Kudos-Fordham-bet they join CAA spin-off after 2011

[Brad82]

http://64.246.64.33/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/news/news.aspx?id=4235892

Fordham-Great move,great coach,-underrated program.
Heard CAA break-up in/after 2011 from sources.
Would love to see them go off with Rhody and other NE/NY teams:

Fordham
Hofstra
Stony Brook
Rhode Island
UMASS
UNH
Maine
Northeastern

Right off bat-4 top 20 teams!

others-Bryant,CCSU?-take wasted $$ in travel costs and put into facilities.
Rhody-keep Brown,one FCS team on schedule,rotate former CAA partners and PL teams. Makes too much sense?

[jmufan999]

Heard CAA break-up in/after 2011 from sources.

which sources?

[Wildcat80]

Can any Fordham supporters shed any light on the sources of funding for football? I applaud the move but everyone else is pleading financial hardship. Why is Fordham not affected? Also are there any plans for the stadium?

[OLPOP]

It's level funding. The same $s are spent now, but on a "need" basis.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Brad,

Who did you hear was administering this spin-off league? Is it an all sports league? How are all sports CAA members Hofstra and Northeastern getting out of their commitment to the CAA? Doesn't make much sense to me when there's no way they're playing football anywhere but the CAA as long as they're all sports members! Which CAA South schools are you counting on to keep Rhody on their schedule?

xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

I'm open minded but I don't see this happening unless the CAA expands even further and has two nine team divisions or three six team divisions or something of that ilk. I just don't see how it happens otherwise unless Northeastern and Hofstra change their all sports affiliation. xpeacex

[Fordham]

Can any Fordham supporters shed any light on the sources of funding for football? I applaud the move but everyone else is pleading financial hardship. Why is Fordham not affected? Also are there any plans for the stadium?

what 'ol pop said. here is the announcement from our site and it addresses your question:

Fordham going scholarship - OH YEAH!! (http://www.fordhamsports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/060509aad.html)


Does this decision involve new or additional funding?

No. Existing funds that are presently allocated to the football program for need-based athletic scholarships will be reallocated for the athletic scholarships. No additional monies will be used to fund the scholarships. In essence, this decision involves a strategic reinvestment of existing funding.

[mainejeff]

Egos will prevent any type of common sense arrangement from happening.........then again, $$$ issues may force the issue.

xcoffeex

[Seawolf97]

Egos will prevent any type of common sense arrangement from happening.........then again, $$$ issues may force the issue.

xcoffeex

Could be an interesting conference though . Pretty limited travel kept in the Northeast. Especially if it is all sports -all those home and aways in basketball for conference games.
We will see xreadx

[LUHawker]

If the PL moves to a some type of scholly-model, then I think Fordham stays exactly where it is, in the Patriot League. FU wants to stay and I think stays in the PL even if there is movement in other conferences or even this speculated conference materializes.

Based upon the announcement that Fordham is moving to scholarships and Lehigh's official statement on this move, the PL will have some form of scholarships within a couple of years and therefore, Fordham will stay.

With scholarships, I think you'll see the Patriot League emerge as one of the better conferences in FCS.

[Brad82]

I heard from hard-working,honest people closer to program than I re. CAA split-up.
It is just wishful thinking on my part as to how re-aligned conference would look.
I am skeptical as anyone as idea makes too much sense.
If CAA was split up in say two separete conferences-call the other the "Yankee conference"-might there be a better chance to actually get more teams in play-offs?

Also,probably might be incorrect to automatically assume travel costs will be put into infrastructure or recruiting.
Could be kicked into general budget.

[blukeys]

WOW Fordham just took the PL behind the woodshed and paddled their respective fannies until they were red. This is a win, win, win for Fordham.

1. Fordham is still in the Pl and eligible for the 2009 PL AQ.

2. Fordham will begin offering scolly's for 2010. (the 2009 recruiting class is already recruited and admitted. This is no concession by Fordham and a big concession by the PL There is no immediate penalty for Fordham)

3. Fordham has PL conference games guaranteed after they go scolly. In short they have guaranteed games against opponents who are not scolly but FCS.

What are the chances of Fordham not getting an at large playoff bid if they win the PL from 2010 onward in the expanded playoff system? With the current announced Fordham schedule they are an at large lock if they handle the PL teams.

Fordham probably had the stronger hand in this but in the end they played it beautifully. Fordham gave up nothing while the PL fuddy duds try to pretend to their adherents that this was a compromise.

Yes and the Munich agreement of 1938 was called a compromise but we all know who won that one. xrolleyesxxrolleyesx

[mainejeff]

WOW Fordham just took the PL behind the woodshed and paddled their respective fannies until they were red. This is a win, win, win for Fordham.

