Report Says Big Papi, Manny On 2003 Failed Test List

[UNHWildCats]

This saddens me so much.




Manny Ramirez (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/r/manny_ramirez/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and David Ortiz, the sluggers who propelled the Boston Red Sox (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/bostonredsox/index.html?inline=nyt-org) to end an 86-year World Series championship drought and to capture another title three years later, were among the roughly 100 Major League Baseball players to test positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, according to lawyers with knowledge of the results.

Some of baseball’s most cherished storylines of the past decade have been tainted by performance-enhancing drugs, including the accomplishments of record-setting home run hitters and dominating pitchers. Now, players with Boston’s championship teams of 2004 and 2007 have also been linked to doping.

Baseball first tested for steroids in 2003, and the results from that season were supposed to remain anonymous. But for reasons that have never been made clear, the results were never destroyed and the first batch of positives has come to be known among fans and people in baseball as “the list.” The information was later seized by federal agents investigating the distribution of performance-enhancing drugs to professional athletes, and the test results remain the subject of litigation between the baseball players union and the government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31doping.html?_r=1&ref=sports&pagewanted=print

[MaroonMafia]

It's time for the whole list to be made public. It should have never been leaked, but it's unfair to slowly release names at this point. It sucks that titles are tarnished, but who's to say they weren't facing pitchers on the juice as well. The whole league was plagued with it; it's time to focus on who's clean now. (Please let Pujols be clean!!!)

[UNHWildCats]

It's time for the whole list to be made public. It should have never been leaked, but it's unfair to slowly release names at this point. It sucks that titles are tarnished, but who's to say they weren't facing pitchers on the juice as well. The whole league was plagued with it; it's time to focus on who's clean now. (Please let Pujols be clean!!!)
atleast one player on everyteam was juicing, so I dont care much for this tarnished titles thing.... Its like cycling... is anything really tarnished if their all doing it?

[93henfan]

Boston teams. They get by with a little help from their friends. ;)

http://www.flushingpheasantvideo.com/img/videocamera.jpghttp://www.mediray.com/Images/Products/Syringe_2.jpg

[bluehenbillk]

It may sadden you, but it sure as heck shouldn't surprise you. If you didn't think Bib Papi did it at one time you need your head examined.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

This has been assumed for years...the stats never made sense based on the skills of Ortiz.

As for tarnished titles, this is the title that is the biggest blow. In this instance, the 2 players made up like 75% of the production for that team.

[UNHWildCats]

MLB teams. They get by with a little help from their friends. ;)

http://www.mediray.com/Images/Products/Syringe_2.jpg
fify

[UMass922]

I wonder if Papi will volunteer for a one-year ban, since that's what he suggested a few months back for players caught juicing.

[bodoyle]

I'm with blue. If I found out Robin Ventura and Frank Thomas juiced I wouldn't be shocked. This isn't surprising at all.

[FargoBison]

I guess this does make the Twins look better for letting him walk, a lot of people were pretty critical of team when Ortiz was in Boston tearing the cover off the ball.

[bodoyle]

I guess this does make the Twins look better for letting him walk, a lot of people were pretty critical of team when Ortiz was in Boston tearing the cover off the ball.

Ortiz is not a Minn type player. He doesn't play small ball at all. Torii Hunter didn't either and he's gone. They have their gameplan and stick to it, and it works.

[UMass922]

I wonder if the fans at Fenway are going to chant "you did steroids" when Ortiz comes to bat?

[gmoney55]

Boston Championships this decade
2001 Patriots*
2003 Patriots*
2004 Red Sox*
2004 Patriots*
2007 Red Sox*
2008 Celtics????

[FargoBison]

Ortiz is not a Minn type player. He doesn't play small ball at all. Torii Hunter didn't either and he's gone. They have their gameplan and stick to it, and it works.

Hunter was gone because of the contract he got, he wanted long term and the Twins weren't willing to give him that kind of deal. Hunter was the prototypical Twins player, sadly the team is just cheap.

The Twins don't really play small ball like they used to, just look at the lineup now. Mauer, Morneau, Crede, Cuddyer, and Kubel are the core, they all have about 15+ home runs and none of them are really all that quick.

As for Ortiz, at that point he was always hurt, and the Twins had a loaded farm system. He was in the way of younger cheaper talent.

[GannonFan]

I am shocked, absolutely shocked, to hear that Manny and Big Papi were juicing. Unbelievable!!!!! xrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesx

But hey, you figure their 2004 title wasn't that tainted, I mean, they came back to win the AL pennant against the Yankees, and the Yanks had at least 3 guys juicing between Clemens, Sheffield, and ARod. xlolxxlolxxlolx

[Gil Dobie]

Boston Championships this decade
2001 Patriots*
2003 Patriots*
2004 Red Sox*
2004 Patriots*
2007 Red Sox*
2008 Celtics????

