Fordham or PL posters know anything about this re: Ram FB scholarships?

[Go...gate]

A post on the Colgate VoyForums board this afternoon re: Fordham FB scholarships, as follows:

"To be announced by the league June 1: The decision on
football scholarships for league members will follow
suit of previous precedent regarding scholarships-
that being one of permissiveness. Fordham can begin
offering scholarships to incoming 2010 recruits, but
will remain a league member. There will, however, be
sliding allowance of their post season eligibility-
ie, they will not be eligible for a league title, and
subsequently be ineligible for FCS playoffs. These
restrictions will be reviewed and adjusted annually by
the league in response to fellow members scholarship
policies."

Thoughts?

[Franks Tanks]

A post on the Colgate VoyForums board this afternoon re: Fordham FB scholarships, as follows:

"To be announced by the league June 1: The decision on
football scholarships for league members will follow
suit of previous precedent regarding scholarships-
that being one of permissiveness. Fordham can begin
offering scholarships to incoming 2010 recruits, but
will remain a league member. There will, however, be
sliding allowance of their post season eligibility-
ie, they will not be eligible for a league title, and
subsequently be ineligible for FCS playoffs. These
restrictions will be reviewed and adjusted annually by
the league in response to fellow members scholarship
policies."

Thoughts?

It doesnt make much sense to me. The primary reason for scholarships is to increase national competitiveness. Why would they stay in the league if they arent eligible for league titles and playoffs-- really strange.

I hope this isnt the final decision, it really makes a muddled situation even more confusing,

We are the Patriot League, we dont offer scholarships (except for that once school that does , and it doesnt really count because they can win the league title anyway).

[henfan]

A post on the Colgate VoyForums board this afternoon re: Fordham FB scholarships, as follows:

"To be announced by the league June 1: The decision on
football scholarships for league members will follow
suit of previous precedent regarding scholarships-
that being one of permissiveness. Fordham can begin
offering scholarships to incoming 2010 recruits, but
will remain a league member. There will, however, be
sliding allowance of their post season eligibility-
ie, they will not be eligible for a league title, and
subsequently be ineligible for FCS playoffs. These
restrictions will be reviewed and adjusted annually by
the league in response to fellow members scholarship
policies."

Thoughts?

If not eligible for the PL auto bid as league champion, why would FU not be eligible for an at-large bid? I can't see why their conference status would have any impact on their eligibility for an NCAA at-large.

[aceinthehole]

I don't think this is accurate. It doesn't pass a basic smell test.

[danefan]

If its true, it is nothing more than a scheduling arrangement with Fordham.

I doubt its true though. There is one logical flaw - just because just because they aren't eligible for the PL title doesn't mean they aren't eligible for an at-large bid.

[Go...gate]

I wonder if anybody from Rose Hill can enlighten us on whether this just a lot of hooey or not.

It sounds like you can only make the play-offs as the PL champion of you DON'T offer scholarships. The hell with that; I want the best team playing in the league to represent the league in the tournament.

[FUrams7]

strange.. Fordham can offer scholarships but not win the PL title (if we have best record)? how could the not be eligible for FCS playoffs? the CAA SoCon among others offer full rides.. do the mean the only way they can get into FCS playoff is if at large bid? I understand the PL is trying to buy more time (on the scholly issue).. but i would like more the PL to be more specific .. also is FU not eligible for the 09 season. that would be silly since the 1st class (with scholly would be 10).. and even then will take a few (4) years to get a full complement of scholarship players.

[Fordham]

no idea. have not heard anything supporting this story.

[DFW HOYA]

The post was placed right in the middle of an unrelated thread over at the old Colgate board. While technically plausible (e.g., keeping Fordham as a scheduling partner), it's not likely, and in no event would the PL actually decide something before a meeting.

[RichH2]

It is called the Holy Cross compromise, which someone dredged up. It was nonsensical then and it remains so now. Like being a semi virgin. Either you is or you aint, my dear.
Just imagine FU 10-1 but Colgate wins PL with a 7-4 record and goes to playoffs.

