Ivy League Conspiracy Theories

[401ks]

It has come to my attention that a few people seem to believe that the Ivy League offers (in direct defiance of the Ivy League's own rules) need-based athletic grants-in-aid to athletes that are not available to the general student population. (Similar to the Patriot League)

In addition, these conspiracy theorists seem to believe that it is the "secretive" nature of the Ivy League (read: "Skull & Bones Society") that hides these financial dealings from the NCAA, and even the other member institutions of the Ivy League.

I don't mind a good conspiracy theory now and then, however...

Aside from OPINIONS, does anyone have any PROOF that any Ivy League institution is offering athletic grants-in-aid (need-based or otherwise) that are not available to the general student population?

Inquiring minds want to know!

xnodx

[Big Al]

I'm trying to figure out why they'd ever engage in such skullduiggery -- only so they can maintain the appearance of "no scholly" virginity?

Seems mighty silly to me.

[Husky Alum]

Aside from OPINIONS, does anyone have any PROOF that any Ivy League institution is offering athletic grants-in-aid (need-based or otherwise) that are not available to the general student population?

Inquiring minds want to know!

xnodx

Yes, when I was recruited to play at three different Ivy league schools, I had grants in aid that magically disappeared when I tore my knee and couldn't play there.

Somehow, my "coded" applications got put in the same pile as the general student population.

Now this was 1987-88, but I still have the letters from these institutions with my aid packages.

[OLPOP]

401- You're kidding, right?

[dgreco]

IDK if its real, but I will say the NE10 was a non-scholarship/non-aid conference similar to the ivies (in football only) and I met people at Bryant, Assumption, Merrimack, and Bentley and all said they were receiving "Scholarships". I fought saying they were lying to sound cool, but I heard it at many of the NE-10 schools and through numerous people at some of the schools. So I wouldn't complete throw it out as false.

[CFBfan]

Lorenzo Perry paid only $2000.00 a year to attend Bryant. Also Jamie Silva {Boston College, Indy colts} was offered to pay only $5000.00 a year to attend Brown and almost did until BC called and offered him a full.

Bryant is a scholarship program

[401ks]

401- You're kidding, right?

Unfortunately, I am quite serious.

The conspiracy theorists are EXTREMELY serious.

I have just been involved in an exchange of PMs with one of the conspiracy theorists who refused to offer any proof of his claim, then proceded to call my PMs that asked for proof a "tirade" and "hateful"! xrolleyesx

A couple of quotes from two of his PMs to me:

"For one the Ivies are so secret that their full workings are unknown... It's just so muddled and secret with the Ivies, they like it that way."

"Until the Ivy League schools and conference are transparent then they cannot be seen as only what their public statements say. Example, dictators often say they have free elections. Do you think it is wrong to question that?"

xeekx

I repeat: Yes, I am serious (unfortunately).

[TheValleyRaider]

Unfortunately, I am quite serious.

The conspiracy theorists are EXTREMELY serious.

I have just been involved in an exchange of PMs with one of the conspiracy theorists who refused to offer any proof of his claim, then proceded to call my PMs that asked for proof a "tirade" and "hateful"! xrolleyesx

A couple of quotes from two of his PMs to me:

"For one the Ivies are so secret that their full workings are unknown... It's just so muddled and secret with the Ivies, they like it that way."

"Until the Ivy League schools and conference are transparent then they cannot be seen as only what their public statements say. Example, dictators often say they have free elections. Do you think it is wrong to question that?"

xeekx

I repeat: Yes, I am serious (unfortunately).

Regarding the bold, I have to say I've never met an unserious conspiracy theorist... xchinscratchx xlolx

I think the comparison of the Ivies to dictators is more than a bit silly. I suppose if they are awarding special aid to athletes, it goes against their own policy, but as far as I know doesn't violate any rules outside those of the Ivy League. If that's the case, why the need to get up in arms over what appears to be a relatively benign (if not altogether silly) form of institutional gamesmanship? xconfusedx


I'm trying to figure out why they'd ever engage in such skullduiggery -- only so they can maintain the appearance of "no scholly" virginity?

