Patriot League excitement

[Wildcat80]

Would any decision be as EXCITING for both Patriot League football and northeast football as the PL opting for 63 scholarships and scheduling one FBS program each to help fund the move?

[MplsBison]

The PL presidents would rather stab themselves in the leg.

[DFW HOYA]

Would any decision be as EXCITING for both Patriot League football and northeast football as the PL opting for 63 scholarships and scheduling one FBS program each to help fund the move?

If there's an BCS program out there whose would pay to play Georgetown right now, much less help fund an additional $3 million in scholarship aid every year, let me know.

[MplsBison]

FBS programs will only play FCS schools if they have averaged 57.6 equivalencies over the last 2 seasons.


It's squarely on Georgetown's shoulders to get to that level of support.


Every Big East FBS football team would be beating down Georgetown's door, if that would happen. Syracuse at least, probably Maryland and Virginia too.

[PAT]

If there's an BCS program out there whose would pay to play Georgetown right now, much less help fund an additional $3 million in scholarship aid every year, let me know.
MICHIGAN and we all know why ?

[Seawolf97]

I guess we will know by June. Hopefully this will go through for the PL. With 63 scholarships they could be the next CAA.

[Wildcat80]

If there's an BCS program out there whose would pay to play Georgetown right now, much less help fund an additional $3 million in scholarship aid every year, let me know.

Scholarships are the key. Oklahoma wanted to play UNH this year! Coastal Carolina played pennstate. Those games are possible to play--maybe not to win.xsmhx

[Seawolf97]

Scholarships are the key. Oklahoma wanted to play UNH this year! Coastal Carolina played pennstate. Those games are possible to play--maybe not to win.xsmhx

Thats one of the upsides. Imagine a Colgate vs Army or Bucknell vs Pitt. Both are possible with a full scholarship program. I'm both those games would get major fan interest.

[DFW HOYA]

FBS programs will only play FCS schools if they have averaged 57.6 equivalencies over the last 2 seasons. It's squarely on Georgetown's shoulders to get to that level of support.

Easier said than done.

One one side of the ledger, Georgetown has the largest athletic budget of any I-AA school and the resources of the Big East TV contracts. On the other side are some colder, harder facts: men's basketball doesn't pay all the bills, roughly 27 sports share about $17 million in budget money--much of which is tied up in Big East scholarship minimums, and coaches compete between a rock (academics) and a hard place (some of the poorest facilities in Division I). Ask any PL fan who has visited the "Multi-Sport Facility" and what that's like to play in, much less recruit with.

Next to wins (since 2006, fewer than anyone outside Indiana State), football's next big challenge is revenues. Its still-temporary field (five years of red tape and counting) is the smallest in I-AA. There is no radio or TV contract, and while the donor base is loyal, loyalty has limits. To get up to 63 equivalencies, scholarships, whatever...would take somewhere around $3 million of gifts a year, and not many I-AA schools outside of App or Montana can come close to that.

That's the challenge right now, but to be frank, it would be a lot easier with a winning record, last seen in Washington around 1999.

[ngineer]

Thats one of the upsides. Imagine a Colgate vs Army or Bucknell vs Pitt. Both are possible with a full scholarship program. I'm both those games would get major fan interest.

There could be some very interesting regional rivalries RENEWED. Lehigh had a great rivalry going with Rutgers until the late 1970's when the NJSU decided to go 'big time'--has only taken about 30 years. But over the last ten games between Lehigh and Rutgers we split with them 5 each. Another renewed series would be with Temple, and obviously, Penn State would want to 'try' and get revenge for the great 1889 beat-down.:D

However, I think this all this talk is fueled by peyote....'pipe dreams'.xnodx

[Go...gate]

There could be some very interesting regional rivalries RENEWED. Lehigh had a great rivalry going with Rutgers until the late 1970's when the NJSU decided to go 'big time'--has only taken about 30 years. But over the last ten games between Lehigh and Rutgers we split with them 5 each. Another renewed series would be with Temple, and obviously, Penn State would want to 'try' and get revenge for the great 1889 beat-down.:D

However, I think this all this talk is fueled by peyote....'pipe dreams'.xnodx

If it were to happen, you will see Colgate and Syracuse play again. Also a good bet that Army, Rutgers, Penn State and Buffalo will find their way onto Colgate schedules from time to time, as these are all old rivalries and Colgate will bring a couple thousand fans to these games.

Rutgers would love to play Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate again - like it or not, the old grads (and there are a whole bunch in Central NJ) enjoy that relationship with schools they have always considered academic peers and traditional rivals. Hell, Rutgers wanted to keep playing Princeton, Cornell and Columbia long after Columbia ended their series after 1978, Princeton ended their series after 1980 and Cornell terminated theirs after 1981.

An easy win never hurts, either.

[MplsBison]

Easier said than done.

One one side of the ledger, Georgetown has the largest athletic budget of any I-AA school and the resources of the Big East TV contracts. On the other side are some colder, harder facts: men's basketball doesn't pay all the bills, roughly 27 sports share about $17 million in budget money--much of which is tied up in Big East scholarship minimums, and coaches compete between a rock (academics) and a hard place (some of the poorest facilities in Division I). Ask any PL fan who has visited the "Multi-Sport Facility" and what that's like to play in, much less recruit with.

Next to wins (since 2006, fewer than anyone outside Indiana State), football's next big challenge is revenues. Its still-temporary field (five years of red tape and counting) is the smallest in I-AA. There is no radio or TV contract, and while the donor base is loyal, loyalty has limits. To get up to 63 equivalencies, scholarships, whatever...would take somewhere around $3 million of gifts a year, and not many I-AA schools outside of App or Montana can come close to that.

That's the challenge right now, but to be frank, it would be a lot easier with a winning record, last seen in Washington around 1999.

Men's crew and men's and women's sailing you guys could drop as they are not sponsored by the Big East. Those are probably expensive sports.

But otherwise, you pretty much then sponsor every Big East sport. That ain't cheap, that's for sure.


I think Texas has like 17 sports? Maybe you should look at cutting some olympic sports too?

[ngineer]

Men's crew and men's and women's sailing you guys could drop as they are not sponsored by the Big East. Those are probably expensive sports.

But otherwise, you pretty much then sponsor every Big East sport. That ain't cheap, that's for sure.


I think Texas has like 17 sports? Maybe you should look at cutting some olympic sports too?

Amazing isn't it? A school the size of Texas with the tons of $ devoted to football and they only have 16 sports besides football.xrotatehx A lot of the olympic sports have minuscue budgets compared to football.

[apaladin]

FBS programs will only play FCS schools if they have averaged 57.6 equivalencies over the last 2 seasons.


It's squarely on Georgetown's shoulders to get to that level of support.


Every Big East FBS football team would be beating down Georgetown's door, if that would happen. Syracuse at least, probably Maryland and Virginia too.

Don't think this is necessarily true as I know Clempson has PC next year and I think they are in the 40-45 scholarship range.

[MplsBison]

Amazing isn't it? A school the size of Texas with the tons of $ devoted to football and they only have 16 sports besides football.xrotatehx A lot of the olympic sports have minuscue budgets compared to football.

I think it's fair given the massive revenue that Texas football generates.


I would imagine that the Texas olympic sports (esp. baseball) have facilities and budgets as good as any in the nation.


