Nichols among those added to Payton Award watch list

[CSN Log]

07-21-2009 02:23 PM

Nichols among those added to Payton Award watch list

Philadelphia, PA (Sports Network) - Record-setting Eastern Washington quarterback Matt Nichols is one of four players added to the updated watch list for the Walter Payton Award, bestowed annually upon the top player in FCS.

This marks the second straight year that Nichols, who has piled up 9,376 yards of total offense in his previous three seasons, was named to the preseason watch list for the honor.

Also added were Massachusetts running back Tony Nelson, McNeese State running back Todd Pendland and Jacksonville State quarterback Ryan Perrilloux.

Read more ... (http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php/2009/07/21/nichols-among-those-added-to-payton-awar?blog=2#more5217)

[TexasTerror]

And there's Pendland! Does anyone feel that Karrington Bush of TXST should be added to this list?

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Yeah Nichols!

[Redbirdz]

Yea Perrilloux.

[grizband]

Hopefully Mariani is able to continue last year's success and make the 2009 Payton List.

[I-AA Fan]

I am going to ask a dumb question & vent a little:

Are these names being trickled in on purpose, or are names actually changing. If names are being changed ...don't do it until they play. If they are not, and just trickling in ...just release the dang names already, then leave it alone until August 31. Also, why do we have a watch list prior to any games being played? Accomplishments in previous years should not be even a minor consideration for who wins (the problem with personal opinion voting); so does a watch list this early not defeat the purpose?

Sorry ...I am done venting.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

I am going to ask a dumb question & vent a little:

Are these names being trickled in on purpose, or are names actually changing. If names are being changed ...don't do it until they play. If they are not, and just trickling in ...just release the dang names already, then leave it alone until August 31. Also, why do we have a watch list prior to any games being played? Accomplishments in previous years should not be even a minor consideration for who wins (the problem with personal opinion voting); so does a watch list this early not defeat the purpose?

Sorry ...I am done venting.

They have a watch list because those are the best candidates. They drop players off the list as the year progresses, based upon their play, until they have a final three at the end of the year, then they vote.

[Green26]

Marc Mariani, the Griz receiver, should be on this list. He got screwed.

He's a first team pre-season all-american. He's one of the top kick returners in the country. He made some all-american lists last year.

He had the 4th most receiving yards in I-AA last year. He had the 3rd most yards per catch (18.96) (behind two receivers who didn't have many catches). He was 4th in the nation last year in punt returns (16.88 per return), with 2 returned for TD's. He averaged 22.9 per returns in kickoffs--with teams often kicking away from him. He had 17 TD's (15 receptions and 2 returns). 13th most TD's scored last year.

He runs 4.37 in the 40. His most recent 40 a few weeks ago, was 4.38. He has great hands. He's made some NFL lists as small college receivers and NFL prospects to watch.

He's poised to have a big year--as a receiver, returner and overall playmaker.

Total oversight by the selectors. I don't know what they were thinking.

[bleedblue]

Marc Mariani, the Griz receiver, should be on this list. He got screwed.

He's a first team pre-season all-american. He's one of the top kick returners in the country. He made some all-american lists last year.

He had the 4th most receiving yards in I-AA last year. He had the 3rd most yards per catch (18.96) (behind two receivers who didn't have many catches). He was 4th in the nation last year in punt returns (16.88 per return), with 2 returned for TD's. He averaged 22.9 per returns in kickoffs--with teams often kicking away from him. He had 17 TD's (15 receptions and 2 returns). 13th most TD's scored last year.

He runs 4.37 in the 40. His most recent 40 a few weeks ago, was 4.38. He has great hands. He's made some NFL lists as small college receivers and NFL prospects to watch.

He's poised to have a big year--as a receiver, returner and overall playmaker.

Total oversight by the selectors. I don't know what they were thinking.



I would agree! However when he goes to the NFL combine I want to see what his time is in the forty. He looks very quick and elusive but not a sub 4.4 guy. Although it might be a TV thing. Never saw him play in person. If your QB play is solid he will be on this list.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Marc Mariani, the Griz receiver, should be on this list. He got screwed.

He's a first team pre-season all-american. He's one of the top kick returners in the country. He made some all-american lists last year.

He had the 4th most receiving yards in I-AA last year. He had the 3rd most yards per catch (18.96) (behind two receivers who didn't have many catches). He was 4th in the nation last year in punt returns (16.88 per return), with 2 returned for TD's. He averaged 22.9 per returns in kickoffs--with teams often kicking away from him. He had 17 TD's (15 receptions and 2 returns). 13th most TD's scored last year.

He runs 4.37 in the 40. His most recent 40 a few weeks ago, was 4.38. He has great hands. He's made some NFL lists as small college receivers and NFL prospects to watch.

He's poised to have a big year--as a receiver, returner and overall playmaker.

Total oversight by the selectors. I don't know what they were thinking.

Mariani ran 4.49 or 4.50 from what I was given by my NFL sources.

One your point about him I would agree with you and would have taken him over Reynolds. I would not be surprised if there are people around Montana who preferred Reynolds and thus he was selected. TSN likely ranked Reynolds higher and we know that it is very tough to get 2 players on the list so it just came down to a choice and they chose Reynolds. We have a full season to play and if a player truly deserves it I trust Coulson will put that deserving player on the list.

[Green26]

SmallCollege, your sources are wrong.

I was sitting next to the timer several weeks ago when Mariani ran the 4.38. I know for a fact that he has run a 4.37. He has run under 4.4 multiple times. When he goes over, he's at 4.41 or so. Mariani never runs as slow as the times you've mentioned.

Sources? Jeez, total BS.

[smallcollegefbfan]

SmallCollege, your sources are wrong.

I was sitting next to the timer several weeks ago when Mariani ran the 4.38. I know for a fact that he has run a 4.37. He has run under 4.4 multiple times. When he goes over, he's at 4.41 or so. Mariani never runs as slow as the times you've mentioned.

Sources? Jeez, total BS.

Who timed the 4.38? If it was for coaches then I would not be surprised that it was faster than what NFL teams have.

He looks like a 4.40-4.43 guy on film and usually players run slower for the NFL than they do for coaches. I was given a 4.50 on him from NFL scouts and figured that low 4.4 or maybe high 4.3 could be possible next spring.

Just for the record, when I say I have sources who gave me a time I am talking about a NFL team or combine time. I don't use coaches times because many schools time differently and I know that every scouts clocks players the exact same way under the same guidelines for where to stop the clock and so forth.

You would be surprised how many players claim to run a 4.3 and they don't. I would say 30 percent of those who think they run 4.3 actually do. As of now Mariani is consider a sub 4.5 guy and hopefully he will shed time and run in the 4.3 range at his senior pro day. As I said in above posts, I like his game and think he could run much faster than what NFL teams have him at now.

[mtgrizfan4life]

What good is a fast 40 without pads? You have to maintain as much of that speed as possible with pads on. Should they not time these guys with pads on? Some are burners without pads, but not strong enough to keep that speed with pads. One of my old coaches tested this. Bigger stonger guys did not lose as much speed with pads. A few of the faster guys dropped their time drastically with pads on. I think there is some truth to that for some players. He liked to know as he termed it "what their game speed was?"

As for timed 40's, I too take the NFL scouted times listed by the pros over times coming from within any program. With that said, I think Mariani has ran a few sub 4.4's. I just think he cannot do it consistently. I hope come NFL scouting time, he proves me wrong. Usually the scouted times are about .05 slower than times done by those associated with the college teams.

[Green26]

SmallCollege, you don't know what you're talking about. I don't know whether you're making this source stuff up, or what.

