2009's Basement Climbers

[DFW HOYA]

The following seven schools were winless in their conference in 2008. Which one makes it up the ladder in 2009 and why?

Campbell (Pioneer)
Chattanooga (SoCon)
Dartmouth (Ivy)
Howard (MEAC)
Georgetown (Patriot)
Indiana St. (MVC)
St. Francis (NEC)

[RichH2]

Dont know much about the non east schools.

GU with a very good recruiting class last year s/b improved. Will not be winless.

Dartmouth good class last yr and this but rest of ILalso improved did not make up any ground but maybe they will beat Princeton

St.Francis unlikely to win any games

[DetroitFlyer]

Campbell will have a tough road in 2009. Last year, they were really not in a single PFL game. There might be slight improvement in 2009, but if they win a game it will be a huge upset. Saint Francis, however, was in a number of NEC games. I keep expecting a "breakout" season for the Red Flash, but every year they disappoint. Still, hope springs eternal. I think SFUP wins a few NEC games this year.

[Silenoz]

Did Idaho State actually manage to win a game? My memory must be going


edit: aah, vs Sac State. No surprise that the Hornets would be the one to blow it

[Hoyadestroya85]

hmm.. indiana st. Maybe GTown.

[smallcollegefbfan]

The following seven schools were winless in their conference in 2008. Which one makes it up the ladder in 2009 and why?

Campbell (Pioneer)
Chattanooga (SoCon)
Dartmouth (Ivy)
Howard (MEAC)
Georgetown (Patriot)
Indiana St. (MVC)
St. Francis (NEC)

My guess would be Howard or St. Francis. I don't think any of those win their league but I could see Howard and St. Francis winning 4-5 games, maybe 6.

[UAalum72]

St. Francis winning 4-5 games, maybe 6.

Red Flash haven't won more than three games since classifying as I-AA in 1993.

I'm always rooting they start winning OOC (because that's the easiest way to raise the league's ranking) but by now I'll have to see it to believe it.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Red Flash haven't won more than three games since classifying as I-AA in 1993.

I'm always rooting they start winning OOC (because that's the easiest way to raise the league's ranking) but by now I'll have to see it to believe it.

I thought I saw a good bit of talent returning for them. I knew they didn't win many, if any, last year but I figured they could win 4 games or so this year. The streak of 3 or less has to win sometime. xthumbsupx

[ISUMatt]

NOT INDIANA STATE

[danefan]

Red Flash haven't won more than three games since classifying as I-AA in 1993.

I'm always rooting they start winning OOC (because that's the easiest way to raise the league's ranking) but by now I'll have to see it to believe it.


I thought I saw a good bit of talent returning for them. I knew they didn't win many, if any, last year but I figured they could win 4 games or so this year. The streak of 3 or less has to win sometime. xthumbsupx

At some point something has to give right? I just don't get how they recruit at all. No more than 3 wins a year, no upward movement, tiny and expensive school in the middle of nowhere.

I feel for them but they had the best QB in the NEC for 3+ years in a row (Doria) and they still couldn't win.

This year's OOC for them is going to be tough for them, but I hope playing the best in the country will help recruiting.xthumbsupx Lets also hope for a win over Morehead.

[Skjellyfetti]

Not Chattanooga.

I'm not familiar enough with the others to know their chances.

[aceinthehole]

At some point something has to give right? I just don't get how they recruit at all. No more than 3 wins a year, no upward movement, tiny and expensive school in the middle of nowhere.

I feel for them but they had the best QB in the NEC for 3+ years in a row (Doria) and they still couldn't win.

This year's OOC for them is going to be tough for them, but I hope playing the best in the country will help recruiting.xthumbsupx Lets also hope for a win over Morehead.

I agree!!!!

I always root for them in OOC, but they've disapointed every time.

Their problem is always going to be depth. They've had a few all-NEC players and guys who could play anywhere in I-AA, but they are missing so many pieces. Doria was fantastic and they also had a duo of WRs that were great.

They have recruited a few bigs on Defense, but that is where they are weakest.

[Libertine]

I wonder how much the health of Coach Opfar's wife affected the Saint Francis team the last few seasons, especially last year.

[gr8ness97]

LOL


Not Howard :D

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The following seven schools were winless in their conference in 2008. Which one makes it up the ladder in 2009 and why?

