View Full Version : Talladega Finish
BDKJMU
April 28th, 2009, 05:14 AM
Surprised no one has talked about this amazing finish yet. Wow!
1st here is video from the lap 7 wreck, "The Big One":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7ruiRLRa4Q
There's numerous videos of the finish, includeding one with currently almost 150k views, but this one includes most of the last 2 laps with a little bit spliced out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LY3L2J6Lgk
But the youtube video doesn't do this the justice of watching this on a big screen in HD with surround sound. One of the best finishes I've seen in a long time.
Nascar: Talladega 2009 Aaron's 499 Post Race Interviews:
As you can see, from up against the double yellow line, Brad Keselowski went high, Carl Edwards went high to block, then Keselowski went low, got inside of Edwards, Ewards then came down, (Edwards later said that he didn't realize Keselowski had gotten inside of him) and you can see the result. If Keselowski, already up against the double yellow line had gone below the double yellow line to avoid (and possibly) pass Edwards, he would have been disqualified, so it wasn't his fault, as both Keselowski and Edwards later said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn2x9MtyqVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvr5rw-eRzM
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 06:31 AM
The possibility still exists, if the fence remains the same at Talladega, that a car already airborne could be tipped up enough by another car to clear the catch fence. To think this unthinkable scenario, with a car probably still doing 150+ mph by the time it reached the bleachers, it would probably tumble over hundreds of spectators before coming to rest. It would make the 1955 LeMans tragedy (where ~80 died) look small in comparison.
For this reason, I have never chosen to sit near the fence at any race, from NASCAR on down to the local dirt tracks.
NASCAR must go higher with the fence at all tracks, go with a smaller displacement engine without a restrictor plate at Daytona and Talladega, and make a no-sit zone within about 25 feet of the fence (or if unwilling to do that, erect a secondary fence or screen to contain debris, sort of like the end netting in the NHL).
mcveyrl
April 28th, 2009, 08:09 AM
I thought both drivers showed class after the race. It was an amazing and scary finish. It was some quality driving by Keselowoski. If Edwards had stayed outside, it would've been neck and neck at the line.
I agree with 93. It would have taken just a slight change in momentum for Edwards' car to roll up over the fence. Something's got to be done there.
KiddBrewer
April 28th, 2009, 08:36 AM
I thought both drivers showed class after the race. It was an amazing and scary finish. It was some quality driving by Keselowoski. If Edwards had stayed outside, it would've been neck and neck at the line.
I agree with 93. It would have taken just a slight change in momentum for Edwards' car to roll up over the fence. Something's got to be done there.
DEFINATELY one of the craziest thing ive ever seen on t.v.
and yea the first thing i thought when i saw the replay, being a physics major, is how little of a difference would have been needed to send that thing into the stands killing 20+.......xsmhx
BUT.......what can you really do about it? theyve talked about changing the banking at the track...but that will NEVER happen because the fans like that kind of racing....they could slow the cars down more with bigger plates, but all that would do is make the packs they race in bigger, if thats possible, which would in turn cause even more "big one"'s.....they could reduce the size of the plate to allow the cars to go faster which would spread the cars out more and maybe more less wrecks, much like they used to be before plates....(however, then you deal with this kinda thing http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/headlines/cup/06/10/rwallace_talladega/index.html and YOU TALK ABOUT A CAR TAKING OFF if there ever was a wreck......so what do you really do?
the drivers knew exactly what they were getting themselves into when they agreed to drive a car for a living and live in expensive lake front houses on lake norman. if they dont want the risk, they can find somebody else, and they can get a job working in the factory (much like many of the fans that come pay to see them week in and week out)....
the risk of something crazy/terrible happening is one of the biggest draws nascar has, whether thats right or wrong, its true.
KiddBrewer
April 28th, 2009, 08:40 AM
The possibility still exists, if the fence remains the same at Talladega, that a car already airborne could be tipped up enough by another car to clear the catch fence. To think this unthinkable scenario, with a car probably still doing 150+ mph by the time it reached the bleachers, it would probably tumble over hundreds of spectators before coming to rest. It would make the 1955 LeMans tragedy (where ~80 died) look small in comparison.
For this reason, I have never chosen to sit near the fence at any race, from NASCAR on down to the local dirt tracks.
NASCAR must go higher with the fence at all tracks, go with a smaller displacement engine without a restrictor plate at Daytona and Talladega, and make a no-sit zone within about 25 feet of the fence (or if unwilling to do that, erect a secondary fence or screen to contain debris, sort of like the end netting in the NHL).
i agree, i think their only option is to back up the fans or raise the fence.....i think raising the fence is probably the better option...for the fans sake.
mcveyrl
April 28th, 2009, 09:08 AM
DEFINATELY one of the craziest thing ive ever seen on t.v.
and yea the first thing i thought when i saw the replay, being a physics major, is how little of a difference would have been needed to send that thing into the stands killing 20+.......xsmhx
BUT.......what can you really do about it? theyve talked about changing the banking at the track...but that will NEVER happen because the fans like that kind of racing....they could slow the cars down more with bigger plates, but all that would do is make the packs they race in bigger, if thats possible, which would in turn cause even more "big one"'s.....they could reduce the size of the plate to allow the cars to go faster which would spread the cars out more and maybe more less wrecks, much like they used to be before plates....(however, then you deal with this kinda thing http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/headlines/cup/06/10/rwallace_talladega/index.html and YOU TALK ABOUT A CAR TAKING OFF if there ever was a wreck......so what do you really do?
the drivers knew exactly what they were getting themselves into when they agreed to drive a car for a living and live in expensive lake front houses on lake norman. if they dont want the risk, they can find somebody else, and they can get a job working in the factory (much like many of the fans that come pay to see them week in and week out)....
the risk of something crazy/terrible happening is one of the biggest draws nascar has, whether thats right or wrong, its true.
