Chasing History: New York Mets Edition

[gmoney55]

I couldn't find whether this would be a first or how many times it has happened, but it's July 22 and the Mets have been shutout five times this month with only four home runs. Has any team, at least in the modern era, ever had more shutouts than home runs for an entire month? What's the low for just home runs in a full month at least in the past 20-30 years?

I'd put my money on the shutouts at this point....it's not like great pitchers have been doing this either. You'd have to watch late in the game to see this epic battle play out....the Mets haven't homered off a starting pitcher this month.

[bluehenbillk]

Wow, scary in the age of parks that are not hard to hit HR's in. Of course it speaks volumes to how bad the Mets really are. I can remember a few months ago when people were raving about how improved their pen would be.

[gmoney55]

Wow, scary in the age of parks that are not hard to hit HR's in. Of course it speaks volumes to how bad the Mets really are. I can remember a few months ago when people were raving about how improved their pen would be.

It has probably been the least of their problems....too bad Omar forgot to work on other areas of the team.

[93henfan]

The only counter is that Citi Field is a bit of a pitcher's park, with that Berlin Wall they built around the outfield. I guess they didn't want any Jeffrey Maier moments.

[whitey]

The bullpen is doing just fine. K-Rod has been awesome. Feliciano has been very good as had Stokes. Parnell went through a rough patch but is looking much better. Putz getting hurt stung a little bit and forced some guys to move around to different roles.

The problem is:
A) Offense. And that's due to injury of course. Beltran, Delgado and Reyes have all missed significant time. Minaya failed to ensure the Mets had quality depth at these positions and the offense has suffered badly as a result. It's basically David Wright and the Buffalo Bisons. It's not surprising to seem them score so few runs.

B) The starting pitching has also been suspect. Santana has had a couple bad starts but has been pretty much Santana-like the rest of the year. Pelfrey, predictably, has suffered from the Verducci effect much like Hamels. Oliver Perez has been even worse than anyone could have ever imagined plus he spent a lot of time on the DL. John Maine also has spent a lot of time on the DL. Livan Hernandez was basically pushed to be the team's #3 starter when he's best suited for being a long man. Tim Redding is LOL bad and Minaya should be fired simply for giving him a guaranteed contract. Redding probably would have been cut this week if the team's #6 starter Nieve didn't wind up on the DL.

The Mets need to start working towards 2010. They should trade all of their impending free agents and take whatever middle of the road prospects they can get for them just to add depth at the minor league level. Sheffield, Livan, Cora, Tatis, Schneider, Delgado, Wagner & Redding. Trade them all for whatever you can get. Let the young guys finish out the season and don't rush Reyes, Beltran or Maine back from injury.

Get everyone healthy and add a 1B and catcher during Free Agency. Exercise Putz's $8MM option and then trade him to a team looking for a closer. With everyone healthy and finding adequate replacements for Delgado and at catcher this team can easily compete again in 2010 without a significant overhaul.

[biggie]

I'm enjoying it. Especially with a few Met fan friends.

[gmoney55]

Well it should have been another shutout for the list last night, but a two-out misplayed liner turns into a triple and the Nats throw wide of third to allow the Mets one run. Maybe I should count that as a homerunxlolxxlolx But really they just continue to run into great pitching, I mean what team could get more than four hits off Craig Stammenxrolleyesx

[gmoney55]

The only counter is that Citi Field is a bit of a pitcher's park, with that Berlin Wall they built around the outfield. I guess they didn't want any Jeffrey Maier moments.

There's truth to that, but 1)they have more home runs at home than on the road this year, and 2) have played 12 road games and six home games this month. A lot of games have been bad but the performance in Philly with 3 total runs and not even facing Happ or Hamels was especially abysmal.

[GannonFan]

There's truth to that, but 1)they have more home runs at home than on the road this year, and 2) have played 12 road games and six home games this month. A lot of games have been bad but the performance in Philly with 3 total runs and not even facing Happ or Hamels was especially abysmal.

Blanton's a pretty good pitcher who's been really good over the past 6-8 starts and is a proven post-season reliable pitcher. But yet, not hitting Lopez or Moyer is really inexcusable.

[whitey]

It doesn't matter who they are facing. They can't hit anyone. This lineup is terrible right now. There is only one player who is hitting better than league average (.750ish OPS) and that's Wright. Sheffield was also, but he's been hurt and might go on the DL tomorrow.

