Can Anybody Explain Why the Ivy League

[WileECoyote06]

Is rated higher than the OVC, PL, MEAC, Big South, and NEC, and SWAC in the Sagarin ratings?

They haven't even opened their season yet.

How are they always regarded so highly?

[danefan]

Is rated higher than the OVC, PL, MEAC, Big South, and NEC, and SWAC in the Sagarin ratings?

They haven't even opened their season yet.

How are they always regarded so highly?

A question no one can answer my friend and one that I've been trying to figure out for years.

[89Hen]

They get ranked every year without playing anyone of consequence, so it would make sense that the fewer games they play, the more highly they should be ranked. xeyebrowx

[NHwildEcat]

Is rated higher than the OVC, PL, MEAC, Big South, and NEC, and SWAC in the Sagarin ratings?

They haven't even opened their season yet.

How are they always regarded so highly?

It is beacause their season hasn't opened yet that they are rated so high!

[WileECoyote06]

They get ranked every year without playing anyone of consequence, so it would make sense that the fewer games they play, the more highly they should be ranked. xeyebrowx

xlolx Uh-uh.

[Panther88]

Is rated higher than the OVC, PL, MEAC, Big South, and NEC, and SWAC in the Sagarin ratings?

They haven't even opened their season yet.

How are they always regarded so highly?

For the same reason why certain folx in the SLC and UnivDel cannot justify why they wouldn't rank a somewhat better SWAC squad in any FCS top-25 poll. :D

It's the same stupid thought process in motion while using "sagarin" as a crutch.

[Pard4Life]

Strength of schedule and opponents is likely taken into account. The top Ivy teams would compete for the national title if they participated in the playoffs. The 2004 Harvard team could have won the national title. Penn and Yale are also top teams, and occasionally Princeton. These are de facto scholarship programs, remember, with national reach.

[carney2]

Let's try an exercise in logic:

1. The Ivys do not play against teams that are generally thought of as "good."

2. Only "good" programs should be ranked.

3. If you do not play against "good" teams you cannot be "good."

4. If you "cannot be good," you should not be ranked.

Does anyone besides me see a disconnect here?

Now, let's go for a reality check:

1. The Ivys - particularly Harvard, Penn, Princeton and Yale - recruit some very good players - players who could have chosen to play for FBS schools. As some of you may know, I dabble in recruiting information and statistics. I can't tell you how often I will see something like this next to a prospect's name: "Schools being considered: California, Princeton, Stanford, Arizona State."

2. Many of the Ivys are now giving football scholarships even if they are not called that. Many of these schools offer free educations to all incoming students whose family income is below a certain amount. You can say "that isn't a football scholarship," but free is free.

3. It is very difficult to recruit against that Ivy aura and academic reputation. Frank Tavani, the head coach at Lafayette, said a few years ago that he has never won a head to head recruiting battle with these schools. Let's face it folks, Harvard is one of those few schools in the land (they used to be called the "six pack" back when my kids were looking at colleges) where their name on your diploma is worth more than yours.

4. Finally, and most importantly, many of the voters in these polls are quite knowledgeable and truly do know what is going on.

If this deflates you, take heart. You get your "revenge" in one way: you have not seen and, in the current way of doing things probably never will see, an Ivy in the top 10. That apparently is reserved exclusively for the big kids from the CAA, SoCon and Big Sky.

[bluehenbillk]

Ohio Valley, Patriot, NEC, Big South, MEAC, SWAC, oh yeah the "power" leagues....xcoffeex

[danefan]

Let's try an exercise in logic:

1. The Ivys do not play against teams that are generally thought of as "good."

2. Only "good" programs should be ranked.

3. If you do not play against "good" teams you cannot be "good."

4. If you "cannot be good," you should not be ranked.

Does anyone besides me see a disconnect here?

Now, let's go for a reality check:

1. The Ivys - particularly Harvard, Penn, Princeton and Yale - recruit some very good players - players who could have chosen to play for FBS schools. As some of you may know, I dabble in recruiting information and statistics. I can't tell you how often I will see something like this next to a prospect's name: "Schools being considered: California, Princeton, Stanford, Arizona State."

2. Many of the Ivys are now giving football scholarships even if they are not called that. Many of these schools offer free educations to all incoming students whose family income is below a certain amount. You can say "that isn't a football scholarship," but free is free.