Yes, college coaches are the ones who generally time college players. At least at Montana, the strength coach does the periodic timing of 40's and uses electronic equipment. While there are different types of electronic equipment, this one involved electronic sensors (looking like little cameras, mounted on both sides of the running area) at the start and finish, as well as various intervals for splits. The electronic equipment transfers to a device, so that all times can be observed and recorded.

You can pooh pooh Mariani's time all you want, but the fact remains that you weren't there, didn't observe his run, the situation or the equipment, didn't talk to the timer, didn't talk to Mariani and don't know what you're talking about. Just because you read something on an Internet site, doesn't make it right. Internet sites, including one with NFL names, are notoriously wrong and out of date--until after the pro days and combines.

[crossfire07]

As for timed 40's, I too take the NFL scouted times listed by the pros over times coming from within any program. With that said, I think Mariani has ran a few sub 4.4's. I just think he cannot do it consistently. I hope come NFL scouting time, he proves me wrong. Usually the scouted times are about .05 slower than times done by those associated with the college teams.

I agree with you. NFL scouted times are more reliable since they are unbiased since they don't have a dog in the fight if you will. a players coach on the other hand has all the reason in the world to inflate a time and if someone will allow themselves to not believe that then...... nevermind.

[smallcollegefbfan]

SmallCollege, you don't know what you're talking about. I don't know whether you're making this source stuff up, or what.

Yes, college coaches are the ones who generally time college players. At least at Montana, the strength coach does the periodic timing of 40's and uses electronic equipment. While there are different types of electronic equipment, this one involved electronic sensors (looking like little cameras, mounted on both sides of the running area) at the start and finish, as well as various intervals for splits. The electronic equipment transfers to a device, so that all times can be observed and recorded.

You can pooh pooh Mariani's time all you want, but the fact remains that you weren't there, didn't observe his run, the situation or the equipment, didn't talk to the timer, didn't talk to Mariani and don't know what you're talking about. Just because you read something on an Internet site, doesn't make it right. Internet sites, including one with NFL names, are notoriously wrong and out of date--until after the pro days and combines.

You are definitely right that I was not there when he ran but I did not read this on a website. I don't think you understand what I am saying.

Let me explain what I am talking about. During the spring 2 NFL scouts (one from each scouting service the NFL uses) came to Montana to measure and time the players. They did that, watched film, talked to players and coaches, etc. and then they gave the players an early projection grade based on the information they obtained.

I have the reports that the scouts filed to all the teams who subscribe (pay 15k per year) to.

As usual, Montana has several players that are on the NFL watch list. Marc Mariani was the highest rated player and he measured at 6'0 1/2, 181 pounds, and ran a verified 4.50 40. TE Dan Beaudin measured at 6'4 1/4, 248 pounds, and did not run but was estimated at 4.85. FS Shann Schillinger ran at 4.40 at 6'0 1/8, 198 pounds and was given the same grade as Mariani. OT Levi Horn was projected as a guard and measured at 6'6 5/8, 317 pounds, and ran a 5.47. TE Steve Pfahler was 6'3 7/8, 244 pounds, and ran a 4.87 verified. There were two more players graded but they were so low that they really have no shot at the combine unless they really tear it up this year.

For the record Mariani, Beaudin, and Schillinger all got high priority free agent grades, meaning they could easily be upgraded enough to be invited to the NFL Scouting Combine. Personally, I think Mariani should and will be invited as long as he has a great year.

As the other Griz fan and Crossfire said, I would and do always take the time of a NFL scout over that of a coach simply because I know coaches time differently and all scouts use the exact same method. It is just like where I take the combine time of a player over the one of a pro day because pro days are done at different places and everyone runs for the same timer on the same field at the combine.

All I am saying is that as of now Mariani is considered a high 4.4 to low 4.5 guy by the NFL. He could very well shock everyone and run a 4.38 at the combine. W&M CB Derek Cox was considered a 4.55-4.60 until his pro day where he ran a 4.39.

[mtgrizfan4life]

You are definitely right that I was not there when he ran but I did not read this on a website. I don't think you understand what I am saying.

Let me explain what I am talking about. During the spring 2 NFL scouts (one from each scouting service the NFL uses) came to Montana to measure and time the players. They did that, watched film, talked to players and coaches, etc. and then they gave the players an early projection grade based on the information they obtained.

I have the reports that the scouts filed to all the teams who subscribe (pay 15k per year) to.

As usual, Montana has several players that are on the NFL watch list. Marc Mariani was the highest rated player and he measured at 6'0 1/2, 181 pounds, and ran a verified 4.50 40. TE Dan Beaudin measured at 6'4 1/4, 248 pounds, and did not run but was estimated at 4.85. FS Shann Schillinger ran at 4.40 at 6'0 1/8, 198 pounds and was given the same grade as Mariani. OT Levi Horn was projected as a guard and measured at 6'6 5/8, 317 pounds, and ran a 5.47. TE Steve Pfahler was 6'3 7/8, 244 pounds, and ran a 4.87 verified. There were two more players graded but they were so low that they really have no shot at the combine unless they really tear it up this year.

For the record Mariani, Beaudin, and Schillinger all got high priority free agent grades, meaning they could easily be upgraded enough to be invited to the NFL Scouting Combine. Personally, I think Mariani should and will be invited as long as he has a great year.

As the other Griz fan and Crossfire said, I would and do always take the time of a NFL scout over that of a coach simply because I know coaches time differently and all scouts use the exact same method. It is just like where I take the combine time of a player over the one of a pro day because pro days are done at different places and everyone runs for the same timer on the same field at the combine.

All I am saying is that as of now Mariani is considered a high 4.4 to low 4.5 guy by the NFL. He could very well shock everyone and run a 4.38 at the combine. W&M CB Derek Cox was considered a 4.55-4.60 until his pro day where he ran a 4.39.


Very well put. I am convinced.

[catbob]

Don't argue with a Griz fan! They won't concede until you they have given them the praise they are seeking. If he saw it first-hand then by Griz don't even think about disagreeing!

Reading these message boards today you would think that not even Paris Hilton gets screwed as much as the Griz do.

:)

I kid, I kid.

Mariani deserves to be on the list, no doubt.

[mtgrizfan4life]

Most GRIZ fans will not argue, a few even know how to respectfully agree to disagree. There are a few (like any fan base) that are convinced they can never be wrong, their opinion is the only one that counts, they are know all and be all. They do not care what anyone else thinks, and God forbid anyone not believe them or not agree with them.

Seriously, is it not amazing how a good percentage of players run slightly slower when timed by scouts than by those involved with their program? Is it not the evaluations, reports, and opinions of NFL scouts and personnel that determine a player's future?

Too bad these guys do not just take coaches and fans word for things, then all these guys could be projected 1st rounders and all be sub 4.4 guys. All the bigs could get in 40 reps in the bench, they all could lift 500 plus lbs.

At the very least, the NFL scouts set fans straight as to how talented, fast, quick, strong, and good these guys really are. I appreciate they keep our fanbases in line.

As for Mariani, I feel his talent is that to be a candidate for this reward. I was surprised to see him not on the preseason list. After thinking about it, I understand why he is not on the list. (1) Not many teams get more than 1 player on the list. (2) The GRIZ offense and depth do not really favor a WR putting up huge numbers. (3) He will have a new QB running the offense. (4) Chase Reynolds had a monster 2nd 1/2 of the season last year. The GRIZ system favors RB's putting up huge numbers over WR's.

I will not be surprised though if Mariani duplicates his numbers from last year, and ends up on this list as the season progresses.

[Silenoz]

Marc Mariani, the Griz receiver, should be on this list. He got screwed.

He's a first team pre-season all-american. He's one of the top kick returners in the country. He made some all-american lists last year.

He had the 4th most receiving yards in I-AA last year. He had the 3rd most yards per catch (18.96) (behind two receivers who didn't have many catches). He was 4th in the nation last year in punt returns (16.88 per return), with 2 returned for TD's. He averaged 22.9 per returns in kickoffs--with teams often kicking away from him. He had 17 TD's (15 receptions and 2 returns). 13th most TD's scored last year.

