Save Villanova Basketball, Go to Football Games

[Hoyadestroya85]

Here's my take on how to save Villanova's basketball program (http://novafacts.blogspot.com/2009/08/soapbox-save-villanova-basketball-go-to.html).. Through Football!

[GannonFan]

I think you jumped the shark with the sentence...

The exodus of former Big East teams Boston College, Virginia Tech, and The U to the ACC severely crippled the Big East's football competitiveness and a conference that was once a juggernaut turned into the red headed stepchild of the Bowl Championship Series conferences.

I really don't think the Big East has ever been a "juggernaut", even with those teams.

As for the point, eh, there are plenty of schools that are basketball-only powers and I don't see why that will change in the future. Sure nova would be in a lesser of a stature basketball conference should a break up happen and they go with the non-football crowd, but the non-football crowd will be in a lesser basketball conference as well, and that's one of the reasons why a breakup hasn't been been decided yet. But nova basketball won't die a slow death if they are in half of a Big East - there was nova basketball even before a Big East as I seem to recall.

[DFW HOYA]

The Augustinians notwithstanding, the biggest impediment to a I-A program at Villanova is a stadium.

In the days when there were multiple stadium options in Philadelphia (JFK, Temple Stadium, Franklin Field, Shibe Park) a team could more easily ascend to major college status. Today, there is only one facility the Big East will sign off on (Lincoln Financial) and Temple controls Saturday game dates there for a long time. The BE does not want to play at Franklin Field and Penn holds the rights to when and where someone will play there.

Villanova has a budget but no stadium, Georgetown has not enough of either. But both of them have the Big East, and your point about the need to hang together is important. The league seems disinterested in approaching either school to upgrade, and former commissioner Mike Tranghese did not seem to want Georgetown in the conversation.

[Hoyadestroya85]

I think you jumped the shark with the sentence...


I really don't think the Big East has ever been a "juggernaut", even with those teams.

As for the point, eh, there are plenty of schools that are basketball-only powers and I don't see why that will change in the future. Sure nova would be in a lesser of a stature basketball conference should a break up happen and they go with the non-football crowd, but the non-football crowd will be in a lesser basketball conference as well, and that's one of the reasons why a breakup hasn't been been decided yet. But nova basketball won't die a slow death if they are in half of a Big East - there was nova basketball even before a Big East as I seem to recall.
Juggernaut may not be the best word, but those Miami teams in the Big East were some of the best ever.. Miami hasn't recovered since moving and neither has the Big East. It's also a matter of rivalries.. does Villanova want to cut off it's basketball rivalries with the Big East Football Schools?

Yes, but in recent years wouldn't you agree that the rich have gotten richer. When was the last time a school without an FBS football program won a national championship? UConn is my belief, but they were in the process of transitioning at the time.

[blukeys]

The Augustinians notwithstanding, the biggest impediment to a I-A program at Villanova is a stadium.

In the days when there were multiple stadium options in Philadelphia (JFK, Temple Stadium, Franklin Field, Shibe Park) a team could more easily ascend to major college status. Today, there is only one facility the Big East will sign off on (Lincoln Financial) and Temple controls Saturday game dates there for a long time. The BE does not want to play at Franklin Field and Penn holds the rights to when and where someone will play there.

Villanova has a budget but no stadium, Georgetown has not enough of either. But both of them have the Big East, and your point about the need to hang together is important. The league seems disinterested in approaching either school to upgrade, and former commissioner Mike Tranghese did not seem to want Georgetown in the conversation.

I disagree the biggest impediment to a I-A program is FILLING a stadium. (Of course this is the point of asking people to attend in a thread.) People forget that Vilanova did have a D-1 schedule and played in the Liberty bowl in the mid 1960's They never put fannies in the home stands.

[DFW HOYA]

I disagree the biggest impediment to a I-A program is FILLING a stadium.

The Wildcats could fill Villanova Stadium every week but at only 12,000 seats, that's not going to change the equation.

(Villanova played in the 1962 Liberty Bowl when it was in Philadelphia, and drew 17,407. However, it's not like Oregon State brought much of a road crowd.)

[blukeys]

The Wildcats could fill Villanova Stadium every week but at only 12,000 seats, that's not going to change the equation.

