Big South v. SoCon 2009

[The Gadfly]

9/5

PC @ Fuman

9/12

Elon @ PC
Gardner-Webb @ WCU
Charleston Southern @ Wofford

9/19

UTC @ PC

9/26

PC @ The Citadel

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

PC will beat the mockingbirds. The Big South will lose all of the other games.

[OL FU]

9/5

PC @ Fuman

9/12

Elon @ PC
Gardner-Webb @ WCU
Charleston Southern @ Wofford

9/19

UTC @ PC

9/26

PC @ The Citadel

Too bad it almost all PC.

GW/WCU and PC/Chattanooga seemed to be the most winnable for the BSouth.

[ElonPride]

PC will beat the mockingbirds. The Big South will lose all of the other games.

Yeah a 66-12 loss and giving up nearly 700 yards of offense probably left PC a bad taste in their mouth. xsmiley_wix

[elcid83]

PC will beat the mockingbirds. The Big South will lose all of the other games.

GW @ WCU will be much closer than you think.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

[ASU]

9/5

PC @ Fuman

9/12

Elon @ PC
Gardner-Webb @ WCU
Charleston Southern @ Wofford

9/19

UTC @ PC

9/26

PC @ The Citadel
Presbyterian has 4 SoCon games.....what, are they trying to play a full SoCon schedule?

[The Cats]

GW @ WCU will be much closer than you think.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

Such wishful thinking. xnonox xnonono2x

[AppStFan76]

Presbyterian has 4 SoCon games.....what, are they trying to play a full SoCon schedule?

Smells like someone wants to move to the SoCon!!xrotatehx

They played 4 SoCon teams last year as well if i remember correctly.

[The Gadfly]

I think y'all maybe underestimating the Smurfettes. If they can continue to play like they have in the past then I can see a close one with Furman and Elon, with a win against THE pound puppies and UTC.

Wofford will have a field day with Chuck South and G-Dubb might take one from the University of the Cherokee.

[Mountaineer]

Too bad it almost all PC.

GW/WCU and PC/Chattanooga seemed to be the most winnable for the BSouth.

Agreed. I can see GW and PC winning both. xnodx

[SideLine Shooter]

Agreed. I can see GW and PC winning both. xnodx

That would be a total disgrace.

[phoenixphanatic21]

I think y'all maybe underestimating the Smurfettes. If they can continue to play like they have in the past then I can see a close one with Furman and Elon, with a win against THE pound puppies and UTC.

Wofford will have a field day with Chuck South and G-Dubb might take one from the University of the Cherokee.

I think a close one with PC would be anything where they stay within 44 points after last year. Also, it's hard to take a team seriously when they are referred to by some as the Smurfettes. Just saying.

[Redwyn]

Agreed. I can see GW and PC winning both. xnodx

Well, every conference has its bottom dwellers. PC is..well...let's just leave them as a "not yet developed" member of the BSouth. As for GW, there are so many versions of this team that have been touted. If its as good as their fans say it should be an easy victory.....Things are rarely as they're seen through rose colored glasses though xcoffeex

[DX Man]

I think the Big South will win 2 of those games.

BTW, I think PC would fit in well in the SoCon.

[g-webb1994]

PC = Calvinists predestined to lose.xlolx

Actually, PC is in a bit of turmoil with the coaching change. It might take them awhile to recover.

G-W will only go as far as their defense takes them this fall. If we stay healthy, we should contend for the Big South crown, an injury or two, and we have another typical Patton year of 6-5 or 5-6, which gets him a year or two extension.

[OL FU]

I think a close one with PC would be anything where they stay within 44 points after last year. Also, it's hard to take a team seriously when they are referred to by some as the Smurfettes. Just saying.

I am not sure of the score but I agree. New coaches can inspire and it is important but only goes so far. PC had a couple good games last year and if they pull one off against Furman or one of the other SoCon teams they might keep it close. But I think they are going to have a few years of recovery time from the Bentley fiasco.

[Hoseinexile07]

There's really no way to call what is going to happen this season, even though I'm not going to get my hopes up. There are just too many intangibles. I should remind everyone, though, that for the past two seasons we've made someone cry. Coastal was the first in 2007, when no one said we had a chance in hell to beat them at their place. Last season was even more of an upset when we snuck past #17 Liberty. I'm not saying that we're going to kick all of your asses, but rather that we've managed to sneak up on a team we shouldn't have beaten each of our seasons in I-AA. Who's it gonna be this year? xpeacex

[OL FU]

There's really no way to call what is going to happen this season, even though I'm not going to get my hopes up. There are just too many intangibles. I should remind everyone, though, that for the past two seasons we've made someone cry. Coastal was the first in 2007, when no one said we had a chance in hell to beat them at their place. Last season was even more of an upset when we snuck past #17 Liberty. I'm not saying that we're going to kick all of your asses, but rather that we've managed to sneak up on a team we shouldn't have beaten each of our seasons in I-AA. Who's it gonna be this year? xpeacex

Liberty or Coastalxthumbsupxxsmiley_wix

[jcmanson]

I can guarantee you it won't be Liberty.

[OL FU]

I can guarantee you it won't be Liberty.

OK maybe GW. xsmiley_wix


I probably should keep my mouth shut but I really don't see PC beating FU especially at FU. Stranger things have happened especially in first games.

[Hoseinexile07]

I can guarantee you it won't be Liberty.

That's what y'all said in 2008. Just sayin'.

[Saint3333]

I think the Big South will win 2 of those games.

BTW, I think PC would fit in well in the SoCon.

I would completely disagree on both accounts.

[jcmanson]

That's what y'all said in 2008. Just sayin'.

Haha, yes a Ho' talkin trash!

[Hoseinexile07]

I would completely disagree on both accounts.

We wouldn't fit well now, considering we suck. But if things get shifted around in the SoCon down the road, I could see us playing there. From my perspective, it'd be really cool to mix it up every year with schools that used to be our traditional rivals. After all, our history with Wofford goes back further than with Newberry.

[GSUhooligan]

What happened to Coastal's annual tour de SoCon?

[PaladinFan]

1. I don't think PC will stay within three touchdowns of Furman and the Paladins probably won't even open up the playbook. I'm not one for guaranteeing games, and there are still some question marks on Furman's defense, but I don't think the blue hose have a snowball's chance of stopping Furman from scoring.

2. PC probably plays a lot of the SoCon schools in part becuase their travel buget is somewhat limited and they are right in the middle of the SoCon footprint.

3. GWU v. WCU is intriguing. GW has had some preseason top 25 votes and WCU figures to not be anything more than mediocre this year. Would be a big win for either program.

[Saint3333]

We wouldn't fit well now, considering we suck. But if things get shifted around in the SoCon down the road, I could see us playing there. From my perspective, it'd be really cool to mix it up every year with schools that used to be our traditional rivals. After all, our history with Wofford goes back further than with Newberry.

If PC joins the SoCon, the conference might as well go back to the Carolinas Conference days of the 1960's. I hope ASU isn't around if that happens.

[Hoseinexile07]

1. I don't think PC will stay within three touchdowns of Furman and the Paladins probably won't even open up the playbook. I'm not one for guaranteeing games, and there are still some question marks on Furman's defense, but I don't think the blue hose have a snowball's chance of stopping Furman from scoring.

2. PC probably plays a lot of the SoCon schools in part becuase their travel buget is somewhat limited and they are right in the middle of the SoCon footprint.

3. GWU v. WCU is intriguing. GW has had some preseason top 25 votes and WCU figures to not be anything more than mediocre this year. Would be a big win for either program.


And we used to play SoCon schools all the time back in the day. We have long histories with Furman, the Citadel, Elon, Wofford, and Western Carolina.

[OL FU]

If PC joins the SoCon, the conference might as well go back to the Carolinas Conference days of the 1960's. I hope ASU isn't around if that happens.

We were less the Carolina's conference then than now. :p


Members at the start of the 60s

The Citadel, Davidson, Furman, George Washington, Richmond, Virginia Military Institute, Virginia Tech, Washington & Lee, West Virginia, William & Mary


Washington and Lee left early in the sixties. Va Tech middle and West Virgina late in the sixties. I don't think GW, W&M and Richmond left until the 70s.

Just keeping it real:)

[ButlerGSU]

If PC joins the SoCon, the conference might as well go back to the Carolinas Conference days of the 1960's. I hope ASU isn't around if that happens.

Not really against the Carolinas but the SoCon is becoming more of a private liberal arts college conference with each new member...App State and GSU simply don't fit in anymore. NOTE: This is not a knock against any of the private schools, just stating that ASU and GSU are both becoming larger state research schools.

[OL FU]

Not really against the Carolinas but the SoCon is becoming more of a private liberal arts college conference with each new member...App State and GSU simply don't fit in anymore. NOTE: This is not a knock against any of the private schools, just stating that ASU and GSU are both becoming larger state research schools.

I realize that the last few additions have been small privates. But to say you don't fit anymore means you didn't fit when you joined. No offense but it is a ridiculous statement unless you are willing to say you shouldn't have been in the conference at the start. you can take the position that you don't want to be in the Socon but the other position is just wrong.


SoCon when APP state joined.

The Citadel
Davidson
Furman
Richmond
Virginia Military Institute
William & Mary (They may have left before ASU joined)
East Carolina

There may have been more schools but looks to me like the majority were small private or private-esque schools.


It was a little different when GSU joined. I believe the conference was

Furman
Davidson
VMI
Citadel
Tenn Chatt
ASU
WCU
ETSU
Marshall

4 out of 9 small schools.

The SoCon has always been a mix of large and small.

PS, I didn't take it as a knock but your premise is not correct.

[DX Man]

I realize that the last few additions have been small privates. But to say you don't fit anymore means you didn't fit when you joined. No offense but it is a ridiculous statement unless you are willing to say you shouldn't have been in the conference at the start. you can take the position that you don't want to be in the Socon but the other position is just wrong.


SoCon when APP state joined.

The Citadel
Davidson
Furman
Richmond
Virginia Military Institute
William & Mary (They may have left before ASU joined)
East Carolina

There may have been more schools but looks to me like the majority were small private or private-esque schools.


It was a little different when GSU joined. I believe the conference was

Furman
Davidson
VMI
Citadel
Tenn Chatt
ASU
WCU
ETSU
Marshall

4 out of 9 small schools.

The SoCon has always been a mix of large and small.

PS, I didn't take it as a knock but your premise is not correct.


When ASU joined the SoCon it was a much smaller university than it is now. I think it is very healthy for a conference with several larger state universities to have one or two members be smaller private universities with above average academic reputations. That was the case when Georgia Southern joined the SoCon. That is not the case now. IMO GSU and ASU are too big for the SoCon. I think the SoCon is turning into a great conference for smaller universities (public & private) and for universities that don't play football. That is why I made the comment earlier in this thread that PC would make a good addition to the SoCon. I also think Gardner-Webb would fit in well also.

[DX Man]

If PC joins the SoCon, the conference might as well go back to the Carolinas Conference days of the 1960's. I hope ASU isn't around if that happens.

I think the SoCon is already headed that way. That's why I made the comment that PC would fit in well. I too hope ASU is not around when this happens.

[ButlerGSU]

I realize that the last few additions have been small privates. But to say you don't fit anymore means you didn't fit when you joined. No offense but it is a ridiculous statement unless you are willing to say you shouldn't have been in the conference at the start. you can take the position that you don't want to be in the Socon but the other position is just wrong.


SoCon when APP state joined.

The Citadel
Davidson
Furman
Richmond
Virginia Military Institute
William & Mary (They may have left before ASU joined)
East Carolina

There may have been more schools but looks to me like the majority were small private or private-esque schools.


It was a little different when GSU joined. I believe the conference was

Furman
Davidson
VMI
Citadel
Tenn Chatt
ASU
WCU
ETSU
Marshall

4 out of 9 small schools.

The SoCon has always been a mix of large and small.

PS, I didn't take it as a knock but your premise is not correct.

My premise is correct, in that Georgia Southern College had around 6,000 students when it joined the SoCon in 1991 (maybe even less). This fall we will be right at or just over 18,000 students and classified as a national research university by the Carnegie Foundation. Georgia Southern University is not the same school as Georgia Southern College was back in '91.

Similarly, App joined back in 1971 - a lot has changed since then.

[OL FU]

My premise is correct, in that Georgia Southern College had around 6,000 students when it joined the SoCon in 1991 (maybe even less). This fall we will be right at or just over 18,000 students and classified as a national research university by the Carnegie Foundation. Georgia Southern University is not the same school as Georgia Southern College was back in '91.

Similarly, App joined back in 1971 - a lot has changed since then.