He runs 4.37 in the 40. His most recent 40 a few weeks ago, was 4.38. He has great hands. He's made some NFL lists as small college receivers and NFL prospects to watch.

He's poised to have a big year--as a receiver, returner and overall playmaker.

Total oversight by the selectors. I don't know what they were thinking.

I just noticed that he wasn't even a unanimous pick for the All-Conference team...

xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

That has to be sour grapes from one of the teams he burned

[smallcollegefbfan]

Most GRIZ fans will not argue, a few even know how to respectfully agree to disagree. There are a few (like any fan base) that are convinced they can never be wrong, their opinion is the only one that counts, they are know all and be all. They do not care what anyone else thinks, and God forbid anyone not believe them or not agree with them.

Seriously, is it not amazing how a good percentage of players run slightly slower when timed by scouts than by those involved with their program? Is it not the evaluations, reports, and opinions of NFL scouts and personnel that determine a player's future?

Too bad these guys do not just take coaches and fans word for things, then all these guys could be projected 1st rounders and all be sub 4.4 guys. All the bigs could get in 40 reps in the bench, they all could lift 500 plus lbs.

At the very least, the NFL scouts set fans straight as to how talented, fast, quick, strong, and good these guys really are. I appreciate they keep our fanbases in line.

As for Mariani, I feel his talent is that to be a candidate for this reward. I was surprised to see him not on the preseason list. After thinking about it, I understand why he is not on the list. (1) Not many teams get more than 1 player on the list. (2) The GRIZ offense and depth do not really favor a WR putting up huge numbers. (3) He will have a new QB running the offense. (4) Chase Reynolds had a monster 2nd 1/2 of the season last year. The GRIZ system favors RB's putting up huge numbers over WR's.

I will not be surprised though if Mariani duplicates his numbers from last year, and ends up on this list as the season progresses.

There are fans like that everywhere. Always remember, just because you saw a player get timed does not mean he was timed correctly, especially when the NFL is doing the timing.

For the record, I am not saying Mariani can't run a 4.38 but that he ran 4.50 for scouts. I hope he runs a 4.38 in the postseason because that would get him drafted for sure. Had he ran a 4.38 for scouts he would have a high enough grade to get in the combine right now instead of needing to heavily impress to be upgraded enough to get in.

[mtgrizfan4life]

I am not sure which website I seen it all, but Colt Anderson was a 4.4 flat guy. What did the scouts get his time at? Around 4.5 I believe.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I am not sure which website I seen it all, but Colt Anderson was a 4.4 flat guy. What did the scouts get his time at? Around 4.5 I believe.

Yes Colt ran a 4.53 and 4.56 for scouts at his senior pro day. He was estimated as a 4.65 guy by scouts as a junior so he either improved his speed or they were .10 off.

[BEAR]

Be careful what you post here. Do you not know, he too will be a GRIZ xthumbsupx

That's fine. With the almighty pigs in this state, do you think we really had a chance to get this one? xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[Hoyadestroya85]

Really no point in mentioning Mariani.. No way he wins without a Finneranesque season on the best team in the country with a weak group behind him. In my opinion, A running back is gonna win the award this year for the first time in a while.

[Green26]

Colt Anderson was never a 4.4 guy. That statement is just plain wrong. Colt's best 40 at UM was 4.44. Colt had run a 4.51 prior to that. The UM coaches had said he was capable of going under 4.5, and he did. Colt has strong legs, was squatting about 525 in college, and became very explosive while at UM.

It makes me laugh that some small time guy, who has never seen Mariani run a 40, can say that Mariani is more of a 4.5 guy, because he has "sources" and he has supposedly seen Mariani play games on tv and maybe in person at Chatty. That is too funny.

It is indisputable that Mariani ran a 4.38 40 several weeks ago. You can say the electronic equipment was faulty, the testing was faulty and he won't run that fast for the scouts, but it is still indisputable that Mariani ran a 4.38 that day. It's just a fact. The person administering the test didn't make it up, didn't lie, and didn't change the time.

[jmufan999]

SmallCollege, your sources are wrong.

I was sitting next to the timer several weeks ago when Mariani ran the 4.38. I know for a fact that he has run a 4.37. He has run under 4.4 multiple times. When he goes over, he's at 4.41 or so. Mariani never runs as slow as the times you've mentioned.

Sources? Jeez, total BS.

well, i can tell you this. i've seen both Pat White and Mariani play live, with my own two eyes (not on TV, in other words). Pat White ran a 4.5 (twice) at the combine.

trust me when i tell you that Mariani doesn't have Pat White speed.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Colt Anderson was never a 4.4 guy. That statement is just plain wrong. Colt's best 40 at UM was 4.44. Colt had run a 4.51 prior to that. The UM coaches had said he was capable of going under 4.5, and he did. Colt has strong legs, was squatting about 525 in college, and became very explosive while at UM.

It makes me laugh that some small time guy, who has never seen Mariani run a 40, can say that Mariani is more of a 4.5 guy, because he has "sources" and he has supposedly seen Mariani play games on tv and maybe in person at Chatty. That is too funny.

It is indisputable that Mariani ran a 4.38 40 several weeks ago. You can say the electronic equipment was faulty, the testing was faulty and he won't run that fast for the scouts, but it is still indisputable that Mariani ran a 4.38 that day. It's just a fact. The person administering the test didn't make it up, didn't lie, and didn't change the time.

You don't have to see a player run a 40 to know. If you trust who timed them, in this case NFL scouts, then you know the 40 was done accurately. By your statement you are saying that you believe coaches over NFL scouts and if so that is fine.

Okay you don't understand what I am saying here. Mariani perhaps ran a 4.38 by that person's way of timing but their way is not the way of the NFL, which is the most accurate way outside of electronic timing, and that is why I am saying that I go by the 4.50 he ran for NFL scouts.

He probably did run a 4.38 but are you willing to bet that he runs a 4.38 or better at the combine?

[mtgrizfan4life]

I cannot speak for others here, I am denying rather he did or did not run that time, and I do believe he is capable of sub 4.4. What people are saying is they will go by what the scouts time him or any player at as his speed. After all those are the times that will determine where his or player's career goes.

Does someone getting an A on report cards periodically make them a true "A"/4.0 student just because they did it a few times? It means they are capable of being an "A" student, but are not listed considered an "A" student until all the grades are consistently that. With that reasoning, we all would be "A" students overall once we got our first "A", despite how bad we did on other tests and report cards. Hell we would all be Ivy League accepted and Rhodes Scholars.

For any player to be considered a true sub 4.4 guy, that athlete has to do it consistently, and for his sake, hope to perform sub 4.4 when it is on the line for the scouts. A good percentage of players consistently run slower for scouts than they did for their coaches.

If given player runs a 4.38 for scouts, then he will be listed that way. If he runs a 4.4 for them, once again, he will be listed that way. Also consider most people (posters) are skeptics when they hear something like that, and for them to believe it 100% without doubt, they have to witness the feat 1st hand, or see that feat listed from someone they consider more expert than random joe on a message board. So do not take it personally when people ? the legitimacy of any 40 time or lift.

Great, Mariani is capable of running sub 4.4, that is good for him. It will be better for him, if and when he does it with scouts to witness it, for his sake I hope he does just that.

[smallcollegefbfan]

well, i can tell you this. i've seen both Pat White and Mariani play live, with my own two eyes (not on TV, in other words). Pat White ran a 4.5 (twice) at the combine.

trust me when i tell you that Mariani doesn't have Pat White speed.

Very good way to look at it. White is an excellent example. He is not as quick as White by far. His speed is not far off but still not quite as fast.

