Best I-AA/FCS Player Ever?

[AshevilleApp2]

This may have been done before, but I don't recall it.

Who has been the best player in the history of our division? I'm talking while in college, not in the NFL.

I'll grit my teeth and start by nominating Adrian Peterson from Georgia Southern. I can't remember what his streak of 100 yard games finally ended at, but I do recall that he was 45 for 45 after his junior season. That's three straight trips to the National Championship in that span.


I hope that after this season I can return to this subject and nominate a certain QB. xnodx But for now it's AP.

[89Hen]

Brian Westbrook - Villanova

[DFW HOYA]

Walter Payton.

Next question...

[Syntax Error]

Best I-AA/FCS Player ever? AP is a good nomination. So many to choose from. (http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php/2008/12/18/1978-to-2008-the-fcs-top-thirty-lists?blog=5) Coakely is another one, only two-time winner of the Buchanan Award.

[89Hen]

Walter Payton.

Next question...
Never played I-AA. Question still valid. xnodx

[AshevilleApp2]

Never played I-AA. Question still valid. xnodx

I should have been more clear. Best since the Division was actually formed in 1978.

[Native]

Steve McNair, Alcorn State. xnodx

From Wikipedia: "... In 1992, McNair threw for 3,541 yards and 29 touchdowns, and ran in for 10 more scores. The Braves fashioned a record of 7–4, including a last-second victory in their rematch with Grambling. ... The victory over Grambling helped the Braves qualify for the 1-AA playoffs. McNair helped Alcorn State to another good year in 1993, as the Braves upped their record to 8-3 while McNair threw for more than 3,000 yards and 30 touchdowns. He was also named First-Team All-SWAC for the third year in a row.

In his senior season, McNair gained nearly 6,000 yards rushing and passing, along with 53 touchdowns. In the process, he surpassed more than a dozen records and was named an All-American. In addition, McNair won the Walter Payton Award and finished third in the Heisman Trophy voting behind Rashaan Salaam and Ki-Jana Carter...."

Doug Williams, Grambling. His last year in college was 1978.

[wideright82]

What that cooky old hen said! xthumbsupxxlolxxlolx:D

[ChickenMan]

Brian Westbrook

[Syntax Error]

[B]Steve McNair, Alcorn State.
Doug Williams, Grambling.
Was going to mention Willie Totten but not Bruce Eugene.

[PaladinFan]

I really don't think an argument can be made that excludes Steve McNair.

Adrian Peterson was a phenomenal player (one of the best), but there was at least one season where he wasn't even the best running back in the SoCon (Furman's Louis Ivory took the Payton Award his Junior season).

[MaroonDoom]

I think one that is overlooked. EKU's Markus Thomas, 1989-92, 5,552 rushing yards, yards per carry rushing - 6.57.

[UNHFan]

Ricky Santos! NeXT QUESTION!!!

[OldSouth]

Spanning a four year College career.
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Dexter Coakley
3. Steve McNair

[Syntax Error]

Rice and Ball have to be in the discussion.

[jmufan999]

Brian Westbrook was beyond dominant. he was unstoppable.

[jmufan999]

i have no problem with McNair as an answer too. never saw him play in college but the numbers are sick.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Depends on what criteria you want to use.

Adrian Peterson's college stats would blow most any FSC players away (over 9000 career yards if you count playoff games as you should).

[TTUEagles]

I was...

xlolx

[wideright82]

WOW......



Though he battled through several injuries, he holds the all-time NCAA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Collegiate_Athletic_Association) record with 9,512 all-purpose yards, breaking the 9,301 yards accumulated by Brian Shay of Emporia State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emporia_State_University). In 46 career games, he scored 542 points with 84 touchdowns, carried the ball 725 times for 4,298 yards (6.2 avg.), caught 219 passes for 2,582 yards (11.79 avg.) and gained 2,289 yards and four touchdowns on kickoff returns. Along the way, he established 41 school, 13 Atlantic Ten Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ten_Conference) and five NCAA records.
Westbrook became the only player in I-AA history to score 160 or more points twice in a career and the first player in the history of college football at any level with 1,000 rushing and 1,000 receiving yards in one season (1998). He is one of only two players in Villanova history to rush for over 1,000 yards in a season and he accomplished that feat three times.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Westbrook

[GannonFan]

Rich Gannon. xsmiley_wix

[smallcollegefbfan]

Spanning a four year College career.
1. Adrian Peterson
2. Dexter Coakley
3. Steve McNair

Add Rice, Santos, and Westbrook and that may be the top 5-6 of all-time. If AE wins the Payton this year, he will move into that group.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Best I-AA/FCS Player ever? AP is a good nomination. So many to choose from. (http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php/2008/12/18/1978-to-2008-the-fcs-top-thirty-lists?blog=5) Coakely is another one, only two-time winner of the Buchanan Award.

He is definitely the best defensive player in the the history of the division. He probably should have won the Butkus Award as a senior but we all know the I-A bias in voting at the time. I don't think we will see another two-time winner of the Buchanan and I really doubt we will see a two-time Payton winner soon. Something tells me that we will see a surprise winner for the Payton this year. Just don't ask me to guess because any name other than AE right now sounds stupid. :D

[Native]

i have no problem with McNair as an answer too. never saw him play in college but the numbers are sick.

I cannot find all the stats but I think Steve averaged well over 400 total passing and rushing yards per game over a full four year college career, which would push him past 16,000 total yards and maybe even towards 20,000. xeekx

1991: ???? yards and TDs passing and rushing
1992: 3,541 yards and 29 touchdowns passing, ???? yards and 10 TDs rushing
1993: 3,000+ yards and 30 touchdowns passing, ???? yards and TDs rushing?
1994: Nearly 6,000 yards passing and rushing

[blueballs]

Tracy Ham because of the miracle that was Georgia Southern football in the mid 80's. He and Coach Russell took a dormant program and led it to 2 national titles in 5 years on a shoestring budget and a team full of walkons.

Ham did the most with the least around him in 1985 than any player in the history of the division.

For every one of the players mentioned so far I would ask the question, could Ham have done what (insert player's name here) did in his situation and could (insert player's name here) have done what Ham did in HIS situation? When you answer that question you'll know why Ham was the best.

[OSBF]

Jerry Rice. Period.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Brian Westbrook.. best football player i've ever seen in person.

[MR. CHICKEN]

RANDY MOSS.....xeekx......BRAWK!

OMAR CUFF........xnodx.....BRAWK!

[GannonFan]

Brian Westbrook.. best football player i've ever seen in person.


Too young to see Rich Gannon, I understand. :p

[LU73]

Having seen Gordie Lockbaum play, I am not able to nominate one of my own Lehigh favorites.

Gordie Lockbaum attended the College of the Holy Cross, from 1984-1988. Lockbaum was known as football's 60-minute man. He played halfback and wide receiver on offense, cornerback on defense and excelled as a kick returner on special teams. In 1987, he once was named his school's Defensive Player of the week and Offensive Player of the week, in the same week.

He Played for Holy Cross and finished fifth in the Heisman voting in 1986, third in 1987. He was second in the Maxwell Trophy vote in 1987. Lockbaum was two-time Most Valuable Player in the Colonial League,two-time winner of the Washington Touchdown Club's All-Purpose Back of the year. In 1987, he was Player of the Year in the Eastern Athletic Conference, Back of the Year in New England, and won a National Scholar-Athlete Award from the National Football Foundation and College Hall Fame. He was named WTBS National Player of the Year and was named the Football News Division I-AA Player of the Year. He was a two-time First Team All-America selection, receiving recognition on offense, defense, and special teams.

He scored six touchdowns against Dartmouth in 1986. He caught 15 passes for 196 yards against Villanova in 1987. Lockbaum scored 22 touchdowns in 1986, 22 in 1987. He had 2,173 all-purpose yards in 1986, 2,071 in 1987.In 1987, he had 78 pass receptions for 1,152 yards.

[grizband]

Depends on what criteria you want to use.

Adrian Peterson's college stats would blow most any FSC players away (over 9000 career yards if you count playoff games as you should).
Dave Dickensen could add another 1500-2000 passing yards and 20+ more TDs if playoff games counted in career stats when he played. (I am estimating these numbers, I figured out the exact counts at one point, but cannot remember the totals).

I nominate Dave Dickensen.

[colorless raider]

Brian Westbrook

Westbrook for me as well. Beat us twice!

[andy7171]

I'm going to vote for Air McNair.

[Original_RMC]

Tim Hall - Robert Morris

Football (1994-95)


http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics5/160/DK/DKIUTRLWBFWSWGZ.20070608150926.jpg

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics27/200/FQ/FQONGPJRHQMIWND.20070608150902.jpg


The team’s inaugural tailback, Hall established every rushing record at Robert Morris in his two years on the team, rushing for 2,908 yards on his career, which now ranks second all-time, and a single-season record 1,572 yards in 1995. His 278 yards against Bethany Nov. 5, 1994 still stands as the single-game record. Hall established the NCAA FCS record by averaging 8.7 yards per carry in 1994, and in 1995 he was named an NCAA I-AA All-American according to The Associated Press.
Drafted by the Oakland Raiders in the 6th round (183rd overall) of the 1996 Draft

He passed away in September of 1998.

[Syntax Error]

Lockbaum is a contender, somehow whiffed on CSN's top 30 lists (http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php/2008/12/18/1978-to-2008-the-fcs-top-thirty-lists?blog=5).

[Cobblestone]

Having seen Gordie Lockbaum play, I am not able to nominate one of my own Lehigh favorites.

Gordie Lockbaum attended the College of the Holy Cross, from 1984-1988. Lockbaum was known as football's 60-minute man. He played halfback and wide receiver on offense, cornerback on defense and excelled as a kick returner on special teams. In 1987, he once was named his school's Defensive Player of the week and Offensive Player of the week, in the same week.

He Played for Holy Cross and finished fifth in the Heisman voting in 1986, third in 1987. He was second in the Maxwell Trophy vote in 1987. Lockbaum was two-time Most Valuable Player in the Colonial League,two-time winner of the Washington Touchdown Club's All-Purpose Back of the year. In 1987, he was Player of the Year in the Eastern Athletic Conference, Back of the Year in New England, and won a National Scholar-Athlete Award from the National Football Foundation and College Hall Fame. He was named WTBS National Player of the Year and was named the Football News Division I-AA Player of the Year. He was a two-time First Team All-America selection, receiving recognition on offense, defense, and special teams.

He scored six touchdowns against Dartmouth in 1986. He caught 15 passes for 196 yards against Villanova in 1987. Lockbaum scored 22 touchdowns in 1986, 22 in 1987. He had 2,173 all-purpose yards in 1986, 2,071 in 1987.In 1987, he had 78 pass receptions for 1,152 yards.

What LU said. xnodx

[Gil Dobie]

Steve McNair

[MSU_77]

I don't know if he was the best, but he deserves consideration:

Kerry Joseph, McNeese quarterback 1993-1995. Set 15 McNeese records ... Is McNeese's all-time career total offense leader with 9,676 yards on 1,649 plays ... Completed 565 career passes for 7,874 yards and 67 touchdowns... Rushed 535 times for 1,802 yards and 19 touchdowns ...Set school record in 1995 for offensive yards in one season (3,038) ... Completed 168 of 318 passes in 1995 for 2,485 and 27 touchdowns in that senior year.

