Moratorium News - $1M Application to Div I

[TexasTerror]

Thanks to Jafus via MEACFans...

Is this the first real news we have got on the moratorium? A $1M application to move up from Div II to Div I is going to be a very costly hurdle, in addition to the other hindrances already in place.


The NCAA is weighing a number of new conditions to join its richest, highest-profile division, including an application fee of as much as $1 million. Reclassifying schools now pay $15,000.

The guidelines are being hammered out by the Division I Leadership Council, which reports in October to the school presidents and chancellors on the D-I Board of Directors. The earliest any changes would kick in is April.

"Division I is a significant brand. There's a nice revenue-sharing pool," says Georgia athletics director Damon Evans, who heads the Leadership Council. "We've just got to make sure … that those in Division I are the right institutions and can meet the standards and qualifications."

The action comes as Division I has grown from 310 schools a decade ago to 335, with another 13 en route to full membership by the 2012-13 school year. Concerned about overgrowth — and an influx of schools lacking Division I-level funding and other resources — the NCAA cut off new applications until August 2011.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/other/2009-08-12-Notes_N.htm

[TonkaBison]

Thanks to Jafus via MEACFans...

Is this the first real news we have got on the moratorium? A $1M application to move up from Div II to Div I is going to be a very costly hurdle, in addition to the other hindrances already in place.



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/other/2009-08-12-Notes_N.htm

I'm glad to hear it. The NCAA has watered down D-II football so much with scholarship cuts I'm sure there are plenty of teams who would like to get out. We don't need D-I getting watered down the same way. This at least gauges how serious you are. I think NDSU would have come up with the money we were so sick of the D-II environment! I believe we paid $250,000 to join the Summit League.

[MSUBear42]

Are you freaking kidding me? As if they didn't make enough money already.


Does this involve FCS to FBS moves, too? Or is it just D2 to D1?

[dgreco]

i guess no new exploratory committees.

[TexasTerror]

Does this involve FCS to FBS moves, too? Or is it just D2 to D1?

Sounds like Div II to Div I. No mention of FBS moves here, which should, if this holds true - free up Jax St, Texas St-San Marcos, Georgia State for moves on up.

[McNeese75]

Sounds like Div II to Div I. No mention of FBS moves here, which should, if this holds true - free up Jax St, Texas St-San Marcos, Georgia State for moves on up.

xeekx It is absolutly insane to tag a school a million to move from II to I and not from FSC to FBS. Of course maybe that will be a couple million instead.

[JoshUCA]

I'm glad that we moved up when we did!

[GannonFan]

Apparently has no impact on FCS schools moving to FBS, so for most of us, not a concern.

But from a cynic side, who is the recipient of this $1M fee? The NCAA? Does it get split over every school already in DI? I'm not sure how this fee would hold up in court - paying for administrative fees certainly makes sense, but I don't see where anyone has the authority, legally, to charge that kind of money for a school to make an individual decision for thier own interests.

[TexasTerror]

Apparently has no impact on FCS schools moving to FBS, so for most of us, not a concern.

It is a concern for those FCS schools monitoring Div II schools that may become future members of their conference - particularly the Great West and maybe even the SLC (if TXST, UTSA, etc leave). xreadx

[gophoenix]

So here's the list of I-AA moveups ever of current teams in the division:

1984: Eastern Washington (D-II)
1986: Morgan St (D-II), Sam Houston St (D-II), Stephen F Austin (D-II), Towson (D-II)
1989: Liberty (D-II), Samford (D-III)
1991: SE Missouri St (D-II)
1992: Tn Martin (D-II)
1993: Butler (D-II), Sacramento St (D-II), CCSU (D-II), Charleston Southern (D-III), Davidson (D-III), Dayton (D-III), Drake (D-III), Duquense (D-III), Georgetown (D-III), Hofstra (D-III), Marist (D-III), St Francis (D-III), San Diego (D-III), Southern Utah (D-II), Valparaiso (D-II), Wagner (D-III)
1994: Cal Poly (D-II)
1995: Hampton (D-II), Jacksonville State (D-II), Wofford (D-II)
1997: Norfolk St (D-II)
1998: Arkansas Pine Bluff (NAIA), Portland State (D-II)
1999: Elon (D-II), Alabama A&M (D-II), Sacred Heart (D-II), Albany (D-II), Stony Brook (D-II)
2000: Garnder-Webb (D-II)
2002: Savannah St (D-II)
2007: UC-Davis (D-II), Northern Colorado (D-II)
2008: NC Central (D-II), North Dakota St (D-II), South Dakota St (D-II)

Soon: Presbyterian (D-II), NC Central (D-II), WSSU (D-II), North Dakota (D-II), South Dakota (D-II)

So, of this list, who doesn't belong? And how is D-II (or D-III for that matter) watered down?

