Paterno says Big Ten should get bigger

[Go...gate]

Rutgers or Syracuse in the Big Ten? Makes sense to me.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4118848

[danefan]

Could this spur the Big East restructuring we've been hearing about for some time now?

[Go...gate]

Rutgers would welcome the Big Ten for both athletic and academic reasons. The public schools in the Big Ten are highly rated academically, and NW, the lone private school, is also outstanding.

[appmaj]

Why not Iowa State?
Take someone from the Big 12 throw the whole thing out of whack.

[Thunderstruck84]

Come on... everyone knows that Notre Dame would be the 12th Big Ten team if it ever expanded.

[mcveyrl]

I think that's just his new Viagra slogan.

[Go...gate]

Come on... everyone knows that Notre Dame would be the 12th Big Ten team if it ever expanded.

ND really does not want this. The administration and many alumni have long memories back to the days when Fielding Yost and Fritz Crisler of Michigan, among others, in the Western Conference (later the Big Six and even later the Big Ten) wanted no part of ND and would not even schedule them. So if the Big Ten were to expand, it probably would be Pitt, Missouri, Syracuse or Rutgers.

[Franks Tanks]

Why not Iowa State?
Take someone from the Big 12 throw the whole thing out of whack.

Because Iowa State would add absolutely nothing to the Big 10.

I think Rutgers in the best choice for expansion if ND says no.

[appmaj]

Because Iowa State would add absolutely nothing to the Big 10.

I think Rutgers in the best choice for expansion if ND says no.

An in-state rival Iowa...

[Cocky]

Joe must not know JSU is considering FBS or he would have named us as a potential member.

[Franks Tanks]

An in-state rival Iowa...

Nobody cares about Iowa either. Iowa State brings nothing to the table-- every sports sans wrestling, isnt all that good and they are a very medicore acadmic school.

The Big 10 has about a 6 better options.

[appmaj]

Nobody cares about Iowa either. Iowa State brings nothing to the table-- every sports sans wrestling, isnt all that good and they are a very medicore acadmic school.

The Big 10 has about a 6 better options.

Thats kind of what I am getting at... Iowa has nothing Iowa State has nothing why not let them play each other for th Corn Cup and make something out of it.

Moreover I like the idea of chaos in these BCS confrences

[Benne]

Would ND be an affiliate since they don't have all the core sports? Not that I think ND would join the Big 10

[ElSissy]

ND will not join the Big 10(11). They don't want to share their money. It's that simple.

The 12th school will bring in new television markets and meet Big10 academic standards, including being a significant research university. You can count out Rutgers, Iowa State, Pitt, Syracuse and West Virginia. Missouri academics aren't ranked as high as Big10 schools, but they do have two large tv markets (St. Louis and Kansas City). Mizzou is also a significant research university. However, they would have to pay a large penalty to leave the Big XII and they don't want to lose their rivalry with Kansas. Most Mizzou alum I talk to want no part of the Big10.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think Louisville or Cincinnati would make a good choice.

[thefortyniner]

I think Louisville or Cincinnati would make a good choice.

That thought alone makes me want to vomit.

Excuse me....xnutsx

[Franks Tanks]

I think Louisville or Cincinnati would make a good choice.

Never happen-- those schools may be able to compete in athletcis but they are not like the other Big 10 schools. All the other Big 10 schools are flagship state schools or at least land grant universities. Some states have two flagships if you will with Indiana and Purdue and Michigan and Michigan State.

Pitt and Rutgers are both quite strong academically, but Pitt doesnt really fit the flagship profile.

[Go...gate]

ND will not join the Big 10(11). They don't want to share their money. It's that simple.

The 12th school will bring in new television markets and meet Big10 academic standards, including being a significant research university. You can count out Rutgers, Iowa State, Pitt, Syracuse and West Virginia. Missouri academics aren't ranked as high as Big10 schools, but they do have two large tv markets (St. Louis and Kansas City). Mizzou is also a significant research university. However, they would have to pay a large penalty to leave the Big XII and they don't want to lose their rivalry with Kansas. Most Mizzou alum I talk to want no part of the Big10.

Rutgers is a very academically strong and pretty significant research university in a bigger media market than most of the other schools presently in the Big Ten.

[UMass922]

If Syracuse were to go as an all-sports member, that would be an enormous loss for the Big East. I cannot imagine Big East basketball without the 'Cuse.

I agree that Rutgers would make some sense, though.

[ngineer]

Rutgers is a very academically strong and pretty significant research university in a bigger media market than most of the other schools presently in the Big Ten.

