Saw a Presbyterian Practice. Was a little shocked

[WOCO]

I was in Clinton today to drop off some equipment and I caught the end of a PC practice. I was a little shocked. I guess the db coach was a little pissed about practice. They were doing up downs after practice. That wasnt the shocking part. He started getting getting personal with the players. He litteraly said, "don't think I wont call you out because I will". Then he started calling out specific names and telling them that they are basically garbage. Now I know there are different coaching styles but there is a difference between being demanding as hell and tearing people down. I could tell the players weren't responding to it as motivation. They were looking at him like he better not walk on campus at night alone. It's like the boss that treats People like (insert expletive). He will get the bare minimum from them all the time.

[JayJ79]

Isn't that how drill sergeants often act in the military?
perhaps some coaches try to establish a boot-camp type mentality in their pre-season camps.

(I don't know, I didn't play collegiate football)

[Go...gate]

I was in Clinton today to drop off some equipment and I caught the end of a PC practice. I was a little shocked. I guess the db coach was a little pissed about practice. They were doing up downs after practice. That wasnt the shocking part. He started getting getting personal with the players. He litteraly said, "don't think I wont call you out because I will". Then he started calling out specific names and telling them that they are basically garbage. Now I know there are different coaching styles but there is a difference between being demanding as hell and tearing people down. I could tell the players weren't responding to it as motivation. They were looking at him like he better not walk on campus at night alone. It's like the boss that treats People like (insert expletive). He will get the bare minimum from them all the time.

I wondered what happened to Tony Bernazard after the Mets fired him! :D

Seriously, doesn't sound like a productive way to coach youngsters. Colgate's former Defensive Coordinator was like that. He lasted one year and the defense really suffered under his "leadership".

[Uncle Buck]

If you're a returning player and you come back in out of shape or you obviously didn't follow your off season work-out, yeah, that'll piss off a lot of coaches.

[PhoenixMan]

I was in Clinton today to drop off some equipment and I caught the end of a PC practice. I was a little shocked. I guess the db coach was a little pissed about practice. They were doing up downs after practice. That wasnt the shocking part. He started getting getting personal with the players. He litteraly said, "don't think I wont call you out because I will". Then he started calling out specific names and telling them that they are basically garbage. Now I know there are different coaching styles but there is a difference between being demanding as hell and tearing people down. I could tell the players weren't responding to it as motivation. They were looking at him like he better not walk on campus at night alone. It's like the boss that treats People like (insert expletive). He will get the bare minimum from them all the time.

As a former HS coach, and a former Marine (who tried the Marine stuff at practice from time to time) I can tell you.....players today will not respond to that. The ones that will are few and far between. That's why PC is going to get their butts handed to them by Elon in a few weeksxnodx

[Uncle Buck]

I think it depends on the kind of kids you bring into the program. PC at this point is probably going to try and weed out the lower echelon kids from the upper as they go through their growing pains. I saw it when i played at Hofstra and we were transitioning from DIII to 1AA in the early 90's. By '94, we had a group of non-scholarship kids who going into every game you knew they were going to give you 100%. PC is probably trying to get there.

And if that doesn't work, just have them call the WHAAAAAAAmbulance!

[KiddBrewer]

dont be a scrub.

[appfan2008]

as a 23 year old i sure would never have responded to anything like that...

[GATA]

What's up with all the softies on this board? Nobody on here has any military experience? This is why kids are so screwed up...they have no mental toughness. They think every ridiculous thing that a drill instructor/coach/parent yells at them is meant to be some kind of personal attack...it's just a motivational tactic. If you actually listen to some of the crazy stuff these coaches yell at kids, it's actually hilarious. half of the time the **** makes no sense...its just a coach stringing together as many curse words as possible with a few verbs and nouns thrown in.

[gobluehose1]

what, did you think we sat in a circle around a campfire and sang feel good songs for practice......the problem with PC for the last couple of years is that practice has been soft....this is why we lost games 66-12.....this is why players took themselves out of games......this is why we gave up almost 500 yrds./game the last two years on defense.........no mental or physical toughness....in spite of this we still had enough talent to win a few big games....

Now with Byrnes Bentley gone it's time to get tough again...we have coach that is disciplined, loves PC and loves the players.....when I played (less than 5 yrs. ago) a good dog cussing every now and again was a wake-up call....you're right, it shouldn't be all the time....but if it is for emphasis...it's the same as a good kick in the rear

Go to any serious football program, I'm not saying that the coaches have to be like the Drill Sargeant from Full Metal Jacket, but if someone habitually messes up, they hear about it......if someone's slacking, they hear about....missed assignments? They hear about it.....and a little four letter word might be part of that "encouragement."

[Monarch Nation]

I didn't play collegiate sports, but I've spent my entire adult life in professional theatre - mostly as an actor. I've had directors take the Drill Instructor tactic and it can be effective. I've used it when I needed to as a director. I don't use it with my own children or with the Boy Scouts I lead, but I have no problem with that tactic for a collegiate football team or a group of adults if they need it. If it'll work on a bunch of actors and they won't get their panties in a bunch, then it sure as hell should work on football players.

The key here is the phrase if they need it. Use only when needed, and keep control. Use it too often or go out of control and it loses it's effectiveness.

[SuperJon]

The key to this is to know your players. Different players respond to different things. One player may completely shut down if they hear something like that while another might switch into gear. Every player is different. You can't do the same thing and expect every player to respond to it.