Couldn't they reinforce the fence and change the angle?
89Hen
April 28th, 2009, 09:44 AM
a smaller displacement engine without a restrictor plate at Daytona and Talladega
I don't know enough about engines to know what that will do?
jstate83
April 28th, 2009, 09:54 AM
Talladega live up to the hype it get's every year.
That finish was bullshat.
YOU DON'T DRIVE UNDER SOMEONE'S BACK BUMPER LIKE THAT WHEN IT IS CLEAR THE CAR IN THE LEAD HAS THE INSIDE TRACK.
Both showed class but ole boy that caused the wreck should have gotten his arse kicked for that.
And poor M&M #18.xlmaox
That dude held off 3 lines of traffic for about 10 laps from the top of the track to the bottom.
I knew his arse was not going to keep getting away with that shat.
Tried to block 2 lanes and got his arse was sent spinning with 7 laps to go. xlolx
Glad JR finally got a good run without someone wrecking him. xnodx
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 09:59 AM
I don't know enough about engines to know what that will do?
It should sort out the field some and avoid the massive, multi-car accidents. I don't think it would have made one bit of difference in the final lap crash, because that was between just two cars.
To say for certain what a smaller displacement engine would do is based solely on educated gues, but goes something like this: Everyone runs a 6-cylinder engine at Daytona and Talladega without a restrictor plate. Top speed might go down to 175 mph, which is the first plus (in regards to safety). The second plus is that without the restrictor plate (let's call it the socialist plate for you conservatives out there) making everyone equal, the true genius engine builders can eek out more horsepower than the less genius builders and those cars will leave the pack, causing less bunching, frustration, loss of patience, risky maneuvering to get by, accidents, etc.
89Hen
April 28th, 2009, 09:59 AM
YOU DON'T DRIVE UNDER SOMEONE'S BACK BUMPER LIKE THAT WHEN IT IS CLEAR THE CAR IN THE LEAD HAS THE INSIDE TRACK.
Both showed class but ole boy that caused the wreck should have gotten his arse kicked for that.
xconfusedx xsmhx He went high, got blocked, went low and took the spot. Edwards would have been pissed had he thought for a second that it was the kid's fault. CE has never been one to shy away from speaking his mind about other drivers. xrulesx
ISUMatt
April 28th, 2009, 10:01 AM
[B]YOU DON'T DRIVE UNDER SOMEONE'S BACK BUMPER LIKE THAT WHEN IT IS
So you just sit there and let the guy block the whole track? I dont think So...Carl didnt check the inside and thats what happens...He could have finished 1st or 2nd, but opted to take the risk and finished 25th...should have just let him go
mcveyrl
April 28th, 2009, 10:05 AM
xconfusedx xsmhx He went high, got blocked, went low and took the spot. Edwards would have been pissed had he thought for a second that it was the kid's fault. CE has never been one to shy away from speaking his mind about other drivers. xrulesx
Yea, if you look at where contact occurred, Kesewhosiwhazski's front quarter panel hit Edwards rear quarter panel. He was in the spot. It would be different if it was fender to bumper.
The problem is that he can't go below the yellow line and Edwards said he didn't know he was that far up on him. I'd like to see them grant safety waivers for the yellow line rule, but I'm not sure how you enforce that. Then, when Edwards came down he could dip below and gun it to the checkered flag.
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 10:08 AM
Time to put those bumper sensors in NASCAR like my wife has on her minivan! Edwards hears the beep and knows he can't go low.
mcveyrl
April 28th, 2009, 10:16 AM
Time to put those bumper sensors in NASCAR like my wife has on her minivan! Edwards hears the beep and knows he can't go low.
xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx
How annoying would THAT get at the plate tracks??
89Hen
April 28th, 2009, 10:17 AM
It should sort out the field some and avoid the massive, multi-car accidents.
And it would put half the fannies in the seats so there'd be less people to kill. :p
89Hen
April 28th, 2009, 10:18 AM
So you just sit there and let the guy block the whole track? I dont think So...Carl didnt check the inside and thats what happens...He could have finished 1st or 2nd, but opted to take the risk and finished 25th...should have just let him go
xnodx No telling if BK had enough of run to actually make the pass.
jstate83
April 28th, 2009, 10:38 AM
So you just sit there and let the guy block the whole track? I dont think So...Carl didnt check the inside and thats what happens...He could have finished 1st or 2nd, but opted to take the risk and finished 25th...should have just let him go
Dude was in the lead comming around the final turn.
The other car did not even get off his back bumper.
He ran right up into his left tail-light. xlolx
What was Carl going to check when he looked to his left and there was nothing on his left side but clean track and then ......................... OOPS.......... Car go Flying.xlolx
That shat was wrong.
Carl was just driving along in his 1st place groove when he got clipped.