The point was to focus on a few number of sports and do them all as well as they could, rather than try to have 40 sports.

[MplsBison]

Don't think this is necessarily true as I know Clempson has PC next year and I think they are in the 40-45 scholarship range.

Yeah I know FAU played Southern Utah and it wasn't a counter.


I guess now and then a FBS school doesn't care if the win doesn't count for bowl eligibility. But ususally that's not the case.

[Go...gate]

Don't think this is necessarily true as I know Clempson has PC next year and I think they are in the 40-45 scholarship range.

Right. Also, Colgate-Air Force in 2013. Counters were apparantly not an issue.

[LBPop]

Easier said than done.

One one side of the ledger, Georgetown has the largest athletic budget of any I-AA school and the resources of the Big East TV contracts. On the other side are some colder, harder facts: men's basketball doesn't pay all the bills, roughly 27 sports share about $17 million in budget money--much of which is tied up in Big East scholarship minimums, and coaches compete between a rock (academics) and a hard place (some of the poorest facilities in Division I). Ask any PL fan who has visited the "Multi-Sport Facility" and what that's like to play in, much less recruit with.

Next to wins (since 2006, fewer than anyone outside Indiana State), football's next big challenge is revenues. Its still-temporary field (five years of red tape and counting) is the smallest in I-AA. There is no radio or TV contract, and while the donor base is loyal, loyalty has limits. To get up to 63 equivalencies, scholarships, whatever...would take somewhere around $3 million of gifts a year, and not many I-AA schools outside of App or Montana can come close to that.

That's the challenge right now, but to be frank, it would be a lot easier with a winning record, last seen in Washington around 1999.

Just another excellent description of why Georgetown football has such a bright immediate future. xrolleyesx But the true fans remain loyal...all five of us. ;)

[MplsBison]

Ok then...how about Stanford? They have 30+ varsity, NCAA sponsored sports AND they have BCS football.


How were they able to pull that off yet Georgetown is so bad?

[DFW HOYA]

Ok then...how about Stanford? They have 30+ varsity, NCAA sponsored sports AND they have BCS football. How were they able to pull that off yet Georgetown is so bad?

I'm surprised you don't realize that Stanford, for 14 straight years the top rated Division I team in the NACDA Cup all-sports polls, has the benefit of a $400 million endowment (and that's down from $500 million pre-crash) that generates at least $20 million every year for Stanford athletics before the first ticket is sold, before the first TV dollar is collected, and before the first dollar is fundraised. It allows Stanford to offer full scholarships for almost every roster spot in every sport they compete in. For pure eduation, a full ride to Stanford is as good as it gets anywhere.

I'm also surprised you suggest Georgetown is "bad". Georgetown consitently rates among the top five I-AA schools in the nation in post-season finishes across all sports, with nationally competitive programs in cross country, indoor and outdoor track, women's soccer, men's and women's lacrosse, rowing and sailing. Football has been held back by the long-neglected scholarship/aid situation, somthing which is admittedly less of an issue in soccer or sailing. Add the ever increasing academic requirements for a school whose SAT's are circling 1470 on the 1600 point scale, and the Hoyas have been rolling a big rock up the hill in recent years.

But it's no boast, and I'll say it again: if Georgetown was playing at 60 full rides, it would be grinding many of its opponents into the dust. And they know it.

[ngineer]

I think it's fair given the massive revenue that Texas football generates.


I would imagine that the Texas olympic sports (esp. baseball) have facilities and budgets as good as any in the nation.


The point was to focus on a few number of sports and do them all as well as they could, rather than try to have 40 sports.


True, but a lot of olympic sports give greater opportunities to more students as many of these sports don't have such demands for size like football and basketball . Differing philosophies, I guess.

[ngineer]

I'm surprised you don't realize that Stanford, for 14 straight years the top rated Division I team in the NACDA Cup all-sports polls, has the benefit of a $400 million endowment (and that's down from $500 million pre-crash) that generates at least $20 million every year for Stanford athletics before the first ticket is sold, before the first TV dollar is collected, and before the first dollar is fundraised. It allows Stanford to offer full scholarships for almost every roster spot in every sport they compete in. For pure eduation, a full ride to Stanford is as good as it gets anywhere.

I'm also surprised you suggest Georgetown is "bad". Georgetown consitently rates among the top five I-AA schools in the nation in post-season finishes across all sports, with nationally competitive programs in cross country, indoor and outdoor track, women's soccer, men's and women's lacrosse, rowing and sailing. Football has been held back by the long-neglected scholarship/aid situation, somthing which is admittedly less of an issue in soccer or sailing. Add the ever increasing academic requirements for a school whose SAT's are circling 1470 on the 1600 point scale, and the Hoyas have been rolling a big rock up the hill in recent years.

But it's no boast, and I'll say it again: if Georgetown was playing at 60 full rides, it would be grinding many of its opponents into the dust. And they know it.

Very true. Pete Lembo observed almost ten years ago that Georgetown was the 'sleeping giant' in the PL and I-AA in that if they ever decided to focus somewhat on football they could be dominant with their national footprint available for recruiting. More Ambien, please!!;):D

[Fordham]

[/U][/I][/B]

Very true. Pete Lembo observed almost ten years ago that Georgetown was the 'sleeping giant' in the PL and I-AA in that if they ever decided to focus somewhat on football they could be dominant with their national footprint available for recruiting. More Ambien, please!!;):D
I'll 2nd that.

[Seawolf97]

[/U][/I][/B]

Very true. Pete Lembo observed almost ten years ago that Georgetown was the 'sleeping giant' in the PL and I-AA in that if they ever decided to focus somewhat on football they could be dominant with their national footprint available for recruiting. More Ambien, please!!;):D

Couldn't afree more. Thye could be a powerhouse!

[MplsBison]

I'm surprised you don't realize that Stanford, for 14 straight years the top rated Division I team in the NACDA Cup all-sports polls, has the benefit of a $400 million endowment (and that's down from $500 million pre-crash) that generates at least $20 million every year for Stanford athletics before the first ticket is sold, before the first TV dollar is collected, and before the first dollar is fundraised. It allows Stanford to offer full scholarships for almost every roster spot in every sport they compete in. For pure eduation, a full ride to Stanford is as good as it gets anywhere.

I'm also surprised you suggest Georgetown is "bad". Georgetown consitently rates among the top five I-AA schools in the nation in post-season finishes across all sports, with nationally competitive programs in cross country, indoor and outdoor track, women's soccer, men's and women's lacrosse, rowing and sailing. Football has been held back by the long-neglected scholarship/aid situation, somthing which is admittedly less of an issue in soccer or sailing. Add the ever increasing academic requirements for a school whose SAT's are circling 1470 on the 1600 point scale, and the Hoyas have been rolling a big rock up the hill in recent years.

But it's no boast, and I'll say it again: if Georgetown was playing at 60 full rides, it would be grinding many of its opponents into the dust. And they know it.

I meant bad at football.


Facilities and coaching plays a big role as well. Just having 60 scholarships wouldn't guarantee a winning season at GU.

[MplsBison]

True, but a lot of olympic sports give greater opportunities to more students as many of these sports don't have such demands for size like football and basketball . Differing philosophies, I guess.

Football at Texas is basically NFL.