[Tribe4SF]

It's a coach's job to challenge players to become better, and harsh language and assessment are sometimes part of that. As with any leadership position, the central focus is on establishing clear expectations for performance. If that hasn't been done, then all the screaming is nothing more than noise. Football is a violent game, and it should be no surprise that the training and preparation to play it are sometimes rough.

[catamount man]

what, did you think we sat in a circle around a campfire and sang feel good songs for practice......the problem with PC for the last couple of years is that practice has been soft....this is why we lost games 66-12.....this is why players took themselves out of games......this is why we gave up almost 500 yrds./game the last two years on defense.........no mental or physical toughness....in spite of this we still had enough talent to win a few big games....

Now with Byrnes Bentley gone it's time to get tough again...we have coach that is disciplined, loves PC and loves the players.....when I played (less than 5 yrs. ago) a good dog cussing every now and again was a wake-up call....you're right, it shouldn't be all the time....but if it is for emphasis...it's the same as a good kick in the rear

Go to any serious football program, I'm not saying that the coaches have to be like the Drill Sargeant from Full Metal Jacket, but if someone habitually messes up, they hear about it......if someone's slacking, they hear about....missed assignments? They hear about it.....and a little four letter word might be part of that "encouragement."

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Amen. PC has needed somebody to jack them up ever since Bentley got there. Harold Nichols and his staff are not to be messed with and I hope they have a great year in the Big South. Kids today are a bunch of panzies. We need more coaches like this.

[ngineer]

That was an 'old school' ploy used for many decades, but in this day and age, I think it is counterproductive with today's students. The are better ways to motivate people than by tearing them down. Furthermore, in the coaching business, just as in other jobs where one is given 'authority' over another, there are always going to be some sadistic types who know no other way, and actually get their 'jollies' doing it. For a school named "Presbyterian", I am suprised there might not be some recoil.

[PaladinFan]

what, did you think we sat in a circle around a campfire and sang feel good songs for practice......the problem with PC for the last couple of years is that practice has been soft....this is why we lost games 66-12.....this is why players took themselves out of games......this is why we gave up almost 500 yrds./game the last two years on defense.........no mental or physical toughness....in spite of this we still had enough talent to win a few big games....

Now with Byrnes Bentley gone it's time to get tough again...we have coach that is disciplined, loves PC and loves the players.....when I played (less than 5 yrs. ago) a good dog cussing every now and again was a wake-up call....you're right, it shouldn't be all the time....but if it is for emphasis...it's the same as a good kick in the rear

Go to any serious football program, I'm not saying that the coaches have to be like the Drill Sargeant from Full Metal Jacket, but if someone habitually messes up, they hear about it......if someone's slacking, they hear about....missed assignments? They hear about it.....and a little four letter word might be part of that "encouragement."

I agree there is a line. Anything is better than Bentley and his "blog."

[Aho_Old_Guy]

That was an 'old school' ploy used for many decades, but in this day and age, I think it is counterproductive with today's students. The are better ways to motivate people than by tearing them down. Furthermore, in the coaching business, just as in other jobs where one is given 'authority' over another, there are always going to be some sadistic types who know no other way, and actually get their 'jollies' doing it. For a school named "Presbyterian", I am suprised there might not be some recoil.

Pretty much this.

Successful coaches can work the snot out of players and get them in great game shape (mentally and physically) without dawgin' them.

[Bull Fan]

If you can't handle this type of coaching, you shouldn't be playing the sport. I'm a little old-school, where we were belted full force in the facemask with a clipboard in middle school. I'm fine with it. Hell, I'd been called out by coaches twice my size with hands the size of a catcher's mitt.

Like I said, if you can't handle this, you belong in the stands ;)

[yosef1969]

As others have said coaches, have to know their players. Personally someone calling me out would piss me off and I would likely work harder. When some of you are saying today's players wouldn't respond to it what do you mean? They would sulk? Rebel? Just curious. I think a pissed off player in camp is a good thing. Besides it's a bit unfair to take observations of one practice and pass judgements on the coaching methods. I guarantee these tactics were followed up with positive reinforcement at some point. I believe it's a good thing as a coach to make it clear when players aren't meeting expectations. Good for the player, the coach, and the team and if that requires a little tough love so be it. As I get older I grow to dislike the touchy feely society we have become more and more. C'mon people grow a pair.

[PhoenixMan]

As others have said coaches, have to know their players. Personally someone calling me out would piss me off and I would likely work harder. When some of you are saying today's players wouldn't respond to it what do you mean? They would sulk? Rebel? Just curious. I think a pissed off player in camp is a good thing. Besides it's a bit unfair to take observations of one practice and pass judgements on the coaching methods. I guarantee these tactics were followed up with positive reinforcement at some point. I believe it's a good thing as a coach to make it clear when players aren't meeting expectations. Good for the player, the coach, and the team and if that requires a little tough love so be it. As I get older I grow to dislike the touchy feely society we have become more and more. C'mon people grow a pair.

What I meant about not responding is the position coach wouldn't have the true loyalty of that player when it counts in the fourth quarter....unless he is just as quick to praise as rip a kid a new a$%. I remember as HS player that it meant so much more when you did get praise for a good play when it came from the coach that was the harshest on poor performance. You can be harsh, but you have to be just as quick to high five and point out the good things in a player.

[PapaBear]

I coach high school kids and I do my fair share of screaming and yelling. (Well, sometimes a little more than my fair share xcoffeex) No namecalling, but lots of everything else.

The problem, I think, is with coaches who don't realize that you have to build a kid back up after you tear him down. "Catch 'em doin' stuff right," a former head coach I worked for once said.

