AQ for Pioneer Football League?

[TexasTerror]

Just rec'd a PM in wake of my post about the future of the Pioneer League and felt this justified its own response.

Apparently, according to this individual, who will rename nameless, the Pioneer will apply for an AQ next year and could in the very near future, have a ticket to the 'playoff party'. Wish we could get some confirmation on this subject matter from the Pioneer office, but I am sure this will make the fans at San Diego and Dayton happy - and possibly bring to an end an effort by those to pull USD into the GWC...

Doing this would have 'all hands on deck' for the playoffs outside of the SWAC and Ivy. We know the SWAC is not going to get involved, but can we give some more 'nudge' to the Ivy to do so?

Back on subject - Pioneer as an AQ. Thoughts?

[Go...gate]

If true, I'm very pleased. They should be given an opportunity to participate, and Ivy and SWAC should be compelled to do so or risk re-designation.

[DFW HOYA]

If true, I'm very pleased. They should be given an opportunity to participate, and Ivy and SWAC should be compelled to do so or risk re-designation.


Re-designation? These conferences aren't going anywhere.

[coover]

and possibly bring to an end an effort by those to pull USD into the GWC...

There is a reason why San Diego should not join the GWC?

[TexasTerror]

There is a reason why San Diego should not join the GWC?

To compete on equal footing against like-non scholarship teams.

I wonder if an AQ for the Pioneer will open the door even more for those schools considering Div I football - but only if they could go to the playoffs.

If the Pioneer, Big South and NEC increase the AQ pool to 11, do the playoffs need to expand to 22?

[blukeys]

If true, I'm very pleased. They should be given an opportunity to participate, and Ivy and SWAC should be compelled to do so or risk re-designation.

They already have an opportunity to participate. Where have you been??? They could get an at-large bid. Just as the Big South did with Coastal Carolina.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

They already have an opportunity to participate. Where have you been??? They could get an at-large bid. Just as the Big South did with Coastal Carolina.


Freeze the thread for a sec! Let me get my popcorn. xlolx



In all seriousness, though, I have no problem with it, but if there's going to be an expansion I want at least two at-large spots added.

[Go...gate]

They already have an opportunity to participate. Where have you been??? They could get an at-large bid. Just as the Big South did with Coastal Carolina.


I forgot - we have to make sure 8 or 9 CAA teams get in!!! (j/k) xlolx

[Go...gate]

Re-designation? These conferences aren't going anywhere.

You're right that they aren't going anywhere, but it makes FCS kind of a mish-mash. Wht not have all the conference champs in the National Tournament?

[TheValleyRaider]

Good for the Pioneer if this is the case (can't wait to hear DetroitFlyer on this)

As for the teams from the CAA, SoCon and others who may get left out, I have a hard time feeling too broken up about a 3rd place team not qualifying for the National Championship

The question at this point would be what, if any, changes would be coming to the playoffs. Obviously 20 teams wouldn't be the appropriate number if the NCAA were intent on following its rules regarding autobids vs. at-larges. Certainly there's no guarantee of that. I suppose, short of any change to the system as it will exist in 2010, would be for the NCAA to review the applications of the conferences for autobids every year and end up leaving someone out. It will be interesting to see how that plays out if indeed the PFL intends to apply

[PantherRob82]

The PFL has not proven itself on the field. If they want playoff inclusion they can schedule a good OOC schedule and would have no problem getting in. If Drake would've beat Illinois State and UNI in the same season, they would've most likely gotten an at-large bid. Instead, UNI exposed them and their season went downhill from there.

[bostonspider]

As for the teams from the CAA, SoCon and others who may get left out, I have a hard time feeling too broken up about a 3rd place team not qualifying for the National Championship


Ofcourse you realize that the current defending champs were a 3rd place finisher last season in the CAA South no less...

[Jackman]

Keep in mind that for the Pioneer to get an AQ, they'll either have to take an AQ away from some other conference, or increase the size of the playoffs to at least 22. NCAA regulations limit AQs to no more than half the spots in postseason tournaments, and with the additions of the NEC and Big South AQs we'll be maxxed at 10 AQs when the playoffs are expanded to 20.

The most likely way that a 22 team football tournament would be run is that 12 teams would play in the first round and 10 teams would get a first round bye. That's actually less lopsided than the planned 20 team format, in which 8 teams will play in the first round and 12 teams will get a bye. The playoffs can expand to a maximum of 32 without adding another week to the schedule (compared to the 20 team format).

Honestly, if we're going to have a 20 team tournament anyway, I don't see any downside to going to 22. As long as they cover their travel costs, let the Pioneers play.

[FargoBison]

Give the Pioneer an AQ? I don't agree with it unless a majority of their schools agree to play tougher schedules. I don't care how many scholarships they have or if they give them at all, but if they want in then they have to step up.

[danefan]

More power to them if they want it. There is very little downside to having 22 teams in the playoffs. There is a lot of upside - more interest in the FCS playoffs. Right now the fans of the PFL teams have very little interest in the playoffs. Is more interest in the FCS playoffs a bad thing ever?

Guaranteed playoff access = better recruits = better teams = more competitive.

Would anyone here turn the Ivy's away if they wanted an AQ? There is no reason the PFL cannot consistently compete on the same level as the Ivy league. The top of the PFL has shown in many years that it can beat the Ivy league and PL teams. They have the same exact financial aid structure and a lot of the teams have good academic reputations (clearly not to the level of the Ivy's, but good nonetheless and dare I say that Dayton probably carries more academic cred in the Midwest than Bucknell or Lehigh).

[TheValleyRaider]

Ofcourse you realize that the current defending champs were a 3rd place finisher last season in the CAA South no less...

And more power to them, but that still doesn't mean I would have felt the playoffs were any less legitimate had the Spiders (and other non-champions) been kept out

I'm not saying Richmond didn't deserve to be in, but why does a team that wasn't even the best team in its own conference make it over a conference champ?

[FargoBison]

This year the PFL will play 15 non-DI schools in non-conference play and will have just 14 games against FCS schools.

If the PFL wants this than it is time to rejoin the FCS and do what the NEC is doing. The NEC has just three games against non-DI schools.

[Model Citizen]

The natives are restless about what will happen after the Gridiron Classic is gone.

A Coup d'État is long overdue.

[JayJ79]

Didn't the committee implement something like this:

The Division I playoff committee adopted changes in the selection process that will guarantee entry into the postseason for any conference champion that wins at least eight games against Division I opponents, wins two non-conference games against teams from auto-bid leagues and ranks 16th or higher in an average of the Sports Network top-25 poll, the coaches poll and the Gridiron Power index (GPI) computer ranking.

I wouldn't have a problem with the PL champion getting a bid if they met that criteria. (most especially the non-conference wins)

[Tribe4SF]

And more power to them, but that still doesn't mean I would have felt the playoffs were any less legitimate had the Spiders (and other non-champions) been kept out

I'm not saying Richmond didn't deserve to be in, but why does a team that wasn't even the best team in its own conference make it over a conference champ?

Because there are criteria and requirements to make the field, and because the committee is tasked to pick the best eight teams to complete the field. The other side of your coin is...why should a conference champ with a loss to UNC-Pembroke, and no wins over teams from auto-bid conferences get in over a team that might (and did) win the national championship?

Jacksonville's 2008 non-conference games...

JU 20 Savannah State 7
ASU 56 Jacksonville 7
UNC-Pembroke 22 JU 21
JU 51 Webber International 7
Albany 28 JU 0

[TexasTerror]

FYI - source wrote me again saying the information is straight out of Patty Viverito, the PFL commish's mouth.


I wouldn't have a problem with the PL champion getting a bid if they met that criteria. (most especially the non-conference wins)

The criteria is the 'bridge' plan for those conferences getting AQs in 2010 for the 2009 playoffs.

[DetroitFlyer]

Well, I hope this "rumor" is correct.... I have heard from good sources that the PFL will more than likely obtain an automatic bid to the FCS playoffs.... I did not hear a timetable, however, and having been sorely disappointed many times in the past relative to the whole playoff thing, I will believe it when I see it.

With the Gridiron Classic going away, it would be a good time.... Playing for a "division" championship is just not all that interesting....

Regardless of your thoughts on this matter, it makes ZERO sense for a conference fully in compliance with ALL FCS rules to be systemically excluded from the playoffs.... I surely hope that this rumor is true....

[PantherRob82]

I think if they had any intention of giving the PFL an auto-bid that they would've given the undefeated San Diego team an at-large.

[UNI Pike]

Let the PFL & OVC have a play in game for the tournament - maybe the OVC AQ will finally win a playoff game in my lifetime.