Sorry they have not done that when they were I-A in the past and they don't even come close today unless Delaware comes to town. You obviously have not followed Vilanova's football history. They did not drop football in the 70's because too many fans were coming. xrolleyesxxrolleyesx

[Hoyadestroya85]

my argument is possibly too veiled.. but the main sticking point is that we need butts in the seats.. if we sold out every game in a season and won a title, i think we'd move up.

[DFW HOYA]

I know about their attendance issues, but the point remains: whether it's 5,000 or 8,000 or 12,000 a game, this alone does not elevate Villanova into a I-A discussion. The Big East wants major stadiums and control over stadium dates, and neither Nova nor Georgetown can provide that.

[Hoyadestroya85]

those are two very big ifs.. but i think if we had a season like 97, we'd get more people to come to games

[blukeys]

I know about their attendance issues, but the point remains: whether it's 5,000 or 8,000 or 12,000 a game, this alone does not elevate Villanova into a I-A discussion. The Big East wants major stadiums and control over stadium dates, and neither Nova nor Georgetown can provide that.

I am well aware of all of that but let's be real. Who in their right mind builds a 30,000 seat stadium when thay can't and never have filled a 12,000 seat stadium? Attendance first stadium expansion second. For the record I wish Hoyadestoya well in his efforts.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Don't you think that the lack of basketball rivals on the schedule plays a part? No offense, but who (besides me and few others) are interested in seeing William and Mary if you play against them in one sport. Games against Rutgers, Syracuse and Pitt would put butts in the seats.

[blukeys]

Don't you think that the lack of basketball rivals on the schedule plays a part? No offense, but who (besides me and few others) are interested in seeing William and Mary if you play against them in one sport. Games against Rutgers, Syracuse and Pitt would put butts in the seats.

In the past you had Maryland. the service academies, etc. and it didn't happen and Nova dropped the sport. I wish you well but the investment in a new 30,000 plus stadium needs more of a guarantee than build it and they will come.

For years, Temple brought Pitt, Miami, Boston College, Syracuse etc to Philly and it got them kicked out of the big East for lack of attendance despite the fact that attendance was Ok when Penn State came to town. This was due to all of the Penn State fans who took over the Temple Home venue. Playing Temple gave Penn State anothe home game even if it was in Philly. Temple had state funds to make their case and they still are struggling and are a money loser in football.

Again I wish you well but you have no historic basis to make the claim that Nova is a football money maker. I would love to have all the money Temple and Nova lose on football in any one year.

[Dane96]

Miami did win two National Titles during its 14 Seasons in the Big East conference, the first coming in their first BE season...so you cant gauge the league by that title. They did go to 9 Bowl Games...and won 6 of them, two of them being garbage Bowls, however they got smoked in two of the losses...bad. They won 7 Big East titles, however, the Big East arguably was WEAKER then because of a massive lack of depth.

Back then, it was Miami and VaTech...and a few teams were playing playing just slightly over .500....and the rest were all subpar. The records and strength of Miami were meh. There is so much more depth as evinced in the Bowl games and OOC in the Big East now...and it will arguably become a stronger league has schools like Cincinatti, S. Florida and UConn mature.

[Bull Fan]

Juggernaut may not be the best word, but those Miami teams in the Big East were some of the best ever.. Miami hasn't recovered since moving and neither has the Big East. It's also a matter of rivalries.. does Villanova want to cut off it's basketball rivalries with the Big East Football Schools?

Yes, but in recent years wouldn't you agree that the rich have gotten richer. When was the last time a school without an FBS football program won a national championship? UConn is my belief, but they were in the process of transitioning at the time.

Beg to disagree. Miami was strongest before their Big East days, it just seemed they fell off a bit once they were affiliated. They still pumped out NFL players, but just weren't as strong as the Jimmy Johnson days. I think many factors had to do with that, and not solely their conference affiliation.

[89Hen]

The Augustinians notwithstanding, the biggest impediment to a I-A program at Villanova is a stadium.
xeyebrowx I'd say the biggest impediment is...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1367&dat=19810416&id=q9oVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TRMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6950,4038094

[bluehenbillk]

I'd argue the biggest problem with Villanova even being successful at the FCS level versus the FBS level is they need to SELL tickets.

