LFN: Fordham, and the Patriot League, Punts [Archive]

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 5th, 2009, 01:10 PM

An even stranger scenario: Half the PL decides to follow Fordham, half do not. Does this mean that only three schools would be eligible for the autobid and the others would not?

This could go two ways, of course. If Fordham 2010 starts beating its PL opponents 65-0 every week, that could cause some grief. But what if Fordham stays in that 4-7, 5-6 mode? Does that make scholarships more acceptable, or less?

If the PL instututes schollies basically nothing will change within in the league. The pecking order should still remain the same all things being equal. Fordham has had some good seasons here and there the last 10 years but they're still #5 in the league behind Lehigh, Colgate, Lafayette and Holy Cross in terms of success and facilities.

RichH2

June 5th, 2009, 01:11 PM

If PL finds a "suitable" all sport school that goes with non merit aid football, my bet is PL will go that way and say bye to FU.

I do not see that happening as there are no schools that fit that bill.

Real issue I believe is split between schools that will go schollie,ie LU ,gate,etc and those that cant or wont at present. Gives them another year to come upwith a plan and hope like hell their endowments improve.

Clearly this compromise cannot last more than next season or 2010 at most. After it will be like playing Nova every year,in the middle of PL schedule.

Syntax Error

June 5th, 2009, 01:14 PM

Lehigh Football Nation

June 5th, 2009, 01:20 PM

An even stranger scenario: Half the PL decides to follow Fordham, half do not. Does this mean that only three schools would be eligible for the autobid and the others would not?

This could go two ways, of course. If Fordham 2010 starts beating its PL opponents 65-0 every week, that could cause some grief. But what if Fordham stays in that 4-7, 5-6 mode? Does that make scholarships more acceptable, or less?

Like SE said, it's a good point. However, my instincts tell me that it's not going to come to this: that some decision is going to be made (probably by the end of the 2009 season) one way or another. I don't think this will linger into the 2010 season and give teams a chance to compare or choose "Fordham limbo".

Strictly speaking I'd say that if that thermonuclear scenario happened there would be no autobid since there would be only three remaining teams eligible for the autobid. Matter of fact, if only one school decided to join Fordham I'd guess that the PL would lose their autobid.

DFW HOYA

June 5th, 2009, 01:20 PM

Real issue I believe is split between schools that will go schollie,ie LU ,gate,etc and those that cant or wont at present. Gives them another year to come upwith a plan and hope like hell their endowments improve. Clearly this compromise cannot last more than next season or 2010 at most.

This is a huge problem for the league. if Colgate and Lehigh go one way (and, by default, Lafayette follows), either the league accomodates them at the expense of the other three, or they get up, find a new home, and the entire PL implodes. And what of the others? Without them, the autobid disappears.

Matter of fact, if only one school decided to join Fordham I'd guess that the PL would lose their autobid.

So what prevents another school from making the same move this fall?

RichH2

June 5th, 2009, 01:26 PM

Gate, LC and LU will keep together either way I think Bucknell also, altho I thoght Gettysburg would stay with the Middle 5 back in my day. GU and HC ???????

Lehigh Football Nation

June 5th, 2009, 01:29 PM

This is a huge problem for the league. if Colgate and Lehigh go one way (and, by default, Lafayette follows), either the league accomodates them at the expense of the other three, or they get up, find a new home, and the entire PL implodes. And what of the others? Without them, the autobid disappears.

You beat me to the punch. There are strange dynamics at play here, and you've put them well into words. Trouble is nobody knows where anyone stands, really - even Lehigh (who has never been totally outspoken for scholarships) Colgate (who is looking for a new prexy) and Georgetown (who is looking for a new AD).

What we do know is that Fordham really, really wants to stay in the Patriot League. They could have cut the cord completely in 2010 and chose not to. To me, more than anything else that speaks volumes.

Ken_Z

June 5th, 2009, 01:31 PM

i think this moves the ratification issue from the traditional PL we need unanimous concensus to change (at least of full members), to a position of majority rules and one school will no longer hold us hostage. in fact as some speculate it may open the door for one additional pro scholly school to force the issue by saying they are moving forward and league is SOL re AQ unless the league drops the scholarship disqualifier for league championship.

Lehigh Football Nation

June 5th, 2009, 01:31 PM

So what prevents another school from making the same move this fall?

Nothing - but then again, which school is really, really ready to make the jump? Certainly not Lehigh and Lafayette, and I can't imagine Colgate doing it in their current situation either.

Lehigh Football Nation

June 5th, 2009, 01:35 PM

...in fact as some speculate it may open the door for one additional pro scholly school to force the issue by saying they are moving forward and league is SOL re AQ unless the league drops the scholarship disqualifier for league championship.

I agree. I think you'd feel the tide if (say) William & Mary's president said publicly that they were "exploring other conference options" but were "concerned about maintaining football excellence" or something like that. The pressure the PL would be feeling would be almost unbearable if that happens.

RichH2

June 5th, 2009, 01:43 PM

Lehighsports.com has statements by Sterrett and Coen.

Coen plainly pro merit aid and Joe with the appropriate academic "squeaky speak" noting the overall beneficial effect of schollies and implying expansion to football.

LU support for merit aid no surprise but good to see us line up on the right side of this issue

Ken_Z

June 5th, 2009, 01:47 PM

aceinthehole

June 5th, 2009, 02:07 PM

What we do know is that Fordham really, really wants to stay in the Patriot League. They could have cut the cord completely in 2010 and chose not to. To me, more than anything else that speaks volumes.

I disagree with your conclusion. What I read into this compromise, is that Fordham really values playing PL member schools and wants to maintain a formal agreement that will guarantee them a 6-game "Indy" schedule for 2010-12.

I'll ask the question stratightforwardly: How can you really call FU an "associate member" when theyt can't win the AQ, don't count as league games, and will not be eligible for PL awards?

After this year, if things go as describbed in the press release, how can anyone call this 'solution' anything more than a scheduling agreemnet?

Lehigh Football Nation

June 5th, 2009, 02:07 PM

Holy cow! I added the statements from Sterrett and Coen (as well as Masella's, McLaughlin's and Fr McShane's) reactions in the blog postings.

Let's not sugarcoat this: this is the first time Lehigh has EVER come out PUBLICLY in favor of football scholarships. I don't know if it's a game changer or not, but there's no question this is real big.

Ken_Z

June 5th, 2009, 02:38 PM

I disagree with your conclusion. What I read into this compromise, is that Fordham really values playing PL member schools and wants to maintain a formal agreement that will guarantee them a 6-game "Indy" schedule for 2010-12.

I'll ask the question stratightforwardly: How can you really call FU an "associate member" when theyt can't win the AQ, don't count as league games, and will not be eligible for PL awards?