[MoreheadEagle]

I'll throw in my .02. Does the PFL deserve an AQ? I don't know. I do know that the conference needs to step up their scheduling but one problem is FCS teams may not want to play us. In Morehead's case, no OVC team really wants to play MSU b/c there is no benefit. The have to pay $ and might get beat. If all the PFL teams step up their scheduling then I think they deserve an AQ.

This is coming from a guy who hates that his school is in the PFL.

[danefan]

I think if they had any intention of giving the PFL an auto-bid that they would've given the undefeated San Diego team an at-large.

That logic was probably correct before the NEC and Big South were granted AQ's and the playoffs were expanded.

Adding an 11th AQ for the PFL does not expand the playoffs and there is no real administrative hurdle to clear. You just have to add another at-large and add a game into the opening round.

What argument does the NCAA have against granting the PFL an AQ? In the past it was that they would have to take an AQ away from a stronger conference. That's not the case any more. And like it or not, the NCAA is about "inclusion." Hence, the 64 teams in the bball tourney.

If the PFL really does request an AQ, I would think its a sure thing that they would get it.

The next question is what are the ramifications of that AQ?

[ericsaid]

Not a good idea seeing as App beat the Pioneer league champion 56-7 with monstly 2nd stringers in 2008. A year where the didn't advance past the quarterfinals.

[coover]

There is a reason why San Diego should not join the GWC?


To compete on equal footing against like-non scholarship teams.

It is true that the University Of San Diego, a beautiful school, by the way, gives no athletic scholarships. This would seem to place them at disadvantage with teams in the Great West, which can offer as many as 63 each year. But, in fact, their "no athletic scholarships" policy is misleading.

San Diego can and will always find a way to bring a highly skilled athlete to their school. Good Grades? - Academic Scholarship! Poor Family? - Scholarship based on need! Etc., etc., etc. No athlete ever got away from the San Diego recruiters because they couldn't offer him an athletic scholarship. I don't know how many of these non-athletic scholarships they hand out for football every year, but they do hand out a considerable number.

[Saint3333]

Once they expanded the playoffs to 20 teams it was just a matter of time before it went to 24 and then 32 teams...

Welcome to little league where everyone gets a trophy. 16 teams was/is enough PERIOD.

[Go...gate]

Give the Pioneer an AQ? I don't agree with it unless a majority of their schools agree to play tougher schedules. I don't care how many scholarships they have or if they give them at all, but if they want in then they have to step up.

Very valid point. They should be playing all FCS, for example.

[Go...gate]

Well, I hope this "rumor" is correct.... I have heard from good sources that the PFL will more than likely obtain an automatic bid to the FCS playoffs.... I did not hear a timetable, however, and having been sorely disappointed many times in the past relative to the whole playoff thing, I will believe it when I see it.

With the Gridiron Classic going away, it would be a good time.... Playing for a "division" championship is just not all that interesting....

Regardless of your thoughts on this matter, it makes ZERO sense for a conference fully in compliance with ALL FCS rules to be systemically excluded from the playoffs.... I surely hope that this rumor is true....

Agreed.

[DetroitFlyer]

As I have looked into this further today, this is far from a done deal. Perhaps the idea has been floated and even discussed by the PFL, but as of today there is nothing official to support this rumor.

[GannonFan]

It could certainly happen, and if the PFL really wants it there's nothing to stop them. Petition the NCAA for an autobid and in all likliehood they'll get one. It's not like the NCAA has turned them down for one.

As for the playoffs, in all likliehood we'll eventually be looking at a 24 team tournament. Of course, that will elicit howls when the CAA, at that time a 14 team league, gets 8 teams in, but when you have that many at larges out there it won't be surprising to see someone like the CAA snag a lot of them. In the end, is 24 teams really any different from 20 teams? Doesn't add a week to the schedule so I've got no problem with it.

[aceinthehole]

As I have looked into this further today, this is far from a done deal. Perhaps the idea has been floated and even discussed by the PFL, but as of today there is nothing official to support this rumor.

Thanks DF.

All these comments about the PFL's "playoff worthiness" are unnecessary.

If they want in, they should have access. But as Flyer has pointed out, the league has yet to give any indication they want an AQ. In fact, its just the opposite - the PL commish has made numerous public statements that they have NO INTENT to ask for an AQ.

Most of you are getting riled up about a non-story.

[TexasTerror]

In fact, its just the opposite - the PL commish has made numerous public statements that they have NO INTENT to ask for an AQ.

According to my source, who is relatively well-placed in the FCS spectrum, the words came from Patty V's mouth that they would be applying for an AQ.

I am not sure on timeframe, but perhaps this change of direction comes from meetings, conversations amongst the Pioneer League 'powers that be' (i.e. Presidents, ADs, football coaches).

[coover]

Very valid point. They should be playing all FCS, for example.

I think your statement that they should be playing all FCS is very unfair. My school, Cal Poly, would love to play all FCS or FBS and would, if they could find 7 FBS or FCS schools actually willing to play them (along with the other 4 GWFC teams). They would, for example, love to play U San Diego, but USD refuses to play them.

For the 2009 season, two schools on Poly's schedule asked to be taken off the schedule in order to play FBS schools. Money wise, this was good for the Poly Football program as the two schools will pay Poly for the privilege of being beaten by the FBS schools, but it left Poly with two holes in it's schedule. One of the holes was satisfactorily filled with the addition of Weber State. In fact, that may be a very good game. But the other hole was not filled because NO DI school was found that could or WOULD play Poly on any available open date. So Poly, in order to get an 11th game, finally asked DII Dixie State if they would come to San Luis Obispo. They could, and they will on October 24.

Of course, this will make getting into the playoffs difficult, with only 8 FCS games and 2 FBS games. If they lose both FBS games (I do believe they have a chance in both, but they will be underdogs), they'll almost have to go 8-0 in the FCS games to make the playoffs as the GWFC is not large enough to have an automatic berth. With games against Montana and Weber State, that may be very difficult.

I can certainly understand your concern about the PL getting the AQ. It may be for a different reason, but the GWFC has the same problem.

[DetroitFlyer]

Very valid point. They should be playing all FCS, for example.

Not even remotely valid. The PFL complies with EVERY scheduling requirement for FCS, just like every other FCS conference. If the NCAA does not like the schedule of any given conference, then change the rules. Until then, if you meet all the rules, and desire an autobid, you should have it.

[FargoBison]

Not even remotely valid. The PFL complies with EVERY scheduling requirement for FCS, just like every other FCS conference. If the NCAA does not like the schedule of any given conference, then change the rules. Until then, if you meet all the rules, and desire an autobid, you should have it.

The PFL has 15 non conference games against non-DI schools this year and just 14 against FCS teams. Their scheduling habits are a complete joke, 3/4 of the league has no intention of competing in the FCS. If they want a seat at the table then it is time to play at least 2/3 of your non-conference games against DI competition(which would still probably be more than any other AQ league).

[TexasTerror]

I believe the Pioneer League automatic qualifier (and all AQs for that matter) should be required to win SEVEN games against Division I teams or forfeit their AQ spot for the year. The only exceptions should be like what happened to Nicholls in 2005.

This would more than likely force the Pioneer teams to increase the amount of Division I teams on their schedule, which would not be a bad thing...

[Go...gate]

Not even remotely valid. The PFL complies with EVERY scheduling requirement for FCS, just like every other FCS conference. If the NCAA does not like the schedule of any given conference, then change the rules. Until then, if you meet all the rules, and desire an autobid, you should have it.

Then the scheduling requirements should be changed. Why should many FCS teams play tough schedules with all FCS teams while some FCS teams play only 6-8 games in the subdivsion. How many Webber International's need be on anybody's schedule in FCS?

[JayJ79]

Then the scheduling requirements should be changed. Why should many FCS teams play tough schedules with all FCS teams while some FCS teams play only 6-8 games in the subdivsion. How many Webber International's need be on anybody's schedule in FCS?

What FCS teams play only 6 games in the subdivision? Are there really teams that play 5 games against D2/D3/NAIA (or FBS, I guess) opponents?

[Go...gate]

I may have overstated it a bit, but you get the idea.

[JayJ79]

I believe the Pioneer League automatic qualifier (and all AQs for that matter) should be required to win SEVEN games against Division I teams or forfeit their AQ spot for the year. The only exceptions should be like what happened to Nicholls in 2005.

This would more than likely force the Pioneer teams to increase the amount of Division I teams on their schedule, which would not be a bad thing...

Sounds like a good rule to me.