And the injuries can't be the only excuse the team uses when it looks to re-tool this offseason. Even if Beltran, Reyes and Delgado never got hurt this team would only win 85-88ish games with this rotation. That might be enough for a WC spot, but I doubt it. Ah well, let's see what Niese has the rest of the way out. Maybe he can earn himself a spot in the rotation for 2010. I hope the Mets have enough room in the budget to bring in a first baseman, catcher, corner outfielder, a REAL #2 starter and a new setup man (assuming the Mets exercise Putz's option and then trade him).

[tribe_pride]

The Astros actually called me up to pitch versus the Mets tomorrow because they want to rest their starters for the Cubs series coming up next week.

And Whitey, you realize Nieve is out 6-8 weeks right? Hope its not too bad but he may not be able to pitch again this season or if so it'll only be 2 or 3 starts.

[gmoney55]

The Astros actually called me up to pitch versus the Mets tomorrow because they want to rest their starters for the Cubs series coming up next week.

And Whitey, you realize Nieve is out 6-8 weeks right? Hope its not too bad but he may not be able to pitch again this season or if so it'll only be 2 or 3 starts.

I think he said/meant Niese, who has actually been lighting up Triple-A for the past month or so.

[whitey]

Yeah, Niese if that's not what I typed.

[tribe_pride]

My bad. Maybe the Mets should package him in a deal for some great player whose contract is expiring this year. Mets are buyers, right?

Seriously though I hope they do what you said and become sellers and get some good young talent. They surely need it. No need to rush up any of the AAA guys this year. Maybe call him up in September with the expanded roster and give him a start or 2 then to see how he is doing then.

[Dukie95]

So glad there's another thread available to discuss this team.

[whitey]

LOL. The Mets certainly aren't buyers. I'm really hoping Minaya just said that as a motivational type thing. Which would make sense because he can't just come out and say, "We've thrown in the towel so we're gonna be sellers" to the media. Even if they can unload some of these veterans with expiring contracts I don't think they'll get much for them. But if they can add some depth with a AAA player here and a couple single A players there they should do it.

The only AAA player I want to see called up right now is Niese (Kunz & Gee need more time). At this point Niese has about 25 AAA starts under his belt plus another 5 MLB starts. I'd like to see him get another 8 or so MLB starts this season. He might be close and those 8-10 starts might give you a reliable enough sample size (with his AAA starts over the past 2 years) to anoint him your #5 starter for 2010. If you can find comfort there you can entertain the thought of packaging up Maine or Pelfrey with maybe Putz to a team looking for a closer this offseason to improve in other areas or maybe even bring back a legitimate #1 or #2 starter in return.

Santana, Legitimate #2, Pelfrey, Perez, Niese. I'd snap take that over: Santana, Pelfrey, Perez, Livan Hernandez, Redding.

[whitey]

So glad there's another thread available to discuss this team.

Yeah, I think there's two. I wonder if a mod can merge?

[Dukie95]

And the injuries can't be the only excuse the team uses when it looks to re-tool this offseason. Even if Beltran, Reyes and Delgado never got hurt this team would only win 85-88ish games with this rotation.

I don't agree. While I don't know if they'd be keeping up with the Phillies, they'd have to be a favorite for the WC. Their starting pitching hasn't been that terrible...or at least it isn't their problem today. Except for that 11-0 loss to Atlanta, pitching has done just enough to keep a healthy line-up in every game since the AS break.

I was just thinking yesterday what this lineup would look like without those injuries.

Reyes
Castillo
Beltran
Delgado
Wright
Sheffield
Francoeur (since indications are that trade would have happened anyway)
Catcher du Jour
Pitcher

Instead, we have this
No-Name CF
Castillo
No-Name 1B
Wright
Francoeur
No-Name LF
No-Name SS
Catcher du Jour
Pitcher

Granted Castillo and Francoeur are in both line-ups, but you can move Frenchy down to 7 instead of being forced into putting him into a crucial position.

That second lineup isn't scaring anyone. Just pitch around Wright and you can cruise through that line-up. And, you don't even have to do that. Since Wright isn't hitting any homers, let him get a single or a double with nobody on, you'll get the next guy out anyway.