I think that D-I is more watered down by the sheer number of non-football schools that've moved up in general....

[TexasTerror]

1987: Sam Houston St (D-II), Stephen F Austin (D-II), Towson (D-II)

Not correct. Sam Houston State played in the 1986 Division I playoffs!

SHSU, SFA moved up in 1986. Began the transition in 1984 when they formed the Gulf Star. Believe then-Southwest Texas was part of that move too.

[WileECoyote06]

Apparently has no impact on FCS schools moving to FBS, so for most of us, not a concern.

But from a cynic side, who is the recipient of this $1M fee? The NCAA? Does it get split over every school already in DI? I'm not sure how this fee would hold up in court - paying for administrative fees certainly makes sense, but I don't see where anyone has the authority, legally, to charge that kind of money for a school to make an individual decision for thier own interests.

I stated on Onnidan.com; I think a school will challenge the non-profit status of the NCAA if this comes to pass. A jump from $15,000 to $1,000,000 is beyond ridiculous. I could even fathom $50K or $100K; but $1M?

[gophoenix]

Not correct. Sam Houston State played in the 1986 Division I playoffs!

SHSU, SFA moved up in 1986. Began the transition in 1984 when they formed the Gulf Star. Believe then-Southwest Texas was part of that move too.

Ok, let me correct it, the point still stands.

[Saint3333]

GP many of these schools are watering down the FCS including:

Morgan St (D-II)
Butler (D-II), CCSU (D-II), Davidson (D-III), Dayton (D-III), Drake (D-III), Duquense (D-III), Georgetown (D-III), Marist (D-III), St Francis (D-III), Valparaiso (D-II), Wagner (D-III)
Arkansas Pine Bluff (NAIA)
Sacred Heart (D-II)
Savannah St (D-II)

1993 must have been when the Div. 1 bball rule must have been implemented because the majority of those schools can not compete at the FCS level. No team above has a chance to ever make the playoffs or break into the top 40 of the FCS. This is just my opinion, but there are ~20-25 teams at the FCS level that don't fund their programs in a manner to compete at this level.

[DFW HOYA]

No team above has a chance to ever make the playoffs or break into the top 40 of the FCS. This is just my opinion, but there are ~20-25 teams at the FCS level that don't fund their programs in a manner to compete at this level.

If Georgetown won the Patriot League they make the playoffs. Period.

(And, if you check the numbers, Georgetown's 2007 football budget was 22nd among 38 Eastern programs. If scholarships were $5,000 instead of $50,000, this wouldn't even be an issue.)

[gophoenix]

GP many of these schools are watering down the FCS including:

Morgan St (D-II)
Butler (D-II), CCSU (D-II), Davidson (D-III), Dayton (D-III), Drake (D-III), Duquense (D-III), Georgetown (D-III), Marist (D-III), St Francis (D-III), Valparaiso (D-II), Wagner (D-III)
Arkansas Pine Bluff (NAIA)
Sacred Heart (D-II)
Savannah St (D-II)

1993 must have been when the Div. 1 bball rule must have been implemented because the majority of those schools can not compete at the FCS level. No team above has a chance to ever make the playoffs or break into the top 40 of the FCS. This is just my opinion, but there are ~20-25 teams at the FCS level that don't fund their programs in a manner to compete at this level.

1993 was that rule. i wanted to note that not all of the schools moved up to D-I when their football. Lots were established D-I schools that had football in D-II.

This is where I come from. Tons of D-II schools moved up for basketball that have no business in D-I. And there are a handful of other D-II programs that could move up and fund for D-I and probably should (Valdosta, Grand Valley, West Georgia, UNC-Pembroke, Fort Valley, Tuskegee, North Alabama, Pittsburg St. There are very few left, the schools with the money and the higher attendance have already gone since the 1990s.