Played starting safety for four seasons with the Seattle Seahawks in the NFL. Since 2003 has started at quarterback in the CFL. Just re-signed with the Toronto Argonauts. In 2007 was named the CFL's Most Outstanding Player. In 2005, he became only the third player in league history to exceed 4,000 yards passing (4,466) and 1,000 rushing (1,006). He threw 25 TD passes and ran for another nine. In six seasons, he has thrown for 22,587 yards and 120 TDs. In addition, he has rushed for 3,862 yards and 41 TDs.

[foghorn]

Randy Moss was the best D-IAA player without a doubt. A man among whippersnappers!xcoffeex

[Chi Panther]

Randy Moss...best ever. Ironically UNI is the college team to not allow a receiving TD to Moss....I-A or I-AA...

UNI has faced many of good QBs in the past few years. One kid that never gets mentioned is Kevin Glenn. If there was ever a category of most under-rated....I'd give it to him.

[Tribe4SF]

Brian Westbrook!xthumbsupx

His final collegiate game was at W&M in 2001 with a playoff spot on the line. The final score was W&M 47 Villanova 44, and he was the only reason the Wildcats were in the game. As it was throughout his career, you had the sense every time he touched the ball that he was going to score.

[JohnStOnge]

My opinion:

Tracy Ham.

Of course, I'm talking relative to the time. But to this day I've not seen a I-AA/FCS player I'd less like to see taking the field for the other team.

[flea]

I don't know if he was the best, but he deserves consideration:

Kerry Joseph, McNeese quarterback 1993-1995. Set 15 McNeese records ... Is McNeese's all-time career total offense leader with 9,676 yards on 1,649 plays ... Completed 565 career passes for 7,874 yards and 67 touchdowns... Rushed 535 times for 1,802 yards and 19 touchdowns ...Set school record in 1995 for offensive yards in one season (3,038) ... Completed 168 of 318 passes in 1995 for 2,485 and 27 touchdowns in that senior year.

Played starting safety for four seasons with the Seattle Seahawks in the NFL. Since 2003 has started at quarterback in the CFL. Just re-signed with the Toronto Argonauts. In 2007 was named the CFL's Most Outstanding Player. In 2005, he became only the third player in league history to exceed 4,000 yards passing (4,466) and 1,000 rushing (1,006). He threw 25 TD passes and ran for another nine. In six seasons, he has thrown for 22,587 yards and 120 TDs. In addition, he has rushed for 3,862 yards and 41 TDs.

Also played QB/S in NFLE

[JDC325]

If RINGS and RECORDS matter then..AP or Ham take your pick. xnodx

[Rob Iola]

Lots of really great players mentioned - no arguments with any of them.

But Randy Moss (and maybe, just maybe, Jerry Rice) was in a class by himself in college (he didn't pass it, of course)...

[93henfan]

I was tempted to go with Moss, but he only played one year in I-AA.

B-West gets my vote.

[parr90]

Adrian Peterson no doubt.

[g-webb1994]

I'm am far from a GSU fan, but hands down it has to be Tracy Ham.

GSU was an indy team back then, built from scratch. Use a decent example. Furman ruled the SOCON in those same years with Bobby Lamb, who was a helluva QB. Imagine Ham on those teams with Dick Sheridan coaching.....scary thought that those FU teams would have been better.

[Hoyadestroya85]

I've said it before.. Adrian Peterson wasn't even the best player in FCS when he was in college. Brian Westbrook was a fiend. Had he been on one team with a half servicable defense, Villanova would have won the title. Especially in 97

[Syntax Error]

I've said it before.. Adrian Peterson wasn't even the best player in FCS when he was in college. Brian Westbrook was a fiend. Had he been on one team with a half servicable defense, Villanova would have won the title. Especially in 97Homerism much? xlolx xsmoochx

Love Westbrook and he is in the hunt like Amerson.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Oh, I'm a huge homer.. But Brian Westbrook literally carried a team on his back for three of his four years. Never had a good defense. He's the NCAA career leader in all purpose yards and if he had played as many games as Peterson that number would have been much higher.

[seantaylor]

Adrian Peterson easily. The guy is the all time leading rusher in any division in college football.

[MR. CHICKEN]

RUSHER.....SMUSHER...GIVE ME TD'S.............OMAR CUFF......xbowx.....BRAWK!!

[phillyAPP]

RUSHER.....SMUSHER...GIVE ME TD'S.............OMAR CUFF......xbowx.....BRAWK!!


YO !!! I BAWK your BAWK...... and raise you 5 Bawks ...... Cuff aint even in the "Running" !!

BAWK xnonono2x

[smallcollegefbfan]

Adrian Peterson easily. The guy is the all time leading rusher in any division in college football.

I would give it to AP based on his career but had Randy Moss played 4 seasons I think he might get the nod. I have never seen a player do what AP did for 4 season on offense. He was amazing to watch!

[GATA]

Add Rice, Santos, and Westbrook and that may be the top 5-6 of all-time. If AE wins the Payton this year, he will move into that group.

In my mind, Armanti Edwards is already ahead of Ricky Santos. I still think Santos is a top 10 guy though.

[GATA]

Adrian Peterson easily. The guy is the all time leading rusher in any division in college football.

He's not the leading rusher in ANY division...just division I (FBS/FCS combined). There are actually DII and DIII backs who have rushed for more yards...

However, if the NCAA would retroactively count AP's yards from playoff games (like they should), it's not even close...he's somewhere around 10,000 yards...it's sick.

[smallcollegefbfan]

He's not the leading rusher in ANY division...just division I (FBS/FCS combined). There are actually DII and DIII backs who have rushed for more yards...

However, if the NCAA would retroactively count AP's yards from playoff games (like they should), it's not even close...he's somewhere around 10,000 yards...it's sick.

That is very sad they don't include those. I really think AP saved most of his best performances for the playoffs when you think about "the run" and the "son of the run", etc. Absolutely sick!

[ASU]

He's not the leading rusher in ANY division...just division I (FBS/FCS combined). There are actually DII and DIII backs who have rushed for more yards...

However, if the NCAA would retroactively count AP's yards from playoff games (like they should), it's not even close...he's somewhere around 10,000 yards...it's sick.

Regardless of who is the best.......we have had some damn good players.

[smallcollegefbfan]

In my mind, Armanti Edwards is already ahead of Ricky Santos. I still think Santos is a top 10 guy though.

I am sure I will put him in there. I have a tough time ranking a current player with so many things that could happen before their career is over. If AE does what he is capable of this year there is no doubt he is in the top 5 all-time, maybe top 3.

[Houndawg]

There's a reason it's called the Walter Payton Award.

[blueballs]

That is very sad they don't include those. I really think AP saved most of his best performances for the playoffs when you think about "the run" and the "son of the run", etc. Absolutely sick!

Those are signature type plays that legends are made of.

IMO the best AP performance was the 1999 quarterfinal game at Paulson against defending champion UMass in the "revenge" game for GSU.

Despite playing with an upper chest cold and a turf toe injury that had him on crutches during the week Peterson gouged UMass for 333 yards rushing and scored 32 points by himself. He also knocked UMass' all american defensive leader, Kole Ayi, out of the game. Just incredible...

Peterson would put up his best peformances in the playoffs for two reasons, the SoCon had more experience defending the spread option, and GSU had a lot of blowouts during the regular seasons- therefore he got more carries in the playoffs against defenses that weren't as familiar against the spread option.

The funny thing about Peterson is that he put up all those yeards and I'd bet he played in the fourth quarter in only about half his career games and didn't play in the second half in about a fourth. If there was some kind of metric where we could derive his yards per four quarters actually played his production would be even more eye popping.

As it is I can't see his records (if you include playoffs) ever being surpassed. His was the perfect storm of a great player who red shirted and was a starter as a RS freshman, as the featured player, playing on four national championship caliber teams, and stayed healthy for the most part.

[seantaylor]

He's not the leading rusher in ANY division...just division I (FBS/FCS combined). There are actually DII and DIII backs who have rushed for more yards...

However, if the NCAA would retroactively count AP's yards from playoff games (like they should), it's not even close...he's somewhere around 10,000 yards...it's sick.

Not if you are counting playoff yards. Which should be counted. AP surpasses everyone then.

[eaglesrthe1]

Those are signature type plays that legends are made of.

IMO the best AP performance was the 1999 quarterfinal game at Paulson against defending champion UMass in the "revenge" game for GSU.

Despite playing with an upper chest cold and a turf toe injury that had him on crutches during the week Peterson gouged UMass for 333 yards rushing and scored 32 points by himself. He also knocked UMass' all american defensive leader, Kole Ayi, out of the game. Just incredible...

Peterson would put up his best peformances in the playoffs for two reasons, the SoCon had more experience defending the spread option, and GSU had a lot of blowouts during the regular seasons- therefore he got more carries in the playoffs against defenses that weren't as familiar against the spread option.

The funny thing about Peterson is that he put up all those yeards and I'd bet he played in the fourth quarter in only about half his career games and didn't play in the second half in about a fourth. If there was some kind of metric where we could derive his yards per four quarters actually played his production would be even more eye popping.

As it is I can't see his records (if you include playoffs) ever being surpassed. His was the perfect storm of a great player who red shirted and was a starter as a RS freshman, as the featured player, playing on four national championship caliber teams, and stayed healthy for the most part.

Also a 4 time Payton finalist. Has that been done again?

[GaSouthern]

If I cant pick Adrian Peterson because I am a GSU fan then I hate to say Armanti would get my vote.

[GaSouthern]

He's not the leading rusher in ANY division...just division I (FBS/FCS combined). There are actually DII and DIII backs who have rushed for more yards...

However, if the NCAA would retroactively count AP's yards from playoff games (like they should), it's not even close...he's somewhere around 10,000 yards...it's sick.

Look at my sig for the correct amount.

[UncleSam]

Brian Westbrook - no doubt, he could beat you three ways, rushing, receiving and also as a kick returner. BW is the ONLY college player to both rush and receive for over 1000 yrds in the same season. As for a AP, a great college RB, but Westbrook was FAR more dangerous and explosive. Put AP on Nova and he's just another very good back, but put Westbrook on those GSU teams and he's still the best player in the FCS.

[Thundering_Herd]

Jerry Rice
Kurt Warner
Adrian Peterson
Brian Westbrook
Randy Moss
Steve McNair
Richard Dent
Michael Strahan
Terrell Owens
Rich Gannon
Phil Simms
Duante Culpepper
Tony Romo
Neil Lomax
Matt Birk
Nate Newton
Charles Haley
Dexter Coakley

There,... my 2 cents.

[Eaglesrus]

Brian Westbrook - no doubt, he could beat you three ways, rushing, receiving and also as a kick returner. BW is the ONLY college player to both rush and receive for over 1000 yrds in the same season. As for a AP, a great college RB, but Westbrook was FAR more dangerous and explosive. Put AP on Nova and he's just another very good back, but put Westbrook on those GSU teams and he's still the best player in the FCS.

xlolxxlolxxlolx

[UncleSam]

xlolxxlolxxlolx


AP was a great player, but he WAS largely a product of that GSU system, put AP in a traditional offensive and he would not have been nearly as effective.

The 'facts' back that up, AP can't get off the bench with the Bears, while Westbrook is widely recognized as one of the best and most dangerous players in the NFL. And it's been that way ever since each player entered the NFL. :D

[Eaglesrus]

AP was a great player, but he WAS largely a product of that GSU system, put AP in a traditional offensive and he would not have been nearly as effective.