I understand that GSU has grown a lot and I understand that ASU has changed. But I will still disagree about the premise. Sorry. The conference as I have said has historically been a mix of small and large. West Virginia left right before ASU joined. The size of the school matters but not nearly as much as it is willing to expend for athletics.

Anyway I understand some fans of GSU and ASU desire to leave and as i have said before I am not one of those that think schools have to be static. I have no problem with schools doing what they need to do for their own best interest. But it is more than simply size. It is the willingness and ability to expend the money needed to move. ASU has certainly spent some money on their football facilities and I think GSU has also, but when you look at the total athletic budgets I don't think they are that far ahead of the rest of the small schools in the SoCon. If size was the only qualifier I would say your premise was fine. It isn't.

[OL FU]

When ASU joined the SoCon it was a much smaller university than it is now. I think it is very healthy for a conference with several larger state universities to have one or two members be smaller private universities with above average academic reputations. That was the case when Georgia Southern joined the SoCon. That is not the case now. IMO GSU and ASU are too big for the SoCon. I think the SoCon is turning into a great conference for smaller universities (public & private) and for universities that don't play football. That is why I made the comment earlier in this thread that PC would make a good addition to the SoCon. I also think Gardner-Webb would fit in well also.

And PS, Furman, Wofford and Davidson have excellet academic reputations:p:D

[SU DOG]

My premise is correct, in that Georgia Southern College had around 6,000 students when it joined the SoCon in 1991 (maybe even less). This fall we will be right at or just over 18,000 students and classified as a national research university by the Carnegie Foundation. Georgia Southern University is not the same school as Georgia Southern College was back in '91.

Similarly, App joined back in 1971 - a lot has changed since then.

Actually there are ONLY 2 universities in the SoCon that are listed by the Carnegie Foundation as Doctoral/Research Universities. GSU is one and Samford University is the other. Just an interesting FYI without getting into size, and private vs public.

[ElonPride]

And PS, Furman, Wofford and Davidson have excellet academic reputations:p:D

Hey, you left out the #2 ranked southern university!!! xsmiley_wix

[zilla]

What happened to Coastal's annual tour de SoCon?

That came to a halt when the league chose Samford over us. xbawlingx

We do resume our series with Georgia Southern in 2010. We play Western in 2012-2013. I also believe we play Furman sometime in the near future.

BTW, if the SoCon ever wanted to expand again, or replace a school that departed the league (i.e., ASU or GSU going to FBS), I would hope that Coastal would get a very serious look.

[The Gadfly]

I could see Coastal fitting better in the CAA due to the amount of transplants from that area going to school there. Most alumni usually move (back) to that CAA footprint within 5 years of graduating anyway.

[phoenix3]

I think the mix between public & private and large vs. small is a good thing for the SoCon just as it is for the ACC. Wake's enrollment is about 2600 and private while Maryland's is over 40,000 and is public.

The SoCon, should it expand again, is due a large public.

[phoenix3]

What is Coastal's enrollment?

[The Gadfly]

Last I checked it was around 7K.

[SCPALADIN]

I think the mix between public & private and large vs. small is a good thing for the SoCon just as it is for the ACC. Wake's enrollment is about 2600 and private while Maryland's is over 40,000 and is public.

The SoCon, should it expand again, is due a large public.

Wake's underclass enrollment has been around 4500 students for as long as I can remember. If you count graduate students it lingers around 7000.

[Saint3333]

We were less the Carolina's conference then than now. :p


Members at the start of the 60s

The Citadel, Davidson, Furman, George Washington, Richmond, Virginia Military Institute, Virginia Tech, Washington & Lee, West Virginia, William & Mary


Washington and Lee left early in the sixties. Va Tech middle and West Virgina late in the sixties. I don't think GW, W&M and Richmond left until the 70s.

Just keeping it real:)

I'm not saying the SoCon was the Carolina's Conference then. I'm saying they are turning into the Carolina's Conference so I think you agree with my statement. In the 60's the CC was ASU, WCU, Elon, Wofford, Catawba, PC, etc.

[Saint3333]

CCU is a good fit for the Big South.

[PaladinFan]

I dunno. I like the conference mix. It is, top to bottom, a very competitve conference. No school utterly dominates the competition.

[citdog]

PC = Calvinists predestined to lose.xlolx

Actually, PC is in a bit of turmoil with the coaching change. It might take them awhile to recover.

G-W will only go as far as their defense takes them this fall. If we stay healthy, we should contend for the Big South crown, an injury or two, and we have another typical Patton year of 6-5 or 5-6, which gets him a year or two extension.

Box and mail your Diploma to

171 Moultrie St
Charleston, SC 29409

For saying "WE" in reference to any other school except
The Citadel.

[phoenix3]

Wake's underclass enrollment has been around 4500 students for as long as I can remember. If you count graduate students it lingers around 7000.

You're right. What a difference three decades make. Anyway, They are still dwarfed by Maryland ... hence the primary point.

[OL FU]

I'm not saying the SoCon was the Carolina's Conference then. I'm saying they are turning into the Carolina's Conference so I think you agree with my statement. In the 60's the CC was ASU, WCU, Elon, Wofford, Catawba, PC, etc.

Oh I really didn't know there was another Carolina's conference:o

[OL FU]

Hey, you left out the #2 ranked southern university!!! xsmiley_wix

:)Honestly, I know very little about Elon's academics so I didn't mention it. Same for Samford.:o

[DX Man]

And PS, Furman, Wofford and Davidson have excellet academic reputations:p:D

Yes, I agree that the above have excellent academic reputations as does Samford & Elon. I just think that as far as private schools go there should be no more than two in the mix.

[DX Man]

I think the mix between public & private and large vs. small is a good thing for the SoCon just as it is for the ACC. Wake's enrollment is about 2600 and private while Maryland's is over 40,000 and is public.

The SoCon, should it expand again, is due a large public.

That's my whole point. The ACC only has two private schools in the mix. IMO, with the current leadership at the SoCon office, there will not be any large state universities added. If a current state university were to leave, the SoCon might replace it with a smaller state universtity but more than likely would invite another private school.

[OL FU]

Yes, I agree that the above have excellent academic reputations as does Samford & Elon. I just think that as far as private schools go there should be no more than two in the mix.

The problem with that is that it distorts the historically make up of the SoCon.

As I said before the size of an institution only matters if the institution is ready to spend the money to become part of a bigger organization. When GSU and ASU is ready to do that, I will support their move to whereever. Until then there is no reason to change the historical mix of the SoCon.

[OL FU]

That's my whole point. The ACC only has two private schools in the mix. IMO, with the current leadership at the SoCon office, there will not be any large state universities added. If a current state university were to leave, the SoCon might replace it with a smaller state universtity but more than likely would invite another private school.

I don't agree. There are larger public schools that would join the SoCon in a hurray. CCU comes to mind. Are there schools as large as ASU or GSU, probably not. But that is not the fault of the SoCon. Typically those schools are in the higher sub division. As I said before, when ASU and GSU are ready for that more power to them. Until then you are arguing against tradition and precedent by wanting the SoCon to change.

[DX Man]

The problem with that is that it distorts the historically make up of the SoCon.

As I said before the size of an institution only matters if the institution is ready to spend the money to become part of a bigger organization. When GSU and ASU is ready to do that, I will support their move to whereever. Until then there is no reason to change the historical mix of the SoCon.

I invite you to take a trip to Boone and see the new facilities on the ASU campus. I think that would answer any doubts you may have about APP's monetary commitment to its future.

[OL FU]

I invite you to take a trip to Boone and see the new facilities on the ASU campus. I think that would answer any doubts you may have about APP's monetary commitment to its future.

I don't doubt it. But my point is if App is spending money equal to schools in a different subdivision and is unhappy with its current conference affiliation, then it is time for App to leave. It is not time for App (fans) to change the make up of the conference. xthumbsupx

[DX Man]

I don't agree. There are larger public schools that would join the SoCon in a hurray. CCU comes to mind. Are there schools as large as ASU or GSU, probably not. But that is not the fault of the SoCon. Typically those schools are in the higher sub division. As I said before, when ASU and GSU are ready for that more power to them. Until then you are arguing against tradition and precedent by wanting the SoCon to change.

The SoCon is already changing. I just don't want ASU to be there when all the changes are complete. You disagreed with me about any larger state schools joining the SoCon in the future and then you made my point by saying there aren't any larger state schools to join. I do think CCU would make a good addition to the SoCon either now or in the future, but it would probably take a large state school leaving the conference to get them consideration.

[DX Man]

I don't doubt it. But my point is if App is spending money equal to schools in a different subdivision and is unhappy with its current conference affiliation, then it is time for App to leave. It is not time for App (fans) to change the make up of the conference. xthumbsupx

It's obvious who controls the SoCon office and it's not APP fans or alumni. ASU has no power to change the direction of the SoCon. What ASU is doing is positioning itself so that it has more options open to it in the future.

[OL FU]

It's obvious who controls the SoCon office and it's not APP fans or alumni. ASU has no power to change the direction of the SoCon. What ASU is doing is positioning itself so that it has more options open to it in the future.

And my point is that you should have the power to change the direction. The SoCon has been a mix of large and small shools since the 1930s. Why should you have the power to change the direction of the Socon. The point is still the same and it is not that I want you to I don't. But the option is to leave ( which is fine, I wish you well) There is not reason to bitch about the make up of the SoCon when this has always been the mix.

The positioning you speak of is ok. That is what a school should do. If you don't like where you are be happy when you leave but don't complain about the SoCon being what it has been for years.

[DX Man]

And my point is that you should have the power to change the direction. The SoCon has been a mix of large and small shools since the 1930s. Why should you have the power to change the direction of the Socon. The point is still the same and it is not that I want you to I don't. But the option is to leave ( which is fine, I wish you well) There is not reason to bitch about the make up of the SoCon when this has always been the mix.

The positioning you speak of is ok. That is what a school should do. If you don't like where you are be happy when you leave but don't complain about the SoCon being what it has been for years.

Is there any point in the SoCon's history where the percentage of private schools versus public schools is as large as it currently is?

[OL FU]

Is there any point in the SoCon's history where the percentage of private schools versus public schools is as large as it currently is?

I think the point is more large versus small then you can broaden the definition of privates to include schools like William and MAry and the Citadel. I think that is a fair thing to do since we are talking more about resources and purpose of an institution. I believe there were more small schools than large when ASU joined the conference. In a previous post I out lined the number of small schools in the conference in 1972. I will try to find that post again.

My guess is when you joined the SoCon was tilted towards small schools and when GSU joined the tilt was more toward larger schools.

Right now we are 50/50 if you include the Citadel with the private schools which once again I think is reasonable. It gets distorted somewhat because Charleston and Greensboro don't play football and Davidson doesn't play football in the SoCon.

However we have an 80 year history so one can find whatever data one chooses. The modern SoCon started after 1954 (?) when the ACC was formed. Since then we have generally been about 50/50. It has varied throughout the last 45 years. however, when you consider Furman, the Citadel and if you want to throw in Davidson ( they did leave and rejoin) the historical core of the conference and the future stability of the conference is with those three schools.

[OL FU]

SoCon when APP state joined.

The Citadel
Davidson
Furman
Richmond
Virginia Military Institute
William & Mary (They may have left before ASU joined)
East Carolina

There may be a few other members at that time. It is hard to keep up with the roller coaster that is the SoCon. But the point is there were lots of small schools in the SoCon when App joined.

[DX Man]

I think the point is more large versus small then you can broaden the definition of privates to include schools like William and MAry and the Citadel. I think that is a fair thing to do since we are talking more about resources and purpose of an institution. I believe there were more small schools than large when ASU joined the conference. In a previous post I out lined the number of small schools in the conference in 1972. I will try to find that post again.

My guess is when you joined the SoCon was tilted towards small schools and when GSU joined the tilt was more toward larger schools.

Right now we are 50/50 if you include the Citadel with the private schools which once again I think is reasonable. It gets distorted somewhat because Charleston and Greensboro don't play football and Davidson doesn't play football in the SoCon.

However we have an 80 year history so one can find whatever data one chooses. The modern SoCon started after 1954 (?) when the ACC was formed. Since then we have generally been about 50/50. It has varied throughout the last 45 years. however, when you consider Furman, the Citadel and if you want to throw in Davidson ( they did leave and rejoin) the historical core of the conference and the future stability of the conference is with those three schools.

I agree the statistics can be interpreted a number of different ways. It's just IMO that the SoCon was at it's best, in recent history, when there were just one or two private schools and two military schools in the mix. Would you not agree that Furman had much success, especially in football, during that period? As I stated earlier, ASU was a much smaller school when it joined the SoCon and fit in well. I'm just not sure that is the case now. IF ASU did choose to join another conference, I would not want it to be one without any private schools in it.

