PL Expansion "Update"

[Ken_Z]

it's that time again. from the Bucknell BOT meeting last week:

"The committee discussed the ongoing confidential discussions about Patriot League membership. The league has developed a two- to five-year timeline for completing any expansion, and is sensitive to the impact that the global recession may have on institutions considering joining the league at this time."

feel free to read between the lines and share your interpretations. at first blush, looks bad to me re scholarships and the schools they are targeting (we need to be sensitive that the recession may keep schools from ramping up their spending to join the PL).

on a more positive athletics (but not football) front:

"At a joint meeting of the Long Range Planning Committee and the Athletics Subcommittee, Vice President Thiede reviewed the University's merit aid and scholarship program timeline. He noted that most institutions within the Patriot League are offering a more extensive merit aid program than Bucknell is via its programs in men's and women's basketball. The committee reviewed materials regarding the current financial aid landscape of the Patriot League and approved a resolution calling for a review of merit aid in athletics at Bucknell, with an intent to report back to the Board as early as November. This review anticipates a broad campus conversation about merit-based aid in general and athletic merit aid in particular."

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/Admin_Services/President/BOT/Spring09/BOTSummarySpring.html#Athletics

[CollegeSportsInfo]

As an A10 fan, I'd love to see the Patriot approach Fordham and say: "We'll add increased partial scholarships for football if you bring all sports back to the Patriot". ;)

[LUHawker]

[QUOTE=Ken_Z;1337448]it's that time again. from the Bucknell BOT meeting last week:

"The committee discussed the ongoing confidential discussions about Patriot League membership. The league has developed a two- to five-year timeline for completing any expansion, and is sensitive to the impact that the global recession may have on institutions considering joining the league at this time."

feel free to read between the lines and share your interpretations. at first blush, looks bad to me re scholarships and the schools they are targeting (we need to be sensitive that the recession may keep schools from ramping up their spending to join the PL).


QUOTE]

I agree, this looks bad in terms of which schools the PL is targeting. It all depends, however, on which schools they are. If its RPI and Johns Hopkins, then not so bad after all. If its Marist (cue LFN's rejoice now) or Duquense or Monmouth, then I'm not excited at all.

The comment doesn't really provide any insight as to the forthcoming vote on football scholarships, so I guess we'll just keep pontificating.

[RichH2]

Good to see the issues are being looked at but the academic timeline is akin to the half life of Carbon 14. I would like to be alive when they decide.

[Go...gate]

[QUOTE=Ken_Z;1337448]it's that time again. from the Bucknell BOT meeting last week:

"The committee discussed the ongoing confidential discussions about Patriot League membership. The league has developed a two- to five-year timeline for completing any expansion, and is sensitive to the impact that the global recession may have on institutions considering joining the league at this time."

feel free to read between the lines and share your interpretations. at first blush, looks bad to me re scholarships and the schools they are targeting (we need to be sensitive that the recession may keep schools from ramping up their spending to join the PL).


QUOTE]

I agree, this looks bad in terms of which schools the PL is targeting. It all depends, however, on which schools they are. If its RPI and Johns Hopkins, then not so bad after all. If its Marist (cue LFN's rejoice now) or Duquesne or Monmouth, then I'm not excited at all.

The comment doesn't really provide any insight as to the forthcoming vote on football scholarships, so I guess we'll just keep pontificating.

This is about 25 years too early for Monmouth. They are a school on the rise in many ways.

[Go...gate]

it's that time again. from the Bucknell BOT meeting last week:

"The committee discussed the ongoing confidential discussions about Patriot League membership. The league has developed a two- to five-year timeline for completing any expansion, and is sensitive to the impact that the global recession may have on institutions considering joining the league at this time."

feel free to read between the lines and share your interpretations. at first blush, looks bad to me re scholarships and the schools they are targeting (we need to be sensitive that the recession may keep schools from ramping up their spending to join the PL).

on a more positive athletics (but not football) front:

"At a joint meeting of the Long Range Planning Committee and the Athletics Subcommittee, Vice President Thiede reviewed the University's merit aid and scholarship program timeline. He noted that most institutions within the Patriot League are offering a more extensive merit aid program than Bucknell is via its programs in men's and women's basketball. The committee reviewed materials regarding the current financial aid landscape of the Patriot League and approved a resolution calling for a review of merit aid in athletics at Bucknell, with an intent to report back to the Board as early as November. This review anticipates a broad campus conversation about merit-based aid in general and athletic merit aid in particular."

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/Admin_Services/President/BOT/Spring09/BOTSummarySpring.html#Athletics

I presume this is all-sports and not simply football.

[Go...gate]

it's that time again. from the Bucknell BOT meeting last week:

"The committee discussed the ongoing confidential discussions about Patriot League membership. The league has developed a two- to five-year timeline for completing any expansion, and is sensitive to the impact that the global recession may have on institutions considering joining the league at this time."

feel free to read between the lines and share your interpretations. at first blush, looks bad to me re scholarships and the schools they are targeting (we need to be sensitive that the recession may keep schools from ramping up their spending to join the PL).

on a more positive athletics (but not football) front:

"At a joint meeting of the Long Range Planning Committee and the Athletics Subcommittee, Vice President Thiede reviewed the University's merit aid and scholarship program timeline. He noted that most institutions within the Patriot League are offering a more extensive merit aid program than Bucknell is via its programs in men's and women's basketball. The committee reviewed materials regarding the current financial aid landscape of the Patriot League and approved a resolution calling for a review of merit aid in athletics at Bucknell, with an intent to report back to the Board as early as November. This review anticipates a broad campus conversation about merit-based aid in general and athletic merit aid in particular."