After this year, if things go as describbed in the press release, how can anyone call this 'solution' anything more than a scheduling agreemnet?

ace, i don't thinkanyone outside of the school and league reps care whether it is called affiliate membership or a scheduling agreement. the fact is that the PL and Fordham have agreed to these terms and Fordham is not formally withdrawing from the league. that is all that matters for today. next the scholarship issue needs to be resolved, that will determine either Fordhams continued long-term membership or else when and how this scheduling agreement ends.

if it truly offends you to call them an affiliate member don't.

Fordham

June 5th, 2009, 02:39 PM

What we do know is that Fordham really, really wants to stay in the Patriot League. They could have cut the cord completely in 2010 and chose not to. To me, more than anything else that speaks volumes.

Again, from a Fordham perspective this is fantastic. The alternative to this was basically going scholarship but as an independent. Either way we only qualify as an at-large, if at all. Under this scenario we have our schedule filled in, move to scholarships and start playing some pay games. Of course that's a better alternative but I don't know if I'd agree that it 'speaks volumes'.

In another year or two we will know if we prodded the PL to go scholarship along with us or if we simply found ourselves the bridge we needed to get to a new conference. It really buys us quite a bit of time to do that (if option 1 of the whole league going scholarship doesn't take place).

Great, great day in our program's history.

RichH2

June 5th, 2009, 03:02 PM

LFN,

Agreed!! LU has been quietly in favor of modifying football aid .These statements are the first definitive public support by the administration for merit aid in football.Heretofor, only the coaches were permitted to come out in favor of such aid. I hope other schools at least respond to PL announcement

CrusaderBob

June 5th, 2009, 03:07 PM

I agree with Fordham. It's a bridge not only for Fordham but the PL.

Say a scholarship decision is made at December 2010 Council of President's meeting, the PL and Fordham then have another 2 years to chart their future from there, rather than going independent and playing with just 6 teams - or fewer should other decide to do as Fordham and offer scholarships.

RichH2

June 5th, 2009, 03:22 PM

Grollier, in the CALL, opined that PL has taken the 1st step towards merit aid.

I agree and hope we are correct.

Downside ,in one way, is that membership in PL will almost certainly change by 2012

RichH2

June 5th, 2009, 03:31 PM

Question, PL and members have 2 yrs to prepare and for PL to line up replacements for those who wont or cant switch to merit aid.

2012 Who is in the PL? Is there aPL at all?

Lehigh Football Nation

June 5th, 2009, 03:46 PM

Question, PL and members have 2 yrs to prepare and for PL to line up replacements for those who wont or cant switch to merit aid.

2012 Who is in the PL? Is there aPL at all?

Rich, please! Stop poaching all my ideas for blog postings! :D

RichH2

June 5th, 2009, 04:02 PM

OOPS!! As I was posting, these qs kept coming up. Went around the boards,lots of uncertainty particularly on Cross. You're much more eloquent than I so I await your insights

TheValleyRaider

June 5th, 2009, 04:09 PM

Glad to see PL talk all over the FCS forum again :D

My instinct remains the same, that the eventual solution here will be the institution of optional scholarships, much in the same way they were introduced in every other sport.

It may be parsing, but a couple of statements stuck out to me in the release:

"There is strong desire both on the part of Fordham and the Patriot League to continue our long-standing relationship," said Bucknell President Brian C. Mitchell, the Chair of the Patriot League Council of Presidents. "The interim arrangement we have agreed to will allow Fordham to begin to award scholarships in football while affording the League time to address merit aid for football and broader issues related to membership expansion. This issue comes at a very difficult financial time on all of our campuses."

The optimist in me reads this as saying that the issue is in fact being seriously discussed, which if nothing else could be seen as the result of Fordham pushing the issue to the center of the table. If so, good for them

The Patriot League Council of Presidents will continue to discuss the competitive and financial implications of athletic merit aid for the League football membership as well as the long-term goals of the League. It is anticipated that a decision will be made no later than the end of 2010.

Any date is better than no date. Whether they keep to it is, of course, up for more discussion, depending on your optimism and/or level of trust in the PL's leadership

Patriot League members are permitted to offer scholarships in the League's other 22 sports.

The final sentence in the release. Here's where I start reading way too much into things, but bear me out here. There are 11 sentences in the whole statement. Clearly it was worded very carefully (indeed it was written by people whose job it is to write things very carefully). Unless this was a last-minute addition by a League PR guy who slipped it in unnoticed, then the Council made a conscious decision to note that the PL is not averse to scholarships on the whole. They did not have to mention that, but they did. What does it mean? I'm not sure, but somewhere along the line, they thought it was worth mentioning

LUHawker

June 5th, 2009, 04:36 PM

The fact that Lehigh came out with an official statement with explicit support for scholarships in football from Andy Coen and implied support for football scholarships from AD Joe Sterrett speaks volumes to me.

As a Lehigh guy, I am thrilled to finally know where Lehigh stands on this topic and that maybe, just maybe, Lehigh will have schollies soon.

More broadly, Lehigh's comments would now seem to put 3 PL schools squarely in favor of schollies: Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh. Also there is no way that Lafayette, after having spent $30MM on facilities upgrades and resurrecting its program from the depths that it will then not follow with schollies if FU, LU and CU move ahead with them. Therefore I count 4 yea's at this point.

I believe that this compromise is simply a temporary measure to allow the other PL schools, not named Fordham, to adjust their plans and we'll see schollies throughout for the 2011 season if not 2010.

This temporary solution leaves a lot of options open, even if it doesn't decide anything today.

TheValleyRaider

June 5th, 2009, 04:41 PM

More broadly, Lehigh's comments would now seem to put 3 PL schools squarely in favor of schollies: Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh.

Not so fast, unfortunately. The uncertain economics combined with our current lack of a President makes Colgate's position on the matter far from certain. I'd like to think that the next President will be a supporter as Chopp appears to have been, but until the search is complete and a hiring announced, we cannot be fully certain xtwocentsx

DFW HOYA

June 5th, 2009, 05:13 PM

More broadly, Lehigh's comments would now seem to put 3 PL schools squarely in favor of schollies: Fordham, Colgate and Lehigh. Also there is no way that Lafayette, after having spent $30MM on facilities upgrades and resurrecting its program from the depths that it will then not follow with schollies if FU, LU and CU move ahead with them. Therefore I count 4 yea's at this point.

Doesn't sound as promising for initials BU, HC, and GU....

Lehigh74

June 5th, 2009, 05:19 PM

If LU, LC and CU all agree to go ahead with scholarships, I can't believe BU wouldn't go along with them. As has been said many times, on this board, those 4 schools are joined at the hip.

CFBfan

June 5th, 2009, 05:19 PM

Doesn't sound as promising for initials BU, HC, and GU....

If merit scholl's are funded by redirecting dollars from finacial aid scholl's what am I missing here?? why wouldn't BU, HC and GU follow suit?
It seems that the PL is open to this....otherwise I would think that they would not have allowed FU to remain in the league??

kardplayer

June 5th, 2009, 05:36 PM

...

I'll ask the question stratightforwardly: How can you really call FU an "associate member" when theyt can't win the AQ, don't count as league games, and will not be eligible for PL awards?