The 'facts' back that up, AP can't get off the bench with the Bears, while Westbrook is widely recognized as one of the best and most dangerous players in the NFL. And it's been that way ever since each player entered the NFL. :D

Sorry, I can't agree based on a comparison of performance in the NFL, which is a whole different level and type of competition, and I didn't indicate that I thought AP was better than Westbrook anyway. For one thing their styles are different. You have basically repeated the reason I found your comment about AP amusing. You apparently had little to no exposure to his college career; he would have been a star anywhere in 1-AA/FCS.

[smallcollegefbfan]

AP was a great player, but he WAS largely a product of that GSU system, put AP in a traditional offensive and he would not have been nearly as effective.

The 'facts' back that up, AP can't get off the bench with the Bears, while Westbrook is widely recognized as one of the best and most dangerous players in the NFL. And it's been that way ever since each player entered the NFL. :D

AP was the better college player and Westbrook is the better NFL player for one reason... speed. Peterson was a 4.6 or 4.7 guy while Westbrook was a 4.4, I believe.

A player can be very good at this level and be slow by the NFL standard such as AP. Many of the things AP got away with here you can't do in the NFL. For example, when he played Youngstown State in the title game look at all of the broken tackles and that just doesn't happen in the NFL. AP could be caught easily in college but being tackled was a whole different story. Maybe a GSU fan can correct me but it was rumored he had a 600 pound squat and 400-450 bench. That is almost superhuman for a man his size.

AP was so much stronger, ran harder, and was tougher than anyone else thus making him so dominate. That still doesn't take away from the fact that he was the best RB in FCS history, in my mind.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Westbrook being better in the NFL and AP being better in the college. Both are making paychecks in the NFL and both were great college backs.

Someone from GSU correct me if I am wrong but it seemed as though AP lacking great speed probably helped him show his strength even more. He would accelerate so quickly but would be caught 10-15 yards down the field and then showed his brute strength by stiff arming, running over, or flat out carrying a defender with him for several yards down the field.

It was truly amazing. For those on this board who are younger and have not seen him, here are some clips from youtube that would give you just a little glimpse of what many of us saw for four years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftVLoFWZA7s&feature=related "the run"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnzHhcvLd0 "son of the run"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_ABmN-sMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIO8sSeVoM

[SideLine Shooter]

If I cant pick Adrian Peterson because I am a GSU fan then I hate to say Armanti would get my vote.

A wise man. I can't decide on best player ever, unless it is Jerry Rice. As far as nominating Armanti, I will say that he is the Most Exciting Player in all of College Football at this point.But that is just my opinion.

[blueballs]

AP was the better college player and Westbrook is the better NFL player for one reason... speed. Peterson was a 4.6 or 4.7 guy while Westbrook was a 4.4, I believe.

A player can be very good at this level and be slow by the NFL standard such as AP. Many of the things AP got away with here you can't do in the NFL. For example, when he played Youngstown State in the title game look at all of the broken tackles and that just doesn't happen in the NFL. AP could be caught easily in college but being tackled was a whole different story. Maybe a GSU fan can correct me but it was rumored he had a 600 pound squat and 400-450 bench. That is almost superhuman for a man his size.

AP was so much stronger, ran harder, and was tougher than anyone else so he was able to dominate. That still doesn't take away from the fact that he was the best RB in FCS history, in my mind.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Westbrook being better in the NFL and AP being better in the college. Both are making paychecks in the NFL and both were great college backs.

Someone from GSU correct me if I am wrong but it seemed as though AP lacking great speed probably helped him show his strength even more. He would accelerate so quickly but would be caught 10-15 yards down the field and then showed his brute strength by stiff arming, running over, or flat out carrying a defender with him for several yards down the field.

It was truly amazing. For those on this board who are younger and have not seen him, here are some clips from youtube that would give you just a little glimpse of what many of us saw for four years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftVLoFWZA7s&feature=related "the run"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnzHhcvLd0 "son of the run"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_ABmN-sMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIO8sSeVoM

So much of what is quoted above is true, very keen observations.

One of my favorite AP moments was proof of this. In a 2000 playoff game at Paulson againist McNeese, AP had been hit late a couple of times and was quite PO'ed about it. He was not the demonstrative type but you could tell by his body language that he was not happy.

McNeese had GSU pinned deep and AP broke through on a trap option and got to the sideline. Either of our starting slots or Revere might have taken it all the way but AP knew one of the players who had hit him late earlier had an angle on him so he slowed down a little and let the angle close, deeked the player into thinking he was going to step out, then hit the gas and, with a very well placed forearm to the face that was totally legal, planted the defender about 5 yards out of bounds. The defender had to leave the game.

Peterson was the best because he was the most consistent and he was the best in the biggest games. Take a look at his production against !-A foes, playoff games, and games against top 10 opponents. He always came up big and made the winning plays. That's why he was the best.

[wcucat85]

CLYDE SIMMONS.... WESTERN CAROLINA............82 THROUGH 85....1AA ALL AMERICAN,........13 YEARS NFL,.................7TH ALL TIME SACKS NFL...........PLAYED ALONG SIDE REGGIE WHITE WITH EAGLES ............AWESOME PLAYER TOTALLY UNDERATED.........WESTERN IS FIGHTING TO GET BACK TO THE TIME WE PLAYED IN THE 1AA CHAMP.GAME.............THE WATERS YEARS WHEN HE WAS SICK TOOK A LOT OUT THE PROGRAM AND IT SEEMS LIKE WE CANT RECOVER....BUT COACH WAGNER HAS THINGS LOOKING UP FOR SURExthumbsupx

[89Hen]

There's a reason it's called the Walter Payton Award.
Walter Payton never played I-AA. xpeacex

[wcucat85]

JACKSON STATE WAS STILL CONSIDERED 1A

[wcucat85]

I WOULD SAY THAT THE TWO BEST DEFENSIVE ENDS EVER TO PLAY IN THE SOUTHERN CONFERENCE SINCE 1978 WOULD BE CLYDE SIMMONS AND LOUIS COOPER.........A TOTAL OF 19 NFL YEARS AS WELL BETWEEN THEM...........WESTERN CAROLINA

[blukeys]

I actually saw Adrian Peterson and Brian Westbrook play in person, on the same field, against pretty much the same defense, and in my mind there is no comparison. Brian Westbrook is a better player than GSU's Adrian Peterson. Peterson had the advantage of having much better personnel surrounding him. I actually thought Revere was a more dangerous weapon on the 97 GSU team than Peterson. Anyone who makes this decision solely on statistics is ignoring the reality that this is a team game and the guy on the better team will get the better statistics.

Also, don't give me the Payton argument. As 2007 demonbstrated this is totally political. When a decent but not exceptional UNI quarterback can come in second for the Payton and Joe flacco isn't even on the ballot, then something is wrong.

The NFL performance simply confirms what anyone who saw BOTH players in person could assess. Brian Westbrool was the better player.

For my vote for best FCS player my vote goes to Jerry Rice. I saw John Taylor in college and for him to be the # 2 receiver to anyone blows me away. (not to mention Jerry's stats @ his alma Mater.

[Hoyadestroya85]

AP was the better college player and Westbrook is the better NFL player for one reason... speed. Peterson was a 4.6 or 4.7 guy while Westbrook was a 4.4, I believe.

A player can be very good at this level and be slow by the NFL standard such as AP. Many of the things AP got away with here you can't do in the NFL. For example, when he played Youngstown State in the title game look at all of the broken tackles and that just doesn't happen in the NFL. AP could be caught easily in college but being tackled was a whole different story. Maybe a GSU fan can correct me but it was rumored he had a 600 pound squat and 400-450 bench. That is almost superhuman for a man his size.

AP was so much stronger, ran harder, and was tougher than anyone else thus making him so dominate. That still doesn't take away from the fact that he was the best RB in FCS history, in my mind.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Westbrook being better in the NFL and AP being better in the college. Both are making paychecks in the NFL and both were great college backs.

Someone from GSU correct me if I am wrong but it seemed as though AP lacking great speed probably helped him show his strength even more. He would accelerate so quickly but would be caught 10-15 yards down the field and then showed his brute strength by stiff arming, running over, or flat out carrying a defender with him for several yards down the field.

It was truly amazing. For those on this board who are younger and have not seen him, here are some clips from youtube that would give you just a little glimpse of what many of us saw for four years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftVLoFWZA7s&feature=related "the run"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnzHhcvLd0 "son of the run"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_ABmN-sMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIO8sSeVoM

then basically by you saying that.. You're saying that Brian Westbrook is the more gifted player.. which makes him better. Westbrook almost had a 1,000 rushing yard, 1,000 receiving yard and 1,000 return yard season had he not been taken off kickoffs. Look at Jonathan Dwyer right now.. That flexbone Fullback always gets production no matter who's in it.

[Hoyadestroya85]

I'm a Villanova fan, so it would be perfectly justifiable for me to vote for Westbrook. But I won't, because I think that Jerry Rice is possibly not only the greatest receiver ever (without question), but the greatest player ever. This shouldn't turn into an AP vs. Westbrook argument when the fact is, people are trying to justify them over JERRY FREAKING RICE.

[blukeys]

I'm a Villanova fan, so it would be perfectly justifiable for me to vote for Westbrook. But I won't, because I think that Jerry Rice is possibly not only the greatest receiver ever (without question), but the greatest player ever. This shouldn't turn into an AP vs. Westbrook argument when the fact is, people are trying to justify them over JERRY FREAKING RICE.

I agree with the above and anyone who says I agreed with a Nova fan, I will shoot after dark!!!;););)

As I stated above I think that Jerry Rice was the Best FCS player ever. I also said that I believed that Westbrook was superior to Peterson based on my observations of both on game day at Delaware Stadium. ( I also think Napoleon McCallum was better than Peterson).

All that being said, I will probably have to spend another 10 years in purgatory for my support of a Nova Player. (Catholic reference) I will deal with that later. xnodx

[smallcollegefbfan]

then basically by you saying that.. You're saying that Brian Westbrook is the more gifted player.. which makes him better. Westbrook almost had a 1,000 rushing yard, 1,000 receiving yard and 1,000 return yard season had he not been taken off kickoffs. Look at Jonathan Dwyer right now.. That flexbone Fullback always gets production no matter who's in it.

Very true about the production but AP put up numbers that nobody has been able to come close to when you consider all of his games. One thing someone else pointed out and I will repeat is that AP was pulled early in a lot of games. You could potentially calculate 1/4 of his overall production and then add it to his numbers, which would put him at almost 11,500 rushing yards. I don't know if I ever put up that many yards with my RB on NCAA Football as a child.

[blueballs]

I actually saw Adrian Peterson and Brian Westbrook play in person, on the same field, against pretty much the same defense, and in my mind there is no comparison. Brian Westbrook is a better player than GSU's Adrian Peterson. Peterson had the advantage of having much better personnel surrounding him. I actually thought Revere was a more dangerous weapon on the 97 GSU team than Peterson. Anyone who makes this decision solely on statistics is ignoring the reality that this is a team game and the guy on the better team will get the better statistics.

Also, don't give me the Payton argument. As 2007 demonbstrated this is totally political. When a decent but not exceptional UNI quarterback can come in second for the Payton and Joe flacco isn't even on the ballot, then something is wrong.

