus #1 team in the IL, preseason. At the moment it's Holy Cross, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Fordham, Bucknell and Georgetown...and all subject to many changes. A Lafayette win this week will open a lot of eyes, as Penn played VU a lot tougher than we did.

[aceinthehole]

As for CCSU, for me the jury is still out. They beat a Lehigh team Week One by surviving a huge number of mistakes but in the end successfully playing their sort of game (and Lehigh didn't, or couldn't, prevent it). The next week, in a game where the Blue Devils were thrown out of their comfort zone (against a Top 25 team, granted), they couldn't hang. No question CCSU will win games this year, but it's still hard to adequately judge them.

Are you serious? CCSU faired just as well against W&M in game 2 than LU did vs. 'Nova.

How did LU 'hang' with VU?

How is CCSU's 33-14 loss at #7 William and Mary, any worse than Lehigh's 38-17 loss to #3 Villanova.

CCSU rush vs. W&M - 78
Lehigh rush vs 'Nova - 55

All of the stats were similar. But let's not let facts get in the way that Lehigh was beat by a BETTER team, in CCSU.

CCSU/W&M boxscore - https://admin.xosn.com/fls/17600//stats/FB/2009/091209.htm?&SPSID=88585&SPID=10551&DB_OEM_ID=17600

LU/'Nova boxscore - http://www.lehighsports.com/assets/sports/football/Lehigh%20-%20Villanova%20boxscore%2091209.HTM

[Pard94]

When did I ever say Lafayette was going to lose the game? Don't put words in my mouth - I have made no picks. All I have said is that the game is important for Lafayette and the league.

I agree with you 100% that this time next week the scenario might be very different - but that's my point. Lafayette will either be 2-1 and looking more than ready to line up against Holy Cross and Colgate, or will be 1-2 with questions as to whether they're up to the same level.

Either you think the game is important - in which case, this is an important "show-me" game - or you think it's not, and it's expendable one way or another and a 1-2 start wouldn't be all that bad.


Here's your exact quote..."I'm really not seeing why Lafayette folks are seeing the Penn game as an expendable one. I don't see an 0-2 OOC record as a "respectable showing" - I don't think it is for Lehigh, and while it's your prerogative to see it that way for your Leopards I think viewing it in this way is a mistake. And you can bank on the fact that the wider world of FCS won't think of it in that way, either."

The only words being put in anyone's mouth is the part where you say Lafayette folks view the Penn game as expendable. When you follow up that sentence with the the bit about 0-2 not being respectable you're kind of implying a loss, no? Because, you see, Lafayette is only 0-1 OCC at this point. It's been a long time since I have diagramed sentences but that's the conclusion I came to.

[ngineer]

Good Gawd LFN..You really know how to push some buttons and get peoples' scivvies all tied up in knots!!!xlolx

[Pard94]

Good Gawd LFN..You really know how to push some buttons and get peoples' scivvies all tied up in knots!!!xlolx

LFN is to Lehigh what Keith Olberman is to Obama.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lafayette is exactly where we realistically expected to be at this point. Lafayette still has as much chance to win this league AND have a respectable showing out of conference as anybody based on the first two weeks.


I'm really not seeing why Lafayette folks are seeing the Penn game as an expendable one. I don't see an 0-2 OOC record as a "respectable showing" - I don't think it is for Lehigh, and while it's your prerogative to see it that way for your Leopards I think viewing it in this way is a mistake. And you can bank on the fact that the wider world of FCS won't think of it in that way, either.


The only words being put in anyone's mouth is the part where you say Lafayette folks view the Penn game as expendable. When you follow up that sentence with the the bit about 0-2 not being respectable you're kind of implying a loss, no? Because, you see, Lafayette is only 0-1 OCC at this point. It's been a long time since I have diagramed sentences but that's the conclusion I came to.

You're 0-1 OOC today. You said, "Lafayette is exactly where we realistically expected to be at this point. Lafayette still has as much chance to win this league AND have a respectable showing out of conference as anybody based on the first two weeks." I wholeheartedly agree. Lafayette played respectably vs. Liberty, and the jury's still out.

But Lafayette needs to win these OOC games, starting with next week.