[Go...gate]

I believe the Pioneer League automatic qualifier (and all AQs for that matter) should be required to win SEVEN games against Division I teams or forfeit their AQ spot for the year. The only exceptions should be like what happened to Nicholls in 2005.

This would more than likely force the Pioneer teams to increase the amount of Division I teams on their schedule, which would not be a bad thing...

Certainly a move in the right direction - especially since there are not a lot of FCS schools in all regions. :)

[JohnStOnge]

As for the teams from the CAA, SoCon and others who may get left out, I have a hard time feeling too broken up about a 3rd place team not qualifying for the National Championship

Alas, I will always remember that the third place team from the then Gateway Conference, Youngstown State, beat McNeese 10-9 in the 1997 national championship game. What really makes it hard is that McNeese beat the Gateway's second place team (Northern Iowa) 22-5 at home during the regular season and its first place team (Western Illinois) 14-12 in the playoffs. Very, VERY frustrating. Especially given that a McNeese's all conference tight end dropped an easy TD pass in the end zone so that the Cowboys had to settle for a field goal during a very "defensive" 1 point game.

[SDFS]

More power to them if they want it. There is very little downside to having 22 teams in the playoffs. There is a lot of upside - more interest in the FCS playoffs. Right now the fans of the PFL teams have very little interest in the playoffs. Is more interest in the FCS playoffs a bad thing ever?

Guaranteed playoff access = better recruits = better teams = more competitive.

Would anyone here turn the Ivy's away if they wanted an AQ? There is no reason the PFL cannot consistently compete on the same level as the Ivy league. The top of the PFL has shown in many years that it can beat the Ivy league and PL teams. They have the same exact financial aid structure and a lot of the teams have good academic reputations (clearly not to the level of the Ivy's, but good nonetheless and dare I say that Dayton probably carries more academic cred in the Midwest than Bucknell or Lehigh).

I am fairly new to FCS and I am not completely familiar with the aid structure of the PFL and other similuar conferences..? How does the financial aid structure work with Title IX requirements? and I personally believe that that the school should be the basis for better recruits which leads to better teams and more competitive games. Then a team is rewarded with an entry into the playoffs.



Regardless of your thoughts on this matter, it makes ZERO sense for a conference fully in compliance with ALL FCS rules to be systemically excluded from the playoffs.... I surely hope that this rumor is true....

The world is full of crazy rules... just because the rules suite your needs does not make them right. If your team is in the top 10/15 it stands a good chance of making the playoffs - plain and simple.

Team A:
- Makes a commitment to the football program that includes 63 schollies and meets full Title IX requirements.

- Plays two FBS payout games to pay for 63 schollies plus Title IX.

- Plays a full FCS schedule travelling great distances.

- Plays in a conference with other teams that are at or near 63. The conference is usually ranked in the top four nationally of FCS conferences.

- Team wins the conference but it does not have an AQ because the conference does not meet the min. number of teams in a conference rule.

- Meets the requirements for making the playoffs and is ranked 15th in country and they might not make the playoffs.

vs

Team B:
- No scholarships

- Plays in a conference with other no scholarship schools

- Plays non conference schedule with other non scholarship schools or lower division schools.

- This team wins the conference and is ranked in the mid 40/50s and gets a playoff birth.

Which team deserves the playoff birth?

[danefan]

I am fairly new to FCS and I am not completely familiar with the aid structure of the PFL and other similuar conferences..? How does the financial aid structure work with Title IX requirements? and I personally believe that that the school should be the basis for better recruits which leads to better teams and more competitive games. Then a team is rewarded with an entry into the playoffs.



The financial aid structure of the PFL is the exact same as the Ivy league financial aid structure. Zero aid based on athletic ability. A ton of academic aid and need-based grants given to football players.

As far I understand, the aid given in both the Ivy and PFL does not need to be countered under Title IX as the aid is not specific to male athletes. It is aid available to the entire student body. Thus no unequal access to athletics for male athletes, which is the standard for Title IX.

[kdinva]

Not a good idea seeing as App beat the Pioneer league champion 56-7 with monstly 2nd stringers in 2008. A year where the didn't advance past the quarterfinals.

What would be the line for Davidson v. Montana?xcoffeex

[danefan]

What would be the line for Davidson v. Montana?xcoffeex

Unrealistic using Davidson.

The historical powers of the PFL - Dayton and San Diego would have at least the same odds as the Colgate vs. Nova game this year, or the Delaware vs. Delaware State game the year before.

[Big Al]

I don't know where people get the idea that adding an AQ means expanding the playoffs. Nowhere in the playoff handbook is there a rule like that.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/1_football_handbook.pdf

Look at page 12.

[UAalum72]

I don't know where people get the idea that adding an AQ means expanding the playoffs. Nowhere in the playoff handbook is there a rule like that.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/champ_handbooks/football/2008/1_football_handbook.pdf

Look at page 12.
Did YOU look at page 12?

"The Division I Championships/Competition Cabinet policy stipulates that for the Division I Football Championship at least 50 percent of the bracket shall be reserved for at-large selections, and no more than 50 percent of the bracket shall be available for automatic qualification of eligible conferences."

Right now, 8 AQs of 16. In 2010, 10 AQs of 20. Add the Pioneer, Ivy or SWAC and you'd have to add at-large bids to keep the bracket at 50%.

I believe this policy applies to all NCAA playoff sports, not just FCS.

[GannonFan]

Alas, I will always remember that the third place team from the then Gateway Conference, Youngstown State, beat McNeese 10-9 in the 1997 national championship game. What really makes it hard is that McNeese beat the Gateway's second place team (Northern Iowa) 22-5 at home during the regular season and its first place team (Western Illinois) 14-12 in the playoffs. Very, VERY frustrating. Especially given that a McNeese's all conference tight end dropped an easy TD pass in the end zone so that the Cowboys had to settle for a field goal during a very "defensive" 1 point game.

Not any more frustrating than a UD fan having to watch McNeese convert a 4th and 1 the week before in Newark, where the play was covered and the UD DB jumped a hair too soon and just missed swatting the ball away. McNeese converts, ends up kicking a FG as time expired, and then you get frustrated the next week. xnodx

[Big Al]

Did YOU look at page 12?

"The Division I Championships/Competition Cabinet policy stipulates that for the Division I Football Championship at least 50 percent of the bracket shall be reserved for at-large selections, and no more than 50 percent of the bracket shall be available for automatic qualification of eligible conferences."

Right now, 8 AQs of 16. In 2010, 10 AQs of 20. Add the Pioneer, Ivy or SWAC and you'd have to add at-large bids to keep the bracket at 50%.

I believe this policy applies to all NCAA playoff sports, not just FCS.

Whoops. You got me -- I guess I was reading that sentence backwards.

[BearsCountry]

If PFL was an AQ league, Drake would have no trouble scheduling. The MVC schools would play them for sure then, and more than likely would travel to Des Moines as well.

[Model Citizen]

I believe this policy applies to all NCAA playoff sports, not just FCS

There is actually a bylaw addressing this, and it applies the 50% rule to many sports, but NOT FCS. As you say, for FCS, it's a policy. Policies can be changed by a committee fairly easily.

[PantherRob82]

If PFL was an AQ league, Drake would have no trouble scheduling. The MVC schools would play them for sure then, and more than likely would travel to Des Moines as well.

I don't think Drake WANTS to play MVC schools. At least, not us.

[TexasTerror]

We may be hearing something this next weekend...

An e-mail just came in my mailbox saying, "the PFL is meeting this weekend to decide whether they will request an AQ which in the future could push the field to 22 or 24. "

[DetroitFlyer]

We may be hearing something this next weekend...

An e-mail just came in my mailbox saying, "the PFL is meeting this weekend to decide whether they will request an AQ which in the future could push the field to 22 or 24. "


Would the league really meet over a holiday weekend? Sounds a bit fishy to me....

Who is meeting? The school presidents with Patty? Maybe it is just a teleconference on Friday?

Let's just say that I hope your source is accurate and that the PFL decides to request a bid....

[TexasTerror]

Let's just say that I hope your source is accurate and that the PFL decides to request a bid....

The OVC can only hope... xwhistlex

All kidding aside, if the Pioneer, Big South and NEC join the fray. How far away is the SWAC...? The Ivy?

[TheValleyRaider]

All kidding aside, if the Pioneer, Big South and NEC join the fray. How far away is the SWAC...? The Ivy?

The Ivies will be no closer to joining the postseason than they are right now. In the complex and enclosed world of the Ivy League, the machinations of the Pioneer Football League hardly register on their radar in terms of movement on this issue

[DUPFLFan]

Haven't been on in a while so thanks to DF for keeping hope alive...