But outside of that, NAIA has all but imploded and most of those schools moved to D-III and D-II where they should be.

[appfan2008]

there will be some sort of pay between fcs and fbs... has to be... they love their money...

[GeauxLions94]

Not correct. Sam Houston State played in the 1986 Division I playoffs!

SHSU, SFA moved up in 1986. Began the transition in 1984 when they formed the Gulf Star. Believe then-Southwest Texas was part of that move too.

Yes, old Gulf Star Conference (which didn't last for very long ... Southeastern played in the 1984-85 seasons) consisted of Sam Houston State, Northwestern State, Southwest Texas, Nicholls State, Southeastern Louisiana, Stephen F. Austin and Northwestern State.

[GannonFan]

If Georgetown won the Patriot League they make the playoffs. Period.

(And, if you check the numbers, Georgetown's 2007 football budget was 22nd among 38 Eastern programs. If scholarships were $5,000 instead of $50,000, this wouldn't even be an issue.)

There's a joke in there somewhere about the chance for Georgetown to go .500 in the Patriot League, let alone actually win the conference. Darn it, can't seem to put my finger on it. xwhistlex

[Thumper250]

Gardner-Webb's first year up was 2000, with 2002 its first year in the Big South and full I-AA/FCS membership in football. There used to be only a two-year wait. Not it's four.

[aceinthehole]

So here's the list of I-AA moveups ever of current teams in the division:

1984: Eastern Washington (D-II)
1986: Morgan St (D-II), Sam Houston St (D-II), Stephen F Austin (D-II), Towson (D-II)
1989: Liberty (D-II), Samford (D-III)
1991: SE Missouri St (D-II)
1992: Tn Martin (D-II)
1993: Butler (D-II), Sacramento St (D-II), CCSU (D-II), Charleston Southern (D-III), Davidson (D-III), Dayton (D-III), Drake (D-III), Duquense (D-III), Georgetown (D-III), Hofstra (D-III), Marist (D-III), St Francis (D-III), San Diego (D-III), Southern Utah (D-II), Valparaiso (D-II), Wagner (D-III)
1994: Cal Poly (D-II)
1995: Hampton (D-II), Jacksonville State (D-II), Wofford (D-II)
1997: Norfolk St (D-II)
1998: Arkansas Pine Bluff (NAIA), Portland State (D-II)
1999: Elon (D-II), Alabama A&M (D-II), Sacred Heart (D-II), Albany (D-II), Stony Brook (D-II)
2002: Savannah St (D-II)
2007: UC-Davis (D-II), Northern Colorado (D-II)
2008: NC Central (D-II), North Dakota St (D-II), South Dakota St (D-II)

Soon: Presbyterian (D-II), NC Central (D-II), WSSU (D-II), North Dakota (D-II), South Dakota (D-II)

So, of this list, who doesn't belong? And how is D-II (or D-III for that matter) watered down?

I think that D-I is more watered down by the sheer number of non-football schools that've moved up in general....

Division I is an NCAA athletic classification, not just a football desgnation.

Many of the schools on that list were NCAA D-I schools well before the 1993 "Dayton rule."

[gophoenix]

Division I is an NCAA athletic classification, not just a football desgnation.

Many of the schools on that list were NCAA D-I schools well before the 1993 "Dayton rule."

I know, but we are talking about football here, watering down D-II and FCS.

[Go...gate]

GP many of these schools are watering down the FCS including:

Morgan St (D-II)
Butler (D-II), CCSU (D-II), Davidson (D-III), Dayton (D-III), Drake (D-III), Duquesne (D-III), Georgetown (D-III), Marist (D-III), St Francis (D-III), Valparaiso (D-II), Wagner (D-III)
Arkansas Pine Bluff (NAIA)
Sacred Heart (D-II)
Savannah St (D-II)

1993 must have been when the Div. 1 bball rule must have been implemented because the majority of those schools can not compete at the FCS level. No team above has a chance to ever make the playoffs or break into the top 40 of the FCS. This is just my opinion, but there are ~20-25 teams at the FCS level that don't fund their programs in a manner to compete at this level.

