Final Nail on Sioux Nickname?

[TexasTerror]

Looks like the final nail in the coffin...


GRAND FORKS, N.D. — The chairman of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe says tribal officials will continue to oppose North Dakota's Fighting Sioux nickname even if he loses his re-election bid later this month.

Ron His Horse Is Thunder spoke to the state Board of Higher Education at its meeting Thursday. The board has voted to abolish the name and logo unless its gets support from the state's two Sioux tribes by Oct. 1.

His Horse Is Thunder said the most recent vote by the Standing Rock tribal council was 9-3 against the nickname. He said the result shows the council's position does not depend on whether he stays in office.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6624219.html

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

Mr. Englestad will come pick up his toys (ie: Ralph Englestad Arena, among others) and leave if he doesn't get to keep his way, .....

[93henfan]

Mr. Englestad will come pick up his toys (ie: Ralph Englestad Arena, among others0 and leave if he doesn't get to keep his way, .....

Looks like His Pockets Are Deep lost to His Horse Is Thunder.

Man, what I wouldn't give to have a name like Ron His Horse Is Thunder. That guy must get all the chicks.

[UND92,96]

Looks like His Pockets Are Deep lost to His Horse Is Thunder.

Man, what I wouldn't give to have a name like Ron His Horse Is Thunder. That guy must get all the chicks.

You can always change it. Ron did. His real name is Ron McNeil.

[UND92,96]

Mr. Englestad will come pick up his toys (ie: Ralph Englestad Arena, among others0 and leave if he doesn't get to keep his way, .....

You do know that Engelstad's been dead for a couple of years, don't you?

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

You do know that Engelstad's been dead for a couple of years, don't you?


I guess his grandchildren will have to come pick up the toys, then...xrolleyesx

(No, I did not. That is too bad)

[UND92,96]

Looks like the final nail in the coffin...



http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6624219.html
While I don't think the nickname is going to stay, the mere fact that Ron McNeil showed up at the meeting today, despite the fact that the issue wasn't even on the agenda, probably speaks volumes about the fact that he's a bit worried. Keep in mind that a number of council seats are also being contested in a few weeks. If the council allows for a public vote like Spirit Lake did, it's almost a given that the results would be similar. But IMO the Board of Higher Ed. and UND's administration would prefer to simply drop the name and be done with the issue.

[LakesBison]

oh. like this will change anything, no matter what they are called.

their fans wont let it die, thus the name will never die, thus they will never get into a conference.

win-win for everyone!!

[LakesBison]

cricket noise.....cricket noise...

[jmc_jackrabbit]

Without passing judgment on the nickname, isn't it pretty clear that the Summit League won't admit you, UND, without a change?

The presidents of the league have to agree to admit UND. SDSU and USD, for example, have their own large Native American constituencies that would be opposed to UND's admission with the nickname intact, no matter what the ND tribes or NCAA determine. I'm guessing that NDSU's President would agree with SDSU and USD on that issue. Without those three votes, no way does UND get an invitation to the Summit League.

So even if UND somehow manages to finagle acceptance of their nickname in ND and even with the NCAA, keeping the Sioux name almost certainly means no Summit League invitation. I'm pretty certain the ND Board of Higher Education wants UND in an autobid league for its non-football and non-hockey teams.

[darell1976]

Without passing judgment on the nickname, isn't it pretty clear that the Summit League won't admit you, UND, without a change?

The presidents of the league have to agree to admit UND. SDSU and USD, for example, have their own large Native American constituencies that would be opposed to UND's admission with the nickname intact, no matter what the ND tribes or NCAA determine. I'm guessing that NDSU's President would agree with SDSU and USD on that issue. Without those three votes, no way does UND get an invitation to the Summit League.

So even if UND somehow manages to finagle acceptance of their nickname in ND and even with the NCAA, keeping the Sioux name almost certainly means no Summit League invitation. I'm pretty certain the ND Board of Higher Education wants UND in an autobid league for its non-football and non-hockey teams.

Not really. They will admit us when this issue is done so either with Indian tribe approval or a name change so either way the Summit will be knocking on UND's door very soon.