True, the game is all about mental and physical toughness. But no kid is mentally tough enough to go into a game or a season thinking his coaches lack confidence in, and respect for, him. Come crunch time, players need to feel that their coach has their back.

One of my favorite coaching sayings came from Dick Vermeil: "They don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I agree with Papa bear. Nothing wrong with raising your voice and getting in players faces when they aren't doing something right. It's another thing entirely to tell them they're garbage, to not encourage them when they do something well, and to show no interest in them and mentor them off the practice and game fields. If your players don't respect you all the yelling and screaming and temper tantrums won't do anything. A good example of how to be a mean SOB without losing respect is in the "Remember the Titans" movie where Coach Boone kicks their a**es in camp but also does things like encouraging the big white kid to do better in school so he can get into college.

Brian VanGorder (VanGoober) is an example of a coach that gave tough love without the love. That offense made more mental mistakes than our freshman-laden team from last year. Also, he managed to turn a pretty good kicker into a guy that couldn't even nail extra points.

[yosef1969]

What I meant about not responding is the position coach wouldn't have the true loyalty of that player when it counts in the fourth quarter....unless he is just as quick to praise as rip a kid a new a$%. I remember as HS player that it meant so much more when you did get praise for a good play when it came from the coach that was the harshest on poor performance. You can be harsh, but you have to be just as quick to high five and point out the good things in a player.

I agree and odds are the PC coaches do just that. Taking the events of one practice and making judgments is unfair. We don't know the history of the relationships, what takes place in the film room or off the field or in one on one conversations. If a coaching staff is dogging players without positive reinforcement they won't be coaching for long because they will inevitably be unsuccessful.

The coaches I had most respect for were the ones that were touch on you but also let you know when you did things right too.

[SuperJon]

I'll use myself as an example:

A coach yelling at me to do better, when done right and not all of the time, would motivate me.

If he did it all of the time, with no instruction and no positive feedback, I would tune him out.

Also, for me, if he just started spewing a line of cuss words, I'd tune him out. That would do absolutely nothing for me. I don't cuss and I personally don't see the use for the words.

If I screwed up, yeah, let me know about it. Jump onto me. That's fair game. At the same time, don't berate me or belittle me. Tell me what I messed up on. Tell me I need to fix something. If you start telling me I'm the scum of the earth, maybe I'll start believing it or start to think that nothing I do is right.

As with everything else in life, moderation is the key. If you tear down, you have to build back up.

Having worked at Liberty football for the past two and a half years, and seeing our coaches on a day-to-day basis, I have a huge respect for Coach Rocco in the way he does this. He may call a kid out in practice and jump all over him in front of the team. Then the next day, when that kid had corrected his mistakes, he'll go up to him and talk to him for a few minutes to tell him that he's getting better and he likes what he sees. The encouragement that those few minutes brings to those players is what makes them succeed much more than the calling out they received, but without the calling out, the encouragement wouldn't have meant nearly as much.

[WileECoyote06]

Hell, I coach quiz bowl, and will do what I have to do when a player is messing up. Bad practice = bad performance, and I will let them know when they are not giving 100%. Two national finals appearances justifies my position, and the players know that; but I agree that you also have to praise them when they do well.

When the player realizes that you want them to experience being a winner just as badly as you want to win; you have their support.

[ElSissy]

I think any coach who isn't using the most advanced self-esteem enhancing methods probably shouldn't be in coaching. Each player should get an "I participated" trophy at the end of each practice. It will make them feel like they've accomplished something even though they may suck and are unwilling to make an effort. A trophy will encourage them to suck and make no effort at the next day's practice.

[PaladinFan]

These are different days though.

I read an article on the spread offense not long ago that discussed how it was percieved as a way for guys who found the three yards and a cloud of dust way of playing the game to be unappealing. Such was born "basketball on grass."

Every team these days seems to be running the spread. For many of us, the game we grew up playing where you line your 11 toughest SOBs against our toughest 11 is a thing of the past. I think, these days, where college recruiting is a science, coaches are a little less apt to do something that might make a guy want to take his toys and go home.

for my part, I have no problem with it. I think often the best coaching staffs are those with a cool head coach, a couple jerks, a couple nice guys. Kids respond differently to different approaches. A good mixture of everything is important.

[Ivytalk]

Go to any serious football program, I'm not saying that the coaches have to be like the Drill Sargeant from Full Metal Jacket, but if someone habitually messes up, they hear about it......if someone's slacking, they hear about....missed assignments? They hear about it.....and a little four letter word might be part of that "encouragement."


Is F. Lee Ermey looking for a coaching job? That would be great!xcoachxxshakingmadx

[aust42]

I played for Tubby Raymond at Delaware who was a strict disciplinarian. He would belittle players at times in practice, kick them off the practice field, completely embarrass players in team meetings, call you out. Called me an A-hole a couple times. But when he did those things it was for good reason and it kept people on their toes at all times. You were not late for practice, meetings, and you paid attention to every detail in practice, films etc. for fear of Tubby's wrath. He was little guy, 5' 6", 165llbs and when he walked down the hallway people stood at attention. Kind of like a father figure in a way, you feared him but respected him very much. Immature 18-22 year old kids need their butts kicked around every now and then and his methods molded kids into hard working, disciplined young men. And for me the work ethic I developed on the football field carried over in life.

In contrast my high school coach was totally laid back, joked around with players, let players fool around without any repercussions and that carried over in how our team performed. We were very talented but were a .500 football team. If Tubby coached that same team we would have been undefeated. For real.