After this year, if things go as describbed in the press release, how can anyone call this 'solution' anything more than a scheduling agreemnet?

I'm wondering if this makes sure that Fordham still counts as a PL member in terms of a future autobid. If memory serves correctly, a certain number of schools needs to have been playing together as a conference for a certain number of years in order to maintain the AQ.

Flash forward a few years, and assume that the PL goes to schollys and one of the "no's" says they will drop out of the league. If Fordham was moved out for now, they wouldn't count towards the AQ.

This would seem to give the schools that want to offer scholarships some additional leverage against those who do not.

Fordham

June 5th, 2009, 06:45 PM

kard, great question on the auto-bid. We don't count towards the standings, we don't count towards the PL title and we don't count towards post-season awards ... so, can we still count as a member of the conference to ensure the auto-bid or did the PL just go from 7 to the minimum-qualification-number of 6?

colorless raider

June 5th, 2009, 08:31 PM

If LU, LC and CU all agree to go ahead with scholarships, I can't believe BU wouldn't go along with them. As has been said many times, on this board, those 4 schools are joined at the hip.

mu guess: Say goodbye to HC and G'town. Too bad, but hopefully we get some high quality replacements. Gilmore gone after this year, take it to the bank.

Seawolf97

June 5th, 2009, 09:43 PM

Again, from a Fordham perspective this is fantastic. The alternative to this was basically going scholarship but as an independent. Either way we only qualify as an at-large, if at all. Under this scenario we have our schedule filled in, move to scholarships and start playing some pay games. Of course that's a better alternative but I don't know if I'd agree that it 'speaks volumes'.

In another year or two we will know if we prodded the PL to go scholarship along with us or if we simply found ourselves the bridge we needed to get to a new conference. It really buys us quite a bit of time to do that (if option 1 of the whole league going scholarship doesn't take place).

Great, great day in our program's history.

Couldnt agree more. Going Indy really has drawbacks but now you can schedule CAA, Soconn and Big South teams and be competitive along with an FBS team every year. I think this is more of a win for Fordham and if you do well you can always get an at large bid.

ngineer

June 5th, 2009, 10:35 PM

I see the statement from the BU president as promising...saying that the league will 'address' merit aid. To me it says that the PL will be instituting some form of merit aid by end of 2010, and if GU and HC are in no mood, perhaps William & Mary, Richmond and/or Villanova come in with scholarships in place. CAA will be undergoing some major change in the next year or so.

JoltinJoe

June 6th, 2009, 08:18 AM

mu guess: Say goodbye to HC and G'town. Too bad, but hopefully we get some high quality replacements. Gilmore gone after this year, take it to the bank.

Where would HC or Georgetown go for football? Ultimately, I see the PL allowing teams to offer football scholarships on the terms and conditions as each individual school sees fit, and eventually each school will gravitate, on its own pace, to the scholarship model.

There is a huge demand for scholarship football among the HC alumni I know. When I was in law school, I spent a weekend with some HC grads at one of its games back when it was one of the best I-AA programs in the nation. The atmosphere was amazing. A few years back, I went to Fordham game at HC and that atmosphere was gone. I can't understand why HC threw that all away. Doesn't the festival atmosphere on Saturday help to bring back alumni -- checkbook in the back pocket -- on a far-more-frequent basis?

I wonder if there is really any cost savings adhering to a financial-aid-only model, and it wasn't as if scholarship football was imperiling the academic reputation of HC. It was and remains one of the best national liberal arts colleges out there.

IMO, it never made any sense for HC to go to the Ivy model.

As for Georgetown, it should read the tea leaves ... I can't understand why a school that desires to excel in (nearly) all of its endeavors -- athletics and academics -- accepts such a poor performance from its football program.

Go...gate

June 6th, 2009, 08:00 PM

DFW HOYA

June 6th, 2009, 09:25 PM

Where would HC or Georgetown go for football? Ultimately, I see the PL allowing teams to offer football scholarships on the terms and conditions as each individual school sees fit, and eventually each school will gravitate, on its own pace, to the scholarship model.

HC may not have a choice--the PL bylaws may mandate its schools to play I-AA football within its auspices.

As for Georgetown, it should read the tea leaves ... I can't understand why a school that desires to excel in (nearly) all of its endeavors -- athletics and academics -- accepts such a poor performance from its football program.

After nearly 10 years in the PL world, it's surprising that fans of other schools still don't get it when it comes to Georgetown and football. No one sits up in Washington and aspires to finish in last place every year. No one sits through the annual kickings by Lehigh and HC and is happy about it. No one is spending $1.5 million a year to do poorly. If it had no interest whatosever in competing it could have stayed in the MAAC at $250K a year and gone down with the ship.

Georgetown has three very good things going for it: an academic experience as good as any Division I school in the nation, an extraordinary location for learning, and a 122 year football tradition that can hold its own with the best of them at the I-AA level. (The parallels to the Fordham football tradition are very close.)

And all that aside, Georgetown has three very difficult things going against it too--an extremely narrow window for admissions, insufficient financial aid to overcome any generous offers from competing schools, and an aging physical plant that does not provide any of the neccessities of the modern college football experience. No location outside of Parsons Field has less.

Today's kids have no memory of the days when Georgetown was 8-3 or 9-2, when it beat Holy Cross by two touchdowns (in Worcester) and was thumping MAAC teams by three and four touchdowns every week. All they see now is a one-dimensional offense that struggles to 100 yards a game on the ground, and an an 0-fer in what is increasingly perceived as a weak I-AA conference.

So what would you do? Get more revenues? OK, except that it's playing in the smallest sradium in Division I. Recruit better players? OK, except that they'd better get used to lots of loans to go there. No toleration for losing? OK, but expect a revolving door among the coaching staff.

If this was some easy answer, then Georgetown could go in that direction. It was an easy answer to jump off the S.S. MAAC while it was still afloat. Fixing the mess within the PL framework is not so easy and I think Fordham's preemptive move gives it the opportunity to start looking beyond the PL for a new home. Even if the PL adopted scholarships, Fordham might be at a competitive level where they think they don't need the PL anymore and could be seen as a target for a larger league as Towson was. Lehigh or Colgate couldn't just get up and leave, but Fordham could.

But back to Georgetown. It could get up and leave too, but to nowhere in particular. It's a generalization to say Georgetown wants to be Yale on the weekdays and Notre Dame on the weekend, but it's still one of only two schools that play I-AA football within the greater confines of a BCS-level major conference. Commitments and expectations for football are different as a result and that's a challenge to work through.

But while Fordham has access to spend I-A money on a I-AA program, that's money Georgetown simply does not have. If it did, this would be a completely different conversation.