This guy blocked 3 lanes of traffic for 10 laps.
There were many times he should have been taken out driving all over the track like that.
He drove down into another car's fender one time to many.
xlmaox
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/08content/nascar/toyota/lasvegas/busch-nascar-cup-pole.jpg
mcveyrl
April 28th, 2009, 10:54 AM
Dude was in the lead comming around the final turn.
The other car did not even get off his back bumper.
He ran right up into his left tail-light. xlolx
What was Carl going to check when he looked to his left and there was nothing on his left side but clean track and then ......................... OOPS.......... Car go Flying.xlolx
That shat was wrong.
Carl was just driving along in his 1st place groove when he got clipped.
This guy blocked 3 lanes of traffic for 10 laps.
There were many times he should have been taken out driving all over the track like that.
He drove down into another car's fender one time to many.
xlmaox
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/08content/nascar/toyota/lasvegas/busch-nascar-cup-pole.jpg
Did you watch the race or listen to the interviews afterward? Edwards even said that he was coming down the track when the wreck happened. Edwards was trying to do exactly what the 18 had been doing all day. I don't have any particular problem with that on the last lap, but you're right, doing it for 10 laps means you're too slow...
OSBF
April 28th, 2009, 11:16 AM
It should sort out the field some and avoid the massive, multi-car accidents. I don't think it would have made one bit of difference in the final lap crash, because that was between just two cars.
To say for certain what a smaller displacement engine would do is based solely on educated gues, but goes something like this: Everyone runs a 6-cylinder engine at Daytona and Talladega without a restrictor plate. Top speed might go down to 175 mph, which is the first plus (in regards to safety). The second plus is that without the restrictor plate (let's call it the socialist plate for you conservatives out there) making everyone equal, the true genius engine builders can eek out more horsepower than the less genius builders and those cars will leave the pack, causing less bunching, frustration, loss of patience, risky maneuvering to get by, accidents, etc.
It also would allow the cars to actually have some throttle response and acceleration. It wouldn't take 2 full laps to get 'em wound up to full speed even when you have the right foot firmly planted on the floor. You might be able to accelerate away from trouble or out of a bad situation.
The bad part is the $$$ it would take for teams to have seperate engine programs, of course I guess they have that already as a plate engine is considerably different already from an open engine.
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 11:21 AM
The bad part is the $$$ it would take for teams to have seperate engine programs, of course I guess they have that already as a plate engine is considerably different already from an open engine.
Very true. The teams would fight it tooth and nail as it would eat into profits to have two engine programs. Regarding your second point, the restrictor plate engines aren't any different than non-restrictor plates. They simply bolt the plate between the carburetor and intake.
OSBF
April 28th, 2009, 11:31 AM
Very true. The teams would fight it tooth and nail as it would eat into profits to have two engine programs. Regarding your second point, the restrictor plate engines aren't any different than non-restrictor plates. They simply bolt the plate between the carburetor and intake.
Actually, not the case at all. Plate engines are quite a bit different than open engines, designed specifically for low end torque and tuned to produce more power lower in the powerband at lower RPM. The daytona and 'dega plate engines are actually quite different from an Atlanta/Texas/Vegas engine that they routinely spin at 9000-10000 RPM's.
Friend of mine works for an ARCA/Re-max series team out of Central Illinois. Used to wrench for Jimmie Johnson back in his ARCA and ASA days. We've had this exact same discussion hundreds of times. The drivers would GLADLY give up top end to have a little bit of acceleration and throttle response. They almost universaly hate the plate, but for now its a necessary evil.
Retro
April 28th, 2009, 11:33 AM
Dude was in the lead comming around the final turn.
The other car did not even get off his back bumper.
He ran right up into his left tail-light. xlolx
What was Carl going to check when he looked to his left and there was nothing on his left side but clean track and then ......................... OOPS.......... Car go Flying.xlolx
That shat was wrong.
Carl was just driving along in his 1st place groove when he got clipped.
This guy blocked 3 lanes of traffic for 10 laps.
There were many times he should have been taken out driving all over the track like that.
He drove down into another car's fender one time to many.
xlmaox
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/08content/nascar/toyota/lasvegas/busch-nascar-cup-pole.jpg
It's called drafting and bump drafting. That's what Brad was doing.. Perfectly acceptable in racing... Brad faked high, carl blocked, Brad went low and was just inside Car's left qtr pnl and Brad didn't back off or drop below yellow line, so carl spun and the rest is history.... If you watch racing on a regular basis, you'll learn about these things.xthumbsupx
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 11:34 AM
Actually, not the case at all. Plate engines are quite a bit different than open engines, designed specifically for low end torque and tuned to produce more power lower in the powerband at lower RPM. The daytona and 'dega plate engines are actually quite different from an Atlanta/Texas/Vegas engine that they routinely spin at 9000-10000 RPM's.
Friend of mine works for an ARCA/Re-max series team out of Central Illinois. Used to wrench for Jimmie Johnson back in his ARCA and ASA days. We've had this exact same discussion hundreds of times. The drivers would GLADLY give up top end to have a little bit of acceleration and throttle response. They almost universaly hate the plate, but for now its a necessary evil.
Sure the gearing is different, but the engines are the same.
OSBF
April 28th, 2009, 11:40 AM
Sure the gearing is different, but the engines are the same.
The engines aren't even close to being the same animal. Completely diffetent.
