Ivy League: past decade of ???

[aceinthehole]

Here are some FACTS on Ivy non-conference games for the past decade (10 seasons):

-Cornell has played only 3 non-PL opponents. The Big Red lost to Towson (CAA) and beat 2 NEC teams (Albany and Wagner).

-Harvard has played only 4 non-PL opponents. The Crimson are 3-1 vs Notheastern, playing all 4 games in Cambridge.

-Princeton has played just 4 non-PL opponents. The Tigers lost both games vs AQ-conference teams (Hampton and The Citidel) and are 2-0 vs. San Diego of the non-scholly Pioneer League.

-Columbia has played just 4 non-PL opponents. The Lions lost to Towson (CAA) and beat 3 former MAAC teams (Iona, Marist, and Duquesne).

-Yale has played 7 non-PL opponents. The Bulldogs are 5-2 vs. non-scholly Pioneer schools (2-0 vs. Dayton; 2-2 vs. San Diego; 1-0 vs. Valpo).

-Dartmouth has played 9 non-PL opponents. The Big Green are 0-9 vs. in-state rival New Hampshire.

-Penn has played 10 games vs non-PL teams. The Quakers are 0-7 vs. cross-town rival 'Nova. They are 3-0 vs. non-scholly teams (Duquesne-MAAC and San Diego-PFL).

-Brown has played a whopping 15 games vs non-PL teams. The Bears are 4-6 vs. in-state rival URI and combined 5-0 vs. Albany, Duquesne, San Diego, and Stony Brook.

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Consider this - In the past 10 YEARS, the 8 teams of the Ivy League have a TOTAL of 7 wins vs. AQ-conference teams not from the PL.

Harvard's 3 wins vs NU and Brown's 4 wins vs URI - that's it. Outside of some questionable PL wins, what can the Ivy League show for the past decade?

[Ivytalk]

And your point is?xconfusedx

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm interested to see where this goes...


-Cornell has played only 3 non-PL opponents. The Big Red lost to Towson (CAA) and beat 2 NEC teams (Albany and Wagner).

Interestingly enough, Cornell beat Towson two years prior when the Tigers were in the Patriot League. There you go, proof positive that Towson's move to the CAA improved the program (well, enough to beat Cornell.... :p)

[DFW HOYA]

Yes, it would be nice for the Ivies to play a representative schedule, but it doesn't really change the fact that the Ivy presidents (particularly H-Y-P) keep football in a gilded cage to assuage its faculty that the tail is not wagging the dog.

Strange how the Ivy strives to be the best in everything it does except athletics.

[TexasTerror]

Aren't we about to see some "unique" out of conference match-ups for the Ivy teams soon? Hasn't Princeton started a home-and-home with Hampton? Doesn't one of the Big South teams play an Ivy soon?

[aceinthehole]

And your point is?xconfusedx

Why should Ivy League teams get consideration or votes in polls when there is a record of limited participation against non-PL schools?

Furthermore, the league's performace vs. AQ-conferences is not very good at all - just 7-27 (.206) in the past decade.

A lot of posters on this board called for the NEC to "step up" and play some games, and we have!! Just look at our non-conference scheduling for this year!

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1333218&postcount=93

As long as the IL continues to schedule and perfom this way, I have serious questions about their eligibilty for top-25 votes by pollsters.

[TexasTerror]

As long as the IL continues to schedule and perfom this way, I have serious questions about their eligibilty for top-25 votes by pollsters.

And as long as the NEC can't make up their mind on whether they want to go full scholarship or not offer any scholarships at all, I'll be questioning why TSN does not have a Mid-Major Poll, since that's what the NEC and Pioneer Leagues of the world are - mid-majors at the FCS level. xwhistlex

[slycat]

I find it funny that people are bashing FCS teams just because of what conference they are in. There are endless threads about how the FBS says the FCS is inferior. And yet here we are talking about "inferior" FCS conferences. They OCC schedule is where a team shows its guts and the NEC is trying to do that. Who cares if they don;t give out scholarships they are still playing the games.

[TexasTerror]

I find it funny that people are bashing FCS teams just because of what conference they are in. There are endless threads about how the FBS says the FCS is inferior. And yet here we are talking about "inferior" FCS conferences. They OCC schedule is where a team shows its guts and the NEC is trying to do that. Who cares if they don;t give out scholarships they are still playing the games.

My remark was more sarcastic than anything...

It amuses me to see the NEC fans always defending their conference and berating the Ivy League - out of jealously due to where others presume them to be - higher than their own conference.

[aceinthehole]

There is NOTHING smack about this post. I presented FACTS about IL non-conference results along with an personal opinion that they aren't deserving of any kind of ranking.

