That Idiot Bill Simmons is at it again

[Franks Tanks]

He says this about his alma mater (Holy Cross)

"My informal poll of six buddies from college: Six say "Hell yes!" and zero say "no." We don't care about the difference between Holy Cross being ranked in the Top 20, Top 25, Top 40 or Top 50. It's a good school. Ultimately, a ranking doesn't matter. But you know what matters? The graduates who want to maintain a connection with their school as they get older. That's why sports matter. They keep you caring and feeling like you're still part of something. If I felt a connection beyond "I went there a long time ago," I would send them money every year. Instead, I'm agitated and perplexed about the school's current game plan with athletics, and even a little angry about its willingness to turn its back on a century of sports history, which makes me NOT want to give money. And I know there are many more out there like me. So, if that's true, and the school is losing out on our money, isn't that a bad business decision? You can't tell me that a school charging $50,000 a year for tuition isn't a business. Hell, I'd even give money if we embraced academics even more and moved to the NESCAC. But staying in Sports No-Man's-Land? No way."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090401

So either sell your soul for moderately more athletic success, or move to D-III. xrolleyesx

[DFW HOYA]

Many Holy Cross alumni have never quite forgiven the school for passing on the Big East and ignoring its national aspirations for the PL. Up until the mid-1970's, a case could be made that Holy Cross, not BC, was the stronger athletic program in New England.

Because of its actions, the PL is seen as a step down in Division I. Remember how Richmond fans responded to discussions from its school president to join?

[Husky Alum]

Saying Bill Simmons is an idiot is redundant.

[Wildcat80]

Wasn't Holy Cross a consistent contender with undefeated seasons a few years back? They are still good--just not that good. I understand and empathize with his points. IMO the vast majority of alumni are emotionally involved with sports--football, basketball, ice hockey.

[Franks Tanks]

Wasn't Holy Cross a consistent contender with undefeated seasons a few years back? They are still good--just not that good. I understand and empathize with his points. IMO the vast majority of alumni are emotionally involved with sports--football, basketball, ice hockey.

I agree it is difficult for the older alums, but Simmons attended Holy Cross in the late 80's- they werent "Big Time" then either.

Also his just move to D-III arguement doesnt make sense to me. You can be an academically oriented institution and play D-I.

[Husky Alum]

Simmons is just pissed that he couldn't get in to BC and spends his time railing against Holy Cross.

Instead of being part of the solution, he's part of the problem. He could be an asset to Holy Cross, instead he's got a bully pulpit.

He was a jackass when he lived and worked in Boston, and now that he's on a national scale, nothing's changed - and his writing hasn't either.

10-12 years ago, he wrote the same stuff on his Boston Sports Guy website/blog.

[Fordham]

I agree it is difficult for the older alums, but Simmons attended Holy Cross in the late 80's- they werent "Big Time" then either.

Also his just move to D-III arguement doesnt make sense to me. You can be an academically oriented institution and play D-I.Devil's advocate here since a few avid Fordham posters have said similar things about our program as well. The idea is that the school has not done what it needs to do to compete in DI (mostly talking hoops here for both schools) and should either step up and try to compete or else finally admit that it has no interest in being good in athletics and drop down. Thus, I don't think he's saying that academics and athletics don't mix as much as he's saying 'crap or get off the pot' since this 1/2 hearted effort is so tough to watch.

[Husky Alum]

Devil's advocate here since a few avid Fordham posters have said similar things about our program as well. The idea is that the school has not done what it needs to do to compete in DI (mostly talking hoops here for both schools) and should either step up and try to compete or else finally admit that it has no interest in being good in athletics and drop down. Thus, I don't think he's saying that academics and athletics don't mix as much as he's saying 'crap or get off the pot' since this 1/2 hearted effort is so tough to watch.

What more would Simmons want for Holy Cross hoops?

They win, they are in the running for the NCAA Tournament every year, they have a good coach and a decent facility.

If he's advocating a move - where would Holy Cross move?

They were in the MAAC and opted out, and I'm not sure that's as big a step up as many would think.

There's no room in the A-10, the NEC is a step down, and the AE is lateral for them.