The NFL performance simply confirms what anyone who saw BOTH players in person could assess. Brian Westbrool was the better player.

For my vote for best FCS player my vote goes to Jerry Rice. I saw John Taylor in college and for him to be the # 2 receiver to anyone blows me away. (not to mention Jerry's stats @ his alma Mater.

Peterson was a RS in 1997 and didn't travel with the team, perhaps you're thinking of Roderick Russell?

Peterson only graced the field at the Tub once, and hung 197 on a very good UD team in the 2000 semifinals. Peterson's only other appearance against UD came at Paulson in 2001 in which he had about 130 in just over 2 quarters of work.

In my mind all this is moot because you'll have a very hard time finding anybody who has seen GSU football from day one who will tell you anybody but Tracy Ham is the best ever for the Eagles. What Ham accomplished will never be duplicated again, it was truly a miracle.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I agree with the above and anyone who says I agreed with a Nova fan, I will shoot after dark!!!;););)

As I stated above I think that Jerry Rice was the Best FCS player ever. I also said that I believed that Westbrook was superior to Peterson based on my observations of both on game day at Delaware Stadium. ( I also think Napoleon McCallum was better than Peterson).

All that being said, I will probably have to spend another 10 years in purgatory for my support of a Nova Player. (Catholic reference) I will deal with that later. xnodx

What was that line from a movie when IIRC Robert Loggia was told he'd be going to Hades, something like "well, I'll be among friends"!!!! xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Of course, we can rely on the Irish prayer, may you be in heaven thirty minutes before the devil knows you're dead!!!

[smallcollegefbfan]

Peterson was a RS in 1997 and didn't travel with the team, perhaps you're thinking of Roderick Russell?

Peterson only graced the field at the Tub once, and hung 197 on a very good UD team in the 2000 semifinals. Peterson's only other appearance against UD came at Paulson in 2001 in which he had about 130 in just over 2 quarters of work.

In my mind all this is moot because you'll have a very hard time finding anybody who has seen GSU football from day one who will tell you anybody but Tracy Ham is the best ever for the Eagles. What Ham accomplished will never be duplicated again, it was truly a miracle.

I was going to say because I did not think that AP played in 96.

Funny you mention Ham because I heard he was the best GSU player ever but I never saw him live or on any type of film when he played. I have only seen highlights. I think anyone who talks about a player they never saw more than highlights of while they played really does not know how how good they truly were so I can't really comment on him.

I was thinking about media members who could be a good judge of it and I am sure that David Coulson is the best out there due to being around longer than anyone else. He came in the early 90s so I know he never saw Ham live but I believe he saw all of the other names mentioned during their careers. There is no other media person who has covered it as long as Mr. C so I would be curious to see who he would select.

Based on what others have said I am going to guess that the consensus top 6 I-AA/FCS players, in no particular order, would be Rice, AP, Ham, Coakley, Moss, or Westbrook.

[CornCobPipes]

Hands down would have to be Steve McNair -- Alcorn State

[JDC325]

That is very sad they don't include those. I really think AP saved most of his best performances for the playoffs when you think about "the run" and the "son of the run", etc. Absolutely sick!

You are correct AP did not amass numbers just against the sisters of the poor in the SoCon and weak OOC teams. There was no real drop off against the better teams in fact The Citadel usually gave him the toughest games from what I remember. Also what some folks forget when GSU was rolling when AP was there he and the other starters were pulled as early as the third quarter. I dont think the same can be said for Westbrook, or the others. Point being his numbers could have been a lot sicker than what they allready are. Also fair or not AP greatist hits come from playoff and championship games so the there is solid real evidence for AP in the biggest games no excuses on how it the rest of the team let him down blah blah.

[bleedblue]

Tough comparison between AP and B-West as far as RB is concerned. However if I had to choose one to be on my team, I can't believe I'm gonna say this about a Nova guy, I would choose B-West because of everything else he could do (vomit). AP is great but he was not gonna kill you in the passing game and he was not going to return kickoffs and punts for TD's. I understand AP was not asked to do those things but the facts are the facts. BW did it all, offensively. Even though GSU beat up on UD I loved to watch that offense and what Paul Johnson could do. So much so I followed PJ's career to Navy and now GT. As far as BW or Andy Talley, well enough said. B-West ran all over, and I mean all over, UD and now he runs all over my cowboys. Hatem! Always thought AP would be better in NFL. For me, hands down B-West would be the one I would want.

[CornCobPipes]

My first choice no doubt about it is Steve McNair as stated in previous post.

But if your going to make a top 10 whatever list well I could list many.

Worthy of a top list but not the best I would include: Westbrook, Jerry Rice, , Adrian Peterson, Dexter Coakley, John Settle, Randy Moss, Dino Hackett.

John Settle if he wasnt taken out of the game at half time so much could have emassed incredible yds as RB. He often times had nearly 200Yds rushing at half time.

Oh yeah should I leave out T.O. (Terrell Owens)

[UNHFan99]

i find it hard to believe that Ricky Santos and David are not being discussed more. Dave and Ricky also were pulled from alot of games early due to the scores and their stats still are towards the top. If coach mac would have actually played them every game all game i bet Ricky would have another 18 touchdowns and Dave another 10. Not that the other guys ran it up or anything its just too bad the UNH coaching staff has too much class to run it up. Dave would have broke the most consecutive games with 100 yards and touchdowns. but was told they only had one drive to do it against Iona. Then they were pulled after a 50 yard run.

[Model Citizen]

Former Davidson kicker Brad Smith went to California and put together a nice little website. It looks like he's a player.

http://collegefootballperformance.com/about/models.html

[blukeys]

i find it hard to believe that Ricky Santos and David are not being discussed more. Dave and Ricky also were pulled from alot of games early due to the scores and their stats still are towards the top. If coach mac would have actually played them every game all game i bet Ricky would have another 18 touchdowns and Dave another 10. Not that the other guys ran it up or anything its just too bad the UNH coaching staff has too much class to run it up. Dave would have broke the most consecutive games with 100 yards and touchdowns. but was told they only had one drive to do it against Iona. Then they were pulled after a 50 yard run.

Sorry, Ricky and David are great players but they were not even the best opponnent players at their position that I have seen from my position at Delaware Stadioum.

Mike Buck from Maine was a better QB in my opinion than Santos. Coulson from Hofstra was a better wideout than Ball. I can name anotther Hofstra wideout who in my opinion was better than David Ball but it is irrelevant. As good as David Ball was, he in no way was the best ever FCS player nor would I consider him the best ever FCS receiver when Jerry Rice is in that mix.

[blukeys]

Peterson was a RS in 1997 and didn't travel with the team, perhaps you're thinking of Roderick Russell?

Peterson only graced the field at the Tub once, and hung 197 on a very good UD team in the 2000 semifinals. Peterson's only other appearance against UD came at Paulson in 2001 in which he had about 130 in just over 2 quarters of work.

In my mind all this is moot because you'll have a very hard time finding anybody who has seen GSU football from day one who will tell you anybody but Tracy Ham is the best ever for the Eagles. What Ham accomplished will never be duplicated again, it was truly a miracle.

I saw AP in 2000 and Westbrook. That was the basis for my comparison. I give AP credit for getting the yards he should have gotten. Having seen both AP and Westbrook there is no comparison. Westbrook is better as a runner, pass receiver and at Nova he also returned punts and kickoffs. AP was a strictly between the tackles runner. AP set up the rest of the GSU offense, but he never scared me when he got the ball.

Westbrook However, could take the ball to the house anytime he touched it. Westbrook required the attnetion of 3 players everytime he took a handoff, caught a pass, caught a punt or kickoff. I never saw the same attentio paid to AP.

If your point is to say Tracy Ham is the best FCS player of all time then I am willing to listen to that argument. Sadly, I never got to see Tracy to play. I think he is deserving of consideration. But Adrian Peterson in my view was not even the best Running back, despite statistics to play in FCS. He does not even make my top 5 of all time running backs I have seen in my 50 years of watching FCS football.

[89Hen]

Dave and Ricky also were pulled from alot of games early due to the scores and their stats still are towards the top.
You've probably seen a lot more UNH games than I, but I have to question this. I just went into a random season (2004) and it would appear that the only game in which Santos came out was a 62-24 beating of Towson.

Santos was great, but he was no better than Flacco and I wouldn't suggest anyone name Flacco in this thread. xpeacex

[Eaglesrus]

I saw AP in 2000 and Westbrook. That was the basis for my comparison. I give AP credit for getting the yards he should have gotten. Having seen both AP and Westbrook there is no comparison. Westbrook is better as a runner, pass receiver and at Nova he also returned punts and kickoffs. AP was a strictly between the tackles runner. AP set up the rest of the GSU offense, but he never scared me when he got the ball.

Westbrook However, could take the ball to the house anytime he touched it. Westbrook required the attnetion of 3 players everytime he took a handoff, caught a pass, caught a punt or kickoff. I never saw the same attentio paid to AP.

If your point is to say Tracy Ham is the best FCS player of all time then I am willing to listen to that argument. Sadly, I never got to see Tracy to play. I think he is deserving of consideration. But Adrian Peterson in my view was not even the best Running back, despite statistics to play in FCS. He does not even make my top 5 of all time running backs I have seen in my 50 years of watching FCS football.

In view of the two statements that I bolded above I'm going to suggest that you look at the following again. If you don't think that AP could score except when he was following his blockers, or from anywhere on the field, then it's obvious that in your "50 years of watching FCS football" very little of it was spent watching AP. Again, I'm not one that is saying that he was better than Westbrook, but I admit to getting agitated when AP's abilities aren't given the respect they deserve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_ABmN-sMU

[JDC325]

I saw AP in 2000 and Westbrook. That was the basis for my comparison. I give AP credit for getting the yards he should have gotten. Having seen both AP and Westbrook there is no comparison. Westbrook is better as a runner, pass receiver and at Nova he also returned punts and kickoffs. AP was a strictly between the tackles runner. AP set up the rest of the GSU offense, but he never scared me when he got the ball.

Westbrook However, could take the ball to the house anytime he touched it. Westbrook required the attnetion of 3 players everytime he took a handoff, caught a pass, caught a punt or kickoff. I never saw the same attentio paid to AP.

If your point is to say Tracy Ham is the best FCS player of all time then I am willing to listen to that argument. Sadly, I never got to see Tracy to play. I think he is deserving of consideration. But Adrian Peterson in my view was not even the best Running back, despite statistics to play in FCS. He does not even make my top 5 of all time running backs I have seen in my 50 years of watching FCS football.

One game should not be the only basis and you are crazy if you think teams did not focus more than on guy on AP sometimes it was the only thing they focused on. AP could take it to the house as well ask Montana. Flat out Westbrook could not carry a team like AP did and fair or not AP got to prove his skills in a lot more bigger games against the best in the FCS. AP's resume is just more complete and so is his ring collection.

[smallcollegefbfan]

For those who might not know the numbers, here are the write-ups by TSN for Westbrook and Peterson in the Payton archives.

I did not realize this until researching it but AP finsihed in the top 3 for the Payton for 4 straight years. I knew he did it 3 but did not realize he had done it his entire career.

Westbrook's accomplishment is even more impressive than usual considering he had major knee surgery which kept him out of the 1999 season.