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/Admin_Services/President/BOT/Spring09/BOTSummarySpring.html#Athletics

I think you are correct.

[RichH2]

My Q is what 2-5 year plan are they talking about? PL plan . Agree with Gate seems to envision all sports agenda. Not much out there IMHO that would improve PL if we are not talking merit aid for football

[DFW HOYA]

What they said: "The committee discussed the ongoing confidential discussions about Patriot League membership. The league has developed a two- to five-year timeline for completing any expansion, and is sensitive to the impact that the global recession may have on institutions considering joining the league at this time."

What they meant: "Nobody's knocking at the door anymore, but give it a few years and maybe someone will be."

What they absolutely didn't want to say: "We cannot engage any like minded Division I schools to field teams under the current philosophy."

[Go...gate]

We can all say what we want about Marist, but US News and the Princeton Review seem to have very favorable opinions. I don't know where they rate in the Barron's Guide (what prevailed as authority on colleges in my long-ago day).

[ngineer]

We can all say what we want about Marist, but US News and the Princeton Review seem to have very favorable opinions. I don't know where they rate in the Barron's Guide (what prevailed as authority on colleges in my long-ago day).

I heard they are 'foxy'...;)

I agree with much of the above. Nothing showing that the earth is moving. I still sense some kind of compromise with Fordham.

[65 Pard]

Monmouth????

When I was in High School, Monmouth College, as it was known then, was the safety school for those who would not get into any other college.....Admittedly that was a while ago.......Still, it comes as a shock to me that they could have now risen to the point of meeting PL academic standards....

[ngineer]

Not directly related to this thread, but tangentially, was an article in today's Morning Call about Lafayette cutting budgets 10% across the board, all salaries frozen and the 10-year capital plan on hold. Income from their endowment is down 30% and they rely on a like percentage of income each year. In this environment, I don't see anything happening on the sports scene other than treading water.

[RichH2]

My impression that LU did not get hit as hard as we dont use income for annual expense to any great degree but still a lot of retrenching . LU also setting aside more funds expecting a greater pull on needs formula over the next few years.
All that said , what does it mean for football aid, expansion??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"At a joint meeting of the Long Range Planning Committee and the Athletics Subcommittee, Vice President Thiede reviewed the University's merit aid and scholarship program timeline. He noted that most institutions within the Patriot League are offering a more extensive merit aid program than Bucknell is via its programs in men's and women's basketball. The committee reviewed materials regarding the current financial aid landscape of the Patriot League and approved a resolution calling for a review of merit aid in athletics at Bucknell, with an intent to report back to the Board as early as November. This review anticipates a broad campus conversation about merit-based aid in general and athletic merit aid in particular."

http://www.departments.bucknell.edu/Admin_Services/President/BOT/Spring09/BOTSummarySpring.html#Athletics

I think it's an awful big assumption that the result of this "merit aid review" is going to be positive. What if they decide that it's simply better to drop football in order to focus on basketball - that merit aid isn't even worth it for football?

Also, this hardly sounds like an institution that will be ready to commit to scholarships in football any time near Fordham's timeline.

It's all good that the discussion is happening, but once again the pace is so slow.

[Go...gate]

Monmouth????

When I was in High School, Monmouth College, as it was known then, was the safety school for those who would not get into any other college.....Admittedly that was a while ago.......Still, it comes as a shock to me that they could have now risen to the point of meeting PL academic standards....

Forty or fifty years ago, 65 Pard, you were right on, no question at all!

Like Hofstra, since the 1970's Monmouth has received and has had a lot of capital invested in it, which has raised its profile a bit. Unlike Hofstra, Monmouth still has a ways to go, but I'm thinking they get there.

On a related item, I still think Northeastern will have a part to play in this dance. Forget about the D-III schools, though. It is just too hard to justify upgrading to Division I for all sports when so many of these schools have lost so much in endowment monies. The economic situation has raided the poker game, so to say.

[RichH2]

Go,

how real is Northeastern issue? Have noticed more rumor and talk on the boards on them opting to move but to US?

[Franks Tanks]

Not directly related to this thread, but tangentially, was an article in today's Morning Call about Lafayette cutting budgets 10% across the board, all salaries frozen and the 10-year capital plan on hold. Income from their endowment is down 30% and they rely on a like percentage of income each year. In this environment, I don't see anything happening on the sports scene other than treading water.

I do think this is largely a case of trimming the fat. It may delay some projects/initiatives but overall I think the impact will be somewhat minmal.

It will however have an impact on athletics-- I dont think any changes will be occuring anytime soon in that departmet.

[DFW HOYA]

Go,

how real is Northeastern issue? Have noticed more rumor and talk on the boards on them opting to move but to US?

I'd guess slim and none. No one's looking to downgrade NU's sports programs.

[Husky Alum]

The only program which one would argue could be "downgraded" are Field Hockey, Men's Basketball and perhaps track & field.

Football, we'd be no better/no worse than the PL from where we are now.

If the powers that be decide that they want to go to "cost control" athletics and the like - and the PL comes offing, those that make the grand scale decisions at NU, may decide that associating ourselves athletically with academic schools like Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate and Holy Cross may be a better move than the CAA.

I'm not sure I agree with that one, but....

It's something that we discussed before moving to the CAA, but the PL wasn't interested as our academic house wasn't in order yet. Now, we're a USNWR Top 100 school and our Business School is a Top 30 program in Business Week's Rankings.

