Georgetown Attrition

[HoyaMetanoia]

At Georgetown, we know losses. Both of the on the field and off the field type. And while attrition is a common part of any college football program, Georgetown has experienced more of it than most of its peer institutions.

This year appears to be no different. After checking out the spring roster and working the phones, the attrition numbers appear to be down as a whole. However, it also appears that we've had some pretty serious defections. For all you Patriot League foes who were shivering in their boots while thinking about their upcoming matchup with Georgetown this season (you too, Richmond), here is a rundown of what the attrition is looking like for next year:

Mychal Harrison (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/harrison_mychal00.html): Highly regarded recruit from two years ago out of Atlanta. From the same HS as former UF QB Cameron Newton. Started as a slot back the past two years but is reportedly transferring to Morehouse College.

Enico Jones: (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/jones_enico00.html): CB that played significant snaps as a freshman and started a number of games as a sophomore. Not on the spring roster and not expected to return.

Chancellor Logan: (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/logan_chancellor00.html) Freshman RB that got significant time as both an RB and slot back this year. If truly a victim of attrition, this is a big loss. The kid could make plays and we needed it at the RB spot.

Nicholas White: (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/white_nicholas00.html) Big freshman TE. Came in as a QB. Didn't appear to get many snaps this year, but looks like he had the frame to contribute down the line.

Brandon Basso: (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/basso_brandon00.html) Post grad DE out of NY that was injured all of last year. Undersized, but played in two decent HS programs and was an All-State selection in NY. Unclear whether he was unable to recover from his injury, quit, or simply took the spring off in order to recover in time for the fall.

Scott Coffman: (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/coffman_scott00.html) LB out of TX that missed the whole year due to injury. Big contributor as a freshman and sophomore. Unclear whether he is going to be return for the fall after recovering from his injury.

Brice Plebani: (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/plebani_brice00.html) QB out of DC. Stuck in the 5 QB blender that is Georgetown football, it's unclear whether he was any better than our other underclassman QBs. Did not get significant time this fall. Maybe he's going to play for our struggling basketball team (AAU teammate of Kevin Durant according to his profile).

Justin Thomas: (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/thomas_justin00.html) Another slot back out of Atlanta that appeared in a number of games as a freshman and sophomore, but appears not to be returning for his junior year. Had big time HS stats, but didn't break out as a Hoya.

Mark Faison: (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/faison_mark00.html): Slot back/DB out of TX. Won the Texas 4A state championship as a Sr. alongside Oregon State's James Rodgers and Jacquizz Rodgers. Did not get significant time this year amongst the slot back log jam, but appeared to be a DB coming out of HS. No word on why he chose not to return.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Until Georgetown makes a commitment to football this should continue. The lack of a stadium, fan and administrative support is just too much to over come. Hoya fans can continue to tout what a great school Georgetown is but those kids have plenty of options to gain both a great education as well as play for a top shelf program. FCS is a high level of football and unless Georgetown makes the effort to upgrade their program i don't see why they still compete. They're fighting a losing battle. Either spend the money or drop the program. When Georgetown entered the PL all you heard was how the Hoyas would be one of the top programs within a couple years. Eight years later and Georgetown is one of the worst programs overall (fan support, money spent, facilities) in all of FCS.

[ngineer]

I agree. As I have said before, I remember Lembo saying back in 2000 that G'town was a sleeping giant. That with the national reputation, all they had to do was provide equivalent facilities and similar aid and they'd be a power to be reckoned with. I think the administration has to decide to ***** or get off the pot and return to D-III.

[danefan]

I agree. As I have said before, I remember Lembo saying back in 2000 that G'town was a sleeping giant. That with the national reputation, all they had to do was provide equivalent facilities and similar aid and they'd be a power to be reckoned with. I think the administration has to decide to ***** or get off the pot and return to D-III.

Correction - it would be ***** or get off the pot and drop football. There's no going back to DIII. They would have done it already.

And as a PL fan you better hope they don't drop football. That will leave you with 5 teams in 2010 (after Fordham leaves) and without an AQ.