2001, Brian Westbrook, RB, Villanova
-- Westbrook concluded an incredible collegiate career with a brilliant senior season that included 1,603 rushing yards, 59 receptions, and 29 touchdowns for the Atlantic 10 quad-champions. Westbrook became the second Villanova player to win the Payton, and the program joined Idaho as the only schools with two winners of the Award. The Fort Washington, MD native led FCS with 2,823 all-purpose yards, just two years removed from major knee surgery that forced him to miss the 1999 season. Westbrook's 9,512 all-purpose yards are an NCAA all-divisions record, and his single-season all-purpose yard figures in 1998, 2000, and 2001 are the three-best totals in FCS history. Westbrook was selected in the third round of the 2002 NFL Draft by the Philadelphia Eagles, and is currently in his seventh pro season. Westbrook was selected to the Pro Bowl in 2004 and 2007.

1999, Adrian Peterson, RB, Georgia Southern
-- Peterson became the first Southern Conference player to win the Payton since Marshall's Michael Payton in 1992, and like his SoCon predecessor, led his team to a FCS National Championship. In only his sophomore season, the fullback put up eye-popping totals of 2,704 yards and 40 touchdowns, rushing for over 100 yards in all 15 games for the Eagles. Peterson bolted for 247 yards and three touchdowns on just 25 carries in a 59-24 championship game win over Youngstown State. The Alachua, FL native picked up 9,161 yards, 114 touchdowns, and two national titles in his career, and graduated as the NCAA FCS all-time leader with 6,559 regular season rushing yards. Peterson was selected in the sixth round of the 2002 NFL Draft by the Chicago Bears, and is currently in his seventh pro season.

[89Hen]

Flat out Westbrook could not carry a team like AP did... AP's resume is just more complete
xconfusedx Both are awesome but I have to question these.

AP = rushing yards
BW = rushing yards + receiving yards + return yards

AP's last two seasons he was #4 and #11 in rushing in the nation and was the second best RB in the SoCon (Ivory). xpeacex

[wideright82]

One game should not be the only basis and you are crazy if you think teams did not focus more than on guy on AP sometimes it was the only thing they focused on. AP could take it to the house as well ask Montana. Flat out Westbrook could not carry a team like AP did and fair or not AP got to prove his skills in a lot more bigger games against the best in the FCS. AP's resume is just more complete and so is his ring collection.



xeekxxoopsx

[grizband]

Sorry, Ricky and David are great players but they were not even the best opponnent players at their position that I have seen from my position at Delaware Stadioum.

Mike Buck from Maine was a better QB in my opinion than Santos. Coulson from Hofstra was a better wideout than Ball. I can name anotther Hofstra wideout who in my opinion was better than David Ball but it is irrelevant. As good as David Ball was, he in no way was the best ever FCS player nor would I consider him the best ever FCS receiver when Jerry Rice is in that mix.
This honor is reserved for Randy Moss anyway.... xeekx

[Hoyadestroya85]

Brian Westbrook was Villanova's team.. We had good quarterbacks.. but after Finneran graduated, Westbrook was not only our best runner, but our best receiver as well. Couple that with the fact that our offense was probably 70 percent pass, 30 percent run.. and the fact that Westbrook was never fully healthy during his time at Villanova. Brian Westbrook at Villanova looked like the second coming of Barry Sanders. There was and still is nothing that he couldn't do. Had he played strictly receiver, he'd be the best in the country. Had he run the ball more than he did.. his numbers would have been flat out ridiculous.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Why doesn't Brian Finneran get any love for best wide receiver in FCS history.. He is after all the only the only WR to win the Payton

[Native]

I cannot find all the stats but I think Steve averaged well over 400 total passing and rushing yards per game over a full four year college career, which would push him past 16,000 total yards and maybe even towards 20,000. xeekx

1991: ???? yards and TDs passing and rushing
1992: 3,541 yards and 29 touchdowns passing, ???? yards and 10 TDs rushing
1993: 3,000+ yards and 30 touchdowns passing, ???? yards and TDs rushing?
1994: Nearly 6,000 yards passing and rushing

Finally found another reference for Steve McNair's college football stats, from TSN:

16,823 Yards of College Career Total Offense!

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/misc/payton_history.htm#McNair

"... McNair set the college football world alight during the 1994 season. The Mt. Olive, MS native completed 356 of 612 passes for 5,377 yards and 47 touchdown passes, and led Alcorn to a SWAC title and NCAA playoff berth. McNair graduated with 14,496 career passing yards, 119 touchdowns and 16,823 career yards of total offense. Besides winning the Payton Award, [and despite a hamstring injury] McNair finished third in balloting for the Heisman Trophy...."

[eaglesrthe1]

I saw AP in 2000 and Westbrook. That was the basis for my comparison. I give AP credit for getting the yards he should have gotten. Having seen both AP and Westbrook there is no comparison. Westbrook is better as a runner, pass receiver and at Nova he also returned punts and kickoffs. AP was a strictly between the tackles runner. AP set up the rest of the GSU offense, but he never scared me when he got the ball.

Westbrook However, could take the ball to the house anytime he touched it. Westbrook required the attnetion of 3 players everytime he took a handoff, caught a pass, caught a punt or kickoff. I never saw the same attentio paid to AP.
If your point is to say Tracy Ham is the best FCS player of all time then I am willing to listen to that argument. Sadly, I never got to see Tracy to play. I think he is deserving of consideration. But Adrian Peterson in my view was not even the best Running back, despite statistics to play in FCS. He does not even make my top 5 of all time running backs I have seen in my 50 years of watching FCS football.


The question of who's the best is of course based on every-one's own valid opinions, so I'm not going to comment on that. However, during the four years that I saw AP hoofing it up and down the field, I saw plenty of teams that came with the game plan of simply conceding the game and focusing on breaking AP's 100yd/game streak. The longer the streak went, the more focus he drew.

I have never before... or since... seen such a strategy. I can't see how anybody could draw any more attention than that.

[wideright82]

Why doesn't Brian Finneran get any love for best wide receiver in FCS history.. He is after all the only the only WR to win the Payton

I was wondering the same thing. Probably gets lost in the shadows of Rice.

[GATA]

Apparently nobody was "scared" when Adrian Peterson touched the ball...even though he was putting up 100 yards a game like clockwork and crushing NCAA records...

...Brian Westbrook is a FANTASTIC football player, but he wasn't Adrian Peterson...it's really apples and oranges anyway. Jayson Foster v. Brian Westbrook would be a better comparison...they both played every position on the field plus drove the team bus to away games and handed out water on the sidelines.

[seantaylor]

Westbrook wasn't even in the same stratosphere as AP. The guy dominated every single opponent he ever played. Somebody post AP and Westbrook's stats versus the 1A teams they played.

[smallcollegefbfan]

In 2001, AP did not face a I-A opponent. His best game was 192 yards and 4 TDs against Savannah State in a 69-6 win.

In 2001, Westbrook did not face a I-A opponent either. His best game was 228 yards and 5 TDs in a 45-44 win against James Madison.

In 2000, AP ran for 152 yards and 1 TD against Georgia in a 29-7 loss.

In 2000, Westbrook ran for 46 yards against Rutgers in a 34-21 loss. His best game was 202 yards and 3 TDs against Maine.

For the record AP ran a 4.68 at the NFL Combine and Westbrook ran a 4.57 at the NFL Combine. AP only put up 14 reps of 225 though and Westbrook put up 26 or 27. I think AP was banged up when he worked out because he was much stronger than that based on what he did on the field.

[Hoyadestroya85]

FTR.. in the beginning of the 2000 season, the coaches were being very cautious with Westbrook as he was coming off of major knee surgery. You might remember that Westbrook's best game was against the famous "black hole" defense of maine. There was also a game in 98 (his sophomore year.. he should have won the Payton that year but the committee didn't have the balls to give it to two Villanova players in a row) against Buffalo where Westbrook had at least 5 touchdowns. If this discussion has anything to do with Professional performance.. then it would be no contest, When you consider the full body of work, Peterson wouldn't even be able to hold B-West's jock.

[phillyAPP]

FTR.. in the beginning of the 2000 season, the coaches were being very cautious with Westbrook as he was coming off of major knee surgery. You might remember that Westbrook's best game was against the famous "black hole" defense of maine. There was also a game in 98 (his sophomore year.. he should have won the Payton that year but the committee didn't have the balls to give it to two Villanova players in a row) against Buffalo where Westbrook had at least 5 touchdowns. If this discussion has anything to do with Professional performance.. then it would be no contest, When you consider the full body of work, Peterson wouldn't even be able to hold B-West's jock.


Westbrook is great at Villanova and THE E-A-G-L-E-S but inlife sometimes you get put intobetter situations alla BW. AP in Chicago is not the same system and results are totally different.

This is a no win arguement. except BW and AP were both EAGLES .

[JDC325]

xconfusedx Both are awesome but I have to question these.

AP = rushing yards
BW = rushing yards + receiving yards + return yards

AP's last two seasons he was #4 and #11 in rushing in the nation and was the second best RB in the SoCon (Ivory). xpeacex

He had injuries, turf toe if am remembering correctly, and after App became the first team to shut him out of 100 yards PJ was even quicker to pull him out of games we had in hand. FU was fighting for every win back then we were not. Who cares that AP did not return punts he did not have to. I am sure if he did his stats would be look a tad better as well. AP's accomplishments as a RB did not need extra duties to stand on their own or to win a Patyon. His stats are lower than what they should have been, did Westbrook get pulled out of many third and fourth quarters like AP was? Looking at the lack of Villanova's success I doubt it.

[Eaglesrus]

This is for anyone who has made comments to the effect that Westbrook meant more to his team than AP did to his. In 2000 Furman beat GSU 45 - 10, with Louis Ivory rushing for more than 300 yards. AP did not play in the game due to a hyper-extended elbow. He came back for the rest of the season (Elon to close the regular season and the playoffs). I'm sure everyone knows who won the national championship that year.

[GaSouthern]

Somebody needs to post the how many quarters of football AP was riding the pine in the 4th and sometimes 3rd quarters. He could have had MUCH bigger stats.

[wideright82]

How many Georgia Southern posters are going to talk about what could have been? And did one of you seriously say TURF TOE xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx TURF TOE?!?!?! Westbrook blew out his MFing knee!!! IF he returned punts, he didn't, face it. If he didn't ride the pine, he did. Sorry, he was clearly not the player that Westbrook was, or someone would have picked him up prior to the 6th round. I think those scouts have a slightly better grasp than some of the knuckle heads on this board. xtwocentsx

[89Hen]

He had injuries, turf toe if am remembering correctly, and after App became the first team to shut him out of 100 yards PJ was even quicker to pull him out of games we had in hand. FU was fighting for every win back then we were not. Who cares that AP did not return punts he did not have to. I am sure if he did his stats would be look a tad better as well. AP's accomplishments as a RB did not need extra duties to stand on their own or to win a Patyon. His stats are lower than what they should have been, did Westbrook get pulled out of many third and fourth quarters like AP was? Looking at the lack of Villanova's success I doubt it.
xconfusedx This isn't a discussion about who the best player ever had they not had an injury was. BTW, Westbrook had a partially torn ACL since his senior year in HS, fully tore it after the 1998 season, and missed 1999 after having surgury to fix it. So really, BW wins the injury discussion too! :p

[89Hen]

In 2000 Furman beat GSU 45 - 10, with Louis Ivory rushing for more than 300 yards.
You're referring to the best RB in the SoCon two years running? xwhistlex

[appfan2008]

Homer vote... Dexter Coakley

[Eaglesrus]

You're referring to the best RB in the SoCon two years running? xwhistlex

And your point is?