[darell1976]

While I don't think the nickname is going to stay, the mere fact that Ron McNeil showed up at the meeting today, despite the fact that the issue wasn't even on the agenda, probably speaks volumes about the fact that he's a bit worried. Keep in mind that a number of council seats are also being contested in a few weeks. If the council allows for a public vote like Spirit Lake did, it's almost a given that the results would be similar. But IMO the Board of Higher Ed. and UND's administration would prefer to simply drop the name and be done with the issue.

I think this whole thing is far from over first UND thought they never have a chance (outcome of the lawsuit) then there was hope (voting at Spirit Lake) now it looks like its dead (SBoHE's new deadline) so its a rollercoaster that has as of now 12 days left until the ride stops. I think everyone is tired of this and even if UND loses its name there will be fans chanting go Sioux for a long time then when the new name is introduced the team will continue its pride and strength.

[UND92,96]

Without passing judgment on the nickname, isn't it pretty clear that the Summit League won't admit you, UND, without a change?

The presidents of the league have to agree to admit UND. SDSU and USD, for example, have their own large Native American constituencies that would be opposed to UND's admission with the nickname intact, no matter what the ND tribes or NCAA determine. I'm guessing that NDSU's President would agree with SDSU and USD on that issue. Without those three votes, no way does UND get an invitation to the Summit League.

So even if UND somehow manages to finagle acceptance of their nickname in ND and even with the NCAA, keeping the Sioux name almost certainly means no Summit League invitation. I'm pretty certain the ND Board of Higher Education wants UND in an autobid league for its non-football and non-hockey teams.

The irony is that I firmly believe that the powers-that-be, i.e. the Board of Higher Ed. and to some extent UND's president (who has no real say on the issue) want the name to go. But groups of citizens on the two ND Sioux reservations have taken it upon themselves to make their voices heard, quite possibly to the chagrin of the Board of Higher Ed. So the Board of Higher Ed. is in a bit of a quandry. Can the state of ND really drop the name even if the terms of the settlement with the NCAA are met, and a clear majority of the voters, if not necessarily a majority of politicians, on the reservations want it to stay? Wouldn't dropping it under such circumstances be viewed as somewhat racist in and of itself? I'm glad I'm not the one making these decisions.

[darell1976]

The irony is that I firmly believe that the powers-that-be, i.e. the Board of Higher Ed. and to some extent UND's president (who has no real say on the issue) want the name to go. But groups of citizens on the two ND Sioux reservations have taken it upon themselves to make their voices heard, quite possibly to the chagrine of the Board of Higher Ed. So the Board of Higher Ed. is in a bit of a quandry. Can the state of ND really drop the name even if the terms of the settlement with the NCAA are met, and a clear majority of the voters, if not necessarily a majority of politicians, on the reservations want it to stay? Wouldn't dropping it under such circumstances be viewed as somewhat racist in and of itself? I'm glad I'm not the one making these decisions.

I think you hit the nail on the head, and this works better for UND because UND isn't the bad guy in this its the Standing Rock Tribal Council who won't let their people vote and its the Board of Higher ED for now allowing a vote to happen after a new tribal council is elected. So I think this may not be over even when the Oct. 1st deadline comes up. Stay tuned!!

[Native]

The irony is that I firmly believe that the powers-that-be, i.e. the Board of Higher Ed. and to some extent UND's president (who has no real say on the issue) want the name to go. But groups of citizens on the two ND Sioux reservations have taken it upon themselves to make their voices heard, quite possibly to the chagrine of the Board of Higher Ed. So the Board of Higher Ed. is in a bit of a quandry. Can the state of ND really drop the name even if the terms of the settlement with the NCAA are met, and a clear majority of the voters, if not necessarily a majority of politicians, on the reservations want it to stay? Wouldn't dropping it under such circumstances be viewed as somewhat racist in and of itself? I'm glad I'm not the one making these decisions.

Are you kidding?!?? I would be delighted to be the one making the decisions.

Then if I got fired I would run for public office in the resulting scandal to turn out the incumbents.

Typical case of over-reaching incumbents with too much power!

[CopperCat]

This tribal council leader Ron whatever his name is, is what is wrong with American today. They get offended by something that apparently "makes an example" out of them, they go whining to the courts, and the result is a huge litigation process where the whiner gets their way. UND has NOTHING but respect for their mascot. Every football game I went to while I lived in GF, everybody immediately shutup when the video of the tribal dancers came on the jumbotron. And yet these lunatics still think it is offensive. Blows my mind.