[Hoyadestroya85]

I'm sorry, but no team in the major leagues would be able to win with their three of their best four hitters out.. Imagine how pedestrian the Phillies would be if Howard, Ibanez and Rollins/Werth/Victorino were out of the lineup for an extended period of time. They wouldn't just be pedestrian, they'd be Terrible. The fact that Sheffield hit as well as he did with no protection and no rest is nothing short of incredible. The Mets have the most depleted offense in the major leagues and they've actually performed rather admirably with what has happened.

[GannonFan]

I'm sorry, but no team in the major leagues would be able to win with their three of their best four hitters out.. Imagine how pedestrian the Phillies would be if Howard, Ibanez and Rollins/Werth/Victorino were out of the lineup for an extended period of time. They wouldn't just be pedestrian, they'd be Terrible. The fact that Sheffield hit as well as he did with no protection and no rest is nothing short of incredible. The Mets have the most depleted offense in the major leagues and they've actually performed rather admirably with what has happened.

Well, the fact that you can name that many Phillies that are that good (and yet still omitted Utley) starts to tell part of the difference between the Phils and the Mets - the Phils' lineup was always a much better lineup than the Mets and could better handle missing players. Heck, Ibanez was on the DL and Rollins was MIA for the first half of the season and the Phils did just fine. And with guys like Mayberry, Marson, Taylor and others in the high minor leagues (not to mention guys like Dobbs and Stairs on the bench), the Phils were always better placed to replace injured players than the Mets were.

It's all good though - the year before last the Mets assumed all they would have to do to win the divisions was to avoid collapsing in September, last year the Mets just assumed all they needed to do was to replace the bullpen and they would win the division, and now going into next year they'll just assume they need to stay healthy and the division's theirs. Seeing how the only guy the Phils lose going into next year is Myers, the Phils will welcome the Mets assuming they can remain the same. xlolx

[93henfan]

GannonFan, you should be ashamed of yourself for kicking these poor Mets fans while they're down.

[GannonFan]

GannonFan, you should be ashamed of yourself for kicking these poor Mets fans while they're down.

Just as I can never be ashamed of kicking nova fans, I will never be ashamed of kicking a New York/New Jersey fan, or a Dallas cowboy fan either. That's just how I roll. xlolx

[ngineer]

The bullpen is doing just fine. K-Rod has been awesome. Feliciano has been very good as had Stokes. Parnell went through a rough patch but is looking much better. Putz getting hurt stung a little bit and forced some guys to move around to different roles.

The problem is:
A) Offense. And that's due to injury of course. Beltran, Delgado and Reyes have all missed significant time. Minaya failed to ensure the Mets had quality depth at these positions and the offense has suffered badly as a result. It's basically David Wright and the Buffalo Bisons. It's not surprising to seem them score so few runs.
B) The starting pitching has also been suspect. Santana has had a couple bad starts but has been pretty much Santana-like the rest of the year. Pelfrey, predictably, has suffered from the Verducci effect much like Hamels. Oliver Perez has been even worse than anyone could have ever imagined plus he spent a lot of time on the DL. John Maine also has spent a lot of time on the DL. Livan Hernandez was basically pushed to be the team's #3 starter when he's best suited for being a long man. Tim Redding is LOL bad and Minaya should be fired simply for giving him a guaranteed contract. Redding probably would have been cut this week if the team's #6 starter Nieve didn't wind up on the DL.

The Mets need to start working towards 2010. They should trade all of their impending free agents and take whatever middle of the road prospects they can get for them just to add depth at the minor league level. Sheffield, Livan, Cora, Tatis, Schneider, Delgado, Wagner & Redding. Trade them all for whatever you can get. Let the young guys finish out the season and don't rush Reyes, Beltran or Maine back from injury.

Get everyone healthy and add a 1B and catcher during Free Agency. Exercise Putz's $8MM option and then trade him to a team looking for a closer. With everyone healthy and finding adequate replacements for Delgado and at catcher this team can easily compete again in 2010 without a significant overhaul.

The key to any good team is a good bench. The Phils showed that last year when Utley and Rollins went down for extended periods.

[Go...gate]

Well, the fact that you can name that many Phillies that are that good (and yet still omitted Utley) starts to tell part of the difference between the Phils and the Mets - the Phils' lineup was always a much better lineup than the Mets and could better handle missing players. Heck, Ibanez was on the DL and Rollins was MIA for the first half of the season and the Phils did just fine. And with guys like Mayberry, Marson, Taylor and others in the high minor leagues (not to mention guys like Dobbs and Stairs on the bench), the Phils were always better placed to replace injured players than the Mets were.