1. Fordham is still in the Pl and eligible for the 2009 PL AQ.

2. Fordham will begin offering scolly's for 2010. (the 2009 recruiting class is already recruited and admitted. This is no concession by Fordham and a big concession by the PL There is no immediate penalty for Fordham)

3. Fordham has PL conference games guaranteed after they go scolly. In short they have guaranteed games against opponents who are not scolly but FCS.

What are the chances of Fordham not getting an at large playoff bid if they win the PL from 2010 onward in the expanded playoff system? With the current announced Fordham schedule they are an at large lock if they handle the PL teams.

Fordham probably had the stronger hand in this but in the end they played it beautifully. Fordham gave up nothing while the PL fuddy duds try to pretend to their adherents that this was a compromise.

Yes and the Munich agreement of 1938 was called a compromise but we all know who won that one. xrolleyesxxrolleyesx

Agreed. Well played Fordham! xbowx

[89Hen]

Heard CAA break-up in/after 2011 from sources.
Would love to see them go off with Rhody and other NE/NY teams:

Fordham
Hofstra
Stony Brook
Rhode Island
UMASS
UNH
Maine
Northeastern

Right off bat-4 top 20 teams!
And where are Hofstra and Northeastern going to put the rest of their sports?

[89Hen]

3. Fordham has PL conference games guaranteed after they go scolly. In short they have guaranteed games against opponents who are not scolly but FCS.

What are the chances of Fordham not getting an at large playoff bid if they win the PL from 2010 onward in the expanded playoff system? With the current announced Fordham schedule they are an at large lock if they handle the PL teams.
If Fordham goes undefeated against PL teams... that would make their automatic big a little tainted. xeyebrowx

[NU Hound29]

The only way I think NU will leave the CAA for all sports is if a new conference emerged that included both URI and UMass basketball, I don't see that happening.

There would be zero plus side (I guess except travel costs) to going back to a conference with Maine, UNH, etc. We just left that conference in 2005!

Its URI and UMass with the bouncy ball or CAA I think....

[Dane96]

Nope....there is going to be nothing for NU with URI and UMASS unless the re-emergence of the Yankee happens.

PATRIOT LEAGUE BOUND IS MORE LIKELY.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

WOW Fordham just took the PL behind the woodshed and paddled their respective fannies until they were red. This is a win, win, win for Fordham...

You miss the one huge concession that Fordham did make: that they were going to be adhering to the AI for the whole league. They could have said "goodbye" and ditched the AI starting in 2010, but they chose not to.

If Fordham were looking for a transition year on their way to the CAA (or some other mythical CAA breakup-fueled conference), they sure picked a weird way to do it by choosing to adhere to the same rules and academic information-sharing that the rest of the Patriot League uses.

I stand by what I wrote in the blog:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/06/4th-down-and-fordham-and-patriot-league.html


It's an agreement that leaves plenty of fudge room for both Fordham and the Patriot League. If the League chooses to implement scholarships, Fordham will retroactively be "part of the league" - and will have been part of the league all along. If Fordham chooses to go to another conference for football, they don't need to wait for the League to finally decide on football scholarships and can honestly say they did "all they can do", even going as far as continuing to implement the AI when they didn't have to.

Most importantly, it delays any Patriot League decision on scholarships to the future, while allowing Fordham to blaze forward in their goal to offer the same type of athletic aid that schools like Hofstra, Delaware, and Albany offer. Fordham can take action, and the Patriot League can stand still and see if they want to decide.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nope....there is going to be nothing for NU with URI and UMASS unless the re-emergence of the Yankee happens.

PATRIOT LEAGUE BOUND IS MORE LIKELY.

And seems even more likely in a PL with merit-based aid for football.

Here's something else to get the juices flowing: Wouldn't Army, Colgate, Holy Cross and Northeastern be an intriguing base for a Patriot League hockey league??? Add in the five hockey-playing Ivy League members (Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard, Yale, Cornell) and a 10th team (RPI)?

xeyebrowx

[aceinthehole]

And seems even more likely in a PL with merit-based aid for football.

Here's something else to get the juices flowing: Wouldn't Army, Colgate, Holy Cross and Northeastern be an intriguing base for a Patriot League hockey league??? Add in the five hockey-playing Ivy League members (Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard, Yale, Cornell) and a 10th team (RPI)?

xeyebrowx

Why on God's green earth would NU leave Hockey East? Army and Holy Cross play limited-scholly hockey in Atlantic Hockey. HC was even recently snubbed by the ECAC in favor of Quinnipiac!

I will grant you the FU/PL deal gives both sides some time to sort things out. It was a mutually benificial compromise. But lets not start speculating that the PL is going to pass CAA football or ECAC Hockey as a conference destination anytime in the near future.