[PaladinFan]

I agree the statistics can be interpreted a number of different ways. It's just IMO that the SoCon was at it's best, in recent history, when there were just one or two private schools and two military schools in the mix. Would you not agree that Furman had much success, especially in football, during that period? As I stated earlier, ASU was a much smaller school when it joined the SoCon and fit in well. I'm just not sure that is the case now. IF ASU did choose to join another conference, I would not want it to be one without any private schools in it.

I think the SoCon mirrors the ACC in a lot of ways. I think the mix of public and private schools is a good thing. It keeps the conference well balanced.

I think if you went sport by sport you would find a different school representing the top of the conference in each. I like that. Pretty much every school has a bread and butter sport they hang their hat on.

[The Gadfly]

Someone posted earlier that the ACC only has two private schools, but you have to look outside of NC sometimes: BC, Miami, Duke, and Wake. The most in the FBS

[kirkblitz]

why is the socon scared of us?

[kirkblitz]

Last I checked it was around 7K.

the goal is 12k within the next decade at the latest.

enrollment last fall was 8100 students. should be about near 9k this fall

[phoenix3]

why is the socon scared of us?

Because of your long history and tradition in football. Because of your history of beating the vast number of SoCon teams you play. But mostly because of your scary incisive posts.xlolx

[OL FU]

I agree the statistics can be interpreted a number of different ways. It's just IMO that the SoCon was at it's best, in recent history, when there were just one or two private schools and two military schools in the mix. Would you not agree that Furman had much success, especially in football, during that period? As I stated earlier, ASU was a much smaller school when it joined the SoCon and fit in well. I'm just not sure that is the case now. IF ASU did choose to join another conference, I would not want it to be one without any private schools in it.

My point, not to beat a dead horse, is one shouldn't complain about the mix of the conference when the conference is basically the same mix as when one entered the conference. The fact that ASU has changed and maybe changed to a point where they no longer feel comfortable in the conference is not a reason for the conference to change its historic make up.


Now, my fear is once ASU and GSU leaves which I firmly believe at some point they will (which might cause chatt and wcu to leave) we will become exactly what you are saying we are becoming now, a conference of small privates ( gawd I hate that term:)) . While I defend the current mix, I am concerned that losing the larger public institutions would harm the conference. My concern is more tilted toward other sports than football. The small schools have done quite well in that sport. xthumbsupx

[OL FU]

why is the socon scared of us?

We don't want to be dragged down to your level:pxsmiley_wix

[elcid83]

Box and mail your Diploma to

171 Moultrie St
Charleston, SC 29409

For saying "WE" in reference to any other school except
The Citadel.

Citdog,

I think you have mistaken 1994 for me. 94 is not a Cid grad. I am. I don't believe 94 has a diploma that WE would be interested in!

That being said, you are probably going to see me referring to WE as I am pulling for the Runnin' Bulldogs for the next several years. When you have kids playing college football, you might understand.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

[elcid83]

PC = Calvinists predestined to lose.xlolx

Actually, PC is in a bit of turmoil with the coaching change. It might take them awhile to recover.

G-W will only go as far as their defense takes them this fall. If we stay healthy, we should contend for the Big South crown, an injury or two, and we have another typical Patton year of 6-5 or 5-6, which gets him a year or two extension.

1994, I know this season will have to play out in order to quiet your annoying negative comments. I certainly don't have the history with the football program that you have, but, it appears to me that Coach Patton has gradually improved this team. It seems to me that if the Runnin' Bulldogs had better O line play last year they would have ended the season with a much better record. In order to address that concern, Coach Patton got rid of his O line coach and has put Coach Doolittle in charge of that situation. Those players are already working hard to improve their situation. I'd just ask you to give these guys a chance. I think you will be happy with the results.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

[OL FU]

Citdog,

I think you have mistaken 1994 for me. 94 is not a Cid grad. I am. I don't believe 94 has a diploma that WE would be interested in!

That being said, you are probably going to see me referring to WE as I am pulling for the Runnin' Bulldogs for the next several years. When you have kids playing college football, you might understand.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

Let's hear it for kidsxthumbsupx

[PaladinFan]

My point, not to beat a dead horse, is one shouldn't complain about the mix of the conference when the conference is basically the same mix as when one entered the conference. The fact that ASU has changed and maybe changed to a point where they no longer feel comfortable in the conference is not a reason for the conference to change its historic make up.


Now, my fear is once ASU and GSU leaves which I firmly believe at some point they will (which might cause chatt and wcu to leave) we will become exactly what you are saying we are becoming now, a conference of small privates ( gawd I hate that term:)) . While I defend the current mix, I am concerned that losing the larger public institutions would harm the conference. My concern is more tilted toward other sports than football. The small schools have done quite well in that sport. xthumbsupx

Completely agree there. I too think that if the larger schools decided to move on, that the SoCon would focus its attention elsewhere. The conference already boasts arguably one of the best midmajor basketball team in Davidson and best men's soccer programs in Furman. It would, simply, give small school administration a reason to move their focus off football.

The one school out there I'd like to see in the SoCon is Georgia State. I think they fit what the SoCon is trying to do. I'm not completely sure what they are doing in the CAA. There is a long way between New Hampshire and Atlanta.

[OL FU]

Completely agree there. I too think that if the larger schools decided to move on, that the SoCon would focus its attention elsewhere. The conference already boasts arguably one of the best midmajor basketball team in Davidson and best men's soccer programs in Furman. It would, simply, give small school administration a reason to move their focus off football.

The one school out there I'd like to see in the SoCon is Georgia State. I think they fit what the SoCon is trying to do. I'm not completely sure what they are doing in the CAA. There is a long way between New Hampshire and Atlanta.

I'll have to disagree about Georgia state for one simple reason and it is the same reason I don't think the SoCon was interested in Jacksonville state (and rightly so in my opinion). Georgia state has already stated their intention to move to FBS. I don't think the SoCon should take anyone that has said they are leaving before they join. Just my xtwocentsx

On JSU, I have heard some JSU fans state that JSU declared its intention of moving to FBS after it became clear that the SoCon wasn't knocking on its door. PErsonally , I think JSU would have been a good candidate although I am sure some of their APR issues were a concern. We already had Chattanooga and to some degree Georgia Southern, I don't think many of the schools would have been inclined to take on another potential issue with APR.

[PaladinFan]

I'll have to disagree about Georgia state for one simple reason and it is the same reason I don't think the SoCon was interested in Jacksonville state (and rightly so in my opinion). Georgia state has already stated their intention to move to FBS. I don't think the SoCon should take anyone that has said they are leaving before they join. Just my xtwocentsx

On JSU, I have heard some JSU fans state that JSU declared its intention of moving to FBS after it became clear that the SoCon wasn't knocking on its door. PErsonally , I think JSU would have been a good candidate although I am sure some of their APR issues were a concern. We already had Chattanooga and to some degree Georgia Southern, I don't think many of the schools would have been inclined to take on another potential issue with APR.

I guess I am just incredulous that teams are still willing to plunge themselves headlong into FBS football. If anything, I think the NCAA should force teams to drop down in football, not allow them to move up.

[DX Man]

My point, not to beat a dead horse, is one shouldn't complain about the mix of the conference when the conference is basically the same mix as when one entered the conference. The fact that ASU has changed and maybe changed to a point where they no longer feel comfortable in the conference is not a reason for the conference to change its historic make up.


Now, my fear is once ASU and GSU leaves which I firmly believe at some point they will (which might cause chatt and wcu to leave) we will become exactly what you are saying we are becoming now, a conference of small privates ( gawd I hate that term:)) . While I defend the current mix, I am concerned that losing the larger public institutions would harm the conference. My concern is more tilted toward other sports than football. The small schools have done quite well in that sport. xthumbsupx

IF ASU and GSU left the SoCon it would start to look very similar to the way it did when Furman first joined. I could also see UTC leaving the conference. Their media market alone makes them an attractive candidate for another conference. I don't think you would have to worry about WCU. They would probably thrive in a downsized SoCon.

[ashram]

IF ASU and GSU left the SoCon it would start to look very similar to the way it did when Furman first joined. I could also see UTC leaving the conference. Their media market alone makes them an attractive candidate for another conference. I don't think you would have to worry about WCU. They would probably thrive in a downsized SoCon.

Furman joined the conference in 1936. I don't think the SoCon will ever look like that again.

[DX Man]

Furman joined the conference in 1936. I don't think the SoCon will ever look like that again.

You are correct! I was thinking Furman joined in the 1950's.

[OL FU]

IF ASU and GSU left the SoCon it would start to look very similar to the way it did when Furman first joined. I could also see UTC leaving the conference. Their media market alone makes them an attractive candidate for another conference. I don't think you would have to worry about WCU. They would probably thrive in a downsized SoCon.

Ashram is correct, I don't think the conference will look the way it did when Furman joined cuz I doubt that all the ACC members are going to rejoin.

I also don't accept the term "Downsized".

[DX Man]

I do think if ASU and GSU left the conference, that Davidson would join the conference in football. IMO they should have never been allowed back in without joining in football also, but that Charlotte media market was just too much for the SoCon to resist.

[OL FU]

I do think if ASU and GSU left the conference, that Davidson would join the conference in football. IMO they should have never been allowed back in without joining in football also, but that Charlotte media market was just too much for the SoCon to resist.

Well I don't disagree with you on letting them back in without football but I suppose their basketball prowess was too much to resist. I don't think they would rejoin in football because they seem to have no desire to add scholarships and I don't think the SoCon is going to make an exception for that in football.

I think there are some possible replacements, and I have no idea how the confernce schools would perceive them or how receptive the schools would be without ASU and GSU in the conference. CCU, South Carolina State ( I don't think they would be perceptive unless the MEAC decided to go with the Heritage bowl instead of playoffs), but certainly the possibilities have diminished over the years as more and more large and small schools have aligned with conferences.

BTW, we have done a fine job of hijacking this thread. xthumbsupx

[g-webb1994]

1994, I know this season will have to play out in order to quiet your annoying negative comments. I certainly don't have the history with the football program that you have, but, it appears to me that Coach Patton has gradually improved this team. It seems to me that if the Runnin' Bulldogs had better O line play last year they would have ended the season with a much better record. In order to address that concern, Coach Patton got rid of his O line coach and has put Coach Doolittle in charge of that situation. Those players are already working hard to improve their situation. I'd just ask you to give these guys a chance. I think you will be happy with the results.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

Negative? Hardly. Realistic? More like it.xnodx

Whether you want to look at it or not, both of our two 'money' programs, football and mens hoops, have coaches in place with the most seniority in the conference, and both need an infusion of new blood and energy because they are both stagnant.

Mens hoops would be a slot to be filled outside of G-W, but with Pizzo already on staff, it would be very easy for Patton to step aside and let Pizzo take the head coaching slot, Joe does 90% of the work anyway, it is about time he gets rewarded before we lose him.

As for this fall, I hope like heck we can get 7-8 wins, but I'm not seeing it mainly due to the conference being stronger and two real physical games in store with FBS teams. That Buffalo game in October will be alot rougher than the game over in Raleigh in September. If our defense can stay healthy and not read their press clippings, maybe we can break the 6 win mark and contend in the conference.xthumbsupx

As for a degree you wouldn't be interested in.....your son will hopefully have one in pretty short order...so get ready to eat those words.xrotatehx

[elcid83]

As for a degree you wouldn't be interested in.....your son will hopefully have one in pretty short order...so get ready to eat those words.xrotatehx

94, I certainly didn't mean to slight the GW sheepskin. I am thrilled with my son's decision to attend GWU. I was simply letting Citdog know that he was picking on the wrong guy.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

[PaladinFan]

Ha. Your bulldogs are running in opposite directions.

[elcid83]

Ha. Your bulldogs are running in opposite directions.

My Bulldog plays D. I think 94's plays O.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

[citdog]

94, I certainly didn't mean to slight the GW sheepskin. I am thrilled with my son's decision to attend GWU. I was simply letting Citdog know that he was picking on the wrong guy.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!


83 I guess it isn't your fault that your boy doesn't have the sack to be a Whole Man like his Dad.

[Death Dealer]

why is the socon scared of us?

It's that green chicken! That ain't natural!xnonono2x






























xsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

83 I guess it isn't your fault that your boy doesn't have the sack to be a Whole Man like his Dad.

Citpup, I hope you know 83 and you guys are used to joking aroundxrolleyesx

[Death Dealer]

You are correct! I was thinking Furman joined in the 1950's.

No, to us, you boys are SOCON newbs.