Good point--in fact the BIGGEST media market

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If Syracuse were to go as an all-sports member, that would be an enormous loss for the Big East. I cannot imagine Big East basketball without the 'Cuse.

I agree that Rutgers would make some sense, though.

I agree. Syracuse would never leave Georgetown, UCONN, Villanova in basketball.

[ElSissy]

Rutgers is a very academically strong and pretty significant research university in a bigger media market than most of the other schools presently in the Big Ten.

Yeah, but nobody in that market gives a rat's azz about Rutgers. They can't even fill their football stadium despite their proximity to NYC. Penn State and Notre Dame are both bigger draws in that market.

[JohnStOnge]

They already should've but if they were to bring in another school you'd think that at THAT point they'd HAVE to change the league's name. "The Large 12?"

[whitey]

Yeah, but nobody in that market gives a rat's azz about Rutgers. They can't even fill their football stadium despite their proximity to NYC.

Wrong on both accounts. New Jersey has embraced that program. Everyone likes a winner. More and more of the New York media is beginning to follow the program.

Rutgers Avg. Attendance 2008: 103.96%
Rutgers Avg. Attendance 2007: 105.2%
Rutgers Avg. Attendance 2006: 99.06%

One issue Rutgers might have is the size of Rutgers stadium. Right now it holds 41,500 people. It's currently undergoing an expansion and will soon hold 54,000 people. That would still be ahead of Indiana, Minnesota and Northwestern. But would the Big10(11) want a bigger commitment than that? Investing more money in the football program at Rutgers right now could be difficult, politically & financially. Another problem Rutgers might have is the size of it's Endowment (if that's even a factor in these decisions?). Its endowment of $654m would rank lowest in the Big10(11).

[Seahawks Fan]

Rutgers brings the New York market to the Big Ten. That's big.

[ElSissy]

Again, Penn State and Notre Dame are bigger draws in NYC. Rutgers is insignificant in NYC television ratings.

[seantaylor]

Pitt is the logical choice. The Big 10 has the best academics of any conference in regards to public schools.

[Go...gate]

Again, Penn State and Notre Dame are bigger draws in NYC. Rutgers is insignificant in NYC television ratings.

El Cid, you may not have not followed them very closely in the last few years. They have had very good ratings in the NYC market for football and overflow crowds for all home games. They even get the Empire State Building bathed in red and white light for their national TV games.

[OhioHen]

Why not expand? The Little Eleven already doesn't know how to count, so why worry about how many teams they have?

[89Hen]

All the other Big 10 schools are flagship state schools or at least land grant universities. Some states have two flagships if you will with Indiana and Purdue and Michigan and Michigan State.

Pitt and Rutgers are both quite strong academically, but Pitt doesnt really fit the flagship profile.
Northwestern xwhistlex

[Franks Tanks]

Northwestern xwhistlex

I am aware of Northwestern.

I should have said "all the state schools are land grant or major state universities"

[CollegeSportsInfo]

A few things...

Norte Dame:
Yes, Notre Dame is the first choice. Paterno would have certainly listed them first had they not turned down an invite in 1999. But if the NBC deal is ever pulled from ND, then they could revisit the idea. Also, if the BCS ever changed and Notre Dame was forced into a conference, they might still join the Big Ten over a potentially split Big East. Take away the private schools and Notre Dame is a poorer fit in the Big East.

Overall Expansion goals:
If the Big Ten were to expand, they'd certainly go with the basics of success (current and potential) of programs, and travel ease but will almost certainly factor in market access since they have the Big Ten network. Access into the NYC market for the Big Ten network would be huge. The key though is determining the access point. There are actually three options that would add a huge number of potential new viewers to it:

Syracuse:
With such a big alumni base in NYC, Philadelphia and Boston, they are a logical fit. They have been in one of the best spots as the ACC almost selected them (forced to take VPI). Funny how Syracuse has been loading up on Big Ten OOC games of late...just like they did in 2003 with the ACC.

Rutgers:
Similar spot as Syracuse, and has been given a big boost in their candidate ranks with the football growth over the years. Penn St. has a home-and-home scheduled with them and that will be the biggest game ever at Rutgers. Again, NY is one of the top alumni bases for a big number of Big Ten schools (after Chicago) and probably the top candidate (after Notre Dame of course).

Pitt:
Ignore JoPa's comments. He only included Pitt so that what he said would be taken seriously and that the point of the interview wouldn't be flipped in PA as JoPa lobbying against Pitt. Pitt makes the least sense of all candidates since Penn St. brings the market already and the entire state.