Campbell (Pioneer)
Chattanooga (SoCon)
Dartmouth (Ivy)
Howard (MEAC)
Georgetown (Patriot)
Indiana St. (MVC)
St. Francis (NEC)

By far Dartmouth is in the best situation of all these schools. Buddy Teevens is in Year Three of his rebuilding program, he's flushed out the two horrible recruiting classes from the last two years, Dartmouth is a school that recruits nationally, and has a coach in there that is quite heavily invested in Dartmouth being a player once again in the Ivy League (as a former star player and former star coach).

All the others are either not far enough along their building/rebuilding efforts (Campbell, Chatty, Indiana State) or appear to have other institutional/endemic problems that need solving before becoming good teams (G'Town, St. Francis, Howard, Indiana State). Dartmouth has certainly had problems, but unlike the other schools their problems appear to be more behind them. If the Big Green were .500 this year I wouldn't be surprised.

[DFW HOYA]

All the others are either not far enough along their building/rebuilding efforts (Campbell, Chatty, Indiana State) or appear to have other institutional/endemic problems that need solving before becoming good teams (G'Town, St. Francis, Howard, Indiana State). Dartmouth has certainly had problems, but unlike the other schools their problems appear to be more behind them. If the Big Green were .500 this year I wouldn't be surprised.

Georgetown is closer systemically to Dartmouth than Indiana State or Howard. Neither recruits well enough across the board to compete against those who do.

[carney2]

Dartmouth - the best shot at a League win - or two. I expected better from them last year.

Indiana State and Chatanooga - Two mystery programs. Both of these are large state universities that should not be perpetually mired in mediocrity. But they are.

Howard - Spiraling down, down, down - with no end in sight. If any of the football scholarship crowd in the Patriot League is convinced that schollies will solve their problems, they'd best spend an hour or two looking at some Howard game films.

Georgetown - I was impressed by what I saw in Easton last September. Alas, a promising freshman QB is obviously not enough. Who knows - if they ever get around to announcing their recruiting class, maybe they found some talent and size to go along with last year's 7 QB recruits. If so, maybe...

St. Francis - Why do they bother? What is a Red Flash? It is obviously not a football icon. What politically incorrect mascot did they have back in the Maurice Stokes era?

Campbell - Not a prayer. Let's beat up on the new kid again.

[LBPop]

After watching Georgetown closely for five seasons, the common thread was that they were typically overpowered physically. The rare victories came against the teams that frankly did not do that. The only conference victories were against Bucknell and that just illustrates my point. Bucknell generally fields a physically similar team to Georgetown. That's why the Hoyas were able to pull out a couple of last second victories. But the rest of the league just pushes them around. The one exception (that my teachers used to say "proved the rule") was an exciting win over Fordham--in 2005 I think.

For this reason, Georgetown generally has little chance in its Patriot League games. I have said repeatedly that Georgetown has been very representative behind the line of scrimmage (both sides). Usually that would mean that the bounce of the ball, or a great play by a "skill player" (I wish there was a better term for that) could allow the Hoyas to steal a win or two. But when the physical mismatch on the line is too great, a lucky bounce or great catch rarely wins the game--it's already too out of hand.

I am told that Georgetown suffered a lot of injuries on both lines last season and that they have added some quality kids who can play with their hand in the dirt. If that's true they may surprise a couple of the power teams. But until they can hold their ground physically, they will rely on out of conference teams and Bucknell for an occasional win. By the way, they beat Bucknell in 2005 and 2007--maybe the pattern will hold in 2009?

[slostang]

Southern Utah has had a few rough years, but I expect them to be a very solid team in 2010. They were close last year and you could really see them progress as the year went on. Three years ago they went from having only around 40 scholarships to 57 scholarships. I think they may have added a few more the last couple of years. Those players who received the additional scholarships three years ago will be seniors and redshirt juniors next season. That and they have a new coaching staff that will be in it's second year. I think they will make some noise in 2010.

[WMTribe90]

Hofstra's new coach is in his third year. He returns alot of starters from a team with a poor record, but one that lost several close games including two in OT. I think they have a winning season and will upset at least one of the favorites (Maine, Umass and UNH) in the North. Maybe even an outside shot at the playoffs if they can finish second in the north division.


Switching gears...