[ngineer]

G'town dropping out or down might be the impetus the PL needs to get its act together. Possible that they're the anchor holding back the league from going forward with any kind of reform on the scholarship/grant issue? I would love to see G'town get its act together and make this a fully balanced league from top to bottom. It belongs in the PL if it wants to play football.

[Go...gate]

Let's see.

Drop Fordham and Georgetown and add Hofstra and Marist and where do we really stand?

PL All-Sports - 10 teams
American
Army
Bucknell
Colgate
Hofstra
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Marist
Navy

PL Football - 7 teams
Bucknell
Colgate
Hofstra
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Marist

Very interesting. xchinscratchx

[DFW HOYA]

Appreciate all the support from all our friends at Lehigh. If it wasn't for the gold helmets, I thought I was at the Holy Cross board. xlolx

[carney2]

Possible that they're the anchor holding back the league from going forward with any kind of reform on the scholarship/grant issue?

They may not be supportive, but they are not the determining factor either way.

[DFW HOYA]

I'll pass on the faint praise from the Lehigh fans but want to address the concept of attrition vs. turnover.

In most cases over the last nine years, Georgetown has lost a handful of players by the natural process of turnover rather than the loss of core elements by attrition. There have been some notable losses to the GU segment (I don't think the GU offense has been the same since QB Alondzo Turner left after one year, nor was the move by QB Ben Hostetler to lacrosse a positive one) but Georgetown is not exactly losing all-league players either. And what's more important, in almost all cases, players that leave tend to stay in school and graduate--a 966 APR is evidence of that.

As to the players listed above, Harrison is a moderate loss, but with 8 carries for 16 yards last season, he was probably behind at least six RB's entering 2009, as was Logan, with 85 yards all season. Many of the other players mentioned either didn't play at all (Plebani, Faison, Basso, the latter of which may return), or had minimal impact (Nick White: 1 game, 1 tackle).

It's an easy refrain to say that Georgetown should spend more money--other than Fordham, what PL team doesn't want to spend more? When Carney's recruiting profile of the Hoyas comes out, it is probably going to be a step back from prior recruiting years--not because of the Multi-Sport Field nor the fan support which still fills 80% of capacity every game, but the sheer fact that one and two win teams with stagnant offenses (averaging 9.6 points per game) aren't going to attract impact talent no matter where you play. (27 points in the last four games of the 2008 season does not a recruiting pitch make.)

Lots of reasons for this, of course, not all financial. PL fans have to look beyond the budget and ask them why Georgetown's talent on the field comes out flat in a lot of games and why it can get down so quickly. How many starters on Georgetown would start on your team? Put another way, how many PL coaches are seriously worried about playing the Hoyas in 2009 given the personnel and the style of play?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It's an easy refrain to say that Georgetown should spend more money--other than Fordham, what PL team doesn't want to spend more? When Carney's recruiting profile of the Hoyas comes out, it is probably going to be a step back from prior recruiting years--not because of the Multi-Sport Field nor the fan support which still fills 80% of capacity every game, but the sheer fact that one and two win teams with stagnant offenses (averaging 9.6 points per game) aren't going to attract impact talent no matter where you play. (27 points in the last four games of the 2008 season does not a recruiting pitch make.)

Lots of reasons for this, of course, not all financial. PL fans have to look beyond the budget and ask them why Georgetown's talent on the field comes out flat in a lot of games and why it can get down so quickly. How many starters on Georgetown would start on your team? Put another way, how many PL coaches are seriously worried about playing the Hoyas in 2009 given the personnel and the style of play?

DFW you just don't get it. The reason you're offense is anemic is you can't recruit enough players to compete at this level. You simply won't accept the fact that Georgetowns lack of support for the program is the number one factor. You can't get over the fact that the all mighty "Georgetown" name is not enough to attract the type of players required to play at a competitive level in FCS. Why in world would an intelligent talented football player pick Georgetown over Villanova, William & Mary, Richmond, Furman, Lehigh, Lafayette, Princeton, Harvard etc? They'll get more money, either a full ride or aid, have much better facilities and play for a winning program. Like i keep saying this is a high level of play. The football decision means a lot of these kids. A kid serious about football and his future has a lot better choices than Georgetown.