[Seawolf97]

The PL Admins continue to strugle with progress. Of course this may not be accurate or final,
have to see what happens on 6/1.

[turbodean]

So in this scenario we wouldn't be allowed to win the league and get the auto-bid because athletic scholarships are an advantage? Hello?? Guess why we are moving forward with athletic scholarships?

But then if we stay in the PL with these conditions we'd be only be playing for an at large bid. How could we even be considered for an at large if we've only played and beat up on a bunch on "inferior" (non-scholarship) teams...

So Fordham would agree to this because??? we would get the priveledge of 6 guaranteed games each year... silly.

and what about the AI issue?

I don't think its going to be that hard for Fordham to find competitive games... or a new league for that matter, if it comes to that.

So this is nonsense. By the way, i don't think PL non scholies are necessarily inferior, but whoever cooked up this compromise obviously thinks so.

[Jackman]

I could see this happening. For Fordham, it would be preferable to going Independent, since they'd have to get into the playoffs as an "at large" either way. And it would be less expensive than joining the Big South. I guess the question is, how much money is access to the Big South's autobid worth?

[ngineer]

I could see this happening. For Fordham, it would be preferable to going Independent, since they'd have to get into the playoffs as an "at large" either way. And it would be less expensive than joining the Big South. I guess the question is, how much money is access to the Big South's autobid worth?\

That does seem plausible...gives both FU and the PL a couple years of easy scheduling while the PL continues to scratch its balls and figure out what to do.

[RichH2]

As far as I can see, PL would have to find some before they could scratch them

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not putting much credence in this. First of all, Fordham never proposed to go ABOVE 63 Scholarships, which is the only way they would be ineligible for the FCS playoffs (and FBS has never been in Fordham's plans).

Second, how could you justify to the FCS world at large as having them a league member and eligible for the playoffs but not the autobid? You'd in essence be saying the scholarships are an "unfair advantage" for the league title, but not the playoffs. What, the rest of the league isn't "good enough" to win? If that's the case, why just not give up the autobid and drop to D-III while we're at it?

Finally, can you picture that media day, explaining how Fordham is eligible for the FCS playoffs, is part of the league but not eligible for the league title? I don't think so.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm not putting much credence in this. First of all, Fordham never proposed to go ABOVE 63 Scholarships, which is the only way they would be ineligible for the FCS playoffs (and FBS has never been in Fordham's plans).

Second, how could you justify to the FCS world at large as having them a league member and eligible for the playoffs but not the autobid? You'd in essence be saying the scholarships are an "unfair advantage" for the league title, but not the playoffs. What, the rest of the league isn't "good enough" to win? If that's the case, why just not give up the autobid and drop to D-III while we're at it?

Finally, can you picture that media day, explaining how Fordham is eligible for the FCS playoffs, is part of the league but not eligible for the league title? I don't think so.

I Agree--but you are also assuming people shpw up for PL media day.

[colorless raider]

As far as I can see, PL would have to find some before they could scratch them

You got it Rich!:D

[DFW HOYA]

Does anyone show up there outside of the Lehigh Valley papers?

[DFW HOYA]

I Agree--but you are also assuming people shpw up for PL media day.

Does anyone show up there outside of the Lehigh Valley papers?

[ngineer]

Does anyone show up there outside of the Lehigh Valley papers?

Only those wanting to golf at Green Pond CC.:D

[carney2]

Sounds strange, but think about it.

Does not affect 2009.

Fordham stays in the fold. And, Fordham would not have to go out into the cold, cruel world of football independence - yet.

Is "renegotiated" every year.

Just puts the whole scholarship situation on hold.

Suddenly, with the last point in focus, the whole thing looks very Patriot-esque. Never decide today when it can be put off until tomorrow. Would not surprise me in the least.

[RichH2]

Take it just a logical step forward, if true , you have a PL with a scholarship team in the fold , no matter how you phrase it each time merit aid comes up thereafter the anti postion is weaker and pro stronger. It is a different world then when HC joined the PL.

Only if PL comes up with a viable all sports member opposed to football merit aid will the anti merit aid votes win . This is too unstable a mix to last very long for either the PL or FU.