Different philosophy...different scope.

[jimbo65]

[/U][/I][/B]

Very true. Pete Lembo observed almost ten years ago that Georgetown was the 'sleeping giant' in the PL and I-AA in that if they ever decided to focus somewhat on football they could be dominant with their national footprint available for recruiting. More Ambien, please!!;):D
Perhaps so, but the will on the part of those who run Gtown must be there. So far, it hasn't been evidenced and Gtown, IMO, treats fball only a bit worse than Fordham treats basketball. For years, not anymore though, writers have referred to the Rams bball program as a "sleeping giant". Well its remains asleep until a prince, University Prez. really interested in sports, wakes the giant. What we have now is mostly BS and if it were not for alums who support fball, that sport would be in the same toilet with bball.

[CFBfan]

it is my understanding that GTown brought in a new AD from Notre Dame a couple of years ago who was supposed to amoung other things, revitalize the football program. Is that true? If so, what if anything has he done to date?

[carney2]

Perhaps so, but the will on the part of those who run Gtown must be there. So far, it hasn't been evidenced and Gtown, IMO, treats fball only a bit worse than Fordham treats basketball. For years, not anymore though, writers have referred to the Rams bball program as a "sleeping giant". Well its remains asleep until a prince, University Prez. really interested in sports, wakes the giant. What we have now is mostly BS and if it were not for alums who support fball, that sport would be in the same toilet with bball.

Exactly. How will scholarships and sailing off on your own with no firm plan as to where this is going benefit the university, the athletic department, the alumni, anyone? Is there a ground swell of support for football that doesn't exist for basketball, supposedly the be-all and end-all athletic activity for all Roman Catholic institutions in the northeast? I've been beat down for stating this previously, but there is nothing in any of this that has changed my mind: Fordham appears to be behaving like a 5-year old throwing a temper tantrum. Name the last time anything good came of that.

[MplsBison]

Going to scholarships will allow Fordham to be competitive nationally in FCS.

[Fordham]

March 31, 2009:


Exactly. How will scholarships and sailing off on your own with no firm plan as to where this is going benefit the university, the athletic department, the alumni, anyone? Is there a ground swell of support for football that doesn't exist for basketball, supposedly the be-all and end-all athletic activity for all Roman Catholic institutions in the northeast? I've been beat down for stating this previously, but there is nothing in any of this that has changed my mind: Fordham appears to be behaving like a 5-year old throwing a temper tantrum. Name the last time anything good came of that.
January 23, 2009:

If what you say is true (like others here, I'm not sure that it is), the powers that be in Ramland need to come out of the closet and declare that football scholarships are a must for continued Patriot League membership. (Someone needs to step to the plate and PUBLICLY beat Femovich and company about the head and shoulders with this issue or nothing will ever get done. Someone, please, be the Holy Cross of football on scholarships.)
xeekx

[carney2]

March 31, 2009:


January 23, 2009:

xeekx

1. I am overjoyed that someone has pushed Femovich and the sanctimonious smarter than thou Patriot League crowd to the wall on the football scholarship issue.

2. I see Fordham as completely trusting to dumb luck for a positive outcome if they ultimately take their ball and leave.

I do not see these viewpoints as being in any way contradictory.

[MplsBison]

What are the odds that the Patriot League gives in and allows CAA-style scholarships?

[turbodean]

Holy Cross George-town! Chances are long out the Col-gate that Lehigh and Lafayette Bucknell under to Fordham.

[carney2]

What are the odds that the Patriot League gives in and allows CAA-style scholarships?

Near zero.

Now, if you had phrased your question along the lines "What are the odds that the Patriot League gives in and allows scholarships?," I'd have to say that you've moved closer to the 50/50 range.

Before we get into another round of "What's the difference? A scholarship is a scholarship. Right?" I'll just say that I'm betting that a Patriot League solution comes with strings attached, such as a maximum number that is lower than the 63 allowed by the CAA, and/or some sort of continuance of the AI. Only Nostradamus could conceive of any other cockamamie "solutions" that would appeal to this bunch. They will, of course, be looking over their shoulders for nods of approval from their Ivy League puppet masters.

[MplsBison]

Why would they care?

Why wouldn't they want to give their team the best possible chance to be competitive nationally?


What is it about football that turns PL university presidents into creeps?

[LBPop]

it is my understanding that GTown brought in a new AD from Notre Dame a couple of years ago who was supposed to amoung other things, revitalize the football program. Is that true? If so, what if anything has he done to date?

Bernard Muir has added some class to the athletic department, but he faces the same obstacles that each of his predecessors has faced. The available funds are very limited and the administration support of football is, in my opinion, very questionable. But what keeps the Georgetown football fans involved is that potential that has already been mentioned in this thread. If Georgetown had facilities remotely comparable to its competitors and if Georgetown had financial aid funds similar to its competitors, the program would flourish. But that huge two-letter word ("if") is always there. :(

[Go...gate]

Near zero.

Now, if you had phrased your question along the lines "What are the odds that the Patriot League gives in and allows scholarships?," I'd have to say that you've moved closer to the 50/50 range.

Before we get into another round of "What's the difference? A scholarship is a scholarship. Right?" I'll just say that I'm betting that a Patriot League solution comes with strings attached, such as a maximum number that is lower than the 63 allowed by the CAA, and/or some sort of continuance of the AI. Only Nostradamus could conceive of any other cockamamie "solutions" that would appeal to this bunch. They will, of course, be looking over their shoulders for nods of approval from their Ivy League puppet masters.

Agreed. Best-case I see 57 scholarships (just enough to make PL schools "counters" with an AI.

Worst-case, 40 scholarships to bring us even with the NEC.

[Fordham]

1. I am overjoyed that someone has pushed Femovich and the sanctimonious smarter than thou Patriot League crowd to the wall on the football scholarship issue.

2. I see Fordham as completely trusting to dumb luck for a positive outcome if they ultimately take their ball and leave.

I do not see these viewpoints as being in any way contradictory.
Oh, c'mon, carney - those two posts are beautfully juxtaposed. If not outright contradictory it at least has to provide a little humor to see you tell us in January that it's incumbent upon us to demand scholarships for the PL and then when we go out and do exactly that, you ridicule us for not having a plan and acting like a spoiled child.

Instead of creating some wild fantasy in your head where our AD and Masella went to PL headquarters and held their breath to try to get scholarships and then stomped out like schoolkids when they didn't get them, why can't you realize that it's as simple as the fact that our worst case scenario (getting booted from the PL) is better than remaining in a PL that has a league-wide AI with no scholarships. It's really as simple as that and the message was delivered very respectfully (despite the fact that no one apparently was pleased that this behind-the-scenes stuff was thenannounced so loudly at our Meet the Recruits night).

My guess is that the PL made one big miscalculation when they implemented the AI and then balked on scholarships. They dramatically underestimated the fear that many Gridiron Club members have that the program is always a few mediocre (or worse) seasons away from getting cut. $4MM is alot of cheese and it won't take long in this economy for our President to look down and ask whether or not it could be better spent elsewhere. This is also likely due to the fact that our most active members are guys who started the program from scratch. Nonetheless ... and right or wrong ... the AI implementation and no scholarships cut way to close to the bone for supporters of the program.