Seems mighty silly to me.

I think you've actually rather penetrated the thought process behind it.... xreadx

[Ivytalk]

It has come to my attention that a few people seem to believe that the Ivy League offers (in direct defiance of the Ivy League's own rules) need-based athletic grants-in-aid to athletes that are not available to the general student population. (Similar to the Patriot League)

In addition, these conspiracy theorists seem to believe that it is the "secretive" nature of the Ivy League (read: "Skull & Bones Society") that hides these financial dealings from the NCAA, and even the other member institutions of the Ivy League.

I don't mind a good conspiracy theory now and then, however...

anyone have any Aside from OPINIONS, does PROOF that any Ivy League institution is offering athletic grants-in-aid (need-based or otherwise) that are not available to the general student population?
Inquiring minds want to know!

xnodx

Never heard of that one. But the Ivies are willing to "look the other way" on academics (grades, board scores) to get athletes that they want. I used to interview Harvard applicants, and I've witnessed it firsthand.xcoolxxwhistlex

[401ks]

401- You're kidding, right?

I am not kidding.

I can't say anything more. My first answer to your post was removed.

Did you know that there was a rule in the AGS TOS that says you can't quote from a PM or share it with anyone (even though there is a "FORWARD" button on the PM screen)?

Actually, there isn't such a rule that is written in the TOS.

It must be like the "double secret probation" in Animal House!

xlolx

[dgreco]

Bryant is a scholarship program

Now they may be but not when they were in the NE-10.

[danefan]

I too don't understand this theory, but I recognize that some people here think this way. Surprisingly, its not the Ivy league fans and alumni.

The Ivy league policy is to not award athletic based aid. Plain and simple.

Now that's not to say they don't get their athletes through the financial aid office a bit smoother than the general student body, but that is no different than any other school dealing with a recruit who isn't getting a scholarship.

[Franks Tanks]

It has come to my attention that a few people seem to believe that the Ivy League offers (in direct defiance of the Ivy League's own rules) need-based athletic grants-in-aid to athletes that are not available to the general student population. (Similar to the Patriot League)

In addition, these conspiracy theorists seem to believe that it is the "secretive" nature of the Ivy League (read: "Skull & Bones Society") that hides these financial dealings from the NCAA, and even the other member institutions of the Ivy League.

I don't mind a good conspiracy theory now and then, however...

Aside from OPINIONS, does anyone have any PROOF that any Ivy League institution is offering athletic grants-in-aid (need-based or otherwise) that are not available to the general student population?

Inquiring minds want to know!

xnodx

If an Ivy school really wants a recruit they will make it affordable for the student athlete period. Lafayette worked in the same way in the Bill Russo days. You dont ask questions, you just take the aid.

[danefan]

If an Ivy school really wants a recruit they will make it affordable for the student athlete period. Lafayette worked in the same way in the Bill Russo days. You dont ask questions, you just take the aid.

Exactly. But that's no different than any other school, including the PFL. xthumbsupx

[Franks Tanks]

Exactly. But that's no different than any other school, including the PFL. xthumbsupx

True, but other schools make it simple by providing athletic merit aid.

[ngineer]

Not sure what happens in the IL, but I do know that a few years ago Lembo was grousing about losing a recruit to Penn because of Penn offering more money, yet, if based on the 'need formula' Penn shouldn't have been able to offer him any more than Lehigh.

[Redwyn]

Not sure what happens in the IL, but I do know that a few years ago Lembo was grousing about losing a recruit to Penn because of Penn offering more money, yet, if based on the 'need formula' Penn shouldn't have been able to offer him any more than Lehigh.