[Death Dealer]

I do think if ASU and GSU left the conference, that Davidson would join the conference in football. IMO they should have never been allowed back in without joining in football also, but that Charlotte media market was just too much for the SoCon to resist.

I really think you guys should just go already. I am so freaking sick of listening to this same old tired debate every god-for-saken year. Get out, and don't let the door hit you on the way.

Having said that, I'd like to see ETSU back in the mix. Of course, they'd have to jump back in to football for that to happen. I'd also like to see SC State and CCU.

[elcid83]

Citpup, I hope you know 83 and you guys are used to joking aroundxrolleyesx

Thanks OL. Now I know why Furman hates the Bellhops so much.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

[OL FU]

Thanks OL. Now I know why Furman hates the Bellhops so much.

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

Dog's alright, he is a proud Citadel man and a proud southerner, he just sometimes forgets that southern manners are an important part of the genre:(

[DX Man]

I really think you guys should just go already. I am so freaking sick of listening to this same old tired debate every god-for-saken year. Get out, and don't let the door hit you on the way.

Having said that, I'd like to see ETSU back in the mix. Of course, they'd have to jump back in to football for that to happen. I'd also like to see SC State and CCU.

Maybe if the SoCon had thought about bringing in schools like SCSU & CCU some years ago, there would not be a debate going on now about ASU & GSU leaving. Also, why treat ETSU any different than Davidson?

[PaladinFan]

Maybe if the SoCon had thought about bringing in schools like SCSU & CCU some years ago, there would not be a debate going on now about ASU & GSU leaving.

Why?

App wants to leave because they think they are outgrowing the conference. It has nothing to do with a public/private debate. The conference has been relatively balanced for 80someodd years. ASU might be outgrowing the conference, but I don't see how years of futility in the Sun Belt is anymore appealing.

[OL FU]

Why?

App wants to leave because they think they are outgrowing the conference. It has nothing to do with a public/private debate. The conference has been relatively balanced for 80someodd years. ASU might be outgrowing the conference, but I don't see how years of futility in the Sun Belt is anymore appealing.

that's true.

The debate is not really about the SoCon. the debate is what ASU fans and GSU fans want from their schools. Those are two totally seperate debates. xnodx

[elcid83]

Both schools have a larger enrollment than Marshall University and weren't we glad to see Marshall go? Unfortunately, for Marshall, the last few years have not been very kind to them. But, C-USA football is picking up. I'm not sure which conference App St and Ga. Southern would like to play in, but, it will be a mighty long time before either plays for a National Championship.

[DX Man]

Why?

App wants to leave because they think they are outgrowing the conference. It has nothing to do with a public/private debate. The conference has been relatively balanced for 80someodd years. ASU might be outgrowing the conference, but I don't see how years of futility in the Sun Belt is anymore appealing.

I disagree about the balance. Now I will admit I base my definition of balance on private vs public and realize some base it only on the size of the school. The SoCon has chosen to go with smaller private schools in the past several years instead of vigorously going after some mid-size to large state schools. My point is that if ASU had some more attractive(stadium size, attendance, etc.) football games, there might not be so many people advocating leaving the SoCon or FCS. There is currently no FBS conference in the region that I personally would like to see ASU join. IF ASU made the jump, I would like to see a new conference formed. As I stated earlier, I would not like for that conference to be without any private schools. Its just that my idea of balance is no more than two private schools. The SoCon would be just fine without ASU or GSU. I think the last 2 or 3 commissioners chartered the course of going after private schools with great academic reputations with the full knowledge of where it would lead.

[OL FU]

Both schools have a larger enrollment than Marshall University and weren't we glad to see Marshall go? Unfortunately, for Marshall, the last few years have not been very kind to them. But, C-USA football is picking up. I'm not sure which conference App St and Ga. Southern would like to play in, but, it will be a mighty long time before either plays for a National Championship.

I was happy to see Marshall go but mainly because they were cheaters.

I would hate to see ASU or GSU go, but would have no hard feelings if they did and would wish them success in the future.

I relish Marshall's mediocrity with more joy than I can explain in an erudite manner.:D

Nothing please me more than UNH's victory over the team that shall not be named.

[OL FU]

I disagree about the balance. Now I will admit I base my definition of balance on private vs public and realize some base it only on the size of the school. The SoCon has chosen to go with smaller private schools in the past several years instead of vigorously going after some mid-size to large state schools. My point is that if ASU had some more attractive(stadium size, attendance, etc.) football games, there might not be so many people advocating leaving the SoCon or FCS. There is currently no FBS conference in the region that I personally would like to see ASU join. IF ASU made the jump, I would like to see a new conference formed. As I stated earlier, I would not like for that conference to be without any private schools. Its just that my idea of balance is no more than two private schools. The SoCon would be just fine without ASU or GSU. I think the last 2 or 3 commissioners chartered the course of going after private schools with great academic reputations with the full knowledge of where it would lead.

I don't know why you would classify the Citadel or VMI seperately from private schools. I know they are public and I know that The Citadel draw about as well as anyone. But from a mission standpoint and generally a funding standpoint and I can almost guarantee you from a voting standpoint within the conference their aligment is much closer to the small privates that the large publics. If you want to view them differently from a football perspective that is your choice, but that is not where they are aligned.

Also, I realize that this is getting old, your desire to have two private schools is your desire. That is not what the Socon is now or what it has been in the past. So your desire is simply your desire. It is not a factor in the reality of the conference.

[DX Man]

That is not what the Socon is now or what it has been in the past. So your desire is simply your desire. It is not a factor in the reality of the conference.

It is exactly what it was in the recent past. There were years when Furman was the only private school and before that just Furman and Davidson for several years.

[OL FU]

I disagree about the balance. Now I will admit I base my definition of balance on private vs public and realize some base it only on the size of the school. The SoCon has chosen to go with smaller private schools in the past several years instead of vigorously going after some mid-size to large state schools. My point is that if ASU had some more attractive(stadium size, attendance, etc.) football games, there might not be so many people advocating leaving the SoCon or FCS. There is currently no FBS conference in the region that I personally would like to see ASU join. IF ASU made the jump, I would like to see a new conference formed. As I stated earlier, I would not like for that conference to be without any private schools. Its just that my idea of balance is no more than two private schools. The SoCon would be just fine without ASU or GSU. I think the last 2 or 3 commissioners chartered the course of going after private schools with great academic reputations with the full knowledge of where it would lead.


Here are the additions and deletions to the SoCon going backwards

2008 Addition - Samford - Private
2005 Withdrawal - ETSU Public
2003 Withdrawal - VMI small
2003 Additiona - Elon - Private
1998 addition - C of C - Public
1997 addition UNC Greensboro - Public
1997 addition - Wofford - Private
1996 withdrawal - Marshall - Public
1991 addition - GSU public.

Other Davidson coming and going these are the most recent changes. Before that it was ETSU joining in 1978.

So we have had Three public schools join and three private schools join. As I said before what skews the numbers is that two to the publics didn't play football. I would agree that is an issue since crowds are the most important in football. but that does not show a proclivity toward only small schools


Withdrawals were one small and two public. So the net change was one small schools addition over almost 20 years.


The reason that we had two privates in the last to additions is that the small schools want this type of historical balance in the conference.

At the risk of repeating myself, there is nothing wrong with your opinion that the conference should be made up differently. We all have opinions:D I have one too but the school presidents (as a group) aren't going to change mix of the conference (1) because of our opinions or (2) they have no choice.

[OL FU]

It is exactly what it was in the recent past. There were years when Furman was the only private school and before that just Furman and Davidson for several years.

There is no doubt that the mix has varied. But as I showed you earlier when ASU joined the conference was basically all small schools. The conference has changed over the years based on available schools but you can't look at it at one point in time. The tradition and the history is clearly to have a mix that is roughly equal . I mean honestly if you can't see that after all these posts then I am wasting my breath striving for reason or you are just too damn hard headed to look at this from an unbiased perspective. :D

[DX Man]

Here are the additions and deletions to the SoCon going backwards

2008 Addition - Samford - Private
2005 Withdrawal - ETSU Public
2003 Withdrawal - VMI small
2003 Additiona - Elon - Private
1998 addition - C of C - Public
1997 addition UNC Greensboro - Public
1997 addition - Wofford - Private
1996 withdrawal - Marshall - Public
1991 addition - GSU public.

Other Davidson coming and going these are the most recent changes. Before that it was ETSU joining in 1978.

So we have had Three public schools join and three private schools join. As I said before what skews the numbers is that two to the publics didn't play football. I would agree that is an issue since crowds are the most important in football. but that does not show a proclivity toward only small schools


Withdrawals were one small and two public. So the net change was one small schools addition over almost 20 years.


The reason that we had two privates in the last to additions is that the small schools want this type of historical balance in the conference.

At the risk of repeating myself, there is nothing wrong with your opinion that the conference should be made up differently. We all have opinions:D I have one too but the school presidents (as a group) aren't going to change mix of the conference (1) because of our opinions or (2) they have no choice.

I see your point. I think the current make-up of the SoCon would be OK if football were taken out of the equation. Because this is a football message board that is the main sport I have been looking at. As far as I'm concerned the non-football schools do not enter into the equation. Your right about the presidents. As a majority they are not going to vote to grow the conference with bigger schools because the small/private schools now have the majority vote and therefore have all the control. Just look at the backgrounds of the last two SoCon commissioners.
When ECU left the conference, ETSU was brought in and that kept the balance of the current make-up in place. There was no effort to replace ETSU or Marshall with similar programs.

[OL FU]

I see your point. I think the current make-up of the SoCon would be OK if football were taken out of the equation. Because this is a football message board that is the main sport I have been looking at. As far as I'm concerned the non-football schools do not enter into the equation. Your right about the presidents. As a majority they are not going to vote to grow the conference with bigger schools because the small/private schools now have the majority vote and therefore have all the control. Just look at the backgrounds of the last two SoCon commissioners.
When ECU left the conference, ETSU was brought in and that kept the balance of the current make-up in place. There was no effort to replace ETSU or Marshall with similar programs.

The vote is 50/50 large versus small.

funny that we agree that I would have like to have seen a larger football playing school brought in. We just don't agree that the conference has changed directionxthumbsupx

If changes are required the PResidents will do their best to maintain the balance of large and small. I am just not sure if that is possible if ASU and GSU leave.

[DX Man]

The vote is 50/50 large versus small.

funny that we agree that I would have like to have seen a larger football playing school brought in. We just don't agree that the conference has changed directionxthumbsupx

If changes are required the PResidents will do their best to maintain the balance of large and small. I am just not sure if that is possible if ASU and GSU leave.

No matter what the future holds, I hope there is never a time when Furman is not on the ASU schedule. I guess we've hijacked this thread enough. xpeacex

[Saint3333]

In the past 17 years: 3 football private schools admitted, 0 football public schools, not saying, just saying.

[g-webb1994]

I don't think ETSU will reinstate football anytime in the near future, if they did, they would be a nice fit in the Big South. Appy and GSU both would be making a grave mistake by leaving the SOCON.

The reason for my hope of ETSU to the Big South is the ongoing rhetoric of Belmont and Lipscomb leaving the Atlantic Sun, meaning that conference is imploding, and ETSU could be looking elsewhere. Campbell already made the move, so why not ETSU?

Now back to football....

[gophoenix]

I see your point. I think the current make-up of the SoCon would be OK if football were taken out of the equation. Because this is a football message board that is the main sport I have been looking at. As far as I'm concerned the non-football schools do not enter into the equation. Your right about the presidents. As a majority they are not going to vote to grow the conference with bigger schools because the small/private schools now have the majority vote and therefore have all the control. Just look at the backgrounds of the last two SoCon commissioners.
When ECU left the conference, ETSU was brought in and that kept the balance of the current make-up in place. There was no effort to replace ETSU or Marshall with similar programs.

The same could be said in the 60s.
Washington & Lee left and no one replaced them.
Virginia Tech left and were replaced by East Carolina (an NAIA moveup).
George Washington Left
West Virgnia left
Appalachian came in (a recent NAIA moveup)
East Carolina, Richmond and W&M left and were replaced by UTC (DII moveup), ETSU (DII moveup) and Western Carolina (NAIA moveup), Marshall (an established school that had questionable football at the time)

40 years ago, not only did the conference lose big schools in West Virginia and Virginia tech and replaced them lower division moveups, they lost 3 private schools and one smaller school and replaced them with not only public schools, but public schools moving up.

Right now, outside of the basketball schools, you replaced members with relatively established private schools for the division. By definitions of lots of complaints, there situation now is much better than the situation that was taken in the 60s and 70s.