Again, all of this aside, the point I'll continue to make is that not only was the decision presented respectfully but it was very well thought out. There certainly is risk ... but it's a calculated one and one that I'm also sure involved much more behind the scenes conversations/feedback from AD's within and without of the league ... before it was made. What it all comes down to is that remaining in a PL w/league-wide AI & no scholarships is a bigger risk than going independent or trying to hook up with a new conference until things shake out.

The fact that we already have UCONN and Army on future schedules certainly helps pacify alums if we need to suck it up for a few years.

PS - to answer an earlier question from you - yes, the football alums carry alot more weight than any others. It was reported on our board that football alums gave a record $1.7MM last year while the Rebounders Club raised $250K. That tends to get people high up in the university to listen.

[Fordham]

Agreed. Best-case I see 57 scholarships (just enough to make PL schools "counters" with an AI.

Worst-case, 40 scholarships to bring us even with the NEC.

I agree with that. The option is to just let each institution make their own decision. That may exacerbate inter-league competitiveness but it at least provides a way around the increased cost issue.

[DFW HOYA]

I agree with that. The option is to just let each institution make their own decision. That may exacerbate inter-league competitiveness but it at least provides a way around the increased cost issue.

Of course, it doesn't help Georgetown or Bucknell, that's for sure.Then again, none of these options really helps them.

And I think you mean intra-league competitiveness.

[carney2]

Oh, c'mon, carney - those two posts are beautfully juxtaposed.

Dictionary! Where's my dictionary?

[ngineer]

I agree with that. The option is to just let each institution make their own decision. That may exacerbate inter-league competitiveness but it at least provides a way around the increased cost issue.

That's the way basketball was segued into being, with Lafayette being the last institution to finally go schollie and see what the effect has been on the 'pards. However, I see that as a possible compromise position.

[ngineer]

Why would they care?

Why wouldn't they want to give their team the best possible chance to be competitive nationally?


What is it about football that turns PL university presidents into creeps?

Because football has historically been the sport that is the 'gorilla' causing the most problems between academics and athletics. The programs are so big (roughly 100 students) and their budgets so large in comparison to other sports and academic departments, that the sport has always been viewed with suspicion in becoming too powerful a part of an academic institution..i.e. the proverbial 'tail wagging the dog' that his seen at many BCS schools. There is the concern of 'letting the camel put its nose under the tent' and then gradually entering and taking over the big picture. It is reason the Ivy League exists today from its inception in the early 1950's after some brutal scandals rocked some of our greatest academic institutions. "If you don't respect history, you are doomed to repeat it", or so the saying goes. That is why the PL presidents are paranoid about football.

[Franks Tanks]

That's the way basketball was segued into being, with Lafayette being the last institution to finally go schollie and see what the effect has been on the 'pards. However, I see that as a possible compromise position.

Our B-ball teams somehow continue to suck even with scholly's, but other sports (soccer) have done well.

I think Weiss understands the benefit of scholly's, but not sure if he wishes to implement them.

[ngineer]

Our B-ball teams somehow continue to suck even with scholly's, but other sports (soccer) have done well.

I think Weiss understands the benefit of scholly's, but not sure if he wishes to implement them.


I think you're only in your second year of schollies, no? So it may take another year or two before Lafayette may be in position to challenge as they did in the past. I still think you have one of the best coaches around.

[MplsBison]

Because football has historically been the sport that is the 'gorilla' causing the most problems between academics and athletics. The programs are so big (roughly 100 students) and their budgets so large in comparison to other sports and academic departments, that the sport has always been viewed with suspicion in becoming too powerful a part of an academic institution..i.e. the proverbial 'tail wagging the dog' that his seen at many BCS schools. There is the concern of 'letting the camel put its nose under the tent' and then gradually entering and taking over the big picture. It is reason the Ivy League exists today from its inception in the early 1950's after some brutal scandals rocked some of our greatest academic institutions. "If you don't respect history, you are doomed to repeat it", or so the saying goes. That is why the PL presidents are paranoid about football.

How does offereing 63 scholarships to players based on athletic merit, out of thousands of students, cause the tail to wag the dog?

[LUHawker]

It's really as simple as that and the message was delivered very respectfully (despite the fact that no one apparently was pleased that this behind-the-scenes stuff was thenannounced so loudly at our Meet the Recruits night).



Fordham - Based upon your comment that no one was pleased about the announcement, it seems you have heard some further info. Were those other schools or the League that was not pleased, or was that related to FU?

[carney2]

How does offering 63 scholarships to players based on athletic merit, out of thousands of students, cause the tail to wag the dog?

These are relatively small schools:

Bucknell, 3,600, 1,700 males 5.0%
Colgate, 2800, 1,400 males 6.1%
Fordham, 8,400 (undergrads), 3,300 males 2.6%
Georgetown, 6,700 (undergrads), 3,200 males 2.7%
Holy Cross, 2,700, 1,200 males 7.1%
Lafayette, 2,400, 1,300 males 6.5%
Lehigh, 4,600, 2,650 males 3.2%

The red number shows the percentage of undergraduate males represented by an 85 man football squad. My numbers may be off a little in individual cases, but overall you can see that the football team is a very large segment of the student population and you can understand how some might view this as the tail wagging the dog.

[carney2]

I think you're only in your second year of schollies, no? So it may take another year or two before Lafayette may be in position to challenge as they did in the past. I still think you have one of the best coaches around.

This year's juniors were in the first scholarship class so the Pards are now 3 years into the basketball scholarship age. Giving Coach O'Hanlon a pass however, he got the go ahead very late in the recruiting cycle for that first class. So, maybe two is more realistic.

A couple years ago I would have agreed with you that men's basketball coach Fran O'Hanlon is "one of the best coaches around." I'm not so sure anymore. On game day he's fine, but consider:

A few years ago he interviewed for the opening at LaSalle and then held a gun to the AD's head asking for a contract extension. He is now set virtually until retirement and gives every indication that he plans to coast right up to that gold watch.

He is proving to be a bit of a whiner. First it was "I don't have scholarships," and lately it's "our facilities are not good enough." All of it is true enough, but none of it is productive.

His recruiting stinks. He appears to have adopted the attitude that "I'll take anyone over 6'7", even a one-legged guy. Ya never know." Next year he will have the tallest bench in the east. You don't want a seat in the first couple rows behind those guys.

[MplsBison]

These are relatively small schools:

Bucknell, 3,600, 1,700 males 5.0%
Colgate, 2800, 1,400 males 6.1%
Fordham, 8,400 (undergrads), 3,300 males 2.6%
Georgetown, 6,700 (undergrads), 3,200 males 2.7%
Holy Cross, 2,700, 1,200 males 7.1%
Lafayette, 2,400, 1,300 males 6.5%
Lehigh, 4,600, 2,650 males 3.2%

The red number shows the percentage of undergraduate males represented by an 85 man football squad. My numbers may be off a little in individual cases, but overall you can see that the football team is a very large segment of the student population and you can understand how some might view this as the tail wagging the dog.

Not at all, esp. when you consider the only reasonable case of considering all enrolled students, not just the male undergrads.