As I ve said before ,if this position is true, it is an untenable even medium term solution.

[hebmskebm]

As an outsider that knows there are pages and pages of PL scholly discussions on this board and elsewhere, I was wondering if somone could catch me up on which side of the fence each of the PL schools are on regards to the scholarship issue? I'm fairly certain G-town is against, but after that I'm in the dark.

[ngineer]

As an outsider that knows there are pages and pages of PL scholly discussions on this board and elsewhere, I was wondering if somone could catch me up on which side of the fence each of the PL schools are on regards to the scholarship issue? I'm fairly certain G-town is against, but after that I'm in the dark.

No one "really" knows. They should call us the Mushroom League where everyone is kept in the dark and fed manure. A bunch of us have speculated as to where each school is on the spectrum and many feel Colgate is strongly for (before their Prez skipped town), and Lehigh/Lafayette on the fence with Bucknell and HC hanging on a fence and G'town just hanging.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sounds strange, but think about it.

Does not affect 2009.

Fordham stays in the fold. And, Fordham would not have to go out into the cold, cruel world of football independence - yet.

Is "renegotiated" every year.

Just puts the whole scholarship situation on hold.

Suddenly, with the last point in focus, the whole thing looks very Patriot-esque. Never decide today when it can be put off until tomorrow. Would not surprise me in the least.

Wouldn't a more "Patriot-esque" response be to kick Fordham out because a critical mass wouldn't be reached on scholarships, and when Lehigh and Colgate finally say "enough" then flail around for members in an effort to keep the league together, ending up with a forced decision on allowing scholarships and hurriedly pulling Northeastern in as a seventh member - but too late to keep Fordham, who is now in the Big South? I think that's a more likely solution than what's been said here - not that I'd like that to happen, but it's more likely than this solution IMO.

My problem with this far-fetched solution is that it completely violates the integrity of being a league. It's one thing to do a favor for a school which is in the transition period to D-I - it's quite another to pull together a solution which penalizes a school for doing what the great majority of other schools do in the subdivision and cheapens the whole model on which the league is based. Like RichH said so well, what happens when an ineligible Fordham team goes 10-1 but the autobid goes to a 7-4 Colgate team that lost to Fordham 41-3? How exactly does that benefit the league? It benefits Fordham, sure - but it benefits the PL not at all.

[ngineer]

Wouldn't a more "Patriot-esque" response be to kick Fordham out because a critical mass wouldn't be reached on scholarships, and when Lehigh and Colgate finally say "enough" then flail around for members in an effort to keep the league together, ending up with a forced decision on allowing scholarships and hurriedly pulling Northeastern in as a seventh member - but too late to keep Fordham, who is now in the Big South? I think that's a more likely solution than what's been said here - not that I'd like that to happen, but it's more likely than this solution IMO.

My problem with this far-fetched solution is that it completely violates the integrity of being a league. It's one thing to do a favor for a school which is in the transition period to D-I - it's quite another to pull together a solution which penalizes a school for doing what the great majority of other schools do in the subdivision and cheapens the whole model on which the league is based. Like RichH said so well, what happens when an ineligible Fordham team goes 10-1 but the autobid goes to a 7-4 Colgate team that lost to Fordham 41-3? How exactly does that benefit the league? It benefits Fordham, sure - but it benefits the PL not at all.

That's what happens when you take the easy way out.

[RichH2]

"easy way out" hopefully the powers that be will avoid this quagmire. Pl ,as LFN noted, cannot win as a conference with any variation of this scenario . If FU wont abide the AI w/o merit aid for football then all of this turmoil is rather pointless. The issue is simply Will PL allow athletic aid for football and if so how much and how quickly? If no lets wish FU well and move on. The next Q and in some ways more important one is what will GU do with its program. W/o added funding the program cannot and will not develop any consistent ability to compete. Ifthe new AD downsizes, ala Davidson, what does the PL do?
We will need at least one more school for football. Who w/o schollies ? Short answer , NO ONE.