White had a low hand time of 4.55 at the combine and a high time of 4.60. I don't have the electronic time on him but it was likely in the low 4.6s. and I believe Mariani will run 4.50-4.55 hand time and 4.58-4.63 electronic time at the combine. Mariani is a very good player who I think should get drafted but he does not have blazing speed. He has enough speed to get by but not blazing speed.

For the record, the only reason I am pointing all of this out is because less than half the people who say they have run a 4.3 for someone else run that for NFL teams.

Just so everyone can put this into perspective of how important running a fast time at the combine is Boldin ran a 4.71.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I cannot speak for others here, I am denying rather he did or did not run that time, and I do believe he is capable of sub 4.4. What people are saying is they will go by what the scouts time him or any player at as his speed. After all those are the times that will determine where his or player's career goes.

Does someone getting an A on report cards periodically make them a true "A"/4.0 student just because they did it a few times? It means they are capable of being an "A" student, but are not listed considered an "A" student until all the grades are consistently that. With that reasoning, we all would be "A" students overall once we got our first "A", despite how bad we did on other tests and report cards. Hell we would all be Ivy League accepted and Rhodes Scholars.

For any player to be considered a true sub 4.4 guy, that athlete has to do it consistently, and for his sake, hope to perform sub 4.4 when it is on the line for the scouts. A good percentage of players consistently run slower for scouts than they did for their coaches.

If given player runs a 4.38 for scouts, then he will be listed that way. If he runs a 4.4 for them, once again, he will be listed that way. Also consider most people (posters) are skeptics when they hear something like that, and for them to believe it 100% without doubt, they have to witness the feat 1st hand, or see that feat listed from someone they consider more expert than random joe on a message board. So do not take it personally when people ? the legitimacy of any 40 time or lift.

Great, Mariani is capable of running sub 4.4, that is good for him. It will be better for him, if and when he does it with scouts to witness it, for his sake I hope he does just that.

As you do, I hope Mariani runs sub 4.4s but as I said before I think based on how he ran last year that he will run a 4.46-4.50 hand held and 4.57-4.62 electronic. If he looks faster this year I will adjust my estimates but based on what I thought he ran (4.45-4.47) and he ran a 4.49 or 4.50 for scouts, I feel pretty good about my estimates.

[Green26]

I think it's funny that someone like SmallCollege would automactically think timings by pro scout/services are accurate, and other timings, including by college strength coaches, aren't. Mariani's situation is good example of how pro scout/services timing can be off too.

NFLDraftScout has 3 times listed for Mariani: 4.42, 4.5 and 4.57. Those happen to be the 3 times that he ran that day. Note the large variation in the times. Each of those 3 runs was also timed electronically by Montana coaches. All were in the low 4.4's, which is what Mariani has consistently run for several years. At the conclusion of the session, the "professionals" told Mariani that they had had trouble getting accurate times for him, probably because of how he swings his arms. They were impressed with his running. After that session, Mariani's rating as a receiver made a nice jump.

Okay, who do you think made the accurate timing that day? The coaches electronic timing, consistently in the low 4.4's? Or, the "professionals" timing, which included a low 4.4 and a variation of .15 (on the same day and same surface, with the same timing device and timers)?

Also, SmallCollege has provided another example of how Colt Anderson's pro day times were faster than what the scouting services had been saying previously. Additionally, it should be noted that Anderson was still hurting from a bad ankle injury at time of his pro day in March. I assume this cost him a bit of time.

[wideright82]

I think it's funny that someone like SmallCollege would automactically think timings by pro scout/services are accurate, and other timings, including by college strength coaches, aren't. Mariani's situation is good example of how pro scout/services timing can be off too.

NFLDraftScout has 3 times listed for Mariani: 4.42, 4.5 and 4.57. Those happen to be the 3 times that he ran that day. Note the large variation in the times. Each of those 3 runs was also timed electronically by Montana coaches. All were in the low 4.4's, which is what Mariani has consistently run for several years. At the conclusion of the session, the "professionals" told Mariani that they had had trouble getting accurate times for him, probably because of how he swings his arms. They were impressed with his running. After that session, Mariani's rating as a receiver made a nice jump.

Okay, who do you think made the accurate timing that day? The coaches electronic timing, consistently in the low 4.4's? Or, the "professionals" timing, which included a low 4.4 and a variation of .15 (on the same day and same surface, with the same timing device and timers)?

Also, SmallCollege has provided another example of how Colt Anderson's pro day times were faster than what the scouting services had been saying previously. Additionally, it should be noted that Anderson was still hurting from a bad ankle injury at time of his pro day in March. I assume this cost him a bit of time.



Can i try on your maroon glasses when you eventually take them off? xlolxxlolx

[catatac]

I think it's funny that someone like SmallCollege would automactically think timings by pro scout/services are accurate, and other timings, including by college strength coaches, aren't. Mariani's situation is good example of how pro scout/services timing can be off too.

NFLDraftScout has 3 times listed for Mariani: 4.42, 4.5 and 4.57. Those happen to be the 3 times that he ran that day. Note the large variation in the times. Each of those 3 runs was also timed electronically by Montana coaches. All were in the low 4.4's, which is what Mariani has consistently run for several years. At the conclusion of the session, the "professionals" told Mariani that they had had trouble getting accurate times for him, probably because of how he swings his arms. They were impressed with his running. After that session, Mariani's rating as a receiver made a nice jump.

Okay, who do you think made the accurate timing that day? The coaches electronic timing, consistently in the low 4.4's? Or, the "professionals" timing, which included a low 4.4 and a variation of .15 (on the same day and same surface, with the same timing device and timers)?

Also, SmallCollege has provided another example of how Colt Anderson's pro day times were faster than what the scouting services had been saying previously. Additionally, it should be noted that Anderson was still hurting from a bad ankle injury at time of his pro day in March. I assume this cost him a bit of time.

Obviously you feel pretty strongly that the NFL scout timers aren't as accurate as college coaches... so you you should take him up on the proposal to lay a wager on whether Mariani runs a legit sub 4.4 at the combine.

[mtgrizfan4life]

The point is, the times the NFL teams go by are those of the scouts, not the word of coaches and fans. As much as we all would love for decision makers to take our words for everything, it does not happen.

There is no need to try changing posters mind on this greenie. You seen him run a sub 4.4, good for you, maybe you are good luck. Most people need more convincing, and nothing you can post will change their mind. That convincing will come when he is tried out again by scouts.

The NFL just cannot take the word of players' coaches and fans. Afterall, it is possible they can exaggerate the truth. Even though you may trust college coaches more than nfl scouts, that is not the reality of things for the NFL teams. No matter how much you swear he ran sub 4.4, it is not going to change anything in the way people think.

If you feel the scouts are so bad, why not make some cash for yourself and become one yourself? You seem to know more than the professionals. Why aren't you a GM, head scout, talent evaluator for a NFL team?

This can go on forever, and unfortunately for everyone it will hang in limbo until he runs for scouts again. Here is to hoping he runs a sub 4.4 for them.

[Green26]

Cat, where did I say that I didn't think NFL timers were as good as college coach timers? My point is that people like SmallCollege apparently think that NFL timers are always more accurate than anyone else. This example, in which the timers admitted that they couldn't get an accurate reading, shows that NFL timers aren't always the most accurate.

Cat, tell us who you think did the most accurate timing in this example?

I am willing to bet SmallCollege, or anyone else who wants to bet, that Mariani will run faster than a 4.5 at either a pro day or NFL combine. I have picked 4.5 from this quote of SmallCollege ("I was given a 4.50 on him from NFL scouts:").
Any takers?

(Note that I have never said what Mariani would run. I just said what he had run, and more recently said the professionals had admitted they couldn't get an accurate time on him.)

