Possible Future Split of the CAA?

[JMU Duke Dog]

What do you all think of this setup for what will happen to the CAA in the upcoming years?

AEC/A10
Albany
Charlotte
Fordham
Maine
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Richmond
Stony Brook

CAA
Delaware
Georgia State
Hofstra
James Madison
Northeastern
Old Dominion
Towson
Villanova
William & Mary

[GannonFan]

No offense, but gee, hasn't it been a whole 20 minutes since the last discussion of what the CAA will look like after its imminent break up? :p

[Native]

Seems to make sense.

[JMU Duke Dog]

No offense, but gee, hasn't it been a whole 20 minutes since the last discussion of what the CAA will look like after its imminent break up? :p


xlolx

I figured this topic had probably been discussed recently. I had not been here for awhile and was wondering what people were thinking nowadays. I did go back several pages to see if it had been recently but apparently I did not go back far enough.

:o

[GannonFan]

Seems to make sense.

How does it make sense? Why would Charlotte want to be in a football conference like that? Outside of Richmond, no one is remotely close to them geographically and Charlotte has already talked about grander ideas than just the FCS level.

And why would Richmond abandon the CAA for football? The A10 wouldn't ever make a power play and force teams to play under the A10 in all sports - heck, they have trouble holding together what they have today. And why would Richmond want to leave and then potentially harm or lose the in-state rivalries they have now (JMU, W&M)? And the CAA's not going to kick them out - you need 75% of the football crowd to kick a member out.

And from UNH people on these boards, UNH doesn't seem to be in a hurry to form a different conference either.

Of course the CAA will look different sometime in the future, but it won't break up simply because they want to be pre-emptive knowing they'll break up someday. There needs to be real reasons why teams want to leave and why they want to associate with a different set of schools. Right now, most if not all the schools in the CAA all like they company they are keeping.

[JMU Duke Dog]

How does it make sense? Why would Charlotte want to be in a football conference like that? Outside of Richmond, no one is remotely close to them geographically and Charlotte has already talked about grander ideas than just the FCS level.

And why would Richmond abandon the CAA for football? The A10 wouldn't ever make a power play and force teams to play under the A10 in all sports - heck, they have trouble holding together what they have today. And why would Richmond want to leave and then potentially harm or lose the in-state rivalries they have now (JMU, W&M)? And the CAA's not going to kick them out - you need 75% of the football crowd to kick a member out.

And from UNH people on these boards, UNH doesn't seem to be in a hurry to form a different conference either.

Of course the CAA will look different sometime in the future, but it won't break up simply because they want to be pre-emptive knowing they'll break up someday. There needs to be real reasons why teams want to leave and why they want to associate with a different set of schools. Right now, most if not all the schools in the CAA all like they company they are keeping.

I think that if this split has to occur one day that something should be done with Charlotte and Richmond. Charlotte and Richmond are both members of the A10 for their other athletic programs. I have no idea if it would be possible for Charlotte and Richmond to switch into the CAA for all sports with Hofstra and Northeastern going to the A10/AEC. This switch would make the most sense from a geographical standpoint. All four institutions would have to be willing to make such a move, and the CAA would have to be willing to leave the Boston and New York media markets. This switch would result in the following:

AEC/A10
Albany
Fordham
Hofstra
Maine
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Northeastern
Rhode Island
Stony Brook

CAA
Charlotte
Delaware
Georgia State
James Madison
Old Dominion
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William & Mary

[Wildcat80]

What WOULD cause this to happen? $4+ gas and exorbitant travel costs would be my most likely reason. With 20 qualifiers it would be my guess most deserving playoff teams would get in-regardless how big the CAA is. Money would always be a reason but I do not see FCS revenues affected by TV etc--only FBS games are a big payday. Politics-with so many state colleges involved there could be pressure to assist some-Albany, Stony Brook?-to join their Northeast neighbors. I do not see DukeDog's combo happening. If there is a break I think it's regional with a North & South grouping and also SoCon schools involved too.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Wow. There are 2 other threads covering this, the most recent at http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60212

This thread has gotten crazy.

All of a sudden Charlotte is joining the CAA for all-sports?
That's a big step backwards. They had a bad year and would still be #1 or #2 in the CAA in attendance with their 6200 average attendance. In the A10, they rank annually behind Dayton (12K+), Xavier (10K+), St. Louis, Temple and St. Joesphs. A revived UMass program will likely push 7 of those schools to +7000 average...something you won't see in the CAA. Charlotte is having trouble getting football up and running. But when they do, you cna be sure they will aim for the Big East, then CUSA or Sunbelt.

And Richmond? They LEFT the CAA for basketball...like most schools not playing FBS football do. And it's paid off for them as they received an at-large berth, something that had been done only, what, twice in the existence of the CAA prior to that time.

Hofstra? The AE would take them back, but as we've discussed many times, it makes no sense right now. Same goes for Northeastern.

Threads about schools UPGRADING their conference homes is one thing. But you've got Charlotte and Richmond DOWNGRADING to the CAA and Hofstra & Northeastern DOWNGRADING to the AEast. It's just missing the key factor of logic: profit motive.

[JMU Duke Dog]

You just made a great argument for my first post with Charlotte and Richmond being in the AEC/A10 football conference. Another argument is why would the CAA be ready to depart with Hofstra and Northeastern which were both fairly recent additions to the conference. Some will still argue that these two do not make any sense from a geographical standpoint. I believe that some regional overlap between these two conferences would not be a bad thing. Charlotte and Richmond would give exposure in the Mid-Atlantic to the AEC/A10 football conference, while Hofstra and Northeastern would give exposure in the Northeast to the CAA football conference. I do not think this will be a huge factor into any conference affiliation decisions but I think having these two conferences is a better option than a huge CAA so every team plays each other within their conference. Teams currently within the CAA but not within the same conference proposed by this idea could also help schools fill their OOC schedules.

[henfan]

And Richmond? They LEFT the CAA for basketball...like most schools not playing FBS football do.

...except for George Mason, VCU, UNCW, Drexel and, until they committed to sponsoring future FB squads, ODU and GA State. Man, that's a really puzzling comment. xconfusedx

I'm sure there's a meaning there that I'm missing because, in fact, just the opposite has been true. In fact, in the last 10 years, UR and American are the only schools not playing FBS FB to have left the CAA... and American left because they were finding it difficult for their Olympic sport programs to compete in the CAA.

[BearsCountry]

I think that if this split has to occur one day that something should be done with Charlotte and Richmond. Charlotte and Richmond are both members of the A10 for their other athletic programs. I have no idea if it would be possible for Charlotte and Richmond to switch into the CAA for all sports with Hofstra and Northeastern going to the A10/AEC. This switch would make the most sense from a geographical standpoint. All four institutions would have to be willing to make such a move, and the CAA would have to be willing to leave the Boston and New York media markets. This switch would result in the following:

AEC/A10
Albany
Fordham
Hofstra
Maine
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Northeastern
Rhode Island
Stony Brook

CAA
Charlotte
Delaware
Georgia State
James Madison
Old Dominion
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William & Mary

All this depends on what happens to Big East if it decides to blow up. A10 would get hit more than likely and it would start a chain reaction.

[ur2k]

How does it make sense? Why would Charlotte want to be in a football conference like that? Outside of Richmond, no one is remotely close to them geographically and Charlotte has already talked about grander ideas than just the FCS level.

And why would Richmond abandon the CAA for football? The A10 wouldn't ever make a power play and force teams to play under the A10 in all sports - heck, they have trouble holding together what they have today. And why would Richmond want to leave and then potentially harm or lose the in-state rivalries they have now (JMU, W&M)? And the CAA's not going to kick them out - you need 75% of the football crowd to kick a member out.

And from UNH people on these boards, UNH doesn't seem to be in a hurry to form a different conference either.

Of course the CAA will look different sometime in the future, but it won't break up simply because they want to be pre-emptive knowing they'll break up someday. There needs to be real reasons why teams want to leave and why they want to associate with a different set of schools. Right now, most if not all the schools in the CAA all like they company they are keeping.

Yup. Why would UR do anything unless forced to. We have the best of both worlds - a10 basketball and CAA football... not much is changing until the Big East split that may happen somewhere down the road.

[andy7171]

The topic of discussion is getting close to rivaling the "What If" threads in the year prior to Appy-Michigan.

Am I the only one tired of this?

[whitey]

Will the CAA look differently 10 years from now? Likely. But if I had to put some money down I'd bet it's because a few schools move to FBS, not because a bunch of schools split to form (or join) a new FCS conference.

[GannonFan]

Will the CAA look differently 10 years from now? Likely. But if I had to put some money down I'd bet it's because a few schools move to FBS, not because a bunch of schools split to form (or join) a new FCS conference.


Agreed. Change in inevitable, in every league including those that aren't the CAA. But I agree, there's more likliehood of teams bolting for a change in classification rather than a group of teams banding together for a different, and new, FCS conference. xthumbsupx

[henfan]

Am I the only one tired of this?

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/21531/21531-h/images/f085.jpg
boring

[89Hen]

The topic of discussion is getting close to rivaling the "What If" threads in the year prior to Appy-Michigan.

Am I the only one tired of this?
xlolx xlolx xlolx spot on. ENOUGH!!!

[Jackman]

And why would Richmond abandon the CAA for football? The A10 wouldn't ever make a power play and force teams to play under the A10 in all sports - heck, they have trouble holding together what they have today.

Nobody has ever left the A10 without an invitation from the Big East, except for Penn State which went to the Big Ten instead. So if an A10 member moved to a non-BCS conference, it would be a first. I do wonder what would happen if the A10 put a gun to Richmond's head and forced them to choose between football and basketball, but we'll never find out because the A10 doesn't have enough members who would vote to sponsor football.

[andy7171]

Nobody has ever left the A10 without an invitation from the Big East, except for Penn State which went to the Big Ten instead. So if an A10 member moved to a non-BCS conference, it would be a first. I do wonder what would happen if the A10 put a gun to Richmond's head and forced them to choose between football and basketball, but we'll never find out because the A10 doesn't have enough members who would vote to sponsor football.

Every 4-5 years UMBC rumbles about starting up football. Just sayin' xwhistlex

[bluehenbillk]

Why isn't Delaware properly projected to be in the Big East??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It is much more likely that the CAA will politely excuse affiliate members before allowing this to happen.

[89Hen]

It is much more likely that the CAA will politely excuse affiliate members before allowing this to happen.
Don't let henfan hear you say that. :p

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Is this supposed breakup of the Big East something that has been discussed in reality or is just message board banter and fodder?

I've been hearing this for so long, but I've never seen any actual article, quote, press release, comment, news, note, or anything outside of someone on a message board stating that there will (or might) be some breakup.

Can anyone give me some sort of evidence, that would even give me the inkling that there has been at least a murmur that this breakup will (or might) happen?

[Dukie95]

The_CAAFootball (http://twitter.com/The_CAAFootball) just tweeted the following:

CAA FB expansion news coming later today...check www.caasports.com for further details at 1:30 pm ET #caafb #expansion

Interesting development...

[mcveyrl]

The_CAAFootball (http://twitter.com/The_CAAFootball) just tweeted the following:

CAA FB expansion news coming later today...check www.caasports.com for further details at 1:30 pm ET #caafb #expansion

Interesting development...

They read too many message boards...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The_CAAFootball (http://twitter.com/The_CAAFootball) just tweeted the following:

CAA FB expansion news coming later today...check www.caasports.com for further details at 1:30 pm ET #caafb #expansion

Interesting development...

Looks like it's about Georgia State "joining" the CAA....

http://www.georgiastatesports.com//ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=12700&ATCLID=3749082


Georgia State students, faculty, staff, alumni and fans are invited to attend a news conference about the future of the football program on Thursday at 1 p.m. in the Student Center Atrium.

Georgia State President Dr. Mark Becker, Director of Athletics Cheryl L. Levick, head coach Bill Curry and Colonial Athletic Association Commissioner Tom Yeager will make about Georgia State's conference affiliation for football.

A reception will follow.

Live videostreaming of the news conference will also be available.

[I-AA Fan]

Either the conference is wisely going back to the way it was (smaller) ...or this is worst move I have ever seen ...just how cash-strapped is the CAA to take a team from Atlanta? Maybe the university is funneling over some of the 1mil they just received, to sponsor an African university, over to the CAA? Maybe it is just a temp home until GSU can become sanctioned and join a BCA conference?

[NU Hound29]

Either the conference is wisely going back to the way it was (smaller) ...or this is worst move I have ever seen ...just how cash-strapped is the CAA to take a team from Atlanta? Maybe the university is funneling over some of the 1mil they just received, to sponsor an African university, over to the CAA? Maybe it is just a temp home until GSU can become sanctioned and join a BCA conference?

Don't forget that Georgia State is an all sports member, they can't not let them in...

[GannonFan]

Either the conference is wisely going back to the way it was (smaller) ...or this is worst move I have ever seen ...just how cash-strapped is the CAA to take a team from Atlanta? Maybe the university is funneling over some of the 1mil they just received, to sponsor an African university, over to the CAA? Maybe it is just a temp home until GSU can become sanctioned and join a BCA conference?


Don't forget that Georgia State is an all sports member, they can't not let them in...

Uh, yeah, what he said. Georgia St. has been an all sports member of the CAA for a few years now. This isn't really shocking that they be allowed to play football in the league they are in for everything else. xreadx

[mainejeff]

When is Charlotte, Albany and Stony Brook joining the CAA?

Is there a timetable for Delaware joining the Big East?

[TheMinuteman]

Richmond would have to stay in the A10 league they play all other sports there it wouldnt make sense for them to play in the CAA after a break up.


I also hope this conference doesnt break up cause its like the SEC of FBS its very entertaining, anyone could lose on any given week

[GannonFan]

Richmond would have to stay in the A10 league they play all other sports there it wouldnt make sense for them to play in the CAA after a break up.


I also hope this conference doesnt break up cause its like the SEC of FBS its very entertaining, anyone could lose on any given week

And Rhode Island and Towson often do!!! xlolx

[andy7171]

And Rhode Island and Towson often do!!! xlolx

Hey, we've had winning seasons in the CAA, can we be Vandy? xcoolx

[bluehenbillk]

Wonder with the impending GSU announcement if they'll talk about divisions?? That had to come up at the recent league meetings.

[I-AA Fan]

Don't forget that Georgia State is an all sports member, they can't not let them in...


Thanks I did not know that. It has to play havoc with the travel budgets. I still suspect a break-up or this is just a temp home until sanctioned.

[TheMinuteman]

If teams join the FBS which schools would you think it would be...I mean besides UD

[CollegeSportsInfo]

...except for George Mason, VCU, UNCW, Drexel and, until they committed to sponsoring future FB squads, ODU and GA State. Man, that's a really puzzling comment. xconfusedx

I'm sure there's a meaning there that I'm missing because, in fact, just the opposite has been true. In fact, in the last 10 years, UR and American are the only schools not playing FBS FB to have left the CAA... and American left because they were finding it difficult for their Olympic sport programs to compete in the CAA.

I'm clarify for you: Richmond left the CAA for the A10 to benefit its basketball program. Like the majority of schools without FBS football, basketball is the drivign revenue source. It follows an age-old trend: GA State UPGRADING from the ASun to the CAA, Richmond UPGRADING to the A10 from the CAA, DePaul and Marquette upgrading to the Big East from CUSA. Hope this helps clarify things for you.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Nobody has ever left the A10 without an invitation from the Big East, except for Penn State which went to the Big Ten instead. So if an A10 member moved to a non-BCS conference, it would be a first. I do wonder what would happen if the A10 put a gun to Richmond's head and forced them to choose between football and basketball, but we'll never find out because the A10 doesn't have enough members who would vote to sponsor football.

Right. And the only way this would be an issue would be if there were an agreement between the A10 and AE to form a new conference. If the leagues co-sponsored a football league, they could force all members to participate.

[NU Hound29]

Thanks I did not know that. It has to play havoc with the travel budgets. I still suspect a break-up or this is just a temp home until sanctioned.

Not really, they are in downtown Atlanta and Atlanta is cheap and easy to fly into....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Anyone see the press conference? No other word as to what was talked about...

http://www.georgiastatesports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=12700&ATCLID=3749210


It's Official: Georgia State Joins CAA Football

ATLANTA—The Georgia State University football program has been officially admitted as a member of CAA Football when the Panthers begin conference play in 2012.

Colonial Athletic Association Commissioner Tom Yeager extended the official invitation to Georgia State President Dr. Mark Becker, Director of Athletics Cheryl L. Levick and head coach Bill Curry in a Thursday afternoon news conference on the Georgia State campus.

Kicking off in 2010, the Georgia State football program will play two seasons as an independent before joining CAA Football in 2012. The Panthers will compete in the Football Championship Subdivision (FCS), formerly known as NCAA Division I-AA.

...

CAA Football currently includes Delaware, Hofstra, James Madison, Northeastern, Towson and William and Mary, along with New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Richmond, Rhode Island and Villanova. Old Dominion begins its football program this fall and then joins CAA Football in 2011, and Georgia State will be the league’s 14th team in 2012.

xeyebrowx

[T-Dog]

Yeah....no way the CAA is what it currently looks to be in 2012. If none of the current schools go FBS, then the football-only members look to be on the cutting block.

[Dukie95]

Didn't we know that already?

Well that was anti-clamactic. I was at least hoping for some details on the divisional alignment or scheduling.

[henfan]

LFN, you're really reaching again.

In all likelihood, GSU used the editorial selection "currently" in their release referring to the schools who presently comprise the conference. 'Currently' modifies the ensuing sentence, which qualifies ODU's & GSU's present status and did not appear to be intended as a top secret code word for any future membership changes. As GSU is not yet a member of the CAA FB league, it's doubtful they would have enough insight to begin to speculate about potential changes years down the road, let alone enough to make a suggestion like that in a press release. xreadx

[GannonFan]

Yeah....no way the CAA is what it currently looks to be in 2012. If none of the current schools go FBS, then the football-only members look to be on the cutting block.

Not sure how they would do that - CAA Football requires 75% of the football playing members to vote to expel another football playing member. Even after ODU and Georgia State start playing, there will only be 8 full-time CAA teams playing football - they would need to have 3 other non-full-time teams to vote with them to expel anyone.

Unless some leave for FBS, or if some drop football, the CAA isn't changing anytime soon.

[NHwildEcat]

Under this given scenario there are just too many team. If this many teams were in fact in the CAA in the future, the league might want to consider creating an additonal division(s) because it would be a very unbalanced divisional schedule. The max games these guys can play is 12 and with the economy what it is, most teams seem to doing just 11! Plus, I know schools like UNH get a good check from Bowl schools to travel and play in their stadiums, so by potentially forcing more conference games, you would be taking away money from some school that they rely on to compete and field all of their sports.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Yeah....no way the CAA is what it currently looks to be in 2012. If none of the current schools go FBS, then the football-only members look to be on the cutting block.

Not true, it has been established that the CAA Football League is a separate entity and all members have equal standing. And Maine, UNH, UMass and URI are founding members. There won't be any cutting block. Members may choose to leave in the future, but I seriously doubt they will be forced out.

All existing CAA all sports members who add football are to be offered membership. So, it was just a formality that ODU and GaStU are coming onboard.

Personally, I too believe that some schools will opt for FBS. That's why I want the remaining schools to maintain their association so they'll all still be together if some others leave for FBS. I'll deal with a bloated league for a few years rather than some half-arsed new conference. xtwocentsx

[henfan]

I'm clarify for you: Richmond left the CAA for the A10 to benefit its basketball program. Like the majority of schools without FBS football, basketball is the drivign revenue source. It follows an age-old trend: GA State UPGRADING from the ASun to the CAA, Richmond UPGRADING to the A10 from the CAA, DePaul and Marquette upgrading to the Big East from CUSA. Hope this helps clarify things for you.

Well then, while your intended meaning of "They LEFT the CAA for basketball...like most schools not playing FBS football do" might be a little clearer, the statement now seems disingenuous and narrow.

For instance, it's speculation to presume UR would have left the CAA for the A-10 if the CAA were sponsoring the FB league at the time. It's also speculative to suggest that GSU have left the ASun for the CAA had FB sponsorship (and an automatic FCS conference affiliation that went with it) not been in the back of their minds.

Schools who change conferences typically do so for a multitude of reasons (institutional, competitive, financial, etc.) The vast majority of NCAA schools simply can't afford to allow a single sport, especially a money loser/revenue neutral sport like MBB (see GSU & UR), dictate the direction of the entire AD.

[henfan]

Not true, it has been established that the CAA Football League is a separate entity and all members have equal standing. And Maine, UNH, UMass and URI are founding members. There won't be any cutting block. Members may choose to leave in the future, but I seriously doubt they will be forced out.

All existing CAA all sports members who add football are to be offered membership. So, it was just a formality that ODU and GaStU are coming onboard.

Couldn't be more clearly stated. Well done!xthumbsupx

[bkrownd]

Yeah....no way the CAA is what it currently looks to be in 2012. If none of the current schools go FBS, then the football-only members look to be on the cutting block.