Replacing ETSU and VMI who didn't commit to the sport with Elon and Samford who do is much better overall than replacing West Virginia and Virginia Tech at the time with any of App, ECU, Marshall, ETSU, WCU or UTC at the time. All the complaints now could have applied then easily....

[gophoenix]

In the past 17 years: 3 football private schools admitted, 0 football public schools, not saying, just saying.

Since the ACC departure, football changes:
4 private schools lost
3 private schools admitted
7 public schools lost
7 public schools admitted

Not just saying, just saying.

Not just that, in the past 17 years:
1 public school dropped football
0 private schools dropped football

1 public school moved from lack of competitiveness
0 private schools left for that reason

[kirkblitz]

It's that green chicken! That ain't natural!xnonono2x





xsmiley_wix

we is teal colored :D

[Death Dealer]

The same could be said in the 60s.
Washington & Lee left and no one replaced them.
Virginia Tech left and were replaced by East Carolina (an NAIA moveup).
George Washington Left
West Virgnia left
Appalachian came in (a recent NAIA moveup)
East Carolina, Richmond and W&M left and were replaced by UTC (DII moveup), ETSU (DII moveup) and Western Carolina (NAIA moveup), Marshall (an established school that had questionable football at the time)

40 years ago, not only did the conference lose big schools in West Virginia and Virginia tech and replaced them lower division moveups, they lost 3 private schools and one smaller school and replaced them with not only public schools, but public schools moving up.

Right now, outside of the basketball schools, you replaced members with relatively established private schools for the division. By definitions of lots of complaints, there situation now is much better than the situation that was taken in the 60s and 70s.

Replacing ETSU and VMI who didn't commit to the sport with Elon and Samford who do is much better overall than replacing West Virginia and Virginia Tech at the time with any of App, ECU, Marshall, ETSU, WCU or UTC at the time. All the complaints now could have applied then easily....

Those damn pesky numbers.xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[Death Dealer]

we is teal colored :D

Dude, I'm a guy. I pretty much see in primary. Teal is just green's effeminate second cousin. xrolleyesx

Of course, I should talk, eh? Purple? Well, it is the color of royalty. xrolleyesx

[OL FU]

Well to bring this back around full circle

GW/WCU and PC/Chattanooga seemed to be the most winnable for the BSouth. :o

[DX Man]

Well to bring this back around full circle

GW/WCU and PC/Chattanooga seemed to be the most winnable for the BSouth. :o

Those would be my pics too.

[PaladinFan]

My question to you App fans is where exactly do you see yourself in 5 or 10 years? App, like GSU, is a regional school. I don't mean that negatively either. Neither is attached to a major city, airport, interstate, etc. Students generally don't travel across the state to attend (maybe to a lesser degree with ASU because of its status as a mini, eastern version of Boulder). But the question is, just how big can App/GSU football get?

Right now App is drawing 20k someodd fans a game. That's roughly the exact same for teams like MTSU, La Lafayette, Troy, etc. Schools that have a comparble makeup to ASU/GSU. I don't think moving out of the SoCon is going to put more visiting fannies in the seats. In truth, I doubt that Florida International would bring any more fans to Boone than Furman would.

This is certainly not a cut at the university, but only a question of economics. There has to be a ceiling doesn't there? Even UGA football, who could feasibly build a stadium that seats 150k and not fit in everyone who would attend a game, has a ceiling somewhere. Is it a prestige thing? Does it sound better to play MTSU than Wofford? Is it a desire to one day see a home game against Notre Dame or something? Jut how popular do you think your university's football program will become by moving out of the SoCon?

[SideLine Shooter]

My question to you App fans is where exactly do you see yourself in 5 or 10 years? App, like GSU, is a regional school. I don't mean that negatively either. Neither is attached to a major city, airport, interstate, etc. Students generally don't travel across the state to attend (maybe to a lesser degree with ASU because of its status as a mini, eastern version of Boulder). But the question is, just how big can App/GSU football get?

Right now App is drawing 20k someodd fans a game. That's roughly the exact same for teams like MTSU, La Lafayette, Troy, etc. Schools that have a comparble makeup to ASU/GSU. I don't think moving out of the SoCon is going to put more visiting fannies in the seats. In truth, I doubt that Florida International would bring any more fans to Boone than Furman would.

This is certainly not a cut at the university, but only a question of economics. There has to be a ceiling doesn't there? Even UGA football, who could feasibly build a stadium that seats 150k and not fit in everyone who would attend a game, has a ceiling somewhere. Is it a prestige thing? Does it sound better to play MTSU than Wofford? Is it a desire to one day see a home game against Notre Dame or something? Jut how popular do you think your university's football program will become by moving out of the SoCon?

I have to agree with you all the way on this one. I think leaving the SoCon to move up would be a terrible mistake. The travel would be a problem and when you turn into an average team the seats probably will not be full. I have only missed 1 game out of the last 60 games App has played.

I like App.ST. right where they are. They fill the stadium with 30,000 plus every home game and the SoCon competition is excellent every year.

[OL FU]

I have to agree with you all the way on this one. I think leaving the SoCon to move up would be a terrible mistake. The travel would be a problem and when you turn into an average team the seats probably will not be full. I have only missed 1 game out of the last 60 games App has played.

I like App.ST. right where they are. They fill the stadium with 30,000 plus every home game and the SoCon competition is excellent every year.

Don't you think alot of ASU fans see themselves on par with ECU as far as size of the schools, etc and would like to be on a comparable level with them.

[ButlerGSU]

My question to you App fans is where exactly do you see yourself in 5 or 10 years? App, like GSU, is a regional school. I don't mean that negatively either. Neither is attached to a major city, airport, interstate, etc. Students generally don't travel across the state to attend (maybe to a lesser degree with ASU because of its status as a mini, eastern version of Boulder). But the question is, just how big can App/GSU football get?

Right now App is drawing 20k someodd fans a game. That's roughly the exact same for teams like MTSU, La Lafayette, Troy, etc. Schools that have a comparble makeup to ASU/GSU. I don't think moving out of the SoCon is going to put more visiting fannies in the seats. In truth, I doubt that Florida International would bring any more fans to Boone than Furman would.

This is certainly not a cut at the university, but only a question of economics. There has to be a ceiling doesn't there? Even UGA football, who could feasibly build a stadium that seats 150k and not fit in everyone who would attend a game, has a ceiling somewhere. Is it a prestige thing? Does it sound better to play MTSU than Wofford? Is it a desire to one day see a home game against Notre Dame or something? Jut how popular do you think your university's football program will become by moving out of the SoCon?

Not to be argumentative but Statesboro is connected to an Interstate in I-16 which is 2 miles south of the city.

As far as our students, well over 60% come from Atlanta so they travel four hours to attend the University. Additionally, every state and 86 nations are represented in the student body.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

In the past 17 years: 3 football private schools admitted, 0 football public schools, not saying, just saying.

Cry me a bleepin' river. Are you honestly going to tell me that you'd exchange any pair of private schools in the SoCon for VMI and ETSU? It might be nice to have a couple of days off in the football season, but other than that I can't imagine wanting to make that trade-off. Honestly, why do GSU and ASU fans care so much about the ratio of public to private schools? You notice that Western, CofC, and Chatty fans don't complain about it.

[OL FU]

Cry me a bleepin' river. Are you honestly going to tell me that you'd exchange any pair of private schools in the SoCon for VMI and ETSU? It might be nice to have a couple of days off in the football season, but other than that I can't imagine wanting to make that trade-off. Honestly, why do GSU and ASU fans care so much about the ratio of public to private schools? You notice that Western, CofC, and Chatty fans don't complain about it.

Damn good point. The only large public that left and was good at football was Marshall (in modern SoCon history). Certainly they were very very good but they didn't get that good until they decided the (1) they were moving up and (2) the rules didn't apply to them.

[SideLine Shooter]

Don't you think alot of ASU fans see themselves on par with ECU as far as size of the schools, etc and would like to be on a comparable level with them.

They might, but I don't in sports.

As far as academics, ASU is ahead of ECU as far as undergraduate studies are concerned.

[OL FU]

They might, but I don't in sports.

As far as academics, ASU is ahead of ECU as far as undergraduate studies are concerned.

I wasn't considering academics. I know nothing of ECUs academics and I am aware of ASU and the improvements that have been madexthumbsupx (Hell current FU students have made my degree much more valuable than when I graduated:D). It seems once you get past the big two (UNC and NC State) the next big two state schools as ASU and ECU and many ASU fans look at the conference that ECU is in and say why not us. xtwocentsx

[Woof]

Does it sound better to play MTSU than Wofford?

NO !:D

[PaladinFan]

Not to be argumentative but Statesboro is connected to an Interstate in I-16 which is 2 miles south of the city.

As far as our students, well over 60% come from Atlanta so they travel four hours to attend the University. Additionally, every state and 86 nations are represented in the student body.

I 16 runs from Macon to Savannah. Only really one exit with even a gas station between the two. True it's an interstate, but you understand my point.

You're right though, it is a generalization. However, I think GSU still gets classified as a regional university (which is no slight). UGA and GT are the only other public colleges in Georgia that don't really fit the "regional" mold. I am also not naive enough to think that people from all over the place don't attend regional universities. For example, my wife is from south Texas and attended a regional university in Georgia on a scholarship.

My point is, I suppose, that GSU will be relegated to a fan base that centers around Southeast Georgia. Granted, there's no problem with that. Only that it doesn't make sense (to me at least) why a unveristy would want to jump ship on the SoCon for essentially the same deal in the FBS but not win as much.

[PaladinFan]

I wasn't considering academics. I know nothing of ECUs academics and I am aware of ASU and the improvements that have been madexthumbsupx (Hell current FU students have made my degree much more valuable than when I graduated:D). It seems once you get past the big two (UNC and NC State) the next big two state schools as ASU and ECU and many ASU fans look at the conference that ECU is in and say why not us. xtwocentsx

You ain't kidding. I could not get into nor afford Furman these days, I think.

[SideLine Shooter]

I wasn't considering academics. I know nothing of ECUs academics and I am aware of ASU and the improvements that have been madexthumbsupx (Hell current FU students have made my degree much more valuable than when I graduated:D). It seems once you get past the big two (UNC and NC State) the next big two state schools as ASU and ECU and many ASU fans look at the conference that ECU is in and say why not us. xtwocentsx

I understand and agree.

The Charlotte Observer did an article (large article) in 2005 before ASU's first N/C and stated that ASU's football program by statistics was "In past 20 years, Appalachian St. best of Carolinas."

"The Observer used 11 catagories to measure college football success in the Carolinas over the past 20 years.
-Overall winning percentage.
-Conference winning percentage.
-Conference championships.
-Coaching stability.
-Postseason appearances.
-National championships (0 at the time this article came out.)
-First team All-Americans
-Players drafted by the NFL.
-Average draft round per player.
-Winning seasons.
-Average finish in conference standings."

"The 13 schools were assigned points based on their rankings within each category (13 for first place, 12 for second, etc). The points from each category were totaled to determinw a school's overall ranking."

"Note: Schools must have played I-A or I-AA football in each of the past 20 seasons to be eligible. All records and statistics are through the 2004 season."

#1 - Appalachian State had a score of 121.5
#2 - Clemson score was 114
#3 - Furman score was 108 (with the only N/C in Carolinas. as of 2004.)
#4 - N.C. A&T score was 91.5
#5 - UNC score was 89
#6 - N.C. State score was 88.5
#7 - S.C. State score was 85.5
#8 - ECU score was 69
#9 - USC score was 66
#10 - Wake score was 51.5
#11 - The Citadel score was 44
#12 - WCU score was 37.5
#13 - Duke score was 35

[OL FU]

You ain't kidding. I could not get into nor afford Furman these days, I think.

$2500/ year or $4000 per year if you lived in a dorm when I graduated:o

[PaladinFan]

$2500/ year or $4000 per year if you lived in a dorm when I graduated:o

I'll go on a limb and say you're a bit older than I am then.

[OL FU]

I'll go on a limb and say you're a bit older than I am then.

That is probably a safe betxlolx

[biggie]

With all the publicity/etc, App has become the same to say most of us that went there in the past couldn't get in now or afford to go now. The GPA and SAT scores have risen (though hard to judge SAT when its from 2400 now and 1600 'back in tha day'.) I know it was just mentioned last week, first I heard, that they had 2,750 new freshman this coming Fall (plus some transfers), but had over 16,000 applications to get in.

But I'm having a hard enought time paying off my 10 years of student loans and I didn't get loans the entire time. Was under $1000 a semester for 15-16 hours when living off campus (from '97-'00 or so). My last year I had stayed too long and they started charging fees for having too many hours, got me.