[MplsBison]

Without passing judgment on the nickname, isn't it pretty clear that the Summit League won't admit you, UND, without a change?

The presidents of the league have to agree to admit UND. SDSU and USD, for example, have their own large Native American constituencies that would be opposed to UND's admission with the nickname intact, no matter what the ND tribes or NCAA determine. I'm guessing that NDSU's President would agree with SDSU and USD on that issue. Without those three votes, no way does UND get an invitation to the Summit League.

So even if UND somehow manages to finagle acceptance of their nickname in ND and even with the NCAA, keeping the Sioux name almost certainly means no Summit League invitation. I'm pretty certain the ND Board of Higher Education wants UND in an autobid league for its non-football and non-hockey teams.

If UND got 30 year agreements signed and in place with both tribes, I don't see why the Summit would still deny them membership.

The Summit just did not want to get caught up in any nickname press, period. That's all.


Once the issue is resolved, one way or another, the Summit will extend UND membership just as they did with USD.



It may simply be cleaner to just break from the nickname and start over fresh, rather than fight the good fight. That my feeling from the SBoHE and the UND admin, anyway.

[JBB]

The issue is corrupt. Its not the name but the affect of the name. Even the judge that presided over the NCAA case in North Dakota was revealed as a person who ridiculed and disparaged the image of the Native American with his jingoistic club jacket from his college days at UND. He closed the case records and they cant be examined.

The attitude of many UND supporters that are in favor of keeping the name is racists. Read their comments as they reveal their own revenge motives.

The campus atmosphere has been less than accepting of Native Americans if the many stories they tell are to be believed. To counter those claims UND spends taxpayer dollars on Native American programs and tuition to show "their" generosity and "their" empathy.

The universities spokespeople, including the fans, have methodically attempted to discredit those in favor of dropping the nickname to the point of personal harassment and intimidation so they will be reluctant to speak out. Usually it takes the form of abusive and personal attacks in public forums like this for those taking the opposite view.

The politics are very corrupt with the intervention of Englestads money and the State Board of Higher Eduction acting as UNDs proxy.

How ever it comes out it has been ugly. The most recent outrage occurred at Texas Tech with the program. UNDs predictable outcry of the unflattering caricature is a warning shot that they can mock your school but you cant have fun with theirs.

Their nickname/logo is a representation of the Native Americans. They want it both ways, they insist the name is not derogatory but yet insist that all the deragatory and negative implications coming from it stop.

[jimbo65]

While I am an easterner, I think this situation can be reconciled as follows: Hire a crooked Indian Agent, as depicted in the John Wayne 7th Cavalry movies, have him dispense "firewater" to the whiners and when they are whacked, get them to sign a treaty allowing use of the name. The treaties effect on the government is irrelevant since we continually broke the treatiesxnonox when such action was for our betterment.

[Native]

The issue is corrupt. Its not the name but the affect of the name. Even the judge that presided over the NCAA case in North Dakota was revealed as a person who ridiculed and disparaged the image of the Native American with his jingoistic club jacket from his college days at UND. He closed the case records and they cant be examined.

The attitude of many UND supporters that are in favor of keeping the name is racists. Read their comments as they reveal their own revenge motives.

The campus atmosphere has been less than accepting of Native Americans if the many stories they tell are to be believed. To counter those claims UND spends taxpayer dollars on Native American programs and tuition to show "their" generosity and "their" empathy.

The universities spokespeople, including the fans, have methodically attempted to discredit those in favor of dropping the nickname to the point of personal harassment and intimidation so they will be reluctant to speak out. Usually it takes the form of abusive and personal attacks in public forums like this for those taking the opposite view.

The politics are very corrupt with the intervention of Englestads money and the State Board of Higher Eduction acting as UNDs proxy.

How ever it comes out it has been ugly. The most recent outrage occurred at Texas Tech with the program. UNDs predictable outcry of the unflattering caricature is a warning shot that they can mock your school but you cant have fun with theirs.

Their nickname/logo is a representation of the Native Americans. They want it both ways, they insist the name is not derogatory but yet insist that all the deragatory and negative implications coming from it stop.