3. It is very difficult to recruit against that Ivy aura and academic reputation. Frank Tavani, the head coach at Lafayette, said a few years ago that he has never won a head to head recruiting battle with these schools. Let's face it folks, Harvard is one of those few schools in the land (they used to be called the "six pack" back when my kids were looking at colleges) where their name on your diploma is worth more than yours.

4. Finally, and most importantly, many of the voters in these polls are quite knowledgeable and truly do know what is going on.

If this deflates you, take heart. You get your "revenge" in one way: you have not seen and, in the current way of doing things probably never will see, an Ivy in the top 10. That apparently is reserved exclusively for the big kids from the CAA, SoCon and Big Sky.


So we're just supposed to take your word for it?

I've seen many many Ivy league games both in conference and out of conference (aka against the PL) and there is absolutely no on-field difference between the Ivy league and the PL, NEC, Big South, etc.....

And your logic is flawed above for voters.

My Ivy logic is as follows:

1. Ivy league teams don't look like Top 25 teams on the field when they play against each other. So league games don't do it for me.
2. Ivy league teams don't play anyone but themselves and the PL. In the last few years, the PL has had trouble against anyone OOC except the Ivy and NEC (changing as evidenced this year) and is thus not a top FCS conference. As such, the OOC games don't do it for me.
3. So I'm left considering an Ivy team based solely on reputation?

Sorry but that's the disconnect.

[GannonFan]

Strength of schedule and opponents is likely taken into account. The top Ivy teams would compete for the national title if they participated in the playoffs. The 2004 Harvard team could have won the national title. Penn and Yale are also top teams, and occasionally Princeton. These are de facto scholarship programs, remember, with national reach.

The thing is, we'll never know and we'll never even have a decent barometer on which to measure. Since the Ivy League only plays against themselves and the Patriot League, and since the PL has fallen off the national radar, there's no way to judge the Ivy League. They could be fantastic, or they could be the MEAC. We'll just never know.

[bluehenbillk]

Does it really matter? The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs anyway.

[danefan]

Does it really matter? The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs anyway.

It only matters in messageboardworld

[Ivytalk]

A question no one can answer my friend and one that I've been trying to figure out for years.


They get ranked every year without playing anyone of consequence, so it would make sense that the fewer games they play, the more highly they should be ranked. xeyebrowx

Can you make wine out of all those sour grapes?xrolleyesx

[danefan]

Can you make wine out of all those sour grapes?xrolleyesx

Yes and because it will carry the Ivy name on the label it will automatically be more expensive and will start with a higher rating before one drop even hits the sommelier's lips. xsmiley_wix

[WestCoastAggie]

The thing is, we'll never know and we'll never even have a decent barometer on which to measure. Since the Ivy League only plays against themselves and the Patriot League, and since the PL has fallen off the national radar, there's no way to judge the Ivy League. They could be fantastic, or they could be the MEAC. We'll just never know.
WTF does that mean??? xeyebrowx

[GannonFan]

WTF does that mean??? xeyebrowx

xlolx:pxlolx

[WestCoastAggie]

xlolx:pxlolx
We, the MEAC will start to earn respect from you pundits starting this weekendxwhistlex

[Ivytalk]

We, the MEAC will start to earn respect from you pundits starting this weekendxwhistlex

Not in Delaware you won't!:D:p

[WestCoastAggie]

Not in Delaware you won't!:D:p
The MEAC doesn't clain DSU this week xlolx

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

It only matters in messageboardworld


But I live in messageboardworld....

[GannonFan]

We, the MEAC will start to earn respect from you pundits starting this weekendxwhistlex

We've been waiting almost 10 years for the MEAC to start earning respect again. I'd love it if they became competitive again. But apparently me wanting it hasn't made it happen. xlolx

[Big Al]

We've been waiting almost 10 years for the MEAC to start earning respect again. I'd love it if they became competitive again. But apparently me wanting it hasn't made it happen. xlolx

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't SC State put a scare in App State in the playoffs last year? Judging by their first 2 scores, I'd say they're a team to watch.

Del State, on the other hand...

[GannonFan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't SC State put a scare in App State in the playoffs last year? Judging by their first 2 scores, I'd say they're a team to watch.

Del State, on the other hand...

Scares are great - wins are better. When was the last significant OOC, non-SWAC related win by the MEAC? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for them to be successul, but wishing it to happen and having it happen are two different things.