By the way, the professionals also told UM's Schillinger that they were unable to get an accurate timing of him too.

If SmallCollege now wants to admit that Mariani appears to be a low 4.4 guy, who has run below 4.4 on occasion, and that the professionals appear not to have gotten an accurate reading (which they have admitted), then I'm fine with that.

[Green26]

This thread was initially about the Payton watch list, including about how fast Mariani had run recently. It was not about NFL scouts and timing. Some of you can't stay on topic and can't read.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Cat, where did I say that I didn't think NFL timers were as good as college coach timers? My point is that people like SmallCollege apparently think that NFL timers are always more accurate than anyone else. This example, in which the timers admitted that they couldn't get an accurate reading, shows that NFL timers aren't always the most accurate.

Cat, tell us who you think did the most accurate timing in this example?

I am willing to bet SmallCollege, or anyone else who wants to bet, that Mariani will run faster than a 4.5 at either a pro day or NFL combine. I have picked 4.5 from this quote of SmallCollege ("I was given a 4.50 on him from NFL scouts:").
Any takers?

(Note that I have never said what Mariani would run. I just said what he had run, and more recently said the professionals had admitted they couldn't get an accurate time on him.)

By the way, the professionals also told UM's Schillinger that they were unable to get an accurate timing of him too.

If SmallCollege now wants to admit that Mariani appears to be a low 4.4 guy, who has run below 4.4 on occasion, and that the professionals appear not to have gotten an accurate reading (which they have admitted), then I'm fine with that.

I would bet you a month of not posting at all on whether he runs a 4.38 for a NFL scout before the season starters. In fact, can have a scout come by and time him for you in the next month. Just tell me when Mariani could do it and they would love to come get another time on him. :)

What I am saying, and someone else posted this, is that tons of players, coaches, etc. claim players run a 4.35 all the time and then they run a 4.45, 4.50, or sometimes slower. I would say 80 percent of the players I have seen over the years have ran slower than they claim to. It is just how it is. Everyone wants to think the very best of themselves and are not always realistic.

I think Mariani could run faster after training but the 4.50 that teams have him at is much closer to his game speed than the 4.38 you said he runs. Thus that is the number that myself and those who work with NFL teams or all-star games go by until he betters that number in front of scouts.

I really hope he runs a 4.38 for scouts because that would be great for him. Mariani is a great kid and a great FCS player who I truly hope makes it at the next level.

[Proud Griz Man]

It is just how it is. Everyone wants to think the very best of themselves and are not always realistic.



xdizzyx

[smallcollegefbfan]

xdizzyx

Yeah but it is okay. Like I said before, I am going to pull out all of these preseason threads at the end of the year so we can all see where we missed big and where we hit it big. xthumbsupx I think all of us, including me, might see we all don't know as much as we think. LOL

[Proud Griz Man]

Yeah but it is okay. Like I said before, I am going to pull out all of these preseason threads at the end of the year so we can all see where we missed big and where we hit it big. xthumbsupx I think all of us, including me, might see we all don't know as much as we think. LOL

Chill out. You guys are arguing over 4.4 versus 4.5. Everyone has a right to express their opinion. I have no need to be right and do the "told you so" dance.

[Green26]

SmallCollege just can't acknowlege that he's wrong on some of this one. He can't admit that the scouts admitted that they couldn't get an accurate time on Mariani. He won't address the huge variation in the 3 times they clocked for him. He won't admit that Mariani in fact ran a 4.42 for the scouts in one of the runs. He won't admit acknowlege that the UM electronic timing had him in the low 4.4's on all 3 runs. He won't admit that timing by scouts is not always accurate. He doesn't want to admit that Mariani in fact ran a 4.38, timed by UM coaches, last week. Small College is afraid to bet that Mariani will run under SC's time of 4.50 in his pro day or the combine.

UM doesn't have or allow any players to run 40's this late in the summer, because they don't want to risk a pulled muscle. One would think such a knowledgeable expert like SC, would know this.

I can admit that a large portion, 80% is a good guess, of players don't equal or better their "publicized" 40 times for the scouts. I can admit that many factors can impact 40 times, including equipment, surface, weather, injury, etc. I can admit that everyone doesn't equal or better their personal best everytime they run. I acknowledge that the NFL relies on their timing not others. I can admit that I made a borderline rude comment or two toward SC, and that he didn't return the comment. Thanks and my apology for that.

[mtgrizfan4life]

Nobody should have to admit anything when it comes to a disagreement regarding something one person witnessed and the other did not.

Mariani's and all prospect's 40 times will be in question until they run for scouts again. As for the coaches or schools timings, for me to fully believe what a player does, I have to be there in person to witness it, time it, or have the school state it for the public to see.

If I did see it, I too would be doubted. Maybe when I do witness something like that, I will just keep the information general to post. Something like, he ran 4.4 and a few timers had him for better. Stating he ran a 4.38 or 4.37 now heightens the expectations by fans for Mariani.

All of FCS nation is now expecting him to run sub 4.4 when scouts look at him again. If he does, then we will believe he is that much better. If he does not, not many will be surprised, but a few here will surely be here calling you out. Either way, Mariani will be in a NFL camp next spring and fall, anything from 4.37 to 4.55 will be good enough with his other skills. The difference is the better time will better his stock, his paycheck, and get his future off the ground better.

[smallcollegefbfan]

SmallCollege just can't acknowlege that he's wrong on some of this one. He can't admit that the scouts admitted that they couldn't get an accurate time on Mariani. He won't address the huge variation in the 3 times they clocked for him. He won't admit that Mariani in fact ran a 4.42 for the scouts in one of the runs. He won't admit acknowlege that the UM electronic timing had him in the low 4.4's on all 3 runs. He won't admit that timing by scouts is not always accurate. He doesn't want to admit that Mariani in fact ran a 4.38, timed by UM coaches, last week. Small College is afraid to bet that Mariani will run under SC's time of 4.50 in his pro day or the combine.

UM doesn't have or allow any players to run 40's this late in the summer, because they don't want to risk a pulled muscle. One would think such a knowledgeable expert like SC, would know this.

I can admit that a large portion, 80% is a good guess, of players don't equal or better their "publicized" 40 times for the scouts. I can admit that many factors can impact 40 times, including equipment, surface, weather, injury, etc. I can admit that everyone doesn't equal or better their personal best everytime they run. I acknowledge that the NFL relies on their timing not others. I can admit that I made a borderline rude comment or two toward SC, and that he didn't return the comment. Thanks and my apology for that.

All I am saying is that I trust a NFL scout over a school, no matter what and I will tell you why. For example, at one school, I won't call names, times players in 35 yards and tells the players that they are running 40s. When the scouts came there were players claiming they could run a 4.45 and when the scouts actually timed them running 40 yards they ran a 4.85 or 4.90.

What I am saying is that schools sometimes tweak how they do things to give players confidence but all scouts do it the exact same way, no matter what. The NFL is not there to make players feel good but there to get accurate information.

The 4.50 the scouts have him at is closer to what his game speed looks like than the 4.38 so therefore I am going with the 4.50 for now. Look, he could look much faster this fall, and I hope he does, and run 4.3s in the postseason and then that will be great for him. In this case Montana's time could be very accurate but until he runs that for a scout I am skeptical and I am sure you can see why.

I am just a realist and skeptical as I live by the same rules as NFL scouts and that is if we didn't time it ourselves or if another scout did not time it then as far as we are concerned it never really happened.

Our jobs are on the line and thus if we went by what every school says we would be way off on many players. When your job is on the line you are much more conservative in estimates and the 40 times you believe than you are when your job is not on the line.

For the record, I admit everything you said happened at UM. I am just saying that I am skeptical it will happen like that for scouts. I would bet anyone that Mariani will run faster than a 4.50 on some NFL scouts watches at his pro day or combine, however, I am saying that I don't think he will run a 4.38 electronically for them.