Why was this post moved? I guess if you don't think Harvard is "worthy" of a top-25 ranking, it has to be smack ... why do the moderators pick sides on these issues whenit is meant for meaningful debate?

[agsadmin]

There is NOTHING smack about this post. I presented FACTS about IL non-conference results along with an personal opinion that they aren't deserving of any kind of ranking.

Why was this post moved? I guess if you don't think Harvard is "worthy" of a top-25 ranking, it has to be smack ... why do the moderators pick sides on these issues whenit is meant for meaningful debate?

Mod33 informed me via PM last night that this thread was moved to the FCS Smack area based upon the problems in the last thread in which this same subject was brought up.

If you were involved in the last thread, "personal shots" as Mod33 put it, ran rampant and led to the shutdown of the thread, before it was resurrected sans about 2/3rds of the posts. I will move it back to FCS Discussion, but if there is a return of the problems of the last thread, it will immediately return to FCS Smack.

[Go...gate]

Here are some FACTS on Ivy non-conference games for the past decade (10 seasons):

-Cornell has played only 3 non-PL opponents. The Big Red lost to Towson (CAA) and beat 2 NEC teams (Albany and Wagner).

-Harvard has played only 4 non-PL opponents. The Crimson are 3-1 vs Notheastern, playing all 4 games in Cambridge.

-Princeton has played just 4 non-PL opponents. The Tigers lost both games vs AQ-conference teams (Hampton and The Citidel) and are 2-0 vs. San Diego of the non-scholly Pioneer League.

-Columbia has played just 4 non-PL opponents. The Lions lost to Towson (CAA) and beat 3 former MAAC teams (Iona, Marist, and Duquesne).

-Yale has played 7 non-PL opponents. The Bulldogs are 5-2 vs. non-scholly Pioneer schools (2-0 vs. Dayton; 2-2 vs. San Diego; 1-0 vs. Valpo).

-Dartmouth has played 9 non-PL opponents. The Big Green are 0-9 vs. in-state rival New Hampshire.

-Penn has played 10 games vs non-PL teams. The Quakers are 0-7 vs. cross-town rival 'Nova. They are 3-0 vs. non-scholly teams (Duquesne-MAAC and San Diego-PFL).

-Brown has played a whopping 15 games vs non-PL teams. The Bears are 4-6 vs. in-state rival URI and combined 5-0 vs. Albany, Duquesne, San Diego, and Stony Brook.

----

Consider this - In the past 10 YEARS, the 8 teams of the Ivy League have a TOTAL of 7 wins vs. AQ-conference teams not from the PL.

Harvard's 3 wins vs NU and Brown's 4 wins vs URI - that's it. Outside of some questionable PL wins, what can the Ivy League show for the past decade?

And for better or worse, the Ivies don't want to play most schools outside the Patriot or Pioneer. What matters is the Ivy League title.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Consider this - In the past 10 YEARS, the 8 teams of the Ivy League have a TOTAL of 7 wins vs. AQ-conference teams not from the PL.

Harvard's 3 wins vs NU and Brown's 4 wins vs URI - that's it. Outside of some questionable PL wins, what can the Ivy League show for the past decade?

Double standards abound.

Harvard and Brown have seven wins against two CAA schools. But, I hear you cry, they were URI and Northeastern! Tough; either paint the wins with the broad brush you paint the losses/scheduling, or give credit where credit is due. Bottom line is they are wins against CAA teams with a full complement of scholarships - and more than the NEC was able to manage.

Second, can't I say the same thing about the NEC: "Albany's two wins against (under-.500) Delaware and (under-.500) Hofstra and a win by CCSU over a 3-8 Georgia Southern team (the infamous "Brian VanGorder aberration") - that's it. Outside some 'questionable PL wins', what else has the NEC ever done to deserve Top 25 consideration?"

Third - you want us to judge the Ivy League by the losses and scheduling habits of Dartmouth and Columbia, two of the league's cellar dwellers. But then can't we judge the NEC by St. Francis and Wagner - who count losses to VMI (49-0), Marist, Morehead State, and D-II Stonehill just last year?

Finally, there's no question Albany was a quality team last year. But equally true is that Harvard and Brown were quality teams last year, too. And by your own measuring stick Brown and Harvard are better than any team the NEC has on offer:


-Brown has played a whopping 15 games vs non-PL teams. The Bears are 4-6 vs. in-state rival URI and combined 5-0 vs. Albany, Duquesne, San Diego, and Stony Brook. <-- Undefeated against Albany (the best NEC team in history) and Stony Brook

-Harvard has played only 4 non-PL opponents. The Crimson are 3-1 vs Notheastern, playing all 4 games in Cambridge <- which is a better record against the CAA than any NEC team.

[Dane96]

Questionable PL wins?