It's all good though - the year before last the Mets assumed all they would have to do to win the divisions was to avoid collapsing in September, last year the Mets just assumed all they needed to do was to replace the bullpen and they would win the division, and now going into next year they'll just assume they need to stay healthy and the division's theirs. Seeing how the only guy the Phils lose going into next year is Myers, the Phils will welcome the Mets assuming they can remain the same. xlolx

Got a feeling that if this continues (and it very likely will), there will be a lot of changes in store for the Mets, It will start with Tony Bernazard (what a disgrace) and go from there.

[Dukie95]

GF, you have some excellent points. The Phillies lineup was much better than the Mets going into the season, and likely would have been better prepared to handle such losses.

But, I think the Mets would take the Phillies injury/slump situation in a second. At least when the Phillies go on the 15 day DL, it's actually for 15 days.

[Dukie95]

The Mets injury problems run deep...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0XSrM-myjQ

AA Binghampton mascot crotches himself following a HR...

xlolx xlolx

[Hoyadestroya85]

I'm not saying that the Phillies didn't have a better lineup to start the year, but all i'm saying is that Chase Utley is a much different hitter without Howard and Ibanez/Burrell right after him. David Wright has similar offensive skills to Utley and Runs better but he's been a wreck without protection.

[whitey]

Mets win 2 in a row. Tony Bernazard fired! What the hell is going on? Ha.

[GannonFan]

I'm not saying that the Phillies didn't have a better lineup to start the year, but all i'm saying is that Chase Utley is a much different hitter without Howard and Ibanez/Burrell right after him. David Wright has similar offensive skills to Utley and Runs better but he's been a wreck without protection.


Wright's numbers aren't significantly different than last year, other than his strikeout to walk ratio and his HR #'s, and there's a lot more to his power outtage than who's in the lineup around him. Utley's always been a better clutch hitter than Wright, don't see any reason why that would change depending on who's around them in the lineup.

[gmoney55]

Only the Mets could botch a press conference to fire a team vice president.
Read below on today's press conference to fire Bernazard, from MetsBlog. I'll have to check this out on SNY tonight.

Minaya was clear to point out that Adam Rubin of the Daily News, who wrote the initial reports, had been lobbying the team for a job in the team’s player development department.

…seriously, though, the insinuation, which is pretty serious, as i hear it from omar, is that rubin wrote this story about tony to try and get tony fired, because he was seeking a job in the team’s player development department… which is an amazing accusation…

Rubin, in the audience, then told Minaya, to his face, that he is ‘despicable’ for alleging that he set out to ‘tear Tony down’ to take his job.

…this just took a fascinating turn… i have never heard of anything like this, which is about to make national attention, i would think, in terms of sports and media…

In a post to his media watchdog blog for Newsday, Neil Best called this press conference one of the “strangest in the history of New York media!”

[whitey]

Wright's numbers are different from last year. His slugging percentage is 80 points lower. He's running low on HRs and 2Bs it seems. Essentially his power numbers are way off. And his K:B ratio which you mentioned is much different. He's sort of making up for his low power numbers with a better average and OBP though.

I hate these type of arguments...you know the kind that are virtually impossible to prove. Can we all just agree that both Utley and Wright are awesome? And can we all agree that awesome players can be slightly less awesome when they don't have as much lineup protection?

[whitey]

gmoney- I'm listening to the FAN right now. This is hilarious. Only the Mets.

[gmoney55]

gmoney- I'm listening to the FAN right now. This is hilarious. Only the Mets.

Yea, I'm counting down the minutes until 5 so I can hear more on the latest embarrasment.

[Go...gate]

Bernazard gone. Thank goodness.

[blueballs]

And with guys like Mayberry, Marson, Taylor and others in the high minor leagues (not to mention guys like Dobbs and Stairs on the bench), the Phils were always better placed to replace injured players than the Mets were.



Taylor and Zack Grienke were HS teammates at Apopka, FL HS.

The Phils took a calculated risk and have come up aces with Taylor. I talked with at least half a dozen scouts who thought Taylor would be a top 5 overall pick (one compared him to Dave Parker) until it got out that he is diabetic just prior to the draft his SR year.