[OL FU]

With all the publicity/etc, App has become the same to say most of us that went there in the past couldn't get in now or afford to go now. The GPA and SAT scores have risen (though hard to judge SAT when its from 2400 now and 1600 'back in tha day'.) I know it was just mentioned last week, first I heard, that they had 2,750 new freshman this coming Fall (plus some transfers), but had over 16,000 applications to get in.

But I'm having a hard enought time paying off my 10 years of student loans and I didn't get loans the entire time. Was under $1000 a semester for 15-16 hours when living off campus (from '97-'00 or so). My last year I had stayed too long and they started charging fees for having too many hours, got me.

You liked schoolxnodx

[biggie]

You liked schoolxnodx
That's the length of the payment plan, 10 years to repay starting 6 months after graduation. I had about $15k in loans (used them for rent/bills as well as school).

But I was at App for 5.5 years and 4 summer schools. Believe I grad'd with right at 150 hours.

[OL FU]

That's the length of the payment plan, 10 years to repay starting 6 months after graduation. I had about $15k in loans (used them for rent/bills as well as school).

But I was at App for 5.5 years and 4 summer schools. Believe I grad'd with right at 150 hours.

I thought maybe you were on the same attendances plan I was onxlolx








I was kidding. xsmiley_wix

[biggie]

I thought maybe you were on the same attendances plan I was onxlolx



I was kidding. xsmiley_wix
I'd still be in school if possible, but definitely had enough debt and needed to start working a real job. Even with 3-4 jobs during college it wasn't enough.

At least its only 3 more years of loan payments. Then that edumication will phinely be mines.

[OL FU]

I'd still be in school if possible, but definitely had enough debt and needed to start working a real job. Even with 3-4 jobs during college it wasn't enough.

At least its only 3 more years of loan payments. Then that edumication will phinely be mines.

That can't take the intangibles form youxthumbsupx

[Mntneer]

Don't you think alot of ASU fans see themselves on par with ECU as far as size of the schools, etc and would like to be on a comparable level with them.

I know this wasn't directed at me, and I tend to lean against moving to FBS as it currently exists. But I can tell you that many ASU fans do see a natural rival in ECU. Although they are much larger from an enrollment perspective, and have the edge in number of graduate/professional programs, their undergraduate academics are clearly inferior to ASU.

Although you'll find many ASU fans favor moving to FBS, most will qualify that statement by stating they only favor it if we're presented with the right conference affiliation. Meaning, not the Sun Belt. I think most folks are hoping for a new conference entirely or some sort of sundering of CUSA along geographical lines. For many, the problem with our current position is not so much the quality of opponent in the SoCon, but rather the overall gameday experiences outside The Rock. Schools like Wofford are putting a solid product on the field, but offer what some App fans consider a high school-ish draw and experience. That's not a knock against them, they are a very small school and have an amazing program.

Lastly, App fans are getting tired of playing 2nd fiddle to North Carolina's many FBS programs. Regardless of our accomplishments in FCS and their lack of any at FBS, ASU continues to be viewed as inferior by programs (and fans of programs) that refuse to schedule them.

Edit: For the record, I'm not 100% on board with a move to FBS. But mostly, I don't devote a lot of thought to it since I'm not going to be consulted on any decisions that are made ;) I'm going to continue to support App regardless.

[phoenixphanatic21]

I thought maybe you were on the same attendances plan I was onxlolx


That's the plan I was thinking of getting on, only because I'm not ready to graduate just yet. I mean, it worked for Bluto in Animal House. How could it possibly fail?

[gophoenix]

I know this wasn't directed at me, and I tend to lean against moving to FBS as it currently exists. But I can tell you that many ASU fans do see a natural rival in ECU. Although they are much larger from an enrollment perspective, and have the edge in number of graduate/professional programs, their undergraduate academics are clearly inferior to ASU.

Although you'll find many ASU fans favor moving to FBS, most will qualify that statement by stating they only favor it if we're presented with the right conference affiliation. Meaning, not the Sun Belt. I think most folks are hoping for a new conference entirely or some sort of sundering of CUSA along geographical lines. For many, the problem with our current position is not so much the quality of opponent in the SoCon, but rather the overall gameday experiences outside The Rock. Schools like Wofford are putting a solid product on the field, but offer what some App fans consider a high school-ish draw and experience. That's not a knock against them, they are a very small school and have an amazing program.

Lastly, App fans are getting tired of playing 2nd fiddle to North Carolina's many FBS programs. Regardless of our accomplishments in FCS and their lack of any at FBS, ASU continues to be viewed as inferior by programs (and fans of programs) that refuse to schedule them.

Edit: For the record, I'm not 100% on board with a move to FBS. But mostly, I don't devote a lot of thought to it since I'm not going to be consulted on any decisions that are made ;) I'm going to continue to support App regardless.

Even if App moves up, they will still play second fiddle to ECU, NC State, UNC, Duke and Wake regardless of where you go. ECU fans don't, and won't regard App as on par with them simply because they are ECU, have been there for years, had top 10 seasons, etc. Just like many App fans will never view themselves as on par with Elon and Wofford despite what Elon and Wofford do, how well they do, how much they grow or the history App has had with them in the past. There are fans that will never view App as on par, just like their are your fans that will never view us as on par with you.

People wanting decisions expecting a move to be some gain of respect are in for huge disappointment. Heck, look at how ECU fans are treating the App game right now; you think a move to FBS is going to change that view for them?

By that same token. App drawing 20-30k per game is garbage compared to what top FBS programs are putting out. So the away gameday experience is better... but what does that mean exactly? What does high schoolish mean? What is playing Troy or MTSU (which have been used as examples) mean? What does a good game day experience mean if you aren't winning the games?

[OL FU]

I know this wasn't directed at me, and I tend to lean against moving to FBS as it currently exists. But I can tell you that many ASU fans do see a natural rival in ECU. Although they are much larger from an enrollment perspective, and have the edge in number of graduate/professional programs, their undergraduate academics are clearly inferior to ASU.

Although you'll find many ASU fans favor moving to FBS, most will qualify that statement by stating they only favor it if we're presented with the right conference affiliation. Meaning, not the Sun Belt. I think most folks are hoping for a new conference entirely or some sort of sundering of CUSA along geographical lines. For many, the problem with our current position is not so much the quality of opponent in the SoCon, but rather the overall gameday experiences outside The Rock. Schools like Wofford are putting a solid product on the field, but offer what some App fans consider a high school-ish draw and experience. That's not a knock against them, they are a very small school and have an amazing program.

Lastly, App fans are getting tired of playing 2nd fiddle to North Carolina's many FBS programs. Regardless of our accomplishments in FCS and their lack of any at FBS, ASU continues to be viewed as inferior by programs (and fans of programs) that refuse to schedule them.

Edit: For the record, I'm not 100% on board with a move to FBS. But mostly, I don't devote a lot of thought to it since I'm not going to be consulted on any decisions that are made ;) I'm going to continue to support App regardless.


A very good post. As I said before, I am not opposed to any team moving up. I think the east west rivalry between ASU and ECU would be a good one. I also understand the game day experience issue. I understand the issues. But at the same time, when specifically talking about the history of the Socon I don't think the experience was any better at ETSU or Chattanooga. I realize it was better at MArshall as long as you wore your combat helmet and or dressed in greenxmadx

[elon77]

That's the length of the payment plan, 10 years to repay starting 6 months after graduation. I had about $15k in loans (used them for rent/bills as well as school).

But I was at App for 5.5 years and 4 summer schools. Believe I grad'd with right at 150 hours.

They should name a building or still after you, or have they already?xnodx

[biggie]

They should name a building or still after you, or have they already?xnodx
There is a dorm with my last name, guess that'll have to count.

[PaladinFan]

I know this wasn't directed at me, and I tend to lean against moving to FBS as it currently exists. But I can tell you that many ASU fans do see a natural rival in ECU. Although they are much larger from an enrollment perspective, and have the edge in number of graduate/professional programs, their undergraduate academics are clearly inferior to ASU.

Although you'll find many ASU fans favor moving to FBS, most will qualify that statement by stating they only favor it if we're presented with the right conference affiliation. Meaning, not the Sun Belt. I think most folks are hoping for a new conference entirely or some sort of sundering of CUSA along geographical lines. For many, the problem with our current position is not so much the quality of opponent in the SoCon, but rather the overall gameday experiences outside The Rock. Schools like Wofford are putting a solid product on the field, but offer what some App fans consider a high school-ish draw and experience. That's not a knock against them, they are a very small school and have an amazing program.

Lastly, App fans are getting tired of playing 2nd fiddle to North Carolina's many FBS programs. Regardless of our accomplishments in FCS and their lack of any at FBS, ASU continues to be viewed as inferior by programs (and fans of programs) that refuse to schedule them.

Edit: For the record, I'm not 100% on board with a move to FBS. But mostly, I don't devote a lot of thought to it since I'm not going to be consulted on any decisions that are made ;) I'm going to continue to support App regardless.

See, you say what most of us think the issue is. App fans, despite their success feel inferior to a much less successful ECU program. I can understand that being annoying. I get the same impression from GSU fans who seem to say that they always feel like the little sister of UGA/GT.

I guess that's where my questions arise from. Do you want to move to the FBS because it would be the best for your university or because you get tired of the ECU guy at work talking about how ASU plays in a who-cares conference in a who-cares level of football?

For the record, it annoys me too. Many people have never heard of Furman much less are educated on its decades of football success. I, personally, am a strong proponent of forcing teams to move out of the FBS. 90% of the teams in the FBS couldn't stay on the field with the top 10% of the teams, so why does it matter which subdivision they play in?

[Mntneer]

See, you say what most of us think the issue is. App fans, despite their success feel inferior to a much less successful ECU program. I can understand that being annoying. I get the same impression from GSU fans who seem to say that they always feel like the little sister of UGA/GT.

I guess that's where my questions arise from. Do you want to move to the FBS because it would be the best for your university or because you get tired of the ECU guy at work talking about how ASU plays in a who-cares conference in a who-cares level of football?

For the record, it annoys me too. Many people have never heard of Furman much less are educated on its decades of football success. I, personally, am a strong proponent of forcing teams to move out of the FBS. 90% of the teams in the FBS couldn't stay on the field with the top 10% of the teams, so why does it matter which subdivision they play in?

I agree with you that a definitive floor needs to be enforced for FBS. Similarly though, I think we need one for FCS. An alternative to ASU moving up in my mind would be to restructure Div I football such that it's not FBS and the rest, where the rest seemingly consists of one school who is non-scholly and/or refuses to participate in the post season for every quality program. Just as schools who shouldn't be in FBS should be forced to drop, schools in FCS simply because they want to be Div I in other sports should be both allowed and required to drop their football programs to Div II.

[gophoenix]

I agree with you that a definitive floor needs to be enforced for FBS. Similarly though, I think we need one for FCS. An alternative to ASU moving up in my mind would be to restructure Div I football such that it's not FBS and the rest, where the rest seemingly consists of one school who is non-scholly and/or refuses to participate in the post season for every quality program. Just as schools who shouldn't be in FBS should be forced to drop, schools in FCS simply because they want to be Div I in other sports should be both allowed and required to drop their football programs to Div II.

See, and I disagree with that. If you want to be division I in one sport, you should be for all. That keeps schools from putting all their eggs in one basket because I could see a ton doing that. Heck, we all complain enough about Davidson and football in that they are allowed to put all their eggs into the basketball basket without having to front it for football too. I just see more of that with football.

What it should be is, if you want to front the money allow from 50-75 scholarships, get rid of the subdivision and who gives a rat's tail about attendance.

[OL FU]

See, and I disagree with that. If you want to be division I in one sport, you should be for all. That keeps schools from putting all their eggs in one basket because I could see a ton doing that. Heck, we all complain enough about Davidson and football in that they are allowed to put all their eggs into the basketball basket without having to front it for football too. I just see more of that with football.

What it should be is, if you want to front the money allow from 50-75 scholarships, get rid of the subdivision and who gives a rat's tail about attendance.

But the argument we make now. Davidson spends no where near what the SoCon football schools do on football which benefits their basketball program. I have no clue but I would guess their current budget would be close to the DIII level.

now the difference might be that they would be a kick ass DIII football team instead of a bad FCS team

[Saint3333]

Recently more SoCon fans are talking about ASU moving to the FBS than the ASU fans, did I miss something?

If ASU and GSU were to leave who would you guys want to see replace them?

[gophoenix]

Recently more SoCon fans are talking about ASU moving to the FBS than the ASU fans, did I miss something?

If ASU and GSU were to leave who would you guys want to see replace them?