[Fordham]

Dictionary! Where's my dictionary?
I don't know what it means either - someone please ask DFW. xnodx


These are relatively small schools:

Bucknell, 3,600, 1,700 males 5.0%
Colgate, 2800, 1,400 males 6.1%
Fordham, 8,400 (undergrads), 3,300 males 2.6%
Georgetown, 6,700 (undergrads), 3,200 males 2.7%
Holy Cross, 2,700, 1,200 males 7.1%
Lafayette, 2,400, 1,300 males 6.5%
Lehigh, 4,600, 2,650 males 3.2%

The red number shows the percentage of undergraduate males represented by an 85 man football squad. My numbers may be off a little in individual cases, but overall you can see that the football team is a very large segment of the student population and you can understand how some might view this as the tail wagging the dog.

If one agrees that allowing a coach to recruit the entire pool of available athletes as opposed to just at the margins (typically very rich or very poor) then it's also a good argument that scholarships can get you a better athlete AND a better student. This is one of the arguments I first heard from dear old gate13 and I agree with it but it's arguable that you can just go to scholarships and NOT raise the bar at all (or you can do something like implement a league-wide AI that lowers the bar for everyone but one school xbawlingx:p).

Seriously, in a day where rankings matter so much you'd think that LC and HC would be leading the charge to approve something that can raise the academic profile of ~ 7% of their male student body.

[DFW HOYA]

How does offereing 63 scholarships to players based on athletic merit, out of thousands of students, cause the tail to wag the dog?

Two of the five PL schools (Colgate, Georgetown) offer no merit grants whatsoever, so the idea that some students get admitted with a form of merit aid (athletic scholarship) causes indigestion in some quarters.

This is the week acceptances are going out and the aggregate numbers don't look to be moving the AI down a bit. Applicants to Georgetown in general are seeing a lot of wait-lists if their scores are below a 1500 on the 1600 scale.

[Fordham]

Two of the five PL schools (Colgate, Georgetown) offer no merit grants whatsoever, so the idea that some students get admitted with a form of merit aid (athletic scholarship) causes indigestion in some quarters.

xconfusedx


This is the week acceptances are going out and the aggregate numbers don't look to be moving the AI down a bit. Applicants to Georgetown in general are seeing a lot of wait-lists if their scores are below a 1500 on the 1600 scale.

wow!

[Fordham]

Of course, it doesn't help Georgetown or Bucknell, that's for sure.Then again, none of these options really helps them.

How can you say that it doesn't help Georgetown or Bucknell? Whatever dollars you're spending now can be spent as you see fit instead of having an extra filter applied to it that has you only offer it to the poor or hoping that you can find a kid who's parents don't care about the price tag. That entire area in between those two is now available to you.

As I said before, schools that spend more will see an even greater increase than schools that spend less ... but that doesn't mean that the schools that spend less won't also see a benefit.

[turbodean]

One area of savings not mentioned much if at all is in recruiting. With the AI and aid-only limitations, PL schools have had to scour every inch of the country looking for these poor-smart and/or rich-smart talented athletes. This 'looking for a needle in a giant haystack' has ramped up recruiting costs tremendously.

By going to athletic scholarships exotic and costly recruiting will end. Many more qualified candidates will emerge from more normal recruiting efforts.

[Ken_Z]

i think Bucknell's admin is moving forward a bit on its support of football. however, not sure if that is good or bad wrt the scholarship debate. they always seem to look to see if they can be competitive with the least amount of movement possible. see slow movement on scholarship front as teams, e.g. lax and soccer, that have been successful are askjed to continue to succeed without scjholarships even as other PL schools are adding them. wish they would have learned from the basketball experience that long term, they cannot continue to compete successfully this way.

i will be very interested to see if anything comes out of the April BOT meeting on the ongoing study of merit aid. certainly will not be the forum for a football announcement, but if Bucknell does not move forward on this issue, i will take it as a bad sign re the vote for football.

p.s. so i am still on record correctly, i think football cscholarships will happen although my handicapping has backed off a bit on the probablility, let's say 60% - 65% likelihood.

[Go...gate]

Two of the five PL schools (Colgate, Georgetown) offer no merit grants whatsoever, so the idea that some students get admitted with a form of merit aid (athletic scholarship) causes indigestion in some quarters.

This is the week acceptances are going out and the aggregate numbers don't look to be moving the AI down a bit. Applicants to Georgetown in general are seeing a lot of wait-lists if their scores are below a 1500 on the 1600 scale.

I believe Colgate's Alumni Memorial Scholarships (a worthy program largely in memory of students lost in wartime and heavily funded by Colgate's war veterans) are merit in nature. Not many of them in total, though, and certainly while some go to athletes, many go to non-athletes as well.

[Fordham]

I believe Colgate's Alumni Memorial Scholarships (a worthy program largely in memory of students lost in wartime and heavily funded by Colgate's war veterans) are merit in nature. Not many of them in total, though, and certainly while some go to athletes, many go to non-athletes as well.

when DFW writes "so the idea that some students get admitted with a form of merit aid (athletic scholarship) causes indigestion in some quarters." ... how does that relate to a Georgetown basketball player or Colgate hockey player?

[MplsBison]

Two of the five PL schools (Colgate, Georgetown) offer no merit grants whatsoever, so the idea that some students get admitted with a form of merit aid (athletic scholarship) causes indigestion in some quarters.

This is the week acceptances are going out and the aggregate numbers don't look to be moving the AI down a bit. Applicants to Georgetown in general are seeing a lot of wait-lists if their scores are below a 1500 on the 1600 scale.


Georgetown offers no merit aid to baseketball players? Come on...

[DFW HOYA]

when DFW writes "so the idea that some students get admitted with a form of merit aid (athletic scholarship) causes indigestion in some quarters." ... how does that relate to a Georgetown basketball player or Colgate hockey player?

Athletic scholarships and ROTC are outside of the need-based aid formula , so that's the distinction.

With the relative competition for admission, it's not easy to tell parents why their version of Tracy Flick can't go to Georgetown but a 6-8 forward can. (Of course, those same academicians don't seem to bemoan the lacrosse player or the long distance runner, just the basketball player.)

[ngineer]

How does offereing 63 scholarships to players based on athletic merit, out of thousands of students, cause the tail to wag the dog?

I was talking in terms of a department's budget in comparison with other departments in the school. With '63 scholarships' fully funded, that would mean roughly $3.2M, then add cost of recruiting, staff, capital, and maintenance and you have a 'department' budget that is way out of kilter with other departments in an institution that is supposed to be focused on academics.

[MplsBison]

How much does Lehigh spend in research each year?

What a load.

[ngineer]

How much does Lehigh spend in research each year?

What a load.

Don't know the answer on how much is spent; however, the University does make a lot on research--one of he leading research Universities in terms of engineering and science. Athletics makes 'zero' in terms of net income. Indeed it is a significant 'loss' in terms of revenue generated, gifts received versus money spent. Similary, the English, Accounting, Civil Engineering Depts, etc, etc, do not bring in 'net revenue' in the balance sheet sense. I dare say that no sport at Lehigh, with perhaps the one exception of wrestling (and I even doubt it exists there, too) 'makes money' for the school. But then, athletics is not intended to be a 'money maker' at such schools. It is supposed to be a collateral part of the education process. Hence, the reason we have a "Dean of Athletics" and not an "Athletic Director". As such, the 'college' of athletics budget is a negative revenue activity as is most academic areas, with the 'Department of Football' being by far the largest expenditure of funds. In academic institutions, Boards of Trustees and Administrators look upon these activities in this light as opposed to a pure business model. If the school were strictly involved in athletics to turn a profit, the endeavor would have been jetisoned a long time ago.