OSBF
April 28th, 2009, 11:50 AM
From the DEI website:
Each Nextel Cup Series team has roughly eighteen engines assigned for testing and racing. The Busch Series teams have around 12 engines because their season is shorter and they will re-race an engine before it is rebuilt. The Engine Department has a separate division working exclusively on restrictor plate race engine development. This is a major contributing factor in Dale Earnhardt, Inc.’s domination at the restrictor plate races.
Four full-time and one part-time, in-house team runs Dale Earnhardt, Inc. horsepower under their hoods. Each team requires 12 engines for the season. Of these 60 engines DEI is responsible for fabricating, 30 are restrictor plate engines. The price tag for all this power weighs heavily at $35,000 for an “open” engine and $55,000 for a ‘restricted’ engine.
http://www.daleearnhardtinc.com/content/motorsports/production_reader.aspx?c=engine
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 12:05 PM
From the DEI website:
Each Nextel Cup Series team has roughly eighteen engines assigned for testing and racing. The Busch Series teams have around 12 engines because their season is shorter and they will re-race an engine before it is rebuilt. The Engine Department has a separate division working exclusively on restrictor plate race engine development. This is a major contributing factor in Dale Earnhardt, Inc.’s domination at the restrictor plate races.
Four full-time and one part-time, in-house team runs Dale Earnhardt, Inc. horsepower under their hoods. Each team requires 12 engines for the season. Of these 60 engines DEI is responsible for fabricating, 30 are restrictor plate engines. The price tag for all this power weighs heavily at $35,000 for an “open” engine and $55,000 for a ‘restricted’ engine.
http://www.daleearnhardtinc.com/content/motorsports/production_reader.aspx?c=engine
I agree with everything there. Still, the engines are the same. It's a NASCAR mandate. You can tune the engines to perform for various tracks, put different gears in the tranny, etc, but they're the same engine, other than restrictor plates at Talladega and Daytona.
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 12:10 PM
Actually, when I step back and think about what you are saying and what I am saying OSBF, I think we are both right.
What I'm saying is that NASCAR has a set of inspection criteria of the engine that does not change from track to track, with the exception of measuring the restrictor plate clearance at Daytona and Talladega. To a NASCAR official, the engines are thus the "same" when inspecting at every track, by manufacturer.
That being said, you are correct in that the engines are built specifically for the respective application.
We're both right I'd say.
ISUMatt
April 28th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Actually, when I step back and think about what you are saying and what I am saying OSBF, I think we are both right.
We're both right I'd say.
IS THAT POSSIBLE?!?!?!
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 12:31 PM
IS THAT POSSIBLE?!?!?!
Sure.
If Jeff Gordon showed up at Talladega with a 400 ci engine, he'd be disqualified for having an engine that wasn't the same as the other Chevys. He was not disqualified because his engine was the same as all the other Chevys. Same size, same restrictor plate clearance, same number of cylinders, no turbo, naturally aspirated, etc.
That being said, if you dynoed every Chevy after the race, would they make the same exact horsepower? No. Why? Because some engine programs produce a better engine than others working within the rules (and sometimes outside of them until they are caught).
I guess it all comes down to your interpretation of what "the same" means.
This is why we have a court system. :p
89Hen
April 28th, 2009, 12:49 PM
Did you watch the race or listen to the interviews afterward? Edwards even said that he was coming down the track when the wreck happened. Edwards was trying to do exactly what the 18 had been doing all day. I don't have any particular problem with that on the last lap, but you're right, doing it for 10 laps means you're too slow...
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but jstate seems to be the only one who shares his. xeyebrowx
ISUMatt
April 28th, 2009, 12:55 PM
Sure.
No I meant both of you being right
93henfan
April 28th, 2009, 01:02 PM
The more I think about it, I'm going to concede the argument to OSBF because I hate lawyers, and I'm basically making a typical lawyer argument.
BDKJMU
April 28th, 2009, 01:53 PM
DEFINATELY one of the craziest thing ive ever seen on t.v.
and yea the first thing i thought when i saw the replay, being a physics major, is how little of a difference would have been needed to send that thing into the stands killing 20+.......xsmhx
BUT.......what can you really do about it? theyve talked about changing the banking at the track...but that will NEVER happen because the fans like that kind of racing....they could slow the cars down more with bigger plates, but all that would do is make the packs they race in bigger, if thats possible, which would in turn cause even more "big one"'s.....they could reduce the size of the plate to allow the cars to go faster which would spread the cars out more and maybe more less wrecks, much like they used to be before plates....(however, then you deal with this kinda thing http://www.nascar.com/2004/news/headlines/cup/06/10/rwallace_talladega/index.html and YOU TALK ABOUT A CAR TAKING OFF if there ever was a wreck......so what do you really do?
the drivers knew exactly what they were getting themselves into when they agreed to drive a car for a living and live in expensive lake front houses on lake norman. if they dont want the risk, they can find somebody else, and they can get a job working in the factory (much like many of the fans that come pay to see them week in and week out)....
the risk of something crazy/terrible happening is one of the biggest draws nascar has, whether thats right or wrong, its true.