[89Hen]

They really don't need to wait for a split in the CAA, they can have UD's spot when the Hens move to the Big East in two years. xsmiley_wix

[Fordham]

I agree with LFN here - if the PL moves/allows scholarships when they revisit this issue I believe that we'll stay here.

It's been very interesting to see some of the responses to this move, though, and some of the assumptions that are being made on various boards. Columbia's board (actually "roar, lions, roar") has most posters up in arms saying that they need to end the series now before blow-outs and injuries occur and saying that we want to be the next Rutgers. It's odd b/c they've recently played Towson and I don't think any of their fans were worried about injuries or blowouts when they played them. Many (not all) Colgate posters are saying were never a good fit in the PL and are discussing who our replacements will be. HC seems to be very complementary and hoping that they follow suit, although most posters seem skeptical given previous comment from their President. Interesting stuff.

FWIW, no one I know at Fordham expects this to change the product on the field dramatically - just that it'll help open up recruiting a bit and possibly save us some money on recruiting since we should be able to do it more locally than previously. Nor do we aspire to anything other than trying to be among the best in FCS. This move is viewed more so as a no brainer - what other change could you make that would have a positive impact on the program but not cost anything additional to implement?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why on God's green earth would NU leave Hockey East?

http://www.hockeyeastonline.com/men/tourney/heancaas.php


HOCKEY EAST PROGRAMS ALL-TIME IN THE DIVISION-I NCAA TOURNAMENT (1948-2008)
School App. Last Frozen 4 Runner-up Titles Record
Boston College 28 2008 21 6 3 (1949, 2001, 2008) 37-37-0
Boston University 30 2007 20 5 4 (‘71, ‘72, ‘78, ‘95) 34-33-0
Maine 17 2007 11 3 2 (1993, 1999) 30-19-0
...
Northeastern 3 1994 1 0 0 3-3-1

http://www.telegram.com/article/20090321/NEWS/903210485/1009


Holy Cross will offer athletic scholarships in men's ice hockey, men's and women's soccer and field hockey beginning this fall.

I'm not saying it will happen, but it's certainly not as outlandish as it once was - especially considering that HC is now offering hockey scholarships. And it's not like Colgate, Cornell, Harvard, Yale and RPI are chopped liver - these are all national players competitively with high academics.

[NU Hound29]

Yea what that neglects to mention is that NU finished second this year and also made the NCAA tournament.

NU is not, and I repeat is NOT leaving Hockey East.

No way. No how.

The Ivies aren't leaving each other, the only thing they might do is totally leave the ECAC but I find that unlikely too.


Nope....there is going to be nothing for NU with URI and UMASS unless the re-emergence of the Yankee happens.

PATRIOT LEAGUE BOUND IS MORE LIKELY.

I don't think anything is happening with those guys either, other than that we are not leaving the CAA though....

[aceinthehole]

http://www.hockeyeastonline.com/men/tourney/heancaas.php



http://www.telegram.com/article/20090321/NEWS/903210485/1009



I'm not saying it will happen, but it's certainly not as outlandish as it once was - especially considering that HC is now offering hockey scholarships. And it's not like Colgate, Cornell, Harvard, Yale and RPI are chopped liver - these are all national players competitively with high academics.


Sorry, here is where you just continue spout "possiblities" without looking into the realities.

NU values its Hockey East memebrship likely more than anything in its athletic depart. I'll let NU fans take over here, but it is TOTALLY ABSURD to suggest they'd look to leave conference mates Boston U., Maine, Boston College, Providence, etc. in hokey for Colgate, Holy Cross and Army!

Colgate is the only memebr of ECAC hockey right now. How do you suggest the PL is going to lead a takeovover of the ECAC Hockey, while HC and ARmy are in the lowly Atlantic Hockey, and bring aboard the Ivys?

In one breath many longtime PL followers think this deal with Fordham is the deathknell of the conference, other think this will forge the PL into something as strong as the CAA. Everyone who follows the PL is all over the map on this one. As a journalist (if you consider yourself one), you need to take a step back and examine the immediate realities and not speculate on outrageous possiblities.

IMO - you try to be a palm reader with ever little piece of news, instead of trying to build a puzzle based on larger trends.

[Dane96]

I wouldnt be surprised to see NU leave for the Patriot. In fact, if offered...bet your arse they are going to the PL.

Whether the offer comes is another question.

I think NU Husky would agree that NU would be gone if a legitimate offer were made by the PL.

[NU Hound29]

I wouldnt be surprised to see NU leave for the Patriot. In fact, if offered...bet your arse they are going to the PL.

Whether the offer comes is another question.

I think NU Husky would agree that NU would be gone if a legitimate offer were made by the PL.

It would certainly be thought long and hard about.