I see his point, but where does he want HC to play?

I've sent him e-mail upon e-mail asking him "where do you want HC to play", and his response to me is "we screwed up the one place that made sense - The Big East."

So, he can be narrow with his views, or he can offer solutions. I've never seen him offer a valid solution other than "play in the NESCAC."

[Scumdog0331]

So, he can be narrow with his views, or he can offer solutions. I've never seen him offer a valid solution other than "play in the NESCAC."

"Play in the NESCAC" is a valid solution, probably not the best idea, but a valid solution.

I also don't think the NESCAC would let them in.

"Academic" schools, on par with or even better than Holy Cross, that make the type of effort in athletics Simmons advocates: Notre Dame, Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, Rice, Army, Navy, Northwestern.

"Academic" schools, on par with or even better than Holy Cross, that make the type of effort in athletics Simmons suggests if they are not going to "sell out" for DI: NYU, Emory, (actually all of the UAA), RPI, Grinnell, Colorado College, MIT.

[Scumdog0331]

By the way, I advocate that the Ivy start to offer scholarships, move up to FBS, and accept Army and Navy into the conference

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I like Bill Simmons as a writer. His blog on ESPN is a constant inspiration for guys who blog about sports. His book on the Red Sox is a must-read for Sox fans - not because I agree with everything he says, but his raw style does typify Red Sox fans, and if you've ever been/lived there, he does talk for that population (and sometimes, me too) rather well.

But Simmons' black-and-white view of the Patriot League frustrates me to no end. He sees college sports, especially college basketball, as a revenue-generating machine - kind of like the NBA. I think if you'd ask him, he'd think HC should be competing in the Big East, recruiting kids who are there to play basketball, and then leave for the NBA after their sophomore year. In his world, in my view there are only extremes - either go non-scholarship and go 100% academics, or go 100% and get the O.J. Mayo's of the world. To him, there is no middle ground.

I don't share that view at all. Academics and athletics need to be linked, and the AI is a good way to do that IMO. PL schools shouldn't just go after anyone, they should go after students that can hack the classes. And they should have scholarships in order to get those students to come to PL schools.

[Fordham]

What more would Simmons want for Holy Cross hoops?

They win, they are in the running for the NCAA Tournament every year, they have a good coach and a decent facility.

If he's advocating a move - where would Holy Cross move?

They were in the MAAC and opted out, and I'm not sure that's as big a step up as many would think.

There's no room in the A-10, the NEC is a step down, and the AE is lateral for them.

I see his point, but where does he want HC to play?

I've sent him e-mail upon e-mail asking him "where do you want HC to play", and his response to me is "we screwed up the one place that made sense - The Big East."

So, he can be narrow with his views, or he can offer solutions. I've never seen him offer a valid solution other than "play in the NESCAC."
I can't speak for Simmons and what he wants but I understand the Fordham version of the argument. It's just frustration at a poorly managed athletic department that does a horrendous job of supporting our marquee sport so that it's moreso a cause of embarrassment than pride. Mimicking NYU and de-emphasizing athletics will take the program out of the (negative) limelight. Not saying I agree with this but that's a way that a frustrated fan can argue for moving DIII without necessarily saying that athletics and academics don't mix.

Now it appears that Simmons is actually saying that they can't mix (or has given that impression) - if that's the case, then I agree that he's wrong.

[danefan]

By the way, I advocate that the Ivy start to offer scholarships, move up to FBS, and accept Army and Navy into the conference

As far-fetched as that is, given the Ivy admins view on football, the Ivy League is actually the only FCS conference that could actually do such a thing. They are the only ones that have the bankroll, history, alumni and media support to do it.

But it will never happen in our lifetime.

[Appinator]

I like Bill Simmons as a writer. His blog on ESPN is a constant inspiration for guys who blog about sports. His book on the Red Sox is a must-read for Sox fans - not because I agree with everything he says, but his raw style does typify Red Sox fans, and if you've ever been/lived there, he does talk for that population (and sometimes, me too) rather well.