Also, Massachusetts is not a "football-only member".

These 12 team football "conferences" are stupid, though. I'd love to see a split and a new Yankee Conference.

[appfan2008]

too many theories on one subject for me!xshakingmadx

[mainejeff]

Can Maine join the CAA in baseball? *sigh* :(

This whole CAA kicking members out talk is just plain STUPID. It is WISHFUL THINKING on the part of some Southern fans. xnodx

I wouldn't be surprised to see the last one to join (GSU) to be the first one to go (FBS). The only other possibilities that I could see happening are Northeastern, Hofstra, or URI dropping the sport (unlikely).......or possibly adding CAA football members #15 and #16 (Albany and Charlotte would be my picks).

[appfan2008]

Can Maine join the CAA in baseball? *sigh* :(

This whole CAA kicking members out talk is just plain STUPID. It is WISHFUL THINKING on the part of some Southern fans. xnodx

I wouldn't be surprised to see the last one to join (GSU) to be the first one to go (FBS). The only other possibilities that I could see happening are Northeastern, Hofstra, or URI dropping the sport (unlikely).......or possibly adding CAA football members #15 and #16 (Albany and Charlotte would be my picks).

what in the world would you do with 16 football teams???

[GannonFan]

Under this given scenario there are just too many team. If this many teams were in fact in the CAA in the future, the league might want to consider creating an additonal division(s) because it would be a very unbalanced divisional schedule. The max games these guys can play is 12 and with the economy what it is, most teams seem to doing just 11! Plus, I know schools like UNH get a good check from Bowl schools to travel and play in their stadiums, so by potentially forcing more conference games, you would be taking away money from some school that they rely on to compete and field all of their sports.

Never fear, there will never be more than an 8 game mandate in the CAA in terms of conference games. No one is taking away the 3 OOC games that are allowed in a normal 11 game schedule year (you can only play 12 in the few years that the calendar allows, and we are a few years away from the next one, I believe).

[89Hen]

Also, Massachusetts is not a "football-only member".
I'm forgetting another sport?... xconfusedx

[henfan]

Never fear, there will never be more than an 8 game mandate in the CAA in terms of conference games.

Yup. We recall that the league experimented with a 9 game schedule in 2001-2002 but quickly scrapped the practice. Schools wanted the flexibility to schedule 3 noncon games each season.

[GannonFan]

I'm forgetting another sport?... xconfusedx

Isn't UMass coming into the fold for men's lacrosse this year?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

what in the world would you do with 16 football teams???

It's called a championship game. Unfortunately, you can't play in the FCS playoffs if you have one (see: FBS, SWAC).

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Also, Massachusetts is not a "football-only member".

These 12 team football "conferences" are stupid, though. I'd love to see a split and a new Yankee Conference.


I'm forgetting another sport?... xconfusedx

I think he's alluding to the CAA Football League being a football only league. Nobody is a football only member, everybody is a member of a football only league. Kind of like the Missouri Valley Football League is separate from the Missouri Valley Conference. ;) xpeacex

[89Hen]

Isn't UMass coming into the fold for men's lacrosse this year?

I think he's alluding to the CAA Football League being a football only league. Nobody is a football only member, everybody is a member of a football only league.
Could be either one. Yes, UMass and Penn State will be CAA men's lax members next year. CT, you could be correct too, but that would be a silly statement IMO. If you're football only, you're football only.

[NU Hound29]

CAA Football is a separate entity than the CAA. While it is quite connected to the CAA its formal name is CAA Football, it has it's own set of by-laws and the like.

2.03 from the handbook

"Active members of the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA") who sponsor Championship Subdivision
championship caliber football shall be entitled to membership in the Conference if desired, by submitting a formal application and operational plan for approval by the Board of Directors no later than July 1, 2017. Membership applications from active CAA members received after July 1, 2017 will be considered in accordance with the process for non-active CAA members seeking membership."

More...
"CAA Football shall be an affiliate of the Colonial Athletic Association, Inc. (“CAA”). The Commissioner of the CAA shall be the Commissioner of CAA Football. "

[GannonFan]

It's called a championship game. Unfortunately, you can't play in the FCS playoffs if you have one (see: FBS, SWAC).

Eh, we just use the FCS playoff system as our championship structure - it's all about the playoffs anyway. xthumbsupx

[Jackman]

All existing CAA all sports members who add football are to be offered membership. So, it was just a formality that ODU and GaStU are coming onboard.

One small detail: When the league was created, CAA members without football were given 10 years to start football programs. After that, they're no longer guaranteed a spot in CAA Football, though they can still be added with a 75% approval vote. So for ODU and GSU, it was just a formality, but it won't necessarily be so in the future.

[bkrownd]

It's called a championship game. Unfortunately, you can't play in the FCS playoffs if you have one (see: FBS, SWAC).

"Championship games" are a farce. A true champion can ONLY be determined by a full 3-month schedule of round-robin regular season games. A conference should be no larger than 8 teams. Not having a real conference championship to play for has been a total bummer. I don't give a hoot about the NCAA tournament.

[Jackman]

Really? I feel the opposite way, I don't care about the conference championship at all, what matters is the playoffs.

[henfan]

A true champion can ONLY be determined by a full 3-month schedule of round-robin regular season games.

With FB, even 3-month schedules of round-robin play don't always/usually result in clear conference champions. Go back to 1947 and the beginning of the Yankee Conference for examples of co-championships, which happened with regularity: '49, '52, '53, '57, '68, '71, '74, '79, '81-'84, '86-'89, and '91.

While nice to add to resumes and record books, conference championships mean very little to most people in the grand scheme of things when compared with national championships.

[NU Hound29]

"Championship games" are a farce. A true champion can ONLY be determined by a full 3-month schedule of round-robin regular season games. A conference should be no larger than 8 teams. Not having a real conference championship to play for has been a total bummer. I don't give a hoot about the NCAA tournament.

Will trade our A-10 title for your NCAA title.

Let me know.

Thanks.

[MR. CHICKEN]

Rocky Hager...17-38 and still coaching!

HE HAS PICTURES.....xnodx......BRAWK/OBAMA!!

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Well then, while your intended meaning of "They LEFT the CAA for basketball...like most schools not playing FBS football do" might be a little clearer, the statement now seems disingenuous and narrow.

For instance, it's speculation to presume UR would have left the CAA for the A-10 if the CAA were sponsoring the FB league at the time. It's also speculative to suggest that GSU have left the ASun for the CAA had FB sponsorship (and an automatic FCS conference affiliation that went with it) not been in the back of their minds.

Schools who change conferences typically do so for a multitude of reasons (institutional, competitive, financial, etc.) The vast majority of NCAA schools simply can't afford to allow a single sport, especially a money loser/revenue neutral sport like MBB (see GSU & UR), dictate the direction of the entire AD.

Actually henfan, in the case of Richmond, we do know that they left the CAA for the A10 due to basketball. The desire for at-large bids and participating in a better basketball conference was something that Jim Miller was fairly vocal about. I didn't realize that the basketball-driven motive behind the Richmond defection wasn't common knowledge though, so I should have clarified.

[GannonFan]

Actually henfan, in the case of Richmond, we do know that they left the CAA for the A10 due to basketball. The desire for at-large bids and participating in a better basketball conference was something that Jim Miller was fairly vocal about. I didn't realize that the basketball-driven motive behind the Richmond defection wasn't common knowledge though, so I should have clarified.

In henfan's defense, he's saying that Richmond didn't have to leave a football conference to go to the A10 for basketball. When they left, they left a purely basketball conference (no football in the CAA then) for another conference that, at the time, they happened to already be in for football, as the A10 was administering the football conference at the time. He's saying if the situation occurred today, with the CAA, rather than the A10 sponsoring football, it may have been different.

[henfan]

In henfan's defense, he's saying that Richmond didn't have to leave a football conference to go to the A10 for basketball. When they left, they left a purely basketball conference (no football in the CAA then) for another conference that, at the time, they happened to already be in for football, as the A10 was administering the football conference at the time. He's saying if the situation occurred today, with the CAA, rather than the A10 sponsoring football, it may have been different.

That's exactly right. The main point being that MBB was only allowed to be a key consideration in UR's decision to switch to the A-10 because their FB affiliation was not being threatened. While the sport might not have captured the imagination & interest of UR's fans as much as hoops has in the last 20 or so years (2008 being the exception!), FB and its comparatively large budget certainly garners key consideration within UR's AD.

[bkrownd]

Will trade our A-10 title for your NCAA title.


The A-10 never had a real "title", which detracted from trying to build real rivalries.

[bkrownd]

While nice to add to resumes and record books, conference championships mean very little to most people in the grand scheme of things when compared with national championships.

That's because "most people" aren't true football fans. Conference rivalries and conference championships are the bread-and-butter of real football.

[GannonFan]

The A-10 never had a real "title", which detracted from trying to build real rivalries.

No rivalries??? There are rivalries galore in the CAA, in the A10 before it, and the Yankee before that. And often there were no real "titles".

[Jackman]

We've been playing New Hampshire since 1897. Whatever amount of rivalry that was meant to exist would have happened by now.

NFL teams don't play a round-robin within their own conferences, let alone the league. The league still seems to go over well with the fans. Maybe CAA Football should just expand to 32 members, skip the NCAA tourney and hold its own playoff. Invite the top halves of the SoCon, MVC, Big Sky and Southland, and that covers almost everyone we'd usually play after the 1st round anyway. Might even get a half-decent TV contract with that much market spread. It's basically what the BCS is doing, minus the playoff.

[DFW HOYA]

Talking about a CAA split is like the people who go on and on about a Big East split--somehow the schools keep it together because the positives far outweigh the negatives.

So it is whether the CAA is 12, 14, or even 16 teams down the road. While there may be some interest in a NY-centric league around teams like Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham, and Hofstra, the league as a whole will survive and you won't be seeing a Villanova, Richmond, or UMass give up what they have for an untested commodity.

Unless a realistic I-A option is available for these schools in the East, the CAA will continue to have roots for these schools.

[Tribe4SF]

Talking about a CAA split is like the people who go on and on about a Big East split--somehow the schools keep it together because the positives far outweigh the negatives.

So it is whether the CAA is 12, 14, or even 16 teams down the road. While there may be some interest in a NY-centric league around teams like Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham, and Hofstra, the league as a whole will survive and you won't be seeing a Villanova, Richmond, or UMass give up what they have for an untested commodity.

Unless a realistic I-A option is available for these schools in the East, the CAA will continue to have roots for these schools.

Agree completely. PL, and NEC fans spend alot of time speculating about what a CAA realignment might mean for them down the road. As you correctly point out, the CAA members have a known commodity, and it's not surprising that others search for scenarios that might allow them to tap into that.

[henfan]

That's because "most people" aren't true football fans. Conference rivalries and conference championships are the bread-and-butter of real football.

I don't know that there's any official criteria for determining who is or isn't a 'true' fan. What I do know is that, while conference rivalries and conference championships will always be important to FCS FB, few would trade a win over a key rival or a conference championship for a national championship. I speculate that many, if not most, players, coaches & administrators would agree.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Talking about a CAA split is like the people who go on and on about a Big East split--somehow the schools keep it together because the positives far outweigh the negatives.

So it is whether the CAA is 12, 14, or even 16 teams down the road. While there may be some interest in a NY-centric league around teams like Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham, and Hofstra, the league as a whole will survive and you won't be seeing a Villanova, Richmond, or UMass give up what they have for an untested commodity.

Unless a realistic I-A option is available for these schools in the East, the CAA will continue to have roots for these schools.

I appreciate the perspective that schools do what's best for themselves, but you can't compare the two. Big East Basketball may be a monstrosity, but it's a monstrosity that has a conference tournament to determine a conference champion. CAA football has no way to determine its champion on the field since it's unwilling to give up its chance at a FCS national championship to do so.

[bluehenbillk]

I appreciate the perspective that schools do what's best for themselves, but you can't compare the two. Big East Basketball may be a monstrosity, but it's a monstrosity that has a conference tournament to determine a conference champion. CAA football has no way to determine its champion on the field since it's unwilling to give up its chance at a FCS national championship to do so.


Sure you can compare the two, the Big East gets 7-8 teams in the Big Dance & the CAA gets 4-5, both the leaders in their sports. If the Big East can play with 16 in hoops why can't the CAA have 14? Again, you don't hear the Big Sky people complain, it's the wannabes in the East that see the CAA just gobbling up playoff spots, including at-larges that used to be more spread out.

If you wanna join us, try beating us first boys.

[GannonFan]

I appreciate the perspective that schools do what's best for themselves, but you can't compare the two. Big East Basketball may be a monstrosity, but it's a monstrosity that has a conference tournament to determine a conference champion. CAA football has no way to determine its champion on the field since it's unwilling to give up its chance at a FCS national championship to do so.

And what does being a Big East Tournament Champ really mean? Basically, it's a nice recruiting tool and it's a path to a better seed in the real tournament, the NCAA tournament. Hmmm, sounds pretty familiar to how the CAA schools view their conference schedule and their own NCAA FCS Tournament.

We all know that Richmond won the National Title last year. Far fewer people know that JMU won the CAA autobid last year. Just like in the Big East, most people know that UConn and nova made the Final Four - far fewer people remember or know that Louisville won the Big East Tournament - heck, I had to look it up myself and I watched the game. xpeacex

[Native]

... heck, I had to look it up myself and I watched the game. xpeacex

Memory is the second thing to go, GannonFan...xlolx

[GannonFan]

Memory is the second thing to go, GannonFan...xlolx

I'm getting the gray hairs to prove it. I take solace, though, that I'll always be decades younger than OL FU!!! :p

As for not rembering Louisville, honestly, it's hard to remember the champions from all those little tournaments that happened before the one tournament that really mattered. Kinda like how I can name all the FCS/I-AA champs going back a decade or two, but I couldn't tell you who won the CAA/A-10/Yankee conference in any more than 2 or 3 years in the same timeframe. We tend to remember the things that are important more than the trivial things. xthumbsupx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sure you can compare the two, the Big East gets 7-8 teams in the Big Dance & the CAA gets 4-5, both the leaders in their sports....


And what does being a Big East Tournament Champ really mean? Basically, it's a nice recruiting tool and it's a path to a better seed in the real tournament, the NCAA tournament...

I'm sorry, my eyes must be going: is there a regular season Big East champion in basketball, or is there not?

You guys may feel like it doesn't matter, that's perfectly fine. But you can't take one league in a different sport with a champion settled on the court and compare it to one where it's not settled on the field. The issues folks have with CAA football not determining their champion on the field can't be compared to Big East basketball because they do. There are no debates as to who really won the Big East since there's a tournament at the end of the season who tells us who won.

Now, CAA football certainly can come up with some way to determine a "true" CAA champion in football. It just means that they would need to give up playing in the FCS playoffs, just like the SWAC has done, or come up with some creative alternative. But the CAA currently can't have a fair way to determine their champion on the field, while Big East Basketball does.

Of course, you could always look at the GPI... xsmiley_wix

[GannonFan]

I'm sorry, my eyes must be going: is there a regular season Big East champion in basketball, or is there not?

You guys may feel like it doesn't matter, that's perfectly fine. But you can't take one league in a different sport with a champion settled on the court and compare it to one where it's not settled on the field. The issues folks have with CAA football not determining their champion on the field can't be compared to Big East basketball because they do. There are no debates as to who really won the Big East since there's a tournament at the end of the season who tells us who won.

Now, CAA football certainly can come up with some way to determine a "true" CAA champion in football. It just means that they would need to give up playing in the FCS playoffs, just like the SWAC has done, or come up with some creative alternative. But the CAA currently can't have a fair way to determine their champion on the field, while Big East Basketball does.

Of course, you could always look at the GPI... xsmiley_wix

Tell me again, who are these "folks" who have a problem with the CAA determining a champion? Apparently they aren't readily found in the CAA.

And as for Big East basketball, again, what does having a "clear" champion do anyway? When Syracuse came out of nowhere a few years ago to win the title, they still ended up being probably just the 5th or 6th highest seeded Big East team in the NCAA tournament. So apparently that championship meant very little. The Big East doesn't hold a tournament to satisfy the whims of people outside the conference who'd complain about the lack of one if they didn't - they hold a tournament because it makes gobs of money and they can still play in the NCAA tournament. If they didn't make all that money or if the NCAA said they couldn't hold the tournament and still play for the national title, they'd drop that in a heartbeat.

[bluehenbillk]

We could argue about this all day, but I think I can tie it together.

LFN is coming from a Patriot League mentality, where winning the league title is the end-all be-all, simply because it's the only route to the postseason for the league as the at-large bids have been swallowed up by the power leagues, with the CAA leading the pack in that area currently.

Secondly, off my first thought, it's the goal of mostly every Patriot League team at the beginning of the year to win the Patriot League. In the CAA, while winning the CAA is a goal, it's secondary to being National Champs for many of the schools.

[tribe_pride]

Why does anyone outside the CAA care who the CAA champion is or how it is determined anyways? The CAA only gets 1 auto bid just like the rest of the autobid conferences. I have yet to hear a CAA member whine about this and if they have, they are in the minority within the CAA. The CAA members are the only ones who should care.

[93henfan]

Why does anyone outside the CAA care who the CAA champion is or how it is determined anyways? The CAA only gets 1 auto bid just like the rest of the autobid conferences. I have yet to hear a CAA member whine about this and if they have, they are in the minority within the CAA. The CAA members are the only ones who should care.

Maybe we could make them happy by declaring a CAA North and CAA South Champion every year? You always hear the balking about how the CAA champion doesn't play every other CAA team, which is of course mathematically impossible. But like many have said, no one in the CAA cares about winning the CAA. The real goal is to survive the gauntlet and simply get into the playoffs.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Under this given scenario there are just too many team. If this many teams were in fact in the CAA in the future, the league might want to consider creating an additonal division(s) because it would be a very unbalanced divisional schedule. The max games these guys can play is 12 and with the economy what it is, most teams seem to doing just 11! Plus, I know schools like UNH get a good check from Bowl schools to travel and play in their stadiums, so by potentially forcing more conference games, you would be taking away money from some school that they rely on to compete and field all of their sports.Never fear, there will never be more than an 8 game mandate in the CAA in terms of conference games. No one is taking away the 3 OOC games that are allowed in a normal 11 game schedule year (you can only play 12 in the few years that the calendar allows, and we are a few years away from the next one, I believe).

There has been a press release saying that a 3 Division alignment is on the table. There has been some discussion about it over on the CAA boards (not sure about here) - but it does seem to me to be the best route.


One small detail: When the league was created, CAA members without football were given 10 years to start football programs. After that, they're no longer guaranteed a spot in CAA Football, though they can still be added with a 75% approval vote. So for ODU and GSU, it was just a formality, but it won't necessarily be so in the future.

Can anyone confirm this?


Talking about a CAA split is like the people who go on and on about a Big East split--somehow the schools keep it together because the positives far outweigh the negatives.



Which makes me think of my first question:
Is this supposed breakup of the Big East something that has been discussed in reality or is just message board banter and fodder?

I've been hearing this for so long, but I've never seen any actual article, quote, press release, comment, news, note, or anything outside of someone on a message board stating that there will (or might) be some breakup.

Can anyone give me some sort of evidence, that would even give me the inkling that there has been at least a murmur that this breakup will (or might) happen?

[DFW HOYA]

Is this supposed breakup of the Big East something that has been discussed in reality or is just message board banter and fodder?

Banter and fodder. In 2004, a group of Big East I-A athletic directors briefly proposed pursuing a legal settlement to break up the conference; however, one of those schools (Boston College) was actually talking to the ACC on the sly. Since the league expanded in 2005 and the contracts increased, the presidents and AD's are content with the current setup, whose TV deals run through at least 2013. That doesn't preclude message board conspiracy theories, though.

[saint0917]

I say keep the CAA and bring back the Atlantic 10. The CAA is getting just to big, 18 teams and growing. Just to many. xtwocentsx

[CollegeSportsInfo]

In henfan's defense, he's saying that Richmond didn't have to leave a football conference to go to the A10 for basketball. When they left, they left a purely basketball conference (no football in the CAA then) for another conference that, at the time, they happened to already be in for football, as the A10 was administering the football conference at the time. He's saying if the situation occurred today, with the CAA, rather than the A10 sponsoring football, it may have been different.

Oh, gotcha, thanks! On the same page now.

Well, I think that might be the perception since fans see "A10" or "CAA" as "sponsorship" and make the assumption that it's the CAA. But just like when the A10 "sponsored" football, each league member is a full member. This thread has cleared up any misconceptions about the power members of the league hold and that they are indeed all equal members. So JMU could leave tomorrow for the A10 and they'd still be part of the CAA Football.

Since Richmond was a "full football member" of the A10/Yankee prior to joining the A10 for basketball/other sports, it would be no different than if that league were called the CAA/Yankee since the Richmond motives were driven by basketball.