I'm not trying to devalue a Georgetown degree but that's all the Hoya fans hang their hat on. After 8 years is not painfully obvious that the alure of Georgetown is not enough to attract the type of players neccessary to play in the PL? You can keep complaining about the 9.7 points per game and how it puts off prospective athlets but you're fooling yourself. You could put Vince Lombardi at coach but unless the school supports the program it isn't going to matter.

There simply is no football culture at Georgetown. There's no tailgating, no real stadium, locker rooms??, real press box? You can talk about what happend in the 1930's all you want but you ask 100 people on the street about Hoya football and you'll get 100 people giving you funny looks. Most people i know are knowledgable about football don't even know Georgetown has a football team. Yet they know about Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Holy Cross etc. Georgetown needs to completely rebuild the program from the ground up to be successful.

Georgetown football is to the PL as Fordham hoops is to the A10. The Ram fans have been trying to convince themselves for 15 years that the attraction of playing in NYC was going to be the golden nugget to attract players capable of competing in the conference. However, it is no coincidence they have the worst facilities in the league as well as budget that's well below their peers. Ram fans now have gotten it and they finally realize changes have to be made.

[ngineer]

I'll pass on the faint praise from the Lehigh fans but want to address the concept of attrition vs. turnover.

In most cases over the last nine years, Georgetown has lost a handful of players by the natural process of turnover rather than the loss of core elements by attrition. There have been some notable losses to the GU segment (I don't think the GU offense has been the same since QB Alondzo Turner left after one year, nor was the move by QB Ben Hostetler to lacrosse a positive one) but Georgetown is not exactly losing all-league players either. And what's more important, in almost all cases, players that leave tend to stay in school and graduate--a 966 APR is evidence of that.

As to the players listed above, Harrison is a moderate loss, but with 8 carries for 16 yards last season, he was probably behind at least six RB's entering 2009, as was Logan, with 85 yards all season. Many of the other players mentioned either didn't play at all (Plebani, Faison, Basso, the latter of which may return), or had minimal impact (Nick White: 1 game, 1 tackle).

It's an easy refrain to say that Georgetown should spend more money--other than Fordham, what PL team doesn't want to spend more? When Carney's recruiting profile of the Hoyas comes out, it is probably going to be a step back from prior recruiting years--not because of the Multi-Sport Field nor the fan support which still fills 80% of capacity every game, but the sheer fact that one and two win teams with stagnant offenses (averaging 9.6 points per game) aren't going to attract impact talent no matter where you play. (27 points in the last four games of the 2008 season does not a recruiting pitch make.)

Lots of reasons for this, of course, not all financial. PL fans have to look beyond the budget and ask them why Georgetown's talent on the field comes out flat in a lot of games and why it can get down so quickly. How many starters on Georgetown would start on your team? Put another way, how many PL coaches are seriously worried about playing the Hoyas in 2009 given the personnel and the style of play?

I guess what is curious to me is, what timetable was the Georgetown administration giving itself when it decided to join the PL in terms of becoming competitive? One would think when the decision to jump from D-III to the PL was made, they had some kind of plan in terms of facilities upgrades and money for grants in aid that would eventually approach the rest of the PL standards? Ten years, 15, 20..??

[HoyaMetanoia]

As to the players listed above, Harrison is a moderate loss, but with 8 carries for 16 yards last season, he was probably behind at least six RB's entering 2009, as was Logan, with 85 yards all season. Many of the other players mentioned either didn't play at all (Plebani, Faison, Basso, the latter of which may return), or had minimal impact (Nick White: 1 game, 1 tackle).


I think Harrison, Logan, and Jones are all major losses. All starters at different points in the season and all were contributors beginning as freshmen. In fact, I'm pretty sure Logan, Jones and Harrison would all have started the season as starters (with Logan splitting time with Wade/Houghton in the backfield). The others I can't say so much about.

Thomas appeared to have the talent, and his HS numbers back it up, but fell by the way side somehow. His loss also hurts because you're running very low on slot guys beyond Rob Lane with these defections.