You don't have to apologize to me. I have been around this business for a long time and have seen a lot of people claim a certain time at a school. I know Montana is very accurate in what they do and I know their strength coaches are good. They do an excellent job for NFL teams as well. You just have to understand that I have seen many players and coaches claim they can run a certain time and then run .10-.20 slower for NFL teams. Mariani ran a 4.38 based on how Montana times but he ran a 4.49 or 4.50 based on how the NFL times and I just happen to use the NFL times.

Here is a curve ball I will throw everyone. Has anyone ever thought that while the NFL is the most accurate when compared to schools that the Olympics time it more accurately than they do. In the NFL they use hand to start the clock and the electronic timer stops it but in the Olympics they use electronic time to start and stop it. Their clocks are the most accurate of anyone in the world and thus many of these 4.35s you see football players run would be 4.45s or 4.50s based on the Olympic timers.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Nobody should have to admit anything when it comes to a disagreement regarding something one person witnessed and the other did not.

Mariani's and all prospect's 40 times will be in question until they run for scouts again. As for the coaches or schools timings, for me to fully believe what a player does, I have to be there in person to witness it, time it, or have the school state it for the public to see.

If I did see it, I too would be doubted. Maybe when I do witness something like that, I will just keep the information general to post. Something like, he ran 4.4 and a few timers had him for better. Stating he ran a 4.38 or 4.37 now heightens the expectations by fans for Mariani.

All of FCS nation is now expecting him to run sub 4.4 when scouts look at him again. If he does, then we will believe he is that much better. If he does not, not many will be surprised, but a few here will surely be here calling you out. Either way, Mariani will be in a NFL camp next spring and fall, anything from 4.37 to 4.55 will be good enough with his other skills. The difference is the better time will better his stock, his paycheck, and get his future off the ground better.

It is much better for a player to be expected to run a 4.50 and then run a 4.43 than be expected to run a 4.35 and run a 4.45. You should always be conservative in the number you give out and then be proven better than give out a number you can't run daily and run slower than what you claim. Being faster than expected betters your stock, not running slower than expected.

As you said, either way, Mariani is getting into a NFL camp no matter what.

[Proud Griz Man]

All I am saying is that I trust a NFL scout over a school, no matter what.

I am just a realist and skeptical.

Our jobs are on the line and thus if we went by what every school says we would be way off on many players. When your job is on the line you are much more conservative in estimates and the 40 times you believe than you are when your job is not on the line.




xwhistlexxwhistlexxwhistlex

Take a big deep breath, and exhale pal. Nobody is getting fired over 40-yd dash times. xreadx

Here is my point again. Mark Mariani was the fastest UM player but couldn't avoid tacklers and learned to better use his speed and agility in 2007 and 2008. It does little good if they can't avoid defenders if the Kids can run 4.29.

Lastly, don't automically assume UM has erroneous times because others are skewed. Broad brush generalizations. xsmhx

[smallcollegefbfan]

xwhistlexxwhistlexxwhistlex

Take a big deep breath, and exhale pal. Nobody is getting fired over 40-yd dash times. xreadx

Here is my point again. Mark Mariani was the fastest UM player but couldn't avoid tacklers and learned to better use his speed and agility in 2007 and 2008. It does little good if they can't avoid defenders if the Kids can run 4.29.

Lastly, don't automically assume UM has erroneous times because others are skewed. Broad brush generalizations. xsmhx

I am not worked up or anything just pointing out some things from a professional's point of view.

Actually, scouts have been fired for constantly not being detailed enough or not getting accurate data. There was one who was let go after just one season with the NFL Scouting Combine who had been rumored to not only be very off in his projections but inaccurate with his data.

For scouts they have to be safe and assume all of the schools times are skewed until they know for sure they aren't. If Mariani runs a 4.35 next spring then I will know for sure that Montana is using the same methods at NFL teams and if he runs in the 4.4s we will know they are skewed. Hopefully they aren't because a 4.38 at the combine would definitely put Mariani in the draft because many people think he is a 4.50-4.55 type guy.

[Green26]

Small College, if scouts are supposed to be so accurate in timing, how do you explain that the scouts timed Mariani in 4.42, 4.50 and 4.57 in the same session?

At that same session, the UM electronic timing had him in the low 4.4's in all 3 turns. At that session, the scouts said they were unable to time him accurately. Yet, you rely on that single session of timing by the scouts.

How do you reconcile your own inconsistent statements on Mariani in this thread? It seems you believe Mariani got slower as the thread progressed. Here are some of your statements:

"He looks like a 4.40-4.43 guy on film"

"I think based on how he ran last year that he will run a 4.46-4.50 hand held and 4.57-4.62 electronic"

"I would bet anyone that Mariani will run faster than a 4.50 on some NFL scouts watches at his pro day or combine"

Also, how do you reconcile these inconsistent statements of yours on Mariani?

"All I am saying is that as of now Mariani is considered a high 4.4 to low 4.5 guy by the NFL"

"many people think he is a 4.50-4.55 type guy."

My conclusion from the discussion in this thread is that you don't know what you're talking about regarding Mariani.

The scouts I have talked to like Marian's speed. The scouts who timed him liked his speed. While he does not have blazing speed, he is very fast.

Anyone who think Mariani is a 4.50-4.55 guy it completely out to lunch. Quite frankly, I don't believe your statement.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

So getting back to Nichols... I say he throws for at least 3500yds this season, if not closer to 4000.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Small College, if scouts are supposed to be so accurate in timing, how do you explain that the scouts timed Mariani in 4.42, 4.50 and 4.57 in the same session?

At that same session, the UM electronic timing had him in the low 4.4's in all 3 turns. At that session, the scouts said they were unable to time him accurately. Yet, you rely on that single session of timing by the scouts.

How do you reconcile your own inconsistent statements on Mariani in this thread? It seems you believe Mariani got slower as the thread progressed. Here are some of your statements:

"He looks like a 4.40-4.43 guy on film"

"I think based on how he ran last year that he will run a 4.46-4.50 hand held and 4.57-4.62 electronic"

"I would bet anyone that Mariani will run faster than a 4.50 on some NFL scouts watches at his pro day or combine"

Also, how do you reconcile these inconsistent statements of yours on Mariani?

"All I am saying is that as of now Mariani is considered a high 4.4 to low 4.5 guy by the NFL"

"many people think he is a 4.50-4.55 type guy."

My conclusion from the discussion in this thread is that you don't know what you're talking about regarding Mariani.

The scouts I have talked to like Marian's speed. The scouts who timed him liked his speed. While he does not have blazing speed, he is very fast.

Anyone who think Mariani is a 4.50-4.55 guy it completely out to lunch. Quite frankly, I don't believe your statement.

That is why they took the average of his two 40s, which happens a lot. During junior pro days scouts have to time players on many different surfaces in many different conditions and they sometimes mess up on one run. I timed a player once and got 2 times very close and 1 time very far off. It happens. In fact this past spring I timed a player at 4.19 and 4.33 in the same session. Sometimes players run much faster on one run than another run.

I am not doubting that he ran a 4.38 for UM and I firmly believe he did. All I am saying is that I go by what NFL scouts tell me over a school. I don't know the people who timed at UM and thus I can't take their time over the time of those from the NFL, whom I know.

I have watched Mariani play several times and I estimated a 4.46-4.50 and thus the 4.50 the scouts gave me looks about right.

I know you probably think I am full of crap but you have to understand where I am coming from. I get paid by an all-star game to scout small school players, write up weekly and prospect reports, evaluate tape, do player interviews, talk to coaches, etc. My profession is scouting and thus that is why I trust the NFL because there are so many colleges who time differently.