Boston, City of Asterisks*

[UNCBears2010]

Here's a new slogan for Boston sports teams: Cheat to Win!

[aust42]

It's a shame that "the list" is being leaked little by little keeping Steroids constantly in the headlines and sports talk radio continuing to tarnish MLB. But as I've said before people (baseball purists) are naive if they think MLB players just started using steroids in the late 90's when the precious homerun records were being broken. I agree with most of the posters on titles not being "tainted". It was Cheaters vs Cheaters, whether it was steroids, spit balls, corked bats, etc.

[UNHWildCats]

I am shocked, absolutely shocked, to hear that Manny and Big Papi were juicing. Unbelievable!!!!! xrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesx

But hey, you figure their 2004 title wasn't that tainted, I mean, they came back to win the AL pennant against the Yankees, and the Yanks had at least 3 guys juicing between Clemens, Sheffield, and ARod. xlolxxlolxxlolx
anything before St Louis in 2006 is very questionable about being totally clean... even St Louis and beyond maybe questionable, though with testing in place guilty parties would have been suspended. No one... and I mean NO ONE should be simply calling into question the Red Sox championships.

And if they do, only 2004 would be tainted since testing was in place during 2007.

[UNHWildCats]

It's a shame that "the list" is being leaked little by little keeping Steroids constantly in the headlines and sports talk radio continuing to tarnish MLB. But as I've said before people (baseball purists) are naive if they think MLB players just started using steroids in the late 90's when the precious homerun records were being broken. I agree with most of the posters on titles not being "tainted". It was Cheaters vs Cheaters, whether it was steroids, spit balls, corked bats, etc.

Holy &$^% I gave you positive reputation xrotatehx

[Appinator]

I think it is horrendous that these names are being slowly trickled out like this. The report has nothing on the specifics of what they tested positive for. While I am not a steroid apologist in the least, if he tested positive for something like unperscribed medications, wouldn't that change the whole situation? There is a distinct possibility that at the time, what they tested positive for was totally legal too. It's like these guys lives are being held hostage by the powers that be.

I would be very surprised if there is not some serious legal ramifications for the media sources who have "obtained" this information down the line. These are private medical records of individuals, and in the circumstances of when the tests were given, should never be released. Only after MLB's current substance abuse policy went into effect, should any subsequent failed test be made public.

By the way, I am a huge Rangers fan, so I have already had my team taken to the woodshed for all of these things. Gonzalez, Pudge, Palmero, they all might have been on juice during the late 90's. But for that time, there really is no legal way for us to know exactly who used what(excluding Palmero). It just ruins stories like Nelson Cruz's this year who has came out of no where to "find his swing" after 8 years in the minors. It just doesn't seem likely after all of the stories like Brady Anderson who "found his swing" too. What about Ibanez? He went into a roid rage when ever anyone even mentioned it to him, just when he is having a career year for his new team after a new contract. It's easy for us to logically convict someone, even when still innocent.

I really just wish it would all go away, but it won't. I just want to go back to enjoying the game of baseball.

[aust42]

Holy &$^% I gave you positive reputation xrotatehx

xpeacex

[bodoyle]

Hunter was gone because of the contract he got, he wanted long term and the Twins weren't willing to give him that kind of deal. Hunter was the prototypical Twins player, sadly the team is just cheap.

The Twins don't really play small ball like they used to, just look at the lineup now. Mauer, Morneau, Crede, Cuddyer, and Kubel are the core, they all have about 15+ home runs and none of them are really all that quick.

As for Ortiz, at that point he was always hurt, and the Twins had a loaded farm system. He was in the way of younger cheaper talent.

Look at the number of HRs they hit. I just meant that as small ball, not small ball like what the Sox did in '05.

[Gil Dobie]

Here's a new slogan for Boston sports teams: Cheat to Win!

Boston Roid Sox

[OSBF]

It's a shame that "the list" is being leaked little by little keeping Steroids constantly in the headlines and sports talk radio continuing to tarnish MLB. But as I've said before people (baseball purists) are naive if they think MLB players just started using steroids in the late 90's when the precious homerun records were being broken. I agree with most of the posters on titles not being "tainted". It was Cheaters vs Cheaters, whether it was steroids, spit balls, corked bats, etc.


I think there's a huge difference between "gamesmanship" such as scuffing a ball or loading up a bat and intentionally putting an illegal substance into your body for the purpose of gaining an edge. I don't even want to hear anyone say, but steroids weren't illegal.........BS, they are and were a controlled substance and were illegal to posesses in the US even if they weren't specifically banned by MLB, they were illegal, period.