What are the scholarships like in basketball in the PL?


NU values its Hockey East memebrship likely more than anything in its athletic depart. I'll let NU fans take over here, but it is TOTALLY ABSURD to suggest they'd look to leave conference mates Boston U., Maine, Boston College, Providence, etc. in hokey for Colgate, Holy Cross and Army!

This is dead on. We are not leaving. Period.

[Dane96]

There would be no scholarship issues for NU.

And I can pretty much guarantee you this: If offered...the thought process will take about 20 seconds for NU. IT would be a wet dream for them to be associated with the PL schools academically.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It would certainly be thought long and hard about.

What are the scholarships like in basketball in the PL?

NU would be able to offer basketball scholarships, period. All the PL schools offer b-ball schollies to a varying degree.

I'm not saying that NU would leave Hockey East tomorrow to help form PL hockey, but you have to admit there is some synergy forming with four PL scholarship programs, and some possible pull with Ivy League hockey teams and RPI.

Folks scoff at "absurd" since HC and Army are in "Atlantic Hockey" -- but then overlook that HC is now planning on becoming a scholarship hockey program (and Army, for all practical purposes, already is), RPI is a scholarship hockey program, and the big-time Ivy programs in effect are scholarship hockey programs.

Furthermore:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/ranking?key=GENUSAMENSHOCKEYPOLL


1. BOSTON UNIV (34) (35-6-4) 510 1
3. VERMONT (22-12-5) 402 3
6. NEW HAMPSHIRE (20-13-5) 290 6

10. YALE (24-8-2) 194 13
11. NORTHEASTERN (25-12-4) 190 11
12. CORNELL (22-10-4) 184 9
15. PRINCETON (22-12-1) 92 15

You make it seem like my proposed conference would be a suck-fest - yet my proposed conference would comprise of 4 of the top 15 hockey programs in the country last year, and not a dud among them.

Look, I'm not saying this will happen this year. But clearly we're out of "don't be ridiculous' to 'most likely not.' That's a huge difference, and the potential exists 5-10 years down the road to make a hockey conference like that happen.

[RichH2]

Know little about hockey, care less. great sport for those fans.

NU , I agree would be nice add for PL.Is size an issue.? Great academics from what I read would be nicely competitve in most PL sports.

[NU Hound29]

Folks scoff at "absurd" since HC and Army are in "Atlantic Hockey" -- but then overlook that HC is now planning on becoming a scholarship hockey program (and Army, for all practical purposes, already is), RPI is a scholarship hockey program, and the big-time Ivy programs in effect are scholarship hockey programs.

You make it seem like my proposed conference would be a suck-fest - yet my proposed conference would comprise of 4 of the top 15 hockey programs in the country last year, and not a dud among them.

Look, I'm not saying this will happen this year. But clearly we're out of "don't be ridiculous' to 'most likely not.' That's a huge difference, and the potential exists 5-10 years down the road to make a hockey conference like that happen.

Would Duke leave the ACC? Would Providence leave the Big East? Why leave the best conference?

We were ALREADY in a conference with everyone in the ECAC and packed our bags and left with the rest of the quality hockey programs. Cornell is decent, fine, good enough. We left it for a reason. The "big-time" Ivy programs still struggle. There would be no reason.

If you can find me one single Hockey East fan that believe that this is a "most likely not" and not "don't be ridiculous" scenario I would be floored.

The Patriot League is more than welcome to start a hockey conference, but don't call NU.

[mainejeff]

Nope....there is going to be nothing for NU with URI and UMASS unless the re-emergence of the Yankee happens.

PATRIOT LEAGUE BOUND IS MORE LIKELY.

Agreed. This will be everyone's chance to reset their athletic programs and the way that things are looking, there might be openings in multiple leagues so that schools can "shop for the right fit". This will probably be the last time for a long time that conferences and schools will have the flexibility to make these changes......it's gonna be interesting to see how it shakes out.

[Dane96]

Know little about hockey, care less. great sport for those fans.

NU , I agree would be nice add for PL.Is size an issue.? Great academics from what I read would be nicely competitve in most PL sports.

Size is the only drawback from the PL extending an offer. However, I think the schools will look past it if they are serious about strengthening the league.

Real question is: How long will NU have a football program. A new stadium is an issue, in general.

[NU Hound29]

Size is the only drawback from the PL extending an offer. However, I think the schools will look past it if they are serious about strengthening the league.

Real question is: How long will NU have a football program. A new stadium is an issue, in general.

I feel like if we were going to cut football we would have already pulled the trigger, especially in this economy, great cover.

[Dane96]

There is more support than you think to disband that program. I dont think it is going anywhere soon...but i do believe with costs and the arms race in the CAA for stadiums...going to the PL might be the best thing for NU football's survival.