[carney2]

My reading of the tea leaves says that you can forget football scholarships in the foreseeable future. In fact, there is no indication that a vote of any kind is imminent. It certainly isn not going to happen in June. To the best of anyone's knowledge this subject has not yet been broached with the Lafayette Board of Trustees, and absolutley no "vote" will be cast by the Leopards without Board input and approval. As has been stated many times previously, Fordham could not have chosen a worse time to throw their tantrum.

Sticking to football, it appears that Lafayette is tightening the belt to the strangulation point. President Weiss seems determined not to take much away from the faculty and even appears willing to "make points" with that portion of his constituency by relentlessly flogging the athletic department. All athletic budgets have been cut, with promises of more to come. In my opinion, the Pards are looking at a period of "recession football." It will not be apparent for a year or two, but when it hits, expect 4 years of it. The only way they stay competitive over this period is if other Patriot League schools move in the same direction.

[RichH2]

Money is surely going to be tighter over the next 3-4 yrs. Unless we each have some generous alums who rode the last wave of financial excess to lots of cash and want to donate some to their colleges to make amends we'll all be happy to tread water and not drown. Hunkering down rather than innovation seems like the tune of the day. We may be a tad less vulnerable than LC as admin is not as anti sports as yours. LU making blanket cuts across all depts.

[Go...gate]

Go,

How real is Northeastern issue? Have noticed more rumor and talk on the boards on them opting to move but to US?

I don't know how real it is but would not be as dismissive as the gentleman from Georgetown. Frankly, such a move makes some sense for NU if it wanted to be a football associate member, especially if the PL will remain need-based for football. They could just slot in to replace Fordham.

[Go...gate]

The only program which one would argue could be "downgraded" are Field Hockey, Men's Basketball and perhaps track & field.

Football, we'd be no better/no worse than the PL from where we are now.

If the powers that be decide that they want to go to "cost control" athletics and the like - and the PL comes offing, those that make the grand scale decisions at NU, may decide that associating ourselves athletically with academic schools like Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, Colgate and Holy Cross may be a better move than the CAA.

I'm not sure I agree with that one, but....

It's something that we discussed before moving to the CAA, but the PL wasn't interested as our academic house wasn't in order yet. Now, we're a USNWR Top 100 school and our Business School is a Top 30 program in Business Week's Rankings.

Which would mean you could be a replacement for Fordham and stay in another conference for BB, as Fordham elected to do, albeit with disastrous results.

[Go...gate]

My reading of the tea leaves says that you can forget football scholarships in the foreseeable future. In fact, there is no indication that a vote of any kind is imminent. It certainly isn not going to happen in June. To the best of anyone's knowledge this subject has not yet been broached with the Lafayette Board of Trustees, and absolutley no "vote" will be cast by the Leopards without Board input and approval. As has been stated many times previously, Fordham could not have chosen a worse time to throw their tantrum.

Sticking to football, it appears that Lafayette is tightening the belt to the strangulation point. President Weiss seems determined not to take much away from the faculty and even appears willing to "make points" with that portion of his constituency by relentlessly flogging the athletic department. All athletic budgets have been cut, with promises of more to come. In my opinion, the Pards are looking at a period of "recession football." It will not be apparent for a year or two, but when it hits, expect 4 years of it. The only way they stay competitive over this period is if other Patriot League schools move in the same direction.

Great post. I can see Colgate, which watches its dollars pretty closely and had some major capital projects go way over budget before the meltdown, doing the same thing, which means football scholarships may be much farther off than we would like.

[RichH2]

Pl seems only to be considering full members. NE would be a nice addition now HC and Gate particularly. I don't know how merit aid in football would impact on such move whether we have it or dont

[ngineer]

I heard that Lehigh is cutting all budgets by about 10% across the board, similar to LC. If NU is willing to got the need based formula, they seem to be an easy lateral move to replace Fordham, plus regionally located for natural rivalry with Holy Cross.

[CrusaderBob]

Except with 15,000+ undergraduates and 6000+ Grad and Law Students Northeastern is twice as big as American, which is almost twice as big as Lehigh the next biggest PL school in terms of enrollment.

Not the worst thing in the world, but not exactly the small, predominantly undergraduate institutions that make up the remainder of the PL.

When American joined, something in the model had to give. Either size, academic credentials, predominantly undergraduate, or type of school - National University or Liberal Arts College. With American (55% unndergraduate), the compromise was predominantly undergraduate as their size and academic profile was similar to Fordham's when Fordahm left.

I'm in the camp that says go to the Masters Universities - schools like Loyola (MD), Fairfield, Marist, Quinnipiac, St. Joes, Bryant (that bus appears to have left), Providence (I'm sure they are looking to get out of the Big East). They are smaller (generally under 5000 undergrads) predominantely undergrad (65% or higher) and in the top 20 in their category academically in the North.

Unfortunately only a couple of them play football. Which is of course only compounds the dilemma.

But I'd bet that is where the discussions are taking place. Which criteria do we compromise on as far as membership.

[ngineer]

Except with 15,000+ undergraduates and 6000+ Grad and Law Students Northeastern is twice as big as American, which is almost twice as big as Lehigh the next biggest PL school in terms of enrollment.

Not the worst thing in the world, but not exactly the small, predominantly undergraduate institutions that make up the remainder of the PL.