It's a well-known fact that outside of the UD game every other year, there are complimentary and reduced-price ticket offers floating all over the Delaware County area. Keep in mind the few students that goto games & it adds up to very little revenue VU has coming in on football, rivaling the low #'s that some of the CAA North schools bring in.

It's not as easy as "build it & they will come". Temple has proved that.

[Ivytalk]

Doubling Nova's FB season ticket base from 12 to 24 won't cut it!:p

[93henfan]

xeyebrowx I'd say the biggest impediment is...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1367&dat=19810416&id=q9oVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TRMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6950,4038094

Wilmington Morning Star! Holy retro, Batman. Do they have the Phila Bulletin too?

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Juggernaut may not be the best word, but those Miami teams in the Big East were some of the best ever.. Miami hasn't recovered since moving and neither has the Big East. It's also a matter of rivalries.. does Villanova want to cut off it's basketball rivalries with the Big East Football Schools?

Yes, but in recent years wouldn't you agree that the rich have gotten richer. When was the last time a school without an FBS football program won a national championship? UConn is my belief, but they were in the process of transitioning at the time.

The best Miami teams were before they were in the Big East, like the Jimmy Johnson days.

[DFW HOYA]

Miami made the same mistake Arkansas did when leaving the SWC to join the SEC--they're fighting in a larger weight class than what their sports were prepared for.

Recent Miami football attendance at Dolphins Stadium (46K) is good but not great for the ACC-9th of 12 schools. The U built its basketball arena much too small and it's the smallest facility in the conference (7,000). They averaged only 4,600 per game and sold out only once.

But back to Villanova--it is one of only two I-AA schools with a legitimate "in" to a BCS conference. The metro area is not going to overwhelm Villanova Stadium playing Towson or Northeastern but the thinking is that a steady diet of Syracuse, Pitt, WVU, etc. would draw people.

This strategy works in some NFL markets not in others. College teams in places like Seattle (U.Wash), Pittsburgh, Boston (BC), the SF Bay Area (Cal), Atlanta (GTech), and Washington DC(Maryland) hold their own against NFL competition, a little less so in Miami, Chicago (Northwestern), Dallas-Ft. Worth (TCU/SMU), Houston, Cincinnati, San Diego (SD State) and Nashville (Vanderbilt), and not much at all in New Orleans (Tulane), Buffalo, and, to date, Philadelphia. With the inability to get dates at Lincoln Financial, Villanova is not actively pursuing I-A because their present-day options are limited.

[Hoyadestroya85]

In the past you had Maryland. the service academies, etc. and it didn't happen and Nova dropped the sport. I wish you well but the investment in a new 30,000 plus stadium needs more of a guarantee than build it and they will come.

For years, Temple brought Pitt, Miami, Boston College, Syracuse etc to Philly and it got them kicked out of the big East for lack of attendance despite the fact that attendance was Ok when Penn State came to town. This was due to all of the Penn State fans who took over the Temple Home venue. Playing Temple gave Penn State anothe home game even if it was in Philly. Temple had state funds to make their case and they still are struggling and are a money loser in football.

Again I wish you well but you have no historic basis to make the claim that Nova is a football money maker. I would love to have all the money Temple and Nova lose on football in any one year.

Temple didn't belong in the Big East.. they had rivalries with none of those teams. Villanova is a high profile team because of its conference. We always bring a good contingent of fans to Penn.. why wouldn't those fans go to see Pitt or even Penn State? And Building a new stadium isn't the answer, Radnor would never allow it.. The answer is using an existing stadium until they can strong arm Radnor into building an on campus stadium

[Dane96]

Miami has always had piss-poor attendence. They only get good attendence for the Big Two (Florida and FSU) and when they play a big-time OOC rival, like Notre Dame. The Arena is the perfect size for the attendence they get from students...and as you point out they barely get fannies in the stands (this year was a big boost). Remember, most kids FROM FLORIDA go to one of the in-state schools if staying in State. The kids who go to the U are primarily out-of-state kids.

[GannonFan]

Temple didn't belong in the Big East.. they had rivalries with none of those teams. Villanova is a high profile team because of its conference. We always bring a good contingent of fans to Penn.. why wouldn't those fans go to see Pitt or even Penn State? And Building a new stadium isn't the answer, Radnor would never allow it.. The answer is using an existing stadium until they can strong arm Radnor into building an on campus stadium

Radnor is never going to allow a big enough stadium to be built in their township - never. It's not just the stadium, but all the parking and cars that go along with it. Heck, if you get more than 8k people at the current stadium Lancaster Ave just slows to a standstill. You need at least a 30k seat stadium, and there's no way that Radnor is ever going to allow that to be built, meaning that nova is looking at an off-campus stadium.