[WestCoastAggie]

Scares are great - wins are better. When was the last significant OOC, non-SWAC related win by the MEAC? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for them to be successul, but wishing it to happen and having it happen are two different things.
Well while we do have teams earning some national respect, the damn conference commish is considering forgoing the damn playoffs all together and playing a MEAC Champ. Game and then playing the SWAC champ in a damn game for the MYTHICAL "BLACK COLLEGE FOOTBALL NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" xeyebrowx xconfusedx xlolx xsmhx

[GannonFan]

Well while we do have teams earning some national respect, the damn conference commish is considering forgoing the damn playoffs all together and playing a MEAC Champ. Game and then playing the SWAC champ in a damn game for the MYTHICAL "BLACK COLLEGE FOOTBALL NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP" xeyebrowx xconfusedx xlolx xsmhx

Wasn't there talk as well about a 9 game conference mandate, like what the SWAC did before?

Hey, nothing wrong with what the SWAC does - they're happy they way they are setup and to each their own. But if you want to measure up against the rest of the FCS and win national respect on the field, you need to do it on the field. But if the MEAC wants to go that direction, hey, to each their own.

[WestCoastAggie]

Wasn't there talk as well about a 9 game conference mandate, like what the SWAC did before?

Hey, nothing wrong with what the SWAC does - they're happy they way they are setup and to each their own. But if you want to measure up against the rest of the FCS and win national respect on the field, you need to do it on the field. But if the MEAC wants to go that direction, hey, to each their own.
But not all the schools are on board with that idea (SCSU, FAMU, A&T) nor have we heard anything of a champ. game from the confrence presidents so everything is in the dark.

It would be a bad day for FCS if something like this happens. we don't need another Conference like the SWAC & IVY

[JohnStOnge]

It's called Bayesian statistics. I think it's a croc. Bayesian statistics means you factor in your belief. When you see the Sagarin ratings get to the point in the season where they quit saying the ratings are Bayesian, you will have reached the point where the ratings are based strictly on what's actually happened this season.

[WileECoyote06]

It's called Bayesian statistics. I think it's a croc. Bayesian statistics means you factor in your belief. When you see the Sagarin ratings get to the point in the season where they quit saying the ratings are Bayesian, you will have reached the point where the ratings are based strictly on what's actually happened this season.

That's the type of answer I'm looking for. Thanks! xthumbsupx

BTW, the last time the MEAC played the Ivys (4th place teams against each other) it was somewhere around 48 - 27. xcoffeex.

[bulldog10jw]

The Ivys, particularly Yale, Harvard, and Princeton get a certain amount of respect, in some quarters, for inventing the game.

[R.A.]

I can't believe Dr. Harvey down at Hampton wants the MEAC to give up our Automatic Playoff Bid.

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

Strength of schedule and opponents is likely taken into account. The top Ivy teams would compete for the national title if they participated in the playoffs. The 2004 Harvard team could have won the national title. Penn and Yale are also top teams, and occasionally Princeton. These are de facto scholarship programs, remember, with national reach.

Woah, hold on "Pard-ner." Since the late '70's due to tuition costs and a host of other issues, ..... the Ivies have been on a pretty steady downward slide. I agree with your last statement that the Ivies still do have national reach (just check out any of the league's rosters) and can steal a kid from the big time here and there, .... that is why you see Ivy grads in the NFL.

However, to state that the top Ivy teams would compete for a national title right now is a little over the top. Factually, a lack of depth as a result of no scholarships wears them them down significantly as the season reaches its 11th week. Secondly, the general lack of quality opponents week in and week out limits player and team development. Thirdly, lack of defensive linemen of high quality (amongst other talent shortfalls) would severely limit their foray into any post-season action.

If the Ivies were given the go-ahead, I would project an immediate upswing in talent (even brainiacs like championship fever) across the top 4-5 programs. But, it is not there in any consistent manner right now.

Murph has done a great job at Harvard, but even his 2004 team is not competing for a national title under any, but the most unexpected of surprise circumstances.

[bonarae]

Woah, hold on "Pard-ner." Since the late '70's due to tuition costs and a host of other issues, ..... the Ivies have been on a pretty steady downward slide. I agree with your last statement that the Ivies still do have national reach (just check out any of the league's rosters) and can steal a kid from the big time here and there, .... that is why you see Ivy grads in the NFL.