UConn:
Rarely mentioned in the past since they had FCS football and not then I-A. But times change. UConn would bring the markets since so many alumni are in NY and Boston. Football has improved and they play in Hartford. And basketball is a better option that most other candidates (hurts to say that as a UMass fan). But who knows what will happen after Calhoun leaves.


Other candidates mentioned:

Missouri:
A good fit for sure. But the Big Ten already does well in the St. Louis market due to Illini fans. Would they add a state like Missouri rather than expanding to the east coast? Maybe, but Notre Dame and Missouri seem like only worthwhile options.

Iowa St:
Makes less sense when you already have Iowa and have only one spot to fill. Iowa St. is hardly a homerun pick.

Nebraska:
An interesting pick. Would be a homerun from the football side but again, market comes into play when dealing with the TV contract and the Big Ten network.

[ElSissy]

Missouri would also add Kansas City and solidify the St. Louis market. However, they would have to pay a large penalty to leave the Big 12 and they will absolutely not do anything to jeopardize their rivalry with Kansas.

Pitt fits the bill as a significant research university, but as you said, Penn State already locks up the Philly and P'burgh markets.

Syracuse is a good choice in most respects, but they are a basketball school in a basketball conference. Not sure they'd be willing to give up Big East basketball for Big Ten football.

Rutgers has had some recent success in football, but that is in the Big East. Could they really compete in the Big Ten? I'm still not convinced that they have much more than bandwagon followers at this point and Penn State and Notre Dame still dominate the New York City tv market. New York City isn't really one of the more important college football tv markets. NYC just isn't a college football town.

Iowa St. adds nothing but a top wrestling program. That won't cut it.

Nebraska isn't up to snuff academically. They approached the Big Ten in the 90s and were rejected.

UConn isn't a major research university as are the current Big Ten schools. Also, there is a geography issue. I'm not familiar with UConn's facilities in all sports, but they would have to be top-flight to be considered for Big Ten membership. When Penn State joined the Big Ten, they had to promise to upgrade their basketball facilities almost immediately.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Syracuse is a good choice in most respects, but they are a basketball school in a basketball conference. Not sure they'd be willing to give up Big East basketball for Big Ten football.


Syracuse would never give up their rivalries in bball for Big Ten football. Anyone who's ever been to the Carrier Dome know they live and die 'Cuse hoops in North Central NY. Syracuse does have a proud football tradition but i don't think the interest has been equal to bball in the last 25-30 years. Syracuse has nothing in common with Purdue, Indiana, Iowa etc. The fans, administration, students etc. identify with UCONN, Boston College, Pitt, WVU even Cornell, Bucknell, Lehigh etc, than they do schools in the Big Ten. If you look at apps for students at Syracuse most of them apply to BC, PL schools, maybe a couple Ivies, and schools like Pitt, Buffalo, Rutgers, Temple, Umass and some of the other SUNY's (Binghamton, Albany, Oswego).

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Syracuse would never give up their rivalries in bball for Big Ten football. Anyone who's ever been to the Carrier Dome know they live and die 'Cuse hoops in North Central NY. Syracuse does have a proud football tradition but i don't think the interest has been equal to bball in the last 25-30 years. Syracuse has nothing in common with Purdue, Indiana, Iowa etc. The fans, administration, students etc. identify with UCONN, Boston College, Pitt, WVU even Cornell, Bucknell, Lehigh etc, than they do schools in the Big Ten. If you look at apps for students at Syracuse most of them apply to BC, PL schools, maybe a couple Ivies, and schools like Pitt, Buffalo, Rutgers, Temple, Umass and some of the other SUNY's (Binghamton, Albany, Oswego).

Negatory. A gigantic flaw in your logic: Syracuse already PLANNED on leaving the Big East. They were out the door, had expected it for well over a year and changed their schedule accordingly. If it weren't for a last second hail mary by the Virginia Governors office, Syracuse would have been the 11th member of the ACC (giving up the Big East rivalries).

There are certain assumptions that the various conference admins consider as fact:
* ANY Big East school would accept a Big Ten invite (Notre Dame excluded since they are not a full member of Big East football).
* Missouri, Iowa St. and Nebraska have all expressed interest but have high Big 12 penalties they'd be forced to pay
* The Big Ten would not look outside of the Big East, Notre Dame or the 3 Big 12 schools for candidates with the only outside shot being Maryland, albeit a loooooong shot (based on previous conversations).

[CollegeSportsInfo]

And a note from one of the members of my site worth sharing:

"A note on the possibility of UConn. In order to add them you would have to change the conference constitution. Currently it says that any team that is added needs to be in a state with a Big Ten school or in a state that borders a state with a Big Ten school. Connecticut doesn't fit the bill. Other than that I can easily see them as possibility on the same level of Pittsburgh. A chance but obviously a second tier choice."