Think about this. If there is the chance of an AQ, then wouldn't you think that the PFL would upgrade their schedule? And no PantherRob, Drake wouldn't have to play your team (one of the best) in order to upgrade. There are plenty of MVC teams to play. xthumbsupx If there is no hope of an AQ, then you see the result in the scheduling.

Also for the Title IX question, if football scholarships were given, then schools like the PFL would have the athletic budget of schools like Iowa, Iowa State and larger than Northern Iowa (based on their tuition). all for schools with 1/10th of the enrollment. Why - because they would have to balance the men with women scholarships.

I ran some numbers a couple of years ago on this site. I'm sure a good search would find it.

Back to lurking now...xcoffeex

[joecooll6]

I don't see why ANYONE would have a problem with this if a PFL AQ was accompanied by another at large berth.

So the PFL team would get in, they're happy, and another at large means another team from the CAA, SoCon, MVFC or Big Sky (usually). No one really loses here!

Wasn't it always the plan to go to 24 teams eventually? 20 is such a weird number, and 22 is weirder. I think if the PFL got an AQ, which I'm all for, it would make sense to either:

A.) Try to convince the Ivy or SWAC to join, easier said than done I know. This is probably unlikely (what is the Ivy's rationale for not participating anyway?)
B.) Find SOMEONE to join the Great West so they can be the 12th auto qualifier. Also, no easy task.
C.) Or just expand to 24 and have 13 at larges.

[Go...gate]

The Ivies will be no closer to joining the postseason than they are right now. In the complex and enclosed world of the Ivy League, the machinations of the Pioneer Football League hardly register on their radar in terms of movement on this issue.

Agreed. While the Ivy ADs and Head Coaches want playoff participation, the Presidents do not. The whole thing is regrettable.

[gophoenix]

Haven't been on in a while so thanks to DF for keeping hope alive...

Think about this. If there is the chance of an AQ, then wouldn't you think that the PFL would upgrade their schedule? And no PantherRob, Drake wouldn't have to play your team (one of the best) in order to upgrade. There are plenty of MVC teams to play. xthumbsupx If there is no hope of an AQ, then you see the result in the scheduling.

Also for the Title IX question, if football scholarships were given, then schools like the PFL would have the athletic budget of schools like Iowa, Iowa State and larger than Northern Iowa (based on their tuition). all for schools with 1/10th of the enrollment. Why - because they would have to balance the men with women scholarships.

I ran some numbers a couple of years ago on this site. I'm sure a good search would find it.

Back to lurking now...xcoffeex

If Elon, Richmond, Wofford, Furman, Samford, Hofstra, Gardner-Webb, Presbyterian, Liberty, Hampton, Howard, Northeastern, Villanova and Bethune-Cookman can do it, then you guys can.

[DFW HOYA]

If Elon, Richmond, Wofford, Furman, Samford, Hofstra, Gardner-Webb, Presbyterian, Liberty, Hampton, Howard, Northeastern, Villanova and Bethune-Cookman can do it, then you guys can.

Maybe, maybe not.

Wofford spends 63 pecent of all men's athletic spending on one sport, football. 63 percent is a lot of money, and when one sport gets a lion's share of expenses, it places a limit on what other men's sports can do...and yes, this is an issue of concern I have with Georgetown.

I suspect this is an issue at some of the other Pioneer schools as well, esp. with facilities and ticket revenue. If Wofford can get 13,000 for a game, that's great, but the Butler Bowl might not be able to see 13,000 in a season.

[jmufan999]

As for the teams from the CAA, SoCon and others who may get left out, I have a hard time feeling too broken up about a 3rd place team not qualifying for the National Championship.

hm. how would you have felt if last year's CAA #3, Richmond, would have been left out of the playoffs?

[gophoenix]

Maybe, maybe not.

Wofford spends 63 pecent of all men's athletic spending on one sport, football. 63 percent is a lot of money, and when one sport gets a lion's share of expenses, it places a limit on what other men's sports can do...and yes, this is an issue of concern I have with Georgetown.

I suspect this is an issue at some of the other Pioneer schools as well, esp. with facilities and ticket revenue. If Wofford can get 13,000 for a game, that's great, but the Butler Bowl might not be able to see 13,000 in a season.

Then it really is a choice of either supply and demand (ie get rid of football) or stop whining if you don't get all the perks like teams that do manage off the supply and demand. it is a slap in the face to the teams that are trying and making it otherwise. You haven't seen Charleston Southern or APSU complaining all these years? No, they stepped up and but their best foot forward. They should be treated like glorified independents, because that is what the league is, a group of schools that are acting as independents.

Butler, Drake, Dayton, Valparaiso, San Diego could easily go play in the Great West and have the opportunity for a bid there.
Campbell, Jacksonville could easily go to the Big South and have a chance there.
Davidson, I am sure, would be welcomed by the SoCon and have their shot there.
Morehead State to the OVC where they would get their shot like APSU has.
Marist to the NEC and have their shot there.

Problem solved. The Great West gets its members, the Big South stabilizes in a larger conference, OVC gets another team, SoCon finally gets all football members in one place,

[TheValleyRaider]

hm. how would you have felt if last year's CAA #3, Richmond, would have been left out of the playoffs?

When the playoffs began, and we didn't know Richmond was actually going to win? Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. Richmond won the system as it stands currently. It hardly taints their championship that they didn't win the CAA also. But, if when the postseason began, Richmond were not involved (and for the record, I'm fairly certain the Spiders were hardly the last team in), it would be difficult for me to muster up a great deal of sympathy.

Let's put it this way: in my idealized FCS world, all conference champions get automatic bids, with at-larges to round out the field. When the season opens, you should be able to control your own destiny regarding playoff participation, and conference autobids guarantee that

[gophoenix]

My second point is, the Missouri Valley Conference (ie Patty Viverito) already has petitioned and received an automatic bid and the MVFC has it. Why should the conference be given a second bid that would be used for the Pioneer? The two conferences are run by the same people, out of the same offices, they already have their bid....

By that logic, maybe the CAA should apply for 2 also?

[jmufan999]

When the playoffs began, and we didn't know Richmond was actually going to win? Nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned. Richmond won the system as it stands currently. It hardly taints their championship that they didn't win the CAA also. But, if when the postseason began, Richmond were not involved (and for the record, I'm fairly certain the Spiders were hardly the last team in), it would be difficult for me to muster up a great deal of sympathy.

Let's put it this way: in my idealized FCS world, all conference champions get automatic bids, with at-larges to round out the field. When the season opens, you should be able to control your own destiny regarding playoff participation, and conference autobids guarantee that

yes. your idea is great in "super-happy-everything-is-perfect-and-we-all-dance-on-clouds" fantasy world.

but in reality, doing that would make the playoffs about 5 rounds. and that makes no sense. so go ahead and take your AQ bid. that's cool. and get absolutely pummeled in round 1 or 2. because we both know that's what would happen. ok, I know that... you might not yet.

[TheValleyRaider]

yes. your idea is great in "super-happy-everything-is-perfect-and-we-all-dance-on-clouds" fantasy world.

but in reality, doing that would make the playoffs about 5 rounds. and that makes no sense.

You asked my opinion on the matter, and I gave it to you

Given the intense desire of many around here to see the regular season schedule extended to 12 games, I hardly see why adding an extra week to the postseason instead is somehow unreasonable

The greatest thing about this level of football compared to a certain other level is the ability of so many teams here to control their own destinies. And even here, there are some teams that, quite frankly, can't do that. When the season begins, you should be able to definitively say "This is what we need to do to qualify for the postseason." Not "We need to do this and get some help," but "this is what we can do to make it." As of right now, there are many teams that can't do that, and I don't particularly think that's right

I won't miss an ounce of sleep at night if some team that finished third in a major conference loses out on a playoff birth to the champion of a weaker conference

[Go...gate]

yes. your idea is great in "super-happy-everything-is-perfect-and-we-all-dance-on-clouds" fantasy world.

but in reality, doing that would make the playoffs about 5 rounds. and that makes no sense. so go ahead and take your AQ bid. that's cool. and get absolutely pummeled in round 1 or 2. because we both know that's what would happen. ok, I know that... you might not yet.

I can't wait for the first FB play-off game that approximates 1989 Princeton-Georgetown in the BB tournament. Everybody has pretty much shut up about autobids in BB since then. We need this in FCS.