Little OT here. There's conflicting data out there on that. The difference may be the "median income of a NASCAR fan" (I assume including those who both do and don't attend races) Here the median income of a NASCAR fan is reportedly higher than the national avg. From this 05' article:
"NASCAR fans clearly have the money to spend. The median income is $60,000. Yes, more than the national average.". (I'm assuming median family income- back then, the median income was in the upper 40sk.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8546437
But from this 08' article, which is probably 07' income levels, and clearly states fans who attend races, which would exclude fans who don't attend races:
"If they do attend in person, they are more likely to cut back on souvenirs and concessions, yet more bad news for track operators. NASCAR fans who attend races earn a median income of $46,700, less than the overall national median income of $50,200, according to Wachovia Capital Markets research."
http://insiderracingnews.com/Daily/2008/Oct/103008.html
Again, assuming median family (household). And of course the majority of races take place in red states, many of which have a median income below the national avg.
mcveyrl
April 28th, 2009, 02:12 PM
The more I think about it, I'm going to concede the argument to OSBF because I hate lawyers, and I'm basically making a typical lawyer argument.
<----- Offended
jstate83
April 28th, 2009, 02:51 PM
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but jstate seems to be the only one who shares his. xeyebrowx
If you had a brain, you would almost be a human being. xnodx
But then again since when did baiting a-hole's ever have brains. xsmhx
And save the PM mods.
I really don't GAF. xlolx
BDKJMU
April 28th, 2009, 02:59 PM
If you had a brain, you would almost be a human being. xnodx
But then again since when did baiting a-hole's ever have brains. xsmhx
And save the PM mods.
I really don't GAF. xlolx
Wait, Koselowski and Edwards both said Koselowski wasn't at fault. All the FOX announcers (who are former drivers, crew chiefs and are far more knowledgeable on NASCAR than anyone else on here), said the same. As has everyone else here on this board.....But wait, they and we are ALL wrong, and jstate83 is the only one right....xlolxxlolxxlolx
jstate83
April 28th, 2009, 03:37 PM
Wait, Koselowski and Ewards both said Koselowski wasn't at fault. All the FOX announcers (who are former drivers, crew chiefs and are far more knowledgeable on NASCAR than anyone else on here), said the same. As has everyone else here on this board.....But wait, they and we are ALL wrong, and jstate83 is the only one right....xlolxxlolxxlolx
Clown.
I posted what I saw.
One neck ran into the back of another neck and cause a wreck.
Big deal clown. xlolx
Now............Go back and find where I said anyone that posted to me was wrong fool.
You mofo's are retarded when it come's to thinking your opinion is that important.
I could care less but I know that it's dumb monkey see, dumb monkey post in groups on this board.xlolx
And who the fugg are you and where did you come from.
You mean I got another baiting a-hole to post with.
OK..............xsmhx
I was talking about a race that I didn't receive one damm dime for and low and behold, here comes the a-hole crew quoting me time after time.
keep going.
You mofo's are funny. xlolx
BisonAccountant44
April 28th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Actually, when I step back and think about what you are saying and what I am saying OSBF, I think we are both right.
What I'm saying is that NASCAR has a set of inspection criteria of the engine that does not change from track to track, with the exception of measuring the restrictor plate clearance at Daytona and Talladega. To a NASCAR official, the engines are thus the "same" when inspecting at every track, by manufacturer.
That being said, you are correct in that the engines are built specifically for the respective application.
We're both right I'd say.
I'm no expert on the NASCAR rule book, but my guess is you are both right, you're just defining the engines a little differently.
If you go by, what I assume is your definition, then yes. All the NASCAR engines are the same, they're < 360ci, naturally aspirated, 12:1 compression, pushrod engines.
What I assume OSBF is pointing out is that what you need the engines to do at plate tracks is vastly different that at any other track so you're going to have different internals in those engines. You're going to have camshafts with different durations and valve lifts, possibly crankshafts with slightly different strokes, meaning you may have different rod lengths. Any number of differnt things could be done to the heads, and an infinite number other things could be done to any other internal part of the engine depending on the exact rules. So yes the engines should be the "same" but they're also be completly different.
nwFL Griz
April 28th, 2009, 04:28 PM
Clown.
I posted what I saw.
One neck ran into the back of another neck and cause a wreck.
Big deal clown. xlolx
That's the point. No one "ran into the back of" anyone. Keselowski made a move and Edwards came down on him. Keselowski held his ground, well within his right, and Edwards basically wrecked himself. Which is what everyone in the racing world is saying...which is what makes your stance mind-baffling.
Why go to the name calling?
jstate83
April 28th, 2009, 04:33 PM
That's the point. No one "ran into the back of" anyone. Keselowski made a move and Edwards came down on him. Keselowski held his ground, well within his right, and Edwards basically wrecked himself. Which is what everyone in the racing world is saying...which is what makes your stance mind-baffling.
Why go to the name calling?
Why keep posting to me acting like I'm taking a stance on 2 neck's that damm near killed each other.
It's like your ear's and eye's are taped over cause there is no stance.
I don't get in to the math of NASCAR cause it's really not enough interest to get into it.
I see a wreck, I talk about a wreck simple as that.
Here are 3 way to say the same thing.
One fool ran into the back of another, or 2 fool's wrecked at the end, or 1 fool got his back fender in the way of another fool's front bumper.
Take any one of those and go pat yourselves on your mind baffling backs.
Good lawd ya'll can't be this thick. xlolx
Don't come at me with this bullshat now.