I played college baseball, and in some high level summer leagues. Yep, it happens at all levels. I used an illegal bat or 2, scuffed a ball, and even once or twice went to the mound with a little something on my glove or cap. Right? Hell no. Illegal? You bet. But stuff like that is light years different from turning yourself into a science project.

I think the biggest impact PED's had on the game were not with the top line players, but with the fringe players. They would make a guy just good enough to stick, often at the expense of a guy that wasn't using. Bonds, Canseco, McGwire, they weren't keeping anybody out of the league, they were going to be there anyway.

I'm not sure anyone that hasn't played with/against someone all roided up can understand how great an impact they have. Average players become great, and great players become Gods. Your vision, reflexes, and bat speed go through the roof. Actual increases in raw strength are marginal for most users. But when you see the ball better and can attack it quicker, you become a better hitter.

[andy7171]

Chasing History!
The Boston Red Sox and the New York Yankees are chemical FRAUDS!

...prop to T for starting this himself.

[TheValleyRaider]

I think there's a huge difference between "gamesmanship" such as scuffing a ball or loading up a bat and intentionally putting an illegal substance into your body for the purpose of gaining an edge. I don't even want to hear anyone say, but steroids weren't illegal.........BS, they are and were a controlled substance and were illegal to posesses in the US even if they weren't specifically banned by MLB, they were illegal, period.

Why? xconfusedx

Rules are rules. You either cheated, or you didn't. Rules say you can't scuff the ball, or cork the bat, or what have you. Do it, and you get punished. That, to me, is a double-standard: condoning one form of cheating (sandpaper/vasoline) while condeming the other (steroids)

On Ortiz being busted (Manny doesn't need further comment), I can't say I'm surprised. Hopefully this will get a few Sawks fans off the high horse they've been foolishly riding, but I fully expect the standard treatment for A-Rod when the Yanks come to town. Just don't be surprised when Big Papi gets the same

Really, what needs to be done is find out who is leaking these names, and why this list is even still in existence. The players took the test with the expectation of privacy, regardless of what the results were. Now that names are/have been leaked, the players are only going to retreat further into a shell on this. To some extent, they've been double-crossed, and I wouldn't blame them for being pretty cheesed about it. Release 'em all and ignore the list's purported anonymity, or destroy the lists, and let no one else ever know xrulesx

[TheValleyRaider]

Chasing History!
The Boston Red Sox and the New York Yankees are chemical FRAUDS!

At least we managed to win a World Series :D

What's Brady Anderson up to these days anyway? :p

[ncbears]

I can't stand MLB just for these reasons.

[OSBF]

Why? xconfusedx

Rules are rules. You either cheated, or you didn't. Rules say you can't scuff the ball, or cork the bat, or what have you. Do it, and you get punished. That, to me, is a double-standard: condoning one form of cheating (sandpaper/vasoline) while condeming the other (steroids)



The advantage to be gained is much much greater with chemical enhancements. You can work in the weightroom and get stronger, but there's nothing you can do to improve your vision much above 20/20 or make your reflexes quicker, both VITAL aspects of the game and both gains from PED's.

Baseball is much like NASCAR when it comes to gamesmanship, a certain level of it is not only tollerated, but expected. The physical advantages are oft not as important as the mental advantage. Gaylord Perry, Don Sutton, Burt Hooten, guys like that understood and cultivated that part of the game. Was Perry's curveball REALLY any better than anyone else of the time, or did he just have the hitters convinced they couldn't hit him because he doctored the ball? Headgames.

[TheValleyRaider]

The advantage to be gained is much much greater with chemical enhancements. You can work in the weightroom and get stronger, but there's nothing you can do to improve your vision much above 20/20 or make your reflexes quicker, both VITAL aspects of the game and both gains from PED's.

I have to say, I have never heard that steroids, HGH, whathaveyou, improved reflexes and eyesight. In fact, I've only ever heard those mentioned as reasons why the effect of steroids isn't as great as we sometimes like to believe, simply because adding muscle and recovering from injury quickly won't improve your quickness or vision xpeacex

[OSBF]

I have to say, I have never heard that steroids, HGH, whathaveyou, improved reflexes and eyesight. In fact, I've only ever heard those mentioned as reasons why the effect of steroids isn't as great as we sometimes like to believe, simply because adding muscle and recovering from injury quickly won't improve your quickness or vision xpeacex



Steroids can improve reflexes. There is evidence that HGH can improve eyesight. Steroids can make a lousy player slightly less lousy, make a great player greater and make a superstar monstrous.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/10/21/SPGCP9D3ID1.DTL&type=printable


The moderate strength gains are the smallest part of the PED advantage.