I have never said that AP was the best player ever in 1-AA/FCS, nor even that he was better than any other particular player. My comments in this thread have been in response to comments such as the following:

"I give AP credit for getting the yards he should have gotten............AP was a strictly between the tackles runner. AP set up the rest of the GSU offense, but he never scared me when he got the ball.

Westbrook However, could take the ball to the house anytime he touched it. Westbrook required the attnetion of 3 players everytime he took a handoff, caught a pass, caught a punt or kickoff. I never saw the same attentio paid to AP."

There have been far too many great players performing in too many different ways, and I've seen far too few of them, for me to make such a call, but I will respond when someone belittles AP's performance and the effect he had on the games he played for GSU.

[89Hen]

And your point is?

I have never said that AP was the best player ever in 1-AA/FCS, nor even that he was better than any other particular player. My comments in this thread have been in response to comments such as the following
Then you're the only GSU fan who hasn't. :p

But your post that I quoted sure implied you were. Maybe I inferred. xpeacex

[blueballs]

Now, now... I never stated that AP was the best player in the history of the division, or even at Georgia Southern. IMO both distinctions belong to Tracy Ham, who accomplished things that no other player in 1-AA/FCS has before or since given his circumstances.

As far as Westbrook vs. Peterson, I've seen a lot of posts that state this or that, but there's one thing that can't be disputed: the record while they were both collegians. Peterson set every meaningful rushing record, every meaningful scoring record, was the MVP on two NC teams, and left a legacy of huge signature plays that everybody here can recite by heart. He was the only player in the history of the division to be a finalist for the Payton Award for four years. He was covered weekly by College Football Live on ESPN as he broke the streak and set the all time yardage mark. He was the bell cow of the division. The numbers say he was unparalleled and the numbers also say he did it against the best time and again.

Here's the litmus test... legacy. Peterson is w/o question a lock to get into the college football HOF, nobody can argue that. Can you honestly say the same about Westbrook?

[89Hen]

The numbers say he was unparalleled and the numbers also say he did it against the best time and again.

Here's the litmus test... legacy. Peterson is w/o question a lock to get into the college football HOF, nobody can argue that. Can you honestly say the same about Westbrook?
Except for the two years when he wasn't even the best back in the SoCon.

AP is a lock for college HOF
BW is a lock for college HOF

xnodx xpeacex

[wideright82]

Now, now... I never stated that AP was the best player in the history of the division, or even at Georgia Southern. IMO both distinctions belong to Tracy Ham, who accomplished things that no other player in 1-AA/FCS has before or since given his circumstances.

As far as Westbrook vs. Peterson, I've seen a lot of posts that state this or that, but there's one thing that can't be disputed: the record while they were both collegians. Peterson set every meaningful rushing record, every meaningful scoring record, was the MVP on two NC teams, and left a legacy of huge signature plays that everybody here can recite by heart. He was the only player in the history of the division to be a finalist for the Payton Award for four years. He was covered weekly by College Football Live on ESPN as he broke the streak and set the all time yardage mark. He was the bell cow of the division. The numbers say he was unparalleled and the numbers also say he did it against the best time and again.

Here's the litmus test... legacy. Peterson is w/o question a lock to get into the college football HOF, nobody can argue that. Can you honestly say the same about Westbrook?




Though he battled through several injuries, he holds the all-time NCAA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Collegiate_Athletic_Association) record with 9,512 all-purpose yards, breaking the 9,301 yards accumulated by Brian Shay of Emporia State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emporia_State_University). In 46 career games, he scored 542 points with 84 touchdowns, carried the ball 725 times for 4,298 yards (6.2 avg.), caught 219 passes for 2,582 yards (11.79 avg.) and gained 2,289 yards and four touchdowns on kickoff returns. Along the way, he established 41 school, 13 Atlantic Ten Conference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ten_Conference) and five NCAA records.
Westbrook became the only player in I-AA history to score 160 or more points twice in a career and the first player in the history of college football at any level with 1,000 rushing and 1,000 receiving yards in one season (1998). He is one of only two players in Villanova history to rush for over 1,000 yards in a season and he accomplished that feat three times.



I'm gonna go ahead and say, yes, he will be in the HOF.


Also probably the NFL Hall of Fame.

[Eaglesrus]

Then you're the only GSU fan who hasn't. :p

But your post that I quoted sure implied you were. Maybe I inferred. xpeacex

The intended point of my post was how much AP meant to the success of the team and that you couldn't have just stuck any running back in there and had the same results just because of the offense we ran. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, but I realize that the writer's intent often differs fom the message received on messageboards and in e-mails so no harm - no foul.

[GaSouthern]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_ABmN-sMU

[GaSouthern]

This thread needs a poll!

[andy7171]

Dave Meggett

[phillyAPP]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_ABmN-sMU


great reasons to like AP:

1- He graduated
2- He only scored once against APP in the video !
3- He played with heart.
4- He didn't celebrate like an idiot when he scored
5- He seemed above the talent level of opponents
6- He won Championships

Not bad for an All-Time MVP of FCS.

AE's highlights are pretty good also.

[813Jag]

I cannot find all the stats but I think Steve averaged well over 400 total passing and rushing yards per game over a full four year college career, which would push him past 16,000 total yards and maybe even towards 20,000. xeekx

1991: ???? yards and TDs passing and rushing
1992: 3,541 yards and 29 touchdowns passing, ???? yards and 10 TDs rushing
1993: 3,000+ yards and 30 touchdowns passing, ???? yards and TDs rushing?
1994: Nearly 6,000 yards passing and rushing
Having witnessed McNair in person, the numbers don't tell the whole story of the impact he made on a game. I've witnessed this guy scramble around the pocket and throw a dart down field to an open receiver. And he was tough to bring down in open field. I was happy to see Southern get that one win they got over him. With a smarter coaching staff Alcorn would have been a tougher out in the playoffs.

[parr90]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_ABmN-sMU

Damn.......he was the best Ive seen in college.

[GAD]

Having witnessed McNair in person, the numbers don't tell the whole story of the impact he made on a game. I've witnessed this guy scramble around the pocket and throw a dart down field to an open receiver. And he was tough to bring down in open field. I was happy to see Southern get that one win they got over him. With a smarter coaching staff Alcorn would have been a tougher out in the playoffs.
I remember watching him break like 8 tackles on one play.

[bleedblue]

All right you've convinced me. It's AP over BW. It was physically hurting me to vote for a Nova guy anyway.

[wideright82]

All right you've convinced me. It's AP over BW. It was physically hurting me to vote for a Nova guy anyway.


xlolx xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[wideright82]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxKbTNucbzA&feature=PlayList&p=09EC66A9414FD7E7&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=28



and if I could actually find a college highlight tape I would xlolxxlolxxlolx

[Hoyadestroya85]

yeah.. its a shame there are no highlights of westbrook.. because he had plays that were similar to "the run"

[GaSouthern]

yeah.. its a shame there are no highlights of westbrook.. because he had plays that were similar to "the run"

Exactly, he had no highlights to speak of, that is why AP gets the easy edge!xthumbsupx



(j/k)

PS: AP averaged 160 yards a game!

[Syntax Error]

... he had plays that were similar to "the run"Look at THE RUN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftVLoFWZA7s) and SON OF THE RUN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnzHhcvLd0) - then see what games in which they were done. That, to me, is a huge reason AP has the legacy he does. Sort of like Michael Jordan... big game, crunch time, give him the damn ball and he will deliver.

[grizband]

Look at THE RUN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftVLoFWZA7s) and SON OF THE RUN (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnzHhcvLd0) - then see what games in which they were done. That, to me, is a huge reason AP has the legacy he does. Sort of like Michael Jordan... big game, crunch time, give him the damn ball and he will deliver.
This is another reason I like Dave Dickensen. He thrived in big games, starting with a 25+ point comeback with in his first game as a sophomore.

[NSUSPARTAN]

Rashan Mathis Bethune-cookman

[smallcollegefbfan]

Rashan Mathis Bethune-cookman

Rashean Mathis was a stud, no doubt. I am surprised nobody has mentioned him. I would say he is probably the 2nd best defensive player I have seen behind Dexter Coakley.

[UncleSam]

Exactly, he had no highlights to speak of, that is why AP gets the easy edge!xthumbsupx

PS: AP averaged 160 yards a game!

Why, then with ALL that supposed super talent.. is it that AP can't get off the bench in the NFL??? Meanwhile Brian Westbrook is an All-Pro and considered one of the most dangerous players in the league.

I think that pretty much says it all when comparing the football abilities of Westbrook and AP.

[CrunchGriz]

This is another reason I like Dave Dickensen. He thrived in big games, starting with a 25+ point comeback with in his first game as a sophomore.

Actually, he was put in the game against South Dakota State with the Griz down 38-7, and he rallied them to a 52-48 win with his fourth touchdown pass with 21 seconds left.

As the Griz huddle assembled for the first time around DD in this game, he famously said, "Anyone who doesn't think we can win this game--get out of this huddle right now!"

At the time it was the biggest comeback in I-AA history.

The next week he was again brought on in relief with the Griz down 28-7 to Oregon, and he nearly rallied Montana to a win, narrowly falling 35-30. After watching DD repeatedly bob and weave to avoid Duck defenders and then throw strikes, Duck coach Rich Brooks asked Griz coach Don Read, "Where'd you get that Houdini?".

[TheMinuteman]

Brian Westbrook would be my pick

[grizband]

Actually, he was put in the game against South Dakota State with the Griz down 38-7, and he rallied them to a 52-48 win with his fourth touchdown pass with 21 seconds left.

As the Griz huddle assembled for the first time around DD in this game, he famously said, "Anyone who doesn't think we can win this game--get out of this huddle right now!"

At the time it was the biggest comeback in I-AA history.

The next week he was again brought on in relief with the Griz down 28-7 to Oregon, and he nearly rallied Montana to a win, narrowly falling 35-30. After watching DD repeatedly bob and weave to avoid Duck defenders and then throw strikes, Duck coach Rich Brooks asked Griz coach Don Read, "Where'd you get that Houdini?".
Thanks for filling in the details, Crunch, this was before my time and I couldn't remember the exact situation or spread when Super Dave came into the game.

[Eaglesrus]

Why, then with ALL that supposed super talent.. is it that AP can't get off the bench in the NFL??? Meanwhile Brian Westbrook is an All-Pro and considered one of the most dangerous players in the league.

I think that pretty much says it all when comparing the football abilities of Westbrook and AP.


AP was the better college player and Westbrook is the better NFL player for one reason... speed. Peterson was a 4.6 or 4.7 guy while Westbrook was a 4.4, I believe.

A player can be very good at this level and be slow by the NFL standard such as AP. Many of the things AP got away with here you can't do in the NFL. For example, when he played Youngstown State in the title game look at all of the broken tackles and that just doesn't happen in the NFL. AP could be caught easily in college but being tackled was a whole different story. Maybe a GSU fan can correct me but it was rumored he had a 600 pound squat and 400-450 bench. That is almost superhuman for a man his size.