I made a post and now all the clown's keep posting to me.
I could care less.
If you don't want ole Jstate83 posting on Neckcar just say so but don't come in here now with the "i'm a victim, he name calling" bullshat after all the baiting that's going on in here by your buddies.xnonox
Please don't post to me again on this.
PLEASE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>xeekx
89Hen
April 28th, 2009, 04:35 PM
Clown.
I posted what I saw.
And nobody agrees with it. Not the drivers involved, not the commentators, not the experts, not anyone else on this thread.... yet I'm the one with no brain. xlolx
89Hen
April 28th, 2009, 04:36 PM
Please don't post to me again on this.
PLEASE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>xeekx
The door is that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Go Lehigh TU Owl
April 28th, 2009, 04:38 PM
A couple thoughts
1. What happened at the end of the race was just racing. I don't believe there was any intent to bump Edwards out of the way on Brad's part.
2. I dont quite get the need keep the cars on the ground completely. I believe at the higher speed tracks cars that go airborne have probably saved numerous drivers from much worse injuries. If NASCAR does keep the cars on the ground then i believe they'll have to come up with other ways to dissapate energy at the high speed tracks.
3. With that said, some tracks need to stop letting people sit in the first 10 rows and put some sort of tight knit fencing to prevent debris from getting through. At the end of the day this is not a common occurance.
4. The irnony of this is people keep comparing this to Allison's crash in '87 and how that brought on the restrictor plate. However, in the first restrictor plate race ever, the 1988 Daytona 500, Richard Petty nearly took out 500+ feet of catch fence in one of the most famous wrecks ever. Nascar didn't flinch a bit even then when their grand plan failed after it's first 150 laps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7Q_W78sHSU
jstate83
April 28th, 2009, 04:42 PM
And nobody agrees with it. Not the drivers involved, not the commentators, not the experts, not anyone else on this thread.... yet I'm the one with no brain. xlolx
The door is that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I knew you would be too damm dumb to know what don't post to me on this again means.xlolx
I just pointed out your name and said this would be the fool to post right back.
You so damm predictable. xlolx
You are that thick cause I told you that I have no stance and I really don't care about any of it.
but I forgot your baiting arse can't comprehend anything so keep posting clown. xlolx
jstate83
April 28th, 2009, 04:47 PM
The door is that way >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Got your little PM or negative/positive rep check mark. xlolx
Upset are we.xlmaox
And about that PM you sent me like a little grade school wimp.xlolx
Right back at you fool.
But next time you call me that, check the red box, not the green box man.
The wrong color takes away the negative meaning of your PM. xlolx
Just dumb man, dumb.xlolx
BDKJMU
April 28th, 2009, 06:31 PM
Clown.
I posted what I saw.
One neck ran into the back of another neck and cause a wreck.
Big deal clown. xlolx
Now............Go back and find where I said anyone that posted to me was wrong fool.
You mofo's are retarded when it come's to thinking your opinion is that important.
I could care less but I know that it's dumb monkey see, dumb monkey post in groups on this board.xlolx
And who the fugg are you and where did you come from.
You mean I got another baiting a-hole to post with.
OK..............xsmhx
I was talking about a race that I didn't receive one damm dime for and low and behold, here comes the a-hole crew quoting me time after time.
keep going.
You mofo's are funny. xlolx
Everyone invlolved in NASCAR, including Edwards, has said Keselowski was not at fault. If 99.9% of the people see one thing, and you see another, who is the blind idiot, Mr Clown?
Hey, its a free country. You can be a a blind idiot if you wish.
thefortyniner
April 28th, 2009, 06:35 PM
Yea, if you look at where contact occurred, Kesewhosiwhazski's front quarter panel hit Edwards rear quarter panel. He was in the spot. It would be different if it was fender to bumper.
The problem is that he can't go below the yellow line and Edwards said he didn't know he was that far up on him. I'd like to see them grant safety waivers for the yellow line rule, but I'm not sure how you enforce that. Then, when Edwards came down he could dip below and gun it to the checkered flag.
Gun it? There is no gun it at Talladega... you're flat out all day.
jstate83
April 29th, 2009, 07:39 AM
Everyone invlolved in NASCAR, including Edwards, has said Keselowski was not at fault. If 99.9% of the people see one thing, and you see another, who is the blind idiot, Mr Clown?
Hey, its a free country. You can be a a blind idiot if you wish.
Hey dumbarse bend over and take it hillbilly.xsmhx
Go back and read where I said THERE IS NO STANCE.
Do you honestly think I GAF this much about NASCAR and the neck's that participate?
Can you follow instructions dumbarse.
Let's see cause the other blind jackarse mofo's could not.
PLEASE DON'T POST TO ME ABOUT THIS NON-SENSE AGAIN.xlolx
Again.xoopsx
You mofo's get stuck on yourself way too fast.
Especially a dumb arse byotch boy like you.
Now let's see just how stupid you really are by comming back with a 12 page post on the nut's and bolt's of left turns that I honestly don't give a shat about arsewipe.xsmhx
And yes mods.
After all the baiting and attack's by these hillbillies on me, I know it's my fault so save it.xnodx
I already know.xlolx
89Hen
April 29th, 2009, 08:09 AM
I knew you would be too damm dumb to know what don't post to me on this again means.xlolx
I just pointed out your name and said this would be the fool to post right back.