RichH2

June 6th, 2009, 10:00 PM

Sad but true story. Good coaches will be hard to come by with all the issues. BUT, you will have to luck into one to build that program to some kind of success to prime the pump for $$$$$

Wildcat80

June 7th, 2009, 06:48 AM

DFW--as in everything it comes down to leadership. As an outsider I see no reason a Div 1 basketball school cannot/should not be a successful FCS football school. Does the President want it? The AD? The alums? Is the right Head Coach in place? The solution to the high tuition is quite simply football scholarships. Few middle class players would turn down a Georgetown schollie to pay full cost at an Ivy. It can be done. Do you want to get it done?

JoltinJoe

June 7th, 2009, 10:23 AM

No one is spending $1.5 million a year to do poorly.

This is the problem. Period. Georgetown spends about half, or less than half, than what the rest of the conference spends on football.

What's not "to get?"

The rest of the matters you cite are issues, maybe, but this is the problem.

carney2

June 7th, 2009, 02:20 PM

2012 Who is in the PL? Is there aPL at all?

Now there's the real question in all of this. The crystal ball is muddled, but it looks like:

The PL will not be out if its economic crisis by 2010, and the League fathers (and mothers) in their foot dragging inability to get proactive and control their own destiny will grant Fordham another year of League eligibility, thereby moving the decision forward yet another year. Lucky for one and all, about one more year is all they have before something has to be done.

In the end, the League loses at least one school. Fordham and Georgetown are an either/or. There is no "and" in this equation. Fordham is gone if the decision is "no" on scholarships. Georgetown bails if it goes the other way. Holy Cross is a wild card. Football has become the forgotten and downtrodden stepchild in Wootown, with hoops and ice hockey grabbing all the affection and loot. The post-Randolph era appears grim. Cash crops at Fitton?

The only way to proceed and "save" the Patriot League is with scholarships. Without scholarships, the only likely candidates for membership are bad fits - schools like Marist and Sacred Heart. With scholarships, the list improves dramatically - led by Villanova. Of course, all sports members may be difficult to find in this latter group, so the League may have to go other directions for sports that use round balls. (Face it, the Patriot League is a football conference. The rest is just icing on the pigskin cake. I wouldn't be surprised to see football and basketball going in different directions - and neither giving so much as a glance in the rear view mirror for the other, lesser, sports.)

If the League says "no" to scholarships and goodbye to Fordham, it is not clear that they have a workable solution. They become non-competitive with everyone - and I mean everyone. Georgetown and Holy Cross will still be in the position of giving lip service only to their football programs, and the Siamese quadruplets (Bucknell, Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh) will begin to unravel. These four are, and should rightfully be, joined at the hip. Best guess is that Colgate will unthinkably shoot itself in the foot and leave the only home they've ever had - or ever could have - to pursue dreams of athletic...what?!

The FCS world has been watching the CAA, waiting for it to implode and explode simultaneously. The best bet for a cataclysm in the next five years - and the most fun for football observers - is the Patriot League. It's going to be a really rocky ride.

blukeys

June 7th, 2009, 02:42 PM

Sorry to be late to this discussion and I don't have an interest in this other than as a FCS fan but I do not see this as a "compromise" unless one compromises with a gun to your head. The PL bought some time. That much is true but Fordham came away with all of the presents under the tree. Fordham gives up nothing while still having PL membership now and an almost complete FCS schedule in the future. Here is my post from another thread.

"WOW Fordham just took the PL behind the woodshed and paddled their respective fannies until they were red. This is a win, win, win for Fordham.

1. Fordham is still in the Pl and eligible for the 2009 PL AQ.

2. Fordham will begin offering scolly's for 2010. (the 2009 recruiting class is already recruited and admitted. This is no concession by Fordham and a big concession by the PL There is no immediate penalty for Fordham)

3. Fordham has PL conference games guaranteed after they go scolly. In short they have guaranteed games against opponents who are not scolly but FCS.

What are the chances of Fordham not getting an at large playoff bid if they win the PL from 2010 onward in the expanded playoff system? With the current announced Fordham schedule they are an at large lock if they handle the PL teams.

Fordham probably had the stronger hand in this but in the end they played it beautifully. Fordham gave up nothing while the PL fuddy duds try to pretend to their adherents that this was a compromise.

Yes and the Munich agreement of 1938 was called a compromise but we all know who won that one. "

DFW HOYA

June 7th, 2009, 02:55 PM

Fordham and Georgetown are an either/or. There is no "and" in this equation. Fordham is gone if the decision is "no" on scholarships. Georgetown bails if it goes the other way.

There's no evidence of this. Unless the PL forces Georgetown out, it can stay right where it is. Then again, think of all the Ivy series it'll pick up once Lehigh and Lafayette add scholarships and the Ancient Eight back off the competition...

I also think people are fooling themsleves if they assume Fordham is going to stay in the PL with a pro-scholarship vote.

PLLB

June 7th, 2009, 05:01 PM

PLLB

June 7th, 2009, 05:03 PM

Some of you guys are acting like the world would end if the patriot league (football) goes up in smoke. If the SWC can close up shop, the patriot league can too.

DetroitFlyer

June 7th, 2009, 05:44 PM

This is the problem. Period. Georgetown spends about half, or less than half, than what the rest of the conference spends on football.

What's not "to get?"

The rest of the matters you cite are issues, maybe, but this is the problem.

Dayton spends FAR less than Georgetown, (about half), and yet, we defeated Fordham two years in a row. Once when they were the PL champion. There is MUCH more than money to this equation.

RichH2

June 7th, 2009, 06:21 PM

Flyer,

Please dont compare Dayton to GU. Money to the side,W/o doubt you still have access to 10 times the players than GU can even approach to admit. True $$ is not the only issue but for GU it is the 1st and most improtant tobe dealt with.

JoltinJoe

June 7th, 2009, 07:01 PM

Dayton spends FAR less than Georgetown, (about half), and yet, we defeated Fordham two years in a row. Once when they were the PL champion. There is MUCH more than money to this equation.

Do you seriously think the outcome of two games tells that much?

Dayton played well and caught Fordham on down weekends. There is no doubt, though, if Fordham played Dayton at the end of the 2007 season, for example, the game would have been a much different game.

Dayton knew when to quit when it was ahead and that is the only reason it cancelled the 2009 game.

If it played in the PL, Dayton would finish behind Georgetown. The money issue would become evident over the course of a full season.

Go...gate

June 7th, 2009, 07:42 PM

Best guess is that Colgate will unthinkably shoot itself in the foot and leave the only home they've ever had - or ever could have - to pursue dreams of athletic...what?!

Actually Colgate was an independent before 1986 and did fine. The Patriot League is a dinosaur. This decision is a great one for Fordham. I just hope the rest of the league follows suit. Those who are not onboard can join the NESCAC.

Respectfully, it is not. It has come up to speed on scholarships for other sports and it seems likely to me that it will do the same with FB, though I'm betting the PL will end up with a 40-scholarship limit so it can claim some cost containment.

colorless raider

June 7th, 2009, 08:10 PM

Respectfully, it is not. It has come up to speed on scholarships for other sports and it seems likely to me that it will do the same with FB, though I'm betting the PL will end up with a 40-scholarship limit so it can claim some cost containment.