[LBPop]

How can you say that it doesn't help Georgetown or Bucknell? Whatever dollars you're spending now can be spent as you see fit instead of having an extra filter applied to it that has you only offer it to the poor or hoping that you can find a kid who's parents don't care about the price tag. That entire area in between those two is now available to you.

As I said before, schools that spend more will see an even greater increase than schools that spend less ... but that doesn't mean that the schools that spend less won't also see a benefit.

Clearly, if everyone benefits from a particular policy change but some benefit more than others, those that benefit the least are competitively harmed by that policy. That's how Georgetown might be harmed by scholarships being permitted in the PL. Having said that, I personally wouldn't mind scholarships for PL football even if it did initially work against Georgetown. My suspicion is that a new policy in the PL would "wake up" some possible donors and the administration. The Hoyas might actually generate more cash if it can be given directly to top players who would like to go to Georgetown. This is just a guess. But if you're running dead last in a race why not try almost anything. How can you win fewer than zero league games?xrolleyesx

[Fordham]

Clearly, if everyone benefits from a particular policy change but some benefit more than others, those that benefit the least are competitively harmed by that policy. That's how Georgetown might be harmed by scholarships being permitted in the PL.
...

I understand your point but it's tough as hell to find any issue that is going to make every program better while not violating league values or identity ... let alone do that equally across the board before being implemented. If you're not allowed to implement something that benefits all teams, because it applies that benefit to all but unequally, how do you have a chance to implement anything?

It also makes it difficult to accept that an issue like the AI gets imposed on us and it's not even something that made us better overall but not at the same rate as the rest of the league ... but actually singled us out as the only program to be negatively impacted.

[DFW HOYA]

It also makes it difficult to accept that an issue like the AI gets imposed on us and it's not even something that made us better overall but not at the same rate as the rest of the league ... but actually singled us out as the only program to be negatively impacted.

The PL isn't deciding between singling out Fordham vs. six schools instantly adding scholarships and consigning Georgetown to decades of last place finishes. It's a lot more complicated than that.

Fordham's strategic mistake was not in pushing this to a vote (which most of us would agree is/was needed), but telling everyone that they're already making plans to leave. Instead of getting a "no" vote and making a decision thereafter, they're putting the other PL presidents in a corner. In poker terms, they've shown their hand regardless of what cards come up.

The irony is that the PL will probably add scholarships on its own schedule, slow though it may be, but by that time Fordham's $4 million program is marooned in a southern league with Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian, all just to play a I-A road game in early September.

[turbodean]

Fordham's "end game" isn't to play one FBS game every year. It is to improve the overall quality of the product it puts on the field each year; which it is finding harder and harder to do in its current situation.

[LUHawker]

Fordham's "end game" isn't to play one FBS game every year. It is to improve the overall quality of the product it puts on the field each year; which it is finding harder and harder to do in its current situation.

There has only been 1, count 'em 1, recruiting class subject to the new AI, so while I am supportive of Fordham's efforts to get schollies, it is totally bogus to keep harping on the fact that Fordham is finding it "harder and harder".

I think Fordham has a lot more going on that is hurting its efforts, like poor facilities and low fan support, than purely an AI issue. For goodness sake's, FU was the PL champ two years ago.

[Fordham]

Fordham's strategic mistake was not in pushing this to a vote (which most of us would agree is/was needed), but telling everyone that they're already making plans to leave. Instead of getting a "no" vote and making a decision thereafter, they're putting the other PL presidents in a corner. In poker terms, they've shown their hand regardless of what cards come up. Hmmmm ... so even though we knew we were going to go scholarship in '10, we should have lied and said that we simply wanted a vote on the issue AND THEN revealed to the league that we're leaving to go scholarship regardless?

1. How would that ever be considered acting in a manner consistent with being a good league partner?

2. How would that ever be considered a MORE effective way of getting the league to vote on scholarships? Saying that we're going scholarship regardless is the only thing that created a enough of a sense of urgency to get this discussed. How you could ever argue that lessening the sense of urgency around the issue would have improved the chances of going scholarship? It's much more likely that lessening that sense of urgency would have given the PL the wiggle room in this economy to have quickly put things off indefinitely.


The irony is that the PL will probably add scholarships on its own schedule, slow though it may be, but by that time Fordham's $4 million program is marooned in a southern league with Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian, all just to play a I-A road game in early September. This is the kind of opinion-stated-as-fact line that's frustrating to read and certainly doesn't help the overall discussion. xnonox

The Big South, hopefully, will be one of our options if we're not in the PL anymore but I've repeatedly stated in pretty much every thread on the topic that going independent is our preferred option right now. A PL that is the DFW-scholarship-timeline but still has the league-wide AI is certainly considered the worst option available.

[DFW HOYA]

Hmmmm ... so even though we knew we were going to go scholarship in '10, we should have lied and said that we simply wanted a vote on the issue AND THEN revealed to the league that we're leaving to go scholarship regardless? How would that ever be considered acting in a manner consistent with being a good league partner?

Calling for a vote and then approving scholarships when a no vote is rendered or the issue is tabled would be more consistent in my opinion.




A PL that is the DFW-scholarship-timeline but still has the league-wide AI is certainly considered the worst option available.

Actually, I take a different approach. I think the AI is a sop to the Ivy League and the PL can get along fine without it, and even attract some more like minded schools who can maange their own admissions in a collegial manner (such as Fordham). Granted, this has very little or no support within the PL community, but that's one idea.

[colorless raider]

Calling for a vote and then approving scholarships when a no vote is rendered or the issue is tabled would be more consistent in my opinion.




Actually, I take a different approach. I think the AI is a sop to the Ivy League and the PL can get along fine without it, and even attract some more like minded schools who can maange their own admissions in a collegial manner (such as Fordham). Granted, this has very little or no support within the PL community, but that's one idea.

LOTS OF LUCK. There is no chance the AI gets dumped as long as the Ivy has it. No self confidence or creativity by the PL. It's just "me too" with the Ivies. Pathetic.

[carney2]

In my opinion LFN has the only solution that will work - a phase-in. And it better be something that allows most schools to do absolutely nothing while the economic sword is hanging over their heads. This might allow Fordham to move forward while the rest of these sheep cower for a few years.

What think you, Fordham fans - any chance? You'd be virtually guaranteed a championship or two down the road while you wait for those with the stomach for it to play catch up.

[colorless raider]

Carney's solution is probably our best option, given who we are dealing with.

[RichH2]

Compromise is a wonderful word. How it applies to FU's ultimatum with this economy and our lack of concrete info ( or a crystal ball) leads to an almost inevitable conclusion that little will happen now in the PL. The real issue is what will Fordham do? Do they have any viable options? June will pass IMHO with no resolution. Any decision will await more eco developement come the end on next season.

[PAT]

Let me make sure I understand what the need for compromise is. I thought Fordham had already compromised when they caved on the AI in return for an accelerated time table for the consideration of Schollies. The way I see it now is that if you are a decent athlete : Rich and Dumb is OKAY, Poor and Dumb is NOT OKAY, If you are a marginal athlete : Rich and Smart is Okay, Poor and Dumb is Still NOT OKAY. If your are an exceptional athlete : Rich and Smart is Really Okay, Poor and Dumb is OKAY while we look the other way.