However, to state that the top Ivy teams would compete for a national title right now is a little over the top. Factually, a lack of depth as a result of no scholarships wears them them down significantly as the season reaches its 11th week. Secondly, the general lack of quality opponents week in and week out limits player and team development. Thirdly, lack of defensive linemen of high quality (amongst other talent shortfalls) would severely limit their foray into any post-season action.

If the Ivies were given the go-ahead, I would project an immediate upswing in talent (even brainiacs like championship fever) across the top 4-5 programs. But, it is not there in any consistent manner right now.

Murph has done a great job at Harvard, but even his 2004 team is not competing for a national title under any, but the most unexpected of surprise circumstances.

Yes. True. I think to bring Ivy football back in the spotlight, everything needs to be overhauled - from the Presidents' opinions to the scheduling.
I think when we open up to other opponents (especially FBS ones whose programs have had struggled like Tulane and Stanford and also the winning programs like USC and Ohio State), they will appreciate us going back to football reality.

Before the Ivy League was organized in 1954, we played for a number of National Championships, produced innumerable All-Americans and Heisman Trophy winners, especially before WWI and between the two World Wars and played big-time opponents like Michigan and Notre Dame. Now, it has trickled down to scheduling Northeast FCS opponents (though this trend is no longer common as we now schedule teams like San Diego), FCS All-Americans and a number of post-graduate scholarship awards.

To make it simple, Ivy football needs a total and extensive overhaul to bring it back into the spotlight.

[ngineer]

But in terms of the subject at hand, I believe most who are close to the system (i.e. coaches) are fully aware of the talent levels other teams/conferences have. They recruit against each other and see who is getting whom. The top echelon of the IL can and do walk into any living room in America and recruit with the big boys. If the grades are there, you will see a Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Penn going after some of the same players Stanford, USC, Penn State, etc. are. Do they get them most of the time? no. Some of the time? yes. In the meantime, they are able to beat out most of the FCS schools in head to head recruiting, so long as the player is admissable. Currently, Harvard's 'free ride' is a family with income under $180,000. Makes it near impossible for a Lehigh or Lafayette to go against that since we'd go bankrupt overnight.
So alot of the rankings at this stage of the season is based on what is 'known' about certain teams based upon information other than what has occured on the field. It all works its way out over the course of the season as we get to see the real product. This weekend Harvard will be tested by Holy Cross, and Villanova goes against Penn. Good measuring sticks.

[igo4uni]

But I live in messageboardworld....

It's a happy place!!

[UNI Pike]

Does it really matter? The Ivy League doesn't participate in the playoffs anyway.

Same thing could be said about the OVC

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is rated higher than the OVC, PL, MEAC, Big South, and NEC, and SWAC in the Sagarin ratings?

They haven't even opened their season yet.

How are they always regarded so highly?

No schools in the leagues listed have a single impressive OOC win. None have beaten an FBS team. None have beaten a team from the CAA. Only Eastern Illinois has beat teams from the Missouri Valley, and even then those that they beat were the dregs of that league (Indiana State, Illinois State). Only Grambling beat a team from the Southland, and even that team is an awful team (N'Western State).

While the Ivies haven't played a game yet, they do have 2-3 schools that are considered to be possible Top 25 material. If scholarships are the measure, certainly H-Y-P have a functional equivalent of "scholarships" (if they can get in and make less than $120,000 a year, they're getting in free).

Harvard is hard to gauge since the only teams they play OOC are three PL teams: Lehigh, Lafayette, and Holy Cross. Lehigh has struggled the past two years, while they've dominated Lafayette (who spent time in the Top 25 last year) and they've played Holy Cross in two thrilling games the last two years. Worst case, they are about the same as Holy Cross, i.e. a Top 25 school.

Penn has played Villanova for the last five years or so, and four of those games came down to the last quarter and two down to the last play. Penn has been .500, but was able to hang with a 10-3 team last year. That has to be a consideration.

Brown were Ivy League co-champs, beat Stony Brook but got outpointed by Holy Cross and URI last year. Holy Cross was a top 25 team or darned close to it, and while the loss to URI was not good they are still a CAA team.

Short answer is: the Ivies are hard to handicap since they don't play many OOC teams outside of the Ivy League. But those who play them know that they are good, and deserve to be there. Anyone who just throws out a blanket statement that "the Ivies are not good as good as the Big South or MEAC" need to either look more closely or get their heads examined. The Ivies are not the CAA or MVFC, but they are damned good.