Funny thing about Tubby was on game day, when a player screwed up he would yell and scream at the position coach and not the player. If the middle linebacker was out of position and a RB gained 10 yards up the middle on a crucial play, Tubby would come running down the sideline, get up in in the LB coaches face and just rip him a new a-hole. Then of course it trickled down and your position coach yelled at you.

So, after my reminiscing post, my point is that I agree with the disciplinarian style and approach in coaching.

[gobluehose1]

PC has had an absolute lack of discipline the last two years.......and for a program that was built on discipline and playing tough previous to the 2 Bentley years, it was terrible to watch...

so coaches are re-instilling that discipline......I went to a scrimmage today and this showed.....very few if any missed tackles....running off and on the field....no one missing from special teams....playing hard to the whistle

When someone missed an assignment, the coach "informed them" of their mishap....but when they got it right the next play the coach was their biggest fan (except for Momma)

[proasu89]

I think any coach who isn't using the most advanced self-esteem enhancing methods probably shouldn't be in coaching. Each player should get an "I participated" trophy at the end of each practice. It will make them feel like they've accomplished something even though they may suck and are unwilling to make an effort. A trophy will encourage them to suck and make no effort at the next day's practice.



xoutofrepx

[ngineer]

If you can't handle this type of coaching, you shouldn't be playing the sport. I'm a little old-school, where we were belted full force in the facemask with a clipboard in middle school. I'm fine with it. Hell, I'd been called out by coaches twice my size with hands the size of a catcher's mitt.

Like I said, if you can't handle this, you belong in the stands ;)

There's a difference between yelling and giving some honest, harsh criticism versus personally calling someone degrading names. To result to such tactics tells me the limits of the coach's ability.

[Bull Fan]

Ngineer, it all depends on your mental toughness. In my case, the browbeatings took place after a few mental errors. I fully understood the situation where the yelling wasn't personal, it was out of frustration and it was a classical case of a coach's expectations of a player not being met.

Fwiw, these were coaches who led us to a county championship the season before, we all loved and respected them collectively. The head coach was a Maxwell award winner at Navy and an AFL veteran. The assistants were deeply experienced and we all respected them. Their heat was justified and not just smoke-blowing.

You have to want to be coached and not be a prima donna. Football players need to be mentally tough, no doubt. Especially scholarship kids.

[Monarch History]

The problem, I think, is with coaches who don't realize that you have to build a kid back up after you tear him down. "Catch 'em doin' stuff right," a former head coach I worked for once said. True, the game is all about mental and physical toughness. But no kid is mentally tough enough to go into a game or a season thinking his coaches lack confidence in, and respect for, him. Come crunch time, players need to feel that their coach has their back.

Well said PapaBear!xthumbsupx

[ngineer]

Ngineer, it all depends on your mental toughness. In my case, the browbeatings took place after a few mental errors. I fully understood the situation where the yelling wasn't personal, it was out of frustration and it was a classical case of a coach's expectations of a player not being met.

Fwiw, these were coaches who led us to a county championship the season before, we all loved and respected them collectively. The head coach was a Maxwell award winner at Navy and an AFL veteran. The assistants were deeply experienced and we all respected them. Their heat was justified and not just smoke-blowing.

You have to want to be coached and not be a prima donna. Football players need to be mentally tough, no doubt. Especially scholarship kids.

Don't disagree with a thing you said above. My only objection is actually calling someone degrading names like " piece of garbage" or 'being a dumb *****', etc. Getting in someone's face and challenging them is part of the game. I don't mind grabbing someone's facemask to get their attention or a slap against the helmet. But, to me, having to engage in personal insults is like what we see in our social and political discourse today. When it drops to that level, it shows that the speaker has nothing of worth to say and can only fall back on name calling.

[paward]

You can not coach or teach young minds as you did 20, 30 years ago. You have to adapt to the mindset and environment. I recall coaches giving players salt tablet and defied them to drink water in my day. You can not do that now. Times have changed, people have changed. Productivity comes from positive tactics not negative.

[PapaBear]

Don't disagree with a thing you said above. My only objection is actually calling someone degrading names like " piece of garbage" or 'being a dumb *****', etc. Getting in someone's face and challenging them is part of the game. I don't mind grabbing someone's facemask to get their attention or a slap against the helmet. But, to me, having to engage in personal insults is like what we see in our social and political discourse today. When it drops to that level, it shows that the speaker has nothing of worth to say and can only fall back on name calling.

Exactly right. There's no quicker way to erode your credibility than to call people names. It has no place in social and political discourse, and it has no place in coaching.

Learn to criticize the action, not the player.

[Uncle Buck]

Having played the game and being a part of the good and the bad, I will say it again, there is nothing wrong with coaches cracking down on kids. You come to camp unprepared, you're going to hear it. You make dumb mistakes, you're going to hear it. Yes I agree it must be used when called for and not just constant noise. Yes I agree that it must also be followed at times with some positives. But i'd be a liar if i said that the times i got my a$$ chewed on the field and didn't get an atta boy at the end of practice, i didn't go home thinking damn, i better get my but in gear. It makes you question yourself and if you're giving all that you could. You come back, you work hard, you EARN the pat on the a$$.

Working in public education i see it too often, trophies for everyone and every damn parent is a friggin' world class coach in their own mind. I have seniors in my building who lack the self confidence to come to see me when they have a complaint. Instead, i have to get the filtered garbage from the parents who expect to send this kid across the country to college on their own!!! Trophies for everyone raises a society of soft young adults who lack the ability, courage and know how to get anything done on their own. They'll never know what it means to truly challenge their own mettle and prove their worth to others.