Many would like to see those $$$ for football spent on other sports, such as hoops and hockey.

[NU Hound29]

Many would like to see those $$$ for football spent on other sports, such as hoops and hockey.

Like me! xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

Why on God's green earth would NU leave Hockey East? Army and Holy Cross play limited-scholly hockey in Atlantic Hockey. HC was even recently snubbed by the ECAC in favor of Quinnipiac!
I will grant you the FU/PL deal gives both sides some time to sort things out. It was a mutually benificial compromise. But lets not start speculating that the PL is going to pass CAA football or ECAC Hockey as a conference destination anytime in the near future.

WRONG. HC would not make the commitments requested by the ECAC for membership.

[NU Hound29]

WRONG. HC would not make the commitments requested by the ECAC for membership.

Even better! Wouldn't make the commitment for the ECAC yet NU wants to leave Hockey East to play with them?

Crazy talk!

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Can any Fordham supporters shed any light on the sources of funding for football? I applaud the move but everyone else is pleading financial hardship. Why is Fordham not affected? Also are there any plans for the stadium?

I've touched on the Fordham issue before with some casual talk about what could happen with conference affiliation.

But the move sickens me as an A10 fan. Fordham SHOULD be using the money to make their basketball program good enough to be an A10 member. They are so bad, that they shouldn't even be in the league. They'd be at the bottom of the MAAC or NEC, yet they are in the top basketball conference outside of the BCS-6, yet they are one of the worst programs in the country.

My thoughts:
http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2009/06/fordham-football-adds-scholarships.html

[Go...gate]

I've touched on the Fordham issue before with some casual talk about what could happen with conference affiliation.

But the move sickens me as an A10 fan. Fordham SHOULD be using the money to make their basketball program good enough to be an A10 member. They are so bad, that they shouldn't even be in the league. They'd be at the bottom of the MAAC or NEC, yet they are in the top basketball conference outside of the BCS-6, yet they are one of the worst programs in the country.

My thoughts:
http://news.collegesportsinfo.com/2009/06/fordham-football-adds-scholarships.html

Which is why they never should have left the Patriot, especially since we are now scholarship in BB.

[Brad82]

Put Albany down as potential Yankee conference member.
Up & comer,short ride.

[TheValleyRaider]

I can't believe I missed the hockey discussion xoopsx

In short, as has been stated, an Army-HC-Colgate-NU-Ivies hockey conference is a non-starter for a number of reasons

1-Northeastern's desire to leave Hockey East is (or at least ought to be) virtually non-existant. Within the league they have high-profile rivalries with long-term national powers (BC, BU, to a lesser extent schools like UNH and Maine). The best benefit they could gleam from another affiliation would be the association with the Ivies and the like, but it would be only in a sport with very limited visibility

2-If you take Army, you must also take Air Force. By itself, it doesn't sound terrible, but given the current geography of the ECAC and Hockey East, the benefit for adding both military schools (in particular one approximately 2,000 miles away) is minimal. To say nothing of the fact that Army at one time was in the ECAC. The results were....not good

3-Conference reshuffling is not as easily accomplished in Hockey given that there are a total of 58 programs across the country. This new "Patriot Hockey" league would jettison historic rivals Clarkson and St. Lawrence, and that's assuming the Ivies/RPI would be interested in doing so. There becomes no place to put 2 top-notch programs, and worst-case scenario (never too far away in such a small sport) you lose 2 of the most successful programs in the nation

4-I'll defend the ECAC as far as I can, but no way, no how does this proposed conference improve national standing. If anything, you've replaced Clarkson/SLU with Army/HC and that's a downgrade no matter how you slice it

5-Where was the desire for scholarship hockey at the Cross 5 years ago when they were the clear frontrunners for the ECAC's open spot? Don't get me wrong, I like Quinnipiac, but I would have loved HC. They threw it away

The long and short of it is that Hockey in this instance in a non-starter. It is somewhat like Lacrosse in that it's a sport limited by its small membership. The various differences between the sports (scheduling, conferences vs. independents, length of season) make for different challenges, but there's also the question of alignment. Lacrosse is big at schools you've heard of. Hockey is big at schools you haven't heard of, and the historical growth of certain programs and rivalries is not overturned as easily as it is in sports with larger bases to work with like Football. Certainly, the hockey world is about to undergo some interesting changes and realignments of its own, but those will likely have very little to do with the larger visions of many athletic programs xtwocentsx

[NU Hound29]

Thanks for backing me up ValleyRaider

NU has zero interest in leaving Hockey East, trust me. I have a feeling the Ivies and RPI would also have zero interest in leaving the ECAC.