If we're going to discuss complete hypotheticals, then I'll say this: the Richmond move to the A10 was straight forward...it was for basketball as the A10 was a huge step up from the CAA (which they proved to their fans with their at-large bid). So in a hypothetical scenario in which the CAA had a football league of ONLY CAA ALL-SPORT schools (like the Socon, Southland, etc), then I think Miller would have still pulled the trigger and Richmond WOULD have moved to the A10. My reasoning is because if the CAA was an ALL-SPORTS MEMBERS ONLY football league, there would be a number of football programs out there in 2001 that would have likely KEPT the existing league and auto-bid: Maine, UNH, Northeastern, UMass, URI, Villanova to name a few. so regardless of the situation, Richmond would have had a strong football home while benefiting their basketball program.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Talking about a CAA split is like the people who go on and on about a Big East split--somehow the schools keep it together because the positives far outweigh the negatives.

So it is whether the CAA is 12, 14, or even 16 teams down the road. While there may be some interest in a NY-centric league around teams like Albany, Stony Brook, Fordham, and Hofstra, the league as a whole will survive and you won't be seeing a Villanova, Richmond, or UMass give up what they have for an untested commodity.

Unless a realistic I-A option is available for these schools in the East, the CAA will continue to have roots for these schools.

The real benefit of a 14 or 16 member CAA, is for the rest of FCS...perhaps more than the CAA schools. The rest of you get the chance to earn an at-large that a CAA split would take away via an auto-bid. So from the CAA, "you're welcome".

[BearsCountry]

Which makes me think of my first question:
Is this supposed breakup of the Big East something that has been discussed in reality or is just message board banter and fodder?

I've been hearing this for so long, but I've never seen any actual article, quote, press release, comment, news, note, or anything outside of someone on a message board stating that there will (or might) be some breakup.

Can anyone give me some sort of evidence, that would even give me the inkling that there has been at least a murmur that this breakup will (or might) happen?

I believe there is a document that in 2010 allows them to split if they want. I would have to check out the Big East forum I believe they have it somewhere on there. Majority of it is message board, sports talk radio, newspaper talk but they can if they want to. If a split happens the biggest losers would be Georgetown and Villanova IMO. They have the strongest programs that dont sponsor FBS football and it would suck for them the most.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Banter and fodder. In 2004, a group of Big East I-A athletic directors briefly proposed pursuing a legal settlement to break up the conference; however, one of those schools (Boston College) was actually talking to the ACC on the sly. Since the league expanded in 2005 and the contracts increased, the presidents and AD's are content with the current setup, whose TV deals run through at least 2013. That doesn't preclude message board conspiracy theories, though.

Indeed. The split was closer to happening than people thought. The proposed vote looked like it would go in favor of a split as both sides saw potential benefits. It's no secret that the basketball-only schools were not entirely in favor of Big East football to begin with. Syracuse and BC were the only football schools that were part of the core group...UConn upgraded football later. The big East basketball schools made concessions over the years for the football schools, a BIG one being Rutgers, WVU and the Virginia Tech joining from the A10. The basketball schools majority were not in favor of these additions as they felt it weakened the basketball product. It was becoming clear that football had advanced to the forefront of the league, in reality the football schools.

The proposed split was indeed distracted by a series or issues: first the mentioned BC role. Then came the Virginia Tech defection after the initial ACC lawsuit was brought forward.

But the split had legs before those legal issues. The football schools made the moves they were looking at with Louisville, cincy and USF. Temple was rumored to be back in the mix but I haven't had anything confirmed from that timeframe.
On the basketball side, the CUSA additions were still the top targets with DePaul and Marquette. Xavier was right there as well. Georgetown made a push for Richmond to be included while Providence did the same for UMass. There were more than just internal discussions...but in the end, the split was put on hold.

2010 is the final year for the "get out of jail free" card (http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2009/05/big-east-to-split-or-not-to-split.html) for the football schools should they leave. But with the economy in it's current condition, the TV contracts look to remain the same. A split will happen only if the football schools can get a deal with a higher per-school payout for basketball and football. But with less advertising dollars spent, networks aren't going to commit those dollars.

[Jackman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackman
One small detail: When the league was created, CAA members without football were given 10 years to start football programs. After that, they're no longer guaranteed a spot in CAA Football, though they can still be added with a 75% approval vote. So for ODU and GSU, it was just a formality, but it won't necessarily be so in the future.
Can anyone confirm this?

Did the Georgia State fans not receive their official copy of the CAA Football Handbook (http://www.caasports.com/fls/8500/supportfiles/Handbook/FB/08CAA_FOOTBALL_HANDBOOK_web.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=8500)? It's required reading for all newcomers. Regarding your specific question, skip ahead to Section 2.03 and the second sentence of Section 2.05 for the answer. I'd also save a copy of the .pdf on your hard drive, you never know when they might take this down from the site or put it in the private section.

[URMite]

Maybe we could make them happy by declaring a CAA North and CAA South Champion every year? You always hear the balking about how the CAA champion doesn't play every other CAA team, which is of course mathematically impossible. But like many have said, no one in the CAA cares about winning the CAA. The real goal is to survive the gauntlet and simply get into the playoffs.

Is there anything that says we are required to declare our best team the "champion" (AQ)? How about if we change our bylaws to make it the team with the worse conf record? That way the conf would get one more at-large xthumbsupx xlolx xpeacex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Maybe we could make them happy by declaring a CAA North and CAA South Champion every year?

In effect, this is what the CAA is doing now. Only the divisional champions would have determined their champion on the field. And that's fine with me.

Of course, then, if you're only going to have North and South regular season champions, why not simply separate into two leagues and get two autobids? I mean, how different is a 14-team CAA from two separate 7-team leagues with a scheduling arrangement? The North and South schools already don't play each other all the time, and it will get worse in 2012. Is there a lot of synergy between Hofstra and Towson? Villanova and Maine?

There would be benefits: CAA South wouldn't have to travel to Hofstra, UMass, Maine or New Hampshire anymore, and they could schedule other schools instead (including FBS games, or regional games, affecting the bottom line of the school). And it would also be fair for the rest of FCS: no more "one automatic at-large bid for the other divisional champion" anymore. Plus, the path to the championships would be easy: win your conference, just like almost everybody else, and not depending on coin flips like it has in the past.

CSI, that's what you're missing. If the CAA split and got an autobid, you'd actually free up two at-large bids: the at-large going to the "other CAA divisional champion" and the mandated at-large that now becomes available due the NCAA's rule that only 50% of the field can be autobids. So giving the "CAA North" and "CAA South" different autobids actually gives more access to the playoffs (as at-larges) for everybody, not less. Conversely, when the 14 team CAA takes up one autobid when it should have two, it means less access for everybody, not more.

The idea that the rest of FCS is affected by what the CAA chooses to do, though, is something that seems to have escaped folks on here again and again. Maybe, CSI, you could enlighten them. xrolleyesx

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Banter and fodder. In 2004, a group of Big East I-A athletic directors briefly proposed pursuing a legal settlement to break up the conference; however, one of those schools (Boston College) was actually talking to the ACC on the sly. Since the league expanded in 2005 and the contracts increased, the presidents and AD's are content with the current setup, whose TV deals run through at least 2013. That doesn't preclude message board conspiracy theories, though.


I believe there is a document that in 2010 allows them to split if they want. I would have to check out the Big East forum I believe they have it somewhere on there. Majority of it is message board, sports talk radio, newspaper talk but they can if they want to. If a split happens the biggest losers would be Georgetown and Villanova IMO. They have the strongest programs that dont sponsor FBS football and it would suck for them the most.


Indeed. The split was closer to happening than people thought. The proposed vote looked like it would go in favor of a split as both sides saw potential benefits. It's no secret that the basketball-only schools were not entirely in favor of Big East football to begin with. Syracuse and BC were the only football schools that were part of the core group...UConn upgraded football later. The big East basketball schools made concessions over the years for the football schools, a BIG one being Rutgers, WVU and the Virginia Tech joining from the A10. The basketball schools majority were not in favor of these additions as they felt it weakened the basketball product. It was becoming clear that football had advanced to the forefront of the league, in reality the football schools.

The proposed split was indeed distracted by a series or issues: first the mentioned BC role. Then came the Virginia Tech defection after the initial ACC lawsuit was brought forward.

But the split had legs before those legal issues. The football schools made the moves they were looking at with Louisville, cincy and USF. Temple was rumored to be back in the mix but I haven't had anything confirmed from that timeframe.
On the basketball side, the CUSA additions were still the top targets with DePaul and Marquette. Xavier was right there as well. Georgetown made a push for Richmond to be included while Providence did the same for UMass. There were more than just internal discussions...but in the end, the split was put on hold.

2010 is the final year for the "get out of jail free" card (http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2009/05/big-east-to-split-or-not-to-split.html) for the football schools should they leave. But with the economy in it's current condition, the TV contracts look to remain the same. A split will happen only if the football schools can get a deal with a higher per-school payout for basketball and football. But with less advertising dollars spent, networks aren't going to commit those dollars.

Thank you! After all of these years, finally some concrete information.


Did the Georgia State fans not receive their official copy of the CAA Football Handbook (http://www.caasports.com/fls/8500/supportfiles/Handbook/FB/08CAA_FOOTBALL_HANDBOOK_web.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=8500)? It's required reading for all newcomers. Regarding your specific question, skip ahead to Section 2.03 and the second sentence of Section 2.05 for the answer. I'd also save a copy of the .pdf on your hard drive, you never know when they might take this down from the site or put it in the private section.

Definitely will need to save a copy of that!

[henfan]

There would be benefits: CAA South wouldn't have to travel to Hofstra, UMass, Maine or New Hampshire anymore, and they could schedule other schools instead (including FBS games, or regional games, affecting the bottom line of the school). And it would also be fair for the rest of FCS: no more "one automatic at-large bid for the other divisional champion" anymore. Plus, the path to the championships would be easy: win your conference, just like almost everybody else, and not depending on coin flips like it has in the past.

The reasons are multitude why splitting up is a bad idea and why it isn't likely to happen any time soon. Hofstra and NU are CAA for all sports (except hockey for NU, of course), so it's only natural that they would want to continue FB rivalries with their conference bros in the CAA South and vice versa. Similarly, UR is not going to want to give up playing their A-10 bros UMass & URI. UD also has long rivalries with UMaine, UNH and UMass. Neither side is interested in surrending that. Trying to arrange those deals as noncon games is very difficult, given the financial pressures these schools are under.

This is not a fairness issue to the rest of the FCS, so don't be silly. CAA teams are awarded at-large bids because they do the things on the field to deserve them. The CAA's recent playoff record is all the vindication the PSC needs. The Patriot League teams will get the bids they deserve based on their body of work during the regular season; same as the CAA and every other league.

BTW, since 1978, how many Yankee/A-10/CAA autobids have been determined by a coin flip?xwhistlex

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

And even if the AQ was decided by a coin flip, I betcha the loser of the coin toss got an at-large bid AND deserved it! Not determining a champion on the field is not putting undeserving teams in the playoffs!! Give us a break LFN!

There is no proof of de-facto at large bids going to the "other division champion". They've always deserved the at large bid! And there have been years where one division had no playoff bids (1995, 1996, 1997). Please LFN, document a year when the South or North Champion was given an at large bid they didn't deserve. I just looked at the standings for 2004 (when the A-10 re-instated divisions, had ended in 1998) forward and I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Don't forget Maine wasn't the North Champ last season, UNH was! And UNH wasn't the North Champ in 2007, UMass was. And they tied with Richmond for the overall crown -- please don't try to tell us UMass and Richmond didn't both belong in the playoffs! xrolleyesx And before you change your tune to the second place North team "automatically" getting an at large, don't forget the next team into the playoffs both years were CAA teams!!!! Even if I humor you and say some preference was given to second place in a selection decision, it didn't keep a team from the Patriot, NEC, MEAC, OVC, Big South, etc. out of the playoffs! It was one CAA team being chosen over one from the other division.


The idea that the rest of FCS is affected by what the CAA chooses to do, though, is something that seems to have escaped folks on here again and again. Maybe, CSI, you could enlighten them.

Nothing is escaping folks because there is no credence to your theories. Go back and re-read all the rebuttal the last time you pontificated on this subject. Your arguments were shot down by multiple posters and IIRC no one came to your defense. CAA teams are earning their at large bids based on their performance in the playoffs, against FBS teams and against OOC opponents.

[ur2k]

Its always great to see that the majority of the people calling for the breaking up of the CAA are non-CAA fans. I'm still not sure of their reasons for it besides the old "It's too big" argument.

This group of schools have been playing together for so long that unless a truly better arrangement comes along for any of the schools, don't expect any major changes. I haven't seen a better arrangement proposed throughout all of these discussions that have popped up every few months.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nothing is escaping folks because there is no credence to your theories.

Except for the inconvenient fact that the commissioner of the CAA himself is wondering what to do with so many teams, and coaches and ADs have been discussing the situation.


Go back and re-read all the rebuttal the last time you pontificated on this subject. Your arguments were shot down by multiple posters and IIRC no one came to your defense. CAA teams are earning their at large bids based on their performance in the playoffs, against FBS teams and against OOC opponents.


Its always great to see that the majority of the people calling for the breaking up of the CAA are non-CAA fans. I'm still not sure of their reasons for it besides the old "It's too big" argument.

The CAA is earning their at-large bids - that's not at issue. The issue is that the CAA is so big they are violating what it means to be a conference, i.e. with a proper champion. Autobids were not designed for conferences that are so big they should be playing a championship game to find out the real winner.

What's funny is I'll type that and then people will continue to say "Gee, I'm really not sure of his reasons." xrolleyesx

[henfan]

The CAA is earning their at-large bids - that's not at issue. The issue is that the CAA is so big they are violating what it means to be a conference, i.e. with a proper champion.

Which NCAA by-law is the CAA violating exactly by being of a particular size? Not Bylaw 3.3 of the D-I Manual, which deals specifically with conference eligibility issues. The NCAA has no minimum or maximum requirement for the number of members in order to be considered a conference. It does have minimums for conferences who desire NCAA voting rights & post-season access. Further, the NCAA does not require round-robin play or a conference championship in order to be considered a conference.


Autobids were not designed for conferences that are so big they should be playing a championship game to find out the real winner.

The NCAA D-I Bylaws don't support you here either:

"31.3.4.1 Requirements—Division Championship. To be eligible for automatic qualification in a Division Championship, a member conference must meet the following requirements... (d) In championship subdivision football, football-playing conferences that subdivide into five or more teams are required to conduct a single round-robin competition within each division and develop a formula for determination of the conference champion, which must be approved by the Division I Football Championship Committee prior to the start of the season. A postseason championship game is not required."

The CAA has subdivided into two divisions and developed a formula for determining its conference champion, which the NCAA finds perfectly acceptable for the purposes of awarding the autobid.

Now, you may not personally like the size of the league or the league's formula for determining its champion. That's fine and we get it... ad nausem. But to suggest the CAA is violating the letter or spirit of NCAA rules or that the NCAA didn't design autobid for leagues who don't conduct round robin play is just plain wrong.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Its always great to see that the majority of the people calling for the breaking up of the CAA are non-CAA fans. I'm still not sure of their reasons for it besides the old "It's too big" argument.

This group of schools have been playing together for so long that unless a truly better arrangement comes along for any of the schools, don't expect any major changes. I haven't seen a better arrangement proposed throughout all of these discussions that have popped up every few months.

The only real positives to (2) smaller leagues rather than 1 14 team conferences:

* travel: if you one league that is Maine to NY/PA and the other from Delaware to Georgia, you save on travel. Figure if you have (2) 7-9 team leagues, you've got 6-8 closer conference games and room for more OOC games. Schools could choose from local schools or former mates from the other conference.

* rivalries: if you have Maine, UNH, NU, UMass, URI, Albany, Stonybrook, Hofstra and Fordham in a league as the only members, you increase the chance for better local rivalries. All the games will matter as all league members would play each other.


As a UMass fan, I'd care just as much for football in this league as I would in the CAA. One bonus would be that more people in the area could travel for road games.

Maine
UNH
NU
UMass
URI
Albany
Stonybrook
Hofstra
Fordham

[GannonFan]

Except for the inconvenient fact that the commissioner of the CAA himself is wondering what to do with so many teams, and coaches and ADs have been discussing the situation.

And where in all those ruminations is the notion that they should just break the conference up? They're talking about scheduling arrangements and divisional alignment - they're not talking about how to set up America East/A10 as an alternate league or how to handle Fordham and the PL issues.




The CAA is earning their at-large bids - that's not at issue. The issue is that the CAA is so big they are violating what it means to be a conference, i.e. with a proper champion. Autobids were not designed for conferences that are so big they should be playing a championship game to find out the real winner.

What's funny is I'll type that and then people will continue to say "Gee, I'm really not sure of his reasons." xrolleyesx

What the heck does that mean? "Violating what it means to be a conference"? Where do you come up with this stuff? You wonder why people question your reasoning and then you come up with, for the lack of a better word, tripe like that.

Autobids were designed so that any conference with an autobid get at least one team into the playoffs, more if they deserve it, as you concede the CAA has done historically. And of course, in all your arguments, you fail to note or acknowledge the point, that the CAA's autobid has, since probably 1988, not gone to a team that without the autobid would not have made the playoffs. So even without a "proper champion", the CAA's awarding of the autobid has not been detrimental to anyone, and has almost always (past two decades at least) gone to a team deserving of the playoffs.

So how about you take a 2nd run at those reasons and come up with something that makes some sense for all your emphatic negativeness towards the CAA?

[BearsCountry]

The only real positives to (2) smaller leagues rather than 1 14 team conferences:

* travel: if you one league that is Maine to NY/PA and the other from Delaware to Georgia, you save on travel. Figure if you have (2) 7-9 team leagues, you've got 6-8 closer conference games and room for more OOC games. Schools could choose from local schools or former mates from the other conference.

* rivalries: if you have Maine, UNH, NU, UMass, URI, Albany, Stonybrook, Hofstra and Fordham in a league as the only members, you increase the chance for better local rivalries. All the games will matter as all league members would play each other.


As a UMass fan, I'd care just as much for football in this league as I would in the CAA. One bonus would be that more people in the area could travel for road games.

Maine
UNH
NU
UMass
URI
Albany
Stonybrook
Hofstra
Fordham

This is the ideal setup but the only drawback I see for UMass and New Hampshire is OOC. You are adding your OOC games as your conference games basically.

[GannonFan]

The only real positives to (2) smaller leagues rather than 1 14 team conferences:

* travel: if you one league that is Maine to NY/PA and the other from Delaware to Georgia, you save on travel. Figure if you have (2) 7-9 team leagues, you've got 6-8 closer conference games and room for more OOC games. Schools could choose from local schools or former mates from the other conference.

* rivalries: if you have Maine, UNH, NU, UMass, URI, Albany, Stonybrook, Hofstra and Fordham in a league as the only members, you increase the chance for better local rivalries. All the games will matter as all league members would play each other.


As a UMass fan, I'd care just as much for football in this league as I would in the CAA. One bonus would be that more people in the area could travel for road games.


Well, the travel is a weird argument. Under the current alignment, in the CAA, teams in the North have to travel South once in one year, and twice in the next year. Three trips south in two years is not terribly much, in the grand scheme of things. And considering the number of UMass fans who travel to Newark once every 4 years, apparently it's not a big deal to travel 4-5 hours South.

And in a smaller league, with the OOC games now being more, you may end up having to travel South anyway to fill the OOC schedule. And if that happens, nothing has changed, and maybe worse, you may end up having to travel more just to fill the schedule.

[spdram]

I believe the only reason the non-CAA fans keep bringing this up is they hope for a breakup so they can possibly pick up some of the CAA schools for their conferences.

[mainejeff]

As a UMass fan, I'd care just as much for football in this league as I would in the CAA. One bonus would be that more people in the area could travel for road games.

Maine
UNH
NU
UMass
URI
Albany
Stonybrook
Hofstra
Fordham

I'd rather add Delaware and Towson and subtract 2 of 3 among Northeastern/Fordham/Hofstra.

[Uncle Buck]

I'd rather add Delaware and Towson and subtract 2 of 3 among Northeastern/Fordham/Hofstra.

Why is that? I know UD has a strong resume, but what's the rational for it?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Henfan and GannonFan, great replies! Glad I was off at work because you both provided better rebuttals than I would have come up. xbowx

CSI, you have three UMass posters on this forum who agree with you about that proposed football alignment, the guy from Hilo, Saint and Old Cage Fan IIRC. But I'm not sure the majority of your fans and the school administration agree with you. If you really want that football league, then you're (UMass) going to have to lead a movement to form an all sports league with those nine schools. Hofstra and Northeastern aren't leaving CAA Football otherwise. They can't be an affiliate in another football league as long as they're all sports members of the CAA. Nor will they want to be. That league isn't happening unless UMass makes it happen.

JMHO, but basketball is and will be the keystone of the UMass all sports affiliation. Would UMass be willing to balance basketball with football for their all sports affiliation? I'm guessing "no" unless it is a low level FBS league like I've read LastMinuteman discuss on the CAAZone.

[Husky Alum]

I'd rather add Delaware and Towson and subtract 2 of 3 among Northeastern/Fordham/Hofstra.