When American joined, something in the model had to give. Either size, academic credentials, predominantly undergraduate, or type of school - National University or Liberal Arts College. With American (55% unndergraduate), the compromise was predominantly undergraduate as their size and academic profile was similar to Fordham's when Fordahm left.

I'm in the camp that says go to the Masters Universities - schools like Loyola (MD), Fairfield, Marist, Quinnipiac, St. Joes, Bryant (that bus appears to have left), Providence (I'm sure they are looking to get out of the Big East). They are smaller (generally under 5000 undergrads) predominantely undergrad (65% or higher) and in the top 20 in their category academically in the North.

Unfortunately only a couple of them play football. Which is of course only compounds the dilemma.

But I'd bet that is where the discussions are taking place. Which criteria do we compromise on as far as membership.

Good point about the demographics. Some of the same concerns regarding Towson when they were an associate. I'd like to see Johns Hopkins get some consideration IF they are in a mood to move up. Locale with G'town, academic profile, and major power in lacrosse.

[Cooper]

Barring the addition of a William & Mary, a Davidson or a Richmond (all unlikely for much-discussed reasons) I'd prefer a push for a formalized union of sorts with the Ivy League.

Think the "Ivy League" Division and "Patriot League" Division. Ivies would never go for a "championship game," but what about a union in name only? There would still be the Ivy League champion and Patriot League champion within the union, kind of like the North champion and the South champion. IIf that were the case, the impact of Fordham punting would mean little more than just finding one more game, which actually could be fun.

Ivies are going to continue to struggle for someone to play as schollies get added at the Albanies et al of the world. They may go for it if the Patriot League schools say that barring such a development, they, too, will have to go in another direction.

The beauty of being part of a conjoined league is that the football league minimum for teams is reached but Ivies and Patriots can go their own way. Think convenience marriage.

Sorry, but to add a Marist, a Monmouth or a Bryant would change the core nature of the league.

[DFW HOYA]

The Ivy Group has little or no interest in a Ivy-PL playoff. They would sooner adopt a NESCAC strategy (no non-conference games) rather than some sort of championship game.

The PL posters that worry about losing the core identity of the league have to realize that there are no interested schools out there that fit 1) a small liberal arts framework, 2) the PL's academic standards, and 3) will otherwise commit to a non-scholarship $3M football budget. Change one or all of these variables, and it might gain some interest, but no one fits the bill right now.

[Cooper]

The Ivy Group has little or no interest in a Ivy-PL playoff. They would sooner adopt a NESCAC strategy (no non-conference games) rather than some sort of championship game.

Read again. I'm not suggesting a championship game. Rather, simply pulling the two conferences together under a convenience umbrella. Patriot League gets above the Mendoza line for number of teams, Ivy League gets a guarantee that the Patriots won't go scholarship, thereby providing relatively like-minded opponents to play. Each operates as their own league with their own champion.

[CrusaderBob]

Read again. I'm not suggesting a championship game. Rather, simply pulling the two conferences together under a convenience umbrella. Patriot League gets above the Mendoza line for number of teams, Ivy League gets a guarantee that the Patriots won't go scholarship, thereby providing relatively like-minded opponents to play. Each operates as their own league with their own champion.

That's a Back to the Future proposal.

What you are describing is basically the original premise when the PL was formed. In the minds of most PL schools, the Ivies never quite lived up to their end of the bargain with respect to scheduling. I don't think too many of the PL schools are likely to fall for that again.

Others have said it here before. The PL to define itself in its own terms not by the way the Ivy League wants to define us. If the Ivy's will play us, fine. If not, then tell them to have a nice day and play someone else.

[dgreco]

Bryant wanted to join the PL, and they would not take them?Pretty odd, Bryant being an up and rising business school with PLENTY of money.

the problem was the small liberal arts college, but I am sure if they were given an invite they would of grown the liberal arts college over the next four years. The way things are looking, I think Bryant will be content and maybe happy in the NEC. They have been able to compete in some sports and for a first year that is a good start. I really think for Bryant it will be Lacrosse and football which look like they will both allow for better avenues to win championships or compete for them through the NEC. Who knows though.

I really think you are left with Marist, I never really hear Providence much, but that would be a decent fit, and then a DIII if they ever thought to move up.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Think the "Ivy League" Division and "Patriot League" Division. Ivies would never go for a "championship game," but what about a union in name only? There would still be the Ivy League champion and Patriot League champion within the union, kind of like the North champion and the South champion. If that were the case, the impact of Fordham punting would mean little more than just finding one more game, which actually could be fun.

1. How exactly is this different than the way things are now? What benefit would formalizing it do - so Georgetown gets an extra game with Cornell once a year? Right now all the PL teams play at least one IL team a year and some schedule up to four. How does that benefit the PL or IL?

2. How does making a North and South division that DOESN'T play themselves in a championship game make things better? All that would do is set up a never-ending debate that they should play each other - and if there's anything I know about the IL is that they don't want to do anything that fans the flames of postseason play.

3. The PL and IL are conceptually lumped together as one unit nationally for sure - IMO, much to the PL's detriment in football. What possible national good would it do the PL to retrench regionally and give away all the efforts to make the PL a sort-of national presence? Seems to me the IL would still be the IL at the end of the day, while the PL falls off the national radar screen as the IL's waterboy in an even worse way than it already is.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL posters that worry about losing the core identity of the league have to realize that there are no interested schools out there that fit 1) a small liberal arts framework, 2) the PL's academic standards, and 3) will otherwise commit to a non-scholarship $3M football budget. Change one or all of these variables, and it might gain some interest, but no one fits the bill right now.