Not that off-campus is the end of the world, as at least for basketball they have proven that people will go to an off-campus building. But, comparing nova basketball to football is not a genuine comparison. nova basketball can draw like they do because Philly is a college b-ball town - always has been. The Big 5 is the reason nova draws for big games because there is a tradition stretching back 50 years in the city. It's not just nova fans going to the games, it's b-ball fans. But the city has no tradition of college football, and if people follow any big time college sports team, it's Penn St. Casual Penn St fans aren't going to say "hey, nova's playing Syracuse this Saturday, let's go there for the game instead of going to State College or watching Penn St on tv". Heck, the last time nova played Penn at Franklin Field, only 14k people showed up. And when it was at nova only 8k people showed up (and games at nova are almost free to go to with the preponderance of comp tickets out there).

And the other part of the off-campus stadium is where one gets built and who's going to pay for it. nova will never be able to play at Lincoln Financial, not because of Temple, but because of the Eagles. The Eagles don't even want Temple playing there as it hurts the field to have so many games, but the Eagles had to allow a city school to play there (at a ridiculously high cost to Temple, btw) because it was built with so much money from the city. But nova ain't a city school and there's no way they'll get access to the stadium for a full slate of games. And there's not just a bunch of great places anywhere in Delaware County for nova to build a stadium, and like Radnor, they'll run into problems with trying to find a township willing to plop a major college football stadium into their area. And again, who will pay for it? nova's not a state school so they can really forget about state funding, so all of it will have to come from nova and donors. Assuming they even have a place to build.

Just too many obstacles and too many unknowns. As others have said, nova played big time football before and no one showed up.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Radnor is never going to allow a big enough stadium to be built in their township - never. It's not just the stadium, but all the parking and cars that go along with it. Heck, if you get more than 8k people at the current stadium Lancaster Ave just slows to a standstill. You need at least a 30k seat stadium, and there's no way that Radnor is ever going to allow that to be built, meaning that nova is looking at an off-campus stadium.

Not that off-campus is the end of the world, as at least for basketball they have proven that people will go to an off-campus building. But, comparing nova basketball to football is not a genuine comparison. nova basketball can draw like they do because Philly is a college b-ball town - always has been. The Big 5 is the reason nova draws for big games because there is a tradition stretching back 50 years in the city. It's not just nova fans going to the games, it's b-ball fans. But the city has no tradition of college football, and if people follow any big time college sports team, it's Penn St. Casual Penn St fans aren't going to say "hey, nova's playing Syracuse this Saturday, let's go there for the game instead of going to State College or watching Penn St on tv". Heck, the last time nova played Penn at Franklin Field, only 14k people showed up. And when it was at nova only 8k people showed up (and games at nova are almost free to go to with the preponderance of comp tickets out there).

And the other part of the off-campus stadium is where one gets built and who's going to pay for it. nova will never be able to play at Lincoln Financial, not because of Temple, but because of the Eagles. The Eagles don't even want Temple playing there as it hurts the field to have so many games, but the Eagles had to allow a city school to play there (at a ridiculously high cost to Temple, btw) because it was built with so much money from the city. But nova ain't a city school and there's no way they'll get access to the stadium for a full slate of games. And there's not just a bunch of great places anywhere in Delaware County for nova to build a stadium, and like Radnor, they'll run into problems with trying to find a township willing to plop a major college football stadium into their area. And again, who will pay for it? nova's not a state school so they can really forget about state funding, so all of it will have to come from nova and donors. Assuming they even have a place to build.

Just too many obstacles and too many unknowns. As others have said, nova played big time football before and no one showed up.