The thing that absolutely galls me the most is the lack of respect for the expressed wishes of the Lakota people themselves, as expressed in the voting booth.

Voting is the most fundamental and sacred component of the predominant culture, and always has been regardless of the regime in power at the moment.

Look at the entire history of the Lakota. Neither integration nor co-existence with American society has not been particularly successful, especially compared to other tribes. xsmhx

Now we have a chance to validate one small aspect of successful integration integration and co-existence by embracing the expressed wishes of the Lakota people.

But NO! Instead, we treat them as voiceless, helpless, invisible children like we always have done. Shame! Shame! xnonox

White racism stands on its own. It does not trump the wishes of the Lakota people!

The Trail of Tears was another example of the same phenomenon. They're not good enough! We have to think for them! They must be kept in a perpetual state of dependency! ...UNTIL we find gold on their property, of course, as was the case both in the Black Hills and in Cherokee lands in Georgia. Then we abandon our own principles and take away the gold. Talk about a stacked deck.xnonono2x

[WestRiverBison]

The bottom line is $$. Let's not kid ourselves. Open the wallet on anything Sioux related for the tribes and the problem goes away. Florida State, etc understood this. The millions spent on this case could have been used to settle with the tribes and the Sioux name would live on.

[JBB]

Its obviously not successful integration. The controversy surrounding the issue belies that statement. The forces that brought the issue to the forefront also speak against that statement.

[MplsBison]

Question to you Native: would you be comfortable with allowing the people of the US to vote on whether we should launch a nuclear missile into Russia?


My point is that there are some things that the mob is simply not qualified to vote on. Some things, on the other hand, they are.


What's most important, IMO, is that neither the mob nor the administration of a country gain too much power over the other. Balance, as in all things, is key.



So, all that said, does it change your view on this at all? Or do you still think that whatever side gets the most votes is correct?

[Native]

Question to you Native: would you be comfortable with allowing the people of the US to vote on whether we should launch a nuclear missile into Russia?

My point is that there are some things that the mob is simply not qualified to vote on. Some things, on the other hand, they are.

What's most important, IMO, is that neither the mob nor the administration of a country gain too much power over the other. Balance, as in all things, is key.

So, all that said, does it change your view on this at all? Or do you still think that whatever side gets the most votes is correct?

I take your point about "the mob," and no, I don't think that majority rule always provides the best policy.

However, it is the U.S. Constitution and not unelected bureaucratic elites which provides the best protection yet devised against the chaos and unbridled passions of the mob.

On the other hand, bureaucratic elitists who think they know best and are entitled to make decisions for regular people are more of a danger to peace, brotherhood, freedom and liberty than even the mob.

I would honestly feel more comfortable allowing U.S. voters to decide whether to drop the bomb than I am in characterizing tribal voters as "the mob." What an insult!

[darell1976]

The issue is corrupt. Its not the name but the affect of the name. Even the judge that presided over the NCAA case in North Dakota was revealed as a person who ridiculed and disparaged the image of the Native American with his jingoistic club jacket from his college days at UND. He closed the case records and they cant be examined.

The attitude of many UND supporters that are in favor of keeping the name is racists. Read their comments as they reveal their own revenge motives.

The campus atmosphere has been less than accepting of Native Americans if the many stories they tell are to be believed. To counter those claims UND spends taxpayer dollars on Native American programs and tuition to show "their" generosity and "their" empathy.

The universities spokespeople, including the fans, have methodically attempted to discredit those in favor of dropping the nickname to the point of personal harassment and intimidation so they will be reluctant to speak out. Usually it takes the form of abusive and personal attacks in public forums like this for those taking the opposite view.

The politics are very corrupt with the intervention of Englestads money and the State Board of Higher Eduction acting as UNDs proxy.

How ever it comes out it has been ugly. The most recent outrage occurred at Texas Tech with the program. UNDs predictable outcry of the unflattering caricature is a warning shot that they can mock your school but you cant have fun with theirs.

Their nickname/logo is a representation of the Native Americans. They want it both ways, they insist the name is not derogatory but yet insist that all the deragatory and negative implications coming from it stop.