My reading of the tea leaves says that you can forget football scholarships in the foreseeable future. In fact, there is no indication that a vote of any kind is imminent. It certainly isn not going to happen in June. To the best of anyone's knowledge this subject has not yet been broached with the Lafayette Board of Trustees, and absolutley no "vote" will be cast by the Leopards without Board input and approval. As has been stated many times previously, Fordham could not have chosen a worse time to throw their tantrum.

I don't know much, but I do know something's going to be discussed in June. Whether there's going to be votes, whether it's binding, I don't know, but something's going to be discussed then about this whole issue of scholarships.

As for DFW's point, what's the likelihood that the PL is going to veer away from their small liberal-arts framework or reduce academic standards? The fact still remains that it's the "non-scholarship $3 mil football budget" that's the obstacle that is most likely to change of all three of those "core values".

A lot has been discussed about the lack of possible expansion targets from existing D-I schools, but something else I think that is underreported about all this discussion is the NCAA's moratorium on moving up divisions. That's stopping any potential sub-D-I PL school from becoming all-sports members - if the moratorium were lifted tomorrow, which it won't be - until 2014.

[Cooper]

1. How exactly is this different than the way things are now? What benefit would formalizing it do - so Georgetown gets an extra game with Cornell once a year? Right now all the PL teams play at least one IL team a year and some schedule up to four. How does that benefit the PL or IL?

Correct me if I'm wrong – and I might be – but I thought there was a threshold for number of teams in a league to keep the automatic bid, and that losing Fordham would drop the PL below it. If that's not the case, my premise would be wrong. If it's correct, the marriage of convenience with the Ivies would boost the league back above the minimum. While each league would maintain their own standings (and hence their own identity for their purposes) the combined standing would be official for NCAA purposes. The top team eligible for the playoffs (ie the Patriot League champion) would then proceed on.

What the Ivies would gain would be a firm agreement with the Patriot League regarding future scheduling.

While this is a hypothetical exercise, think about the ECAC hockey, which is a combination of Ivy and other schools, essentially for purposes of the NCAA Tournament, but an Ivy League champion is still crowned. That's the model I'm suggesting.

Who knows, but perhaps the new Ivy League executive director will look a little more kindly on progressive ideas than the last director.

[TheValleyRaider]

Correct me if I'm wrong – and I might be – but I thought there was a threshold for number of teams in a league to keep the automatic bid, and that losing Fordham would drop the PL below it. If that's not the case, my premise would be wrong. If it's correct, the marriage of convenience with the Ivies would boost the league back above the minimum. While each league would maintain their own standings (and hence their own identity for their purposes) the combined standing would be official for NCAA purposes. The top team eligible for the playoffs (ie the Patriot League champion) would then proceed on.

The minimum number of teams for an autobid is 6. If Fordham leaves, the PL would be right at that minimum threshold. Not ideal, of course, but we'd still be keeping the bid


What the Ivies would gain would be a firm agreement with the Patriot League regarding future scheduling.

The question is, how much would they really care? Are the Ivies really concerned about losing the PL as a set of OOC foes? If Princeton, Dartmouth or Cornell called Colgate asking for a game, there's a very low probability we'd say no xtwocentsx


While this is a hypothetical exercise, think about the ECAC hockey, which is a combination of Ivy and other schools, essentially for purposes of the NCAA Tournament, but an Ivy League champion is still crowned. That's the model I'm suggesting.

The ECAC isn't a great example, as it exists as a whole entity within College Hockey. The winner of the ECAC tournament (Ivy or not) gets the conference's autobid to the NCAA Tournament. The Ivy schools play the exact same schedules as everyone else, and the crowning of their champion is an independent exercise that they do on their own. The Ivy title carries little to no weight outside of the 6 schools, and has no standing as far as the NCAA is concerned

[LBPop]

I certainly defer to the knowledge of the people who have posted here about the Ivies entering into any sort of formal relationship with the PL. With my limited exposure to the Ivy League mentality, if any such formal relationship were to be established I fear that we would have a new and much more dangerous swine flu epidemic on our hands. Because pigs would be flying up and down the east coast. ;)

[bluehenbillk]

Is there any update or timetable on Fordham's decision??

[danefan]

Is there any update or timetable on Fordham's decision??

It was said by Fordham that they wanted a decision by June.

[jimbo65]

Fordham had the Gridiron Dinner last week. While I was not there, the postings on the Fordham Board said the issue was not raised. Coach Masella thanked Jeff Gray for his support and some attendees interperted that as acknowledging Gray's position on the schollies. One poster said he heard the coach talking to some alums and while he did not use these words, the poster's interp was that we are gone if there are no schollies.

For what it is worth, IMO, if there are no schollies as previously discussed, we will be out of the PL next yr (2010). Where we will go, who knows but Fordham has a pretty good current fball pedigree and a superlative fball history which should help find a home.

[turbodean]

Amen. And while it may be tough for a few years to get re-settled, I do not think it's a mistake.

[DFW HOYA]

For what it is worth, IMO, if there are no schollies as previously discussed, we will be out of the PL next yr (2010).

If the PL offers a number less than 63, what is the number to keep Fordham in the fold?

[RichH2]

FU seems to be in an all or nothing positionat least where the # is less than 57.

[ngineer]

Hey, there is a separate thread about Georgia State looking for a home. Why not invite them...Great roadtrips!;)

[Go...gate]

If the article by that knucklehead Marcus on another thread is correct, the PL should run, not walk, to sign Hofstra up.