[89Hen]

Guaranteed playoff access = better recruits = better teams = more competitive.
Biggest misconception going. There are TONS of programs that have guaranteed playoff access that completely stink. Always have, probably always will. The playoffs at 16 was the correct number. At 20 it will be watered down. There aren't 16 worthy teams as it stands. xnonono2x

[89Hen]

Think about this. If there is the chance of an AQ, then wouldn't you think that the PFL would upgrade their schedule?
NO. Just the opposite. The incentive to upgrade the schedules was there when an at-large is the only way to get a bid. With an auto, why upgrade? xconfusedx

[89Hen]

We may be hearing something this next weekend...

An e-mail just came in my mailbox saying, "the PFL is meeting this weekend to decide whether they will request an AQ which in the future could push the field to 22 or 24. "
FWIW, the NEC applied for an auto in 2004ish. xpeacex

[FargoBison]

Valpo has said they won't play scholarship teams anymore, the PFL getting an AQ is a joke. Step up and earn it PFL, your league has done nothing to earn an AQ.

Honestly maybe you should call up DII, DIII, or the NAIA and apply since most of your non-conference games are against schools with those affiliations.

[danefan]

Biggest misconception going. There are TONS of programs that have guaranteed playoff access that completely stink. Always have, probably always will. The playoffs at 16 was the correct number. At 20 it will be watered down. There aren't 16 worthy teams as it stands. xnonono2x

At the bottom of the conferences perhaps because a loser will always have trouble recruiting. But not when you are talking about recruiting at the top of the conference.

Think about a potential recruit who is deciding between Albany and Northeastern. With the NEC AQ in 2010, Coach Ford can now realistically say that the kid has a better chance of seeing post-season play at Albany than he would at Northeastern. That matters for some kids.

[89Hen]

Think about a potential recruit who is deciding between Albany and Northeastern.
Aren't you already getting better recuits than NU? xwhistlex

[Dane96]

LOL....Husky Alum...I am going to ride you like a rented mule with this comment....

Gee Wiz will lose it.

Thanks for the fodder 89!!!!! Rep pts.

[danefan]

Aren't you already getting better recuits than NU? xwhistlex

Some of them probably. But I'm sure UA still loses recruits to lower level CAA teams.

My point is that in the neverending race of recruiting, being able to say your league is an AQ league and has guaranteed access to the playoffs is a recruiting advantage.

[FargoBison]

Some of them probably. But I'm sure UA still loses recruits to lower level CAA teams.

My point is that in the neverending race of recruiting, being able to say your league is an AQ league and has guaranteed access to the playoffs is a recruiting advantage.

Cal Poly seems to do all right for themselves without being in a AQ league.

I think actually being competitive is better for recruiting than an AQ, most PFL teams are not competitive and nor do they seem to want to become competitive.

[89Hen]

My point is that in the neverending race of recruiting, being able to say your league is an AQ league and has guaranteed access to the playoffs is a recruiting advantage.
But it's only worth 1/100th of being able to say if you come here, your folks won't have to pay for college. xnodx

[GannonFan]

I can't wait for the first FB play-off game that approximates 1989 Princeton-Georgetown in the BB tournament. Everybody has pretty much shut up about autobids in BB since then. We need this in FCS.

How do you figure? In BB, people just view the #1vs#16 matchup as a well deserved bye for the #1 seed, and considering a #16 has never won, that's pretty much a true statement. In reality, if that game was really a bye game and there were no #16 seeds very few people would really care. I'm not advocating that, but just saying that there's nothing magical about the #1/#16 game in March Madness, in fact, I dread whenever my local broadcast picks up that game for the time slot in my area. People don't talk about autobids in BB because, really, it doesn't matter. Same thing will happen in football - it will become a defacto bye game for the higher seeded team, and really, that's okay. There should be some reward for being a top seed and if it's playing a PFL, MEAC, or OVC team then so be it. xthumbsupx

[DetroitFlyer]

Well.... The weekend is over.... What was the result of the "meeting"?

[SDFS]

This kind of sounds like a cash for clunkers program - I guess everyone wants something for free vs. earning it!! - Sad!

[blukeys]

This kind of sounds like a cash for clunkers program - I guess everyone wants something for free vs. earning it!! - Sad!

Thus it is so for the PFL. They don't perform against quality opponents such as UNI. They want an AQ for scheduling (although not beating) D-2 teams.

The NEC always was worthy of consideration for a playoff berth based on their aggressive scheduling as was the Big South. The PFL has quality wins against the Blind Little Sisters of the Poor and whines that they don't get an AQ.

I have to say the PFL are the best whiners of all time. By the way how is that hot shot San Diego QB Johnson doing in the Pros??? Has he made some taxi squad or is he working in his Dad's auto parts store?

The PFL is a Division 3 conference masquerading as a FCS conference. Giving them an AQ just denies another better qualified team of the opportunity to compete for a National Championship. They call this fairness, denying the better team a chance for competing for the NC.

Richmond proved last year that the 3rd place team in the CAA could win it all on the field. Denying a team like this for a PFL team playing a D-2 schedule is the worst case of injustice I can think of.

[gophoenix]

Thus it is so for the PFL. They don't perform against quality opponents such as UNI. They want an AQ for scheduling (although not beating) D-2 teams.

The NEC always was worthy of consideration for a playoff berth based on their aggressive scheduling as was the Big South. The PFL has quality wins against the Blind Little Sisters of the Poor and whines that they don't get an AQ.

I have to say the PFL are the best whiners of all time. By the way how is that hot shot San Diego QB Johnson doing in the Pros??? Has he made some taxi squad or is he working in his Dad's auto parts store?

The PFL is a Division 3 conference masquerading as a FCS conference. Giving them an AQ just denies another better qualified team of the opportunity to compete for a National Championship. They call this fairness, denying the better team a chance for competing for the NC.

Richmond proved last year that the 3rd place team in the CAA could win it all on the field. Denying a team like this for a PFL team playing a D-2 schedule is the worst case of injustice I can think of.

I stand by my original comment.

Why should the MVFC get two bids? The Missouri Valley runs both the Pioneer and the MVFC, so why give 1 conference 2 auto-bids???? They've got their 1 bid, they chose to give it to the MVFC, end of story.

My second comment is, the Pioneer schools formed the conference so that they would be out of the general I-AA population. Well, the best way to be considered is to come back to the general I-AA population. Look at the conference, it is hap-hazard, spread from coast to coast (two schools are a 54 hour drive apart). The solution is if they want consideration, to join the rest of our conferences. The Great West would want a bid, so they are a prime candidate to take some teams....

Big South:
-They sit at 7 teams.
-Liberty could be poised for a FBS move
-Coastal could be poised to move to another conference
-Stony Brook could be poised to move to another conference

Solution, they stabilize by adding Jacksonville and Campbell

SoCon:
-Davidson left in what, 1986 or something. Went to the Patriot. That didn't work. They went to the Big South for everything else. That didn't work. Now they are back outside of football.

My feeling is, if they can pay for 4-5 plane rides to the Midwest and West each year, they can fund partial if not 2/3 of scholarships. Bring them back to the SoCon or tell them to get out period (ie, it's ok for them to run over the rest of us roughshod in basketball, but heaven forbid they get run over for football). My gut says the SoCon would take them back.

OVC:
-A lot like the SoCon, Morehead State calls OVC home for everything else. Austin Peay came home a few years ago, it is time for Morehead State to do the same.

Great West:
-Currently sits at 5 teams
-Needs 3 teams now to try for autobid in 2 years (the Dakota schools don't count for a while)

Additon of San Diego gives Cal Poly-SLO and UC-Davis another local school to play that isn't bad.
The addition of Dayton is a little more local for them than the Pioneer, and they aren't bad either.
Drake is up and down, but they play other FCS teams too.

NEC:
Marist could go here, if the NEC wants them. Or maybe the Patriot League would want them. My guess is NEC though, they are local are more competitive than the bottom NEC teams.

Who's Left?
Valparaiso
Butler

Both of these teams have failed to play any team outside of the Pioneer in more than 5 years. So, it is obvious they don't want to participate in this division. They can go Independent or fold.

So, that's my thoughts, it is an all encompassing solution.

[phoenix3]

After experiencing the level of football in the Pioneer league last weekend, I'm not sure that an auto bid wouldn't be an empty, one and out entry. Maybe there should be a PFL vs. MEAC play in game.

[danefan]

I stand by my original comment.

Why should the MVFC get two bids? The Missouri Valley runs both the Pioneer and the MVFC, so why give 1 conference 2 auto-bids???? They've got their 1 bid, they chose to give it to the MVFC, end of story.