[DFW HOYA]

Within the last 2-3 years, the Ivy has passed the Patriot (which is usually good for a top 25 team every year) so in that sense the Ivy should get the credit.

Of course, we may be saying the same thing about the NEC in a year or two.

[Ivytalk]

Short answer is: the Ivies are hard to handicap since they don't play many OOC teams outside of the Ivy League. But those who play them know that they are good, and deserve to be there. Anyone who just throws out a blanket statement that "the Ivies are not good as good as the Big South or MEAC" need to either look more closely or get their heads examined. The Ivies are not the CAA or MVFC, but they are damned good.

Very well said! Reppies!xthumbsupxxbowx

[GannonFan]

Within the last 2-3 years, the Ivy has passed the Patriot (which is usually good for a top 25 team every year) so in that sense the Ivy should get the credit.

Of course, we may be saying the same thing about the NEC in a year or two.

Actually, I think we're already saying that about the NEC. xthumbsupx

[WestCoastAggie]

Very well said! Reppies!xthumbsupxxbowx

So we are just going to forget what happened when a MEAC school played an IVY, huh? xeyebrowx

[Ivytalk]

So we are just going to forget what happened when a MEAC school played an IVY, huh? xeyebrowx

What, when Hampton beat Princeton a couple years back? So what's your point?xcoffeex

[WestCoastAggie]

What, when Hampton beat Princeton a couple years back? So what's your point?xcoffeex

THE POINT IS: The MEAC and The MIGHTY IVY are closer football-wise then you might want or care to believe, good sir. ;)

[Ivytalk]

THE POINT IS: The MEAC and The MIGHTY IVY are closer football-wise then you might want or care to believe, good sir. ;)

Never said otherwise. I gave reps to LFN's post because he was defending Ivy play against those who attacked it for various reasons, including breadth of OOC schedules. Harvard's never played a MEAC school -- just checked the media guide -- but it has played non-PL opponents in the not-too-distant past, including Northeastern, William & Mary, Army and UMass. I'd like to see Harvard play Howard, myself. That seems like the likeliest MEAC foe for Harvard IMHO.

[WestCoastAggie]

Never said otherwise. I gave reps to LFN's post because he was defending Ivy play against those who attacked it for various reasons, including breadth of OOC schedules. Harvard's never played a MEAC school -- just checked the media guide -- but it has played non-PL opponents in the not-too-distant past, including Northeastern, William & Mary, Army and UMass. I'd like to see Harvard play Howard, myself. That seems like the likeliest MEAC foe for Harvard IMHO.

We need a few IVY/MEAC match-ups in the near future, IMHO. A Princeton/Hampton rematch or Harvard/FAMU or Cornell/Howard would be cool. xnodx

[WileECoyote06]

Never said otherwise. I gave reps to LFN's post because he was defending Ivy play against those who attacked it for various reasons, including breadth of OOC schedules. Harvard's never played a MEAC school -- just checked the media guide -- but it has played non-PL opponents in the not-too-distant past, including Northeastern, William & Mary, Army and UMass. I'd like to see Harvard play Howard, myself. That seems like the likeliest MEAC foe for Harvard IMHO.

Harvard vs Howard? Not until they can rebuild their program to be at least competitive. . . xeyebrowx

[Harvard Worship]

Hey I think it would be awesome to play FAMU. We could finally get a half-time show the spectators can hear. Either I'm going deaf or Harvard's 30-musician band keeps getting fainter. Plus we can't seem to figure out how to march (but at least we're not as obnoxious as Y and esp P).

Hey & look on the bright side of Ivy League teams being ranked despite playing no games: YOU GUYS HAVE ALL HAD THE PLEASURE OF SEEING YOUR TEAMS PLAY FOOTBALL ALREADY. Plus you get 11 games and the possibility of a post-season. We all have to wait 2 weeks & then get 1 or more fewer games to boot. How fair is that?

[Ivytalk]

Harvard vs Howard? Not until they can rebuild their program to be at least competitive. . . xeyebrowx

I was just thinking of the historic traditions of the two schools. Isn't Howard one of the oldest MEAC schools? I seem to recall that it was founded right after the Civil War.xreadx

[WileECoyote06]

I was just thinking of the historic traditions of the two schhols. Isn't Howard one of the oldest MEAC schools? I seem to recall that it was founded right after the Civil War.xreadx

Oh I got your sentiment. It is a natural rivalry fit. But Howard really sucks right now and Harvard seems to be peaking.