[ngineer]

"easy way out" hopefully the powers that be will avoid this quagmire. Pl ,as LFN noted, cannot win as a conference with any variation of this scenario . If FU wont abide the AI w/o merit aid for football then all of this turmoil is rather pointless. The issue is simply Will PL allow athletic aid for football and if so how much and how quickly? If no lets wish FU well and move on. The next Q and in some ways more important one is what will GU do with its program. W/o added funding the program cannot and will not develop any consistent ability to compete. Ifthe new AD downsizes, ala Davidson, what does the PL do?
We will need at least one more school for football. Who w/o schollies ? Short answer , NO ONE.

If no schollies, then the only near term resolution is to bring in either Marist, Duquesne, Monmouth, or an upgrading Johns Hopkins (very unlikely).

[aceinthehole]

If no schollies, then the only near term resolution is to bring in either Marist, Duquesne, Monmouth, or an upgrading Johns Hopkins (very unlikely).

Why would Duquesne or Monmouth leave the NEC now that we have the AQ? Couldn't they spend far less in 30-40 scholarships in the NEC, rather than 50+ grants-in-aid and have a better chance to go to the playoffs? The cost and road to the playoffs in the PL would be much harder for them in the PL.

Duquense has no interest in leaving the A-10 in other sports, so I doubt their is much the PL can offer the Dukes.

On the other hand, I'm sure Monmouth would accept a full-membership offer from the PL, however is the league willing to accept a "lesser" academic member in all sports, just to "save" football?

Marist is likely the most willing to take a FB-only offer from the PL, but according to many PL fans they don't bring much in academics or football. So is it really worth it?

Interesting decisions for the PL ...

[RichH2]

That would sort of harken back to Towson, we all recall how well that worked. Hopkins is the only one with any academic cred, but no sports other than lacrosse, which would indeed make the PL ne of the best Lacrosse conferences. The other 3 would have to upgrade football. Not sure but dont some of these already give some merit aid in football?

[TheValleyRaider]

Hopkins is the only one with any academic cred, but no sports other than lacrosse, which would indeed make the PL ne of the best Lacrosse conferences.

And that would be only if Hopkins was even willing to give up being and Independant in Lacrosse. As much as, in a perfect world, I'd love JHU, the PL is in no position to make those kinds of demands on prospective members

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If Hopkins were an option, the PL would grab them in a heartbeat - great lacrosse, built-in rivalries with Navy (and Georgetown in football), great facilities. The only way they move up is if the "Dayton Rule" is extended to lacrosse, forcing JHU to be D-I. Don't discount it happening someday, but for now I don't think there is any movement on that front. Even if it happens there would be some pain for JHU football as they go from D-III to D-I.

RPI is another option with the same issues - great hockey, great new facilities on the way - and also probably one that would be a natural for the PL should they elect to move up from D-III. But the PL doesn't sponsor hockey, the sport for which RPI brings the most value. IMO, there's not as much synergy for RPI as their is for Hopkins.

Duquesne would be a far-flung football affiliate, and Marist is a good athletic add, but who knows if they're willing to upgrade to scholarship football. But both would pose questions about their ability to bring their academics in line with PL "standards".

That leaves only a few other start-up options. One is Loyola (MD), who is D-I and could elect to leave the MAAC and start up football. They bring better lacrosse, too, adding good overall value to the PL. Another is NJIT, who is desperate for a league and seems to want to start-up football - but isn't close academically. Another is Davidson (not really a start-up), who was a founding member of the league - but they'd have to ramp up from non-scholarship to scholarship football, something they seem unwilling to do. Plus they're really far-flung.

Those are the only ones that IMO might consider the PL model. But add scholarships and the seas open up.

* Possibilities for Hofstra, Villanova, Northeastern, William & Mary and/or Richmond in some sort of CAA/A-10/Big East shakeup
* Liberty and/or VMI, who could leave the Big South and join the PL with scholarships intact
* You could ask Duquesne, Bryant, or Monmouth to join the PL with scholarships intact

If I'm in the PL, I'm asking myself: which set of possible expansion candidates are better? And which one allows you to keep Fordham, too?

[thefortyniner]

More evidence that it is again time for the return of the Atlantic 10 to football.