My second comment is, the Pioneer schools formed the conference so that they would be out of the general I-AA population. Well, the best way to be considered is to come back to the general I-AA population. Look at the conference, it is hap-hazard, spread from coast to coast (two schools are a 54 hour drive apart). The solution is if they want consideration, to join the rest of our conferences. The Great West would want a bid, so they are a prime candidate to take some teams....

Big South:
-They sit at 7 teams.
-Liberty could be poised for a FBS move
-Coastal could be poised to move to another conference
-Stony Brook could be poised to move to another conference

Solution, they stabilize by adding Jacksonville and Campbell

SoCon:
-Davidson left in what, 1986 or something. Went to the Patriot. That didn't work. They went to the Big South for everything else. That didn't work. Now they are back outside of football.

My feeling is, if they can pay for 4-5 plane rides to the Midwest and West each year, they can fund partial if not 2/3 of scholarships. Bring them back to the SoCon or tell them to get out period (ie, it's ok for them to run over the rest of us roughshod in basketball, but heaven forbid they get run over for football). My gut says the SoCon would take them back.

OVC:
-A lot like the SoCon, Morehead State calls OVC home for everything else. Austin Peay came home a few years ago, it is time for Morehead State to do the same.

Great West:
-Currently sits at 5 teams
-Needs 3 teams now to try for autobid in 2 years (the Dakota schools don't count for a while)

Additon of San Diego gives Cal Poly-SLO and UC-Davis another local school to play that isn't bad.
The addition of Dayton is a little more local for them than the Pioneer, and they aren't bad either.
Drake is up and down, but they play other FCS teams too.

NEC:
Marist could go here, if the NEC wants them. Or maybe the Patriot League would want them. My guess is NEC though, they are local are more competitive than the bottom NEC teams.

Who's Left?
Valparaiso
Butler

Both of these teams have failed to play any team outside of the Pioneer in more than 5 years. So, it is obvious they don't want to participate in this division. They can go Independent or fold.

So, that's my thoughts, it is an all encompassing solution.


Sounds great in theory, but the economic realities are much different than you contemplate. Even the furthest flung PFL team (San Diego) has a travel budget of only about $150,000. Costs of scholarships at these schools would be in the range of $1.5 million to $3 million per year. Scholarships are not going to happen in the PFL.

If anything, the PFL will get more teams (from a combination of downgrades and new programs) and will reduce costs even more by breaking into two divisions.

[danefan]

Thus it is so for the PFL. They don't perform against quality opponents such as UNI. They want an AQ for scheduling (although not beating) D-2 teams.

The NEC always was worthy of consideration for a playoff berth based on their aggressive scheduling as was the Big South. The PFL has quality wins against the Blind Little Sisters of the Poor and whines that they don't get an AQ.

I have to say the PFL are the best whiners of all time. By the way how is that hot shot San Diego QB Johnson doing in the Pros??? Has he made some taxi squad or is he working in his Dad's auto parts store?

The PFL is a Division 3 conference masquerading as a FCS conference. Giving them an AQ just denies another better qualified team of the opportunity to compete for a National Championship. They call this fairness, denying the better team a chance for competing for the NC.

Richmond proved last year that the 3rd place team in the CAA could win it all on the field. Denying a team like this for a PFL team playing a D-2 schedule is the worst case of injustice I can think of.


Your bolded statement is completely false. In fact the result is the exact opposite effect. Giving the PFL an AQ opens up AN ADDITIONAL spot for a major conference team to get an at-large.

Playoffs without the PFL AQ - 10 at larges
Playoffs with the PFL AQ - 11 at larges

[udchuck]

Thus it is so for the PFL. They don't perform against quality opponents such as UNI. They want an AQ for scheduling (although not beating) D-2 teams.

The NEC always was worthy of consideration for a playoff berth based on their aggressive scheduling as was the Big South. The PFL has quality wins against the Blind Little Sisters of the Poor and whines that they don't get an AQ.

I have to say the PFL are the best whiners of all time. By the way how is that hot shot San Diego QB Johnson doing in the Pros??? Has he made some taxi squad or is he working in his Dad's auto parts store?

The PFL is a Division 3 conference masquerading as a FCS conference. Giving them an AQ just denies another better qualified team of the opportunity to compete for a National Championship. They call this fairness, denying the better team a chance for competing for the NC.

Richmond proved last year that the 3rd place team in the CAA could win it all on the field. Denying a team like this for a PFL team playing a D-2 schedule is the worst case of injustice I can think of.
blukeys

You are quite a Jerk,you have no idea what the PFL is all about.First and foremost Education is front and center of there existence. Football is not.
Judging by your post you are not too bright a person,--that shot at SD QB ,Johnson and the PFL are the ramblings of a spoiled brat Child. maybe about 8 years old ??

[blukeys]

Your bolded statement is completely false. In fact the result is the exact opposite effect. Giving the PFL an AQ opens up AN ADDITIONAL spot for a major conference team to get an at-large.

Playoffs without the PFL AQ - 10 at larges
Playoffs with the PFL AQ - 11 at larges

That is one additional at large. Typically at the end of the year there are 4 or 5 teams on the bubble and the argument on this board is that all of them are better than at least one auto bid team. Hey by your logic we might as well go straight to 32 entries into the tournament. We have already blown the extra weekend.
That would give us a total of 16 at larges. We could give 2 AQ's to the CAA. One for the North and one for the South.

We could also add just 2 more weekends and then every FCS team could participate in the playoffs. While we are at it let's imitate the 4th thru 6th grade CYO girls volleyball programs and award a trophy for all the teams and players that participate.

[89Hen]

I stand by my original comment.

Why should the MVFC get two bids? The Missouri Valley runs both the Pioneer and the MVFC, so why give 1 conference 2 auto-bids???? They've got their 1 bid, they chose to give it to the MVFC, end of story.
xconfusedx xsmhx They share a commissioner. I'm not for a Pioneer auto, but it's not because of your reason.

[89Hen]

blukeys

You are quite a Jerk,you have no idea what the PFL is all about.First and foremost Education is front and center of there existence. Football is not.
blukeys post was a little harsh, but you yourself just said football is not the most important thing to the PFL... hence, they are not a DI conference. xpeacex

[danefan]

That is one additional at large. Typically at the end of the year there are 4 or 5 teams on the bubble and the argument on this board is that all of them are better than at least one auto bid team. Hey by your logic we might as well go straight to 32 entries into the tournament. We have already blown the extra weekend.
That would give us a total of 16 at larges. We could give 2 AQ's to the CAA. One for the North and one for the South.

We could also add just 2 more weekends and then every FCS team could participate in the playoffs. While we are at it let's imitate the 4th thru 6th grade CYO girls volleyball programs and award a trophy for all the teams and players that participate.

No my logic doesn't extend that far. My logic only extends as far as allowing an AQ for every FCS conference which is in compliance with the rules set forth and wants an AQ. The PFL is in compliance with every single rule the NCAA has ever set forth. If they want an AQ then there is no reason not to give it to them.

And if I follow your logic we should get rid of the AQ's for the MEAC, OVC and PL? Since there is a bubble team that gets left out of the playoffs and is stronger than the AQ's from these conferences?

[danefan]

blukeys post was a little harsh, but you yourself just said football is not the most important thing to the PFL... hence, they are not a DI conference. xpeacex

Since when is that the criteria for being a DI school or conference? If that's the case then Villanova isn't a DI school and the Patriot League isn't a DI conference either.

[blukeys]

blukeys

You are quite a Jerk,you have no idea what the PFL is all about.First and foremost Education is front and center of there existence. Football is not.
Judging by your post you are not too bright a person,--that shot at SD QB ,Johnson and the PFL are the ramblings of a spoiled brat Child. maybe about 8 years old ??

Nice personal attack. Is that the best you can do is to call someone names such as Jerk and spoiled brat????

If the PFL in not about Football, why is the PFL and their adherents incessantly whining on this board about not getting an AQ? (Of course they never applied until this year but many thought they were deserving. I have always disagreed and stated my reasons based on facts such as losing records against D-2 competition)

My contention is they don't warrant an AQ based on their performance on the field. If you think their performance on the field warrants an AQ. Perhaps you could let us know about all the wins PFL teams have against teams from AQ conferences in a given year. How many wins do PFL teams have against teams that actually have made it to the playoffs? These are facts you could provide that actually may have the ability to change minds instead of resorting to emotional name calling.

As for Johnson, PFL adherents have used Johnson and the San Diego team he played on as the poster child for AQ status for the PFL. That is until they got beat by a solid FCS team. Over hyping Johnson's talent was a means to to advance that agenda. One San Diego poster even stated that Baltimore "wasted" a draft choice by picking Joe Flacco in the first round.