Villanova's attendance frequently gets underreported (i don't know why).. for example, the playoff game had a listed attendance of 4400.. and there was no way that there was under 8,000 people at that game it may have been closer to 10,000. The last time Penn played Villanova, i remember it being pretty full as well and in '06 when we had a night game at franklin field i'm guessing the attendance was over 20 grand.. nearly half of those on the Nova side. Building a stadium is the major hurdle. I'd like to see the kind of attendance we'd have for football if they opened up the main lot for tailgating rather than charging an arm and a leg for those stupid permits. I've personally talked to people who would drive down to Villanova football games if they were allowed to tailgate.. and i don't blame them. We Have ZERO game day atmosphere, ZERO promotion and a total lack of interest by the athletic department to even keep football afloat. I've also heard from multiple sources that Jay Wright wants a BCS football program.. and to keep that man happy, I'd do anything if I was Vince NiCastro. Also, college football was nowhere NEAR the draw that it was back then.. it was a big deal.. but five+ games weren't shown on national tv every saturday. There are people who would show up at a game just because they knew it was going to be on ESPN, thats the way the casual basketball fans act at Villanova when the team is on national tv they then steal the tickets from the people who follow the team religiously. And if Villanova were in the Big East.. there would be a couple of those a year..

[GannonFan]

Villanova's attendance frequently gets underreported (i don't know why).. for example, the playoff game had a listed attendance of 4400.. and there was no way that there was under 8,000 people at that game it may have been closer to 10,000. The last time Penn played Villanova, i remember it being pretty full as well and in '06 when we had a night game at franklin field i'm guessing the attendance was over 20 grand.. nearly half of those on the Nova side. Building a stadium is the major hurdle. I'd like to see the kind of attendance we'd have for football if they opened up the main lot for tailgating rather than charging an arm and a leg for those stupid permits. I've personally talked to people who would drive down to Villanova football games if they were allowed to tailgate.. and i don't blame them. We Have ZERO game day atmosphere, ZERO promotion and a total lack of interest by the athletic department to even keep football afloat. I've also heard from multiple sources that Jay Wright wants a BCS football program.. and to keep that man happy, I'd do anything if I was Vince NiCastro. Also, college football was nowhere NEAR the draw that it was back then.. it was a big deal.. but five+ games weren't shown on national tv every saturday. There are people who would show up at a game just because they knew it was going to be on ESPN, thats the way the casual basketball fans act at Villanova when the team is on national tv they then steal the tickets from the people who follow the team religiously. And if Villanova were in the Big East.. there would be a couple of those a year..

I think nova underreports the attendance because they go by the paid number. Like others have said, for any nova football game there are literally thousands of comp vouchers floating around Delaware County that allow people to get free tickets to the game. My wife teaches in the Tredyffrin-Easttown school district and for every nova home game there are hundreds of comp vouchers given to her elementary school. And this has been going on for years. nova's been begging people to go for free and they just don't in enough numbers.

As for the tailgating, it is an odd thing. Tailgating in the main lots are allowed when Delaware plays at nova - heck, last time they even organized the Delaware tailgating section - they had signs directing Delaware fans and had a whole area cordoned off. Makes you wonder if you had a weekly presence of fans as similarly devoted to tailgating if it would be allowed every week and not just for the Delaware game?

[LacesOut]

Tailgating in the main lots are allowed when Delaware plays at nova - heck, last time they even organized the Delaware tailgating section - they had signs directing Delaware fans and had a whole area cordoned off.

They had what?????

OMG that is awesome! For UD fans, I mean.

(OP, sorry for going off topic)

[GannonFan]

They had what?????

OMG that is awesome! For UD fans, I mean.

Strength in numbers - you get 5k people there, most of them wanting to tailgate, and things happen. xthumbsupx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

They sure don't do that for other games! If we hadn't made arrangements beforehand with Nova via UNH and the Friends OF UNH Football organization for official recognition and placement in this little fenced in area, our only tailgating option would have been in that $50/car parking lot near the stadium. We actuaally had to get people at UNH to call people at Nova to allow us to tailgate in this one little area of that huge parking lot. There was a Special Olympics event that day and the Radnor cops were out in force to ensure no tailgating occurred outside that white picket fence. And even then the Nova people were paranoid that we were going to use that area to entertain very UNH person in the vicinity. xoopsx xrotatehx

After reading the draconian tailgating policies on their website, I was amazed that the Delaware fans were able to openly tailgate. But I did hear stories of people getting hassled until the sheer volume of Hen's fans was too much for the Radnor Police Dept. That plus a little looking the other way because you guys buy so many tickets! Money talks!! xlolx xrolleyesx