40 scholarships does not get it done, Forget it, Bad idea. Either do it with 60-63 or punt and downgrade. What a wimpy idea.

carney2

June 7th, 2009, 08:21 PM

There's no evidence of this.

There are a number of very well informed people who state that Georgetown is gone with a "yes" vote on scholarships. Short of a public declaration by the Hoyas in charge - which they would be foolish to make at this time - I cannot conceive what would pass for "evidence" of this at such an early point in the process.

I also think people are fooling themsleves if they assume Fordham is going to stay in the PL with a pro-scholarship vote.

A very good point. Personally, I will be very surprised if Fordham is still in the League in 5 years.

carney2

June 7th, 2009, 08:25 PM

I'm betting the PL will end up with a 40-scholarship limit so it can claim some cost containment.

No chance! None! Nada! Zilch!

The magic number is 57 to get those FBS paydays. You can bet the rent money that it will not be less than that if it happens. My understanding is that Fordham has gone with 60.

RichH2

June 7th, 2009, 09:01 PM

Masella stated in a redio interview that FU has 15 scholarships for next yr. The total does appear to be 60. Regardless of what PL does absent a change in admin at FU it does not appear that they will stay with us forlong. The key is whether there is any place for them to go.

GU seems headed in the other direction. W/o sufficient funding from some deep pockets for more aid and better facilities, the program cannot survive, much less compete. They have had decent recruiting classes the last few yrs but not thatcombination of playersand staff esssential to get out of losing rut

When Dunlap started to rebuild LU , it took years , a great staff and more $$$ from the school.

ngineer

June 7th, 2009, 09:16 PM

No chance! None! Nada! Zilch!

The magic number is 57 to get those FBS paydays. You can bet the rent money that it will not be less than that if it happens. My understanding is that Fordham has gone with 60.

Could not the League go to 40 scholarships and still use remaining monies on the grant-in-aid basis so as to reach the 57 or more "equivalencies"?

I think HC would follow the 'Fab Four', but G'town, if it won't increase the $, can stay and be cannon fodder, or perhaps join the Pioneer?

RichH2

June 7th, 2009, 09:23 PM

Likely result would seem to include a combination of merit schollies and equivalencies

Fordham

June 7th, 2009, 09:26 PM

Not sure where the posts are coming from with such certainty that Georgetown can't exist in a scholarship world and that Fordham is such a lock to leave the PL, regardless of the league-wide decision on scholarships.

Go...gate

June 7th, 2009, 09:28 PM

40 scholarships does not get it done, Forget it, Bad idea. Either do it with 60-63 or punt and downgrade. What a wimpy idea.

Hey, take it easy! It's not my idea. It's what I'm thinking the PL will come up with to sell the scholarship gig. I want Colgate at 63 and I want to play Syracuse and Rutgers again.

DFW HOYA

June 7th, 2009, 09:31 PM

There are a number of very well informed people who state that Georgetown is gone with a "yes" vote on scholarships.

Not sure who would be claiming this, inasmuch as its athletic director left last month and university president Jack DeGioia has taken no position on this. (FWIW, Georgetown doesn't offer any merit aid to students in general, so that's not an option either.)

On a less contentious note, the American Enterprise Institute released its study of graduation rates for U.S. colleges from Department of Education data. The highest ranked I-AA school was (no surprise) Harvard at 97%, the lowest was Texas Southern at 12%. The PL scores are below--the inverse relationship between these percentages and public interest in pursuing scholarships is coincedental.

Georgetown 93%
Holy Cross: 92%
Colgate: 90%
Bucknell: 89%
Lafayette: 89%
Lehigh: 83%
Fordham: 80%

LUHawker

June 7th, 2009, 09:53 PM

I disagree that Fordham will bolt the PL in a few years time even if the PL implements scholarships. With scholarships, the PL will be a very competitive conference and should regularly be among the best conferences in FCS with some very strong teams. In years past, the PL has fielded several teams that defeated or gave strong CAA teams a run for their money. Typically in the losses, it came down to depth and the CAA teams wore down the PL teams. With scholarships, the equation changes a bit, with PL teams being able to offer superior academics plus $$ plus strong competition and post-season opportunities. A PL with scholarships should dramatically alter the strength of the League.

crusader11

June 7th, 2009, 10:54 PM

Kind of surprised Lehigh isn't higher. Fordham is where I expected it to be though.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 7th, 2009, 11:44 PM

Kind of surprised Lehigh isn't higher. Fordham is where I expected it to be though.

Lehigh is a little more diversified compared to the the smaller liberal arts schools. Lehigh while being a very tough school to get in to does admit more 1150 B+ kids than say Colgate or Lafayette.

JoltinJoe

June 8th, 2009, 07:17 AM

Kind of surprised Lehigh isn't higher. Fordham is where I expected it to be though.

Fordham doesn't hand out "As" for above average work, and doesn't coddle its athletes either.

And anytime you want to compare the faculties at Fordham and Holy Cross, let me know.

Ken_Z

June 8th, 2009, 09:30 AM

1) if the PL goes scholly they won't cap at less than 60; that would only increase the problems not solve them, individual schools may well fund less than 60 and supplement with need based.

2) if PL goes scholly, then i don't think Fordham will leave. there is no better place for them to go. if the CAA breakup occurs, i think it more likely the PL picks up a few teams e.g. Villanova, Richmond if they are run out of the CAA.

Lehigh Football Nation

June 8th, 2009, 09:53 AM

if PL goes scholly, then i don't think Fordham will leave. there is no better place for them to go. if the CAA breakup occurs, i think it more likely the PL picks up a few teams e.g. Villanova, Richmond if they are run out of the CAA.

The trouble with that is: how likely is the CAA going to want to drive out last year's FCS national champion and a team that is a threat this year (and a threat last year) to win it all in 2009? It was one thing when Richmond and Villanova were struggling with .500 records; it's quite different when both teams are CAA powerhouses.

That's not to say that there might be other candidates from the CAA (Hofstra if they join the A-10 in other sports, Northeastern, William & Mary) or elsewhere (Bryant, VMI, Monmouth) but I don't think the CAA would be in any hurry to expel the Cats or Spiders.

Ken_Z

June 8th, 2009, 10:07 AM

The trouble with that is: how likely is the CAA going to want to drive out last year's FCS national champion and a team that is a threat this year (and a threat last year) to win it all in 2009? It was one thing when Richmond and Villanova were struggling with .500 records; it's quite different when both teams are CAA powerhouses.

That's not to say that there might be other candidates from the CAA (Hofstra if they join the A-10 in other sports, Northeastern, William & Mary) or elsewhere (Bryant, VMI, Monmouth) but I don't think the CAA would be in any hurry to expel the Cats or Spiders.

i did not make my points clearly:

1) i am not predicting the CAA will run off those schools, however, if they are run off, then i think they will find a scholarship PL more attractive than forming a new conference.