I wonder....Since these schools are private...Can't they simply "not charge" someone tuition? It's not governed by anything I'm aware of, and doesn't have to be a scholarship. It's just a school decision not to charge a student (thin line I know...but I'm sure there's a distinction there)....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It has come to my attention that a few people seem to believe that the Ivy League offers (in direct defiance of the Ivy League's own rules) need-based athletic grants-in-aid to athletes that are not available to the general student population. (Similar to the Patriot League)

Quite a few people believe that Saddam sat down with Al Queida to plan the attacks on the WTC, too. Not to be flip, but it would seem to me that these people don't totally understand how the PL and IL work in terms of aid.

The Ivy League offers extremely generous financial aid to all comers. If your family makes less that $100K a year and your kid can make it into the school, you can get your way paid whether you can throw a football 60 yards across your body or not.

In this day and age, if you can get in, the same aid is available to cellists as well as centers. So this argument that the athlete can't get aid that 's "available to the general student population" by definition can't hold water - it's available to everyone.

This is different than admission, which for any school is to some degree a dark art. If you condemned any school for losing interest in an athlete because they got hurt, there wouldn't be an uncondemned school in the entire NCAA.


In addition, these conspiracy theorists seem to believe that it is the "secretive" nature of the Ivy League (read: "Skull & Bones Society") that hides these financial dealings from the NCAA, and even the other member institutions of the Ivy League.

Since all athletic-related aid is not limited by being an athlete, the expenses don't reflect in the athletics spending report - the expense on "athletically related student aid is $0". Those expenses are shown instead on financial aid reports for the entire school. It's not like the money is going to re-election funds of George P. Bush and John Kerry. xpeacex

[TheValleyRaider]

I wonder....Since these schools are private...Can't they simply "not charge" someone tuition? It's not governed by anything I'm aware of, and doesn't have to be a scholarship. It's just a school decision not to charge a student (thin line I know...but I'm sure there's a distinction there)....

Actually, some of the Ivies are doing that now. Pressure from the outside has them using their endowments (which dwarf the GDP of a developing nation) to cover tuition for lower-income applicants

I'm not certain on the specifics regarding each school, but I think you can get a free Harvard education if your parents make $60,000 a year or less (you still have to get in, of course)

[Model Citizen]

So this argument that the athlete can't get aid that 's "available to the general student population" by definition can't hold water - it's available to everyone.

That's the exact opposite of what he said. He said this:


It has come to my attention that a few people seem to believe that the Ivy League offers (in direct defiance of the Ivy League's own rules) need-based athletic grants-in-aid to athletes that are not available to the general student population. (Similar to the Patriot League)

Aid not available to the general student population. As in extra athletic aid. Like the Patriot League offers. Got it?

[jimbo65]

This goes back over 20 years but I personally know two guys who were contributors to major sports at Harvard. They paid zero for four years. While I certainly don't know the parents financials, these were not "poor" families from "the wrong side of the tracks" so to speak. I asked one about the supposed lack of scholarshps and got a smile for an answer. This fellow was also an excellent student and went on to Law, so I imagine the aid, or some portion thereof, could have been based on academics. The other one, no way.

Whatever, the Ivies can do what they want as long as it is in accord with NCAA regs. Their approach, however, may be disingenious.

[bkrownd]

I'm not certain on the specifics regarding each school, but I think you can get a free Harvard education if your parents make $60,000 a year or less (you still have to get in, of course)

Eh? Is that considered 'poor' these days? I don't even make close to that working for them. Should I feel insulted? A decade and grad school and memories of my mother working as a receptionist for $12k a year still make every dollar feel like a fortune. ;)

[401ks]

For those of you who have wondered, this is the post that brought out the conspiracy theorist(s) and started me on this silly odyssey in search of the truth:

08-29-2009, 11:58 AM post #6
401ks

PFL and Ivy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great job, CSN!

One minor gripe, however...

"The Pioneer Football League is the only true non-scholarship conference in Division I."

Why does this falsehood keep getting repeated?

The Pioneer Football League has the exact same financial aid structure as the Ivy League, with no athletic scholarships for football whatsoever.

Let me repeat...