AP was so much stronger, ran harder, and was tougher than anyone else thus making him so dominate. That still doesn't take away from the fact that he was the best RB in FCS history, in my mind.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Westbrook being better in the NFL and AP being better in the college. Both are making paychecks in the NFL and both were great college backs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftVLoFWZA7s&feature=related "the run"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnzHhcvLd0 "son of the run"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp_ABmN-sMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhIO8sSeVoM

I think SCFBF answered your question earlier

[Syntax Error]

Why, then with ALL that supposed super talent.. is it that AP can't get off the bench in the NFL???Uh, AP leads the Bears yearly in yards per carry, special teams tackles, etc. Can't do that when glued to the bench. Besides the topic is "Best I-AA/FCS Player Ever?" not which NFL team utilizes its talent more. The bonehead Bears ... don't get me started. Look at the last Super Bowl the Bears were in. Who made the first tackle? etc.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Uh, AP leads the Bears yearly in yards per carry, special teams tackles, etc. Can't do that when glued to the bench. Besides the topic is "Best I-AA/FCS Player Ever?" not which NFL team utilizes its talent more. The bonehead Bears ... don't get me started. Look at the last Super Bowl the Bears were in. Who made the first tackle? etc.

Brian Westbrook has scored a touchdown in the super bowl and before he became the starter he was possibly the most dangerous punt returner in the game.

[Native]

Steve McNair: 16,823 college career yards of total offense (TSN)

Brian Westbrook: 9,512 college career all-purpose yards (Wikipedia)

Adrian Peterson: 9,145 college career all-purpose yards (Wikipedia)

[Syntax Error]

Brian Westbrook has scored a touchdown in the super bowl and before he became the starter he was possibly the most dangerous punt returner in the game.
Just saying that AP (http://www.chicagobears.com/team/player66.html) was a better college runningback (not by a lot). BW is in the mix for sure, like Amerson etc.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Peterson was the product of a system! Name me a flexbone fullback who has had a crappy season? You can't.. Dwyer was one of the nations leaders in rushing this year. Eric Kettani was a beast. Remember Colin Moody from Army? Complete scrub lead blocker before this year, but then he sets the school record for rushing yards. The point of the option is to confuse people, so all they had to do was run a quick option with one of the slot backs for a decent gain and that would take a little attention off of peterson. Brian Westbrook was Villanova's offense. All we have to say is, Who won the Payton award their Senior year?

[uni88]

Tracy Ham because of the miracle that was Georgia Southern football in the mid 80's. He and Coach Russell took a dormant program and led it to 2 national titles in 5 years on a shoestring budget and a team full of walkons.

Ham did the most with the least around him in 1985 than any player in the history of the division.

For every one of the players mentioned so far I would ask the question, could Ham have done what (insert player's name here) did in his situation and could (insert player's name here) have done what Ham did in HIS situation? When you answer that question you'll know why Ham was the best.

I'm with blueballs on this one.

[jstate83]

i have no problem with McNair as an answer too. never saw him play in college but the numbers are sick.

I saw that mofo up close and personal and he made me sick 4 years in a row.xlolx

[Syntax Error]

Peterson was the product of a system! Name me a flexbone fullback who has had a crappy season? You can't.. Dwyer was one of the nations leaders in rushing this year. Eric Kettani was a beast. Remember Colin Moody from Army? Complete scrub lead blocker before this year, but then he sets the school record for rushing yards. The point of the option is to confuse people, so all they had to do was run a quick option with one of the slot backs for a decent gain and that would take a little attention off of peterson. Brian Westbrook was Villanova's offense. All we have to say is, Who won the Payton award their Senior year? Dude, you are so out of line. A flexbone fb with a bad season? There are so many. You cite FBS junk, so what?

"Who won the Payton award their Senior year?"
Uh, not Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, Rich Gannon, Kurt Warner, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Native]

... All we have to say is, Who won the Payton award their Senior year?

Steve McNair won the Payton his senior year.

Steve was also a finalist for the Heisman and might have won it if not for late season injury.

McNair also neary doubled Westbrook's (and Peterson's) college career yardage totals, more than doubled Tracy Ham's college career passing and rushing yardage totals, frequently carried the Alcorn team on his shoulders, and would have been the most impactful player on just about any other college team he could have played on (which is all of 'em, since he was recruited nationwide by both FCS and FBS programs).

Like both Brian Westbrook and Adrian Peterson, McNair's college career was more than validated by his pro career, he was a double threat in college (and the pros) who could beat you more ways than one, and he almost always found a way to win.

Perhaps most importantly, like Walter Payton himself, Steve McNair was and is a classy prince of a man who shows us all by his daily actions how to be better athletes and human beings.

I would not say one bad thing about BW, AP or TH to make Steve look better, because Westbrook, Peterson and Ham are ALL awesome athetes who deserve the great things said about them.

I simply note that anything great you say about Westbrook, Peterson, Ham, or any other candidate, can be said with equal or greater fervor and veracity about Steve McNair.

[JagHammer]

Steve McNair won the Payton his senior year.

Steve was also a finalist for the Heisman and might have won it if not for late season injury.

McNair also neary doubled Westbrook's (and Peterson's) college career yardage totals, more than doubled Tracy Ham's college career passing and rushing yardage totals, frequently carried the Alcorn team on his shoulders, and would have been the most impactful player on just about any other college team he could have played on (which is all of 'em, since he was recruited nationwide by both FCS and FBS programs).

Like both Brian Westbrook and Adrian Peterson, McNair's college career was more than validated by his pro career, he was a double threat in college (and the pros) who could beat you more ways than one, and he almost always found a way to win.

Perhaps most importantly, like Walter Payton himself, Steve McNair was and is a classy prince of a man who shows us all by his daily actions how to be better athletes and human beings.

I would not say one bad thing about BW, AP or TH to make Steve look better, because Westbrook, Peterson and Ham are ALL awesome athetes who deserve the great things said about them.

I simply note that anything great you say about Westbrook, Peterson, Ham, or any other candidate, can be said with equal or greater fervor and veracity about Steve McNair.

I agree with you on Steve McNair. It didn't matter where or who you were, you could not deny the impact that he left on BCF and 1-AA football when he left the scene. His impact was so strong, Alcorn has not tasted a championship since he was drafted in the pros. However, I believe the title to best 1AA football player goes to Jerry Rice. He put Mississippi Valley on the map.

[89Hen]

Jerry Rice. He put Mississippi Valley on the map.
Not denying how great Rice was, but MVSU on the map? No offense to the Delta Devils, but they haven't won more than 7 games in a season since 1985, they average 5000 fans per game, they haven't really threatened for a SWAC title, have they? If he put them on the map while he was there, they immediately found their way off the map when he left. xpeacex

[Native]

I agree with you on Steve McNair. It didn't matter where or who you were, you could not deny the impact that he left on BCF and 1-AA football when he left the scene. His impact was so strong, Alcorn has not tasted a championship since he was drafted in the pros. However, I believe the title to best 1AA football player goes to Jerry Rice. He put Mississippi Valley on the map.

Jerry Rice is also a stand up guy. xnodx

[89Hen]

Steve McNair: 16,823 college career yards of total offense (TSN)

Brian Westbrook: 9,512 college career all-purpose yards (Wikipedia)

Adrian Peterson: 9,145 college career all-purpose yards (Wikipedia)
McNair defintely needs to be in the voting for top spot but that's a deceiving stat IMO. First off, passing yards are very different from yards where YOU are carrying the ball. I know McNair has quite a few rushing yards for a QB, but most of his numbers were passing.

But more importantly, BW and AP played fairly comparable competition. McNair led Alcorn to the I-AA playoffs in 1992 with a 7-3 record. ALL three losses were to teams not in the SWAC:

Howard 48 - Alcorn 42
Sam Houston 28 - Alcorn 27
Jacksonville State 59 - Alcorn 45

Howard and SHSU were not playoff teams and JSU was still DII (although a very good DII). Once in the playoffs...

La-Monroe 78 - Alcorn 27

For comparison sake, the next week Delaware went down to La-Monroe and beat them 41-18. Villanova and GSU were playing teams like Delaware all year.

McNair would have been a great QB anywhere he played, but there is NO WAY he would have put up those kind of numbers anywhere he played. xpeacex

[Native]

McNair defintely needs to be in the voting for top spot but that's a deceiving stat IMO. First off, passing yards are very different from yards where YOU are carrying the ball. I know McNair has quite a few rushing yards for a QB, but most of his numbers were passing.

But more importantly, BW and AP played fairly comparable competition. McNair led Alcorn to the I-AA playoffs in 1992 with a 7-3 record. ALL three losses were to teams not in the SWAC:

Howard 48 - Alcorn 42
Sam Houston 28 - Alcorn 27
Jacksonville State 59 - Alcorn 45

Howard and SHSU were not playoff teams and JSU was still DII (although a very good DII). Once in the playoffs...

La-Monroe 78 - Alcorn 27

For comparison sake, the next week Delaware went down to La-Monroe and beat them 41-18. Villanova and GSU were playing teams like Delaware all year.

McNair would have been a great QB anywhere he played, but there is NO WAY he would have put up those kind of numbers anywhere he played. xpeacex

Points well taken, my well-researched friend, but your argument cuts both ways. It shows how very far Steve carried his team on his own shoulders. Imagine how well McNair could have performed with more of a team to support his talents!

McNair could have played somewhere else, garnered only two thirds of the yards he made at Alcorn, and still been one of the greatest players of all time! For all we know, with other players for opposing defenses to key on, McNair might have accumulated even more yardage and probably would have won even more games.

Imagine McNair as the QB on AP's team or BW's team, or one of the running backs playing for Alcorn.

[813Jag]

I saw that mofo up close and personal and he made me sick 4 years in a row.xlolx
I had the same feelings watching him, getting him off the field was almost as good as seeing your team score a TD. That 94 SU/ASU game in Lorman was classic.

[89Hen]

Imagine how well McNair could have performed with more of a team to support his talents!

Imagine McNair as the QB on AP's team or BW's team, or one of the running backs playing for Alcorn.
He would have been great anywhere, but he wouldn't have put up those numbers anywhere. However, McNair on AP's team wouldn't have really worked. One of them would have been extremely short-changed. and AP's team was built for running, not passing. McNair + Westbrook would have been a better combo.

[JagHammer]

Not denying how great Rice was, but MVSU on the map? No offense to the Delta Devils, but they haven't won more than 7 games in a season since 1985, they average 5000 fans per game, they haven't really threatened for a SWAC title, have they? If he put them on the map while he was there, they immediately found their way off the map when he left. xpeacex

What I mean put on the map, is that Jerry Rice brought attention to the school, where it is very difficult to recruit, let alone field a decent team.

[Skjellyfetti]

Steve was also a finalist for the Heisman and might have won it if not for late season injury.

No way in hell he would have won it.

[GaSouthern]

Adrian Peterson got alot of attention in the heisman as well but again, no way he had a chance when it finally came down to it.

Armanti Edwards also was getting some heisman attention after they beat Mich.

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

Best Combo: Santos to Ball

[Houndawg]

Walter Payton never played I-AA. xpeacex

Walter Payton was the best football player ever in any division.xnodx

[phillyAPP]

Walter Payton was the best football player ever in any division.xnodx


I ditto that !!!xnodxxnodxxnodxxnodxxnodxxnodxxnodxxnodxxnodx

[Native]

No way in hell he would have won it.

Of course we will never know what might have been, but McNair's Heisman competitors in 1994, Rashaan Salaam and Ki-Jana Carter, were not unbeatable.