Next week, you'll either be 1-1 OOC and with a compelling case that you're a PL title contender, or 0-2 OOC with questions. I don't believe I implied that Lafayette was going to lose - it was more like "if they lose, there will be questions".

I think this is exacerbated by the poor OOC record of the rest of the PL (excluding Colgate and HC, but pointedly does include Lehigh's 0-2 OOC record).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN is to Lehigh what Keith Olberman is to Obama.

At least I don't go on Cronkitian rants, or go on about impeaching Lafayette's presidents. Not yet, anyway. xlolx

[Go...gate]

C'mon, LFN, Colgate and the Cross have stitched together 3-0s by playing the halt and the lame. They have what, 1 1/2 quality wins between them? Even Harvard, which is the 1.0, was playing its 1st game, while HC was on the field for the 3rd time. Lafayette and Lehigh are each 0-2, but have played 2 1/2 quality teams, with only one cupcake between them. Villanova for certain, and Liberty I'm guessing, are at least Harvard-esque in quality. Line up some cupcakes for L&L and I'm betting they'd chow down too.

As for the Ivy foes this weekend, I disagree that both need to win to disprove your rash statements. Lehigh may be further up that creek than Lafayette because Princeton looks, at this point, a bit more like a pussy cat than a Tiger. Penn, on the other hand, has been picked as the primary challenger to Harvard in the Ivy League. I don't know the details, but they held top 5 Villanova to 14 points - 7 after the opening kickoff return for a TD. I expect Lafayette to enter the game as the underdog - and we all know how the Pards do against the Ivys (and it doesn't ever mean diddly when the PL season starts).

It's a 4 team race. I'll go out on a limb and handicap this thing:

Holy Cross - 35%
Colgate - 30%
Lafayette - 25%
Lehigh - 10%

That totals 100%. Oh yeah, a note to RichH, whose opinions I value. If the Squawks have a good "D," it is no better than no. 2 in the League. That one you can take to the bank.

Your initial statement in the title of this thread got my attention. The crapola that you dished out above as "journalism" really honked me.

It could be worse. We could be playing Texas College or Webber International. xlolxxrotatehx

[Pard94]

You're 0-1 OOC today. You said, "Lafayette is exactly where we realistically expected to be at this point. Lafayette still has as much chance to win this league AND have a respectable showing out of conference as anybody based on the first two weeks." I wholeheartedly agree. Lafayette played respectably vs. Liberty, and the jury's still out.

But Lafayette needs to win these OOC games, starting with next week.

Next week, you'll either be 1-1 OOC and with a compelling case that you're a PL title contender, or 0-2 OOC with questions. I don't believe I implied that Lafayette was going to lose - it was more like "if they lose, there will be questions".

I think this is exacerbated by the poor OOC record of the rest of the PL (excluding Colgate and HC, but pointedly does include Lehigh's 0-2 OOC record).

OK...this is the part where you say, "Who is on first?" and I reposnd with "What's the fella's name on first?".

Except for the poor sentence construction leading to the implication that we've already lost our 2nd OCC game and the part where you suggest we Lafayette folk don't care about our upcoming loss we're in complete agreement. Nothing like a little added mental gymnastics on a Monday.

[TheValleyRaider]

You could make a compelling argument for Colgate...

Many thanks Sader, but we still have to play in Worcester. That bullseye is all yours.... xsmiley_wix

[carney2]

I'm really not seeing why Lafayette folks are seeing the Penn game as an expendable one.

We go oh-fer the Ivys every year and it doesn't affect PL performance one twit. Losing to Penn, Yale and Harvard would be de rigueur for this program - not a cause for joy, mind you, but something we've fought through year after year and decade after decade. Now you're saying that this year is different? Not so, mon ami (sticking with the French theme).

In truth, Pard fans have expectations for this Saturday and the next at Yale, but deep down we fear The Curse. We envision neither the end of the world nor the end of Patriot League title aspirations, however, should The Curse prevail yet again.

[Pards Rule]

I care about OOC games - and the players and staff do too. I want a win. These are the games (great case in point - Liberty for the past two years) that gives everyone a breath of fresh air. No game is expendable when you have only 11 of them. This isn't MLB.

[Pard94]

I care about OOC games - and the players and staff do too. I want a win. These are the games (great case in point - Liberty for the past two years) that gives everyone a breath of fresh air. No game is expendable when you have only 11 of them. This isn't MLB.