Respectfully, you are being pretty parochial and ignoring some heavy-duty history with regard to the embolded schools, which not only made enhanced financial commitments with respect to programs and/or facilities, in several cases are vital components to their conferences (as Georgetown is to the Patriot League), and in other cases have a long tradition of football in the old "University Division" conferences, such as Drake, which, AIR, was a fine Missouri Valley Conference program for many years.

[aceinthehole]

I know, but we are talking about football here, watering down D-II and FCS.

Yes, but the NCAA moratorium is about reclassifing their athletic programs, not just football. The moratium was put in place becase of the lure of basektball $$$.

I still don't see your point in this.

[gophoenix]

Yes, but the NCAA moratorium is about reclassifing their athletic programs, not just football. The moratium was put in place becase of the lure of basektball $$$.

I still don't see your point in this.

Then move along and leave the conversation to those who do see the point....

[aceinthehole]

Then move along and leave the conversation to those who do see the point....

The point is you have some warped "ideal" for what FCS should be. From the posts in this thread its clear many people disagre with your preception.

xrotatehx

[gophoenix]

The point is you have some warped "ideal" for what FCS should be. From the posts in this thread its clear many people disagre with your preception.

xrotatehx

The point was made that FCS and D-II were being watered down by the moveups, moveouts, etc. I don't really think so.

So, I posted every moveup of current FCS schools and asked who didn't belong.

[WileECoyote06]

Funny how people become holier than thou. There's an argument about competitiveness, but this decision isn't about competitiveness at all. It's driven by the same decision that caused the NCAA to put out the moratorium and to add additional years to the reclassification process.

Basketball money. The BCS conference schools generate the bulk of it and don't want it to trickle down anymore of it than is already being given out. They also are tired of risking their reputation in a loss to Podunk U out of Yamacraw, NC in the basketball tournament.

Football isn't as much of a concern since the conferences can negotiate their own deals. With basketball they have to split that CBS - Road to 64 Pie 300+ ways.

[Saint3333]

Respectfully, you are being pretty parochial and ignoring some heavy-duty history with regard to the embolded schools, which not only made enhanced financial commitments with respect to programs and/or facilities, in several cases are vital components to their conferences (as Georgetown is to the Patriot League), and in other cases have a long tradition of football in the old "University Division" conferences, such as Drake, which, AIR, was a fine Missouri Valley Conference program for many years.

If you think Davidson, Marist,etc. are competing we may have different definitions.

[JDC325]

Are you freaking kidding me? As if they didn't make enough money already.


Does this involve FCS to FBS moves, too? Or is it just D2 to D1?

The FCS is DIV I so should not affect any of us. I would like to see minimum scholarship requirements for the FCS.

[gophoenix]

The FCS is DIV I so should not affect any of us. I would like to see minimum scholarship requirements for the FCS.

I think that's fair as there is one for FBS. What is the minimum for FBS?

So what should the minimum be? 1 greater than the D-II limit?

[DFW HOYA]

The FCS is DIV I so should not affect any of us. I would like to see minimum scholarship requirements for the FCS.

There's no downward mobility for those who do not meet your standard, because the rules on Division I membership remain based on sports sponsored, not scholarships.

[coover]

Looks like the end of football for some DII schools on the west coast. Take a look at the western region for DII. There are, I believe, only 4 football playing DII schools in the west. There is only 1 DII football league in the west, and things are so bad there that the teams in the league play the other members 2 games, home and away, each year. it may be the only way to survive would be to move up to FCS. and how is a school with 4000 students in a community of 8000 going to afford $1000000? of course, you might say, how is a school of 4000 students in a small community going to afford 63 scholarships? And that, too, is a reasonable question.

[Jackman]

I think that's fair as there is one for FBS. What is the minimum for FBS?

So what should the minimum be? 1 greater than the D-II limit?

The minimum for FBS is 90% of the maximum, or 76.5 scholarships. Since FBS does not permit partial scholarships, that probably rounds up to 77, or 14 more than the maximum allowed in FCS. Not to mention about 7 more than the number of players who typically make the travel roster.