[carney2]

If the PL offers a number less than 63, what is the number to keep Fordham in the fold?

As has been posted here before, apparently Fordham needs the "counter" minimum of 57 in order to book FCS money games. I don't believe that the number, whatever you want to make it, has any relevance at all. Fordham wants football scholarships. Most, if not all, of the remainder of the Patriot League, in my uninformed opinion, will not accept any movement in this direction in the current economic climate.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Hey, there is a separate thread about Georgia State looking for a home. Why not invite them...Great roadtrips!;)

Why would Georgia St. leave the CAA for football or any sports? Makes little sense as the commuter school hasn't even fielded a football team yet and is the most recent CAA member in a southern conference.

[Ken_Z]

Why would Georgia St. leave the CAA for football or any sports? Makes little sense as the commuter school hasn't even fielded a football team yet and is the most recent CAA member in a southern conference.


the little winky thing is supposed to clue you in that the statement was made in jest.

[carney2]

Just did a tour of the Fordham board

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,539.0.html

and based on this very small sampling it would appear that

(1) the Ram faithful have already put the Patriot League in their rear view mirror, and

(2) they are apparently thrilled with the decision and have concluded that "There has been much damage done to Fordham over the years by the Patriot League, and in all sports, not just football. Our decision to join the Patriot League in all sports was very possibly the worst decision by Fordham, in the area of athletics, in its history."

If this is a majority opinion then so be it. I wish them the best, but honestly do not see how this move would be in the best interests of Fordham athletics. It will be, in my opinion, an uphill battle not to have the football program follow Fordham basketball into oblivion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Just did a tour of the Fordham board

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,539.0.html

and based on this very small sampling it would appear that

(1) the Ram faithful have already put the Patriot League in their rear view mirror, and

(2) they are apparently thrilled with the decision and have concluded that "There has been much damage done to Fordham over the years by the Patriot League, and in all sports, not just football. Our decision to join the Patriot League in all sports was very possibly the worst decision by Fordham, in the area of athletics, in its history."

If this is a majority opinion then so be it. I wish them the best, but honestly do not see how this move would be in the best interests of Fordham athletics. It will be, in my opinion, an uphill battle not to have the football program follow Fordham basketball into oblivion.

First, I wouldn't say that this a majority opinion by any stretch from my limited dealings with Fordham fans.

Second - that Hofstra chatter is growing news, and that (IMO) affects quite a bit regarding decisions across the league.

[jimbo65]

First, I wouldn't say that this a majority opinion by any stretch from my limited dealings with Fordham fans.

Second - that Hofstra chatter is growing news, and that (IMO) affects quite a bit regarding decisions across the league.
What we are forgetting in many of these posts is that action by the PL precipitated the demand by Fordham. While I never really understood what the PL did, in the opinion of the Fordham Family, it diminished our ability to recruit. Further, it is felt that such diminishment (is that a word) was intentional & directed at Fordham. Why wouldn't we leave? Recalling our entry to the PL, I heard from a good source that our main booster for admission was not Holy Cross as I thought, but rather LaFayette & Army. Frankly, I think some of the administrators, not associated with athletics, will be happy to see us go and view our departure as a cleansing.

Fball is not going to oblivion but rather thrive. Granted the first yr or two might be a scuffle to get opponents, but this will be a good move for Fordham. Joining the PL for all sports did contribute to worsening our athletics because the simple truth is that we were at a distinct disadvantage recruiting athletes who met the PL requirements vs. Ivy League or most other PL schools .

Personally I enjoyed the PL fball games and hope that the schollies are approved. Apparently that is not going to happen.

Ave, Atque Vale.

[Ken_Z]

Just did a tour of the Fordham board

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,539.0.html

and based on this very small sampling it would appear that

(1) the Ram faithful have already put the Patriot League in their rear view mirror, and

(2) they are apparently thrilled with the decision and have concluded that "There has been much damage done to Fordham over the years by the Patriot League, and in all sports, not just football. Our decision to join the Patriot League in all sports was very possibly the worst decision by Fordham, in the area of athletics, in its history."

If this is a majority opinion then so be it. I wish them the best, but honestly do not see how this move would be in the best interests of Fordham athletics. It will be, in my opinion, an uphill battle not to have the football program follow Fordham basketball into oblivion.

the Fordham board is similar to most other sports boards. many realistic level headed posters. many other posters whose views are colored by their allegiance and fanaticism. what they have that most don't is RAMBACKER, someone who seems to believe that by repeatedly stating his view of the world, that makes it reality. if someone offers a contrary opinion he(? she? it?) tries to steamroll them. if you blame the PL enough times, it doesn't matter that Fordham left the league 15 years ago, it is still one of the primary reasons Fordham struggles with athletics. repeat 100 more times and it will become a fact. what is really bizarre is that it seems to believe it can alter Fordham's priorities and policies by repeating its postings again and again.

[DFW HOYA]

I understand the appeal of scholarships but I don't understand where it will fundamentally take Fordham. Three thoughts:

1. If you're going to spend $4-5M a year just so you can tell the alumni you're playing Army or Temple once a year, that's an expensive proposition, esp. if someone makes the argument that Fordham should be providing comparable scholarship (not financial) aid under Title IX. A "body bag" game doesn't address the hazard of playing an independent schedule, which means a lot of games in October and Novermber with independents like Savannah State or South Alabama (presumably, the Ivy and the PL will drop all scheduling ties)

2. A full scholarship Fordham doeen't address the facility issues at Jack Coffey Field. It's a below average setup relative to all the others it is expecting to competing among.