Don't believe anything JBB says about UND!!!!!!!!xmadx

[onbison09]

Don't believe anything JBB says about UND!!!!!!!!xmadx

Well they did get pissed at Texas Tech after the depth chart thing so he's right in a sense they want it both ways.

[darell1976]

Well they did get pissed at Texas Tech after the depth chart thing so he's right in a sense they want it both ways.

Isn't making a horse look drunk with an Indian on it a racist stereotype?? But what got me about JBB's post is that Sioux supporters are racists...so my 3 year old son who says go Sioux is a racist??? What about Washington Redskin fans and Florida State fans (Seminole tribes in Oklahoma disapprove of the name) so the fans must be racist. I like how UND is such a bad place to go because of the name but yet the NCAA did NOT find one piece of evidence of harrassment or racism on campus. Let the Tribes decide for themselves...and the Spirit Lake tribe did with their vote.

[bisonguy]

Isn't making a horse look drunk with an Indian on it a racist stereotype?? But what got me about JBB's post is that Sioux supporters are racists...so my 3 year old son who says go Sioux is a racist??? What about Washington Redskin fans and Florida State fans (Seminole tribes in Oklahoma disapprove of the name) so the fans must be racist. I like how UND is such a bad place to go because of the name but yet the NCAA did NOT find one piece of evidence of harrassment or racism on campus. Let the Tribes decide for themselves...and the Spirit Lake tribe did with their vote.


LINKY (http://www.allseminole.com/seminole-nation-news.html)xcoffeex


In response to the NCAA's proclamation that Native American names and logos will not be permitted by its member institutions unless the namesake tribe concurs, both the 3,100-member Seminole Tribe of Florida and the 6,000-member Seminole Nation of Oklahoma have officially approved the relationship and the details of the images used.

[darell1976]

LINKY (http://www.allseminole.com/seminole-nation-news.html)xcoffeex

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/other/2005-08-12-mascot-legislation_x.htm


"I think the NCAA made a big mistake here in not consulting with us or the Oklahoma Seminoles," Shore said. "And when they claimed the Oklahoma Seminoles were against it, it was only a few that were against it. They didn't get all their facts together. " ---quote from link

xoopsx

[NDB]

But what got me about JBB's post is that Sioux supporters are racists...so my 3 year old son who says go Sioux is a racist???

Sorry to tell you this, but probably...

[darell1976]

Sorry to tell you this, but probably...

So the 67% of voters on the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe are racists...go to Devils Lake and tell them that. xlolx

[NDB]

You and your son adhere to a stereotype of the Sioux people as great warriors, when in fact they are a diverse group of individuals. Hate to break it to you, but that's a third grade definition of racism.

The referendum by the Spirit Lake Tribe has no baring on the issue.

[UND92,96]

Gee, I can't believe this thread has deteriorated to arguing back and forth between UND and NDSU fans...xrolleyesx

[darell1976]

You and your son adhere to a stereotype of the Sioux people as great warriors, when in fact they are a diverse group of individuals. Hate to break it to you, but that's a third grade definition of racism.

The referendum by the Spirit Lake Tribe has no baring on the issue.

Again go to Devils Lake and tell the people that their tribe were never great warriors that they are just a diverse group of indiviuals and see what happens.xlolx

[darell1976]

Gee, I can't believe this thread has deteriorated to arguing back and forth between UND and NDSU fans...xrolleyesx

I like how the Bison fans are saying Sioux fans are racists...yet the rest of country aren't saying this. Amazing!!xlolx

[Native]

Its obviously not successful integration. The controversy surrounding the issue belies that statement. The forces that brought the issue to the forefront also speak against that statement.

With 2/3 majorities in favor of keeping the Sioux logo, it obviously could be the start of something successful if the elitists would listen to the voices of the people.

[darell1976]

With 2/3 majorities in favor of keeping the Sioux logo, it obviously could be the start of something successful if the elitists would listen to the voices of the people.

xthumbsupxxthumbsupx

[SpiderFan]

IF they have to change the nickname, what would they change it to?

[darell1976]

IF they have to change the nickname, what would they change it to?

I know Roughriders would be the most popular choice even Sioux opponent Ron His Horse Is Thunder suggested it since it has to do with Teddy Roosevelt and ND history. I personally would like to see Calvary. But I hope they choose something original not something every other school has.