You so damm predictable. xlolx
You are that thick cause I told you that I have no stance and I really don't care about any of it.
but I forgot your baiting arse can't comprehend anything so keep posting clown. xlolx
xlolx xlolx Too friggin funny. You don't have a stance and don't care about it...
Talladega live up to the hype it get's every year.
That finish was bullshat.
YOU DON'T DRIVE UNDER SOMEONE'S BACK BUMPER LIKE THAT WHEN IT IS CLEAR THE CAR IN THE LEAD HAS THE INSIDE TRACK.
Both showed class but ole boy that caused the wreck should have gotten his arse kicked for that.
And poor M&M #18.xlmaox
That dude held off 3 lines of traffic for about 10 laps from the top of the track to the bottom.
I knew his arse was not going to keep getting away with that shat.
Tried to block 2 lanes and got his arse was sent spinning with 7 laps to go. xlolx
Glad JR finally got a good run without someone wrecking him. xnodx
Dude was in the lead comming around the final turn.
The other car did not even get off his back bumper.
He ran right up into his left tail-light. xlolx
What was Carl going to check when he looked to his left and there was nothing on his left side but clean track and then ......................... OOPS.......... Car go Flying.xlolx
That shat was wrong.
Carl was just driving along in his 1st place groove when he got clipped.
This guy blocked 3 lanes of traffic for 10 laps.
There were many times he should have been taken out driving all over the track like that.
He drove down into another car's fender one time to many.
xlmaox
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/08content/nascar/toyota/lasvegas/busch-nascar-cup-pole.jpg
Clown.
I posted what I saw.
One neck ran into the back of another neck and cause a wreck.
Big deal clown. xlolx
Now............Go back and find where I said anyone that posted to me was wrong fool.
You mofo's are retarded when it come's to thinking your opinion is that important.
I could care less but I know that it's dumb monkey see, dumb monkey post in groups on this board.xlolx
And who the fugg are you and where did you come from.
You mean I got another baiting a-hole to post with.
OK..............xsmhx
I was talking about a race that I didn't receive one damm dime for and low and behold, here comes the a-hole crew quoting me time after time.
keep going.
You mofo's are funny. xlolx
Why keep posting to me acting like I'm taking a stance on 2 neck's that damm near killed each other.
It's like your ear's and eye's are taped over cause there is no stance.
I don't get in to the math of NASCAR cause it's really not enough interest to get into it.
I see a wreck, I talk about a wreck simple as that.
Here are 3 way to say the same thing.
One fool ran into the back of another, or 2 fool's wrecked at the end, or 1 fool got his back fender in the way of another fool's front bumper.
Take any one of those and go pat yourselves on your mind baffling backs.
Good lawd ya'll can't be this thick. xlolx
Don't come at me with this bullshat now.
I made a post and now all the clown's keep posting to me.
I could care less.
If you don't want ole Jstate83 posting on Neckcar just say so but don't come in here now with the "i'm a victim, he name calling" bullshat after all the baiting that's going on in here by your buddies.xnonox
Please don't post to me again on this.
PLEASE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>xeekx
89Hen
April 29th, 2009, 08:10 AM
But next time you call me that, check the red box, not the green box man.
The wrong color takes away the negative meaning of your PM. xlolx
Just dumb man, dumb.xlolx
Wasn't a mistake. I don't give neg rep any more, but I will give you a neg comment and it is 100% warranted.
mcveyrl
April 29th, 2009, 08:14 AM
Gun it? There is no gun it at Talladega... you're flat out all day.
That's true...
jstate83
April 29th, 2009, 08:32 AM
xlolx xlolx Too friggin funny. You don't have a stance and don't care about it...
Wasn't a mistake. I don't give neg rep any more, but I will give you a neg comment and it is 100% warranted.
Just dumb man.
Just plain dumb and blind.
Just plain dumb, blind, and can't read either.
What part of who gives a shat about nascar don't your dumb arse understand fool.
What part of don't post to me again about this non-sense don't you understand fool.
You bout a dumb annoying mofo. xlolx
And remember your comment to me AZZHOLE..............THAT IS WHAT YOU PM'ED TO ME ISN'T IT AZZHOLE.
Quit being an dumb, annoying child, and stop posting AZZHOLE. xlolx
You are really entertaining the people around me with your annoying dumbarse, know everything post.
Keep going cause asking you to stop is like asking a retarded 1 month old baby to read Shakespeare. xlolx
You so stuck on yourself, I'm surprised you have not gotten yourself pregnant without the help of a 2nd party. xlmaox
93henfan
April 29th, 2009, 08:37 AM
http://www.fearthebeard.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/mr-t-says.jpg
89Hen
April 29th, 2009, 09:08 AM
What part of who gives a shat about nascar don't your dumb arse understand fool.
What part of don't post to me again about this non-sense don't you understand fool.
I guess the part where you've posted over half a dozen times in a NASCAR thread each time expressing an opinion that nobody here or in the NASCAR world agrees with. Once again you've demonstrated why I called you that. I'm not sure I ever recall anyone else at AGS to tell somebody else to stop posting (other than a mod). xnonono2x
89Hen
April 29th, 2009, 09:10 AM
You bout a dumb annoying mofo.