Watching the reshuffling in the west should be interesting but I don't think it will effect the eastern teams all that much

[TheValleyRaider]

My guess is that you'll see:

-Bemidji and NMU to the WCHA

-UAH to the CCHA

-Niagara and RMU to Atlantic Hockey, with Niagara now being able to keep scholarships because Holy Cross will have them

[aceinthehole]

I can't believe I missed the hockey discussion xoopsx

In short, as has been stated, an Army-HC-Colgate-NU-Ivies hockey conference is a non-starter for a number of reasons

1-Northeastern's desire to leave Hockey East is (or at least ought to be) virtually non-existant. Within the league they have high-profile rivalries with long-term national powers (BC, BU, to a lesser extent schools like UNH and Maine). The best benefit they could gleam from another affiliation would be the association with the Ivies and the like, but it would be only in a sport with very limited visibility

5-Where was the desire for scholarship hockey at the Cross 5 years ago when they were the clear frontrunners for the ECAC's open spot? Don't get me wrong, I like Quinnipiac, but I would have loved HC. They threw it away

The long and short of it is that Hockey in this instance in a non-starter.

These are just some of the reasons why LFN's off-the-cuff day dreaming was outlandish and absurd to begin with.

Yes, thanks Valley and Hound for putting some REALITY into this discussion. xthumbsupx

[Fordham]

...But the move sickens me as an A10 fan. Fordham SHOULD be using the money to make their basketball program good enough to be an A10 member.

what money?

[TheValleyRaider]

These are just some of the reasons why LFN's off-the-cuff day dreaming was outlandish and absurd to begin with.

Yes, thanks Valley and Hound for putting some REALITY into this discussion. xthumbsupx

I hate to rip too much on LFN. If nothing else, he's a great source of info on PL workings, and at the very least is fodder for good discussion

As far as the Hockey part goes, he's quite a bit off, I think. As far as the rest of it, well, I don't know enough to say that he's completely crazy xpeacex

Also, point #5, the Holy Cross stuff, was more a question directed at Worcester. I've heard the scholarship stuff recently as well, and don't disbelieve that there's some truth to it. If that is the case, it also suggests the Cross might not be fully opposed to the introduction of scholarships into certain other sports. If nothing else, it just mildly disappoints me that only now are they willing to make these moves when, had this come 5 years earlier (or at least rumblings thereof), they could very well be full ECAC members right now. Coulda, woulda, shoulda...

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

IIRC, wasn't HC's refusal to upgrade their women's ice hockey program also a major factor in the ECAC choosing Q-Pac over the Cross?

Don't forget that Atlantic Hockey is not full scholarship hockey. Doesn't that league have an 11 scholarship max while the "power" conferences offer the maximum 18? Army and HC giving 11 scholarships won't attract Northeastern. Of course, if America East ever managed to take over Hockey East then maybe Northeastern would have a problem with one of their sports falling under the AE banner. ;) ;) ;) ;) :D xrotatehx xrotatehx :p :p :p :p :p

[TheValleyRaider]

IIRC, wasn't HC's refusal to upgrade their women's ice hockey program also a major factor in the ECAC choosing Q-Pac over the Cross?

As far as I'm aware, that was the deciding factor. The ECAC said make your Women's program D-I (they were D-III at the time) and you're in, Cross said nope, and the ECAC adds Quinnipiac instead

[crusader11]

They also wanted us to expand our rink and we refused to do so--typical Holy Cross if you ask me.

[NU Hound29]

My guess is that you'll see:

-Bemidji and NMU to the WCHA

-UAH to the CCHA

-Niagara and RMU to Atlantic Hockey, with Niagara now being able to keep scholarships because Holy Cross will have them

Well Niagara and RMU are a definite and I am tempted to agree with you about BSU and NMU but I just have a sneaking suspicion NMU knows the ball is in their court and can drag the other two around as much as they want.

BSU making the Frozen Four made their life light years easier...


They also wanted us to expand our rink and we refused to do so--typical Holy Cross if you ask me.

I am no surprised that was a factor, especially since QU just built that gorgeous new facility!

[CrusaderBob]

They also wanted us to expand our rink and we refused to do so--typical Holy Cross if you ask me.

By expand the rink, you mean add seating. The work around at the time was the HC was willing to rent the DCU Center (the Ice Cats had just left town and the Sharks were not even close to the drawing board) for high attendance games until they were ready and able to execute on a plan to upgrade the Hart Center.

Another issue - and according to some of primary importance - was for HC to speed the transition of women's hockey from D-III to D-I. ECAC wanted it immediately. HC wanted a couple of years as they had planned

The bottom line was that HC's timeline did not meet the ECAC's time line for the changes and upgrades.

Maybe it made sense in 2004, but in 2009 hindsight it seems to me that both HC & the ECAC were making too much out of a year or two delay/acceleration of schedule.