[NDB]

Again go to Devils Lake and tell the people that their tribe were never great warriors that they are just a diverse group of indiviuals and see what happens.xlolx

What does that have to do with you stereotyping a group of people?

[Khan4Cats]

IF they have to change the nickname, what would they change it to?

Maybe they'll change it to something that isn't offensive like the other UND has. What's the predominant white population of North Dakota? Germans? Scandanavians? Fightin' Germans. I like it. Nope nothing offensive about using a white name.

And Calvary? Seriously? That wouldn't be MORE offensive to the Native Americans? Imagine the TV commercials to promote the school with that nickname-a great calvary charge across the plains of the Dakotas. Now what did they charge at again? Hmmm...

[onbison09]

Isn't making a horse look drunk with an Indian on it a racist stereotype?? But what got me about JBB's post is that Sioux supporters are racists...so my 3 year old son who says go Sioux is a racist??? What about Washington Redskin fans and Florida State fans (Seminole tribes in Oklahoma disapprove of the name) so the fans must be racist. I like how UND is such a bad place to go because of the name but yet the NCAA did NOT find one piece of evidence of harrassment or racism on campus. Let the Tribes decide for themselves...and the Spirit Lake tribe did with their vote.

Of course it was but don't act shocked when someone makes fun of your nickname.

[WestRiverBison]

In honor of Ron His Horse Is Thunder, UND should become the Thunder Horses. That would be a very unique and powerful nickname and would still have overtones of honoring the Native Americans which UND believes is important, in a non "hostile and abusive" manner.

[DaveK]

I know Roughriders would be the most popular choice even Sioux opponent Ron His Horse Is Thunder suggested it since it has to do with Teddy Roosevelt and ND history. I personally would like to see Calvary. But I hope they choose something original not something every other school has.

I still have optimism that the name can be saved, but if it has to go I would prefer to have our teams simply known as the "University of North Dakota football team", "University of North Dakota hockey team", etc...

I really feel very strongly that no nickname at all is better than any possible new nickname, but of all the replacement names that have been suggested I think Calvary is about the worst one.

[darell1976]

What does that have to do with you stereotyping a group of people?

You just said the Sioux are not great warriors so go to Devils Lake and tell a tribesman that your ancestors were not great warriors and you may be walking off the Rez with a severe limp. I am not stereotyping anyone. Our nickname the Fighting Sioux honors the Indian tribe of this state, 67% of the Spirit Lake tribe agrees plus many of the people of the Standing Rock agrees too. Peta hates the use of animals used as mascots maybe they will be knocking on NDSU's door.

[darell1976]

Of course it was but don't act shocked when someone makes fun of your nickname.

I don't its the same as Bison fans saying Sioux suck...us fans know you are talking about the team NOT the Sioux people of the state. But some idiots don't see the difference and thats their problem.

[darell1976]

I still have optimism that the name can be saved, but if it has to go I would prefer to have our teams simply known as the "University of North Dakota football team", "University of North Dakota hockey team", etc...

I really feel very strongly that no nickname at all is better than any possible new nickname, but of all the replacement names that have been suggested I think Calvary is about the worst one.

We cannot go without a nickname its not possible...at least marketable its not possible. And Calvary was just a suggestion but i can see how contraversial it is but we do need a nickname.

[NDB]

You just said the Sioux are not great warriors so go to Devils Lake and tell a tribesman that your ancestors were not great warriors and you may be walking off the Rez with a severe limp. I am not stereotyping anyone. Our nickname the Fighting Sioux honors the Indian tribe of this state, 67% of the Spirit Lake tribe agrees plus many of the people of the Standing Rock agrees too. Peta hates the use of animals used as mascots maybe they will be knocking on NDSU's door.

no, I'm saying not all Sioux are or were great warriors, there's a big difference.

I don't disagree that you intend to honor the Sioux, that again is something different.

[DaveK]

We cannot go without a nickname its not possible...at least marketable its not possible. And Calvary was just a suggestion but i can see how contraversial it is but we do need a nickname.

The way I see it no nickname would be innovative and groundbreaking. I don't buy into the theory that a team without a nickname is not marketable. Let's use Stanford as an example... how often do they use their nickname to market themselves? Although they technically have a nickname ("Cardinal", the color not the bird) they so seldom use it that they could just as well not even have a nickname.