My great great great grandfather owned a farm not far from St. Francis and owned the general store in Loretto, PA. Several of my relatives attended the school back in the day. I always root for St. Francis and hope they do well. However, I don't see them ever exceeding at this level. Their location, size and instituitional mission are far better suited for a DIII football program. I know that's not possible because they are DI in basketball. I'm not even sure scholarships would do much to improve their plight.

[Native]

Did Idaho State actually manage to win a game? My memory must be going

edit: aah, vs Sac State. No surprise that the Hornets would be the one to blow it

2009 will not likely be the year for a Bengal turn around.

Players, coaches and adminstration alike are under fire on a program that is already weak.

I doubt that Sam Bradford will play more than a half when Idaho State travels to Norman.

Maybe ISU can use 2009 to clean house and start all over.

[biobengal]

I doubt that Sam Bradford will play more than a half when Idaho State travels to Norman.


Idaho State vs. Oklahoma is the worst matchup in all of division I. xlolx

I hope they spend that money wisely.

[DFW HOYA]

For this reason, Georgetown generally has little chance in its Patriot League games. I have said repeatedly that Georgetown has been very representative behind the line of scrimmage (both sides). Usually that would mean that the bounce of the ball, or a great play by a "skill player" (I wish there was a better term for that) could allow the Hoyas to steal a win or two. But when the physical mismatch on the line is too great, a lucky bounce or great catch rarely wins the game--it's already too out of hand.


This is the inconvenient truth the other PL schools know well, but don't want to talk about: since joining the PL, Georgetown has had no consistent recruiting of linemen that would allow its backs to have a reasonable opportunity to gain yardage on the ground. A team that is averaging 104 yards a game either has a superb passing game (which it doesn't) or no blocking, and that's the case with Georgetown. Of its 104 yards a game, over 40 yards a game were from quarterback keepers, the derided "shotgun draw". The Hoyas managed just four rushing touchdowns all season....four.

You can recruit seven QB's, but without a line to protect them it won't mean much.

[mtgrizfan4life]

The team in the BigSky that was near the basement last year that will surprise this year is.........
Northern Colorado. They will be near .500 in conference play this year, and will turn some heads.

[Ivytalk]

By far Dartmouth is in the best situation of all these schools. Buddy Teevens is in Year Three of his rebuilding program, he's flushed out the two horrible recruiting classes from the last two years, Dartmouth is a school that recruits nationally, and has a coach in there that is quite heavily invested in Dartmouth being a player once again in the Ivy League (as a former star player and former star coach).

All the others are either not far enough along their building/rebuilding efforts (Campbell, Chatty, Indiana State) or appear to have other institutional/endemic problems that need solving before becoming good teams (G'Town, St. Francis, Howard, Indiana State). Dartmouth has certainly had problems, but unlike the other schools their problems appear to be more behind them. If the Big Green were .500 this year I wouldn't be surprised.

As long as Columbia fields a team, any other Ivy school has a chance to escape the basement.xcoffeex

I don't think Dartmouth will go 5-5. I'll say 3-7 or 4-6. I wish them well. Except against us!:p

[RichH2]

DFW.

Belaboring the obvious but GU has recruited better than avg skill players and some pretty decent DLmen but OL , well small and slow is a lethal combo for your backfield. OL not sole reason for O woes. OL s/b enuf for quick backfield but GU has some of the slowest developing plays I've seen. Coaching is more the issue rather than OL

[UAalum72]

St. Francis - Why do they bother? What is a Red Flash? It is obviously not a football icon. What politically incorrect mascot did they have back in the Maurice Stokes era?


Sorry to dispute your anti-PC rant, but they were the Red Flash (like a flash of lightning) even in Stokes' day, though for a time until the mid-80s they were also called the Frankies, if you think that's any better. The outstanding male and female senior students are still given the Mr. and Miss Frankie Award.

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette article from 1955 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1129&dat=19550305&id=EtoNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4moDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6660,1459255)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2e/StFrancisRedFlash.png

[DetroitFlyer]

This is the inconvenient truth the other PL schools know well, but don't want to talk about: since joining the PL, Georgetown has had no consistent recruiting of linemen that would allow its backs to have a reasonable opportunity to gain yardage on the ground. A team that is averaging 104 yards a game either has a superb passing game (which it doesn't) or no blocking, and that's the case with Georgetown. Of its 104 yards a game, over 40 yards a game were from quarterback keepers, the derided "shotgun draw". The Hoyas managed just four rushing touchdowns all season....four.