Steve garnered only 4 fewer 1st place votes than did Carter. If he had been healthy, able to direct Alcorn to a couple of playoff victories, and stay in the limelight for 2-3 more weeks, anything could have been possible.

[89Hen]

Walter Payton was the best football player ever in any division.xnodx
May be, but that's not the question before us.

BTW, I could make a case for Hershel Walker.

[bluehenbillk]

The 3 best I saw were in no specific order:

Randy Moss
Adrian Peterson
Brain Westbrook

[Hoyadestroya85]

Dude, you are so out of line. A flexbone fb with a bad season? There are so many. You cite FBS junk, so what?

"Who won the Payton award their Senior year?"
Uh, not Walter Payton, Jerry Rice, Rich Gannon, Kurt Warner, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

By their I was referring to Brian Westbrook and Adrian Peterson. Give me a flexbone fullback whos had a crappy season behind a decent line and i'll retract my statement.. Revere was flat out dirty.. he doesn't get any mention.

[Navy Dog]

Not sure if this is a contest of how a player did in college, pros, or both. However, if we're talking college only, my "homer pick" is Citadel QB Jack Douglas. Tons of wins, an end of regular season #1 ranking (1992), SOCON conference champ (second in school history), D-1 QB rushing yardage king at the time of his graduation AND he QB'd his teams to four victories over D1-A competition (So Carolina, Arkansas, Army, and Navy). Not a bad four-years work if you ask me. xbowx

Bi-line from a newspaper article regarding his induction into the SC Athletic HOF:

Douglas was the quarterback for the last Citadel team to win a Southern Conference championship, the 1992 Bulldogs. At that time coached by Charlie Taaffe they went 11-2 and were ranked No. 1 in the nation in Division I-AA during the season. Running the wishbone offense, Douglas finished his career as the leading rushing quarterback in NCAA Division I history, with 3,674 yards. He still ranks No. 1 in Citadel history in total yards (6,737) and career scoring (50 touchdowns for 300 points), and led the Bulldogs to memorable upsets of Navy, South Carolina, Arkansas, and Army.

[blueballs]

By their I was referring to Brian Westbrook and Adrian Peterson. Give me a flexbone fullback whos had a crappy season behind a decent line and i'll retract my statement.. Revere was flat out dirty.. he doesn't get any mention.

Revere was an underrated player and a very strong leader. He had to have his knee scoped about halfway through his SR (2001) season and though he played he was not the same player and GSU was not the same team after his knee injury.

He was not, hovever, in Greg Hill's class, who was the QB Peterson's first two seasons at GSU.

Folks forget- heck, has it been 10 years already?- that Hill was the SoCon POTY the year Peterson won the Payton. If not for the one game case of fumblitis Hill had in the 1998 NC game he would have QB'ed a team to a 15-0 record and consecutive NC's. He was REALLY good as an option QB, not Tracy Ham good, but damned good.

GSU's offense in 1998/1999 was just ridiculous with Hill and Peterson in the backfield. The 1999 version was one of the best offenses in the history of the division, averaging 50 ppg and 450/gm rushing over the 15 game run. I know this sounds like an exaggeration but the GSU folks will back me up- there were a few games where that group could have easily had 90+ points if Paul Johnson had let them.

GSU had some great slotbacks during that era too... Bennie Cunningham and Mark Myers were as fast as anybody in the division, Andre Weathers was a leader, big game player and a homerun threat, Zzream Walden was just a winner, and Charrard Freeman was a deadly blocker.

I concur to an extent with the post about Jack Douglas. He was a very underrated player for El Cid and perhaps the best player in the SoCon during his tenure. That guy was a winner.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

McNair defintely needs to be in the voting for top spot but that's a deceiving stat IMO. First off, passing yards are very different from yards where YOU are carrying the ball. I know McNair has quite a few rushing yards for a QB, but most of his numbers were passing.

But more importantly, BW and AP played fairly comparable competition. McNair led Alcorn to the I-AA playoffs in 1992 with a 7-3 record. ALL three losses were to teams not in the SWAC:

Howard 48 - Alcorn 42
Sam Houston 28 - Alcorn 27
Jacksonville State 59 - Alcorn 45

Howard and SHSU were not playoff teams and JSU was still DII (although a very good DII). Once in the playoffs...

La-Monroe 78 - Alcorn 27

For comparison sake, the next week Delaware went down to La-Monroe and beat them 41-18. Villanova and GSU were playing teams like Delaware all year.

McNair would have been a great QB anywhere he played, but there is NO WAY he would have put up those kind of numbers anywhere he played. xpeacex

Alcorn had plenty of talent, look how many of McNair's teamates got drafted. Alcorn didnt have a coach, plan and simple. The SWAC back then was a man to man conference. Every team in the conference played man exclusively , except Southern. Thats part of the reason the SWAC struggled in the playoffs, because the SWAC had way more talent than any other conference back then.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Alcorn had plenty of talent, look how many of McNair's teamates got drafted. Alcorn didnt have a coach, plan and simple. The SWAC back then was a man to man conference. Every team in the conference played man exclusively , except Southern. Thats part of the reason the SWAC struggled in the playoffs, because the SWAC had way more talent than any other conference back then.

How can a league struggle because it has more talent? The leagues with the most talent top to bottom are the ones who have done the best throughout FCS history such as the SoCon, CAA, Big Sky, and Gateway/MVC.

Now I will give you credit if you say the SWAC has more UNCOACHED talent than any other league. Many of the SWAC teams are not as well coached in terms of technique, scheme, and strength training. There are 3-4 players in the SWAC right now that I think would get drafted if they were playing for a CAA or SoCon team. It seems that the only player from the SWAC with any shot at getting drafted is WR Juamorris Stewart of Southern but is a late round projection, as of now.

[Native]

How can a league struggle because it has more talent? The leagues with the most talent top to bottom are the ones who have done the best throughout FCS history such as the SoCon, CAA, Big Sky, and Gateway/MVC.

Now I will give you credit if you say the SWAC has more UNCOACHED talent than any other league. Many of the SWAC teams are not as well coached in terms of technique, scheme, and strength training. There are 3-4 players in the SWAC right now that I think would get drafted if they were playing for a CAA or SoCon team. It seems that the only player from the SWAC with any shot at getting drafted is WR Juamorris Stewart of Southern but is a late round projection, as of now.

One problem at Alcorn has been that the food was heavy in carbs and light on protein, making it hard to properly prepare in the weight room.

Don't forget that Alcorn LB Lee Robinson got picked up this year as a free agent, even though Alcorn sucked as a team, due largely, as SUjagTILLiDIE stated, to poor coaching.

[smallcollegefbfan]

One problem at Alcorn has been that the food was heavy in carbs and light on protein.

DOn't forget that LB Lee Robinson got picked up this year as a free agent.

I am talking about the 2010 draft. According to my sources Stewart is a possible combine invite. Robinson is a player that I thought was better as a junior than senior. I really liked his speed as a junior and thought he could be a late round pick but he was slower, stiff, and didn't show the FBI that I was hoping to see out of him.

[Native]

I am talking about the 2010 draft. According to my sources Stewart is a possible combine invite. Robinson is a player that I thought was better as a junior than senior. I really liked his speed as a junior and thought he could be a late round pick but he was slower, stiff, and didn't show the FBI that I was hoping to see out of him.

Don't know what heppened to Robinson. Something similar happened to WR Charlie Spiller, who had a brilliant junior season and still holds some Alcorn receiving records. Charlie got a little overconfident and let himself go prior to his senior year, until it was too late to recover. He is still mucking around as a free agent.

On the other hand, ASU WR Nate Hughes kept his nose to the grindstone, kept himself in shape, graduated, and signed with Cleveland. He now has a home with the Jaguars.

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

How can a league struggle because it has more talent? The leagues with the most talent top to bottom are the ones who have done the best throughout FCS history such as the SoCon, CAA, Big Sky, and Gateway/MVC.

Now I will give you credit if you say the SWAC has more UNCOACHED talent than any other league. Many of the SWAC teams are not as well coached in terms of technique, scheme, and strength training. There are 3-4 players in the SWAC right now that I think would get drafted if they were playing for a CAA or SoCon team. It seems that the only player from the SWAC with any shot at getting drafted is WR Juamorris Stewart of Southern but is a late round projection, as of now.

I was talking during McNair's days. Look at the draft picks during that time frame. They were just poorly coached.

[Houndawg]

May be, but that's not the question before us.

BTW, I could make a case for Hershel Walker.

A technicality. Walter Payton played FCS-level ball, whether there was a 1-AA or an FCS at the time or not. Like I said before, they call it the Walter Payton Award for a reason.

Herschel Walker was possibly a better runner than Walter Payton, but he wasn't a better football player. Everybody knows how well Payton could run, few know how well he could block. If he hadn't played for the sorriest team in the NFL there wouldn't be any doubt that he was the best ever.

[Native]

A technicality. Walter Payton played FCS-level ball, whether there was a 1-AA or an FCS at the time or not. Like I said before, they call it the Walter Payton Award for a reason.

Herschel Walker was possibly a better runner than Walter Payton, but he wasn't a better football player. Everybody knows how well Payton could run, few know how well he could block. If he hadn't played for the sorriest team in the NFL there wouldn't be any doubt that he was the best ever.

Great points about Walter Payton playing well off the ball and playing on a sorry pro team, but your other points are a little weaker, Houndawg.

In the first place, the 1-AA/FCS distinction has meaning, because many of the pre- I-AA SWAC teams played at a higher level with much better talent in the immediate aftermatch of the civil rights era, before the southern "elite" white teams started heavily recruiting black players. Also, many black players of the era remained loyal to HBCUs for quite some time.

In the second place, there is more than one Walter Payton award.

[Houndawg]

Great points about Walter Payton playing well off the ball and playing on a sorry pro team, but your other points are a little weaker, Houndawg.

In the first place, the 1-AA/FCS distinction has meaning, because many of the pre- I-AA SWAC teams played at a higher level with much better talent in the immediate aftermatch of the civil rights era, before the southern "elite" white teams started heavily recruiting black players. Also, many black players of the era remained loyal to HBCUs for quite some time.

In the second place, there is more than one Walter Payton award.

So why did they name the award after him?

[AshevilleApp2]

A technicality. Walter Payton played FCS-level ball, whether there was a 1-AA or an FCS at the time or not. Like I said before, they call it the Walter Payton Award for a reason.

Herschel Walker was possibly a better runner than Walter Payton, but he wasn't a better football player. Everybody knows how well Payton could run, few know how well he could block. If he hadn't played for the sorriest team in the NFL there wouldn't be any doubt that he was the best ever.

Walter Payton was a great player, no doubt about it. But the thread is for the best player in the 1-AA/FCS era. And about accomplishments as a college player, not as a pro. xpeacex

[89Hen]

A technicality. Walter Payton played FCS-level ball, whether there was a 1-AA or an FCS at the time or not. Like I said before, they call it the Walter Payton Award for a reason.
Before I-AA, the teams that now comprise I-AA were all over the map. Even after the formation in 1978, there were a lot of teams now in I-AA that were in I-A and DII.

The award wasn't named as such until 1987. By then JSU was a I-AA team with a long playoff record. Honestly, IMO it should have never been named after him since he never played I-AA ball. Same goes for Buck Buchanan who was even older than Payton. That said, I don't have a problem with either award being named such because both were great players.