But if the Mission of your University provides opportunities for those who marginally qualify even if they have no Athletic Talents at all and thus you have a lower AI an an institution; you can not let that be reflected in your overall AI.

How about a system where giving an assist to students with lower incomes or lower Prep educational opportunities is given bonus Schollies based upon Graduation and maybe even add'l bonus Schollies upon their completion of Grad. School. Perhaps some of these schools have too high a perception of their status in the mythical rankings and don't look closely enough at their real accomplishments.

[CFBfan]

where is anything and dumb OK at any PL school......except possibly Fordham???
And how sad is that if true!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let me make sure I understand what the need for compromise is. I thought Fordham had already compromised when they caved on the AI in return for an accelerated time table for the consideration of Schollies...

As an affiliate, Fordham, a football-only member, would not have "compromised" when the League performed a league-wide change to the AI that affects all sports.

They would have been consulted and their input considered, I'd imagine, but the idea that this was a something that Fordham had a choice about changing is misleading. This was something that all eight schools/presidents would have had input about, and affiliates notified that it's happening. The PL made the change, and Fordham is reacting to it. Fordham did not "cave" - that implies that they were consulted, and the AI changes hinged on their participation. They did not.

[Fordham]

In my opinion LFN has the only solution that will work - a phase-in. And it better be something that allows most schools to do absolutely nothing while the economic sword is hanging over their heads. This might allow Fordham to move forward while the rest of these sheep cower for a few years.

What think you, Fordham fans - any chance? You'd be virtually guaranteed a championship or two down the road while you wait for those with the stomach for it to play catch up.I have no inside information but it sure seems like it would work. Realistically, I don't see a difference between a phase-in and going full scholarship immediately. I'm assuming that either way, we're going to recruit a similar number of kids for the incoming class and in either case, both would be scholarship. It's really how you treat the upperclassmen and whether or not you convert them from need-based to scholarship that I see as the difference here ... but I could be completely wrong and be missing something.

Overall, though, I'd find it hard to believe that we'd turn it down. It would really be a committment by the league to go scholarship.




Compromise is a wonderful word. How it applies to FU's ultimatum with this economy and our lack of concrete info ( or a crystal ball) leads to an almost inevitable conclusion that little will happen now in the PL. The real issue is what will Fordham do? Do they have any viable options? June will pass IMHO with no resolution. Any decision will await more eco developement come the end on next season.
Interesting. My take on it is that the ball is the PL's court ... meaning that Fordham informed the PL that we're going scholarship next year so it's up to the PL to say whether or not that will be within the league or not. If they don't make a decision or provide any direction I don't think it then falls to Fordham to leave as much as we just move forward with the plan we informed the league about.

It does create an incredibly passive additonal option. The PL just ignores the issue and the fact that one of its members is going scholarship. I don't see that happening but still possible if they never agree to discuss it.

[Franks Tanks]

Let me make sure I understand what the need for compromise is. I thought Fordham had already compromised when they caved on the AI in return for an accelerated time table for the consideration of Schollies. The way I see it now is that if you are a decent athlete : Rich and Dumb is OKAY, Poor and Dumb is NOT OKAY, If you are a marginal athlete : Rich and Smart is Okay, Poor and Dumb is Still NOT OKAY. If your are an exceptional athlete : Rich and Smart is Really Okay, Poor and Dumb is OKAY while we look the other way.

But if the Mission of your University provides opportunities for those who marginally qualify even if they have no Athletic Talents at all and thus you have a lower AI an an institution; you can not let that be reflected in your overall AI.

How about a system where giving an assist to students with lower incomes or lower Prep educational opportunities is given bonus Schollies based upon Graduation and maybe even add'l bonus Schollies upon their completion of Grad. School. Perhaps some of these schools have too high a perception of their status in the mythical rankings and don't look closely enough at their real accomplishments.


You are so off the mark in so many ways. . Dumb is never ok.

Also all the aid given out is need based. Therefore poor is good for PL recruiting as we can give full aid to those kids.

[ngineer]

The PR/Political ramifications of going to pure athletic scholarships is with the faculties. A major uprising there cannot be afforded by any institution. Hence, the gradual introduciton as proposed by LFN is the only realistic way I see this succeeding./

[RichH2]

Dog wagging tail,tail wagging dog.. I agree that gradual switch only viable method. BUT, I doubt PL will move by June. BOTs etc do not move that quickly. Sept, Oct maybe late summer seemsmore their speed. If not FU will leave or not leave as they decide.We will continue the endless talk of new members and schollies .

[ngineer]

Dog wagging tail,tail wagging dog.. I agree that gradual switch only viable method. BUT, I doubt PL will move by June. BOTs etc do not move that quickly. Sept, Oct maybe late summer seemsmore their speed. If not FU will leave or not leave as they decide.We will continue the endless talk of new members and schollies .


What else would we have to talk about??xrolleyesx:D

[RichH2]

Heck, I would like to talk about how far we'll go in the playoffs. With nice schedules at least for the next 2 years, very good qb solid depth all around. I would like an answer up or down on schollies and move on. I dread becoming an IL add on as we were at the start and I hope we wont but it is toofrustrating to await PL.

[Lehigh74]

Heck, I would like to talk about how far we'll go in the playoffs. With nice schedules at least for the next 2 years, very good qb solid depth all around. I would like an answer up or down on schollies and move on. I dread becoming an IL add on as we were at the start and I hope we wont but it is toofrustrating to await PL.

Please enlighten me. I have no idea what you are talking about when you say, "I dread becoming an IL add on as we were at the start..."

[RichH2]

The original conference "Colonial" was formed not so much as an add on to IL but certainly an emulation, slavish at times of the IL, we were referred to as the Ivy Lite conference. As IL deemphasized football we expanded and improved so that we were actually beating the ILfairly regularly as opposed to losing to them 54-0 as LU did my fresman yr

[Native]

Scholarships are the key. Oklahoma wanted to play UNH this year! Coastal Carolina played pennstate. Those games are possible to play--maybe not to win.xsmhx

Oklahoma settled on Idaho State. IDAHO STATE?!?! xeyebrowx

[RichH2]

OOC games are a nice bonus for PL teams but I would rather play W&M, JMU etc rather than money games vs Rutgers et al $$ games few and far between Impossible to base your program on that income. PL is not Montana or AppSt consistently.

[OLPOP]

Ah, but that could change.

[RichH2]

Possible but unlikely, our recruiting pool even with schollies much much smaller than Montana etc.
Of course ,I would expect PL presence in 1st and 2nd round and occasionally further ala Colgate.

But it is nice to dream.

[OLPOP]

Yes, a smaller recruiting pool than state schools, but not necessarily smaller than Richmond's and W&M's.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, a smaller recruiting pool than state schools, but not necessarily smaller than Richmond's and W&M's.

Without scholarships and WITH the strict Academic index it is smaller.

[DFW HOYA]

If Fordham gets scholarships, it's under the new AI, correct?

[OLPOP]

Exactly. However, WITH scholarships the pool grows considerably.

[Franks Tanks]

If Fordham gets scholarships, it's under the new AI, correct?