I am not saying he can't run a 4.38 but simply saying that I have him at a 4.50 verified and I figured he would run sub 4.5 not in the high 4.3s and when the clocks are very close to my estimates I tend to stick to those. As someone who gets paid to workout players, evaluate tape, and write up reports I trust those who do that same thing for a living and you have to understand that.

I don't think we are disagreeing on anything except the fact that you are taking the times of UM over that of the NFL and I am not. I really hope he runs in the 4.3s for scouts because a 4.38 would bump him up from the priority free agent projection the combine people have him to a solid late round grade and a combine invite. The bottom line here is that the times of NFL scouts will determine his fate with the NFL, not the times of his coaches, despite if the times by UM and the NFL are exactly the same.

[mtgrizfan4life]

This is getting insane. Quit trying to convince smallcollege or anyone here rather he ran what you said or not. At this stage it is irrelevant. It will be relevant again, when he is timed by scouts. Speaking of scouts, I am sure some people will doubt your talking to them.

Can we just leave this that you witnessed him run a sub 4.4? Which is in question, once again irrelevant. Who cares who believes what? Some people will choose to believe you, some others will choose to not believe you. That is life in general. The skeptics will be believers if and when he does it for scouts. They are entitled to have their opinions, even if it contradicts yours. This world would be rather boring if we all agreed with everything.

Is it possible he ran sub 4.4? Yes, but that time to date is not something proven to the NFL scouts. If it were proven to have happened we would be seeing links to websites, etc.

Lets just respect the opinions of one another, who cares who agrees with who or who disagrees? Why continue posting to make one another look bad? There is nothing to prove at this stage. Mariani will settle this dispute one way or the other, when he again runs for scouts. His stock will be determined by those scouts, not by his coaches, fans, or school officials. Rather you like it or not, the scouts are the trusted authority by the NFL, not a fan of whatever team, in this case Montana.

Why not just leave this debate with an agreement to disagree?

[smallcollegefbfan]

This is getting insane. Quit trying to convince smallcollege or anyone here rather he ran what you said or not. At this stage it is irrelevant. It will be relevant again, when he is timed by scouts. Speaking of scouts, I am sure some people will doubt your talking to them.

Can we just leave this that you witnessed him run a sub 4.4? Which is in question, once again irrelevant. Who cares who believes what? Some people will choose to believe you, some others will choose to not believe you. That is life in general. The skeptics will be believers if and when he does it for scouts. They are entitled to have their opinions, even if it contradicts yours. This world would be rather boring if we all agreed with everything.

Is it possible he ran sub 4.4? Yes, but that time to date is not something proven to the NFL scouts. If it were proven to have happened we would be seeing links to websites, etc.

Lets just respect the opinions of one another, who cares who agrees with who or who disagrees? Why continue posting to make one another look bad? There is nothing to prove at this stage. Mariani will settle this dispute one way or the when he again runs for scouts. His stock will be determined by those scouts, not by his coaches, fans, or school officials. Rather you like it or not, the scouts are the trusted authority by the NFL, not a fan of whatever team, in this case Montana.

Why not just leave this debate with an agreement to disagree?

Exactly! I should have just said that just like you did from the beginning because this argument is childish but I didn't think he understand what I meant. The bottom line, as you just stated, is that the times of NFL scouts are the ones that determine every player's future and my time, UM, Green's, etc. are completely irrelevant and will be questioned until player runs that time for the NFL. Because of the fact their times are the only ones that matter those are the only times I go by, due to my profession.

[JohnStOnge]

I'm going to predict that IF that Montana guy is invited to the combine they will report him as being somewhere in the 4.5s. I say that because I've watched it over many years and you can pretty much count on times reported for the combine as being substantially slower than times reported by the schools. Not always; but the overwhelming majority of the time.

[mtgrizfan4life]

John, many on here are with you on that observation. How dare some of us put stock into anything the scouts observe and report. After all they are not accurate and they are wrong.

For the sake of this board next spring, I hope he runs 4.4 something, that way we will see a median result. So both sides will be somewhat right. Meaning it is possible he could occasionally break 4.4, but was not quite there at that time.

Yet if he runs closer to 4.6, someone here will be called out after making such a big deal over it.

[Green26]

SmallCollege, why can't you just admit that you are wrong on this one. You have zero information on Mariani, other than having read an NFl scouting report listing him at 4.49-4.50 (from a situation in which the scouts admitted they hadn't timed him accurately) and perhaps having seen him play on tv or in person a couple times.

Again, this is what you initially said about Mariani in this thread. Why can't you admit now what you yourself said?

""He looks like a 4.40-4.43 guy on film"

Besides your earlier inconsistent statements, now you have said this:

"I have watched Mariani play several times and I estimated a 4.46-4.50"

Everyone (in the know) at UM says Mariani is a low 4.4's guy. This is what he is. Why can't you just admit what you also said about it?

Yes, I've said he's run a 4.37, 4.38 and 4.41 (and I think he has a 4.39 in there too), but what he is, is a consistent low 4.4 guy.

Okay, let's start a different stat topic. He just averaged 38 inches in the vertical jump several days ago. Didn't get any jumps over 40, as he usually does, but still 38 average. How's that rank for a receiver? I assume you have all the stats.

One more small thing. Mariani ran 3 times for scouts, not 2 as you said. Here's your quote: "That is why they took the average of his two 40s". Where's your credibility?

[smallcollegefbfan]

SmallCollege, why can't you just admit that you are wrong on this one. You have zero information on Mariani, other than having read an NFl scouting report listing him at 4.49-4.50 (from a situation in which the scouts admitted they hadn't timed him accurately) and perhaps having seen him play on tv or in person a couple times.

Again, this is what you initially said about Mariani in this thread. Why can't you admit now what you yourself said?

""He looks like a 4.40-4.43 guy on film"

Besides your earlier inconsistent statements, now you have said this:

"I have watched Mariani play several times and I estimated a 4.46-4.50"

Everyone (in the know) at UM says Mariani is a low 4.4's guy. This is what he is. Why can't you just admit what you also said about it?

Yes, I've said he's run a 4.37, 4.38 and 4.41 (and I think he has a 4.39 in there too), but what he is, is a consistent low 4.4 guy.

Okay, let's start a different stat topic. He just averaged 38 inches in the vertical jump several days ago. Didn't get any jumps over 40, as he usually does, but still 38 average. How's that rank for a receiver? I assume you have all the stats.

One more small thing. Mariani ran 3 times for scouts, not 2 as you said. Here's your quote: "That is why they took the average of his two 40s". Where's your credibility?

I went back and watched his tape again and while on a play here and there I could see low 4.4 he looks like a 4.50 guy most of the time. Many players look faster in one game than another one. That is very common. I can't explain why but it just happens.

Again, people at UM, yourself, and even I don't matter because the opinions of those who select these players are all that truly matters. Why argue when there is nothing you or anyone at UM can do to get him in an all-star game but those who are in charge of the bowls and NFL teams. I can put players in front of teams but I can't even guarantee they get signed or drafted.

On to your comment on the vertical jump. First, let me say the 38 inch vertical is good for a WR. The average vertical at the 2009 NFL Scouting Combine was 36 inches so it puts him slightly above the average. Mike Wallace at Ole Miss was 40 inches, Mike Thomas at Arizona was 40 1/2 inches, Tiquan Underwood at Rutgers was 41 1/2 inches, and Dillard at Rice jumped 42 1/2 inches. Mariani's vertical would be in the top 10 at the combine, which is solid. Anything in the 40 and above range is very good. One thing to remember is that most players don't do their personal best at the combine. Say Mariani had jumped from 37 1/2 to 40 inches at school, I would guess that he would jump a 38 at the combine, based on how most, most meaning around 85-90 percent, players have performed at the combine.