[OSBF]

Another Link:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/thg-improved-reflexes-vision-313789.html



THG(tetrahydragestrinone), which is the steroid under the radar right now that was being supplied to many of USA's top athletes today(including Bonds), is a steroid blend consisting of a formula that produces insane results in 3 main areas: Eye sight, Reflexes, and Strength.

Note that strength is the last benefit listed.

[TheValleyRaider]

Another Link:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/anabolic-steroids/thg-improved-reflexes-vision-313789.html



Note that strength is the last benefit listed.

It is also interesting that several of the responses following the original post dismiss the conclusions given, in particular the one involving eyesight, though the reflex argument is interesting. To be fair though, a newspaper columnist who simply states "studies show that steroids improve reflexes and eyesight" and an online message board (with which I have no background) saying that something is the case without much in the way of citation is a bit of a stretch, IMHO

On a related note, what about something like LASIK surgery, or even contact lenses that improve eyesight up to and in some cases beyond normal 20/20 vision? Are those performance enhancers as well?

Just some things I'm pondering with this, anyway... xchinscratchx

[KiddBrewer]

atleast chipper jones wasn't juicin........i hope.......nah not chipperxconfusedx

[OSBF]

It is also interesting that several of the responses following the original post dismiss the conclusions given, in particular the one involving eyesight, though the reflex argument is interesting. To be fair though, a newspaper columnist who simply states "studies show that steroids improve reflexes and eyesight" and an online message board (with which I have no background) saying that something is the case without much in the way of citation is a bit of a stretch, IMHO

On a related note, what about something like LASIK surgery, or even contact lenses that improve eyesight up to and in some cases beyond normal 20/20 vision? Are those performance enhancers as well?

Just some things I'm pondering with this, anyway... xchinscratchx


are lasik or contacts illegal procedures/products?

[OSBF]

I did one cycle the summer between my Frosh and Soph year of college. Fastball went from 80-82 to 85-86. Biggest difference was that I could pull the ball again. Once I got out of HS the pitchers seemed to get better, and I lost the ability to pull the ball all together. One "cycle" and all of a sudden I was drilling the ball to left field just like the good old days. These weren't anything like the modern PED's, they were ordered out of a vetrinary supply catalog and were supposed to build muscle mass and defination in show cattle and horses. DUMB to take that crap, just plain stupidity. That was a long long time ago.

[kardplayer]

...prop to T for starting this himself.


I second the props!

[ISUMatt]

I'm with blue. If I found out Robin Ventura and Frank Thomas juiced I wouldn't be shocked. This isn't surprising at all.

Id be shocked if Thomas was juicing, he always said test us cuz Im clean, he was the only one that wanted to be tested...it would break my heart! The W Sox player I always thought was juicing was Aaron Rowand

[Hoyadestroya85]

I did one cycle the summer between my Frosh and Soph year of college. Fastball went from 80-82 to 85-86. Biggest difference was that I could pull the ball again. Once I got out of HS the pitchers seemed to get better, and I lost the ability to pull the ball all together. One "cycle" and all of a sudden I was drilling the ball to left field just like the good old days. These weren't anything like the modern PED's, they were ordered out of a vetrinary supply catalog and were supposed to build muscle mass and defination in show cattle and horses. DUMB to take that crap, just plain stupidity. That was a long long time ago.

I knew a kid Who was on Winstrol and Deca Durabolin who went from a weak hitting shortstop to a guy who could kill it to all parks. Giambi was that guy.

[phoenixphanatic21]

And this is why I can barely stand to watch baseball or follow baseball news anymore. The only reason I'm keeping up with it right now is because my Dodgers got the best record in baseball, partially thanks to Manny (and so help me God, if I have to defend his actions one more time or defend why Dodger fans continue to cheer him...xanim_chaix). I know it's been said before in this thread, but release the frickin list and let's get it over with. People juice now. It's a part of the game now, unfortunately. This isn't your father's baseball, with Ruth and Gehrig and Williams and Robinson. This is a new generation, a new era. The game has changed. I just want all this stupid stuff to go away. xbawlingx

[ISUMatt]

I HATE GIAMBI...He stole Frank Thomas' 2000 MVP

[andy7171]

At least we managed to win a World Series :D

What's Brady Anderson up to these days anyway? :p

That was creatine! And Raffy and Miguel had vitamin B shots!



xlolxxlolxxlolx

[Hoyadestroya85]

Yes.. and Barry Bonds was rubbing Flax seed oil on himself.