You can recruit seven QB's, but without a line to protect them it won't mean much.

Let's not forget that non-athletic scholarship Dayton defeated the PL Champion two years ago, on that champions home field. I would be willing to bet that the Dayton team that accomplished that feat did not have a larger offensive line than Georgetown. Dayton routinely plays with "undersized" offensive lineman. Of course we had Kevin Hoyng, a great scrambling and passing QB, and great receivers running the spread offense. Short passes substitute for a traditional running game, a scrambling QB substitutes for a traditional running game, and both open up the field for the longer pass plays. If Dayton had rolled into the Bronx and tried to play a smashmouth running type of game, it would have been UGLY.

That same season, Dayton went on to easily defeat Albany, a team with a very large offensive line and a smashmouth running game. Albany got their running yards, but Kevin passed and scrambled all over them. At the end of the Gridiron Classic, Dayton actually outrushed Albany with its non-traditional running game.

Perhaps Georgetown is just not playing the "right' type of game for the student/athletes that they are able to recruit.... If Dayton can do it, I think Georgetown should be able to follow suit and win a few PL games every season. Maybe it is time for a new coach and a new way of thinking.... Just don't even think of "stealing" any of the Flyer coaches....

Speaking of Kevin Hoyng, he is actually joining the Flyer coaching staff this season!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is a serious question: St. Francis (PA) is a small, private, Franciscan college. Though they would need a boost in academics, wouldn't they be a serious consideration for Patriot League membership? The PL could very well save their football program and put them with schools that at least approach their institution size. Even their location is much more squarely in the PL footprint than the NEC footprint.

I'm not saying they're a perfect fit at all, but in other threads folks are wondering where full-member PL members might come from, and St. Francis (PA) is one of the very few that could fit the profile - emphasizing again that they'd need to seriously beef up their academics to play ball.

[DetroitFlyer]

This is a serious question: St. Francis (PA) is a small, private, Franciscan college. Though they would need a boost in academics, wouldn't they be a serious consideration for Patriot League membership? The PL could very well save their football program and put them with schools that at least approach their institution size. Even their location is much more squarely in the PL footprint than the NEC footprint.

I'm not saying they're a perfect fit at all, but in other threads folks are wondering where full-member PL members might come from, and St. Francis (PA) is one of the very few that could fit the profile - emphasizing again that they'd need to seriously beef up their academics to play ball.

Academics would be a huge problem.... SFUP has never aspired to be a top tier academic school. I have not looked at the data, but I think the gap between the PL and SFUP would be massive. I'm not even sure that SFUP would want to improve academics to that level.

Size wise, they would be a good fit. I just do not think they could live with the AI and the limited pool of recruits. Athletic scholarship in the NEC is actually a good fit for SFUP. Without athletic scholarships, they could not recruit any good players, or at least very few.... Athletic scholarships at least give them a chance. Still, it is tough with Duquesne, Robert Morris, IUP, and of course Pitt and Penn State in your backyard.

I think the bottom line is the PL would probably go out of business long before SFUP could improve academics to the point of being able to join the league.

[UAalum72]

Even their location is much more squarely in the PL footprint than the NEC footprint.
Not in football. The NEC doesn't extend as far east as Holy Cross, as far southeast as Georgetown, and has two teams close to SFU - Robert Morris and Duquesne in Pittsburgh. Distance is probably a wash at best.

[LBPop]

DFW.

Coaching is more the issue rather than OL

Sure, all of it matters. But X's and O's only make a big difference if the talent level is comparable. If your X's can kick the butts of my O's, I lose. There was a mention in another post about Dayton playing undersized linemen and succeeding. Of course that can happen, but it takes a lot of talent to offset 40lbs per man. Georgetown has had a few of those people--one is in the NFL now. But when you field 9 undersized starting linemen (both sides) and if only two or three can stand up to their heavier opponent, you generally lose.

Certainly there are plenty of reasons for three wins in two years. That kind of ineptitude requires "contributions" from many areas. But if I had only one wish, it would be for a bunch of strong, quick and smart linemen with bad attitudes (at least for about 3 hours on 11 Saturdays in the fall).