They are simply known as Stanford first and foremost. Casual fans probably have to stop and think when asked what Stanford's nickname is. So using Stanford as a precedent... I suppose we could use "Kelly Green" as our nickname but market ourselves simply as "The University of North Dakota". I just feel that forcing a new nickname on the school would be way too drastic. Hopefully our friend Archie Fool Bear keeps fighting the good fight down at Standing Rock and this will soon all become a moot point.

[NDB]

I don't its the same as Bison fans saying Sioux suck...us fans know you are talking about the team NOT the Sioux people of the state. But some idiots don't see the difference and thats their problem.

That's right, because the University has co-opted the stereotype as its mascot.

[darell1976]

The way I see it no nickname would be innovative and groundbreaking. I don't buy into the theory that a team without a nickname is not marketable. Let's use Stanford as an example... how often do they use their nickname to market themselves? Although they technically have a nickname ("Cardinal", the color not the bird) they so seldom use it that they could just as well not even have a nickname.

They are simply known as Stanford first and foremost. Casual fans probably have to stop and think when asked what Stanford's nickname is. So using Stanford as a precedent... I suppose we could use "Kelly Green" as our nickname but market ourselves simply as "The University of North Dakota". I just feel that forcing a new nickname on the school would be way too drastic. Hopefully our friend Archie Fool Bear keeps fighting the good fight down at Standing Rock and this will soon all become a moot point.

Here come your Kelly and Green...that sucks!! I would go with Big Green but Dartmouth would oppose to that. A new name will grow on a person it just takes time. Just UND thats not going to cut it in the age of $$$$

[DaveK]

That's right, because the University has co-opted the stereotype as its mascot.

UND does not have a mascot.

[darell1976]

UND does not have a mascot.

They might if the name changes.xlolx

[darell1976]

IF they have to change the nickname, what would they change it to?

Does anyone know besides Indians what are enemys of the Bison that UND could become??

[JSUBison]

Does anyone know besides Indians what are enemys of the Bison that UND could become??

This has already been discussed a while ago. You already know the answer to what UND's mascot will become, my little firetruck friend.

[TwinTownBisonFan]

Go back to Flickertails... be sure to use plenty of pink. (you guys barely acknowledge its one of your colors)

I've said it before Roughriders is a better name on its own...

but hey, if you want to define you school by how it relates to NDSU - well, i can hardly blame ya.

[NDB]

There are dozens of parasites who rely on the Bison for their existence, not unlike how UND is infatuated with NDSU.

How about the UND Large-mouthed Bowel Worms.

or the Fighting Horn Flys?

I'm partial to the Raging Nasal Mites.

Of course, there's always the Terrifying Tapeworms.

[darell1976]

Go back to Flickertails... be sure to use plenty of pink. (you guys barely acknowledge its one of your colors)

I've said it before Roughriders is a better name on its own...

but hey, if you want to define you school by how it relates to NDSU - well, i can hardly blame ya.



I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth." These words were spoken by Theodore Roosevelt less than 15 years before he became President of the United States.

Still think Roughriders is a good idea??

[darell1976]

How about the Fighting Soo!!! With a Train as a logo...we can look like Purdue.xlolx

[jmc_jackrabbit]

I'm a big fan of UND athletics and think UND would be a fantastic addition to the Summit League. So I'm hopeful that something can be worked out. I don't dislike the no nickname idea at all, but I can understand the objections.

I just hope UND takes action soon and starts the process of building a new tradition so they can join us in the Summit League.

[MplsBison]

I'm a big fan of UND athletics and think UND would be a fantastic addition to the Summit League. So I'm hopeful that something can be worked out. I don't dislike the no nickname idea at all, but I can understand the objections.

I just hope UND takes action soon and starts the process of building a new tradition so they can join us in the Summit League.

I agree with this.

A fresh break from the nickname is the easiest, though maybe the least preferred by UND fans (and for good reason).

[darell1976]

I'm a big fan of UND athletics and think UND would be a fantastic addition to the Summit League. So I'm hopeful that something can be worked out. I don't dislike the no nickname idea at all, but I can understand the objections.

I just hope UND takes action soon and starts the process of building a new tradition so they can join us in the Summit League.