Rose glasses...anyone seen a pair.

[Dane96]

As someone who feels he has the ability (and the knowledge after witnessing games in person and on the TV) to evaluate Harvard, Brown and Albany....I really dont have a problem saying Albany would have handled BOTH.

Homer all you want...but based on scheme and personnel...I would say Albany wins 7 out of 10.

[aceinthehole]

LFN - I expressed NO OPINION on the quality of the Ivy's CAA wins. I simply presented the quantity of such wins. Your bias is showing when you read too deeply into my objective statements and assume I am making certain judgements.

The intent of my post was to show over a long period of time (10 years), they IL has played limited games vs. non-PL opponents and that the IL has had very little sucess against non-PL AQ-confrence teams.

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To rebut your specific comments:

1) I have given FULL CREDIT to Harvard and Brown for the wins (although I would note that just 2 of those 7 wins were on the road).

The IL has a total of 7 CAA wins over a 10 year period. The NEC has a total of 2 CAA road wins in the past 3 years. Readers can make their own conclusions.

2) Again, I never took at shot at the quality of the Ivy's non-PL wins vs. AQ conferences.

I simply stated in the last 10 years the Ivy league has had 7 wins vs. non-PL AQ conferences. By comparison, the NEC has had 5 wins vs. non-PL AQ-conference teams in the past 3 years.

3) I posted a summary of ALL of the Ivy schedule and results. I did not single out any teams specifically.

Nowhere did I measure Harvard/Brown vs. Albany. I simpley stated, if you are going to consider ranking Ivy League teams, you must EQUALLY consider NEC teams.

:)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Outside of some questionable PL wins, what can the Ivy League show for the past decade?


LFN - I expressed NO OPINION on the quality of the Ivy's CAA wins. The intent of my post was to show over a long period of time (10 years), they IL has played limited games vs. non-PL opponents and that the IL has had very little success against non-PL AQ-conference teams.

That's as ridiculous as if Lehigh beats CCSU in their home opener, and then I turn around and say that Lehigh's win in that game shows the abject superiority over the NEC because the rate at which the PL has beaten the NEC in 2009 shows that in the last 10 years Lehigh would have beaten NEC teams at the rate of one a year. You can't cherry-pick the rate of one range and then project it over a range of other years. The only fair comparison would be to say that "over the last decade, the Ivy League has seven CAA wins, and the NEC has two".

The problem is, by any fair measurement, the NEC falls short of the Ivy League on this.

But let's just cut to the chase here: The Ivy League, PL and NEC are wayyyy more similar competitively than anyone in all three of these leagues would care to admit. The best in all three conferences are playoff-worthy and one very well could find themselves in the championship game in the future (well, when the Ivy League overturns their antiquated postseason ban... but I digress). The worst in all three conferences are some of the worst teams in FCS. And the gap between the top and bottom in all three conferences is large. Trying to lift one over the other is a pointless exercise.

[UAalum72]

You can't cherry-pick the rate of one range and then project it over a range of other years. The only fair comparison would be to say that "over the last decade, the Ivy League has seven CAA wins, and the NEC has two".

Except that the NEC is FAR different from what it was ten years ago; some (RMU, Monmouth, Sacred Heart) were only in their second cohorts of recruiting classes from starting the football program; different teams; and most important, that was before both need-based aid and scholarships.

Unless you want to argue that the Ivy League has also transformed itself for the better during those years. xrolleyesx

[Dane96]

But let's just cut to the chase here: The Ivy League, PL and NEC are wayyyy more similar competitively than anyone in all three of these leagues would care to admit. The best in all three conferences are playoff-worthy and one very well could find themselves in the championship game in the future (well, when the Ivy League overturns their antiquated postseason ban... but I digress). The worst in all three conferences are some of the worst teams in FCS. And the gap between the top and bottom in all three conferences is large. Trying to lift one over the other is a pointless exercise.

I think many of us can agree to this...but not by the logic you use.

[aceinthehole]

You can't cherry-pick the rate of one range and then project it over a range of other years. The only fair comparison would be to say that "over the last decade, the Ivy League has seven CAA wins, and the NEC has two".

The problem is, by any fair measurement, the NEC falls short of the Ivy League on this.

Fine, let me correct you then and directly compare the Ivy and NEC.

Over the last 3 years the NEC has 5 wins vs. AQ-conference teams (excluding the PL):

CCSU @ Georgia Southern (2006)
Albany @ Delaware (2006)
Monmouth vs. Morgan State (2006)
Albany at Hofstra (2008)
CCSU @ Deleware State (2008)

Over the same time, the IVY LEAGUE has 0 wins vs. AQ-conference teams (excluding the PL):

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fine, let me correct you then and directly compare the Ivy and NEC.