[Bull Fan]

Amen, Uncle Buck. I'm not for the need of constant positive reinforcement, whether if it's after you've redeemed yourself or not. It's a tough world out there, I'm living proof of it right now. It's not always the case of getting your ass chewed out and then having them come back to you with kind words. Would be nice, but it's not always like that. There's nothing wrong with learning how to overcome failure and adversity.

Learning that early would be a greater service to kids than the feel-good crap that's pushed down our throats nowadays. Seems they're always looking for the recognition, and feel 'disrespected' if they don't get it. I'm not out to mistreat anyone, but kids could use a little dose of reality early on. I had it early in life between parents and coaches, and I turned out to be confident and able to take the occasional abuse that's dished out by people and situations.

I'm going to try to instill this in my children to a degree. If the PC police come knocking, I'm going to tell them to go f_ck off and hand out their 9th place trophy somewhere else.

[Seawolf97]

Good post from both of you!

[Husky Alum]

I'm with UB here, in today's world, you need to be straight forward and call people out, if they don't respond - they're gone.

It happens in my company every day - the perform or perish days are back, whether we like it or not.

I have two little girls, and I'm trying to teach them that everything isn't always fair, and that the way they deal with adversity says more about how they act when they win.

Jim Calhoun is a yeller and a screamer and he calls his kids out ALL the time, and he does it in public, and he'll do it in the media. Ask any of his players at NU or UConn, and they vast majority of them would take a bullet for the man because he's loyal to them and they're loyal to him.

I had the opportunity to watch Don Brown and his staff coach live for his tenure at NU, and the fans are so close to the field at Parsons (and the crows were typically small) and you'd hear Don and his staff go nuts on kids.

They both win.

I played FB in HS for a screamer, we didn't win, but we responded to the guy.

It's all how you handle the post-dress down period. As many noted, if you handle the dressing down and the post dress down appropriately, it will work.

Many folks at NU criticize Rocky Hager and his staff for being too nice to the kids and not a tough enough disciplinarian. Rock has enough hardware from NDSU to prove to me that his methods work - now they're 180 from Don Brown or the Presby coach, but he won.

[Native]

My Marine drill instructor knew us well as a group and as individuals. He never asked us to do anything that was beyond our capability. :)

What he took away with his left hand in terms of screaming, hazing and pushing us to the limit was rewarded with the right hand in terms of praise, rewards and genuine accomplishment. xthumbsupx

True, it was sometimes the DI's job to try to weed out the weaklings, but most of us wanted them weeded out just as badly as he did. xnodx

...Kind of like my football coach. xnodx

[SuperJon]

Maybe it's different for me because of a coach I had in middle school. The man ruined playing football for me. He yelled and cussed at the players and blamed us for everything when in reality, he couldn't coach. We won two games in two years. The year after he left (and I was in high school) the assistant took over and only lost one games.

What he lacked in coaching, he made up for in yelling and cussing at the players.

Then in high school, I had a baseball coach that rarely ever yelled. He taught the game and took it seriously but still let us have fun with it. When he did yell, it made an impact but it was only a couple of times a year.

We were very, very successful (ask KiddBrewer).

I saw one work great, and one work terribly.

[PapaBear]

There are both redundancies and misunderstandings in this string.

The redundancies are easy to identify. Pretty much everyone has said, in one form or another, that football lends itself to ... no, make that REQUIRES ... both tough-minded players and tough-minded coaches.

The misunderstandings come from a few posters who seem to think that a coach who works hard at the "build 'em up" side of the equation is somehow a politically correct, tree-hugging, Rosie O'Donnell loving, wimp.

Those guys exist, but they're rare and they generally don't last. Nor do their counterparts who'd rather dunk their balls in a can of icy hot than compliment a player.

No matter how tough a coach is, if his only message to his players is, "You guys stink. You're pussies. You're going to get your asses kicked," then I assure you, they will go onto the field thinking they stink, and they will indeed get their asses kicked.

Now, I know that, on a roster of 80 or 90 players, you might have a few masochists who respond only to ridicule and embarrassment. But most of us -- and I include some pretty tough guys that I've coached and played with -- eventually need an encouraging word from their coach.

That doesn't make them pussies and it doesn't make their coach a pussy for meeting that need.

[Native]

There are both redundancies and misunderstandings in this string.

The redundancies are easy to identify. Pretty much everyone has said, in one form or another, that football lends itself to ... no, make that REQUIRES ... both tough-minded players and tough-minded coaches.

The misunderstandings come from a few posters who seem to think that a coach who works hard at the "build 'em up" side of the equation is somehow a politically correct, tree-hugging, Rosie O'Donnell loving, wimp.

Those guys exist, but they're rare and they generally don't last. Nor do their counterparts who'd rather dunk their balls in a can of icy hot than compliment a player.

No matter how tough a coach is, if his only message to his players is, "You guys stink. You're pussies. You're going to get your asses kicked," then I assure you, they will go onto the field thinking they stink, and they will indeed get their asses kicked.

Now, I know that, on a roster of 80 or 90 players, you might have a few masochists who respond only to ridicule and embarrassment. But most of us -- and I include some pretty tough guys that I've coached and played with -- eventually need an encouraging word from their coach.

That doesn't make them pussies and it doesn't make their coach a pussy for meeting that need.