And I'd rather be 6'5 and 210 lbs.

Neither your scenario or mine will ever likely happen.

xlolx

[Seawolf97]

This is the ideal setup but the only drawback I see for UMass and New Hampshire is OOC. You are adding your OOC games as your conference games basically.

Yes and no. Nine teams gives you 8 conference games each, add 1 FBS game a season plus maybe a SoCon, Big South or a Youngstown St type game . Maybe an IVY. You really only need 2 FCS non conference games to fill a schedule. To benefit with a conference like this and reduce travel costs and maintain some rivalries everyone would have to change a little. Hey there is no rule says you cant play 2 FBS teams either. That leaves 1 FCS slot to fill and two paychecks.
It could work.

[Tribe4SF]

Which NCAA by-law is the CAA violating exactly by being of a particular size? Not Bylaw 3.3 of the D-I Manual, which deals specifically with conference eligibility issues. The NCAA has no minimum or maximum requirement for the number of members in order to be considered a conference. It does have minimums for conferences who desire NCAA voting rights & post-season access. Further, the NCAA does not require round-robin play or a conference championship in order to be considered a conference.



The NCAA D-I Bylaws don't support you here either:

"31.3.4.1 Requirements—Division Championship. To be eligible for automatic qualification in a Division Championship, a member conference must meet the following requirements... (d) In championship subdivision football, football-playing conferences that subdivide into five or more teams are required to conduct a single round-robin competition within each division and develop a formula for determination of the conference champion, which must be approved by the Division I Football Championship Committee prior to the start of the season. A postseason championship game is not required."

The CAA has subdivided into two divisions and developed a formula for determining its conference champion, which the NCAA finds perfectly acceptable for the purposes of awarding the autobid.

Now, you may not personally like the size of the league or the league's formula for determining its champion. That's fine and we get it... ad nausem. But to suggest the CAA is violating the letter or spirit of NCAA rules or that the NCAA didn't design autobid for leagues who don't conduct round robin play is just plain wrong.

What that section does seem to preclude is a break into 3 divisions once Georgia State comes in, since one of the divisions would have only four members. That idea has been put forth, but it seems likely we will go to two 7-team divisions. Whichever division gets Georgia State is not going to like it. If they're placed in the South, Villanova likely gets bumped to the North, messing up a number of popular rivalries. What Georgia State lacks in commonality with the Southern schools is only amplified with those in the North.

I don't know why Georgia State landed in the CAA, but with football coming on, the Southern Conference just seems far more logical. Every Socon football school is closer to Atlanta than any of the CAA schools.

[mainejeff]

Why is that? I know UD has a strong resume, but what's the rational for it?

All publics......stronger support for football......more like-minded goals.

[mainejeff]

What that section does seem to preclude is a break into 3 divisions once Georgia State comes in, since one of the divisions would have only four members. That idea has been put forth, but it seems likely we will go to two 7-team divisions. Whichever division gets Georgia State is not going to like it. If they're placed in the South, Villanova likely gets bumped to the North, messing up a number of popular rivalries. What Georgia State lacks in commonality with the Southern schools is only amplified with those in the North.

I don't know why Georgia State landed in the CAA, but with football coming on, the Southern Conference just seems far more logical. Every Socon football school is closer to Atlanta than any of the CAA schools.

So remind me again why Delaware and/or Villanova holds sway over the other 12 schools??? Last time I checked, 12 beats 2........and I doubt that Delaware will leave the CAA over this......or Villanova for that matter (and even if they did, there are schools like Albany and Fordham waiting in the wings).

[Seawolf97]

Henfan and GannonFan, great replies! Glad I was off at work because you both provided better rebuttals than I would have come up. xbowx

CSI, you have three UMass posters on this forum who agree with you about that proposed football alignment, the guy from Hilo, Saint and Old Cage Fan IIRC. But I'm not sure the majority of your fans and the school administration agree with you. If you really want that football league, then you're (UMass) going to have to lead a movement to form an all sports league with those nine schools. Hofstra and Northeastern aren't leaving CAA Football otherwise. They can't be an affiliate in another football league as long as they're all sports members of the CAA. Nor will they want to be. That league isn't happening unless UMass makes it happen.

JMHO, but basketball is and will be the keystone of the UMass all sports affiliation. Would UMass be willing to balance basketball with football for their all sports affiliation? I'm guessing "no" unless it is a low level FBS league like I've read LastMinuteman discuss on the CAAZone.

Dont overlook lacrosse either. StonyBrook/Albany/Hofstra/UMass all field strong
mens lacrosse programs which are getting better . Those schools would have to adjust for that sport also probably outside this imaginary conference. Hofstra hosted a quarterfinal series this year and StonyBrook plays host in 2010 as teams move toward the D-1 Title. That is a media and financial event for both programs they may not want to sacrifice in the future. So alot has to be considered before any new conference or hydrid CAA goes forward.

[Seawolf97]

So remind me again why Delaware and/or Villanova holds sway over the other 12 schools??? Last time I checked, 12 beats 2........and I doubt that Delaware will leave the CAA over this......or Villanova for that matter (and even if they did, there are schools like Albany and Fordham waiting in the wings).

Plus this arrangement would give you a footprint in Boston, Albany and New York/Long Island . It can have potential if managed right.

[Tribe4SF]

So remind me again why Delaware and/or Villanova holds sway over the other 12 schools??? Last time I checked, 12 beats 2........and I doubt that Delaware will leave the CAA over this......or Villanova for that matter (and even if they did, there are schools like Albany and Fordham waiting in the wings).

I don't think they will hold sway, but the unhappiness will not be from just those two. Towson, JMU, Richmond and W&M will all lament the loss of an annual game with Villanova. I think the Villanova switch will be the choice, but they will not like it, and neither will I.

The breakout is not 12-2, but more like 8-6. In the end, practicality is what will hold sway. Unless some of the Northern members are willing to accept Georgia State, one of the South members has got to switch.

[Jackman]

As a UMass fan, I'd care just as much for football in this league as I would in the CAA. One bonus would be that more people in the area could travel for road games.

Maine
UNH
NU
UMass
URI
Albany
Stonybrook
Hofstra
Fordham

But we already play all of those teams, except we swap Fordham for Holy Cross and I think we only play the SUNYs at home. Who else are we going to play that would make travel costs significantly lower for us than just remaining in the 14 member CAA? The Ivies aren't interested in playing us. And who are we going to get to come to Amherst without a return game and insure we have 6 home games? Maybe we could bring in Bryant or CCSU every single year, but we'll be in a bidding war with the other Northeast schools to pay them to play us. So by bringing the SUNYs into our new conference, the buy-game market would likely take an unfavorable turn, cutting into the travel cost savings.

Moreover, the 14 member CAA isn't going to be as expensive as people think, at least not for UMass. In a 7+7 alignment with Villanova going north, that's going to be 4 home games, 3 bus trips and only 1 required plane trip, unless the interdivisional away game is Delaware, in which case we could bus that too. I think we usually fly to Delaware, but they're the exact same distance from us as Maine and we usually bus that game. In a 5-4-5 three division structure, it would be 1 plane trip every season except for every fourth year when Towson is an away game. Whereas in the current 12 member CAA, we can get stuck with 2 plane trips every other season when we play 2 away games against the South. So we're likely looking at less travel in the 14 member structure, or at least no additional travel compared to what we currently do. So travel costs would not be a good reason for UMass to form a breakaway conference. Combined with the increase in buy-game costs, lower TV exposure, a good possibility of lower ticket sales and the cost of starting up an entire new conference administration, a "New Yankee" conference could easily be a more expensive venture than staying put, and would certainly be more risky.

[Tribe4SF]

But we already play all of those teams, except we swap Fordham for Holy Cross and I think we only play the SUNYs at home. Who else are we going to play that would make travel costs significantly lower for us than just remaining in the 14 member CAA? The Ivies aren't interested in playing us. And who are we going to get to come to Amherst without a return game and insure we have 6 home games? Maybe we could bring in Bryant or CCSU every single year, but we'll be in a bidding war with the other Northeast schools to pay them to play us. So by bringing the SUNYs into our new conference, the buy-game market would likely take an unfavorable turn, cutting into the travel cost savings.

Moreover, the 14 member CAA isn't going to be as expensive as people think, at least not for UMass. In a 7+7 alignment with Villanova going north, that's going to be 4 home games, 3 bus trips and only 1 required plane trip, unless the interdivisional away game is Delaware, in which case we could bus that too. I think we usually fly to Delaware, but they're the exact same distance from us as Maine and we usually bus that game. In a 5-4-5 three division structure, it would be 1 plane trip every season except for every fourth year when Towson is an away game. Whereas in the current 12 member CAA, we can get stuck with 2 plane trips every other season when we play 2 away games against the South. So we're likely looking at less travel in the 14 member structure, or at least no additional travel compared to what we currently do. So travel costs would not be a good reason for UMass to form a breakaway conference. Combined with the increase in buy-game costs, lower TV exposure, a good possibility of lower ticket sales and the cost of starting up an entire new conference administration, a "New Yankee" conference could easily be a more expensive venture than staying put, and would certainly be more risky.

The 5-4-5 alignment doesn't seem like a possibility unless the NCAA changes their policy on conference setups.

The guaranteed increase in flights goes to those teams in whichever division Georgia State lands. It's a plane ride for them, or their opponent, in every conference game they'll play.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

What that section does seem to preclude is a break into 3 divisions once Georgia State comes in, since one of the divisions would have only four members. That idea has been put forth, but it seems likely we will go to two 7-team divisions. Whichever division gets Georgia State is not going to like it. If they're placed in the South, Villanova likely gets bumped to the North, messing up a number of popular rivalries. What Georgia State lacks in commonality with the Southern schools is only amplified with those in the North.

I don't know why Georgia State landed in the CAA, but with football coming on, the Southern Conference just seems far more logical. Every Socon football school is closer to Atlanta than any of the CAA schools.

When GaStU joined the CAA, they didn't have football nor do I believe that the plans to start football had been initiated. I'm assuming that the CAA provided GaStU the best opportunity to upgrade conferences.

Now that they have football, alignment in either division is going to be expensive with plane trips required for all four road games. Still, I'd think they'd prefer the South where they'd play five of their all sports members every year rather than two if they're placed in the North. But frankly, if I'm in Atlanta, I'm guessing that GaSoU, Furman, Samford, UT Chatty, the Citadel, App State and the other SoCon teams are more recognizable to their fans, students and alumni. In today's world with GaStU having football, the SoCon makes a lot more sense than the CAA. But does it matter? Aren't they just using the CAA as a stepping stone to FBS? xconfusedx

[Husky Alum]

I don't know why Georgia State landed in the CAA

From what I was told it was one of 4 (or so reasons):

1. College of Charleston said no.
2. UNH said no (package deal with NU).
3. The CAA didn't want both NU and BU and needed another football team to get the six to take sponsorship from the A-10.

Then..

Once 1-3 happened, the CAA had to think strategically, and find a school that somewhat "fit" the CAA footprint.

4. GSU brought the Atlanta TV market and that's what was most appealing to the CAA at that point.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

"31.3.4.1 Requirements—Division Championship. To be eligible for automatic qualification in a Division Championship, a member conference must meet the following requirements... (d) In championship subdivision football, football-playing conferences that subdivide into five or more teams are required to conduct a single round-robin competition within each division and develop a formula for determination of the conference champion, which must be approved by the Division I Football Championship Committee prior to the start of the season. A postseason championship game is not required."
What that section does seem to preclude is a break into 3 divisions once Georgia State comes in, since one of the divisions would have only four members.

I'm not really seeing how that bylaw precludes the breakup into 3 divisions. The way I'm reading it is if the conference divides into divisions of five or more have to play a round robin schedule within that division. If anything it leaves open the possibility that the middle division doesn't have to have a round robin.

So a GSU schedule would be:
vs. JMU
vs. ODU
vs. UR
vs. W&M
vs. CAA Interdivision
vs. CAA Interdivision
vs. CAA Interdivision
vs. CAA Interdivision
vs. OoC
vs. OoC
vs. OoC
vs. OoC

That's the way I see it. But I don't follow football enough to know if there are any inherent deficiencies with that schedule or way of thinking.

[Tribe4SF]

I'm not really seeing how that bylaw precludes the breakup into 3 divisions. The way I'm reading it is if the conference divides into divisions of five or more have to play a round robin schedule within that division. If anything it leaves open the possibility that the middle division doesn't have to have a round robin.



I doubt that would be the NCAA's interpretation. I think the intent there is to restrict conferences to divisional breakouts of at least 5 teams, and to require a round robin within the divisions.

[andy7171]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I hereby volunteer Towson to move to the CAA North.

[bluehenbillk]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I hereby volunteer Towson to move to the CAA North.

If they go with two-seven team divisions that might happen:

ODU, GSU, W&M, UR, JMU, UD, VU - CAA South
UM, UNH, NU, URI, UMass, HU, TU - CAA North

[danefan]

3 CAA divisions is easy.....

North
UNH
Maine
URI
UMass
Northeastern

Central
Hofstra
Towson
Delaware
Villanova
Albany

South
W&M
ODU
JMU
GSU
Richmond

4 division games.
4 interdivisional games (2 from each division)
3 OOC games

xsmiley_wix

[Jackman]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I hereby volunteer Towson to move to the CAA North.

I don't think they'd go for that. Then we'd be adding a plane trip to every schedule in the CAA North except Hofstra's, while everyone in the CAA South still has to fly to Georgia State. With Atlanta being a major airline hub, I doubt there would be significant savings flying to Baltimore instead. It would probably be more cost efficient just to put Georgia State in the North and have the South members pay the North members for half of our travel costs for that one game, than to put Towson in the North and create two new sets of flight routes.

[andy7171]

3 CAA divisions is easy.....

North
UNH
Maine
URI
UMass
Northeastern

Central
Hofstra
Towson
Delaware
Villanova
Fordham

South
W&M
ODU
JMU
GSU
Richmond

4 division games.
4 interdivisional games (2 from each division)
3 OOC games

xsmiley_wix

I see what you did there. :D

[Jackman]

3 CAA divisions is easy.....

North
UNH
Maine
URI
UMass
Northeastern

Central
Hofstra
Towson
Delaware
Villanova
Albany

South
W&M
ODU
JMU
GSU
Richmond

4 division games.
4 interdivisional games (2 from each division)
3 OOC games

xsmiley_wix

The SUNYs should probably cross their fingers that the Patriot League approves scholarship football before the CAA gets it into their heads to add a 5th member in the Mid-Atlantic region. I think Fordham would win that lottery right now, especially with Villanova and Hofstra being in the same division.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I hereby volunteer Towson to move to the CAA North.

I could more than live with Towson going to the North -- visiting Charm City, especially Fells Point, every other year would be great!! Crab cakes, Natty Boh's with Andy, works for me! (Hope Andy doesn't look into my cup because it will have an Octoberfest not a Natty Boh! ;) xlolx xlolx ) From my UNH point of view, getting TU, UD or VU into the North would be the priority. That would guarantee an annual game with a Mid-Atlantic school.


If they go with two-seven team divisions that might happen:

ODU, GSU, W&M, UR, JMU, UD, VU - CAA South
UM, UNH, NU, URI, UMass, HU, TU - CAA North

Of course if you took the school from the South with the strongest ties and longest history of association to the North schools, then Delaware would move into the North. Yeah, I know all about UD-VU, but think of it this way, you could continue to play every year. Except now two years would be OOC games and Delaware could force Nova to play both games at the Tub. :p xrotatehx :D

Seriously though, based on the past few years, moving either UD or VU to the North would better balance the two divisions competitively.

Excuse me while I go duck out of the way of the Nova replies and 89's disagreement with his Hens going North. Come on 89, we'll treat you well in Durham and I promise Husky Alum will treat you well at Northeastern. Plus, in both cases you get to enjoy some lobster, haddock, clam chowder, steamers or whatever your seafood fancy is!! YorkCountyUNHFan might even make some of his Tailgate Seafood Chowder for you! But it's got to be cooler than the last UNH-Delaware game in Durham!! xnodx

[Jackman]

Oh boy, this quote changes things:


[CAA commissioner Tom Yeager] said that Georgia State's schedule will be spread evenly throughout the conference and not necessarily tilted southern.
Quote taken from here. (http://www.dailypress.com/dp-spt_newcolumn_0614jun14,0,7910239.column)

I'm not sure exactly what that means, but it sounds really, really half-assed.

Someone please dig up a NCAA rule to stop that. I think that means Georgia State wouldn't be a member of either division, and wouldn't play a round-robin schedule against either. That's not allowed, right?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"31.3.4.1 Requirements—Division Championship. To be eligible for automatic qualification in a Division Championship, a member conference must meet the following requirements... (d) In championship subdivision football, football-playing conferences that subdivide into five or more teams are required to conduct a single round-robin competition within each division and develop a formula for determination of the conference champion, which must be approved by the Division I Football Championship Committee prior to the start of the season. A postseason championship game is not required."

The CAA has subdivided into two divisions and developed a formula for determining its conference champion, which the FCS subcommittee currently finds perfectly acceptable for the purposes of awarding the autobid.

Fixed it for you. Next...


I'm not really seeing how that bylaw precludes the breakup into 3 divisions. The way I'm reading it is if the conference divides into divisions of five or more have to play a round robin schedule within that division.


I doubt that would be the NCAA's interpretation. I think the intent there is to restrict conferences to divisional breakouts of at least 5 teams, and to require a round robin within the divisions.

Interesting. So if the CAA decided to go to a three-division format, they would need to get approved by the FCS subcommittee prior to the season, which appears to be the threshold that the CAA does not want to cross. Even without that happening, maybe it would even start members of said subcommittee staring to ask uncomfortable questions, like: How is this a conference, even with two 7-team divisions? xlolx

That's why the CAA is trying to avoid this discussion at all costs. Who knows - maybe the FCS subcommittee will (correctly, IMO) start to look a bit more closely even at the existing "formula" for two 7-team divisions with no real way to determine the division champion.

So to me, the question is: what will happen when the FCS subcommittee determines that the CAA's "formula" for determining the conference champion is insufficient?

Wait a moment... does that mean it's not only the CAA that needs to care about determining a real conference champion now?

Wait a moment... wasn't that what I was saying all along? xrotatehx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I don't think they'd go for that. Then we'd be adding a plane trip to every schedule in the CAA North except Hofstra's, while everyone in the CAA South still has to fly to Georgia State. With Atlanta being a major airline hub, I doubt there would be significant savings flying to Baltimore instead. It would probably be more cost efficient just to put Georgia State in the North and have the South members pay the North members for half of our travel costs for that one game, than to put Towson in the North and create two new sets of flight routes.

Not sure about that, Baltimore is a non-stop flight on Southwest for UNH and I assume for UMass (out of Hartford) and URI (out of Providence). Northeastern has the option of flying SW out of Manchester or Providence or whatever carrier could offer a better deal out of Boston. Not sure any of us could fly to Atlanta cheaper. Out of Hartford, I'm not sure any other carrier other than Delta goes non-stop into Atlanta. In that scenario the airline usually has high prices for their flights because there is no competition. Doing my research for Ball State, on Delta I could fly cheaper into Indy doing a connection in Cincinnati than I could just going to Cincinnati (on the same flight I would connect from)!! xeekx xeekx xeekx

In addition I much prefer the exposure of playing a Mid-Atlantic school and having a game every two years that is very accessible to the families and friends of all our players from PA and NJ. And we've started adding players from MD to our squad as well. I'm guessing, but I think UNH has more alumni in Baltimore-DC than in Atlanta.

While it's not a factor for UMass or URI, Towson is a former NAC/AE all sports conference mate of UNH and Maine and is obviously a current CAA all sports member with Hofstra and Northeastern as well as being former NAC/AE mates with Towson. They make significantly more sense for four of the current North members than GaStU does.

From my UNH point of view, my choice for the 7th North member would be (1) Delaware (2) Towson (3) Villanova (4) W&M (5) Richmond (6) JMU (7) ODU (8) Georgia State. Quite simply, I can drive to any of the South schools except GaStU for the weekend of a game. Albeit, a long Friday and Sunday of driving for some of them, but I can still drive.

[GannonFan]

Fixed it for you. Next...





Interesting. So if the CAA decided to go to a three-division format, they would need to get approved by the FCS subcommittee prior to the season, which appears to be the threshold that the CAA does not want to cross. Even without that happening, maybe it would even start members of said subcommittee staring to ask uncomfortable questions, like: How is this a conference, even with two 7-team divisions? xlolx

That's why the CAA is trying to avoid this discussion at all costs. Who knows - maybe the FCS subcommittee will (correctly, IMO) start to look a bit more closely even at the existing "formula" for two 7-team divisions with no real way to determine the division champion.

So to me, the question is: what will happen when the FCS subcommittee determines that the CAA's "formula" for determining the conference champion is insufficient?

Wait a moment... does that mean it's not only the CAA that needs to care about determining a real conference champion now?

Wait a moment... wasn't that what I was saying all along? xrotatehx

Seriously, now you're saying that the CAA is worried that the NCAA is going to strike down the conference merely on the basis of its size and you get this insight based upon what? Anything?