I'd like to see someone from the SC State, Liberty, Coastal Carolina, Tennessee Tech, Jacksonville State, Hampton, Richmond, William & Mary, Eastern Kentucky, NC A&T type category

[Saint3333]

Richmond or W&M isn't realistic no chance they leave the CAA. EKU and JSU would be good choices though.

[DX Man]

I realize there are a lot of teams people would LIKE to see join the SoCon if slots were to open up. There are several fine private schools in NC & SC that would make a good fit and I think the best/biggest the SoCon could get as far as public schools are Coastal Carolina & Jax State. No school would leave the CAA or OVC to join, IMO, and it would be VERY difficult to get an HBCU to join.

[Saint3333]

JSU is in the OVC and IMO would have joined the SoCon if asked instead of Samford last year. I think they'd consider the SoCon, but in this scenario without ASU and GSU they may not be as quick to leave the OVC.

I think SC State would leave the MEAC and they have some of the best fans around.

[DX Man]

JSU is in the OVC and IMO would have joined the SoCon if asked instead of Samford last year. I think they'd consider the SoCon, but in this scenario without ASU and GSU they may not be as quick to leave the OVC.

I think SC State would leave the MEAC and they have some of the best fans around.

Good point. I was thinking more along the line of EKU. I also think that IF
ASU and GSU left the SoCon, UTC would move to the OVC.

[OL FU]

Recently more SoCon fans are talking about ASU moving to the FBS than the ASU fans, did I miss something?

If ASU and GSU were to leave who would you guys want to see replace them?

I think we have been listening to many of the GSU and ASU fans and just assumed that eventually it will happen. xnodx

[elon77]

There is a dorm with my last name, guess that'll have to count.

How does Biggie's Gentlemen's Club sound?

[gophoenix]

JSU is in the OVC and IMO would have joined the SoCon if asked instead of Samford last year. I think they'd consider the SoCon, but in this scenario without ASU and GSU they may not be as quick to leave the OVC.

I think SC State would leave the MEAC and they have some of the best fans around.

You asked for our opinions, we didn't ask for yours.

Whoever is taken has to be able not just to fill the football void, but ensure stability for the conference as a whole (in all sports). Western, UTC, (even ETSU and GSU) do not offer as many sports as Elon, Samford and Furman. Why private schools seem to offer more than the regional public schools is beyond me, but its true.

You asked for ideas, I gave ideas.
-Richmond would be at best an associate member. This would mark them out.
-William & Mary is content in the CAA (I would be too, still mad at the admins for getting us in the SoCon and turning CAA down).
-Jax St, regardless of their interest, was actively and publicly pursuing FBS. With that fact, this screws up the stability the conference wants. So as much as some of you think Jax St would have taken it, then you would be looking at possibly 3 members leaving soon. What's the point in the for the rest of us?
-Liberty Also have FBS intentions made public. They fund well, are expanding everything, so this would probably mark them out too.
-Georgia State - ditto.

That leaves one of the MEACs, better D-II moveups, Big South or OVC schools. I think you could get Austin Peay or TTU to make the move. EKU is out because newspapers have already stated their cuts in funding and travel concerns in the OVC.

So the deal is, just because App and GSU leave doesn't mean the SoCon is not viable for other schools. You guys sound like seniors when they graduate from hich school who expe3ct the school to fall apart after they are gone. It's not going to happen. And the SoCon is still a good conference with Furman, Elon, Samford, Wofford and The Citadel even without App/GSU. It's still a good baseball league like that. It's still a good soccer league and tennis, etc.

The conference will go on without you guys, it will still be good and it will still have the similar makeup it has now.

[PaladinFan]

JSU is in the OVC and IMO would have joined the SoCon if asked instead of Samford last year. I think they'd consider the SoCon, but in this scenario without ASU and GSU they may not be as quick to leave the OVC.

I think SC State would leave the MEAC and they have some of the best fans around.

I would have liked to see JSU join. Far more than I wanted to see a Coastal addition.

I got the feeling (though I may be way off base) that JSU wasn't really an option because they are on the fast track to the FBS. They still had probably the nicest FCS stadium I've been in with a great band and gameday atmosphere.

I'd personally like to see the conference at 12 teams, divided into two divisions with a rotation of playing out of division teams.

[biggie]

How does Biggie's Gentlemen's Club sound?
Believe many have tried to open such establishments in and around Boone for many years. No go. Its hard enough just to keep a bar open there.

Have to settle for something in TN. Like the classy places back in the day, such as: Mouse's Ear and Bottom's Up.

[Saint3333]

You asked for our opinions, we didn't ask for yours.

Whoever is taken has to be able not just to fill the football void, but ensure stability for the conference as a whole (in all sports). Western, UTC, (even ETSU and GSU) do not offer as many sports as Elon, Samford and Furman. Why private schools seem to offer more than the regional public schools is beyond me, but its true.

You asked for ideas, I gave ideas.
-Richmond would be at best an associate member. This would mark them out.
-William & Mary is content in the CAA (I would be too, still mad at the admins for getting us in the SoCon and turning CAA down).
-Jax St, regardless of their interest, was actively and publicly pursuing FBS. With that fact, this screws up the stability the conference wants. So as much as some of you think Jax St would have taken it, then you would be looking at possibly 3 members leaving soon. What's the point in the for the rest of us?
-Liberty Also have FBS intentions made public. They fund well, are expanding everything, so this would probably mark them out too.
-Georgia State - ditto.

That leaves one of the MEACs, better D-II moveups, Big South or OVC schools. I think you could get Austin Peay or TTU to make the move. EKU is out because newspapers have already stated their cuts in funding and travel concerns in the OVC.

So the deal is, just because App and GSU leave doesn't mean the SoCon is not viable for other schools. You guys sound like seniors when they graduate from hich school who expe3ct the school to fall apart after they are gone. It's not going to happen. And the SoCon is still a good conference with Furman, Elon, Samford, Wofford and The Citadel even without App/GSU. It's still a good baseball league like that. It's still a good soccer league and tennis, etc.

The conference will go on without you guys, it will still be good and it will still have the similar makeup it has now.

Wow bitter much? I've never needed your permission for anything, settle down. Who said the SoCon was falling apart you assume too much from very little typing. Get the chip off your shoulder and read what is written not what you wish to twist the words into. In fact I mentioned that JMU, Richmond, and other CAA schools would be good replacements instead of Samford about 3 years ago and was told the same thing by many here that I told you. Never knew the CAA invited Elon to join?

[Mntneer]

But the argument we make now. Davidson spends no where near what the SoCon football schools do on football which benefits their basketball program. I have no clue but I would guess their current budget would be close to the DIII level.

now the difference might be that they would be a kick ass DIII football team instead of a bad FCS team

Exactly. FCS is so easily dismissed because it's diluted by programs who have no intention of trying to compete in Div I football, yet they are forced to play at this level and to congregate in little sub-sub-divisions like the PFL. Personally, I wonder if it's too late to change the perception of FCS without some major restructuring of the entire division. But I would be interested to know how a sub-division without teams like Davidson would be received.

[CrackerRiley]

That's the length of the payment plan, 10 years to repay starting 6 months after graduation. I had about $15k in loans (used them for rent/bills as well as school).

But I was at App for 5.5 years and 4 summer schools. Believe I grad'd with right at 150 hours.

Hey, I'm currently on the exact same path as you... only 3 summer schools. xrolleyesx

[gophoenix]

Wow bitter much? I've never needed your permission for anything, settle down. Who said the SoCon was falling apart you assume too much from very little typing. Get the chip off your shoulder and read what is written not what you wish to twist the words into. In fact I mentioned that JMU, Richmond, and other CAA schools would be good replacements instead of Samford about 3 years ago and was told the same thing by many here that I told you. Never knew the CAA invited Elon to join?

The CAA didn't invite Elon to join. The CAA made a visit and expressed interest to both Elon and Liberty. They both told the CAA no unless they could offer a football home. Liberty was a package deal with us. That fell through, shortly after the SoCon robbery fell through; so they went after Towson, Delaware, Hofstra and Northeastern (or whoever that group was).

[OL FU]

The CAA didn't invite Elon to join. The CAA made a visit and expressed interest to both Elon and Liberty. They both told the CAA no unless they could offer a football home. Liberty was a package deal with us. That fell through, shortly after the SoCon robbery fell through; so they went after Towson, Delaware, Hofstra and Northeastern (or whoever that group was).

I am too tired to go back and look. I was responding to a post (maybe yours) that I think said teams like Davidson should be be made to play DIII football instead of FCS. I was making the point their perceived advantage in SoCon basketball would be no different than it is today. the only difference is that they would now have an advantage in DIII football due to better funding and name recognition than a lot of DIII programs. Remember the rule we are talking about is call the Dayton rule ( I think) for the exact same reason. So moving these teams to DIII might enhance the image of FCS football ( I doubt it, personally I think the occasional wins by FCS schools over FBS teams does more to enhance that image than anything) but their advantage in other sports would still exist and they would probably rule DIII unfairly over true DIII teams. The NCAA could make a rule that if you play football and are DI then you have to offer scholarships but that gets messy with the Ivies and PL giving equivalencies. Even if you could get around that, the rule would encourage more schools to drop football than step down a two divisionxtwocentsx

[OL FU]

Exactly. FCS is so easily dismissed because it's diluted by programs who have no intention of trying to compete in Div I football, yet they are forced to play at this level and to congregate in little sub-sub-divisions like the PFL. Personally, I wonder if it's too late to change the perception of FCS without some major restructuring of the entire division. But I would be interested to know how a sub-division without teams like Davidson would be received.

I am too tired to go back and look. I was responding to a post (maybe yours) that I think said teams like Davidson should be be made to play DIII football instead of FCS. I was making the point their perceived advantage in SoCon basketball would be no different than it is today. the only difference is that they would now have an advantage in DIII football due to better funding and name recognition than a lot of DIII programs. Remember the rule we are talking about is call the Dayton rule ( I think) for the exact same reason. So moving these teams to DIII might enhance the image of FCS football ( I doubt it, personally I think the occasional wins by FCS schools over FBS teams does more to enhance that image than anything) but their advantage in other sports would still exist and they would probably rule DIII unfairly over true DIII teams. The NCAA could make a rule that if you play football and are DI then you have to offer scholarships but that gets messy with the Ivies and PL giving equivalencies. Even if you could get around that, the rule would encourage more schools to drop football than step down a two division

PS, in my opinion FCS is dismissed because we aren't FBS. Just like the majority of non BCS teams are dismissed because they aren't BCS. I personally don't believe that requiring minimum scholarships would enhance the prestige of FCS one bit.

[elon77]

Believe many have tried to open such establishments in and around Boone for many years. No go. Its hard enough just to keep a bar open there.

Have to settle for something in TN. Like the classy places back in the day, such as: Mouse's Ear and Bottom's Up.

Bottom's Up, now I like that. Sounds like a real fine Gentlemen's Club.xnodxxnodx

[biggie]

Bottom's Up, now I like that. Sounds like a real fine Gentlemen's Club.xnodxxnodx
Being in Northeast TN any skrippers are scarey.

[biggie]

Hey, I'm currently on the exact same path as you... only 3 summer schools. xrolleyesx
I could blame it on switching majors, but I did that the summer before grading in Dec. More of I stayed drunk for the first 3 years and hated all the classes outside of the business school. I got my degree and minor though and lack 6-7 classes from 2 other degrees, but doubt I'll go back at this point. Work will pay for undergrad work though, just not my MBA.

[Mntneer]

I am too tired to go back and look. I was responding to a post (maybe yours) that I think said teams like Davidson should be be made to play DIII football instead of FCS. I was making the point their perceived advantage in SoCon basketball would be no different than it is today. the only difference is that they would now have an advantage in DIII football due to better funding and name recognition than a lot of DIII programs. Remember the rule we are talking about is call the Dayton rule ( I think) for the exact same reason. So moving these teams to DIII might enhance the image of FCS football ( I doubt it, personally I think the occasional wins by FCS schools over FBS teams does more to enhance that image than anything) but their advantage in other sports would still exist and they would probably rule DIII unfairly over true DIII teams. The NCAA could make a rule that if you play football and are DI then you have to offer scholarships but that gets messy with the Ivies and PL giving equivalencies. Even if you could get around that, the rule would encourage more schools to drop football than step down a two division

PS, in my opinion FCS is dismissed because we aren't FBS. Just like the majority of non BCS teams are dismissed because they aren't BCS. I personally don't believe that requiring minimum scholarships would enhance the prestige of FCS one bit.

Ok, yeah I misunderstood then. I thought you were agreeing with me xoopsx I had actually suggested that Davidson and company drop to Div II not III but I do see your point. Still, I think advantages like name recognition are pretty hard to quantify. I don't know what the solution is, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as many folks on here are. It's just frustrating to see FCS get as little respect as it does and it's certainly easy to pin a lot of that on the fact that we allow "loafers" like Davidson to languish in the subdivision.