Plebani was one of the few QBs (along with two of the new freshmen that came in as QBs and switched to TE/WR and Newman, the Sr.) who didn't get much play last year, so there's not much to go on there, except that Brady and Stafford are both very promising. Although, with his multi-sport background, you think you might be able to use the kid elsewhere.

White was a former QB, converted to TE with a frame that probably could've even held more weight. Again, a seemingly good athlete with good size who you lose. This especially hurts since we don't have a legitimate TE coming back. I'm surprised to see he recorded a tackle. I was under the impression that he didn't take a snap last year.

Faison puzzled me, because as a HS player on a very good HS team, he played almost strictly defense. Then he comes here and gets lost in the slot mix without any snaps on the defensive side of the ball and a number in the 40s. I don't know what the plan was there.

Some of this is turnover, you could say, but all had promise and on top of that you're losing at least 3 potential starters. Losing a QB, not a big deal right now. But losing all these slot guys? Not good for the offense we're trying to run.

And this is only the spring attrition. Wait until fall camp and I think you'll see a few more names added to this list.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I wouldn't read too far into the "attrition". All Patriot League schools "lose" players since they decide that the team wasn't for them, that they just want to concentrate on academics (which happens more often than people think) or (very rarely) that they want to transfer. As DFW pointed out, G'Town's high APR rating shows that these kids may not be playing football, but most of the time they're remaining as students and making progress towards graduation.

Also, folks pointed out the huge volume of QBs and RBs. in the 2007 class - there were bound to be kids that dropped out. And heck, who is Lehigh to throw stones? We just "lost" a QB last year that had time on the varsity squad - nobody complained about "attrition" then.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Another thing I forgot to mention in my original post is that, once again, we lost a player to the lacrosse team. That's, what, 4 years running that that has happened? I have to imagine the football coaches and lacrosse coaches can't exactly be on good terms.

[Fordham]

...It's an easy refrain to say that Georgetown should spend more money--other than Fordham, what PL team doesn't want to spend more? ...xbangx xrotatehx xrolleyesx

[Fordham]

Georgetown football is to the PL as Fordham hoops is to the A10. The Ram fans have been trying to convince themselves for 15 years that the attraction of playing in NYC was going to be the golden nugget to attract players capable of competing in the conference. However, it is no coincidence they have the worst facilities in the league as well as budget that's well below their peers. Ram fans now have gotten it and they finally realize changes have to be made.
Interesting comparison.

[CFBfan]

Another thing I forgot to mention in my original post is that, once again, we lost a player to the lacrosse team. That's, what, 4 years running that that has happened? I have to imagine the football coaches and lacrosse coaches can't exactly be on good terms.

Wow!! HM.....you really sound bitter towards the GTown football program. If you look at any football program 1A thru D3 you will find kids leaving the team for all the reasons you list: other programs beacause they aren't happy in the one they are in now, to focus on academics (especialy if they aren't getting playing time) to play a differnent sport at the same school, etc.
We all know the short commings of Hoya football but you seem a bit over the top, especialy for and alledged fan! Just IMO

[colorless raider]

G'town dropping out or down might be the impetus the PL needs to get its act together. Possible that they're the anchor holding back the league from going forward with any kind of reform on the scholarship/grant issue? I would love to see G'town get its act together and make this a fully balanced league from top to bottom. It belongs in the PL if it wants to play football.

I am with you on that one. We don't want to lose the automatic bid!

[HoyaMetanoia]

Wow!! HM.....you really sound bitter towards the GTown football program. If you look at any football program 1A thru D3 you will find kids leaving the team for all the reasons you list: other programs beacause they aren't happy in the one they are in now, to focus on academics (especialy if they aren't getting playing time) to play a differnent sport at the same school, etc.
We all know the short commings of Hoya football but you seem a bit over the top, especialy for and alledged fan! Just IMO

My original point on attrition wasn't any shot at the program, it was just a summary of who we lost and what role they played before.

The lacrosse thing is weird to me. It's almost like kids are using Hoya football to get into the school and then get on to the lacrosse program. It's also a questionable tactic by the lacrosse coaching staff, as few of the lacrosse/football changeovers have been significant contributors to the lacrosse program.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Add Bernard Muir to the list...