Well said, PB!

[Uncle Buck]

PB, you're right, getting that encouraging word is needed. I just happen to think that kudos and atta boys are so arbitrarily given out that kids don't know what it means to be accountable for their actions or lack of. I think the real disconnect people are having here, a coach dressing down a player based on performance or lack of effort, is a lot different than personally attacking a kid by calling him a pussy. Now, i came in one spring over my playing weight, and yeah, i endured the fat a$$ remarks, but in the end, i needed to be more accountable for what i did in the offseason. When i came back in for summer camp about 40lbs. lighter, there was my position coach recognizing the effort and there was my atta boy. It felt good not so much because i needed it from him, but it helped me realize that when push came to shove, i could do what it would take to contribute to the program and make myself better at the same time.

I played through high school and college, but also coached at the high school and middle school level as well. SuperJon's situation is unfortunate, but while I never cursed at the the kids, you can bet that I would yell a bit to get the attention of one, two or all of my players. But, as we all agree, you also have to be able to call them on the good things.

[KAUMASS]

That's all, just some up downs and some personal name calling? The coach is breaking them all down as a group. He was probably calling guys out just to piss them off, wether they deserved it or not. Nothing new, as most coaches have a hair across their ass most of the day.......Day at the beach compared to what I went through at training camp at UMass.

[Hoseinexile07]

WOCO, what you saw was a particular snapshot of the entire experience. When I was in Clinton on Thursday, for example, I saw nothing but positive encouragement from Coach Nichols and the staff during the practice. The players responded well. And gobluehose is right. Tommy Spangler ran a tight ship before Bentley got there, and over the last two seasons our program lost a lot of physical and mental toughness. I'm not saying that coaches should treat their players like serfs, but rather that for all you know, after practice that same coach could have taken the players aside and built them up. You don't reestablish toughness by taking players to candlelight dinners and serenading them. Football at PC is serious business and we're doing what we can to get our squad competitive again. So a coach threatens to call players out individually for mistakes? So what? When I played club and varsity soccer in high school, my goalkeeping coach called me out by name if I screwed up. So I fixed the problem and started blocking more shots. It was nothing personal and it sure motivated me to perform better.

I know Coach Nichols' character and have talked with him before; he's a good man and a fine football coach who loves the game, his alma mater, and our players. He won't tolerate actions that break players' spirits. There's a difference between chastisement and tearing down.

[UNHFan99]

I think it depends on if the players in fact do stink. If he is right then there is nothing wrong with it. I dont know the players in question though and if they in fact are good or bad.

[gobluehose1]

I think it depends on if the players in fact do stink. If he is right then there is nothing wrong with it. I dont know the players in question though and if they in fact are good or bad.

the DBs played well in the scrimmage, so they must have responded

[drpnut]

Hey... I want to add that "style" does not make one a disciplinarian coach or not... Just to assume that every coach that yells and cusses is "Disciplinarian" would be a farce, just as it would be to assume every coach that was "mild" was a pushover...

The example I give is Coach Tony Dungy. I heard Warren Sapp say on a number of ocassions that his stare could "almost make me cry." Sapp also went on to say that Coach Dungy was so disciplined in his life and approach to game plans, personnel, etc. that when "you messed up, you knew it and you felt so bad for letting Coach and the team down."

Holla

[Franks Tanks]

I was in Clinton today to drop off some equipment and I caught the end of a PC practice. I was a little shocked. I guess the db coach was a little pissed about practice. They were doing up downs after practice. That wasnt the shocking part. He started getting getting personal with the players. He litteraly said, "don't think I wont call you out because I will". Then he started calling out specific names and telling them that they are basically garbage. Now I know there are different coaching styles but there is a difference between being demanding as hell and tearing people down. I could tell the players weren't responding to it as motivation. They were looking at him like he better not walk on campus at night alone. It's like the boss that treats People like (insert expletive). He will get the bare minimum from them all the time.

Wow- was this the 1st ever FB practice you have watched. The merits of this approach can be debated at length, but it is a common approach and not extraordinary in any manner.

[g-webb1994]

Such behavior from Calvinists! Shocking!xlolx

[WOCO]

Wow- was this the 1st ever FB practice you have watched. The merits of this approach can be debated at length, but it is a common approach and not extraordinary in any manner.

Actually I played football in college so I have been to a practice or two and I played for a black belt named Mike Ayers. I don't know how many practices you have "watched" but all coaches don't do that and with todays players it can be counterproductive. I don't mean it in the way that these kids are weak minded or soft. It's just like when years ago people worked in plants for 12 hours a day 6 days a week and that was the norm. Now thats not an accepted practice and you know as an employee, you don't have to accept that (unless they pay you for it). Same applies for players. They feel that coaches the treat them like dirt are the norm and the loose respect for those coaches ( that may be a horrible analogy but it's all I can come up with for the moment). Look, I only caught the end of practice so this isn't an indictment on the the entire program, just on 10 minutes. It's really a question of coaching styles. I'm just saying that there is a difference between being incredibly demanding of a player and making players loose respect for you as a coach and a man. It's a very fine line. What boss have you gone out of your way for that you had not respect for. It's like the dungy story a few post ago. You will go a lot further for a someone that you respect than someone that you despise.

Now, for all of the people that will should take that and motivate yourself be real. If you had a boss that treated you that way and he needed a volunteer for a project that only affected him, how far out of you way would you go for him? And for the people that will say if you can't take the job or boss, you should just quit, be real. You have to buy groceries with that job even if you hate it and they have to pay for school even if they hate. The question is how much are you going to get out of those people that hate it.