2) if they are NOT run off, then there are still no options for Fordham that would appear to be more attractive than scholarship PL.

either way, i don't think they have a good reason to leave the league if (when)scholarships are approved.

Lehigh Football Nation

June 8th, 2009, 10:12 AM

i did not make my points clearly:

1) i am not predicting the CAA will run off those schools, however, if they are run off, then i think they will find a scholarship PL more attractive than forming a new conference.

2) if they are NOT run off, then there are still no options for Fordham that would appear to be more attractive than scholarship PL.

either way, i don't think they have a good reason to leave the league if (when)scholarships are approved.

Fair points. Also, as I remarked on the other thread, if Fordham really were rehearsing for the CAA or a new hitherto-unformed New Yankee Conference, why would the Rams agree to the same academic information sharing and AI restrictions used by the PL? If they were thinking of leaving, it would have been in their interest to just ditch need-based aid AND the AI at the same time, but they chose not to do that.

Fordham

June 8th, 2009, 10:58 AM

Fair points. Also, as I remarked on the other thread, if Fordham really were rehearsing for the CAA or a new hitherto-unformed New Yankee Conference, why would the Rams agree to the same academic information sharing and AI restrictions used by the PL? If they were thinking of leaving, it would have been in their interest to just ditch need-based aid AND the AI at the same time, but they chose not to do that.

Again, I agree with you that we're not in any hurry to leave the PL. That said, you could argue that the benefits of keeping our schedule intact outweighed ditching the AI and going independent.

Either way, though, I know that the people I speak with are genuinely hoping that the PL comes around and approves at least allowing all schools to do what they want.

What is more so interesting to me is seeing the different posts about what the PL could be doing in other sports like lacrosse or hockey, etc. It's amazing imo how powerful the idea of a full conference dedicated to being the best both athletically and academically could be but I've really given up hope that the league will ever capitalize on this tremendous potential. It's really too bad. No other conference occupies that space in the market now. Eventually someone will fill it and I'd bet it (unfortunately) won't be the PL.

crusader11

June 8th, 2009, 11:57 AM

Fordham doesn't hand out "As" for above average work, and doesn't coddle its athletes either.

And anytime you want to compare the faculties at Fordham and Holy Cross, let me know.

Listen, I did not mean to offend you, just saying Fordham is one notch below the rest of the school's in the PL from an academic standpoint. You would be kidding yourself to think that Fordham has as difficult a time getting football players in than everyone else in the PL.

Doc QB

June 8th, 2009, 12:06 PM

LFN has the link to the Fordham athletics website (I think) where the pres or AD or someone has a little Q&A...some really great points from that are enumerated, some of which really show that all the presidents need to do is change their scholarship philosophy for FOOTBALL, as other sports have gone full rides.

One, the money is ALREADY there. Period. How much teams are willing to spend is already there to fund the need-based awards. Is it 60? Is it 50? Doesn't matter, the need to fill out those financial aid forms disappears and a ton of new options for recoruiting better, smarter athletes emerges (as has been discussed numerous times previously).

Two, no title 9 disasters. The number of opportunities and money for men and women doesn't change.

With those two, pretty major points, all that really needs to be done is for the league presidents to adopt a similar attitude toward football as it already has for other sports. I am unsure why that is so hard. Fordham doing it is a major step. Just remember how awesome HC was in the late 80's with Duffner...they had great atheletes, all smart guys, and he was something like 66-5 over his tenure. Why the hell would be NOT want a league with several schools who could emerge and do that? Many of the members have made significant upgrades to their facilities...when HC was kicking the snot of the early Patriot league, they did it with marginal facilities. You see places that have upgraded, expanding facilities, expanding recruiting bases, some with TV packages, and add UNRESTRICTED aid....Jesus H Chr12t....the possibilities are tremendous.

It just to me, really doesn't seem to be all about money. And Fordham understands it, and deserves all the credit for really doing the right thing. Just imagine a league with members who could do what HC once did...

DFW HOYA

June 8th, 2009, 01:23 PM

One, the money is ALREADY there. Period. How much teams are willing to spend is already there to fund the need-based awards. Is it 60? Is it 50? Doesn't matter, the need to fill out those financial aid forms disappears and a ton of new options for recoruiting better, smarter athletes emerges (as has been discussed numerous times previously).

The money is not "already there" for Bucknell and it sure isn't there for Georgetown.

JoltinJoe

June 8th, 2009, 01:30 PM

Listen, I did not mean to offend you, just saying Fordham is one notch below the rest of the school's in the PL from an academic standpoint. You would be kidding yourself to think that Fordham has as difficult a time getting football players in than everyone else in the PL.

You're kidding yourself if you think Fordham isn't as good as any school in the PL.

There's a reason why so many Jesuits hold as least one degree from Fordham.

As for graduation rates, standing alone they don't tell you a lot, and in many instances they are more probative on the degree of grade inflation at school than the overall quality of the school.

Doc QB

June 8th, 2009, 01:35 PM

The money is not "already there" for Bucknell and it sure isn't there for Georgetown.

Then what does GU spend 1.5 mil on? It is need based aid? Right? They just don't want to pony up what the other schools do, and as such, should understand they'll never compete in this arms race UNLESS they can go after how ever many dollars worth they fund now with equivalencies/need based cash and get athletes there on full, unrestricted scholarships...even it is not as many as other league members, shouldn't it help?

crusader11

June 8th, 2009, 01:40 PM

RichH2

June 8th, 2009, 01:45 PM

Joe,

No one is saying that FU is not a good school, just that their floor for admission is the lowest in PL thereby giving them access to kids not available to the rest of PL. Nor does that imply that those kids are any less worthy or that they couldn't also succeed at another PL school.
The new situation certainly better for FU, schollies for recruits above PL floor better students and probably better ahtletes.

Do not understand issue about grade inflation.Is that an issue at any PL school. I doubt that very much

RichH2

June 8th, 2009, 02:08 PM

Crusader11,

Us News rankings, could you show where you got them. I thought that on that system lehigh ,as Universityon different scale than for ex, Colgate or LC as colleges. Thanks

Go...gate

June 8th, 2009, 02:13 PM

You're kidding yourself if you think Fordham isn't as good as any school in the PL.

There's a reason why so many Jesuits hold as least one degree from Fordham.

As for graduation rates, standing alone they don't tell you a lot, and in many instances they are more probative on the degree of grade inflation at school than the overall quality of the school.

Agreed.

JoltinJoe

June 8th, 2009, 02:24 PM

Check out the US News Rankings. I don't necessarily agree with these rankings as I don't think they are a true/fair assessment of a school, but for this purpose I will use it.

Fordham scored a 49. Every other school in the PL is significantly higher:

Lehigh 62
Colgate 82
Holy Cross 73
Bucknell 76
Lafayette 73
Georgetown 74

Fordham is a great school. All I am saying is they are just a notch below the rest of the PL.

Well, first of all, you are comparing US News scores without regard to whether the school is ranked as a national university or a national liberal arts college. A raw score of 49 in the national university category would no doubt be a higher raw score in the national liberal arts category.