FBS Football is the only NCAA sport that has a minimum athletic scholarship requirement. It is also the only NCAA sport that has a minimum attendance requirement. It used to have a minimum stadium capacity requirement, but no longer does. It is one of only two (possibly three?) NCAA sports that prohibit partial scholarships. Men's Basketball is the other, though you do have the option of not issuing scholarships at all in that sport. I forget whether Women's Basketball also has that prohibition against partials.

I do not support a minimum athletic scholarship requirement in FCS Football or any other NCAA sport, including FBS Football.

[gophoenix]

The minimum for FBS is 90% of the maximum, or 76.5 scholarships. Since FBS does not permit partial scholarships, that probably rounds up to 77, or 14 more than the maximum allowed in FCS. Not to mention about 7 more than the number of players who typically make the travel roster.

FBS Football is the only NCAA sport that has a minimum athletic scholarship requirement. It is also the only NCAA sport that has a minimum attendance requirement. It used to have a minimum stadium capacity requirement, but no longer does. It is one of only two (possibly three?) NCAA sports that prohibit partial scholarships. Men's Basketball is the other, though you do have the option of not issuing scholarships at all in that sport. I forget whether Women's Basketball also has that prohibition against partials.

I do not support a minimum athletic scholarship requirement in FCS Football or any other NCAA sport, including FBS Football.

And that is fair. So, the question is, what is or should be the separation be then? D-III is non-scholarship. D-I is scholarship, and D-III is scholarship. If you do not support minimums, then, should there be a D-II at all? Should it be just scholarship and non-scholarship divisions? Should there be an attendance requirement to separate divisions? Or, should it be based on number of sports offered (even if there is no scholarship requirement?)

What should be the separation then.

[Go...gate]

If you think Davidson, Marist,etc. are competing we may have different definitions.

They are not competing like you guys are, arguably the most "FBS" of the FCS schools. But they are pumping money into their programs and facilities. Marist just built a new ballpark.

[mizzoufan1]

Apparently has no impact on FCS schools moving to FBS, so for most of us, not a concern.

But from a cynic side, who is the recipient of this $1M fee? The NCAA? Does it get split over every school already in DI? I'm not sure how this fee would hold up in court - paying for administrative fees certainly makes sense, but I don't see where anyone has the authority, legally, to charge that kind of money for a school to make an individual decision for thier own interests.

The NCAA has already overstepped its charter authority when it did the banning of Mascots and the new "gambling" rule.

I am wondering when a conference or two worth of HIGH profile schools decide to tell the NCAA to shove it and form a new association. (The SEC and/or Big 10 is the most likely to do that!)

[mizzoufan1]

But outside of that, NAIA has all but imploded and most of those schools moved to D-III and D-II where they should be.

What do you mean the NAIA has imploded? It is stronger than ever...I should know, I graduated from a NAIA school and the association works!

Just remember that the NAIA is the older of the two associations...

[mizzoufan1]

The FCS is DIV I so should not affect any of us. I would like to see minimum scholarship requirements for the FCS.

That will NEVER happen. The Ivy League will see to that. (They still have a ton of power...they just never use it...)

[mizzoufan1]

I think that's fair as there is one for FBS. What is the minimum for FBS?

So what should the minimum be? 1 greater than the D-II limit?

Current "Scholarship" requirements are this (football only):

FBS: 85 Schollys that may NOT be divided.
FCS: Depends on the league but generally 63 schollys that may NOT be divided. Or Grants in aid...
D-II: 36 Schollys or Grants in Aid that may be divided.
D-III: No Schollys allowed, but academic grants in aid are allowed.
NAIA: 20-50 (dividable) depending on the Conference.

[MSUBear42]

All caught up now, Zou?? ;)

[UAalum72]

Current "Scholarship" requirements are this (football only):

FBS: 85 Schollys that may NOT be divided.
FCS: Depends on the league but generally 63 schollys that may NOT be divided. Or Grants in aid...
D-II: 36 Schollys or Grants in Aid that may be divided.
D-III: No Schollys allowed, but academic grants in aid are allowed.
NAIA: 20-50 (dividable) depending on the Conference.
Those aren't "requirements" but "limits".

The only "requirement" for scholarships is that FBS must maintain an average of 76.5 per year (90% of the max)

And 63 FCS scholarships can be divided among up to 85 players. I suppose unless a league REQUIRED full rides only (and does ANY FCS require that?)