[Franks Tanks]

Actually I played football in college so I have been to a practice or two and I played for a black belt named Mike Ayers. I don't know how many practices you have "watched" but all coaches don't do that and with todays players it can be counterproductive. I don't mean it in the way that these kids are weak minded or soft. It's just like when years ago people worked in plants for 12 hours a day 6 days a week and that was the norm. Now thats not an accepted practice and you know as an employee, you don't have to accept that (unless they pay you for it). Same applies for players. They feel that coaches the treat them like dirt are the norm and the loose respect for those coaches ( that may be a horrible analogy but it's all I can come up with for the moment). Look, I only caught the end of practice so this isn't an indictment on the the entire program, just on 10 minutes. It's really a question of coaching styles. I'm just saying that there is a difference between being incredibly demanding of a player and making players loose respect for you as a coach and a man. It's a very fine line. What boss have you gone out of your way for that you had not respect for. It's like the dungy story a few post ago. You will go a lot further for a someone that you respect than someone that you despise.

Now, for all of the people that will should take that and motivate yourself be real. If you had a boss that treated you that way and he needed a volunteer for a project that only affected him, how far out of you way would you go for him? And for the people that will say if you can't take the job or boss, you should just quit, be real. You have to buy groceries with that job even if you hate it and they have to pay for school even if they hate. The question is how much are you going to get out of those people that hate it.


I also played FB in college -- I have been yelled at during every level of football. As you know coaches can be huge dicks on many ocassions or at practice and then be your best friend off the field. Perhaps this is the case here?

[WOCO]

[QUOTE=Franks Tanks;1385100]I also played FB in college -- I have been yelled at during every level of football. As you know coaches can be huge dicks on many ocassions or at practice and then be your best friend off the field. Perhaps this is the case here?[/QUOTE

You may be right. I've been yelled at plenty enough as well. I just don't respond to belittling. The point is that a coach has to make sure that he motivates without building resentment. It's not easy but that is what separates an x&o coach from a great coach.

[Go...gate]

PB, you're right, getting that encouraging word is needed. I just happen to think that kudos and atta boys are so arbitrarily given out that kids don't know what it means to be accountable for their actions or lack of. I think the real disconnect people are having here, a coach dressing down a player based on performance or lack of effort, is a lot different than personally attacking a kid by calling him a pussy. Now, i came in one spring over my playing weight, and yeah, i endured the fat a$$ remarks, but in the end, i needed to be more accountable for what i did in the offseason. When i came back in for summer camp about 40lbs. lighter, there was my position coach recognizing the effort and there was my atta boy. It felt good not so much because i needed it from him, but it helped me realize that when push came to shove, i could do what it would take to contribute to the program and make myself better at the same time.

I played through high school and college, but also coached at the high school and middle school level as well. SuperJon's situation is unfortunate, but while I never cursed at the the kids, you can bet that I would yell a bit to get the attention of one, two or all of my players. But, as we all agree, you also have to be able to call them on the good things.

Right on.

[jimbo65]

A number of years ago, Columbia was actually making progress. The HC was named Garrett as in the present QB coach of the Cowboys who was the head coach's son. His other son was also on the team. One Saturday Columbia lost an Ivy game they were winning. After the game the HC went into a tirade about the players having a defetist attitude, particularly the kicker, and referred to them as similar to "drug addicted losers". This was picked up in the papers and, as I recall, the coach was told to exit. He did along with the sons who transferred to Princeton and had good careers. Just because it is football does not give someone the right to denigrate people. Assuming PC has a religious affiliation, that is another reason to chastise/jettison the coach in question.

[Go...gate]

A number of years ago, Columbia was actually making progress. The HC was named Garrett as in the present QB coach of the Cowboys who was the head coach's son. His other son was also on the team. One Saturday Columbia lost an Ivy game they were winning. After the game the HC went into a tirade about the players having a defetist attitude, particularly the kicker, and referred to them as similar to "drug addicted losers". This was picked up in the papers and, as I recall, the coach was told to exit. He did along with the sons who transferred to Princeton and had good careers. Just because it is football does not give someone the right to denigrate people. Assuming PC has a religious affiliation, that is another reason to chastise/jettison the coach in question.

You are referring to Jimmy Garrett, a former NFL player and coach and he, indeed, berated his punter and his whole Columbia team after losing his first game to Harvard in the 1985 season.

[Franks Tanks]

A number of years ago, Columbia was actually making progress. The HC was named Garrett as in the present QB coach of the Cowboys who was the head coach's son. His other son was also on the team. One Saturday Columbia lost an Ivy game they were winning. After the game the HC went into a tirade about the players having a defetist attitude, particularly the kicker, and referred to them as similar to "drug addicted losers". This was picked up in the papers and, as I recall, the coach was told to exit. He did along with the sons who transferred to Princeton and had good careers. Just because it is football does not give someone the right to denigrate people. Assuming PC has a religious affiliation, that is another reason to chastise/jettison the coach in question.


Good thing reporters never listened to coach Russo or Tavani at Lafayette -- both mean little Italian guys

[hoseman]

WOCO - you must have a son on the PC football team?

[Hoseinexile07]

Just because it is football does not give someone the right to denigrate people. Assuming PC has a religious affiliation, that is another reason to chastise/jettison the coach in question.

Chastise or jettison? We don't even know what was said specifically. All we know from WOCO's post was that an assistant coach threatened to call players out individually for mistakes. That is not grounds for chastisement or jettisoning.