BTW, comments like this never cease to be funny to me. xlolx
jstate83
April 29th, 2009, 09:20 AM
I guess the part where you've posted over half a dozen times in a NASCAR thread each time expressing an opinion that nobody here or in the NASCAR world agrees with. Once again you've demonstrated why I called you that. I'm not sure I ever recall anyone else at AGS to tell somebody else to stop posting (other than a mod). xnonono2x
BTW, comments like this never cease to be funny to me. xlolx
You just a dumb annoying child.
Too stupid to let shat go.
I just don't want you posting to me fool.
Don't know you, don't want to know you, don't want to be having a convo with you.
But an annoying child do shat just to be annoying.
Can't stop a retarded mofo if they to retarded to understand so I guess the handicap, YOU, will have to be cut some slack. xnonono2x
89Hen
April 29th, 2009, 09:28 AM
Can't stop a retarded mofo if they to retarded to understand so I guess the handicap, YOU, will have to be cut some slack. xnonono2x
Once again, comments like this never cease to be funny to me. xlolx
Keep replying, it's really making for some good laughs.
jstate83
April 29th, 2009, 09:51 AM
Once again, comments like this never cease to be funny to me. xlolx
Keep replying, it's really making for some good laughs.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It takes a special ed mentality to be this dumb and annoying.xnonono2x
thefortyniner
April 29th, 2009, 10:44 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It takes a special ed mentality to be this dumb and annoying.xnonono2x
http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/fstdt-pot-kettle2.jpg
89Hen
April 29th, 2009, 10:59 AM
http://www.bay-of-fundie.com/img/2007/fstdt-pot-kettle2.jpg
Yeah! Wait, that makes me the kettle. xoopsx :p
BTW, the thought of jstate calling me black is funny in and of itself too. xlolx
JayJ79
April 29th, 2009, 11:05 AM
The possibility still exists, if the fence remains the same at Talladega, that a car already airborne could be tipped up enough by another car to clear the catch fence. To think this unthinkable scenario, with a car probably still doing 150+ mph by the time it reached the bleachers, it would probably tumble over hundreds of spectators before coming to rest. It would make the 1955 LeMans tragedy (where ~80 died) look small in comparison.
For this reason, I have never chosen to sit near the fence at any race, from NASCAR on down to the local dirt tracks.
NASCAR must go higher with the fence at all tracks, go with a smaller displacement engine without a restrictor plate at Daytona and Talladega, and make a no-sit zone within about 25 feet of the fence (or if unwilling to do that, erect a secondary fence or screen to contain debris, sort of like the end netting in the NHL).
I would hope that all nascar (and other "motorsports") tickets include a waiver and/or notice that the spectator attends at their own risk, and that there is always the possibility of objects flying into the stands.
Similar to the warning on the back of baseball tickets.
Though I don't know if such waivers carry much weight in preventing lawsuits.
93henfan
April 29th, 2009, 11:29 AM
I would hope that all nascar (and other "motorsports") tickets include a waiver and/or notice that the spectator attends at their own risk, and that there is always the possibility of objects flying into the stands.
Similar to the warning on the back of baseball tickets.
Though I don't know if such waivers carry much weight in preventing lawsuits.
I've seen that on every baseball ticket I've ever bought, but never recall seeing it on my NASCAR tickets (Dover) and I've been going twice a year for the past 30 or so years, with the exception of my military time.
I'd be willing to bet it will be on every ticket by 2010 though.
thefortyniner
April 29th, 2009, 11:48 AM
I would hope that all nascar (and other "motorsports") tickets include a waiver and/or notice that the spectator attends at their own risk, and that there is always the possibility of objects flying into the stands.
Similar to the warning on the back of baseball tickets.
Though I don't know if such waivers carry much weight in preventing lawsuits.
Every ticket to LMS I've bought had that waiver on it, including the ones for the 1999 IRL race in which three spectators were killed.
BlueHenRN
April 29th, 2009, 12:26 PM
You just a dumb annoying child.
Too stupid to let shat go.
I just don't want you posting to me fool.
Don't know you, don't want to know you, don't want to be having a convo with you.
But an annoying child do shat just to be annoying.
Can't stop a retarded mofo if they to retarded to understand so I guess the handicap, YOU, will have to be cut some slack. xnonono2x
You might want to think about that statement - I don't see you letting anything go.
I've never seen someone argue so much about something - and then claim that they don't care about it. Sheesh.
jstate83
April 29th, 2009, 12:34 PM
You might want to think about that statement - I don't see you letting anything go.
I've never seen someone argue so much about something - and then claim that they don't care about it. Sheesh.
And yet the parade of annoying clown post from chicken land continue.xlolx
I guess it's just in the water to be annoying up there.
Think about that statement.
It would have never been made if your arse had not clicked the quote on me.
My argument is for the dumbarses that keep posting to me about this like YOU. xlolx
93henfan
April 29th, 2009, 12:55 PM
http://161.58.20.24/signs/sign-generator/simple.asp?text=UNLESS+YOUR+NAME+IS+CARL+EDWARDS%2 C+DO+NOT+BLOCK+TRAFFIC%21&align=center&align2=Middle&fontsize=30&font=SignBold&color=black&transparency=255&color2=&watermark=&move=0&move2=&parody=&rotate=-1&allow=3607&left=&right=&up=&down=&pic=notice-this&x=26&y=146&w=280&h=306
93henfan
April 29th, 2009, 12:58 PM
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