Semi-related...

Fordham fans, are there any plans to replace/rennovate Rose Hill Gym? Please....?

[carney2]

As an outsider that knows there are pages and pages of PL scholly discussions on this board and elsewhere, I was wondering if somone could catch me up on which side of the fence each of the PL schools are on regards to the scholarship issue? I'm fairly certain G-town is against, but after that I'm in the dark.

The repression, decession, or whatever it is being called these days has changed everything. How they lined up a year, or even six months ago, is no longer relevant. My read on this at the moment is

FOR SCHOLARSHIPS: Fordham

AGAINST SCHOLARSHIPS: Everyone else.

You can pretty much count on this holding steady until the schools begin to emerge from "tough times." At that point the deck may very well be reshuffled because (naming only a few points):

Colgate, supposedly a major supporter of football scholarships, will be under new leadership.

Lafayette, always regarded as a fairly strong "me too" if they felt the current sweeping toward scholarships, has been beating mercilessly on the Athletic Department in an attempt to solve its financial problems. The President of the College is emerging as a faculty toady and no friend of football.

These two were considered probably the strongest advocates of merit aid for football and, in my opinion, neither is rock solid reliable in the future.

My opinion is that, if true, the "let Fordham do what they want, but keep them in the League" approach is a positive step toward scholarships. In the end, the financial problems ease and Fordham either cashes in its chips or becomes the leader of the pack - and others have to begin playing their game to keep up.

[JD51]

That leaves only a few other start-up options. One is Loyola (MD), who is D-I and could elect to leave the MAAC and start up football. They bring better lacrosse, too, adding good overall value to the PL. Another is NJIT, who is desperate for a league and seems to want to start-up football - but isn't close academically. Another is Davidson (not really a start-up), who was a founding member of the league - but they'd have to ramp up from non-scholarship to scholarship football, something they seem unwilling to do. Plus they're really far-flung.

I'm sure Loyola would gladly jump from the MAAC to the PL in the unlikely event that they start up football, but would they be so willing to give up the lacrosse affiliation with the ECAC (Big East next year)? In basketball and lacrosse the PL doesn't offer Loyola any great incentive when considered with the $$ of starting football. From the PL perspective there is the same question of Loyola needing to upgrade academics.

Best of luck to the PL, there are just no easy answers for you given the status quo.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm sure Loyola would gladly jump from the MAAC to the PL in the unlikely event that they start up football, but would they be so willing to give up the lacrosse affiliation with the ECAC (Big East next year)? In basketball and lacrosse the PL doesn't offer Loyola any great incentive when considered with the $$ of starting football. From the PL perspective there is the same question of Loyola needing to upgrade academics.

Best of luck to the PL, there are just no easy answers for you given the status quo.

Loyola isn't going to be brought into Big East Lacrosse; they're going to be a part of the new ECAC Lacrosse monstrosity that features Quinnipiac, Ohio State, Air Force, Bellarmine and Denver (along with existing members Hobart and Fairfield).

They can either choose to stay in the continental ECAC, downgrade to MAAC Lacrosse and stay in the MAAC, or move to the Patriot which is a good balance between nationally-ranked teams (Bucknell, Navy) and is actually more regional that either the ECAC or MAAC. Granted, the ECAC has some heavyweights in it, but how willing are Ohio State or Denver fans to make the flight to Maryland to watch games?

[aceinthehole]

Loyola isn't going to be brought into Big East Lacrosse; they're going to be a part of the new ECAC Lacrosse monstrosity that features Quinnipiac, Ohio State, Air Force, Bellarmine and Denver (along with existing members Hobart and Fairfield).

They can either choose to stay in the continental ECAC, downgrade to MAAC Lacrosse and stay in the MAAC, or move to the Patriot which is a good balance between nationally-ranked teams (Bucknell, Navy) and is actually more regional that either the ECAC or MAAC. Granted, the ECAC has some heavyweights in it, but how willing are Ohio State or Denver fans to make the flight to Maryland to watch games?