I can do this too. Look at the Gourman Report ranking of undergraduate programs -- the only PL institution which Gourman ranks higher than Fordham is Georgetown, and only by a slight margin.

Or even look at the US News rankings of high school guidance counselors. Fordham ranks 34th among national universities by high school guidance counselors, in a group which includes Brandeis, RPI, and Wake Forest. Fordham was ranked higher than Lehigh. The criterion was simple: "We asked guidance counselors from America's Best High Schools to tell us which national universities they think offer the best education to their students."

I would suspect high school guidance counselors at America's Best High Schools have a pretty good grasp at which schools are the best at educating the kids leaving their schools.

By way of comparison, the PL national liberal arts college rankings (keep in mind that the national university category is, overall, a more competitive category): Colgate 15; Bucknell 25; Holy Cross 37; Lafayette 42.

I could get add some anecdotal evidence from my own law school experiences, as I had classmates from every Ivy and Patriot League school. My education proved to be at least as good, or better, in many respects, but I won't bore you with the details.

Fordham is a peer of the other PL schools. To say it is a notch below over-emphasizes overall student selectivity as a barometer of school quality. That is a single factor on which far too much emphasis is placed by US News. In my opinion, the quality of the graduates who leave the school is more important that the quality of the students admitted.

crusader11

June 8th, 2009, 02:35 PM

We will agree to disagree. Regardless of what the numbers are (we can all play the cliometrics game all day with numbers from different sources), I just think the full-time PL schools are a tad more competitive and selective than Fordham. That is all.

Go...gate

June 8th, 2009, 03:08 PM

Well, first of all, you are comparing US News scores without regard to whether the school is ranked as a national university or a national liberal arts college. A raw score of 49 in the national university category would no doubt be a higher raw score in the national liberal arts category.

I can do this too. Look at the Gourman Report ranking of undergraduate programs -- the only PL institution which Gourman ranks higher than Fordham is Georgetown, and only by a slight margin.

Or even look at the US News rankings of high school guidance counselors. Fordham ranks 34th among national universities by high school guidance counselors, in a group which includes Brandeis, RPI, and Wake Forest. Fordham was ranked higher than Lehigh. The criterion was simple: "We asked guidance counselors from America's Best High Schools to tell us which national universities they think offer the best education to their students."

I would suspect high school guidance counselors at America's Best High Schools have a pretty good grasp at which schools are the best at educating the kids leaving their schools.

By way of comparison, the PL national liberal arts college rankings (keep in mind that the national university category is, overall, a more competitive category): Colgate 15; Bucknell 25; Holy Cross 37; Lafayette 42.

I could get add some anecdotal evidence from my own law school experiences, as I had classmates from every Ivy and Patriot League school. My education proved to be at least as good, or better, in many respects, but I won't bore you with the details.

Fordham is a peer of the other PL schools. To say it is a notch below over-emphasizes overall student selectivity as a barometer of school quality. That is a single factor on which far too much emphasis is placed by US News. In my opinion, the quality of the graduates who leave the school is more important that the quality of the students admitted.

I believe Barron's Guides also gives Fordham much more comparable treatment with the rest of the PL.

JoltinJoe

June 8th, 2009, 03:24 PM

I believe Barron's Guides also gives Fordham much more comparable treatment with the rest of the PL.

I know Fordham is rated "highly competitive" in Barrons. Without looking, I'm certain that Georgetown and Colgate are among those relatively few schools rated in the top "most competitive" category. I know every PL school is ranked either in the top "most competitive" catgeory, or the next "highly competitive" category, but I couldn't tell you for sure which school is in which category.

LUHawker

June 8th, 2009, 04:30 PM

This academic pecking order discussion has been re-hashed, ad nauseum, on dozens on threads. Let's just all agree that all of the PL football-playing schools are high caliber and for purposes of an association to play football, fit very nicely.

There, now can we get back to discussing PL football and all of the possible Ramifications (pun intended) from Fordham's arm-twisting.

My reading of the tea leaves is that this is a stop gap measure that gives Fordham what it needs in the present, allows the slow-moving PL President's Council to do what it needs to (ie, budgeting, consensus-building, Trustee approval, etc.) to allow the PL to move forward with a scholarship option.

Based upon the language in the release from the PL, plus the explicit support from Lehigh, I think we'll see the implementation of scholarships within 2 years.

I think Lehigh's intentional and explicit support of scholarships is very significant because Lehigh is a founding member, has historically had the best attendance in the league and has been relatively successful. In short, it is one of the PL's heavy-weights and has meaningful influence.

We know Tavani wants schollies and Colgate has seemingly expressed support for them, so it stands to reason that there is momentum for schollies, which may be hard to dial back. Also, given the PL's woeful recent playoff and OOC record against scholarship conferences, the argument that the PL is not becoming second-tier in FCS would be insincere.

As for our Fordham friends, while I am very thankful that FU has forced the issue, it seems that some Ram posters think this is now the ticket to the big-time. On this point, I think those fans are delusional. Let's hope all the PL schools step it up (and I'm looking right at you, Georgetown), get on the scholly train and put a more competitive product on the field. Just imagine 2 playoff bids regularly, and dare I say, possible even a third in some years if the PL dropped the self-imposed financial restrictions. My oh my!

JoltinJoe

June 8th, 2009, 05:16 PM

As for our Fordham friends, while I am very thankful that FU has forced the issue, it seems that some Ram posters think this is now the ticket to the big-time. On this point, I think those fans are delusional.

I just don't see that from any Fordham poster in this thread.

LBPop

June 8th, 2009, 05:54 PM

Then again, think of all the Ivy series it'll pick up once Lehigh and Lafayette add scholarships and the Ancient Eight back off the competition...

I have finally had a chance to read this thread with great interest. I was all ready to post one question when DFW triggered another:

1) What are the rules with respect to transfers FCS to FCS? For example, could a 2009 Georgetown recruit who got little or no money, transfer to Fordham and play right away? I can easily envision someone who was enamoured of the idea of attending Georgetown, who received little or no financial help, and who is now struggling with $50K per year accepting a full or 50% schollie to head to the Bronx.

2) If this move leaves the Ivies with a much smaller group of out-of-conference schools to schedule, could they possibly make an exception and invite Georgetown as a football only member? I know this is a real long-shot, but which would be worse for them--making an exception for the Hoyas or consenting to play "inferior" institutions to fill their schedule?

RichH2

June 8th, 2009, 05:56 PM

True but your board has some wild dreams of old time national Catholic power ala Notre Dame

JoltinJoe

June 8th, 2009, 07:12 PM

True but your board has some wild dreams of old time national Catholic power ala Notre Dame

I still don't see it, unless you are talking about certain posts with winks and smiles attached.