I know he ran two times for them. I was just stating that if a player runs 3 times, usually because one of the first two was way off, they will take his two closer times and average them. I apologize for wording it wrongly. That is what I get for posting when it was almost 24 hours without sleep.

My whole point is that we as scouts will always use the times of other scouts. That is the bottom line.

My whole point here is that his 4.50 from the NFL is closer to his game speed than his 4.38 you said he runs and that their clocks are the only ones that matter because they are the ones making the decisions, not you and not even I.

[Green26]

This thread and my initial post were about whether Mariani should have been on the Payton list. It was you, SC, who tried to turn the subject to what Mariani had and would run for the scouts.

It bothered, and still bothers, me to see you posting that "your sources" told you something, and that Mariani ran 4.50 for the scouts and therefore he is a 4.50 guy rather than a low 4.4 guy. I just happened to know that the scouts admitted that they were unable to time him accurately, and that their 3 times were all over the spectrum. I also knew that the electronic timing done at the same time had him in the low 4.4's. Thus, it is absolutely clear that the 4.50 timing/average was not accurate, and you shouldn't be treating it as the best evidence of what he runs.

Additionally, you said in your early post that he appeared to be a low 4.4's guy, and then as you and I debated, you backed off of that and starting saying he was slower. I don't know why you did that.

I am not trying to get Mariani invited to an all-star game or into the combines. I made no predections as to what Mariani might run for scouts, other than to offer to be $100 that he would run under 4.50 at pro day or the combines. My initial premise was that Mariani deserved to be on the Payton watch list. I stated times that Mariani had run at UM, using electronic equipment. Later, I wanted to point that what you were saying about Mariani's speed was not correct. I doubt that anyone, including the scouts who timed him that day, think he's a 4.5 guy.

I don't know what game tapes you have looked at, but Mariani got a bad ankle injury in the last game of the season. It looked awful on replay. He was slowed considerably in the playoffs. He sat out some of spring ball due to allow the ankle to heal, but is apparently fine now. If you've look at JMU or Chatty tapes, those are indicative of his actual game speed.

As for your NFL and scout stuff generally, great. You obviously have information and are involved. I agree with what you say generally--just not with respect to Mariani.

[smallcollegefbfan]

This thread and my initial post were about whether Mariani should have been on the Payton list. It was you, SC, who tried to turn the subject to what Mariani had and would run for the scouts.

It bothered, and still bothers, me to see you posting that "your sources" told you something, and that Mariani ran 4.50 for the scouts and therefore he is a 4.50 guy rather than a low 4.4 guy. I just happened to know that the scouts admitted that they were unable to time him accurately, and that their 3 times were all over the spectrum. I also knew that the electronic timing done at the same time had him in the low 4.4's. Thus, it is absolutely clear that the 4.50 timing/average was not accurate, and you shouldn't be treating it as the best evidence of what he runs.

Additionally, you said in your early post that he appeared to be a low 4.4's guy, and then as you and I debated, you backed off of that and starting saying he was slower. I don't know why you did that.

I am not trying to get Mariani invited to an all-star game or into the combines. I made no predections as to what Mariani might run for scouts, other than to offer to be $100 that he would run under 4.50 at pro day or the combines. My initial premise was that Mariani deserved to be on the Payton watch list. I stated times that Mariani had run at UM, using electronic equipment. Later, I wanted to point that what you were saying about Mariani's speed was not correct. I doubt that anyone, including the scouts who timed him that day, think he's a 4.5 guy.

I don't know what game tapes you have looked at, but Mariani got a bad ankle injury in the last game of the season. It looked awful on replay. He was slowed considerably in the playoffs. He sat out some of spring ball due to allow the ankle to heal, but is apparently fine now. If you've look at JMU or Chatty tapes, those are indicative of his actual game speed.

As for your NFL and scout stuff generally, great. You obviously have information and are involved. I agree with what you say generally--just not with respect to Mariani.

And I fully agree that Mariani probably deserves to be on the list as of now but I do think Reynolds is more likely to have big numbers and that is probably why he made it on. Either way you can't go wrong as both players are very good.

I am not saying the 4.50 is great evidence of what he runs but simply saying because someone who is completely impartial to Mariani, does this for a living, and works for the NFL did it that it is the best to go by, to date.

The reason I backed off the times is because I went back and looked at what others ran who appear faster than him and they ran in the high 4.4 or low to mid 4.5 range. I also went back and watched a game of his as well.

On agreeing with me I am not saying that he could never run a 4.38 for scouts but simply saying that many schools put out faster times than the NFL does. If he does run in the 4.38 range then his time being faster would put him in about 5-10 percent of players whose times coming out of their school are dead on or slower than what the NFL has them at. It is just my experience that many players run slower and until proven wrong that is what we go by.

On Mariani going to the postseason. I can promise you he is on all-star game watch lists and with a big season he could very easily get an invite. The games I have worked with have brought in several UM players and I have always been impressed by the performances that Montana players have shown at our games. Maybe he will get an invite this year! :)

[catbob]

This could be the most ridiculous argument I've seen yet on AGS. I seriously cannot believe a fan could care so much about the timing inconsistencies of player.

I'm not even going to weigh in on who is right or who is wrong. SC gets paid to do this stuff, so I understand why he is arguing. I don't even know what Green's deal is. I can see disagreeing with SC and letting him know, but kicking up this much dirt and then claiming you are the victim is, well, frankly, just silly man.

[smallcollegefbfan]

This could be the most ridiculous argument I've seen yet on AGS. I seriously cannot believe a fan could care so much about the timing inconsistencies of player.

I'm not even going to weigh in on who is right or who is wrong. SC gets paid to do this stuff, so I understand why he is arguing. I don't even know what Green's deal is. I can see disagreeing with SC and letting him know, but kicking up this much dirt and then claiming you are the victim is, well, frankly, just silly man.

Thank you for understanding. I hate these arguments as well because as you said those of us who get paid to do this and work very hard feel like we are being called incompetent at our jobs and I am sure that anyone here would not like to be told that. It is really a low blow at us and while I don't take it personally there are some that do. After getting in here and seeing what all is done I have even more respect for the scouts. They work long, hard hours for little pay and NO CREDIT. It is tougher than the average fans realizes.

[Green26]

I liked SC's last post, and generally enjoyed the discussion. While totally beating the dead horse, I thought we reached basic understanding on the positions. While we don't agree on everything, there seems to be basic agreement on most things. While SC has considerable info on the NFL and scouting process, and had seen a report (from the session in which the scouts said they couldn't get an accurate timing), he has not seen Mariani run in person, has not talked to the UM coaches and players about Mariani's speed, may or may not have talked to any scouts about Mariani (as I have) and apparently did not know that the scouts had said they were unable to time him accurately.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I liked SC's last post, and generally enjoyed the discussion. While totally beating the dead horse, I thought we reached basic understanding on the positions. While we don't agree on everything, there seems to be basic agreement on most things. While SC has considerable info on the NFL and scouting process, and had seen a report (from the session in which the scouts said they couldn't get an accurate timing), he has not seen Mariani run in person, has not talked to the UM coaches and players about Mariani's speed, may or may not have talked to any scouts about Mariani (as I have) and apparently did not know that the scouts had said they were unable to time him accurately.

Actually I know Mariani, a couple UM coaches, and some others around the UM program. They are all great people and they all understand why I feel the way I do because of how many other schools are.

I always enjoy general discussion on players, their times, etc. There are many false bits of information out there about the process and I enjoy discussing all of these things.

As far as beating a dead horse. I don't want to force my opinions or myself on anyone. If anyone ever wants me gone from the message board all they have to do is tell me.

[Green26]

Were u the guy who sent Mariani a text about 4 or 5 days ago?

[smallcollegefbfan]

Were u the guy who sent Mariani a text about 4 or 5 days ago?

No. It has been a while since I spoke to him.