Over the last 3 years the NEC has 5 wins vs. AQ-conference teams (excluding the PL):

CCSU @ Georgia Southern (2006)
Albany @ Delaware (2006)
Monmouth vs. Morgan State (2006)
Albany at Hofstra (2008)
CCSU @ Deleware State (2008)

Over the same time, the IVY LEAGUE has 0 wins vs. AQ-conference teams (excluding the PL):

But you shunt the PL to the side as if Harvard's wins over Holy Cross/Lafayette/Lehigh don't matter. Why include the MEAC when their conference RPI is less than the PL's? Any fair measurement must include the PL - especially if you include the 2 MEAC wins fer Gosh sakes. Again you cherry-pick the data to fit your preconceived notions.

Harvard is 7-2 against the PL alone in the last three years (3-0 against Lafayette, 2-1 against Holy Cross, 2-1 versus Lehigh). I don't recall the exact numbers, but overall I think the record of the Ivy vs. Patriot is overall in their favor by 4-5 games (like 20-15 over the last three years, something like that).

Why not take a look at the NEC and Ivy head-to-head over the last three years, and for good measure add Stony Brook to the mix? Or does that not fit your answer either?

[aceinthehole]

But you shunt the PL to the side as if Harvard's wins over Holy Cross/Lafayette/Lehigh don't matter. Why include the MEAC when their conference RPI is less than the PL's? Any fair measurement must include the PL - especially if you include the 2 MEAC wins fer Gosh sakes. Again you cherry-pick the data to fit your preconceived notions.

Harvard is 7-2 against the PL alone in the last three years (3-0 against Lafayette, 2-1 against Holy Cross, 2-1 versus Lehigh). I don't recall the exact numbers, but overall I think the record of the Ivy vs. Patriot is overall in their favor by 4-5 games (like 20-15 over the last three years, something like that).

Why not take a look at the NEC and Ivy head-to-head over the last three years, and for good measure add Stony Brook to the mix? Or does that not fit your answer either?

You still don't get the point, but maybe some others out there do! The reason I excluded the PL from this compairson, is becasue of how many games the Ivy plays against the PL.

However, In the last 3 years, the Ivy League is 32-22 (.593) against the PL. In that same period, the NEC is 4-4 (.500) vs. the PL. Despite playing far few games, the NEC has done nearly as well as the Ivy League.

Please, feel free to do some of your own research and present some FACTS here. After that, you can provided any analysis you want.

I'm pretty sure that readers can evaluate the validity of the data I have provided and make their own conclusions.

[TexasTerror]

However, In the last 3 years, the Ivy League is 32-22 (.593) against the PL. In that same period, the NEC is 4-4 (.500) vs. the PL. Despite playing far few games, the NEC has done nearly as well as the Ivy League.

aceinthehole - your data shows that the Ivy League has had much more success against the PL than the NEC has. Thanks! xreadx

[dgreco]

aceinthehole - your data shows that the Ivy League has had much more success against the PL than the NEC has. Thanks! xreadx

I know the sample sizes are different, but you clearly have to look at the programs of games played. I do not know the answer, but maybe NEC teams have played PL teams with a .200 winning percent over that 3 years and the IL has played teams with a .700 winning percent. I think that needs to be added in to even discuss the difference of .093%.

[ngineer]

As to the premise of the thread, "should the IL be part of the FCS polls?", of course they should, just as any other FCS school. There is not perfect system and polls are just that, imperfect opinions colored by bias and how one views the quality of any team's opponents. Doesn't matter what conference one looks at. Polls are polls. One thing good about FCS is that we settle it on the field and the fact that the IL chooses not to participate is their loss.

[Ivytalk]

You still don't get the point, but maybe some others out there do! The reason I excluded the PL from this compairson, is becasue of how many games the Ivy plays against the PL.

However, In the last 3 years, the Ivy League is 32-22 (.593) against the PL. In that same period, the NEC is 4-4 (.500) vs. the PL. Despite playing far few games, the NEC has done nearly as well as the Ivy League.

Please, feel free to do some of your own research and present some FACTS here. After that, you can provided any analysis you want.

I'm pretty sure that readers can evaluate the validity of the data I have provided and make their own conclusions.

Gawd, ace, your statistical sample is too small...proves nothing except the NEC is about 16% worse against the PL than the Ivies.xrolleyesx

That said, I'd welcome a chance for Harvard to put Albany and Central CT in short pants!xnodx

[Dane96]

Grrrr...why not this year...I have been re-released into the wild, which means we could have had a hell of an Albany-Harvard tailgate on Soldiers Field Road...one that I wouldnt be nagged about post-mortem!

I think it would be a helluva game that would get some solid fan presence.