Go...gate

June 8th, 2009, 07:52 PM

I have finally had a chance to read this thread with great interest. I was all ready to post one question when DFW triggered another:

1) What are the rules with respect to transfers FCS to FCS? For example, could a 2009 Georgetown recruit who got little or no money, transfer to Fordham and play right away? I can easily envision someone who was enamoured of the idea of attending Georgetown, who received little or no financial help, and who is now struggling with $50K per year accepting a full or 50% schollie to head to the Bronx.

2) If this move leaves the Ivies with a much smaller group of out-of-conference schools to schedule, could they possibly make an exception and invite Georgetown as a football only member? I know this is a real long-shot, but which would be worse for them--making an exception for the Hoyas or consenting to play "inferior" institutions to fill their schedule?

It's not unreasonable, because it fills one more scheduling opportunity for the Ivies, which membership would probably be happy having as few OOC games as possible.

TheValleyRaider

June 8th, 2009, 08:01 PM

It's not unreasonable, because it fills one more scheduling opportunity for the Ivies, which membership would probably be happy having as few OOC games as possible.

Georgetown's stirling academic reputation notwithstanding, is that really plausible? That not only would the Ivies expand the "Ancient Eight," but do so with an affiliate member? xeyebrowx

colorless raider

June 8th, 2009, 08:09 PM

I have finally had a chance to read this thread with great interest. I was all ready to post one question when DFW triggered another:

1) What are the rules with respect to transfers FCS to FCS? For example, could a 2009 Georgetown recruit who got little or no money, transfer to Fordham and play right away? I can easily envision someone who was enamoured of the idea of attending Georgetown, who received little or no financial help, and who is now struggling with $50K per year accepting a full or 50% schollie to head to the Bronx.

2) If this move leaves the Ivies with a much smaller group of out-of-conference schools to schedule, could they possibly make an exception and invite Georgetown as a football only member? I know this is a real long-shot, but which would be worse for them--making an exception for the Hoyas or consenting to play "inferior" institutions to fill their schedule?

On point #2 I would say dream on, but perhaps the Ivies would welcome the chance to beat you like a drum and make an exception.

Jackman

June 9th, 2009, 09:48 AM

I think the Ivies would sooner play their own members twice than expand their exclusive club.

Husky Alum

June 9th, 2009, 11:21 AM

If Harvard has problem filling its schedule EVER, they can call 617 373 2000, and ask for the Athletic Department.

We'll play at Harvard EVERY year, if we're asked.

We've made the offer for a while.

Heck, we'd do a multiple for one to play at Yale. In fact, I'd LOVE to see us play at the Bowl 2934343 times just to see them play at Parsons. Heck, their freshman field on a muddy day is better than Parsons.

CrusaderBob

June 9th, 2009, 02:09 PM

Georgetown's stirling academic reputation notwithstanding, is that really plausible? That not only would the Ivies expand the "Ancient Eight," but do so with an affiliate member? xeyebrowx

Georgetown as an affilitate member of the Ivy? Absolutely! Makes perfect sense.

And as an affiliate member Georgetown would:

play a full Ivy League Schedule
would not have its games against the Ivys show up in the standings
not be eligible for the Ivy League Championship

AND

be the only school eligible for the Ivy's automatic bid to the FCS playoffs

:D

LBPop

June 9th, 2009, 06:26 PM

On point #2 I would say dream on, but perhaps the Ivies would welcome the chance to beat you like a drum and make an exception.

I believe that this comment was directed at me. If it was, I think I should clarify that I am not Georgetown and I suspect that nobody is going to waste their time beating me like any percussion instrument. As for the Ivy League's desire to add an easy victim to its list, I think you're probably right. Why should the Patriot League have all the fun?

I threw this out there just for fun, but with the thought that while highly improbable, stranger things have happened. If this ever came to pass, I suspect that it would help Georgetown football quite a bit. Most of the student population at Georgetown either considered or was considered by at least one Ivy League school. And based on attendance when an "Ivy" comes to DC (both Georgetown fans and opposing fans), I think those games would generate a lot of excitement.

Of course this is all a fantasy, but when you are rooting for Hoya football, realilty is just not that much fun after the first couple of weeks in September. xsmhx

RichH2

June 9th, 2009, 06:55 PM

Pop,

I think you might actually get to enjoy a few more weeks. If your coaches can actually settle on1 offensive system, you do have some very good skill players. Ol will do you in as the eason progresses but before your skill people are worn out expect some wins

carney2

June 11th, 2009, 10:27 AM

I threw this out there just for fun, but with the thought that while highly improbable, stranger things have happened.

Name one.

The Ivies haven't changed a thing about their membership since day 1. Colgate begged, pleaded. wheedled and downright prostituted themselves for 4 decades. Nothing. Now, we are to believe that a lightning bolt will hit the ivory tower and Georgetown will be admitted to the inner sanctum. I want some of what you're smoking. And, of course, the Hoyas will be allowed to retain their Big Least hoops membership under this arrangement.

LBPop

June 12th, 2009, 01:00 PM

Name one.

Carney, please chill. I'm having a little fun; nobody really expects this to happen. And by the way, I don't have to name just one stranger thing--I can name a book full of them. The older edition was published BC.

bandit

June 12th, 2009, 02:28 PM

I scanned through the thread quickly, so this may have already been touched on, but my question is this: what is up with Georgetown's limitations financially as it pertains to football?

I don't mean this as a slap at G'town, just a serious question. Obviously Georgetown is a prestigious university, one of the top schools in the country. It is a member of arguably the strongest Division 1 conference in basketball, and a major player in college athletics. And yet from the posts here, it seems that G'town doesn't have much $$$ to play with.

I don't understand this... Are these self-imposed limitations on what is spent on athletics? It would seem to me that G'town should be overflowing with $$$, but that evidently isn't the case, and this is confusing to me.

As a resident of the D.C. area, I would love to see G'town upgrade its program. What needs to happen for that to happen?

carney2

June 12th, 2009, 02:49 PM

Carney, please chill. I'm having a little fun; nobody really expects this to happen. And by the way, I don't have to name just one stranger thing--I can name a book full of them. The older edition was published BC.

Chillin' ain't my thing. Just ask my buds at the LC forum.xrulesx

Curmudgeonly yours,

c2

colorless raider

June 12th, 2009, 02:56 PM

I believe that this comment was directed at me. If it was, I think I should clarify that I am not Georgetown and I suspect that nobody is going to waste their time beating me like any percussion instrument. As for the Ivy League's desire to add an easy victim to its list, I think you're probably right. Why should the Patriot League have all the fun?

I threw this out there just for fun, but with the thought that while highly improbable, stranger things have happened. If this ever came to pass, I suspect that it would help Georgetown football quite a bit. Most of the student population at Georgetown either considered or was considered by at least one Ivy League school. And based on attendance when an "Ivy" comes to DC (both Georgetown fans and opposing fans), I think those games would generate a lot of excitement.

Of course this is all a fantasy, but when you are rooting for Hoya football, realilty is just not that much fun after the first couple of weeks in September. xsmhx

OK, I get it. It's a no brainer if offered.

Franks Tanks

June 12th, 2009, 04:25 PM