If the NCAA even wanted to get into conference makeups, other than what is already written, they would've done so already. Trying to retroactively apply something to the CAA won't fly. There's nothing in the bylaws as they are written today that would disallow the CAA to add a 14th team, so long as they adhere to the rules around divisional play. Heck, the CAA wouldn't even need to break into divisions if they didn't want to. There's nothing that says anything about the limiting of the size of a conference.

You're reaching to try to prove a point that's been refuted time and time again. Is the world flat in your scenario as well? xlolx

[GannonFan]

If they go with two-seven team divisions that might happen:

ODU, GSU, W&M, UR, JMU, UD, VU - CAA South
UM, UNH, NU, URI, UMass, HU, TU - CAA North

It's either going to be that, or it will have Towson and GSU swapped (Towson in the South, GSU in the North). And if they do that, they could always just change the names from North/South to something non-directional (Blue/Red) to avoid the oddity of Georgia being in the North.

All in all, relatively straight forward.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Seriously, now you're saying that the CAA is worried that the NCAA is going to strike down the conference merely on the basis of its size and you get this insight based upon what? Anything?

If the NCAA even wanted to get into conference makeups, other than what is already written, they would've done so already. Trying to retroactively apply something to the CAA won't fly. There's nothing in the bylaws as they are written today that would disallow the CAA to add a 14th team, so long as they adhere to the rules around divisional play. Heck, the CAA wouldn't even need to break into divisions if they didn't want to. There's nothing that says anything about the limiting of the size of a conference.

But it's not retroactive. In 2011, ODU becomes a full CAA member, and GaSt becomes one in 2012. That means two new formulas to determine the conference champion that will have to pass muster.

Like I've said all along, it's all about determining a true conference champion.

xlolx

[whitey]

31.3.4.1 Requirements—Division Championship. To be eligible for automatic qualification in a Division Championship, a member conference must meet the following requirements... (d) In championship subdivision football, football-playing conferences that subdivide into five or more teams are required to conduct a single round-robin competition within each division and develop a formula for determination of the conference champion, which must be approved by the Division I Football Championship Committee prior to the start of the season. A postseason championship game is not required.

So the worst case scenario is the CAA doesn't get an AQ, but gets 5+ team in the playoffs anyway. xlolx

[BearsCountry]

Another thing to consider, does CAA want 2 new startup programs in the same division?

[andy7171]

If the CAA WERE to lose their AQ bid, which of the 5 teams in the '08 playoffs would not get in?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

But it's not retroactive. In 2011, ODU becomes a full CAA member, and GaSt becomes one in 2012. That means two new formulas to determine the conference champion that will have to pass muster.

Like I've said all along, it's all about determining a true conference champion.

xlolx

LFN, you've been whining about a true champion all along, but this is the first time you've brought some by-law into play. That isn't what you've been saying all along. xrolleyesx

Just to play devil's advocate, a couple things could happen. Let's see if it makes LFN any happier.

(1) What if the CAA remains in two divisions then invites more teams because seven team leagues don't make sense (need nine for four home and four away games IMHO) then gets a second AQ, which increases the playoff field to 22 BTW?

(2) What if the CAA had its AQ taken away because they had divisions and an unacceptable formula, they'd still get the same 4-5 teams in the playoffs and probably six once the playoffs expand to 20 teams unless other leagues improve and/or show they deserve a bid over a CAA team by their performance on the field. In effect, nothing would change in the playoff selection other than all CAA teams being at-large selections.

Does anyone other than LFN really think that some formula to determine the CAA AQ is not going to be approved? Or that no matter what formula is derived, a playoff worthy team is going to be selected?

[henfan]

Fixed it for you. Next...

That's why the CAA is trying to avoid this discussion at all costs... So to me, the question is: what will happen when the FCS subcommittee determines that the CAA's "formula" for determining the conference champion is insufficient?

LFN, I caution you about editing my words. I did not choose to write the word 'currently' because I'm aware of A-10/CAA FB history; dare I say, maybe even more aware of it than you.

Given the history of the A-10/CAA league and it's divisional alignment, there's little reason to speculate that the NCAA's FCS subcommittee wouldn't grant the CAA an autobid on the basis that the forumula for determining the conference champion is insufficient. That formula was implemented when the league went to a divisional format in 1993 and only changed slightly during the period from 1999-2003, when the league temporarily suspended the divisional setup. The fact that the NCAA has never objected to the formula in the past is a pretty clear indication that history is on the CAA's side.

Maybe the CAA will change its formula to give the subcommittee a reason to object in future years? The NCAA will answer that question if it ever happens. I'm not sure I understand the reason to speculate on something that might never happen, but whatever. If wild speculation floats your boat, continue on.

As for the discussion of future divisional splits (and scheduling), it's hardly a topic the CAA has avoided. The conference and league schools have been working on since ODU and GSU announced their intentions to field teams. Fortunately, this is not something they have to rush.

Cheers.

[89Hen]

But it's not retroactive. In 2011, ODU becomes a full CAA member, and GaSt becomes one in 2012. That means two new formulas to determine the conference champion that will have to pass muster.

Like I've said all along, it's all about determining a true conference champion.

xlolx
BULLS***

I've already pointed out to you that NO conference can claim to put forth a "true" conference champion every year. EVERY conference has to have tiebreakers and formulas to determine their champ. What happens when Colgage, Lafayette and Lehigh all tie with one loss in conference?

GIVE IT A REST LFN... it's 1,000 to 1 in this debate and you're the 1.

[henfan]

Below is the CAA formula for determining its conference champion. I don't see how adding two teams to the equation will change the formula... but I suppose anything is possible.xlolx


CONFERENCE CHAMPION
4.01 The team with the best conference record based on win-loss percentage shall represent the Conference as the NCAA automatic qualifier.
4.02 In the event of a tie within or outside the division, the following tie-breaker formats will be utilized to determine the Conference automatic qualifier.
4.03 Tie Within Division
1. Head-to-head competition.
2. Division winning percentage.
3. Record versus the highest-placed teams in the division and proceeding down.
4. Record versus the highest placed common opponents in the opposite division and proceeding down.
5. Number of conference road wins.
6. Coin Toss.
4.04 Two team tie Outside the Division
2. Combined record versus all common opponents.
3. Number of conference road wins.
4. Coin Toss.
4.05. 3 or more teams tied Outside the Division
1. Break the divisional tie first under 4.03.
4.06 Tie-Breaker Operating principles
1. All ties are broken in descending order. When arriving at another set of tied teams while comparing records, use each team’s record against the tied teams as a group rather than individually.
2. Once a team has been eliminated at any point, the process reverts back to the beginning with the remaining tied teams. If the remaining teams are all from the same division, then the tie-breaker listed under 4.03 will be used. If outside the division, the tiebreaker under 4.04 or 4.05 will be used.

http://www.caasports.com/fls/8500/supportfiles/Handbook/FB/08CAA_FOOTBALL_HANDBOOK_web.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=8500

[Jackman]

If the CAA WERE to lose their AQ bid, which of the 5 teams in the '08 playoffs would not get in?

If the lost AQ was converted to an extra at large bid, all of the same teams would have gotten in.

If the AQ was instead awarded to a conference that previously didn't have an AQ, Maine wouldn't have made the playoffs in '08, and UNH probably wouldn't have made it in '07.

If, on the other hand, the AQ was awarded to a different conference but we had the 20 team playoff format that's coming in 2010, Maine and UNH still would have made it, and the next teams in probably would have been William & Mary in '08 and maybe Villanova in '07. So probably 6 per year even without an AQ.

[andy7171]

More CAA teams in the post season is going to be an unwanted (to non CAA conferences) but inevitable by product of expanding the field to 20. Won't it be great to have FIVE bids from the CAA South alone? Did I mention I want to be the one to move to the North?

[ur2k]

Not sure about that, Baltimore is a non-stop flight on Southwest for UNH and I assume for UMass (out of Hartford) and URI (out of Providence). Northeastern has the option of flying SW out of Manchester or Providence or whatever carrier could offer a better deal out of Boston. Not sure any of us could fly to Atlanta cheaper. Out of Hartford, I'm not sure any other carrier other than Delta goes non-stop into Atlanta. In that scenario the airline usually has high prices for their flights because there is no competition. Doing my research for Ball State, on Delta I could fly cheaper into Indy doing a connection in Cincinnati than I could just going to Cincinnati (on the same flight I would connect from)!! xeekx xeekx xeekx

In addition I much prefer the exposure of playing a Mid-Atlantic school and having a game every two years that is very accessible to the families and friends of all our players from PA and NJ. And we've started adding players from MD to our squad as well. I'm guessing, but I think UNH has more alumni in Baltimore-DC than in Atlanta.

While it's not a factor for UMass or URI, Towson is a former NAC/AE all sports conference mate of UNH and Maine and is obviously a current CAA all sports member with Hofstra and Northeastern as well as being former NAC/AE mates with Towson. They make significantly more sense for four of the current North members than GaStU does.

From my UNH point of view, my choice for the 7th North member would be (1) Delaware (2) Towson (3) Villanova (4) W&M (5) Richmond (6) JMU (7) ODU (8) Georgia State. Quite simply, I can drive to any of the South schools except GaStU for the weekend of a game. Albeit, a long Friday and Sunday of driving for some of them, but I can still drive.

Would/Does UNH fly commercial or charter for games that can't be driven? I assumed most schools charter since getting 80+ equipment on a commercial flight is a giant pain in the ... My point being do commercial flight rates matter in this discussion?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

4.04 Two team tie Outside the Division
1. Head-to-head competition.
2. Combined record versus all common opponents.
3. Number of conference road wins.
4. Coin Toss.

1. With a 14-team CAA, there will be fewer chances for head-to-head competition (4.04.1), and common opponents to draw from for 4.04.2, increasing the chance it goes to the other tiebreakers.

2. By going to "number of conference road wins" in 4.04.3, New Hampshire might have to be judged by going 1-1 against Top 10 Richmond and JMU on the road, while Delaware played sub-.500 Towson and Hofstra and went 2-0.

Revisiting (1) above, with a 12-team CAA with 2 divisions each team last year played 5 CAA divisional games, 3 cross-divisional games, and 3 "other", giving the 4.04.1 tiebreaker six games to compare. However, a 14-team CAA each team plays 6 CAA divisional games, 2 cross-divisional games and 3 "other", giving them only four common CAA games to compare for the tiebreaker. That's in reality a huge potential difference for comparison.

While every conference needs to go to tiebreakers to determine their champion (or to determine eligibility for their championship game), nobody else does it in this way, nor does any other conference have such a high percentage chance that it goes to "common road conference wins" or a dreaded coin flip - two methods, IMO, that are very unfair.

Even the most vehement of supporters of a two-division CAA have to admit that these tiebreakers are pretty thin, and there's a pretty good chance each year that the autobid winner is determined by the coin flip or 4.04.3.

Now determining the champion of each division - well, that's a pretty solid tiebreaker.

[Jackman]

I've read that Richmond flies charter and UNH flies commercial, for what it's worth.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Would/Does UNH fly commercial or charter for games that can't be driven? I assumed most schools charter since getting 80+ equipment on a commercial flight is a giant pain in the ... My point being do commercial flight rates matter in this discussion?

To the best of my knowledge, UNH has always flown commercial to games at the CAA South schools. Player's parents, staff members and/or media people have told me how UNH traveled. In recent times, it has been Southwest from Manchester to Philly for Villanova and Delaware, Southwest to Baltimore for Towson and JMU, Jet Blue from Boston to Richmond for W&M and UR. I've never heard about a charter flight except for the playoff games. The equipment may go by truck though. That wouldn't surprise me since I once saw a BYU 18 wheeler on the westbound Mass. Pike on my return home after attending a game in Durham. (BYU played at Boston College that same afternoon.)

So yes, commercial flights definitely matter in this discussion.

[NU Hound29]

Northeastern flies commercial.

Chartering flights is incredibly expensive....

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

1. With a 14-team CAA, there will be fewer chances for head-to-head competition (4.04.1), and common opponents to draw from for 4.04.2, increasing the chance it goes to the other tiebreakers.

2. By going to "number of conference road wins" in 4.04.3, New Hampshire might have to be judged by going 1-1 against Top 10 Richmond and JMU on the road, while Delaware played sub-.500 Towson and Hofstra and went 2-0.

Revisiting (1) above, with a 12-team CAA with 2 divisions each team last year played 5 CAA divisional games, 3 cross-divisional games, and 3 "other", giving the 4.04.1 tiebreaker six games to compare. However, a 14-team CAA each team plays 6 CAA divisional games, 2 cross-divisional games and 3 "other", giving them only four common CAA games to compare for the tiebreaker. That's in reality a huge potential difference for comparison.

While every conference needs to go to tiebreakers to determine their champion (or to determine eligibility for their championship game), nobody else does it in this way, nor does any other conference have such a high percentage chance that it goes to "common road conference wins" or a dreaded coin flip - two methods, IMO, that are very unfair.

Even the most vehement of supporters of a two-division CAA have to admit that these tiebreakers are pretty thin, and there's a pretty good chance each year that the autobid winner is determined by the coin flip or 4.04.3.

Now determining the champion of each division - well, that's a pretty solid tiebreaker.

LFN, you've acknowledged that all the CAA play-off participants have earned their at large bids. Why isn't it also logical that even if the CAA AQ was determined by a coin flip that BOTH teams deserve a playoff bid? The method chosen by the CAA to determine its AQ is not keeping anybody from another league out of the playoffs! Your convoluted argument attempting to demonstrate that was already exposed as incorrect.

Give it a rest already!! xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx

[andy7171]

Of the trips north that my teams flew to, URI(twice), Northeastern, Maine, they were all commercial flights. I can't imagine Towson chartering. Hell, we bussed to Buffalo and UConn!

[ur2k]

To the best of my knowledge, UNH has always flown commercial to games at the CAA South schools. Player's parents, staff members and/or media people have told me how UNH traveled. In recent times, it has been Southwest from Manchester to Philly for Villanova and Delaware, Southwest to Baltimore for Towson and JMU, Jet Blue from Boston to Richmond for W&M and UR. I've never heard about a charter flight except for the playoff games. The equipment may go by truck though. That wouldn't surprise me since I once saw a BYU 18 wheeler on the westbound Mass. Pike on my return home after attending a game in Durham. (BYU played at Boston College that same afternoon.)

So yes, commercial flights definitely matter in this discussion.

Gotcha. I wasn't sure of how most traveled. Good info.

http://www.thecollegianur.com/2008/10/30/away-football-games-deplete-the-team%E2%80%99s-budget/

FYI - UR School newspaper article about travel costs.

[henfan]

While every conference needs to go to tiebreakers to determine their champion (or to determine eligibility for their championship game), nobody else does it in this way, nor does any other conference have such a high percentage chance that it goes to "common road conference wins" or a dreaded coin flip - two methods, IMO, that are very unfair.

...But, most importantly, not unfair according to the NCAA, up to and including a possible coin flip. The NCAA seemingly doesn't give any weight to "high percentage chance" in evaluating acceptable formulas. Of course, other conferences also have coin flips as last resort tie breakers, including the Patriot League.
http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/081308aad.html

Not only has the CAA's formula not drawn disputes from the NCAA, but conference members also haven't taken issue with it either. So then, no one of consequence really sees it as a problem, nor is the formula likely to change anytime soon.

[89Hen]

and there's a pretty good chance each year that the autobid winner is determined by the coin flip
WHO CARES? There's a 100% chance that ALL CAA teams involved in a coin flip will get a bid to the playoffs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

WHO CARES?

The at-large team screwed out of the at-large bid going to the opposite CAA divisional winner. Keep up, people! xspankx

[bluehenbillk]

Gotcha. I wasn't sure of how most traveled. Good info.

http://www.thecollegianur.com/2008/10/30/away-football-games-deplete-the-team%E2%80%99s-budget/

FYI - UR School newspaper article about travel costs.

Wow..that article says UR grosses about $300K annually in ticket sales. UD does about $250K for each home game.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

...But, most importantly, not unfair according to the NCAA, up to and including a possible coin flip.

We shall see. The "championship winner" "formula" will be changing soon, at which time the FCS subcommittee will look at it again. And AFAIK the FCS subcommittee and the NCAA have no official position on the matter yet - they haven't said it's "fair" or "unfair".

[andy7171]

The at-large team screwed out of the at-large bid going to the opposite CAA divisional winner. Keep up, people! xspankx

Wouldn't that be the case of only two CAA teams made the playoffs?

[89Hen]

The at-large team screwed out of the at-large bid going to the opposite CAA divisional winner.
xconfusedx WHO? If Villanova and UNH are tied for the CAA auto, both are going no matter which one wins the coin flip. If Villanova and Richmond are tied for the CAA auto, both are goin no matter which one wins the head to head. What are you missing here? xconfusedx

[andy7171]

xconfusedx WHO? If Villanova and UNH are tied for the CAA auto, both are going no matter which one wins the coin flip. If Villanova and Richmond are tied for the CAA auto, both are goin no matter which one wins the head to head. What are you missing here? xconfusedx

Couldn't it be argued that the 2006 PL champ is the one that screwed the last at large bid?

[Tribe4SF]

The at-large team screwed out of the at-large bid going to the opposite CAA divisional winner. Keep up, people! xspankx

xlolx Two conferences...two divisions...three divisions...makes no difference. If the #2 in the PL is worthy, they'll get a bid, no matter what the CAA does. No team has ever been screwed out of an at-large by an "opposite CAA divisional winner", and never will be. You can't name one, because one doesn't exist.

Get this...once a conference AQ is awarded (by whatever means), all other conference members are eligible for at-large bids on the same basis as every other FCS member. Conference affiliation is not a criteria for at-large selection. Period...end of story.

[Tribe4SF]

Couldn't it be argued that the 2006 PL champ is the one that screwed the last at large bid?

Or the 2008 PL Champ!

[andy7171]

Or the 2008 PL Champ!

We best be careful, these could be considered by sOMe as personal attacks.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The at-large team screwed out of the at-large bid going to the opposite CAA divisional winner. Keep up, people! xspankx

You have yet to document a case where that has happened. Until you do, I will continue to consider your argument rhetoric.

You gave given the opinion that all CAA At-Large bids have been earned on merit. Seems to me you have a conflict. How could an at-large bid given on merit be screwing some other team out of a playoff bid? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

Maybe you should study the CAA standings from the prior years:

2008 Standings (http://www.caasports.com/standings/Standings.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&SPID=4660)

Pre 2008 Records (http://www.nmnathletics.com/fls/8500/supportfiles/Records/Records_FBwebpage.pdf)

And you obviously didn't read a prior post or you're just too stubborn to acknowledge that you're wrong.

2008: UNH is the North Champion (JMU got the AQ). They are 9-2. They didn't get into the playoffs by your alleged de-facto AQ to the other CAA division. That playoff bid was earned. Doesn't Maine also getting a bid shoot holes in your theory? If UNH got a "gift" bid by your AQ theory, then why would Maine get a bid? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx N.B. -- W&M is the next team in.

2007: UMass and Richmond are both division winners at 7-1. Both are 9-2 in the regular season. UNH also gets a playoff bid from the North while Delaware and JMU getbids from the South. Once again I think it is pretty clear there is no de-facto AQ going to an undeserving other division winner. N.B. -- Villanova is the next team in.

2006: UMass gets the AQ at 8-0 while JMU wins the South at 7-1 and 9-2 overall. UNH from the North gets the only other CAA playoff spot. Pretty clear to me that JMU was going to the playoffs without LFN's mysterious de-facto AQ.

2005: UNH and Richmond are both 7-1, UNH is 10-1 and gets the AQ while Richmond at 8-3 gets an at-large bid. These are the only bids given to the CAA this season. Once again, Richmond looks like it earned its bid without LFN's alleged AQ.

2004: W&M, JMU and Delaware tie at 7-1 in the South, W&M gets the AQ. UNH wins the North at 6-2 and goes 9-2 with wins over Rutgers and Delaware on their turf in OOC games. Pretty clear that UNH earned its bid this year.

Then you have to go back to 1998 for another two division year:

1998: Richmond gets the AQ at 7-1, 9-2 while UConn and UMass tie for the North at 6-2. They are 9-2 and 8-3 and both get bids. Yep, another earned playoff bid. Oh my, UMass wins the National Championship.

1997: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1996: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1995: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1994: UNH wins the North at 8-0 and gets the AQ, second place BU also gets a bid. South Champion JMU at 6-2, 9-2 gets a bid, wins a playoff game. Looks like an earned bid to me.

1993: BU wins the North at 8-0 and gets the AQ. The South gets two teams into the playoffs, W&M South Champs at 7-1, 9-2 and Delaware at 6-2, 8-3. Once again it doesn't look like some mysterious other division AQ at work.

During the years of one division, 1999-2003, the playoff bids went to:

2003: UMass and Delaware share the title at 8-1, both make playoffs. Third place Northeastern at 6-3, 8-4 does not get playoff bid.