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Negatory. A gigantic flaw in your logic: Syracuse already PLANNED on leaving the Big East. They were out the door, had expected it for well over a year and changed their schedule accordingly. If it weren't for a last second hail mary by the Virginia Governors office, Syracuse would have been the 11th member of the ACC (giving up the Big East rivalries).

There are certain assumptions that the various conference admins consider as fact:
* ANY Big East school would accept a Big Ten invite (Notre Dame excluded since they are not a full member of Big East football).
* Missouri, Iowa St. and Nebraska have all expressed interest but have high Big 12 penalties they'd be forced to pay
* The Big Ten would not look outside of the Big East, Notre Dame or the 3 Big 12 schools for candidates with the only outside shot being Maryland, albeit a loooooong shot (based on previous conversations).

Not really. The ACC has a lot more "peer" schools than the Big Ten. Syracuse would be a complete fish out of water in that conference. The ACC at least has Duke, Wake, Clemson, Miami, and Boston College who . There is no way anyone at Syraucse would associate with the Big Ten schools. The ACC is at least a bball conference.

[89Hen]

I am aware of Northwestern.

I should have said "all the state schools are land grant or major state universities"
Yes, you should because that's a HUGE distinction. To say that a Cincy or Pitt or whomever would be the oddball just doesn't hold water. xpeacex

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, you should because that's a HUGE distinction. To say that a Cincy or Pitt or whomever would be the oddball just doesn't hold water. xpeacex

Yes it does-- Cincy is an average school athletically and academically.

Yes, Northwestern is an oddball as well, but they have been in the Big 10 for 80 years or so and have built rivalries

[Big Al]

Thats kind of what I am getting at... Iowa has nothing Iowa State has nothing why not let them play each other for th Corn Cup and make something out of it.

Just to put the lie to this idea -- Iowa has the 4th highest football winning percentage in the Big Ten over the last 30 years. Only Michigan, OSU and Penn State are higher -- everyone else (including MSU) is below .500.

Also, Iowa BB in the 80s & 90s was a top-flight school, as well -- if not for Bobby Knight in Indiana, they'd probabably have a few B10 championships to show for it. As it is, they got in the tourney 13 out of 19 years from '80-'99. It's been a graveyard since bringing in Alford (and now Lickliter).

Wrestling, is, of course, always top flight.

Women's sports are above average, as well, with the women's hoops at the top of the Big 10 the last 2 years.

Iowa isn't an elite school by any means, but they are definitely one of the better schools in the Big 10 (and, by extension, nationwide).

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Not really. The ACC has a lot more "peer" schools than the Big Ten. Syracuse would be a complete fish out of water in that conference. The ACC at least has Duke, Wake, Clemson, Miami, and Boston College who . There is no way anyone at Syraucse would associate with the Big Ten schools. The ACC is at least a bball conference.

Gotcha. I'm curious though. Is this an "opinion" set of posts or is this based on facts. I've never heard a word from Daryl Gross nor Jake Crouthamel that would support them. They've toed the conference line when they've needed to but Crouthamel was always a visionary about the changing conference structures in college sports.

I understand your hope of a school maintaining a rivalry they might have with another school (Cuse vs UConn). But don't you think it seems like a stretch to be saying that a school would turn down increased revenues and the opportunity to join a more prestigious conference both academically and athletically with the only reason being to keep playing the likes of Cincy, USF, Rutgers, Marquette, DePaul, Seton Hall, etc?

[CollegeSportsInfo]

From Jim Delany about expansion:

"The issue has come up with our football coaches a couple times -- with the extra week and if we did expand, would we be more competitive?" Delany said. "I would say in some years they might be right. But has it enhanced the competitiveness of the ACC in football? Has it enhanced the competitiveness of the WAC? I don't know.

"There are a lot [of schools] that could take a lot away, but there aren't a lot that could bring so much to make the choice an easy one. You have to have a lot to make something go like this, and it's broader than really a championship game or a basketball tournament."


Let's hope his WAC comments were about an extra week and not a conference championship game (since the WAC is not a 12 team conference).

[ElSissy]

Delany isn't going to do anything to diminish the Ohio State/Michigan game. A CCG would diminish it. Allowing teams to play an OOC game after the OSU/Mich game would diminish it (at least in the eyes of the Big Ten). That means Penn State and Pitt will not renew their late November rivalry.