3. What does it buy relative to the opportunity cost of not improving the basketball program?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

the Fordham board is similar to most other sports boards. many realistic level headed posters. many other posters whose views are colored by their allegiance and fanaticism. what they have that most don't is RAMBACKER, someone who seems to believe that by repeatedly stating his view of the world, that makes it reality. if someone offers a contrary opinion he(? she? it?) tries to steamroll them. if you blame the PL enough times, it doesn't matter that Fordham left the league 15 years ago, it is still one of the primary reasons Fordham struggles with athletics. repeat 100 more times and it will become a fact. what is really bizarre is that it seems to believe it can alter Fordham's priorities and policies by repeating its postings again and again.

You must spread reputation around before...

Reminds me of Dick Cheney leaking something to the NYT one day, and then quoting it as fact on Meet the Press the next day.

[RichH2]

An idealogue views only his version of reality. RAMBACKER isone of many across all boards. I make no claim that he is wrong but do believe that many FU fans are relying to much on luck that Oh well something good will happen if we dump the evil PL. What is that song you dont realize what you have until its gone. While I wouldrather keep FU in the PL, now I really just want it over. There will be a lot of changes over the next few years, we should just move on and wish FU luck with their quest and settleour own issues.

[ngineer]

Why would Georgia St. leave the CAA for football or any sports? Makes little sense as the commuter school hasn't even fielded a football team yet and is the most recent CAA member in a southern conference.


;);););););););););););););)= said in jest....xrolleyesx

[ngineer]

Just did a tour of the Fordham board

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,539.0.html

and based on this very small sampling it would appear that

(1) the Ram faithful have already put the Patriot League in their rear view mirror, and

(2) they are apparently thrilled with the decision and have concluded that "There has been much damage done to Fordham over the years by the Patriot League, and in all sports, not just football. Our decision to join the Patriot League in all sports was very possibly the worst decision by Fordham, in the area of athletics, in its history."

If this is a majority opinion then so be it. I wish them the best, but honestly do not see how this move would be in the best interests of Fordham athletics. It will be, in my opinion, an uphill battle not to have the football program follow Fordham basketball into oblivion.

Fully agree. Their experience in the A-10 should have been a learning one.

[RichH2]

Now Hofstra . .trying to join A 10.

[ngineer]

If Hofstra is indeed looking to make a move, I agree the PL should jump at them. In addition to football, Lehigh has played the Pride nee Flying Dutchmen in many other sports, including a good rivalry in wrestling, which although not a PL sport, makes for good familiarity. Plus, it keeps the PL footprint in the NYC area, and a relatively convenient and inexpensive away game travel.

[Go...gate]

What we are forgetting in many of these posts is that action by the PL precipitated the demand by Fordham. While I never really understood what the PL did, in the opinion of the Fordham Family, it diminished our ability to recruit. Further, it is felt that such diminishment (is that a word) was intentional & directed at Fordham. Why wouldn't we leave? Recalling our entry to the PL, I heard from a good source that our main booster for admission was not Holy Cross as I thought, but rather LaFayette & Army. Frankly, I think some of the administrators, not associated with athletics, will be happy to see us go and view our departure as a cleansing.

Fball is not going to oblivion but rather thrive. Granted the first yr or two might be a scuffle to get opponents, but this will be a good move for Fordham. Joining the PL for all sports did contribute to worsening our athletics because the simple truth is that we were at a distinct disadvantage recruiting athletes who met the PL requirements vs. Ivy League or most other PL schools .

Personally I enjoyed the PL fball games and hope that the schollies are approved. Apparently that is not going to happen.

Ave, Atque Vale.

Sorry to read something like this because you paint the whole PL with a broad brush. This PL supporter has been there from the beginning and was happy to see you guys replace Davidson, and I know I am not alone. I am not happy Fordham is leaving, if indeed that is true, and believe it is a significant loss for the conference.

[Go...gate]

If Hofstra is indeed looking to make a move, I agree the PL should jump at them. In addition to football, Lehigh has played the Pride nee Flying Dutchmen in many other sports, including a good rivalry in wrestling, which although not a PL sport, makes for good familiarity. Plus, it keeps the PL footprint in the NYC area, and a relatively convenient and inexpensive away game travel.

Yes. I hate like hell to lose Fordham, but of all the schools we have discussed for PL membership, Hofstra has always made the most sense overall. We never should have turned them down in the first place.

[Go...gate]

the Fordham board is similar to most other sports boards. many realistic level headed posters. many other posters whose views are colored by their allegiance and fanaticism. What they have that most don't is RAMBACKER, someone who seems to believe that by repeatedly stating his view of the world, that makes it reality. if someone offers a contrary opinion he(? she? it?) tries to steamroll them. if you blame the PL enough times, it doesn't matter that Fordham left the league 15 years ago, it is still one of the primary reasons Fordham struggles with athletics. repeat 100 more times and it will become a fact. what is really bizarre is that it seems to believe it can alter Fordham's priorities and policies by repeating its postings again and again.

Agree wholeheartedly. I tried a few times to get that poster to participate on this board but he had no interest. He knows what he thinks and that is satisfactory to him. He loves Fordham, though, and you can't fault him for that.

[OLPOP]

As a former player and father of a current player, I can tell you it's my impression most Fordham football fans would prefer to stay in the PL, but believe scholarships are necessary to remain competetive. Since we're already spending the $, why not use it to get the best talent? The sands of FCS football are shifting. I'm confident the administration is not taking this step recklessly, and I hope the rest of the league take this step with us.