Keep in mind, Carney has been appointed and accepted the lifetime role of Lafayette Devil's Advocate. As such he is doomed to believe in curse's, hex's and all other Satan-spawned supernatural elements that prohibit Lafayette from winning. As such he doesn't have the luxury of being optimistic about our chances against Ivy League opponents. Nor does her represent the vast number of Lafayette supporters who walk in the light.

[carney2]

Keep in mind, Carney has been appointed and accepted the lifetime role of Lafayette Devil's Advocate.

I'm no advocate. I'm the real deal. Beelzebub. Lucifer. King of the underworld. Sharpener of pitchforks. Maker of fire.

[Pard94]

I'm no advocate. I'm the real deal. Beelzebub. Lucifer. King of the underworld.


Away from me you devil! The power of Pard compells you!

[RichH2]

Just because Carney has horns and a tail does not make him a devil. Oh, wait a minute it doesxsmiley_wix. My favorite curmudgeon nonetheless. I'll go to confession tonitexthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

Fellas, it's a long season. Not even October, for Pete's sake. A lot of crazy stuff is bound to happen. I still think Fordham will be heard from, Lehigh and Lafayette have lost to some very good opponents, and Georgetown and Bucknell will break through - maybe against HC or Colgate.

[19Duke97]

In three games, Georgetown is averaging 26 yards a game rushing.

That just mean your defense is not that bad! xthumbsupx

[ngineer]

Fellas, it's a long season. Not even October, for Pete's sake. A lot of crazy stuff is bound to happen. I still think Fordham will be heard from, Lehigh and Lafayette have lost to some very good opponents, and Georgetown and Bucknell will break through - maybe against HC or Colgate.

As the old lady said in the diner in When Harry Met Sally..."I'll have what she's having"...;)

[RichH2]

Make that a doublexrotatehx. Serious week, jokes aside, for the PL. As we become more parochial with schedule, IL and PL almost exclusively , these games must be competitve for us.

[LEHIGH61]

YES!!!!!!!!

[LEHIGH61]

Hey Curley. Where's Mo?

[Franks Tanks]

Hey Curley. Where's Mo?

Mo (white) is our starting TB. We just need a Larry

[carney2]

LFN, whatever possessed you to start this thread - in September?!!!

I am forming a Committee of Retribution. We will find you at THE Game and slap you silly.

[Go...gate]

As the old lady said in the diner in When Harry Met Sally..."I'll have what she's having"...;)

Ladies and gentlemen, ya never know. xscanx

[RichH2]

Better bring some big fellas. LFN no pushover :D

[seahawkfan2007]

No Shot: Georgetown, Bucknell and Lehigh
Long Shot: Fordham
Good Shot: Colgate, Lafayette and Holy Cross
My Pick: Holy Cross

[RamRay]

I am so bumed out by the horrible showing thus far by Fordham, I almost stopped reading all posts. xbawlingx Given the talent and skills on this team but looking at all the errors shown, I don't know if they can do a full 180 now. It is as if a curse has been put on the team! I am sure the coaching staff has been losing sleep. xsmhx

In any event I see the top three right now as Holy Cross, Colgate and Lafayette with Lehigh ready to surprise. I think the same upper-lower split will prevail with Bucknell, Fordham and Georgetown rounding out the PL.

[ngineer]

I am so bumed out by the horrible showing thus far by Fordham, I almost stopped reading all posts. xbawlingx Given the talent and skills on this team but looking at all the errors shown, I don't know if they can do a full 180 now. It is as if a curse has been put on the team! I am sure the coaching staff has been losing sleep. xsmhx

In any event I see the top three right now as Holy Cross, Colgate and Lafayette with Lehigh ready to surprise. I think the same upper-lower split will prevail with Bucknell, Fordham and Georgetown rounding out the PL.

There won't be any surprise. Next two weeks will tell everyone what we're made of. Princeton and Harvard back to back will be very good barometers as to how good we can be once we get into PL play.

[carney2]

Is it still two, LFN?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's definitely three, carney. But that's clearly it so far.

[RichH2]

As of now, must be Gate, Cross and the Pards. Daydreaming yesterday about Lu going 5-6 again and finishing 2nd in PL. Must be the gin or I had another of those damn senior moments xwhistlex.