The Pioneer Football League has the EXACT SAME financial aid structure as the Ivy League.

The proper statement is:

"The Pioneer Football League and the Ivy League are the only true non-scholarship football conferences in Division I."

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62790

[Model Citizen]

xthumbsupx

Stay thirsty, my friend.

[401ks]

xthumbsupx

Stay thirsty, my friend.

xprost2x

[401ks]

For those of you who have been wondering why I started this thread, here is the original post that started this whole silly quest for the truth:

08-29-2009, 11:58 AM post #6
401ks

PFL and Ivy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great job, CSN!

One minor gripe, however...

"The Pioneer Football League is the only true non-scholarship conference in Division I."

Why does this falsehood keep getting repeated?

The Pioneer Football League has the exact same financial aid structure as the Ivy League, with no athletic scholarships for football whatsoever.

Let me repeat...

The Pioneer Football League has the EXACT SAME financial aid structure as the Ivy League.

The proper statement is:

"The Pioneer Football League and the Ivy League are the only true non-scholarship football conferences in Division I."

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1391976#post1391976

[401ks]

Aside from OPINIONS, does anyone have any PROOF that any Ivy League institution is offering athletic grants-in-aid (need-based or otherwise) that are not available to the general student population?

I guess not!

Why am I not surprised?

xrolleyesx

I know that at least one of the conspiracy theorists frequents this forum and has read this thread, but could not offer any proof of his allegations in a public forum just as he was unable to offer any proof in a private message (that "netiquette" prevents me from sharing).

We can all rest assured that if we were to read an article somewhere that implies that the Ivy League is NOT a true non-scholarship conference (per the rules of the Ivy League itself and the guidelines of the NCAA), the author of that article is unfortunately mistaken and misinformed.

Case closed.

Now let's all move on to enjoy another season of great FCS football!! xhurrayx


xpeacex

[Husky Alum]

Let's say you want to endow a need based grant for a student at an Ivy - can't you write your deed of gift to restrict the recipient to a certain program, characteristic or field of study?

If I had $10 million, and called Yale and said "here's $10 million for academic assistance, only caveat is that you give it to a Jewish football player - if you can't do this, Southern Connecticut gets the money" - are they going to say no? I'm 99.99% sure that a large component of my aid from one Ivy (and yes, my folks didn't make a lot, so one could argue it was 'need' based) was from a donor who had his money earmarked for a "Jewish football player". Heck, I met the guy who funded the gift.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Game-Inside-Athletic-Recruiting/dp/0972202668

Playing the Game: Inside Athletic Recruiting in the Ivy League


From Publishers Weekly
You don't need an Ivy League education to appreciate Lincoln's in-depth look at recruiting in this elite conference, but it helps. ... Another important factor Lincoln examines in the recruiting wars is financial aid. Since Harvard, Yale and Princeton have the largest endowments, they are better positioned to secure the students they have targeted. In this sound book, Lincoln finds that while the recruiting process is cleaner than most other Division I conferences, the Ivy League is not without its own problems.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

While the aid is available to everyone, all the schools do not figure out aid in the same way. And some schools are richer than others, meaning more aid is available at H-Y-P than other Ivies.

Let me pose a philosophical question, one that gets to the heart of this whole silly sideshow. If a kid doesn't pay for school, and plays football, does that make him a "scholarship" player?

[Ivytalk]

Let's say you want to endow a need based grant for a student at an Ivy - can't you write your deed of gift to restrict the recipient to a certain program, characteristic or field of study?

If I had $10 million, and called Yale and said "here's $10 million for academic assistance, only caveat is that you give it to a Jewish football player - if you can't do this, Southern Connecticut gets the money" - are they going to say no? I'm 99.99% sure that a large component of my aid from one Ivy (and yes, my folks didn't make a lot, so one could argue it was 'need' based) was from a donor who had his money earmarked for a "Jewish football player". Heck, I met the guy who funded the gift.

Meet Harvard's new wideout and return man, Antwan Goldberg!:D