Perhaps if you had been around for these prior discussions, and this issue has been discussed to death, you would understand what is actually being discussed.

[gophoenix]

No my logic doesn't extend that far. My logic only extends as far as allowing an AQ for every FCS conference which is in compliance with the rules set forth and wants an AQ. The PFL is in compliance with every single rule the NCAA has ever set forth. If they want an AQ then there is no reason not to give it to them.

And if I follow your logic we should get rid of the AQ's for the MEAC, OVC and PL? Since there is a bubble team that gets left out of the playoffs and is stronger than the AQ's from these conferences?

Why, Patriot teams have made the Semi-finals, MEAC and OVC teams have won the championship.

[Dane96]

How long ago?

[89Hen]

MEAC and OVC teams have won the championship.
Before you were born. xpeacex

[89Hen]

Since when is that the criteria for being a DI school or conference? If that's the case then Villanova isn't a DI school and the Patriot League isn't a DI conference either.
Since it became a business years ago.

[danefan]

Why, Patriot teams have made the Semi-finals, MEAC and OVC teams have won the championship.

Ancient history in terms of FCS football.

You cannot hang the PL's AQ on the 2003 Colgate run. They haven't even been close to that level since then.

The MEAC is zero for this century.
Current OVC teams haven't won a playoff game since 1996.

EDIT - changed to 1996. Doesn't make it any better.

[89Hen]

Current OVC teams haven't won a playoff game since 1994.
I think Murray was 1998ish?

edit, just looked. It was 1996 for Murray.

[danefan]

I think Murray was 1998ish?

edit, just looked. It was 1996 for Murray.


Sorry - I'll meet you half way. 1996
http://www.ovcsports.com/pdf1/79758.pdf?ATCLID=879709&SPID=2441&DB_OEM_ID=6200&SPSID=31021

[Go...gate]

Why, Patriot teams have made the Finals, MEAC and OVC teams have won the championship.

Fixed it for ya!! :)

[Go...gate]

Ancient history in terms of FCS football.

You cannot hang the PL's AQ on the 2003 Colgate run. They haven't even been close to that level since then.

The MEAC is zero for this century.
Current OVC teams haven't won a playoff game since 1996.

EDIT - changed to 1996. Doesn't make it any better.

My goodness, it's only been 5 years, for Pete's sake!

You NEC guys go to the play-offs a couple times and win a game or two before you start lobbying to take our AQ away. We blazed the trail for you guys by getting an AQ in 1997 and then proving we earned it by winning some play-off games.

[danefan]

My goodness, it's only been 5 years, for Pete's sake!

You NEC guys go to the play-offs a couple times and win a game or two before you start lobbying to take our AQ away. We blazed the trail for you guys by getting an AQ in 1997 and then proving we earned it by winning some play-off games.


All props to the PL for what they accomplished in the past. But Phoenix you cannot hang the PL's AQ on on run in 2003. And I have never said *(or "lobbied' as you state) that the PL should lose their AQ. My stance is that playoff history shouldn't matter for AQ status.

My statement regarding the PL was in response to Blukeys argument against the PFL AQ.

xpeacex

[blukeys]

No my logic doesn't extend that far. My logic only extends as far as allowing an AQ for every FCS conference which is in compliance with the rules set forth and wants an AQ. The PFL is in compliance with every single rule the NCAA has ever set forth. If they want an AQ then there is no reason not to give it to them.

And if I follow your logic we should get rid of the AQ's for the MEAC, OVC and PL? Since there is a bubble team that gets left out of the playoffs and is stronger than the AQ's from these conferences?

First Danefan there is nothing in the NCAA rules that states that any or all conferences that meet the bare minimum of requirements get an AQ. In fact the AQ conferences are selected in June of every year. While you have stated your opinion well. It is just an opinon.

But following your logic we can get into hot water quickly. With the current membership and the current 6 team conference rule we currently have enough FCS teams to form 20 conferences. With 20 more at large teams this gives a tournament of 40 teams and will extend the playoffs one more weekend. If the NCAA adopted your approach, I see no reason why a shuffling of conferences would not occur to cash in on the AQ bonanza. All we need is to get 17 qualifying conferences and the door is open.

You are correct in that I have consistently stated that Conference AQ's should be revoked for underachieving conferences. I have long advocated that AQ status is not an inherited right forever. The NCAA rules have stated that the Committee decides the auto bid conferences in June of every year. In theory the NCAA committee charged with this responibility is supposed to weigh the relative merits of each conference and decide who should be eligible. In fact this Committee in June of every year refuses to do this and simply rubber stamps the status quo.

Two years back when the NEC first applied for an AQ I supported serious consideration of the application and felt that the NEC had as good or a better case for an AQ then a couple of existing AQ conferences. I also believed then and believe now that actually enforcing existing rules was preferable to expanding the playoffs beyond 16 teams.

We have had numerous threads on this topic and I have not been bashful about expressing my opinion. These discussions go back and forth for the last 3 years with no new information being presented. There have even been ideas floated such as eliminating all AQ's and having all at large teams.

We could have avoided all of this discussion and at times rancor if the NCAA AQ selection committee had simply done its job and objectively considered the merits of applicants for auto bid status and revoked the status of of conferences that were not achieving.

[gophoenix]

All props to the PL for what they accomplished in the past. But Phoenix you cannot hang the PL's AQ on on run in 2003. And I have never said *(or "lobbied' as you state) that the PL should lose their AQ. My stance is that playoff history shouldn't matter for AQ status.

My statement regarding the PL was in response to Blukeys argument against the PFL AQ.

xpeacex

Maybe it shouldn't matter, but, it does, jsut like handing out bids does and giving away home seed does. :(

The deal is, in the 90s, Lehigh and a number of others were known for winning playoff games. So was the MEAC. That wasn't that long ago.

[danefan]

First Danefan there is nothing in the NCAA rules that states that any or all conferences that meet the bare minimum of requirements get an AQ. In fact the AQ conferences are selected in June of every year. While you have stated your opinion well. It is just an opinon.

But following your logic we can get into hot water quickly. With the current membership and the current 6 team conference rule we currently have enough FCS teams to form 20 conferences. With 20 more at large teams this gives a tournament of 40 teams and will extend the playoffs one more weekend. If the NCAA adopted your approach, I see no reason why a shuffling of conferences would not occur to cash in on the AQ bonanza. All we need is to get 17 qualifying conferences and the door is open.

You are correct in that I have consistently stated that Conference AQ's should be revoked for underachieving conferences. I have long advocated that AQ status is not an inherited right forever. The NCAA rules have stated that the Committee decides the auto bid conferences in June of every year. In theory the NCAA committee charged with this responibility is supposed to weigh the relative merits of each conference and decide who should be eligible. In fact this Committee in June of every year refuses to do this and simply rubber stamps the status quo.

Two years back when the NEC first applied for an AQ I supported serious consideration of the application and felt that the NEC had as good or a better case for an AQ then a couple of existing AQ conferences. I also believed then and believe now that actually enforcing existing rules was preferable to expanding the playoffs beyond 16 teams.

We have had numerous threads on this topic and I have not been bashful about expressing my opinion. These discussions go back and forth for the last 3 years with no new information being presented. There have even been ideas floated such as eliminating all AQ's and having all at large teams.

We could have avoided all of this discussion and at times rancor if the NCAA AQ selection committee had simply done its job and objectively considered the merits of applicants for auto bid status and revoked the status of of conferences that were not achieving.


Logical and reasonable. We'll have to agree to disagree though.
You are correct though, my opinion is just that - an opinion. However, with the expansion of the playoffs to 20 in 2010, it appears the NCAA may be leaning towards my side of the fence. xpeacex

[danefan]

Maybe it shouldn't matter, but, it does, jsut like handing out bids does and giving away home seed does. :(

The deal is, in the 90s, Lehigh and a number of others were known for winning playoff games. So was the MEAC. That wasn't that long ago.


Does it matter anymore though? the NEC and Big South have almost zero playoff history (CCU at-large and 1st round loss in 2006). Both have been awarded AQ's.

Remember, we're not talking about an upheaval of the playoff system anymore. That already happened for 2010. A PFL AQ is nothing more than a slight adjustment.

[bluehenbillk]

To my dismay, I just saw this thread & read through a bunch of it.

This is exactly why there is a BCS in 1-A(FBS), because once you open up a playoff system it's only a matter of time until the MAC & the Sun Belt want in too.