[carney2]

As of now, must be Gate, Cross and the Pards. Daydreaming yesterday about Lu going 5-6 again and finishing 2nd in PL. Must be the gin or I had another of those damn senior moments xwhistlex.

Let's take a look:

Harvard (Probable) L
Georgetown W
Yale I have no idea
@ Bucknell W
@ Colgate L
Holy Cross L
@Fordham No clue
Lafayette L

That's a probable (based on performance thru 3 games) 2-7-with 2 up for grabs. Personally, I never bought into the euphoria of the faithful that had this bunch going 9-2 or 8-3, but I have to believe that they're better than a 2 or 3 win season. I'm guessing that your dream scenario has them losing only to the Cross or Colgate in the Patriot League(?).

[Pard94]

Let's take a look:

Harvard (Probable) L
Georgetown W
Yale I have no idea
@ Bucknell W
@ Colgate L
Holy Cross L
@Fordham No clue
Lafayette L

That's a probable (based on performance thru 3 games) 2-7-with 2 up for grabs. Personally, I never bought into the euphoria of the faithful that had this bunch going 9-2 or 8-3, but I have to believe that they're better than a 2 or 3 win season. I'm guessing that your dream scenario has them losing only to the Cross or Colgate in the Patriot League(?).


There you go again Carney...harboring the enemy.xnonox

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Let's take a look:

Harvard (Probable) L
Georgetown W
Yale I have no idea
@ Bucknell W
@ Colgate L
Holy Cross L
@Fordham No clue
Lafayette L

That's a probable (based on performance thru 3 games) 2-7-with 2 up for grabs. Personally, I never bought into the euphoria of the faithful that had this bunch going 9-2 or 8-3, but I have to believe that they're better than a 2 or 3 win season. I'm guessing that your dream scenario has them losing only to the Cross or Colgate in the Patriot League(?).

A belief that a team should improve and 7 home games was the reason many, including me, felt 8-3/9-2 was reachable.

As it is 3 wins seems the likely scenario and 4 being best case depending on Yale. Bucknell might even beat Lehigh this year. Their due for a win over the Hawks, the last came in '97. Coen is a dead man walking imo.

[carney2]

There you go again Carney...harboring the enemy.xnonox

Just offering a helping hand to the pathetically downtrodden. Despite the repeated attacks on me and my reputation by [persons and in-laws unnamed and unnamable], I am really a very nice guy. In fact, I am the nicest guy that I know.

[RichH2]

No, Carney, the senior moment has passed. While I still am going to Harvard, Yale and Lafayette , I trying to get that early 80s mindset back. xsmhx. Happy with stats or plays, everything but final score. Absent some major improvement this week, I guess I'll go into recruiting mode earlyxsmiley_wix.

Of course they will torture me again this week by playing much better and losing on a fluke or a bad call. Something to make me crazier and my wife go on vacation until Thanksgiving

[colorless raider]

I am so bumed out by the horrible showing thus far by Fordham, I almost stopped reading all posts. xbawlingx Given the talent and skills on this team but looking at all the errors shown, I don't know if they can do a full 180 now. It is as if a curse has been put on the team! I am sure the coaching staff has been losing sleep. xsmhx

In any event I see the top three right now as Holy Cross, Colgate and Lafayette with Lehigh ready to surprise. I think the same upper-lower split will prevail with Bucknell, Fordham and Georgetown rounding out the PL.

I agree; the talent is there. It must be a coaching or attitude deal as that is a good lookin team coming off the bus.

[carney2]

...and my wife go on vacation until Thanksgiving

What is the secret to having this happen?

[RichH2]

I rant and rave from Saturday until Tuesday, she throws stuff at me . I think she still likes me cause I hear her muttering as she leaves that if she stayed she would have to kill me.xnonox At least I think thats what she means.

Given our start this year, I may ask her to go to Florida 2 months early this year xsmiley_wix

[ngineer]

Hey LFN, check you PMs...YOUR INBOX IS FULL!!!!!!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

:o

Fixed.

[RichH2]

Let's see if Lum can spark the O and get Lehigh back in this race. D injuries could make Harvard a shootout game if Lum can kick start O. Think Andy showed some cojones making the change.xrotatehx. Hope it worksxpeacex