The truth is that Ohio State and Michigan own the Big Ten. All other schools are expected to defer to those schools and their rivalry. It's one reason why I have never liked seeing Penn State in the Big Ten. There should have been an eastern all-sport conference, but Pitt and Syracuse wouldn't allow it to happen.

[Hammerhead]

That kind of puts the pissing match between NDSU and UND are in perspective. I had to google those guys to find out they date back nearly 70 years!


ND really does not want this. The administration and many alumni have long memories back to the days when Fielding Yost and Fritz Crisler of Michigan, among others, in the Western Conference (later the Big Six and even later the Big Ten) wanted no part of ND and would not even schedule them. So if the Big Ten were to expand, it probably would be Pitt, Missouri, Syracuse or Rutgers.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Delany isn't going to do anything to diminish the Ohio State/Michigan game. A CCG would diminish it. Allowing teams to play an OOC game after the OSU/Mich game would diminish it (at least in the eyes of the Big Ten). That means Penn State and Pitt will not renew their late November rivalry.

The truth is that Ohio State and Michigan own the Big Ten. All other schools are expected to defer to those schools and their rivalry. It's one reason why I have never liked seeing Penn State in the Big Ten. There should have been an eastern all-sport conference, but Pitt and Syracuse wouldn't allow it to happen.

Based on recent interviews with Tranghese, that's not exactly the case. Sure, we all thought it was. But apparently, Syracuse wanted Penn St. to get the Big East invite and is on the record of voting in favor of it. While all the votes aren't public, it seems that it was the basketball schools who were voting against their invite, and Penn St. was only down 2 votes from being invited.

What could have been:
Boston College
UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
Penn St.
Pittsburgh
WVU
Virginia Tech
Miami
* Notre Dame (non-football 10th member)

The inclusion of Penn St. at that time would have made this a strong conference. Oh well, what could have been.

[Franks Tanks]

Based on recent interviews with Tranghese, that's not exactly the case. Sure, we all thought it was. But apparently, Syracuse wanted Penn St. to get the Big East invite and is on the record of voting in favor of it. While all the votes aren't public, it seems that it was the basketball schools who were voting against their invite, and Penn St. was only down 2 votes from being invited.

What could have been:
Boston College
UConn
Syracuse
Rutgers
Penn St.
Pittsburgh
WVU
Virginia Tech
Miami
* Notre Dame (non-football 10th member)

The inclusion of Penn St. at that time would have made this a strong conference. Oh well, what could have been.

That conference makes too much sense therefore it could never work

[OSBF]

Missouri or Iowa State are the 2 most logical choices for Big 10 expansion. They are large, land grant, agricultural, public, research universities. They fit. Northwestern is the fish out of water

[ISUMatt]

Missouri or Iowa State are the 2 most logical choices for Big 10 expansion. They are large, land grant, agricultural, public, research universities. They fit. Northwestern is the fish out of water

They need Northwesternh to keep the Conference GPA up LOL

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

They need Northwesternh to keep the Conference GPA up LOL

As a whole the Big Ten is probably the best collection of Universities of any FBS conference. The lowest ranked school is either Iowa or Michigan State. Every other school is ranked in the top 25 with Northwestern, Michigan, Penn State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Illinois and Minnesota all ranked in the top 50.

[Franks Tanks]

As a whole the Big Ten is probably the best collection of Universities of any FBS conference. The lowest ranked school is either Iowa or Michigan State. Every other school is ranked in the top 25 with Northwestern, Michigan, Penn State, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Illinois and Minnesota all ranked in the top 50.

I agree--the PAC-10 is the only other conference in the discussion.

Stanford, CAL, and UCLA are top 25 universities.

USC, Washington, Oregon and Arizona are very solid.

It drops off a bit with Oregon, Wash, and Arizona State.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

If they expand to 12 teams they should call it the Obese 12, so as not to be confused with the Big 12

[ElSissy]

If they expand with a school that is in a Big Ten state, one of the names I've heard the new conference might have is the Great Lakes Conference or the Great 12 (as a reference to the Great Lakes).

[CollegeSportsInfo]

If they expand with a school that is in a Big Ten state, one of the names I've heard the new conference might have is the Great Lakes Conference or the Great 12 (as a reference to the Great Lakes).

I'm sure the "Great Lakes Conference" and the "Great Lakes Valley Conference" will appreciate the extra revenue via the lawsuit.

[Go...gate]

That kind of puts the pissing match between NDSU and UND are in perspective. I had to google those guys to find out they date back nearly 70 years!

There were some very hard feelings there, until Moose Krause and the Michigan AD decided in 1968 to end the madness and start playing BB and FB on a regular basis again in 1978. Talk about a natural matchup!