2002: Maine and Northeastern tie for the crown at 7-2. Third place Villanova also gets a playoff bid.

2001: Maine, Hofstra, Villanova and William & Mary share the crown at 7-2. Nova is left out of the playoffs at 8-3!

2000: Delaware and Richmond tie for the crown at 7-1 and make the playoffs. Third place UMass doesn't.

1999: JMU and UMass tie for the crown at 7-1 and go to the playoffs.

Is 15 years of facts enough? Frankly, the 2004-2008 period makes it pretty obvious the theory doesn't hold water. Where is there any sign of this gratuitous "other division AQ" keeping other schools out of the playoffs that LFN pontificates about? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

[UNHWILDCATS05]

You have yet to document a case where that has happened. Until you do, I will continue to consider your argument rhetoric.

You gave given the opinion that all CAA At-Large bids have been earned on merit. Seems to me you have a conflict. How could an at-large bid given on merit be screwing some other team out of a playoff bid? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

Maybe you should study the CAA standings from the prior years:

2008 Standings (http://www.caasports.com/standings/Standings.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&SPID=4660)

Pre 2008 Records (http://www.nmnathletics.com/fls/8500/supportfiles/Records/Records_FBwebpage.pdf)

And you obviously didn't read a prior post or you're just too stubborn to acknowledge that you're wrong.

2008: UNH is the North Champion (JMU got the AQ). They are 9-2. They didn't get into the playoffs by your alleged de-facto AQ to the other CAA division. That playoff bid was earned. Doesn't Maine also getting a bid shoot holes in your theory? If UNH got a "gift" bid by your AQ theory, then why would Maine get a bid? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx N.B. -- W&M is the next team in.

2007: UMass and Richmond are both division winners at 7-1. Both are 9-2 in the regular season. UNH also gets a playoff bid from the North while Delaware and JMU getbids from the South. Once again I think it is pretty clear there is no de-facto AQ going to an undeserving other division winner. N.B. -- Villanova is the next team in.

2006: UMass gets the AQ at 8-0 while JMU wins the South at 7-1 and 9-2 overall. UNH from the North gets the only other CAA playoff spot. Pretty clear to me that JMU was going to the playoffs without LFN's mysterious de-facto AQ.

2005: UNH and Richmond are both 7-1, UNH is 10-1 and gets the AQ while Richmond at 8-3 gets an at-large bid. These are the only bids given to the CAA this season. Once again, Richmond looks like it earned its bid without LFN's alleged AQ.

2004: W&M, JMU and Delaware tie at 7-1 in the South, W&M gets the AQ. UNH wins the North at 6-2 and goes 9-2 with wins over Rutgers and Delaware on their turf in OOC games. Pretty clear that UNH earned its bid this year.

Then you have to go back to 1998 for another two division year:

1998: Richmond gets the AQ at 7-1, 9-2 while UConn and UMass tie for the North at 6-2. They are 9-2 and 8-3 and both get bids. Yep, another earned playoff bid. Oh my, UMass wins the National Championship.

1997: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1996: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1995: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1994: UNH wins the North at 8-0 and gets the AQ, second place BU also gets a bid. South Champion JMU at 6-2, 9-2 gets a bid, wins a playoff game. Looks like an earned bid to me.

1993: BU wins the North at 8-0 and gets the AQ. The South gets two teams into the playoffs, W&M South Champs at 7-1, 9-2 and Delaware at 6-2, 8-3. Once again it doesn't look like some mysterious other division AQ at work.

During the years of one division, 1999-2003, the playoff bids went to:

2003: UMass and Delaware share the title at 8-1, both make playoffs. Third place Northeastern at 6-3, 8-4 does not get playoff bid.

2002: Maine and Northeastern tie for the crown at 7-2. Third place Villanova also gets a playoff bid.

2001: Maine, Hofstra, Villanova and William & Mary share the crown at 7-2. Nova is left out of the playoffs at 8-3!

2000: Delaware and Richmond tie for the crown at 7-1 and make the playoffs. Third place UMass doesn't.

1999: JMU and UMass tie for the crown at 7-1 and go to the playoffs.

Is 15 years of facts enough? Frankly, the 2004-2008 period makes it pretty obvious the theory doesn't hold water. Where is there any sign of this gratuitous "other division AQ" keeping other schools out of the playoffs that LFN pontificates about? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

You, my friend, are the man xbowx xbowx xbowx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

[GannonFan]

You have yet to document a case where that has happened. Until you do, I will continue to consider your argument rhetoric.

You gave given the opinion that all CAA At-Large bids have been earned on merit. Seems to me you have a conflict. How could an at-large bid given on merit be screwing some other team out of a playoff bid? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

Maybe you should study the CAA standings from the prior years:

2008 Standings (http://www.caasports.com/standings/Standings.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&SPID=4660)

Pre 2008 Records (http://www.nmnathletics.com/fls/8500/supportfiles/Records/Records_FBwebpage.pdf)

And you obviously didn't read a prior post or you're just too stubborn to acknowledge that you're wrong.

2008: UNH is the North Champion (JMU got the AQ). They are 9-2. They didn't get into the playoffs by your alleged de-facto AQ to the other CAA division. That playoff bid was earned. Doesn't Maine also getting a bid shoot holes in your theory? If UNH got a "gift" bid by your AQ theory, then why would Maine get a bid? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx N.B. -- W&M is the next team in.

2007: UMass and Richmond are both division winners at 7-1. Both are 9-2 in the regular season. UNH also gets a playoff bid from the North while Delaware and JMU getbids from the South. Once again I think it is pretty clear there is no de-facto AQ going to an undeserving other division winner. N.B. -- Villanova is the next team in.

2006: UMass gets the AQ at 8-0 while JMU wins the South at 7-1 and 9-2 overall. UNH from the North gets the only other CAA playoff spot. Pretty clear to me that JMU was going to the playoffs without LFN's mysterious de-facto AQ.

2005: UNH and Richmond are both 7-1, UNH is 10-1 and gets the AQ while Richmond at 8-3 gets an at-large bid. These are the only bids given to the CAA this season. Once again, Richmond looks like it earned its bid without LFN's alleged AQ.

2004: W&M, JMU and Delaware tie at 7-1 in the South, W&M gets the AQ. UNH wins the North at 6-2 and goes 9-2 with wins over Rutgers and Delaware on their turf in OOC games. Pretty clear that UNH earned its bid this year.

Then you have to go back to 1998 for another two division year:

1998: Richmond gets the AQ at 7-1, 9-2 while UConn and UMass tie for the North at 6-2. They are 9-2 and 8-3 and both get bids. Yep, another earned playoff bid. Oh my, UMass wins the National Championship.

1997: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1996: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1995: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1994: UNH wins the North at 8-0 and gets the AQ, second place BU also gets a bid. South Champion JMU at 6-2, 9-2 gets a bid, wins a playoff game. Looks like an earned bid to me.

1993: BU wins the North at 8-0 and gets the AQ. The South gets two teams into the playoffs, W&M South Champs at 7-1, 9-2 and Delaware at 6-2, 8-3. Once again it doesn't look like some mysterious other division AQ at work.

During the years of one division, 1999-2003, the playoff bids went to:

2003: UMass and Delaware share the title at 8-1, both make playoffs. Third place Northeastern at 6-3, 8-4 does not get playoff bid.

2002: Maine and Northeastern tie for the crown at 7-2. Third place Villanova also gets a playoff bid.

2001: Maine, Hofstra, Villanova and William & Mary share the crown at 7-2. Nova is left out of the playoffs at 8-3!

2000: Delaware and Richmond tie for the crown at 7-1 and make the playoffs. Third place UMass doesn't.

1999: JMU and UMass tie for the crown at 7-1 and go to the playoffs.

Is 15 years of facts enough? Frankly, the 2004-2008 period makes it pretty obvious the theory doesn't hold water. Where is there any sign of this gratuitous "other division AQ" keeping other schools out of the playoffs that LFN pontificates about? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

If that's not a gauntlet being thrown down, I'm not sure what is. I'm waiting anxiously for what could possibly be the retort to this that would prove the CAA is screwing anyone just due to its size. xwhistlex

[ur2k]

You have yet to document a case where that has happened. Until you do, I will continue to consider your argument rhetoric.

You gave given the opinion that all CAA At-Large bids have been earned on merit. Seems to me you have a conflict. How could an at-large bid given on merit be screwing some other team out of a playoff bid? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

Maybe you should study the CAA standings from the prior years:

2008 Standings (http://www.caasports.com/standings/Standings.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&SPID=4660)

Pre 2008 Records (http://www.nmnathletics.com/fls/8500/supportfiles/Records/Records_FBwebpage.pdf)

And you obviously didn't read a prior post or you're just too stubborn to acknowledge that you're wrong.

2008: UNH is the North Champion (JMU got the AQ). They are 9-2. They didn't get into the playoffs by your alleged de-facto AQ to the other CAA division. That playoff bid was earned. Doesn't Maine also getting a bid shoot holes in your theory? If UNH got a "gift" bid by your AQ theory, then why would Maine get a bid? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx N.B. -- W&M is the next team in.

2007: UMass and Richmond are both division winners at 7-1. Both are 9-2 in the regular season. UNH also gets a playoff bid from the North while Delaware and JMU getbids from the South. Once again I think it is pretty clear there is no de-facto AQ going to an undeserving other division winner. N.B. -- Villanova is the next team in.

2006: UMass gets the AQ at 8-0 while JMU wins the South at 7-1 and 9-2 overall. UNH from the North gets the only other CAA playoff spot. Pretty clear to me that JMU was going to the playoffs without LFN's mysterious de-facto AQ.

2005: UNH and Richmond are both 7-1, UNH is 10-1 and gets the AQ while Richmond at 8-3 gets an at-large bid. These are the only bids given to the CAA this season. Once again, Richmond looks like it earned its bid without LFN's alleged AQ.

2004: W&M, JMU and Delaware tie at 7-1 in the South, W&M gets the AQ. UNH wins the North at 6-2 and goes 9-2 with wins over Rutgers and Delaware on their turf in OOC games. Pretty clear that UNH earned its bid this year.

Then you have to go back to 1998 for another two division year:

1998: Richmond gets the AQ at 7-1, 9-2 while UConn and UMass tie for the North at 6-2. They are 9-2 and 8-3 and both get bids. Yep, another earned playoff bid. Oh my, UMass wins the National Championship.

1997: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1996: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1995: The North Champion didn't get a playoff bid!

1994: UNH wins the North at 8-0 and gets the AQ, second place BU also gets a bid. South Champion JMU at 6-2, 9-2 gets a bid, wins a playoff game. Looks like an earned bid to me.

1993: BU wins the North at 8-0 and gets the AQ. The South gets two teams into the playoffs, W&M South Champs at 7-1, 9-2 and Delaware at 6-2, 8-3. Once again it doesn't look like some mysterious other division AQ at work.

During the years of one division, 1999-2003, the playoff bids went to:

2003: UMass and Delaware share the title at 8-1, both make playoffs. Third place Northeastern at 6-3, 8-4 does not get playoff bid.

2002: Maine and Northeastern tie for the crown at 7-2. Third place Villanova also gets a playoff bid.

2001: Maine, Hofstra, Villanova and William & Mary share the crown at 7-2. Nova is left out of the playoffs at 8-3!

2000: Delaware and Richmond tie for the crown at 7-1 and make the playoffs. Third place UMass doesn't.

1999: JMU and UMass tie for the crown at 7-1 and go to the playoffs.

Is 15 years of facts enough? Frankly, the 2004-2008 period makes it pretty obvious the theory doesn't hold water. Where is there any sign of this gratuitous "other division AQ" keeping other schools out of the playoffs that LFN pontificates about? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

xbowx

... and boom goes the dynamite.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You gave given the opinion that all CAA At-Large bids have been earned on merit. Seems to me you have a conflict. How could an at-large bid given on merit be screwing some other team out of a playoff bid?


If the CAA split and [the teams that make up the new two 7-team divisions] got autobids, you'd actually free up two at-large bids: the at-large currently going to the "other CAA divisional champion" and the mandated at-large that now becomes available due the NCAA's rule that only 50% of the field can be autobids. So giving the "CAA North" and "CAA South" different autobids actually gives more access to the playoffs (as at-larges) for everybody, not less. Conversely, when the 14 team CAA takes up one autobid when it should have two, it means less access for everybody, not more.

Just so everybody's up to speed. Sorry you went through the trouble of breaking down the CAA/A-10's playoff history for the past 15 years when it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

So last year, the 16 team playoffs:

Autobids: JMU, Appalachian State, Southern Illinois, Weber State, Texas State, Colgate, Eastern Kentucky, South Carolina State

At-larges: Northern Iowa, Montana, Villanova, Richmond, Cal Poly, Wofford, New Hampshire, Maine

Would have been an 18-team playoff if the CAA had two divisions and an autobid for each division:

Autobids: JMU, Appalachian State, Southern Illinois, Weber State, Texas State, Colgate, Eastern Kentucky, South Carolina State, New Hampshire

At-larges: Northern Iowa, Montana, Villanova, Richmond, Cal Poly, Wofford, Maine, William & Mary, Elon (based on GPI)

So, yes, the CAA would have gotten an extra team into the playoffs that way - or, more accurately, the "CAA North" would have gotten two bids (one auto), and the "CAA South" would have gotten four (one auto). Rather than the rest of FCS battling for seven de-facto at-large places, they'd be battling for nine at-large places. I have no problem with that. And some years, (like last year) a CAA North or South team will get one of those spots. But at least a school would then be able to really earn the at-large rather than some CAA "divisional champion" taking up an at-large, in effect, automatically.

Using your research, you've inadvertently proved my point. All five years, the opposite CAA divisional champion were "worthy" of the playoffs. Well, if they were so worthy, how come they didn't get an autobid for winning their division? If their 6-team division wasn't called "CAA North" or "CAA South", they'd have been a multi-bid conference and a mortal lock to get an autobid if they'd asked for one.

[Uncle Buck]

Now that my friends is research in action!

[henfan]

We shall see. The "championship winner" "formula" will be changing soon, at which time the FCS subcommittee will look at it again.

What leads you to assume the formula will be changing, let alone changing soon? No one from the league has said that the addition of two teams would necessitate a change in the championship formula. If you read the formula I posted, a change wouldn't seem necessary.


And AFAIK the FCS subcommittee and the NCAA have no official position on the matter yet - they haven't said it's "fair" or "unfair".

As the subcommittee has continued to award the CAA designated champion an automatic bid each and every year since divisional play was implemented, they have indeed taken a very decisive position on the league's formula. If they deemed the formula unacceptable (or, to use your term, not fair), the subcommittee would not have awarded an automatic bid to the league.

[henfan]

Well, if they were so worthy, how come they didn't get an autobid for winning their division? If their 6-team division wasn't called "CAA North" or "CAA South", they'd have been a multi-bid conference and a mortal lock to get an autobid if they'd asked for one.

How come? Well, how about because the NCAA doesn't award autobids to divisional champions, only conference champions. League schools simply have no desire to split, LFN. It's as simple as that. Further, CAA member schools and the NCAA aren't obsessed with who is awarded the CAA autobid on the basis of its championship formula. It's unimportant to the league in the grand scheme of things.

[89Hen]

Couldn't it be argued that the 2006 PL champ is the one that screwed the last at large bid?
Absolutely! And Montana State winning the Big Sky auto two years running with 7-5ish records screwed somebody. AFAIK, the CAA auto has NEVER screwed an at--large out of a bid.

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

You, my friend, are the man xbowx xbowx xbowx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx


I'll second that sentiment!

[andy7171]

I second ur2k, BOOM goes the dynamite!

[GannonFan]

Just so everybody's up to speed. Sorry you went through the trouble of breaking down the CAA/A-10's playoff history for the past 15 years when it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

So last year, the 16 team playoffs:

Autobids: JMU, Appalachian State, Southern Illinois, Weber State, Texas State, Colgate, Eastern Kentucky, South Carolina State

At-larges: Northern Iowa, Montana, Villanova, Richmond, Cal Poly, Wofford, New Hampshire, Maine

Would have been an 18-team playoff if the CAA had two divisions and an autobid for each division:

Autobids: JMU, Appalachian State, Southern Illinois, Weber State, Texas State, Colgate, Eastern Kentucky, South Carolina State, New Hampshire

At-larges: Northern Iowa, Montana, Villanova, Richmond, Cal Poly, Wofford, Maine, William & Mary, Elon (based on GPI)

So, yes, the CAA would have gotten an extra team into the playoffs that way - or, more accurately, the "CAA North" would have gotten two bids (one auto), and the "CAA South" would have gotten four (one auto). Rather than the rest of FCS battling for seven de-facto at-large places, they'd be battling for nine at-large places. I have no problem with that. And some years, (like last year) a CAA North or South team will get one of those spots. But at least a school would then be able to really earn the at-large rather than some CAA "divisional champion" taking up an at-large, in effect, automatically.

Using your research, you've inadvertently proved my point. All five years, the opposite CAA divisional champion were "worthy" of the playoffs. Well, if they were so worthy, how come they didn't get an autobid for winning their division? If their 6-team division wasn't called "CAA North" or "CAA South", they'd have been a multi-bid conference and a mortal lock to get an autobid if they'd asked for one.

Oh my, LFN, how far you've fallen. So now your argument devolves to simply "the CAA has too many good teams and they take up too many playoff positions because they are so good, so it's only fair that the NCAA force them to break up the conference into two, so that another autobid is needed and the playoffs are forced to be enlarged in order to allow teams that aren't as good into the playoffs."

So in other words, you're upset because the CAA is producing too many worthy teams and you'd like to see some less than worthy teams sneak into the playoffs.

I can just see the protests now...

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/02/15/international/15protest-london2.jpg
WHAT DO WE WANT???? MEDIOCRITY IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! WHEN DO WE WANT IT???? NOW!!!!!

[Old Cage]

Here's a hint of "conference realignment":

http://www.projo.com/uri/content/uri_series_0617.8df91f38.html

but positive thoughts about Thorr.

[turbodean]

The Virginian-Pilot weighs in - Fordham and Stony Brook to CAA North by 2012?

Additonal football expansion could be coming soon to CAA
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/additonal-football-expansion-could-be-coming-soon-caa

Comments by Stony Brook athletic director Jim Fiore included.

[Tribe4SF]

The Virginian-Pilot weighs in - Fordham and Stony Brook to CAA North by 2012?

Additonal football expansion could be coming soon to CAA
http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/additonal-football-expansion-could-be-coming-soon-caa

Comments by Stony Brook athletic director Jim Fiore included.

The most interesting thing in that article is the statement that the current plan is for Georgia State to go to the North. Also states that the league is looking at a 5-3 split of division games, with no round robin in the divisions. I don't think that will fly with the NCAA.

[andy7171]

Albany fans won't like that article.

Expand to 16? not play 7 CAA members each year? I can't see that happening.

[DFW HOYA]

The most interesting thing in that article is the statement that the current plan is for Georgia State to go to the North. Also states that the league is looking at a 5-3 split of division games, with no round robin in the divisions. I don't think that will fly with the NCAA.

I'm not so sure the NCAA cares about such things. The Big 10 has an odd football setup and it passes; in basketball, the Big East has changed formats regularly (some with no games between conference teams) without incident.

If the CAA gets that big, they should consider a 7-2-3 approach (seven in division, two between divisions, three out of conference).

[Tribe4SF]

I'm not so sure the NCAA cares about such things. The Big 10 has an odd football setup and it passes; in basketball, the Big East has changed formats regularly (some with no games between conference teams) without incident.

If the CAA gets that big, they should consider a 7-2-3 approach (seven in division, two between divisions, three out of conference).

As cited earlier, NCAA by-laws for FCS require a divisional system to have five or more teams, and to play a round robin in the division. It may pass, but it will require a change in NCAA policy.

The 7-2-3 setup only works for 12 game seasons. Whatever the setup, there will only be eight conference games.

[Old Cage]

I've been under siege here before on this subject, but in my opinion this story just keeps getting worse for UMass.

Argh!

[zilla]

If the CAA wants to expand to 16, I know of a school from Conway, SC that would be an excellent travel partner for Georgia State.

:D

[Houndawg]

I'm not so sure the NCAA cares about such things. The Big 10 has an odd football setup and it passes; in basketball, the Big East has changed formats regularly (some with no games between conference teams) without incident.

If the CAA gets that big, they should consider a 7-2-3 approach (seven in division, two between divisions, three out of conference).

And the Big 10 "champion", just like the BCS "champion" will always have legitimacy problems.

[jmufan999]

omg, i'm a CAA fan and even I'M bored.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

As cited earlier, NCAA by-laws for FCS require a divisional system to have five or more teams, and to play a round robin in the division.

If you read it that way. I still don't interpret it that way myself.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Absorb Fordham and Stony Brook and the CAA North could have those two, along with Rhode Island, Massachusetts, Northeastern, Maine, New Hampshire and Hofstra.

That would leave a CAA South with James Madison, Richmond, William and Mary, Old Dominion, Towson, Villanova, Delaware and Georgia State.