I appreciate PFL fans wanting a shot & if I was a fan or alum of one of those schools I'd want one too. Once the NEC & Big South got let in I stated the playoffs would expand to 24 & I'm not prepared to back off that statement.

Unfortunately we're following the March Madness school of thought & we're pushing the NC game to the oblivion of January as the whole college football world pushes its focus to Pasadena, Glendale, Miami or New Orleans.

I'd rather see a system that rewards success and penalizes failure. Let's face it, you have existing leagues, let's name names - MEAC, Patriot & OVC that already have auto-bids and are one & done over and over again, as already pointed out in this thread so I'll spare the history lessons. Now we're adding the NEC, Big South & maybe the PFL. Why don't we yank an autobid from a conference that loses "x" amount of years in a row.

The problem as you expand the playoffs is it dilutes the regular season. 7-4 (or worse) isn't a playoff worthy record IMO.

[89Hen]

In fact the AQ conferences are selected in June of every year.

You are correct in that I have consistently stated that Conference AQ's should be revoked for underachieving conferences. I have long advocated that AQ status is not an inherited right forever. The NCAA rules have stated that the Committee decides the auto bid conferences in June of every year. In theory the NCAA committee charged with this responibility is supposed to weigh the relative merits of each conference and decide who should be eligible. In fact this Committee in June of every year refuses to do this and simply rubber stamps the status quo.
xnodx xnodx xrulesx xnodx xnodx

The problem in a nutshell with regards to expansion.

[Big Al]

I know it's fashionable to pick on the MEAC but remember last year they put a scare into Appalachian State in the first round. I don't think it's out of line to say they would have done better against a different team.

Also, with the expasion to 20 teams, the first week becomes, in effect, a play-in week. I think this will really start to sort out the wheat from the chaff. If SC State had to play Maine or the OVC champ in the first round last year, I bet they would have advanced to the second round. I can see that scenario happening a 20 team format.

Finally, I don't see any reason why a bad conference shouldn't have a spot in the playoffs. It's not like they're getting into the championship game, it's simply a shot at the hardware, that's all.

[blukeys]

Unfortunately we're following the March Madness school of thought & we're pushing the NC game to the oblivion of January as the whole college football world pushes its focus to Pasadena, Glendale, Miami or New Orleans.I'd rather see a system that rewards success and penalizes failure. Let's face it, you have existing leagues, let's name names - MEAC, Patriot & OVC that already have auto-bids and are one & done over and over again, as already pointed out in this thread so I'll spare the history lessons. Now we're adding the NEC, Big South & maybe the PFL. Why don't we yank an autobid from a conference that loses "x" amount of years in a row.

The problem as you expand the playoffs is it dilutes the regular season. 7-4 (or worse) isn't a playoff worthy record IMO.


billk, it is actually worse than you state. Once you have established that any conference can get an AQ with 6 teams and asking nicely with no demonstrable proof of competitive ability the door is wide open and teams will adjust their behavior accordingly. The CAA could easily split into 2 conferences and their would be no reason to deny their request. (I know there would be a waiting period but that could be worked out in the interim.) The CAA could add 4 teams and by 2013 could have enough teams for 3 auto bids.

Combining the MEAC and Southern Conferences schools could produce 3 conferences and 3 AQ's for these conferences instead of 2. This is Ditto for the Missouri Valley and Ohio Valley. Without having to shuffle teams outside of the conference footprints and geographic proximity we can get to 15 AQ's easily.


Once this fire sale gets started conferences will look to their teams best interest and I can see 17 conferences by 2013. Once we reach 17 AQ's and the requisite number of at large teams, the playoffs will have to go another week and then......xeekx.

[phoenix3]

blukeys

You are quite a Jerk,you have no idea what the PFL is all about.First and foremost Education is front and center of there existence. Football is not.
Judging by your post you are not too bright a person,--that shot at SD QB ,Johnson and the PFL are the ramblings of a spoiled brat Child. maybe about 8 years old ??

Well then get educated and let the teams that excell in football play in the playoffs. Let the PFL be like the Ivey League. Don't waste valuable playoff spots!

And it's their not there Mr. Education.

[PantherRob82]

Does it matter anymore though? the NEC and Big South have almost zero playoff history (CCU at-large and 1st round loss in 2006). Both have been awarded AQ's.

Remember, we're not talking about an upheaval of the playoff system anymore. That already happened for 2010. A PFL AQ is nothing more than a slight adjustment.

A PFL AQ is a joke. I would like to see a PFL team compete with a top 25 team before this is even discussed.

[blukeys]

A PFL AQ is a joke. I would like to see a PFL team compete with a top 25 team before this is even discussed.

Ain't gonna happen. Don't you remember, according to one PFL poster, the PFL is being denied an AQ because top 25 teams are afraid to meet the PFL in the playoffs for fear of getting beat. Denying an AQ is just one more way to keep the good guys down.

[PantherRob82]

We were real afraid of Drake the last few times we played. xlolx

[PantherRob82]

I know we tried Dayton, but they only do home and homes....I wish we'd do it. :)

[gophoenix]

Does it matter anymore though? the NEC and Big South have almost zero playoff history (CCU at-large and 1st round loss in 2006). Both have been awarded AQ's.

Remember, we're not talking about an upheaval of the playoff system anymore. That already happened for 2010. A PFL AQ is nothing more than a slight adjustment.

What it does is reward schools for not fitting into the system. You notice that the Big South was given the bid after they solidified and Charleston Southern started granting scholarships.

The NEC was awarded the same when they, as a conference, agreed to give scholarships. They don't have to, but do.

The Pioneer is nothing more than a conference of schools who didn't want to fit in the system or division until the NEC volunteered to become like the other conferences and the MAAC folded. They are left by themselves now, and don't like their situation. So instead of working to become one of us, they want us to accept them for who they are, while they opt out of playing like the rest of us do.

[89Hen]

They are left by themselves now, and don't like their situation. So instead of working to become one of us, they want us to accept them for who they are, while they opt out of playing like the rest of us do.
Agreed, but FWIW, it was the NCAA that forced the PFL teams into I-AA. In a way the NCAA owes it to them to help them improve. They should just allow schools to play DIII football and keep their other sports in DI.

[Seahawks Fan]

Agreed, but FWIW, it was the NCAA that forced the PFL teams into I-AA. In a way the NCAA owes it to them to help them improve. They should just allow schools to play DIII football and keep their other sports in DI.


Amen. xbowx

[401ks]

Well, let's all go back behind the barn with our rulers and see who the REAL man is! xrolleyesx

Bumpersticker:


"My athlete-son can kick your honor-student's ass!"

FBS BCS school "fans" look down their noses at non-BCS FBS school teams.

Non-BCS FBS school "fans" look down their noses at FCS school teams.

Full-scholarship FCS school "fans" look down their noses at limited-scholarship and non-scholarship FCS school teams.

xblahblahx

The name of this board is: "ANY GIVEN SATURDAY"

If I want to read SMACK about FCS teams, I have two choices:

1.) Go to any FBS team fan board and read about how ALL FCS teams are really Division II teams, and that they don't deserve to be called Division I.

2.) Go to the "FCS Smack" forum here on AGS.

[89Hen]

The name of this board is: "ANY GIVEN SATURDAY"
Butler: Albion, Franklin, Hanover
Campbell: Methodist, Birmingham-Southern, Old Dominion
Davidson: Elon, Lenoir-Rhyne
Dayton: Urbana, Robert Morris, Duquesne
Drake: Grand View, South Dakota, Missouri S&T
Jacksonville: Webber, Samford, Old Dominion
Marist: Sacred Heart, Bucknell, Georgetown
Morehead State: Southern Virginia, St Francis, NC Central
San Diego: Azusa Pacific, Northern Colorado, Southern Utah
Valparaiso: St Josephs, Concordia, Carthage

Pick out the three best opponents of those.

Davidson vs Elon (56-0 Elon)
Drake vs South Dakota
Jacksoville vs Samford

It's can't be Any Given Saturday if you don't play anyone.

HORSE <-- CART

[401ks]

"Here is your ruler Mr. Hen."

[PantherRob82]

I would bet Old Dominion beats both PFL opponents.

[blukeys]

Agreed, but FWIW, it was the NCAA that forced the PFL teams into I-AA. In a way the NCAA owes it to them to help them improve. They should just allow schools to play DIII football and keep their other sports in DI.

Bingo!!! Quite a few D III NC's were won by some of the current PFL crew and they did a great job against competition that were playing by the same rules.

They were penalized by the NCAA for having D-1 basketball programs.