QU is only staying one more year in the ECAC, then they will join the NEC for 2010-11, when Bryant becomes D-I eligible.

http://www.northeastconference.org/news/general/2008/5/15/MLAX-FormationRelease-5-15-08.asp?path=general

[Lehigh Football Nation]

QU is only staying one more year in the ECAC, then they will join the NEC for 2010-11, when Bryant becomes D-I eligible.

http://www.northeastconference.org/news/general/2008/5/15/MLAX-FormationRelease-5-15-08.asp?path=general

Thanks - even more instability, then, for ECAC Lacrosse. You can add to that Hobart, who came very very close to disbanding last season, too. Someone can confirm, but I think you need a minimum of seven members for a tournament autobid for Lacrosse?

And, seriously, how long can this conference last?

[JD51]

Loyola isn't going to be brought into Big East Lacrosse; they're going to be a part of the new ECAC Lacrosse monstrosity that features Quinnipiac, Ohio State, Air Force, Bellarmine and Denver (along with existing members Hobart and Fairfield).

They can either choose to stay in the continental ECAC, downgrade to MAAC Lacrosse and stay in the MAAC, or move to the Patriot which is a good balance between nationally-ranked teams (Bucknell, Navy) and is actually more regional that either the ECAC or MAAC. Granted, the ECAC has some heavyweights in it, but how willing are Ohio State or Denver fans to make the flight to Maryland to watch games?

I see your point - if they remain in that conglomeration that is ECAC and former Great West LL teams then the PL would be a nice option. The other matters of fit with the PL still apply - no football, academic standards, etc...Suffice to say - as has been noted ad nauseam - there is just no easy fit among the current D I options that will meet most PL criteria in the existing conditions.

[Go...gate]

This seems to be getting more and more troubling, especially given the PL's characteristic inaction and secrecy.

[UAalum72]

Also for ECAC lax instability, the MAAC is now increasing the allowed scholarships and will be fully funded by 2011 or 12, at which time they may force both Loyola and Fairfield to join the home conference.

[Jackman]

Thanks - even more instability, then, for ECAC Lacrosse. You can add to that Hobart, who came very very close to disbanding last season, too. Someone can confirm, but I think you need a minimum of seven members for a tournament autobid for Lacrosse?

And, seriously, how long can this conference last?

You need 6 members to be eligible for a men's lacrosse autobid.

Overview of the massive conference movements in men's lax coming in 2010:

Syracuse: Independent to Big East
Georgetown: ECAC to Big East
Rutgers: ECAC to Big East
St. John's: ECAC to Big East
Villanova: CAA to Big East
Notre Dame: GWLL to Big East
Providence: MAAC to Big East

Bryant: Independent to NEC
Sacred Heart: CAA to NEC
Robert Morris: CAA to NEC
Quinnipiac: GWLL to NEC
Mt. St. Marys: MAAC to NEC
Wagner: MAAC to NEC

UMass: ECAC to CAA
Penn State: ECAC to CAA

Ohio State: GWLL to ECAC
Air Force: GWLL to ECAC
Denver: GWLL to ECAC
Bellarmine (Ky.): GWLL to ECAC

Detroit: Independent to MAAC

Final Result after shift:

Big East (7): as listed above
NEC (6): as listed above
CAA (6): UMass, Penn State, Hofstra, Towson, Delaware, Drexel
ECAC (7): Loyola, Hobart, Fairfield, Ohio State, Bellarmine, Air Force, Denver
MAAC (7): VMI, Marist, St. Joseph's, Siena, Manhattan, Canisius, Detroit
Independents: Johns Hopkins and Presbyterian
GWLL (0): dead

Unchanged: ACC, Ivy, America East and Patriot

[RichH2]

Lacrosse is nice but it is not enuf for most fans to define a conference, certainly not the PL, which is a very good lacrosse league with Navy BU army Lehigh etc.
PL has stated that an all sports member is what they want. Which school among those mentioned in this thread fits that bill if we stay non scholarship and which if we go merit aid?

[ngineer]

Lacrosse is nice but it is not enuf for most fans to define a conference, certainly not the PL, which is a very good lacrosse league with Navy BU army Lehigh etc.
PL has stated that an all sports member is what they want. Which school among those mentioned in this thread fits that bill if we stay non scholarship and which if we go merit aid?