The North and South could play round-robin schedules within their divisions, with an eighth conference game coming against a team from the other division. That would give each team four home games and four away games in CAA play.

Makes sense to me. Puts everyone in their proper geographical divisions and keeps teams that want to continue their affiliation with each other together.

[Dukie95]

Georgia State's location is also problematic because every league game with the Panthers involves a flight. A bus trip for a college football team usually costs between $10,000 and $15,000. A chartered flight for a football team costs between $60,000 and $80,000.

Given these difficulties, it seems unlikely that the CAA would have accepted Georgia State as a league member in 2005 if football was already in the school's plans.

Now, the league is stuck with the Panthers as its far-away brother.

So, GSU is becoming a burden to the CAA? Pretty strong words there, and he just may be right. If the CAA thought there was any chance GSU would be adding football in the future, would they have brought them in at all?

[GannonFan]

And the Big 10 "champion", just like the BCS "champion" will always have legitimacy problems.

Unlike the Big 10, though, the CAA has represented itself well in the playoffs as of late. Four titles by four different teams in the past 10 years has made the CAA look just fine.

[GannonFan]

The most interesting thing in that article is the statement that the current plan is for Georgia State to go to the North. Also states that the league is looking at a 5-3 split of division games, with no round robin in the divisions. I don't think that will fly with the NCAA.

Where they can get around that is just not have defined divisions. The scheduling can be exactly what it would be if you had a 5-5-4 divisional alignment, but you don't have to actual list the standings as divisional standings - simply have one big conference standings and schedule as if it was a 5-5-4 alignment.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

So, GSU is becoming a burden to the CAA? Pretty strong words there, and he just may be right. If the CAA thought there was any chance GSU would be adding football in the future, would they have brought them in at all?

The same year that we joined the CAA - the SoCon kicked out ETSU because they dropped football. If we had any plans to start football at that time - we could have been a candidate to take ETSU's place. I don't know how Georgia Southern would have felt about that - but with them to our south and UT-Chattanooga to our north it would have been a much better fit.

But at the time we were a basketball school and all our decisions were based around that. Obviously, the CAA is a much better basketball conference than the SoCon - so when we were invited to play in the CAA we jumped on it. Note: i'm not trying to say the SoCon approached us, or even that being a member of the SoCon was even on the table for Georgia State I'm just thinking out loud.

[GannonFan]

Albany fans won't like that article.

Expand to 16? not play 7 CAA members each year? I can't see that happening.

Imagine that, if Stony Brook gets into the CAA and not Albany. Yikes.

I wouldn't be opposed to a 16 team conference - I think you may max out then. I'm sure a lot of the CAA North teams would certainly not like losing UD for 6 years at a time, though, and only getting to host UD once every 14 years. That was a little of sticking point when they went to the current alignment anyway. Of course, everything is temporary - in 10 years the conference will look much different depending upon the desires of some to move to FBS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Where they can get around that is just not have defined divisions. The scheduling can be exactly what it would be if you had a 5-5-4 divisional alignment, but you don't have to actual list the standings as divisional standings - simply have one big conference standings and schedule as if it was a 5-5-4 alignment.

No they can't, since it wouldn't satisfy the round-robin argument. Plus (assuming you only play 8 CAA games) you would play just a little over 50% of the members in the league. You could go undefeated in your league having played all teams in your league that finished under .500.

[henfan]

So, GSU is becoming a burden to the CAA? Pretty strong words there, and he just may be right. If the CAA thought there was any chance GSU would be adding football in the future, would they have brought them in at all?

Dukie, this is a silly one off comment by this columnist. GSU was brought into the conference, in part, BECAUSE of the possibility of them eventually adding FB. It is ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS better for conference unity to have core members to sponsor as many sports as is offered by the conference.

[GannonFan]

No they can't, since it wouldn't satisfy the round-robin argument. Plus (assuming you only play 8 CAA games) you would play just a little over 50% of the members in the league. You could go undefeated in your league having played all teams in your league that finished under .500.

Where's the requirement that there be round robin play in the absence of divisions? The bylaws I've seen only indicate that if a conference decides to break into divisions, that they need to be 5 teams or more and there must be round robin play inside the division. I haven't seen anything saying that within a conference without divisions you must play a round robin schedule - I'm pretty sure the A10 didn't play a round robin schedule when they had more than 9 teams and had no divisions between 1999 and 2003. The NCAA didn't seem to mind then.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

The bylaws I've seen only indicate that if a conference decides to break into divisions, that they need to be 5 teams or more and there must be round robin play inside the division.

And it doesn't even say that. The bylaw that was quoted earlier in this thread said that IF you divide into divisions of 5 or more teams then you have to have round robin play. It doesn't say anything about requiring that divisions have to have at least 5 teams. It doesn't say anything about a minimum number of teams to be in a division. It simply states that IF your division alignment has 5 or more teams then they have to play round robin. It doesn't say that you can't have divisions with 2 teams, or 3 teams, or 4 teams.

[GannonFan]

And it doesn't even say that. The bylaw that was quoted earlier in this thread said that IF you divide into divisions of 5 or more teams then you have to have round robin play. It doesn't say anything about requiring that divisions have to have at least 5 teams. It doesn't say anything about a minimum number of teams to be in a division. It simply states that IF your division alignment has 5 or more teams then they have to play round robin. It doesn't say that you can't have divisions with 2 teams, or 3 teams, or 4 teams.

Well, I kinda agree with everyone else, I think the intent is certainly to limit the FCS conferences to establishing divisions of no less than 5 teams per division, and round robins must be held within the divisions. At least from reading part c and part d together. You see it differently - ce la vie.

With that said, though, I see nothing that says that conferences without a divisional alignment have to play round robins or have to play a certain percentage of the conference, and historically, since the A10 did it this decade, I don't see that the NCAA has ever stated that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Where's the requirement that there be round robin play in the absence of divisions? The bylaws I've seen only indicate that if a conference decides to break into divisions, that they need to be 5 teams or more and there must be round robin play inside the division. I haven't seen anything saying that within a conference without divisions you must play a round robin schedule - I'm pretty sure the A10 didn't play a round robin schedule when they had more than 9 teams and had no divisions between 1999 and 2003. The NCAA didn't seem to mind then.

Then again, no conference with 14 teams organizes their championship this way, either. When the A-10 did it they were (I think) 10 teams and they played more than 75% of the other teams in the conference. In this configuration you'd play just over half.

I believe every other conference with more than 12 teams determines some sort of champion on the field through a championship game. The CAA would be the only conference that doesn't do so. So the question comes back to the same one I brought up on (what, page 6 of this thread?) is: how will the CAA determine their true champion?

[Tribe4SF]

Then again, no conference with 14 teams organizes their championship this way, either. When the A-10 did it they were (I think) 10 teams and they played more than 75% of the other teams in the conference. In this configuration you'd play just over half.

I believe every other conference with more than 12 teams determines some sort of champion on the field through a championship game. The CAA would be the only conference that doesn't do so. So the question comes back to the same one I brought up on (what, page 6 of this thread?) is: how will the CAA determine their true champion?

xthumbsupx Pacesetters, baby....pacesetters!

As to how we'll determine our true champion, have you not been paying attention? We have a formula for determining the AQ, and our championship is frequently shared. It is duly noted that the champion will not be recognized as such by you.xrolleyesx

[GannonFan]

Then again, no conference with 14 teams organizes their championship this way, either. When the A-10 did it they were (I think) 10 teams and they played more than 75% of the other teams in the conference. In this configuration you'd play just over half.

I believe every other conference with more than 12 teams determines some sort of champion on the field through a championship game. The CAA would be the only conference that doesn't do so. So the question comes back to the same one I brought up on (what, page 6 of this thread?) is: how will the CAA determine their true champion?

The A10 played a non-divisional alignment with 11 teams, so in any given year you didn't play ~30% of the conference. Heck, right now the CAA teams only play 2/3 of the rest of the conference - the NCAA doesn't see a problem with that.

There are no other conferences with more than 12 teams that even play at the FCS level and play in the playoff system, so the fact that there are FBS conferences that do play championship games matters little.

The NCAA has been more than fine with the CAA settling their autobid with a 5 step process that doesn't necessarily settle anything on the field, and that's with a 12 team conference currently. I'd imagine the same thing would apply for a 14 team conference - adding 2 more teams isn't that significant or different.

And again, why do you think the NCAA will change so drastically from what they've decided before? Again, this just seems more like a PL rant than anything else.

[whitey]

I believe every other conference with more than 12 teams determines some sort of champion on the field through a championship game. The CAA would be the only conference that doesn't do so. So the question comes back to the same one I brought up on (what, page 6 of this thread?) is: how will the CAA determine their true champion?


lol. xoopsx

[mainejeff]

I'm just wondering if Delaware and Villanova will be underwriting Maine's semi-annual trip to Atlanta.

xcoffeex

[GannonFan]

I'm just wondering if Delaware and Villanova will be underwriting Maine's semi-annual trip to Atlanta.

xcoffeex


No one's holding a gun to Maine's head - if they want to leave, they can do so whenever they'd like. Nobody wants Maine to leave, mind you, so if they leave they leave of their own desire.

Btw, how much more expensive is it for Maine to go to Atlanta than it is Harrisonburg or Richmond or Williamsburg? xcoffeex

[Houndawg]

Make them different conferences and give them both an AQ. They'd each have room to add a patsy or two that would be happy to be in the big time.

:DAlbany. Dayton.

But no, seriously. The CAA South would retain the conference name, since they do all the work, and the North would become Blackfly Conference, maybe add a couple of teams, and UNH and UMass would play for the AQ every year. It would be a stronger tournament than giving the Pioneer League an AQ, as some have advocated.

[henfan]

I'm just wondering if Delaware and Villanova will be underwriting Maine's semi-annual trip to Atlanta.

xcoffeex

Nope, though host schools underwrite conference partners trips to their stadiums by way of guarantees.

BTW, who underwrites all of those trips that UMaine Olympic sports teams make down to Baltimore each year?

[mainejeff]

No one's holding a gun to Maine's head - if they want to leave, they can do so whenever they'd like. Nobody wants Maine to leave, mind you, so if they leave they leave of their own desire.

Btw, how much more expensive is it for Maine to go to Atlanta than it is Harrisonburg or Richmond or Williamsburg? xcoffeex

No......and now we'll have 2 plane trips instead of 1.......while the South has only 1 plane trip.......no one is holding a gun to Delaware or Villanova's head either. xsmiley_wix

[mainejeff]

Nope, though host schools underwrite conference partners trips to their stadiums by way of guarantees.

BTW, who underwrites all of those trips that UMaine Olympic sports teams make down to Baltimore each year?

We don't make Olympic sports trips to Baltimore EVERY year.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

So, GSU is becoming a burden to the CAA? Pretty strong words there, and he just may be right. If the CAA thought there was any chance GSU would be adding football in the future, would they have brought them in at all?

We all know about the football sponsorship desire by the CAA and Yeager. It' sno secret. And the A10 really had little interest in sponsoring it. But it took Yeager getting Northeastern, which sponsored football. But the CAA described the expansion moves are being about adding new/bigger markets. Sadly, NU is behind BU in it's own market. So Yeager approached College of Charleston (not falling into the big market scenario) but was publicly rejected. So they turned to Georgia St. of the TAAC/A-Sun. Then he was able to really push the "we expanded because of new market sizes".

It's sad to see. While conferences like the Summit, once the bottom of the conference realignment pecking order, are slowly becoming more focused on a single region, the CAA chose to spread their footprint even further. The "market" rationale, makes sense for more powerful conferences like the Big East and A10, but for a mid-major like the CAA, SoCon or Southland, it makes no sense. Could you imagine the Southland adding Jacksonville, just so they could add that market? Doing so would stretch their footprint from Jacksonville to Texas...which would be more convenient for travel than the Boston to Atlanta CAA.

[mainejeff]

Doing so would stretch their footprint from Jacksonville to Texas...which would be more convenient for travel than the Boston to Atlanta CAA.

I can't imagine that Northeastern and Hofstra like flying their Olympic sports teams down to Atlanta (or Wilmington for that matter).

[henfan]

We don't make Olympic sports trips to Baltimore EVERY year.

Are you saying there are some years where no UMaine sports teams are boarding flights for Baltimore? Since admitting UMBC to the AEC, in what year did UMaine teams NOT fly to Baltimore at least once? Did the MMB team not just visit Baltimore this past season? I'm guessing several other UMaine teams flew to Baltimore and several others locations, including at least one tournament that was held in Baltimore this past year.

Even if GSU ends up in the North division, I somehow doubt that trips to Atlanta every other year are going to break the bank for UMaine, so spare us the drama queen act, Jeff. It's not your money. It would be far more of a financial burden on GSU. UMaine will do what UMaine can afford, whether or not you think it's a great idea.

[henfan]

While conferences like the Summit, once the bottom of the conference realignment pecking order, are slowly becoming more focused on a single region, the CAA chose to spread their footprint even further.

As a UMass fan, you obviously you have a very high opinion of the A-10, as one would expect. However, it is not, nor will it ever be, in the same stratosphere as the Big East. At the end of the day, the A-10 is still a mid-major conference, albeit one with a more competitive MBB history than the CAA. That comes as no comfort to the dozen plus other A-10 sports teams that are being shipped out to STL & down to NC.

Not that I care one iota, but the A-10 expanding 300 miles south and 360 miles west made less sense than the CAA's move up and down the Eastern seaboard. But, hey, whatever; it's what the A-10 wanted to do. Time will be the judge as to which conference expansion proved more successful. In the meantime, the CAA's glad to host UMass, URI and the national champion Spider FB.xthumbsupx

[Jackman]

Am I the only person paying attention to this part of the article:

The league will allow [Georgia State] to play a modified CAA schedule - four games against each division. The remainder of the league will begin playing a five-and-three mix on a rotating basis in 2012. What this eventually means is that there will come a point when a school like ODU will find itself in a two-year loop playing a schedule without one of its natural rivals - William and Mary, for example - so it can make room for Georgia State.

If that's the plan, we've at last come upon a structure that does in fact violate LFN's pet provision, because round-robins won't be possible. We'd have to disband the divisions entirely to allow that. This whole mess is being caused because the full CAA members in the South won't step up and play their own damn conference mate. We never had a vote in this, and if we did, Georgia State wouldn't have gotten in. Why the hell should we have to interrupt an annual series against one of our neighbors that has gone on for nearly a century so that we can fly out to the South's problem member?

[GannonFan]

Am I the only person paying attention to this part of the article:


If that's the plan, we've at last come upon a structure that does in fact violate LFN's pet provision, because round-robins won't be possible. We'd have to disband the divisions entirely to allow that. This whole mess is being caused because the full CAA members in the South won't step up and play their own damn conference mate. We never had a vote in this, and if we did, Georgia State wouldn't have gotten in. Why the hell should we have to interrupt an annual series against one of our neighbors that has gone on for nearly a century so that we can fly out to the South's problem member?

Uh, I think you mean "all sport CAA teams", not just CAA South. I seem to remember Hofstra and Northeastern being in the CAA before GSU came along. And besides, the idea to leave the A10 and have the CAA administer the conference came about the same time that GSU was admitted to the conference - it's not like this came out of the blue. xthumbsupx

[elcid96]

Who cares about a CAA split. How about Blue Hen splitting with some of that blue hen beer and send me a case.

[mainejeff]

Am I the only person paying attention to this part of the article:


If that's the plan, we've at last come upon a structure that does in fact violate LFN's pet provision, because round-robins won't be possible. We'd have to disband the divisions entirely to allow that. This whole mess is being caused because the full CAA members in the South won't step up and play their own damn conference mate. We never had a vote in this, and if we did, Georgia State wouldn't have gotten in. Why the hell should we have to interrupt an annual series against one of our neighbors that has gone on for nearly a century so that we can fly out to the South's problem member?

Exactly! What henfan the drama queen fails to tell us is why the CAA South will not play their ALL-SPORT conference mate instead throwing them in with a bunch of New England teams......????

Putting an Atlanta based school in the Northern Division makes absolutely no sense no matter how much some fans try and justify it. The Northern schools plus Georgia State are a bunch of pussies for not standing up to Delaware and Villanova. Gotta give Delaware credit for wielding some mystical power over other schools.......it's been that way for ever.

[Jackman]

If Villanova was moved North, the South would be entirely full CAA members except for Richmond, while the North would be entirely non-CAA members except for Hofstra and Northeastern. It just doesn't make sense that the CAA South (minus Richmond), which flies teams out to Georgia State in every single other CAA sport, is suddenly balking in football and trying to stick us with that cost. And this proposal that Georgia State is going to get a special schedule playing 4 games against the North and 4 games against the South is the worst idea yet. You understand that some years that's going to break up the Delaware-Villanova game, right? The North will essentially have 6.5 members while the South has 7.5. We're not going to be able to preserve all annual games in that configuration. Putting Nova in the North but guaranteeing them an annual Delaware game would have been less disruptive than that arrangement.

The right move all along was 3 divisions: 5 in the North, 4 Central, 5 South. This 6.5/7.5 format simply couldn't look more half-assed.

[turbodean]

More fuel to the fire of speculation. Thorr Bjorn, the director of athletics at URI implies they are looking into league options because of of the CAA expansion - added "expenses" (related to increased travel).

- Providence Journal
http://www.projo.com/uri/content/projo-20090618-carothers-future.1f2a619.html

[bluehenbillk]

More fuel to the fire of speculation. Thorr Bjorn, the director of athletics at URI implies they are looking into league options because of of the CAA expansion - added "expenses" (related to increased travel).

- Providence Journal
http://www.projo.com/uri/content/projo-20090618-carothers-future.1f2a619.html

Thanks for reminding me that URI is in the CAA, almost forgot.

[henfan]

Exactly! What henfan the drama queen fails to tell us is why the CAA South will not play their ALL-SPORT conference mate instead throwing them in with a bunch of New England teams......????

Putting an Atlanta based school in the Northern Division makes absolutely no sense no matter how much some fans try and justify it. The Northern schools plus Georgia State are a bunch of pussies for not standing up to Delaware and Villanova. Gotta give Delaware credit for wielding some mystical power over other schools.......it's been that way for ever.

You're too funny, Jeff. It's always 'us vs. them' with you. Guy, nothing has been decided yet by the conference. You're overreacting (as usual) to speculation by a columnist.

Conference members will come together on a resolution that's acceptable, though maybe not perfect, to everyone involved. That's what the league has been doing since the '40s through expansion and defections. In the end, UMaine, UD and every other school will have an equal voice in whatever happens with scheduling in their FB league. They'll figure it out. It's not the end of the world.

Lighten up and be happy that your school is part of one of the most competitive FCS leagues in the country. Let the schools worry about the finances. After all, it's their money.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Conference members will come together on a resolution that's acceptable, though maybe not perfect, to everyone involved. That's what the league has been doing since the '40s through expansion and defections. In the end, UMaine, UD and every other school will have an equal voice in whatever happens with scheduling in their FB league. They'll figure it out. It's not the end of the world.

Lighten up and be happy that your school is part of one of the most competitive FCS leagues in the country. Let the schools worry about the finances. After all, it's their money.

I don't think that's the only beef the northern schools have with this. Delaware fans may forget URI is in their league, but UMass/URI (83 games), UNH/URI (83 games), UMaine/UNH (98 games) are historic rivalries spanning nearly 100 years. Breaking up any of these games - that generate a lot of excitement amongst their respective fan bases - so that they can pay for a flight to Georgia to play an expansion team in front of a sea of empty seat isn't in the interest of many of these schools.

The North schools, throughout the defections, etc., have always played each other. Georgia State would change that. And "they'll figure it out" isn't a good enough answer - matter of fact, it's clear the CAA leadership hasn't figured it out yet since they're having meetings on what's going to happen.

[GannonFan]

I don't think that's the only beef the northern schools have with this. Delaware fans may forget URI is in their league, but UMass/URI (83 games), UNH/URI (83 games), UMaine/UNH (98 games) are historic rivalries spanning nearly 100 years. Breaking up any of these games - that generate a lot of excitement amongst their respective fan bases - so that they can pay for a flight to Georgia to play an expansion team in front of a sea of empty seat isn't in the interest of many of these schools.

The North schools, throughout the defections, etc., have always played each other. Georgia State would change that. And "they'll figure it out" isn't a good enough answer - matter of fact, it's clear the CAA leadership hasn't figured it out yet since they're having meetings on what's going to happen.

You do know that "they'll" is a contraction of "they will", meaning that at some point in the future, it will happen. Of course they haven't figured it out yet, they haven't sat down to do it yet. Have patience, man, it's not rocket science or trying to crack the DNA code here, it's a scheduling arrangement.

As for the "historic rivalries" and such, first of all, let's not get carried away with URI here. I certainly respect the guys on here that are part of that fanbase, but it's not like those games are huge attendance games because the fanbase is so excited. And just like any other scheduling arrangement, I'm sure they can figure out a way to keep the real important historic rivalries (like the JMU/Towson one for instance) intact every year. They came up with a way to do it in basketball, football's not that much harder of a nut to crack.