But let's get back to FB scholarships ...

[Husky Alum]

Of course, if America East ever managed to take over Hockey East then maybe Northeastern would have a problem with one of their sports falling under the AE banner. ;) ;) ;) ;) :D xrotatehx xrotatehx :p :p :p :p :p

America East Hockey is being held up by one school, and one school only, and that school is a current AE member, oh, and the Defending National Hockey Champions.

As long as they say "nyet", BC says "nyet", NU says "nyet", etc.

BU doesn't want AE hockey, so it's not going to happen. Period. BU doesn't want to play hockey in a conference it doesn't want to be a member of in the first place. As long as BU says no, there's an "agreement" between the other Boston schools to vote "no" as well. and the Lowells and Merrimacks of the world need BU for cache, so they won't vote against the removal of the Hockey East banner.

I wouldn't say we're firmly entrenched in HEA, as Hound wants everyone to believe.

There was thought that we could jump to the ECAC a while back when we sucked. Before QPac was added, overtures were made to NU and we did think about it.

I don't think the PL would get the words "do you want to be a member" out of their mouths fast enough for NU to accept.

[crusader11]

The bottom line was that HC's timeline did not meet the ECAC's time line for the changes and upgrades.



I see what you mean, but with the opportunity to join a better league, with better schools (who are our peers...I would not consider Mercyhurst, AIC, Bentley, etc. to be our peers), HC should have simply nodded their head at the ECAC officials and made it work.

And, yes, I meant renovate the rink by adding extra seating.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wouldn't Army, Colgate, Holy Cross and Northeastern be an intriguing base for a Patriot League hockey league??? Add in the five hockey-playing Ivy League members (Dartmouth, Brown, Harvard, Yale, Cornell) and a 10th team (RPI)?

xeyebrowx


America East Hockey is being held up by one school, and one school only, and that school is a current AE member, oh, and the Defending National Hockey Champions.

...

I wouldn't say we're firmly entrenched in HEA, as Hound wants everyone to believe.

...

I don't think the PL would get the words "do you want to be a member" out of their mouths fast enough for NU to accept.


I see what you mean, but with the opportunity to join a better league, with better schools (who are our peers...I would not consider Mercyhurst, AIC, Bentley, etc. to be our peers), HC should have simply nodded their head at the ECAC officials and made it work.

Okay, so we've now determined that chest-thumping aside, the idea to start PL hockey - while still quite a ways away from actually forming - is at least reasonably in alignment with 1) the goals of the PL, 2) the desired goals of Northeastern, and 3) Holy Cross (with some independent voices at least confirming that it's not crazy talk). Also, Patriot League hockey would comprise for of Hockey's Top 15 programs, and the Ivy League's historic ties with the PL make it more of a possibility.

I find it hilarious that folks on here seriously talk about sponsoring *America East* hockey, while dismissing the notion of Patriot League hockey as outlandish. Who knows, maybe AE football will also happen and nab Fordham, too! xlolx

Fact is non-conference-type organizations (such as ECAC hockey) are slowly dying out in other sports. Ask anyone still in ECAC Lacrosse with their cross-country conference road trips. While I admit that ECAC Hockey is still truly regional at its core, the overall trend is to gravitate towards conferences sponsoring more (money-making) sports, not less - and it gives those schools an edge at the bargaining table for at-large spots, etc.

[Husky Alum]

America East hockey would be nothing different than Yankee/A-10 football becoming the CAA.

America East Hockey would have the same teams, different wrapper. Pat "Don't Call Me Emperor, I'm not fiddling while the AE is Burning" Nero was hired because he told the AE schools that he'd get football and hockey under the AE Banner.

Now, no one in HEA really cares what the league is called, except for Boston University. They don't want to be in "America East Hockey" because they don't see themselves as a long term player in America East, and to commit to America East Hockey only to want out of the rest of the conference, doesn't make sense to them.

NU, BC, Providence and UMass Amherst apparently don't care what the league is called, as long as BU is in it. UNH, Maine and Vermont, while members of the AE, don't have enough votes to push it through. Lowell and Merrimack will do what they're told by BU and BC.

So, America East Hockey won't happen any time soon. It's actually not preposterous, it's just that BU is being self serving.

NU's not leaving Hockey East, please don't misinterpret what I said - but those who say "NU would NEVER leave HEA" don't have all of the facts.

When NU hockey was in the shytter (5-7 years ago), there were some folks associated with the program who thought that we couldn't compete (facilities and other costs) with BU, BC, Maine, and UNH in the HEA on a consistent basis, and that our cost structure and facilities would be better suited for the ECAC.