Johns Hopkins would fit the bill if they moved up from D-III (D-I in lacrosse).

[turbodean]

Perhaps the PL should tell Fordham... If you agree to bring in a men's LAX team then we'll let you go w scholies in football. Then make scholies an option for affiliate members (at the institution's discretion). might also help the PL attract another affiliate in football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Perhaps the PL should tell Fordham... If you agree to bring in a men's LAX team then we'll let you go w scholies in football. Then make scholies an option for affiliate members (at the institution's discretion). might also help the PL attract another affiliate in football.

A great idea - though it requires Fordham headed to the Patriot League in all sports :D

Seriously, that's an interesting quid pro quo - affiliate LAX (with schollies) in exchange for football schollies. However, Masella intimated in his infamous comments that the quid pro quo was AI reform in exchange for football schollies - if that was broken (and if it's true), it might be a tough sell if it's seen as the responding to the PL's "breaking of an agreement" with another agreement.

But it's interesting since it would strengthen both sports. In addition, Lax is a Title IX-neutral sport since there's both men's and women's.

[DFW HOYA]

However, Masella intimated in his infamous comments that the quid pro quo was AI reform in exchange for football schollies - if that was broken (and if it's true), it might be a tough sell if it's seen as the responding to the PL's "breaking of an agreement" with another agreement.

The PL got AI reform, it just wasn't the reform that works best for Fordham. As the lowest AI school, Fordham got a net "plus" from the old system and the plus won't be there anymore.

[Fordham]

The PL got AI reform, it just wasn't the reform that works best for Fordham. As the lowest AI school, Fordham got a net "plus" from the old system and the plus won't be there anymore. xrolleyesx
same old, same old.

I've asked this of you pretty much every time there has been an AI discussion. Please tell me how the AI changes moved the PL closer towards the stated goal of the AI?

[CollegeSportsInfo]

You need 6 members to be eligible for a men's lacrosse autobid.

Overview of the massive conference movements in men's lax coming in 2010:

Syracuse: Independent to Big East
Georgetown: ECAC to Big East
Rutgers: ECAC to Big East
St. John's: ECAC to Big East
Villanova: CAA to Big East
Notre Dame: GWLL to Big East
Providence: MAAC to Big East

Bryant: Independent to NEC
Sacred Heart: CAA to NEC
Robert Morris: CAA to NEC
Quinnipiac: GWLL to NEC
Mt. St. Marys: MAAC to NEC
Wagner: MAAC to NEC

UMass: ECAC to CAA
Penn State: ECAC to CAA

Ohio State: GWLL to ECAC
Air Force: GWLL to ECAC
Denver: GWLL to ECAC
Bellarmine (Ky.): GWLL to ECAC

Detroit: Independent to MAAC

Final Result after shift:

Big East (7): as listed above
NEC (6): as listed above
CAA (6): UMass, Penn State, Hofstra, Towson, Delaware, Drexel
ECAC (7): Loyola, Hobart, Fairfield, Ohio State, Bellarmine, Air Force, Denver
MAAC (7): VMI, Marist, St. Joseph's, Siena, Manhattan, Canisius, Detroit
Independents: Johns Hopkins and Presbyterian
GWLL (0): dead

Unchanged: ACC, Ivy, America East and Patriot

Fairly certain that the NEC moves don't happen until 2011, so the NEC schools in other conferences are their for a year.

[RichH2]

I wonder whether the PL will ever consider making a consistent all sport aid plan. Now aid is permitted in all sports but football. Some schools i.e. give lacrosse schollies others dont. A permissive system. Could this work in football? I doubt it . Altho it does seem to be working ,I think, in other sports

[DFW HOYA]

xrolleyesx
same old, same old.

I've asked this of you pretty much every time there has been an AI discussion. Please tell me how the AI changes moved the PL closer towards the stated goal of the AI?

The changes I understand them established an index that applies to all schools equally, not on a school by school basis. Fordham benefited from a lower average than the other six and now will (at least for now, anyway) recruit from a consistent league-wide pool.