[Tribe4SF]

LFN will go on about how bad things are in the CAA no matter what gets decided. If he wants to harp on a lack of answers from a conference, he should stick to his own. The CAA's issues are about a wealth of assets... the PL's are about survival. The CAA will have answers in advance of the need... the PL needed answers some time ago.

[mainejeff]

There was quite a bit to chew on in that ProJo article......

1. The Hofstra President wants out of the CAA.
2. Charlotte is clearly on the CAA radar.
3. URI will be cutting football travel expenses........how they are going to do that is beyond me. I guess if they schedule Brown and Bryant every season, that would certainly help.

[Jackman]

More fuel to the fire of speculation. Thorr Bjorn, the director of athletics at URI implies they are looking into league options because of of the CAA expansion - added "expenses" (related to increased travel).

- Providence Journal
http://www.projo.com/uri/content/projo-20090618-carothers-future.1f2a619.html

That's not Bjorn saying that, it's Carothers (sp?), URI's president, who will soon be out of a job. Bjorn is putting out fires in that article and saying nothing is changing.

[henfan]

There was quite a bit to chew on in that ProJo article......

1. The Hofstra President wants out of the CAA.
2. Charlotte is clearly on the CAA radar.

Well, considering the comments were made by Robert Carothers and, alas, not by Hofstra, Charlotte or the CAA, I'll take it for what it's worth.

When Carothers makes statements like “The Colonial keeps expanding . . . and more and more it gets out of our marketing footprint. We’re not recruiting in those states, and it doesn’t do us any good to go there," you've got to wonder about the man's credibility. That statement seems odd when you consider that a good chunk of the A-10 is outside of his school's "marketing footprint," whatever that is. Is URI really recruiting a lot of students outside of RI, MA, NH, CT & NY? If they are, they sure as heck aren't heavily mining for students in places like western PA, OH, MO, NC, VA and DC, all places where URI regularly ships their Olympic sport teams.

So, is Carothers a hypocrite or just bad at marketing his school?xconfusedx

[bluehenbillk]

I was just glad to hear URI is recruiting. xsmiley_wix

[blukeys]

LFN will go on about how bad things are in the CAA no matter what gets decided. If he wants to harp on a lack of answers from a conference, he should stick to his own. The CAA's issues are about a wealth of assets... the PL's are about survival. The CAA will have answers in advance of the need... the PL needed answers some time ago.

Great Post and right on target. Every other conference would kill for the kinds of "problems" the CAA has, Too many schools who want to be members.

The Patriot League used to own NEC in competiveness and now those days are over. An affiliate member, Fordham, is dictacting the pace of scolly decisions and may leave. The PL may have to take on those highly recommended Marist Red Foxes to keep the conference numbers up. Yes, it is the CAA who is in trouble.

It is all to common for those who are failing to lash out and attack someone else to divert attention from their own failures. Tribe has hit on this and I am in awe!!!xbowxxbowxxbowxxbowxxbowxxbowxxbowxxbowx

The jealousy directed at the CAA is not to be believed and I am glad that Tribe et al. have recognized this. According to some the CAA is the source of all evil.

Tribe as much as I loved your post.
You forgot to mention how bad the CAA is for the rest of FCS. xsmiley_wixxsmiley_wixxsmiley_wix

[Jackman]

Well, considering the comments were made by Robert Carothers and, alas, not by Hofstra, Charlotte or the CAA, I'll take it for what it's worth.

When Carothers makes statements like “The Colonial keeps expanding . . . and more and more it gets out of our marketing footprint. We’re not recruiting in those states, and it doesn’t do us any good to go there," you've got to wonder about the man's credibility. That statement seems odd when you consider that a good chunk of the A-10 is outside of his school's "marketing footprint," whatever that is. Is URI really recruiting a lot of students outside of RI, MA, NH, CT & NY? If they are, they sure as heck aren't heavily mining for students in places like western PA, OH, MO, NC, VA and DC, all places where URI regularly ships their Olympic sport teams.

So, is Carothers a hypocrite or just bad at marketing his school?xconfusedx

I'm not sure if it's in that article or another one in the series, but Carothers also said URI should be out of the A10 and in an old Yankee or America East type conference. That ain't happening, but he isn't a hypocrite, he's just naive.

[mainejeff]

And the fact of the matter is that economics and budgets will dictate future affiliations no matter how much anyone wants to deny it. xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN will go on about how bad things are in the CAA...


Great Post and right on target. Every other conference would kill for the kinds of "problems" the CAA has, Too many schools who want to be members....According to some the CAA is the source of all evil...You forgot to mention how bad the CAA is for the rest of FCS.

So it's come to this: my arguments are bad because I'm jealous of the CAA. When did I ever say things are bad for the CAA? When did I say that the CAA is the source of all evil?

The only thing I have mentioned is that the CAA may be running afoul of what it means to be a football conference - something that is theoretically revisited by the NCAA every year a "conference champion formula" is changed. After being told it wasn't my business, it came out that indeed some of the conglomerations WERE indeed in violation of what the NCAA defines as a conference - and even the ones that seemed to fit the rules seemed dicey at best. And since how the CAA structures itself as a conference affects the autobid and at-large bid structure, it's an issue that affects all of FCS - something that CAA fans seem incredulous about.

Then the argument shifted: "Well, the members of the CAA are happy." Well, it's obvious that NOT everybody is happy with breaking up 85 year old rivalries to invite an opponent from over 1,000 miles away to play at a near-empty stadium. But don't take my word for it. Just read the thread, and realize that's not a point *I* made.

I'm sorry that folks are upset that I have an opinion backed by facts, corroborated by other (CAA) posters, posted in a thread called "Possible Future Split of the CAA?" Then again, it always seems like it's the same posters who always seem to be denying that there is any potential issue with the CAA at all - that all the members are sitting together singing cum-ba-ya, roasting marshmallows while thinking about how they're going to expand without any repercussions or changes to their "championship" formula - despite the fact that two years ago two divisional champions finished undefeated and had to have their "champion" determined by a coin flip, as if the coin-flip tiebreaker is highly desirable as a method to determine a champion.

If my opinions have offended or shattered anyone's view of a completely unified, perfect CAA, with a real conference champion, I apologize. I guess my posts have rankled some who would rather just ignore the growing discussions among the CAA ADs, the CAA commissioner, and the media that the size of the CAA, and their inability to determine a true conference champion are a growing problem and may even cause them to butt heads with the NCAA in the future.

[henfan]

The only thing I have mentioned is that the CAA may be running afoul of what it means to be a football conference - something that is theoretically revisited by the NCAA every year a "conference champion formula" is changed. After being told it wasn't my business, it came out that indeed some of the conglomerations WERE indeed in violation of what the NCAA defines as a conference - and even the ones that seemed to fit the rules seemed dicey at best. And since how the CAA structures itself as a conference affects the autobid and at-large bid structure...

It may be your interpretation but it's certainly not a fact that the CAA has 'run afoul' of the NCAA's definition of conference eligibility for an autobid. Important to note that the NCAA has not even hinted that this might be the case. If the CAA ever violates NCCAA bylaws regarding conference eligibility for any reason, the NCAA will make a determination on the autobid accordingly.

Further, the CAA has not proposed any changes to its conference championship formula. If that ever should happen, the NCAA will review the formula and make a determination on whether or not the CAA's autobid eligibility should be impacted.

Until any of that happens, if ever, it's reasonable to distinguish wishful rhetoric from reality.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

And the fact of the matter is that economics and budgets will dictate future affiliations no matter how much anyone wants to deny it. xnodx

Simple and 100% to the point. xhurrayxxhurrayxxhurrayx

[CollegeSportsInfo]

3 CAA divisions is easy.....

North
UNH
Maine
URI
UMass
Northeastern

Central
Hofstra
Towson
Delaware
Villanova
Albany

South
W&M
ODU
JMU
GSU
Richmond

4 division games.
4 interdivisional games (2 from each division)
3 OOC games

xsmiley_wix

It seems that you misspelled Stonybrook when you typed A-l-b-a-n-y. The alternative spelling would work too: F-o-r-d-h-a-m ;)

[CollegeSportsInfo]

The most interesting thing in that article is the statement that the current plan is for Georgia State to go to the North. Also states that the league is looking at a 5-3 split of division games, with no round robin in the divisions. I don't think that will fly with the NCAA.

Stupid, just stupid. Even putting aside the basic travel (New England schools and an Atlanta school)...come on, what good for rivalries is that? At least with GSU in the south, you get to build on the existing CAA all-sports rivalries (and yes, a "regional" southern rivalry potentially with Richmond). Come on CAA, make some sense. Next thing you know they'll be inviting lowly northeastern just so they can sponsor football...oh wait, did that already.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

If the CAA wants to expand to 16, I know of a school from Conway, SC that would be an excellent travel partner for Georgia State.

:D

The same school that many CAA fans wanted (especially at UNCW) once CofC rejected the CAA invite that went to Georgia St.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

The same year that we joined the CAA - the SoCon kicked out ETSU because they dropped football. If we had any plans to start football at that time - we could have been a candidate to take ETSU's place. I don't know how Georgia Southern would have felt about that - but with them to our south and UT-Chattanooga to our north it would have been a much better fit.

But at the time we were a basketball school and all our decisions were based around that. Obviously, the CAA is a much better basketball conference than the SoCon - so when we were invited to play in the CAA we jumped on it. Note: i'm not trying to say the SoCon approached us, or even that being a member of the SoCon was even on the table for Georgia State I'm just thinking out loud.


i wonder if the SoCon ever contacted Georgia St. about joining prior to Samford coming on board.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

As a UMass fan, you obviously you have a very high opinion of the A-10, as one would expect. However, it is not, nor will it ever be, in the same stratosphere as the Big East. At the end of the day, the A-10 is still a mid-major conference, albeit one with a more competitive MBB history than the CAA. That comes as no comfort to the dozen plus other A-10 sports teams that are being shipped out to STL & down to NC.

Not that I care one iota, but the A-10 expanding 300 miles south and 360 miles west made less sense than the CAA's move up and down the Eastern seaboard. But, hey, whatever; it's what the A-10 wanted to do. Time will be the judge as to which conference expansion proved more successful. In the meantime, the CAA's glad to host UMass, URI and the national champion Spider FB.xthumbsupx

My impressions of the A10 are based on national perception and performance, regardless of where I went to school. The numbers tell us that. If you were to ask 10 people about the A10 vs the CAA, 10 would mention the A10...unless the 10th was a fan of a CAA school.

And yes, the A10 with 14 teams has bottom feeders like Fordham, St. Bonaventure and LaSalle that drag the conference down. But even with those weights, the A10 still ranks as the top or just outside the 6 BCS conferences. Hell, just this season when Fordham was one of the worst programs, the A10 still ranked #8 in RPI with only the 9 team MWC ranked above them and before the BCS 6.

As for most recent expansion: the A10 added St. Louis and Charlotte. The CAA added Northeastern and Georgia St. I'd love to hear an argument/comparison about the A10 moves...I could use a laugh. Both programs the A10 added were stronger than one the Big East selected (DePaul). Charlotte could have chosen the CAA, but didn't. St. Louis could have chosen the MVC but they didn't. There was a reason...and we're back to the numbers/perception/revenue.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

In the meantime, the CAA's glad to host UMass, URI and the national champion Spider FB.xthumbsupx

Host? I thought that the 12 members were all equal since it's a football league ;)

[CollegeSportsInfo]

There was quite a bit to chew on in that ProJo article......

1. The Hofstra President wants out of the CAA.
2. Charlotte is clearly on the CAA radar.
3. URI will be cutting football travel expenses........how they are going to do that is beyond me. I guess if they schedule Brown and Bryant every season, that would certainly help.

The solution is simple:
Allow and encourage the formation of a new regional football league where members can be in for football-only while other sports remain in their primary conference:

* Hofstra & NU want to be in the CAA for basketball since it was an upgrade over the America East
* Richmond and Charlotte want (would want for Charlotte once football is formed) to be in the A10 for basketball but CAA for football.
* Villanova wants to be in the CAA due to their great local rivalry with UD and overall travel to UD, Towson, Richmond, JMU.



And there you have it: 2 happy homes for football members to save a few bucks while still sponsoring the sport they love:

Yankee (AE/A10) Football Conference:
Maine
UNH
Northeastern
UMass
URI
Albany
Fordham
Stonybrook
Hofstra

CAA Football League:
Villanova
Delaware
Towson
JMU
Richmond
ODU
W&M
Charlotte
Georgia St.


Bam! Over with. Enjoy the local rivalries, ease of travel, better budgets and the great sport of football!

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I'm not sure if it's in that article or another one in the series, but Carothers also said URI should be out of the A10 and in an old Yankee or America East type conference. That ain't happening, but he isn't a hypocrite, he's just naive.

Agreed. URI spent $$$ for the arena...to play basketball against schools like UMass, Xavier, Temple, Dayton, St. Joes, Charlotte and St. Louis...not Maine, UNH, Binghamton and UMBC.

[Redwyn]

The solution is simple:
Allow and encourage the formation of a new regional football league where members can be in for football-only while other sports remain in their primary conference:

* Hofstra & NU want to be in the CAA for basketball since it was an upgrade over the America East
* Richmond and Charlotte want (would want for Charlotte once football is formed) to be in the A10 for basketball but CAA for football.
* Villanova wants to be in the CAA due to their great local rivalry with UD and overall travel to UD, Towson, Richmond, JMU.



And there you have it: 2 happy homes for football members to save a few bucks while still sponsoring the sport they love:

Yankee (AE/A10) Football Conference:
Maine
UNH
Northeastern
UMass
URI
Albany
Fordham
Stonybrook
Hofstra

CAA Football League:
Villanova
Delaware
Towson
JMU
Richmond
ODU
W&M
Charlotte
Georgia St.


Bam! Over with. Enjoy the local rivalries, ease of travel, better budgets and the great sport of football!

Alignment looks good....Just wish it was that easy...

[UAalum72]

It seems that you misspelled Stonybrook when you typed A-l-b-a-n-y. The alternative spelling would work too: F-o-r-d-h-a-m ;)
Of course Stony Brook is actually spelled 'capital S'-t-o-n-y (space) 'capital B'-r-o-o-k, but even their own fans often get it wrong.

[Seawolf97]

Alignment looks good....Just wish it was that easy...

As I just posted in another thread looks great, makes some financial sense, rivalries almost intact, fan friendly for travel. Piece of cake until the politics of such a creation unfold. That could be major sticikng point.xsmhx

[Jackman]

And there you have it: 2 happy homes for football members to save a few bucks while still sponsoring the sport they love:

Yankee (AE/A10) Football Conference:
Maine
UNH
Northeastern
UMass
URI
Albany
Fordham
Stonybrook
Hofstra


That conference is a perfect fit for everyone involved, once you take UMass out of it. I don't mean to pick a fight with every single FCS program in the northeast, but we know by now that we can't trust Fordham to take sports seriously. Albany doesn't have a stadium. Northeastern doesn't have a stadium and never will. UNH doesn't have a stadium and shows no sign of ever wanting to build one. URI's stadium is falling down and they're good at most once per decade. Hofstra is always our most poorly attended game. Maine isn't any closer to us than Villanova and Delaware. Stony Brook... yeah, a bus ride to Stony Brook is cheaper than a flight to one of the Virginian alphabet soup schools, but you know what's even cheaper than a bus ride to Stony Brook? Not going to Stony Brook. Right now we only have to play them at home. We have more than twice the attendance of every single name on that list except New Hampshire, which needs to maintain regular capacity crowds to avoid falling into the same category.

I mean, who are we trying to be, Montana-Northeast? With UNH as our Montana State? Frankly, we're not good enough to be Montana. We don't have a captive football audience. We need to be in a serious conference to be taken seriously, and even then it's a struggle. We can't even trust Northeastern and URI to keep playing football. If they drop out, there's nobody left to replace them.

Again though, the other 8 look great together. Fordham might be disappointed by the overall academic profile and would rather be in a full scholly Patriot, but attendance-wise they're all in the same ballpark. I can understand why anyone other than UMass would like that conference.

[Seawolf97]

That conference is a perfect fit for everyone involved, once you take UMass out of it. I don't mean to pick a fight with every single FCS program in the northeast, but we know by now that we can't trust Fordham to take sports seriously. Albany doesn't have a stadium. Northeastern doesn't have a stadium and never will. UNH doesn't have a stadium and shows no sign of ever wanting to build one. URI's stadium is falling down and they're good at most once per decade. Hofstra is always our most poorly attended game. Maine isn't any closer to us than Villanova and Delaware. Stony Brook... yeah, a bus ride to Stony Brook is cheaper than a flight to one of the Virginian alphabet soup schools, but you know what's even cheaper than a bus ride to Stony Brook? Not going to Stony Brook. Right now we only have to play them at home. We have more than twice the attendance of every single name on that list except New Hampshire, which needs to maintain regular capacity crowds to avoid falling into the same category.

I mean, who are we trying to be, Montana-Northeast? With UNH as our Montana State? Frankly, we're not good enough to be Montana. We don't have a captive football audience. We need to be in a serious conference to be taken seriously, and even then it's a struggle. We can't even trust Northeastern and URI to keep playing football. If they drop out, there's nobody left to replace them.

Again though, the other 8 look great together. Fordham might be disappointed by the overall academic profile and would rather be in a full scholly Patriot, but attendance-wise they're all in the same ballpark. I can understand why anyone other than UMass would like that conference.

I cant disagree with you. You have great fan base, you are just far enough outside the Boston area so you dont feel the pro sports mania and you win more often than lose . Pity poor Fordham actually in the shadows of the new Yankee
Stadium with a home game on a Saturday in September and the Yankees at home. Plus many of the other reasons you mentioned are legit and Im sure
many AD's would look at that . Hate to be negative but thats why something like this would be difficult at best to sell. Besides if and when the economy picks up and endowments fatten up again this discussion is moot.

[blukeys]

So it's come to this: my arguments are bad because I'm jealous of the CAA. When did I ever say things are bad for the CAA? When did I say that the CAA is the source of all evil?

The only thing I have mentioned is that the CAA may be running afoul of what it means to be a football conference - something that is theoretically revisited by the NCAA every year a "conference champion formula" is changed. After being told it wasn't my business, it came out that indeed some of the conglomerations WERE indeed in violation of what the NCAA defines as a conference - and even the ones that seemed to fit the rules seemed dicey at best. And since how the CAA structures itself as a conference affects the autobid and at-large bid structure, it's an issue that affects all of FCS - something that CAA fans seem incredulous about.

Then the argument shifted: "Well, the members of the CAA are happy." Well, it's obvious that NOT everybody is happy with breaking up 85 year old rivalries to invite an opponent from over 1,000 miles away to play at a near-empty stadium. But don't take my word for it. Just read the thread, and realize that's not a point *I* made.

I'm sorry that folks are upset that I have an opinion backed by facts, corroborated by other (CAA) posters, posted in a thread called "Possible Future Split of the CAA?" Then again, it always seems like it's the same posters who always seem to be denying that there is any potential issue with the CAA at all - that all the members are sitting together singing cum-ba-ya, roasting marshmallows while thinking about how they're going to expand without any repercussions or changes to their "championship" formula - despite the fact that two years ago two divisional champions finished undefeated and had to have their "champion" determined by a coin flip, as if the coin-flip tiebreaker is highly desirable as a method to determine a champion.

If my opinions have offended or shattered anyone's view of a completely unified, perfect CAA, with a real conference champion, I apologize. I guess my posts have rankled some who would rather just ignore the growing discussions among the CAA ADs, the CAA commissioner, and the media that the size of the CAA, and their inability to determine a true conference champion are a growing problem and may even cause them to butt heads with the NCAA in the future.

Give me a break. You exposed that NOT EVERYONE IS HAPPY and your proof is posters on this board???? If everyone is so dissatisfied then they would leave the conference. You have been on a non stop totally failed campaign to get Villanova and Richmond to come to the PL. So far ZERO, NADA, BUPKIS for your efforts.

Maybe you have so little experience in human relations that you believe that 14 different institutions could in your words be "completely unified" in any world.

The fact is I am amazed that 14 such divergent and diverse institutions have so little to complain about that someone from another conference has to stir things up.

Will the CAA have problems to be resolved. Yes. Will they resolve them. Yes.

Will the Patriot League ever grow up and get out of the shadow of the Ivies? Who knows. Will the PL recruit the likes of the Marist Red Foxes to compete as the red headed step child in the Ivy League family?

No one knows the answer to that either. Let's just change the subject to the CAA. ;)

[Tribe4SF]

....thinking about how they're going to expand without any repercussions or changes to their "championship" formula - despite the fact that two years ago two divisional champions finished undefeated and had to have their "champion" determined by a coin flip, as if the coin-flip tiebreaker is highly desirable as a method to determine a champion.


Since you're interested in facts, you need to get your terminology straight. When two teams from the CAA tie for the championship, they are both champions, and both have the trophies to prove it. The tie-breaker formula (not "championship" formula) is used only to determine the conferences automatic qualifier for the playoffs. There's no separate trophy given for that distinction.