[OL FU]

Ok, yeah I misunderstood then. I thought you were agreeing with me xoopsx I had actually suggested that Davidson and company drop to Div II not III but I do see your point. Still, I think advantages like name recognition are pretty hard to quantify. I don't know what the solution is, and I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as many folks on here are. It's just frustrating to see FCS get as little respect as it does and it's certainly easy to pin a lot of that on the fact that we allow "loafers" like Davidson to languish in the subdivision.


Well I kinda was and kinda wasn't. I wish Davidson played Fball in the SoCon (at the Socon Level). I just hate giving schools any more reason to drop football than they already have. I have some favorable thoughts on schools that don't fund being able to play football at a lower level I just know that the teams in the lower level wouldn't like it.

I may have it wrong but I think Dayton dominated DIII ( it may have been DII) for a while. and some of that domination came because of reputation but some came from funds provided by the a very good DI basket ball program. So the Dayton rule was put in place to stop DI teams from playing at a lower level in Football.

[Bulldog87]

I realize there are a lot of teams people would LIKE to see join the SoCon if slots were to open up. There are several fine private schools in NC & SC that would make a good fit and I think the best/biggest the SoCon could get as far as public schools are Coastal Carolina & Jax State. No school would leave the CAA or OVC to join, IMO, and it would be VERY difficult to get an HBCU to join.It wouldn't be as hard as you think to get SCSU to join the SoCon if the MEAC decides to leave the playoffs. AS a State fan I'd like to join and have ASU and GSU stay in the conference. GSU is less than 100 miles fro Orangeburg and wiould be a natural rival if we won a few games. ASU is in a beautiful part of the country and would be a great trip every other year. I love the MEAC but I think taht we'll leave unless the playoofs are retained with the pending expansion.

[DX Man]

It wouldn't be as hard as you think to get SCSU to join the SoCon if the MEAC decides to leave the playoffs. AS a State fan I'd like to join and have ASU and GSU stay in the conference. GSU is less than 100 miles fro Orangeburg and wiould be a natural rival if we won a few games. ASU is in a beautiful part of the country and would be a great trip every other year. I love the MEAC but I think taht we'll leave unless the playoofs are retained with the pending expansion.

What are the chances that the MEAC will opt out of the playoffs? I would like to see SCSU in the SoCon right now, but with the current SoCon leadership there is no chance of adding another state school. The only way the SoCon would add another state school is if a current school left and they were forced to. I think that SCSU will have a lot of atractive options in the near future if it plays its cards right.

[PaladinFan]

What are the chances that the MEAC will opt out of the playoffs? I would like to see SCSU in the SoCon right now, but with the current SoCon leadership there is no chance of adding another state school. The only way the SoCon would add another state school is if a current school left and they were forced to. I think that SCSU will have a lot of atractive options in the near future if it plays its cards right.

Got facts to back that up?

Best I can remember some of the schools that you are advocating to be SoCon institutions had no support from any SoCon school, not just private institutions.

[DX Man]

Got facts to back that up?

Best I can remember some of the schools that you are advocating to be SoCon institutions had no support from any SoCon school, not just private institutions.

Just look at who runs the SoCon and the profile of the recent additions. Have you got any facts to back up your statement about no support from any SoCon schools? Surely you don't think that ASU and GSU would actually choose a small private school with little fan support over a larger state school with good game day crowds.

[OL FU]

What are the chances that the MEAC will opt out of the playoffs? I would like to see SCSU in the SoCon right now, but with the current SoCon leadership there is no chance of adding another state school. The only way the SoCon would add another state school is if a current school left and they were forced to. I think that SCSU will have a lot of atractive options in the near future if it plays its cards right.

There has been talk of going to 14, if we do I would surprised if we don't try to add a state school. If we don't it will be because we couldn't find one.

Personally, I hope we don't add any more (at least in football). I don't want to be in a situation like the CAA where we don't play every school every year.

[PaladinFan]

Just look at who runs the SoCon and the profile of the recent additions. Have you got any facts to back up your statement about no support from any SoCon schools? Surely you don't think that ASU and GSU would actually choose a small private school with little fan support over a larger state school with good game day crowds.

Why wouldn't they? What rule says that state schools are only interested in adding in state schools?

And to show that you are just pulling stuff out of the air, refer to the 2008 attendance statistics for 2008. http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/football_records/Attendance/2008.pdf

you'll find that Samford (#59) had a higher attendance at home games than did Coastal Carolina (#62). While, granted, if CCU was in the SoCon their home attendance would likely increase. However, if you have the mental image of Coastal drawing thousands more a game than Samford, well...you're wrong.

You might also notice that Samford's attendance is right up there with the National Champion Richmond's. I don't see CAA fans from Delaware and Umass raising a big stink about their addition to the conference.

And just for good measure I'll leave you with a quote... “Samford will be a good addition to the quality institutions currently in our conference, and will expand the footprint of our conference into a new state.” --- Dr. Kenneth Peacock, chancellor, Appalachian State University

So yea, they actually did.

[Saint3333]

There has been talk of going to 14, if we do I would surprised if we don't try to add a state school. If we don't it will be because we couldn't find one.

Personally, I hope we don't add any more (at least in football). I don't want to be in a situation like the CAA where we don't play every school every year.

Agreed 9 is perfect for football.

As for the Peacock comment by Paladin, I have no idea who ASU would have liked to have added if it was someone other than Samford. But to take this comment as "fact" that ASU endorsed Samford over all others is a stretch. Could you see any Chancellor coming out and saying "We aren't excited that Team X will be joining the SoCon". You just don't say things like that.

[gophoenix]

Just look at who runs the SoCon and the profile of the recent additions. Have you got any facts to back up your statement about no support from any SoCon schools? Surely you don't think that ASU and GSU would actually choose a small private school with little fan support over a larger state school with good game day crowds.

See, and this is where your logic starts to fall apart....
1) There are more to the SoCon state schools than just App or GSU
2) Its not just about gameday atmosphere
3) Its not just about attendance

What it is about:
1) Who brings the most out of what is available
2) A full array of sports (Elon at 16, Samford at 17 vs SC State at 14)
3) Travel budgets, not just for SoCon schools but for the schools entering
4) Stability - Meaning, you want whoever you take to be in for the long haul
5) Academics - You don't want to let any school, especially schools that either have trouble graduating or have trouble meeting the APR
6) Facilities - You want the schools with at least good facilities for visiting teams to use while playing there
7) Reputation - Not just sports reputation, but the school's reputation
8) Market - Does it add any new markets, or does it infringe on existing recruiting basis or markets. It isn't just about does Samford or Elon give a good market, but getting the name of all our other schools into that market via them; and also opening up recruiting

So, this is where your logic is flawed.... who the hell do people like you want to take?
Most of the FCS schools in the south actually stepping up to the plate are either public schools which you don't want (ie WSSU, NCCU) or private schools. Private schools aren't the ones cutting sports left and right overall. Private schools aren't the ones taking public funding hits overall. And by and large, 1/3 as many FCS private schools have dropped scholarship D-I football as compared with public schools since 1990.

Of who is left, you guys don't want WSSU or NCCU, so it is a matter of wanting public schools like YOU want, not just public schools in general. Heck, my guess is
that you wouldn't want Western or UTC if they were on the table now (and not in the conference).

What public schools are out there?
SC State? Sure, football would be cool; but they lack in every other sport and only offer 14 conference sports. That doesn't bode well for stability in other sports.
EKU? The school that would've been on the table in the place of Elon had they already not had budget cuts back then...
Tennessee Tech? None of you see them as an option either.
Florida A&M? Sanctions Sanctions Sanctions
NC A&T? Their entire sports department has fallen apart as well as attendance.
Tennesse St? See the SC State issues
Austin Peay? Not an option to most of you.
James Madison? Would be nice, but, FBS ambitions don't give stability
Jax St? Would be nice, but again, FBS ambitions don't give stability
Savannah St? Hey, their public, do they meet your agenda?
Coastal? Would be cool to me, and add a lot, but, APR problems too.... and had sanctions in the 90s.

Who is left people? What do you want? There are no options that meet every ONE of your WHINER's criteria.

And the whole state school can't support entry of a private school is BUNK. GSU supported Elon, App didn't. Everyone supported Samford. App/Elon/UTC/WCU supported an ETSU waiver.... that's a mix of public and private in support of a public school. So give me a break. I just do not understand why some of your are so BENT on private schools. Heck, the ACC has 4 of them.

[DX Man]

See, and this is where your logic starts to fall apart....
1) There are more to the SoCon state schools than just App or GSU
2) Its not just about gameday atmosphere
3) Its not just about attendance

What it is about:
1) Who brings the most out of what is available
2) A full array of sports (Elon at 16, Samford at 17 vs SC State at 14)
3) Travel budgets, not just for SoCon schools but for the schools entering
4) Stability - Meaning, you want whoever you take to be in for the long haul
5) Academics - You don't want to let any school, especially schools that either have trouble graduating or have trouble meeting the APR
6) Facilities - You want the schools with at least good facilities for visiting teams to use while playing there
7) Reputation - Not just sports reputation, but the school's reputation
8) Market - Does it add any new markets, or does it infringe on existing recruiting basis or markets. It isn't just about does Samford or Elon give a good market, but getting the name of all our other schools into that market via them; and also opening up recruiting

So, this is where your logic is flawed.... who the hell do people like you want to take?
Most of the FCS schools in the south actually stepping up to the plate are either public schools which you don't want (ie WSSU, NCCU) or private schools. Private schools aren't the ones cutting sports left and right overall. Private schools aren't the ones taking public funding hits overall. And by and large, 1/3 as many FCS private schools have dropped scholarship D-I football as compared with public schools since 1990.

Of who is left, you guys don't want WSSU or NCCU, so it is a matter of wanting public schools like YOU want, not just public schools in general. Heck, my guess is
that you wouldn't want Western or UTC if they were on the table now (and not in the conference).

What public schools are out there?
SC State? Sure, football would be cool; but they lack in every other sport and only offer 14 conference sports. That doesn't bode well for stability in other sports.
EKU? The school that would've been on the table in the place of Elon had they already not had budget cuts back then...
Tennessee Tech? None of you see them as an option either.
Florida A&M? Sanctions Sanctions Sanctions
NC A&T? Their entire sports department has fallen apart as well as attendance.
Tennesse St? See the SC State issues
Austin Peay? Not an option to most of you.
James Madison? Would be nice, but, FBS ambitions don't give stability
Jax St? Would be nice, but again, FBS ambitions don't give stability
Savannah St? Hey, their public, do they meet your agenda?
Coastal? Would be cool to me, and add a lot, but, APR problems too.... and had sanctions in the 90s.

Who is left people? What do you want? There are no options that meet every ONE of your WHINER's criteria.

And the whole state school can't support entry of a private school is BUNK. GSU supported Elon, App didn't. Everyone supported Samford. App/Elon/UTC/WCU supported an ETSU waiver.... that's a mix of public and private in support of a public school. So give me a break. I just do not understand why some of your are so BENT on private schools. Heck, the ACC has 4 of them.

You seem to be hung up on stability. Do you actually think the SmallCon is currently stable? If you think that things aren't going to be changing in the near future, you would be mistaken. I'm sure the SoCon is great for Elon. There are a lot of other fine small schools that would fit in the SoCon well. There's no need to air dirt on the above schools. You may need them one of these days.

[gophoenix]

You seem to be hung up on stability. Do you actually think the SmallCon is currently stable? If you think that things aren't going to be changing in the near future, you would be mistaken. I'm sure the SoCon is great for Elon. There are a lot of other fine small schools that would fit in the SoCon well. There's no need to air dirt on the above schools. You may need them one of these days.

I think it is more stable than if the SoCon had taken 2 schools looking to move up to FBS soon, who if they left with App and GSU would leave the conference below the minimum number of school not only in football but in a few other sports too.

Who is airing dirt? It is simply stating the obvious.

I also see that people like you are too caught up on size to see any other side of any argument. Maybe that says something about you?

And so far, you haven't tried to argue any point, or even answer my questions, all you took was the bigger is better attitude, through some smack into and made an insult about it towards whatever "small schools" means.

xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[elcid83]

What does all of this talk have to do with the Southern Conference vs. the Big South? Why don't boys take all of this fussing outside?

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

[OL FU]

What does all of this talk have to do with the Southern Conference vs. the Big South? Why don't boys take all of this fussing outside?

Go Runnin' Bulldogs!

Because we can only talk about the BSouth for a short period of time:pxsmiley_wix