[FUrams7]

dont rule out an A-10 football league again.. if they let Hofstra in.. Richmond, UMass, URI, Hofstra, Fordham , Dayton.. maybe ask UNH, Nova, Albany as assoc. ftbl members i would think Richmond Umass may not be thrilled at 1st but wouldnt have a choice if they wanted to remain in A-10 for all sports..

[Fordham]

I understand the appeal of scholarships but I don't understand where it will fundamentally take Fordham. Three thoughts:

1. If you're going to spend $4-5M a year just so you can tell the alumni you're playing Army or Temple once a year, that's an expensive proposition, esp. if someone makes the argument that Fordham should be providing comparable scholarship (not financial) aid under Title IX. A "body bag" game doesn't address the hazard of playing an independent schedule, which means a lot of games in October and Novermber with independents like Savannah State or South Alabama (presumably, the Ivy and the PL will drop all scheduling ties)

2. A full scholarship Fordham doeen't address the facility issues at Jack Coffey Field. It's a below average setup relative to all the others it is expecting to competing among.

3. What does it buy relative to the opportunity cost of not improving the basketball program? this whole post is such an odd way of thinking imo. We've been spending that kind of $$ already and not getting a pay game v. Army or UCONN or Rutgers (has anyone from Fordham ever said anything about Temple or did you include them on your own to help frame your argument?). Spend $4MM/year and have zero shot at a pay game. Spend $4MM/year and get one. What part of that are you having trouble with? Why would the first option be more appealing to you? Why are you trying to frame the argument as though these are increased funds we're spending to get to the point where we can get a pay game?

So our facilities are sub standard and therefore we should not move on something else that could have a very positive impact on the program? Again, just odd imo. So much of this seems be based upon your own notion that Fordham thinks we're going FBS (as you questioned in another thread earlier today) or that we somehow think scholarships solve every problem for our program. I have yet to hear anyone associated with the program say anything that gives that impression. It's simply a better, easier (and we feel fairer) way to recruit than what we're doing now and it will produce a better bang for the significant dollars we're spending.

Regarding hoops - are you saying that we should be cutting the football budget and giving that to hoops ... or that the incremental amount we're spending to go scholarship should instead have been given to hoops. If it's the latter (as I've posted here ad nauseum), we're not spending any more. If it's the former, we're just lucky enough to have a lot more football alums that give generously to the school. Much more so than hoops fans & alums.

Again, I'm not sure why this is so difficult to grasp, but full scholarships are viewed simply as a way of not having to spend any extra $$ but drive more efficiencies from the same amount of money. So many posters here keep harping on the staggering costs associated with converting from equivalencies to scholarships. For us, there aren't any. Not sure why your schools cannot take the dollars they're spending now and convert them but I do know that we're not having a problem with it.

[Fordham]

Just did a tour of the Fordham board

http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php/topic,539.0.html

and based on this very small sampling it would appear that

(1) the Ram faithful have already put the Patriot League in their rear view mirror, and

(2) they are apparently thrilled with the decision and have concluded that "There has been much damage done to Fordham over the years by the Patriot League, and in all sports, not just football. Our decision to join the Patriot League in all sports was very possibly the worst decision by Fordham, in the area of athletics, in its history."

If this is a majority opinion then so be it. I wish them the best, but honestly do not see how this move would be in the best interests of Fordham athletics. It will be, in my opinion, an uphill battle not to have the football program follow Fordham basketball into oblivion. I understand you say "small sampling" but, c'mon carney. There are 6 posts in that thread and then you use it to justify the rest of the post you made? Yeesh, we could get some pretty ugly threads going by posting some of the comments on your various voy boards made over the years.

The fact is that most Fordham fans like the PL football association very much. But with the new AI rule change that not only resulted in a broken or indefinitely delayed promise but also put us a disadvantage, we're also very pleased that our admin showed some cajones to stand up for our end of the bargain to be delivered. We have an opportunity to improve the program and for many active alums, that's a clear win since many are afraid of a program spending $4MM having the plug pulled for producing mediocre results.

What would your reaction be if Frank came out in the spring and told you he had convinced the administration that you were not getting anywhere near the bang for your buck and you were going full scholarship next year without increasing a dime in budget and you had already scheduled Army & UCONN in future skids? What if he said you had to leave the PL to do it? Would you be thrilled or upset?

[danefan]

I understand you say "small sampling" but, c'mon carney. There are 6 posts in that thread and then you use it to justify the rest of the post you made? Yeesh, we could get some pretty ugly threads going by posting some of the comments on your various voy boards made over the years.

The fact is that most Fordham fans like the PL football association very much. But with the new AI rule change that not only resulted in a broken or indefinitely delayed promise but also put us a disadvantage, we're also very pleased that our admin showed some cajones to stand up for our end of the bargain to be delivered. We have an opportunity to improve the program and for many active alums, that's a clear win since many are afraid of a program spending $4MM having the plug pulled for producing mediocre results.

What would your reaction be if Frank came out in the spring and told you he had convinced the administration that you were not getting anywhere near the bang for your buck and you were going full scholarship next year without increasing a dime in budget and you had already scheduled Army & UCONN in future skids? What if he said you had to leave the PL to do it? Would you be thrilled or upset?

xdeadhorsex


I don't get it either.

FORDHAM IS NOT GOING SPEND ANY MORE MONEY THAN THEY ALREADY DO!


http://www.markrafter.com/images/no%20money.gif