As a Braves fan I hate it but as somebody who knows Taylor and his family (great folks) I am tickled to death for him.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Wright's numbers are different from last year. His slugging percentage is 80 points lower. He's running low on HRs and 2Bs it seems. Essentially his power numbers are way off. And his K:B ratio which you mentioned is much different. He's sort of making up for his low power numbers with a better average and OBP though.

I hate these type of arguments...you know the kind that are virtually impossible to prove. Can we all just agree that both Utley and Wright are awesome? And can we all agree that awesome players can be slightly less awesome when they don't have as much lineup protection?

That's exactly what i was saying..

[blukeys]

Are we comparing Utley and Wright? Utley defensively is a much better player at his position than Wright.

As for offense, not only does Utley benefit from having Howard hitting behind him, he also gets the benefit of Rollins and Victorino hitting ahead of him. Rollins was in a slump until July but he has come around. Would Wright do better in a Phillies lineup??

Duhh??? Who wouldn't!!!!! Look at Ibanez's numbers. The Phillies have the best 1 thru 6 batters in baseball. The Mets even when healthy aren't there.

Buster Olney on ESPN called Utley the best 2nd basemen in all of baseball. The only folks who disagree are those who don't get to see him on a regular basis.

[whitey]

No, we're not comparing Utley and Wright. The only thing to really discuss is whether or not the "lineup protection effect" is real or not. I have absolutely zero numbers to back this up but I happen to think it does have an effect. I don't know if a sabrematician has done a study on that or not and what the results were. I'd be interested to see what the results were if one was done, even if I'm proven wrong.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Are we comparing Utley and Wright? Utley defensively is a much better player at his position than Wright.

As for offense, not only does Utley benefit from having Howard hitting behind him, he also gets the benefit of Rollins and Victorino hitting ahead of him. Rollins was in a slump until July but he has come around. Would Wright do better in a Phillies lineup??

Duhh??? Who wouldn't!!!!! Look at Ibanez's numbers. The Phillies have the best 1 thru 6 batters in baseball. The Mets even when healthy aren't there.

Buster Olney on ESPN called Utley the best 2nd basemen in all of baseball. The only folks who disagree are those who don't get to see him on a regular basis.

Hmm.. How many gold gloves does Utley have? Also, Utley benefits from a MUCH smaller ballpark with his hitting. This will be the first season in a while where Wright won't hit 30 HRs and drive in 100 Runs.

[UNHWildCats]

there both damn good players.... can we just leave it at that

[tribe_pride]

Mets win 2 in a row. Tony Bernazard fired! What the hell is going on? Ha.

Don't look now. That's 3 in a row.

[Hoyadestroya85]

What a day!

[blukeys]

No, we're not comparing Utley and Wright. The only thing to really discuss is whether or not the "lineup protection effect" is real or not. I have absolutely zero numbers to back this up but I happen to think it does have an effect. I don't know if a sabrematician has done a study on that or not and what the results were. I'd be interested to see what the results were if one was done, even if I'm proven wrong.

Of course the "lineup protection effect" is real. I think Wright is overrated defensively but I would love to have him in my lineup. Wright in the Phillies lineup would already have 20 Home runs.

[Hoyadestroya85]

You Gotta Believe?

[UNHWildCats]

http://large.snazal.com/?0803278225

[Dukie95]

You Gotta Believe?

Not yet. As Eric Simon of Amazin' Avenue said:


Yup, four straight wins with Johan Santana going on Wednesday. It could all come crashing down in a heap of smoldering wreckage at any time, but the games have actually been worth watching these last few days which is something I couldn't say for most of July.

My money's on the smoldering wreckage.

[whitey]

This is too funny: Fanhouse Mets Chatroom (http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2009/07/28/the-dugout-omar-badness/)

[gmoney55]

Omar Minaya will speak with reporters today in Citi Field at 11 am.

Oh boy......

[UNHWildCats]

Omar Minaya will speak with reporters today in Citi Field at 11 am.

Oh boy......
get the popcorn ready, turn on the DVR and get youtube loaded in the browser :p

[tribe_pride]

So what did he say?

[gmoney55]

So what did he say?

Nothing reallly, he talked to Rubin, apologized, moving forward, still working towards the deadline, etc...

[whitey]

5 in a row!!???!!??? What the f---? :-)

[gmoney55]

5 in a row!!???!!??? What the f---? :-)

Seriously....close to enough to the WC to at least make me say Let's Go Phillies this weekend!

[Seahawks Fan]

Johan pitched like Johan today. And timely hitting by the Mets.