However, once we got rid of Bruce Crowder, hired Greg Cronin, and decided to make some financial investments in hockey and Matthews Arena (it's being partially gutted as we speak), we've had success on the ice and at the gate, and people realize that HEA is where we're going to be for a while.

[NU Hound29]

But there is not one....not one college hockey conference that is not a hockey only conference. While they may be withering out in other sports, hockey seems to be immune to this disease.

This will pain many in the west but a Big 10 hockey conference will come sooner than Patriot League or America East. The Big 10 has five schools that sponsor hockey but they are currently in two different conferences...

These are your hockey conferences:

WCHA
CCHA
Hockey East
ECAC (technically its the ECACHL, it has no formal connection to the ECAC)
Atlantic Hockey
CHA (which is disbanding anyway)

NU will never leave BC or BU, if you can drag them into this fantasy conference then maybe, but I doubt it.

I think you are missing the point, could it get done? Sure...of course it could, but why would NU have any interest in leaving Hockey East?

I respectfully disagree with Husky Alum that we are not firmly entrenched in HEA. Maybe 5 to 10 years ago we were not a firmly entrenched (EDIT: Husky Alum just confirmed what I was saying, yes 5-10 years ago it was on the table for sure) but I think as it stands today and with the arena renovations going on now NU will not take a step down.

The ECAC (and therefore the teams in it) have not won a national championship since 1989, during that time Hockey East has won six including the last two. The ECAC has not even had a team in the championship game since 1990 (Colgate), I believe Cornell was the last Frozen Four team in 2002...

Its not an argument of could it get done, its a why would it get done?

I agree that the PL would be a nice destination for other sports, but there would be zero reason to leave Hockey East...

[Dane96]

Disagreeing with the insight of Husky Alum on the state of NU programs is a fool's errand.

Trust his knowledge.

[Husky Alum]

Dane, you back from Deutscheland?

Hound may have a bit more insight on NU hockey than I do, that's a given.

[NU Hound29]

Dane, you back from Deutscheland?

Hound may have a bit more insight on NU hockey than I do, that's a given.

When it comes to football I bow to the all mighty Husky Alum though...xthumbsupx

[Dane96]

I was just toying with the both of you!

Yah...I am back from the land of SPEIGEL!

Going rafting this weekend...but let's try to grab drinks the week after, or more likely than not, in two weeks.

You going to the games tues, wed, thurs?

[greenG]

Well Niagara and RMU are a definite and I am tempted to agree with you about BSU and NMU but I just have a sneaking suspicion NMU knows the ball is in their court and can drag the other two around as much as they want.


NMU announced last month that they wouldn't be moving (back) to the WCHA.

http://www.dailypress.net/page/content.detail/id/512141.html

[NU Hound29]

NMU announced last month that they wouldn't be moving (back) to the WCHA.

http://www.dailypress.net/page/content.detail/id/512141.html

Well there ya go.

UAH would be such a weird fit for the WCHA...if that even happens

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Which is why they never should have left the Patriot, especially since we are now scholarship in BB.

Agreed. They were a fit in the Pat, not the A10.

[TheValleyRaider]

Hound is quite right in his discussion of Hockey conferences. Lacrosse is a bad reference point because many of the schools with Lacrosse have pre-existing conference affiliations with one another. If you look at a list of Hockey schools, those affiliations are exceedingly sparse, and made more complex by the large number of D-II and D-III schools within them


This will pain many in the west but a Big 10 hockey conference will come sooner than Patriot League or America East. The Big 10 has five schools that sponsor hockey but they are currently in two different conferences...

Ahhhhh! Big 10 Hockey!!! Eyes bleeding!!!! Mass hysteria!!! Loud noises!

http://www.wingstaiwan.com/avatars/oh_noes.gif


The ECAC (and therefore the teams in it) have not won a national championship since 1989, during that time Hockey East has won six including the last two. The ECAC has not even had a team in the championship game since 1990 (Colgate), I believe Cornell was the last Frozen Four team in 2002...

It was 2003, actually xreadx :o xsmhx xoopsx

[NU Hound29]

02, 03, I was close :p

Here is something fun a list of conference with at least one NCAA hockey team (some have more)

Atlantic Coast Conference
Atlantic 10
America East
Big East
Big Ten
Colonial Athletic Association
Empire Eight (D-III)
Great Lakes Intercollegiate (D-II)
Great Northwest (D-II)
Great West
Gulf South (D-II)
Metro Atlantic Athletic Association
Mid-American Conference
Mid-America Intercollegiate Athletic Association (D-II)
Mountain West
Northeast Conference
Northeast Ten (D-II)
Northern Sun (D-II)
Patriot League
Pennsylvania State Athletic Conference (D-II)
Southern Collegiate Athletic Conference (D-III)
Sun Belt

22 conferences for 58 teams