But Simmons' black-and-white view of the Patriot League frustrates me to no end. He sees college sports, especially college basketball, as a revenue-generating machine - kind of like the NBA. I think if you'd ask him, he'd think HC should be competing in the Big East, recruiting kids who are there to play basketball, and then leave for the NBA after their sophomore year. In his world, in my view there are only extremes - either go non-scholarship and go 100% academics, or go 100% and get the O.J. Mayo's of the world. To him, there is no middle ground.

I don't share that view at all. Academics and athletics need to be linked, and the AI is a good way to do that IMO. PL schools shouldn't just go after anyone, they should go after students that can hack the classes. And they should have scholarships in order to get those students to come to PL schools.


I totally agree. I have been a Bill Simmons fan for a number of years now, and he usually has a great "every man" perspective that most of us can relate to.

Where a lot of our AGS philosophies on concentrate on how football can best co-exist with other Division 1 programs at the FCS level, I believe his main gripe about HC is their lack of effort at becoming a big time basketball program in Division 1, even if that means having his team in the PL (Def not a bad thing IMO).

He sees the Gonzagas (and as noted in the NYT, the Binghamptons) of the world and wonders why his school is self handcuffing their athletic programs, when their are a number of high academic institutions of similar size and conference affiliation that do not. Whether or not this academic stringency is actually put into place is most definitely up to the school, but I also do believe that the kids that go play ball there undoubtedly need to be able to swim in it's academic waters (even if those waters contain one or two versions of basket weaving)

While he might have this sentiment for basketball, he has mentioned a couple of times in columns (and podcasts w/ Jacko) how he remembered the success of their football team in what was formally known as I-AA (Jacko is awesome by the way). Obviously, if he was advocating a D-II or III move, this would affect football as well, but I think his statement more reflects his frustration with the basketball program at HC and not his disdain with the PL or small D-I schools.

I think his comments on the subject are more like one of your "every man" friends proclaiming that they would "rather eat poop in a hot dog bun than eat at Burger King". While snarky to say, if you laid a whopper down next to a turd sandwich, they are going to back down and go with the whopper. No one wants to take a bite out of the big turd sandwich that is moving your program down to D-III in reality.

[Scumdog0331]

As far-fetched as that is, given the Ivy admins view on football, the Ivy League is actually the only FCS conference that could actually do such a thing. They are the only ones that have the bankroll, history, alumni and media support to do it.

But it will never happen in our lifetime.


You are correct, sir!!!

A dude can dream, though.

[Franks Tanks]

By the way, I advocate that the Ivy start to offer scholarships, move up to FBS, and accept Army and Navy into the conference

Or Army and Navy can move to FCS and join the Ivies. Navy is humming right now, but that is the exception not the rule.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Or Army and Navy can move to FCS and join the Ivies. Navy is humming right now. but that is the exception not the rule.

xeekx

Come on, man! The Patriot League! The Patriot League! :D

[Go...gate]

By the way, I advocate that the Ivy start to offer scholarships, move up to FBS, and accept Army and Navy into the conference

The Ivy's loss has been the Patriot League's gain.

Army and Navy were with the Ivy in the EIBL, EISL and other conferences, so why not bring them in again?

[Franks Tanks]

xeekx

Come on, man! The Patriot League! The Patriot League! :D

Of cousrse-- I dont think the Ivies will add anyone ever. They have to be the oldest unchanged conference out there.

[UNH SUPERFAN]

"Play in the NESCAC" is a valid solution, probably not the best idea, but a valid solution.

I also don't think the NESCAC would let them in.

"Academic" schools, on par with or even better than Holy Cross, that make the type of effort in athletics Simmons advocates: Notre Dame, Stanford, Duke, Vanderbilt, Rice, Army, Navy, Northwestern.

"Academic" schools, on par with or even better than Holy Cross, that make the type of effort in athletics Simmons suggests if they are not going to "sell out" for DI: NYU, Emory, (actually all of the UAA), RPI, Grinnell, Colorado College, MIT.

Your the first person I've seen who has even hinted at an academic conference, I think its a great idea, as is the idea of the Ivies accepting Army and Navy in.