[CFBfan]

Add Bernard Muir to the list...

very discouraging as Kelly and his staff referenced Muir to recruits as a big advocate for the football program and a big reason why they were going to be able to turn the program around with his support....now what????

Are there any candidates?

[LBPop]

Add Bernard Muir to the list...

This is the first I heard of this. I had the opportunity to speak one-on-one with Bernard a few times and also with Coach Kelly. Without going into extensive detail, I think this may lead to a significant change in the football situation at Georgetown...and it could go either way. Here are a few bullet points:


Bernard Muir is a very bright and very ambitious man. He seemed visibly frustrated both privately and publicly when discussing football at Georgetown. I have always suspected that he was promised more support for football than he got when he accepted the Georgetown job.


Coach Kelly is under even more intense pressure now. I believe that the only reason he is back for 2009 is that Bernard Muir was the AD and he had hired Coach Kelly. Three victories in two seasons and some flat out embarrassing losses would not have allowed him to survive otherwise. If Coach Kelly can piece together five victories in 2009, he might be back. In my estimation, that is three or four victories too optimistic.


The Administration at Georgetown will have to make a decision on the football future at Georgetown. No AD candidate with any real connections will take this job without a clear message from the school...and the candidate needs to believe what he or she is told. Bernard Muir leaving for Delaware is an indictment of Georgetown and I am confident that the college athletic community knows it. He came from Notre Dame where he was an Ass't. AD and he was going to make his mark at Georgetown to land the big job. No offense intended here, but the big job was not supposed to be Delaware. The Hens got a good one because Georgetown dropped the ball (pun intended).


If the school doesn't step up and support football aggressively, it will be doomed to repeating its past--hiring inexperienced AD's with little to lose and in a similar fashion Head Coaches with no head coaching experience. They found a good one in Muir and likely drove him away; they had a good one in Coach Kelly's predecessor, Bob Benson but with a new AD his ouster was predictable.
I sincerely hope that Georgetown gets it right. I will always be a Hoya football fan even while winning remains a pleasant surprise rather than a realistic hope each Saturday.

[CFBfan]

Great insight, I appreciate the points you make here.

[Go...gate]

I am very happy to have Georgetown as an Associate Member of the Patriot League, but Georgetown desperately needs to commit itself to football if they are to remain a legitimate participant in the conference. I'm no expert, but I have often discussed the similarities I have observed between the start-ups of GU and Fordham in PL football on this board. Where they have noticibly diverged in recent years is GU's stubbornness in commiting vastly fewer dollars to the program and its facilities. Not that GU has to shell out nearly $4,000,000 per year, as Fordham has, but they must do much better in this regard, and sooner rather than later.

[turbodean]

Not that GU has to nearly $4,000,000 per year, as Fordham has, but they must do much better in this regard, and sooner rather than later.

I'm afraid that it's not going to happen anytime soon with a vacant AD position. Even with a new AD in place that will be a challenge. Especially in a program that's fighting for relevency on its own campus. I think the best one can hope for short term is a new, football-friendly AD with assurances his efforts to stabilize the situation and set it on the right path will be unanimously supported by the admin... but even this would take years.

I suspect there is more pressure on admin short term to get basketball back up to meeting alumni expectations, than to plow many resources into football.

[HoyaMetanoia]

To follow up on this post, Georgetown has released its revised spring roster, and it looks like there have been three additional starters to leave the team/school since the conclusion of spring ball: RB Keion Wade (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/wade_keion00.html), LB/S/Rover Sean McNally (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/mcnally_sean00.html) and OL Jon Medina (http://guhoyas.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/medina_jon00.html).

The attrition numbers (which can't be considered final until fall camp) seem to have held reasonably steady for the freshman class (7-9 defections of an original class of 32), with a higher than normal upperclassman attrition rate of ~10 (although some can be attributed to injury). With that said, Georgetown is going to have its largest senior class under Kevin Kelly in the '09 season, so there is hope, at least from a numbers standpoint.

[RichH2]

We all have some. This year we lost 3 off this years recruit class. Yale took 1 , the other 2 a qb and a db Dont know guess we were their safety school