It may start in 2 weeks. I like your post UND needs a conference for basketball and the Summit is just waiting for the nickname issue to die. Looks like UND will go through another transition period, which according to the lawsuit has until Nov. 30th 2010 to be complete. And if some of you don't know the logos at the Engelstad Arena has to be removed but not all of them some are deemed too expensive to remove and will remain for historical value. So in some way the Fighting Sioux will live on.

[JohnStOnge]

You and your son adhere to a stereotype of the Sioux people as great warriors, when in fact they are a diverse group of individuals. Hate to break it to you, but that's a third grade definition of racism..

Oh for Pete's Sake! Good GRIEF. What about the diversity of Bison? Let's not be "speciesist" and forget that a Bison herd contains a diverse group of individuals.

Maybe we should just outlaw nicknames altogether.

[darell1976]

The new resolution left little room for doubt. A key provision says: "The Tribal Council hereby amends tribal resolution No. A05-09-186 and affirmatively approves and supports UND's use of the current nickname and related imagery, and hereby confirms Spirit Lake Tribe's full permission for UND to continue using the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo and the duration of this authorization shall be perpetual commencing Oct. 1, 2009."
The council also added this: "UND is entrusted with the responsibility of working cooperatively with the Spirit Lake Sioux Tribe to increase the number of Native American graduates from Spirit Lake and to create a Native American program on UND campus which will bring about an air of respect and understanding amongst all students, faculty and staff at UND."

From the Spirit Lake Sioux Nation.

This is what the NCAA wanted.xthumbsupx

[LetsGoSioux!]

This is EXCELLENT NEWS!!!!

[gjw007]

Oh for Pete's Sake! Good GRIEF....Maybe we should just outlaw nicknames altogether.
It has already started down that path.

[Pantherpower]

It has already started down that path.

After reading this thread and as an Irish-American, I'm inspired to drink a fifth of whiskey, march down to Indianapolis (headquarters of the NCAA) and demand the Fighting Irish be removed as mascot of Notre Dame!! If there's any resistance, I'll kick their asses!---oops, maybe a good name afterall!;)

[NC Aggie]

Personally I am glad UND will keep the name. Seems that there were 3rd party interests involved.

Now if Elon went back to the Fighting Christians..... Valpo still are the Crusaders ....

[Native]

Personally I am glad UND will keep the name. Seems that there were 3rd party interests involved.

Now if Elon went back to the Fighting Christians..... Valpo still are the Crusaders ....

Not so fast. Two branches of the tribe must approve use of the logo by 01 October. Only one branch, the "Spirit Lake" tribe, has done so, both by a vote of the people and the affirmation of the tribal council. In contrast, the tribal council leaders of the "Standing Rock" branch have voted 9-3 against allowing the logo and refused to allow their people to vote in a referendum.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/6624219.html

[dmksioux]

Seems as though the next couple of weeks could get interesting...Here is a link to the SL resolution

http://legacy.grandforksherald.com/pdfs/Spirit%20Lake%20Tribe%20Resolution.pdf

[dakotadan]

In honor of Ron His Horse Is Thunder, UND should become the Thunder Horses. That would be a very unique and powerful nickname and would still have overtones of honoring the Native Americans which UND believes is important, in a non "hostile and abusive" manner.

You mean Ron "His horse is white" McNeil?

[Thundering_Herd]

All boils down to money. If they didn't walk around all day with their hands out, they could actually work and make their own way instead of relying on us. Quit your bitching, get to work and shut up! You can already go to school (including UND) for free but how many choose to? Probably quite a few until they get there and realize that they have to apply themselves. Always blaming their problems on others,... sick of this debate and of crybabies xbawlingx!!!

Nothing to do with race, so it's perfect. My avitar,... that's your new mascot/logo! YOUR WELCOME!!!

xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

PS- DaveK, I'm still waiting on my pizza. Log out and get back to work!

[NDB]

Oh for Pete's Sake! Good GRIEF. What about the diversity of Bison? Let's not be "speciesist" and forget that a Bison herd contains a diverse group of individuals.

Maybe we should just outlaw nicknames altogether.

Um, Bison aren't people...

[darell1976]

Um, Bison aren't people... They are mammals like people.xlolx