[Scumdog0331]

I've kicked around the Idea of a national "academic" conference for awhile, with 2 divisions that aren't exactly geographic to keep the three Academies in the same division:

Army
Navy
Air Force
Notre Dame
Northwestern
Stanford


Duke
Vanderbilt
Baylor
Rice
Tulane

A twelfth team is tricky because Cal or GT would work, but they are public school and wouldn't have the same "mission" as the rest of the conference. (although, technically, the Academies are to, but when you need a congressional recommendation to get into school, all "public" advantages are out of the window.) I think any of the Patriot League teams would work, you know, with a new commitment to football at the highest level. I still like the idea of Ivy moving up and taking on Army and Navy more.

Here is another issue, the Ivy League has petitioned several times to allow our teams to be considered "counters" for FBS teams, since our need based aid to players far exceeds the 56/57 scholarship threshold to be "counters."

Can you imagine a rotating schedule where the Ivies would play one guarantee game against one of these teams every year:

Stanford
Northwestern
Rice
Vanderbilt
Duke
Army
Navy
Air Force

I think Harvard, Yale, Princeton could sell out all those Venues. Cornell-Army would be a blast, and Stanford-Harvard could pull national TV.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here is another issue, the Ivy League has petitioned several times to allow our teams to be considered "counters" for FBS teams, since our need based aid to players far exceeds the 56/57 scholarship threshold to be "counters."

Ah, the exquisite hypocrisy of the the Ivy League rears its ugly head again. When it comes to playing in the playoffs, playing eleven games a year, or scheduling teams like UNH or Villanova, folks cry that the IL is "non-scholarship, we're different than the rest of FCS, scholarship teams are too hard to play". Yet when it comes to getting a chance at guarantee games and making $$ for their programs... all of a sudden it's "we need an exemption since our need-based aid far exceeds the scholarship threshold". Really rich. xrolleyesx

Furthermore, when they say the IL has petitioned for this - exactly who does that benefit? The ones that only recently were basically forced into offering more generous aid packages (Dartmouth, Cornell, Columbia)? Or the ones with endowments that exceed the size of Lichenstein's GDP (H-Y-P)?

On a side note, if the IL ever did have their aid counted as "counters", you can bet that the PL would adopt football scholarships the next day. They would never allow Harvard to be a FBS counter but not, say, Lehigh. So it's something worth watching for PL fans.

[Scumdog0331]

The NCAA has pretty much smacked us in the mouth for even suggesting this, so it's not going to happen any time soon. Harvard actually has a contract to play Army soon, but I don't know if that is actually going to happen.

[YaleFootballFan]

Harvard actually has a contract to play Army soon, but I don't know if that is actually going to happen.

That's interesting.

Yale and Army had agreed to play in 2010, 2012 and 2014 but Army backed out of the deal last year. The 2014 game was supposed to be played at Yale Bowl.

[Seawolf97]

By the way, I advocate that the Ivy start to offer scholarships, move up to FBS, and accept Army and Navy into the conference

You do think big -but not a bad idea!xpeacex

[Scumdog0331]

That's interesting.

Yale and Army had agreed to play in 2010, 2012 and 2014 but Army backed out of the deal last year. The 2014 game was supposed to be played at Yale Bowl.

That had everything to do with "counters."

(warning, I have no proof of the following, it is pure speculation on my part)

I think Harvard-Army may have scheduled the game in anticipation of Ivies becoming "counters" via the NCAA waiver, and since that hasn't materialized, I don't see the game actually occurring.

[Franks Tanks]

That had everything to do with "counters."

(warning, I have no proof of the following, it is pure speculation on my part)

I think Harvard-Army may have scheduled the game in anticipation of Ivies becoming "counters" via the NCAA waiver, and since that hasn't materialized, I don't see the game actually occurring.

I love how Army is so concerned about Bowl Counters. They wouldnt even win the Ivy or PL title if they played in either conference.

[Scumdog0331]

Ah, the exquisite hypocrisy of the the Ivy League rears its ugly head again.

I'm not going to disagree with you there.

BTW, Ivy has started a post-season conference tournament in Men's Lacrosse, now every other sport wants a post-season tourney as well. We'll see if this effects football.