[carney2]

Johns Hopkins would fit the bill if they moved up from D-III (D-I in lacrosse).

The NCAA Has decreed no movement to D-I until, I think, 2014.

How did this degenerate into a discussion about lacrosse?!! Talk about the tail wagging the dog,... Gawd, lacrosse isn't even the last hair on that tail. Totally irrelevant.

[jimbo65]

The changes I understand them established an index that applies to all schools equally, not on a school by school basis. Fordham benefited from a lower average than the other six and now will (at least for now, anyway) recruit from a consistent league-wide pool.


This is the best explanation I've seen of the rule change. IMO it most certainly disadvantages FU from where they were. The reality is that the academic achievement of the general student body at FU is not the equal of the other members (fortunately for Gtown, there aren't that many basketball players:D): Whether it was directed at Fordham or directed to enhance the academic "integrity" of PL fball is immaterial. The administrators of the PL schools are living a dream. That's fine but we should depart ASAP.

As another poster to this thread wrote, the rumored "solution" is bogus. If FU gives fball schollies to whoever it wants, within a few years you could have a scenario where we beat the eventual PL Champ by four TDs yey they get the auto bid. On the downside for Fordham, suppose we give the schollies and lose to the eventual PL champ by four tds. Either way, not a good thing.

[RichH2]

Agreed Jimbo, solution , if true, resolves nothing, and creates additional issues such as those already mentioned. We all should remember HC when they joined and dominated PLfor yrs until their schollie kids graduated.It would take FU some time to build such a squad but if they did I have o desire to relive that scenario.

[DFW HOYA]

For the record, I think the entire academic index concept is an anacronism. Set a standard (e.g., a 1000 or more on the SAT, top 20% of high school class, etc.) and let the schools honor it without the gilded cage that the AI has become. This isn't the Ivy League.

[ngineer]

For the record, I think the entire academic index concept is an anacronism. Set a standard (e.g., a 1000 or more on the SAT, top 20% of high school class, etc.) and let the schools honor it without the gilded cage that the AI has become. This isn't the Ivy League.

I tend to agree with you. In an effort to so fine-tuned to the academic profile of each campus, I think we have are looking at all the trees and not the forest. In this time of score and grade inflation, I'd go with a minimum SAT of 1200 along with the top 20% of graduation class. GPAs as raw scores are meaningless.

[ngineer]

The NCAA Has decreed no movement to D-I until, I think, 2014.

How did this degenerate into a discussion about lacrosse?!! Talk about the tail wagging the dog,... Gawd, lacrosse isn't even the last hair on that tail. Totally irrelevant.

Forgot about the moratorium....In that case we're stuck with Marist or Duquesne--but I don't know if the 'Dukes' would be willing to 'downgrade' their basketball program, although they never really do much in their current conference. Their roundball 'hay day' is long gone. They've been playing some PL and Ivy schools over the past five years.

[TheValleyRaider]

I wonder whether the PL will ever consider making a consistent all sport aid plan. Now aid is permitted in all sports but football. Some schools i.e. give lacrosse schollies others dont. A permissive system. Could this work in football? I doubt it . Altho it does seem to be working ,I think, in other sports

I still think this will be the eventual "decision" (if we can call what the League office does a decision), with the outcome someday being that all schools will go scholarship to keep pace xtwocentsx

The real question is will that news come soon enough for Fordham to leave/stay, or for the League to get a suitable replacement (what they deem to be suitable is, of course, quite another question) xchinscratchx

[Go...gate]

For the record, I think the entire academic index concept is an anacronism. Set a standard (e.g., a 1000 or more on the SAT, top 20% of high school class, etc.) and let the schools honor it without the gilded cage that the AI has become. This isn't the Ivy League.

Most of the former Division I "Major Independents" who got together to form the PL actually did a form of this before the league became realty. Remember too that the Ivy did not use an AI for many years as well.

[RichH2]

The problem even with our squeaky clean PL is that a broad top 20% parameter while easy to enforce is easier to violate, as has happened in the past in our perfect little world