[Uncle Buck]

Chastise or jettison? We don't even know what was said specifically. All we know from WOCO's post was that an assistant coach threatened to call players out individually for mistakes. That is not grounds for chastisement or jettisoning.

xthumbsupx

There is nothing wrong with a little tough love. 2 slaps and a hug.

For anyone to say that these methods are outdated for today's player, it's only because we have let kids become complacent and spoiled. They expect everything to be handed to them, the sense of entitlement i see on a daily basis is scary. The kids who can't handle harsh criticism, they're the ones that you don't want lined up next to you 4th and short with the game on the line. Whether it's a foxhole, on the line of scrimmage or fighting for more cubicle space, this type of person doesn't have the mettle or "intestinal fortituded" to persevere through the valleys to rise up to the summit when faced with adversity.

[Franks Tanks]

xthumbsupx

There is nothing wrong with a little tough love. 2 slaps and a hug.

For anyone to say that these methods are outdated for today's player, it's only because we have let kids become complacent and spoiled. They expect everything to be handed to them, the sense of entitlement i see on a daily basis is scary. The kids who can't handle harsh criticism, they're the ones that you don't want lined up next to you 4th and short with the game on the line. Whether it's a foxhole, on the line of scrimmage or fighting for more cubicle space, this type of person doesn't have the mettle or "intestinal fortituded" to persevere through the valleys to rise up to the summit when faced with adversity.

Kids these days are such pussies-- I wonder if we will even have kids to play FB in 20-30 years xlolx

[elon77]

Kids these days are such pussies-- I wonder if we will even have kids to play FB in 20-30 years xlolx

Maybe if they make all football flag or two hand touch.

[hoseman]

xthumbsupx

There is nothing wrong with a little tough love. 2 slaps and a hug.

For anyone to say that these methods are outdated for today's player, it's only because we have let kids become complacent and spoiled. They expect everything to be handed to them, the sense of entitlement i see on a daily basis is scary. The kids who can't handle harsh criticism, they're the ones that you don't want lined up next to you 4th and short with the game on the line. Whether it's a foxhole, on the line of scrimmage or fighting for more cubicle space, this type of person doesn't have the mettle or "intestinal fortituded" to persevere through the valleys to rise up to the summit when faced with adversity.

Best post on this trail.

Why even talk about this - this is football - PC has had two horrible coaching years and need toughness. The starters love this style of coaching.

[Bull Fan]

Maybe if they make all football flag or two hand touch.

That, and all dolled-up like they're starting to do today. You know, 12 different Under Armor sweat bands, the stick-on eye black, the uniform perfectly in place.... but DARE you touch them and make them get 'dirty'..... it's bad for their image. Pussies, yes.

Clearly I'm one of those who believes in tough love. Getting cracked across my grill (ok, the facemask...) with a clipboard never did me any wrong. You try that today, you'll find yourself on the cover of Newsday. And god help it if the kid was black, Jesse Jackass Jackson and Reverend Sharpie would be on you like stink on ****. It would be a civil rights case of the highest order.

In my field, I come across the biggest pricks who'd think nothing of cutting you down. Ruthless individuals. I see nothing in the way kids are being raised today that would help them in that environment.

[Hoseinexile07]

John Calvin was a bit of an a*shole. If we're truly a school steeped in the Reformed tradition, we'd do well to emulate him. xlolx

On a serious note, I don't agree with the whole "Well, I had to do it 30 years ago, so they should too" idea. I think players should get as called out and dressed down to the same intensity as they are praised and built up. Positive reinforcement is a good thing and coaches shouldn't break players' spirits; if they do that then the players won't care and that's bad for business, as well as just being toolish.

[Bull Fan]

John Calvin was a bit of an a*shole. If we're truly a school steeped in the Reformed tradition, we'd do well to emulate him. xlolx

On a serious note, I don't agree with the whole "Well, I had to do it 30 years ago, so they should too" idea. I think players should get as called out and dressed down to the same intensity as they are praised and built up. Positive reinforcement is a good thing and coaches shouldn't break players' spirits; if they do that then the players won't care and that's bad for business, as well as just being toolish.

Players not caring because they receive harsh treatment = further evidence of society going soft. I think when it all comes down to brass tacks, not everyone should / could be a football player.

This sounds preachy, but I'd be taking it as a gauntlet being thrown down.

[gobluehose1]

John Calvin was a bit of an a*shole. If we're truly a school steeped in the Reformed tradition, we'd do well to emulate him. xlolx


yea, ask Michael Servetus what he thought of ole John Calvin

[Hoseinexile07]

He'd say Calvin was rather...fiery. xlolx

[Cobblestone]

Isn't that how drill sergeants often act in the military?
perhaps some coaches try to establish a boot-camp type mentality in their pre-season camps.

(I don't know, I didn't play collegiate football)

I did AND I was in the military. If drill sergeants today took that approach they'd get a quick article 15 from their Company Commander.

Obviously I didn't attend this practice at Presbyterian so I can't comment directly on that. All I can say is that there have always been similarities between football training camps and military training. If you can't handle the heat then get out of the kitchen. Bottom line is that it's all a head game. If you can accept that then you'll do fine, if not then you'll be eaten alive.

Personally, I never used that style when I was training troops or coaching Pop Warner players. I always preferred to take a technological approach and focus more on the mission. Whether that mission was teaching young boys the basics of football or teaching NCOs troop leading procedures, I always stayed focused on the mission and used a mission oriented approach.