Yes

[Fordham]

If Fordham gets scholarships, it's under the new AI, correct?

as long as we're still in the PL when we go scholarship

[DFW HOYA]

as long as we're still in the PL when we go scholarship


That's not a phrase heard much at Georgetown...

[RichH2]

All the speculation over this situation , makes me wonder how the landscape in the NE will change over the next 2-4 years. If PL goes schollie or doesn't I would expect major shifts in FCS . FU joining SB and Albany et al certainly will further hit PL recruiting already being affected by expanded schollies in the NE. What kind of shift will this lead to in conference alignments? Can or will CAA survive as is? PL will survive FU departure but as what kind of conference? Economy hits us all but perhaps PL more than most with its $50,000.00 pricetag.
Can PL compete with massive aid available in IL and lowercost state schools?

[danefan]

All the speculation over this situation , makes me wonder how the landscape in the NE will change over the next 2-4 years. If PL goes schollie or doesn't I would expect major shifts in FCS . FU joining SB and Albany et al certainly will further hit PL recruiting already being affected by expanded schollies in the NE. What kind of shift will this lead to in conference alignments? Can or will CAA survive as is? PL will survive FU departure but as what kind of conference? Economy hits us all but perhaps PL more than most with its $50,000.00 pricetag.
Can PL compete with massive aid available in IL and lowercost state schools?


Interestingly, applications increased at Albany this year to over 22,000 with acceptance rates falling to the lowest they have every been.

[Franks Tanks]

Interestingly, applications increased at Albany this year to over 22,000 with acceptance rates falling to the lowest they have every been.

I think many quality state schools are seeing the same thing. Many private schools stil give very good aid so some of it may be perception as well. Private schools have taken a large hit with shrinking endowments, but many state schools are in worse situations with decreased state funding.

[RichH2]

Exactly my point, I imagine Stony Brook wont be much different. A kid who can get 20,000 aid from LU based on need would still better $$wise at Albany even w/o a scholarship

[Uncle Buck]

Interestingly, applications increased at Albany this year to over 22,000 with acceptance rates falling to the lowest they have every been.

The problem with SUNY schools, we charge too little for out of state students so it's still a bargain to them. Look at our out of state rates compared to a lot of the other state systems out there, we're one of the best deals in town.

SUNY needs to raise out of state tuition because the system no longer caters to the in state students. And yes, you will see more and more apps to the SUNY system as college costs escalate. In turn, apps go up, acceptance rates drop. SUNY is already having a problem at several campuses where they just don't have enough room for everyone.

[Redwyn]

The problem with SUNY schools, we charge too little for out of state students so it's still a bargain to them. Look at our out of state rates compared to a lot of the other state systems out there, we're one of the best deals in town.

SUNY needs to raise out of state tuition because the system no longer caters to the in state students. And yes, you will see more and more apps to the SUNY system as college costs escalate. In turn, apps go up, acceptance rates drop. SUNY is already having a problem at several campuses where they just don't have enough room for everyone.

Stony Brook's applications skyrocketed this year. For the Honors College alone they received over 400 applications per slot (60 total). The Uni is seeing an explosion across the board in quality applicants, and I expect the post-acceptance attrition to be much lower than in previous years.

I completely agree with UncleBuck. The economic climate, while a belt tightener for both private and public schools, is providing a fantastic application influx for state programs. It's in this recession that places like Buffalo, Albany, and Stony Brook have a chance to make fantastic strides in student body composition and national perception/rank.

[danefan]

The problem with SUNY schools, we charge too little for out of state students so it's still a bargain to them. Look at our out of state rates compared to a lot of the other state systems out there, we're one of the best deals in town.

SUNY needs to raise out of state tuition because the system no longer caters to the in state students. And yes, you will see more and more apps to the SUNY system as college costs escalate. In turn, apps go up, acceptance rates drop. SUNY is already having a problem at several campuses where they just don't have enough room for everyone.

Agreed, but the real problem with SUNY is that it is still treated like a state agency. There was an amendment proposed this year that would have allowed each university center to set its own variable tuition for out-of-state students based on major. It wasn't passed, unfortunately. That is necessary.

Sorry to hijack the thread. There are a million problems with SUNY that could take up an entire server full of message board threads.

[Redwyn]

Agreed, but the real problem with SUNY is that it is still treated like a state agency. There was an amendment proposed this year that would have allowed each university center to set its own variable tuition for out-of-state students based on major. It wasn't passed, unfortunately. That is necessary.

Sorry to hijack the thread. There are a million problems with SUNY that could take up an entire server full of message board threads.

No kidding? Was there a reason given by the dissenting vote?

[danefan]

No kidding? Was there a reason given by the dissenting vote?

It was in the article VII bill to the budget. I can't find any commentary. There were also proposals to allow SUNY centers to get out of the dreadful bidding process for construction and to allow SUNY centers to capitlize the land they own with borrowings and leases. All were denied.

[Redwyn]

It was in the article VII bill to the budget. I can't find any commentary. There were also proposals to allow SUNY centers to get out of the dreadful bidding process for construction and to allow SUNY centers to capitlize the land they own with borrowings and leases. All were denied.

I heard about the construction issues. The existing system only makes sense from an entirely bureaucratic standpoint. Doesn't really matter atm, most of SBU's major construction's on the back burner anyway in recent months.

Thanks for the info!

[danefan]

I heard about the construction issues. The existing system only makes sense from an entirely bureaucratic standpoint. Doesn't really matter atm, most of SBU's major construction's on the back burner anyway in recent months.

Thanks for the info!

All capital funding was frozen in the 09-10 budget. So unless it was a reappropriation from prior years (SBU did get some athletic capital funding in 08-09xnonono2x) there isn't any money there except for critical renovation.

We follow the budget pretty closely as fans of UAlbany. We like to see exactly how we're getting screwed. xthumbsupx

[ngineer]

Do I smell a hijacking here???xrolleyesx;):D

[busybee14]

IMO,The reason SUNY schools OOS rates are low is because its the Northeast!your competeing with SW and Sun belt states for students.Why go freeze your a$% off and see the sun 1/2 the time you would at southern school.For the most part(since this is still about football)the atmosphere,game day ,tradition etc..all seem to be stronger down in the south.

And just a little side note for you, Hofstra & Stonybrook fans.I work with some top level HS recruits and I can tell you the staffs at those schools do not do themselves any favors when it comes to recruiting in the south.Quite a few of our players(Who are d-1a 2010 guys )Say they try and try to make contact with coaches via email and calls and never hear back after multiple attemps! Not just rec ruits, we have staff calls go unreturned as well.so these kids end up dancing with someone else.Just thought you would like to know.As a fan this would piss me off,knowing talent is knocking ,and no one is answering the door!

[LBPop]

Do I smell a hijacking here???xrolleyesx;):D

Yep, I had to go back and check the title of the thread...xlolx

[danefan]

Agreed, but the real problem with SUNY is that it is still treated like a state agency. There was an amendment proposed this year that would have allowed each university center to set its own variable tuition for out-of-state students based on major. It wasn't passed, unfortunately. That is necessary.

Sorry to hijack the thread. There are a million problems with SUNY that could take up an entire server full of message board threads.


Do I smell a hijacking here???xrolleyesx;):D


Yep, I had to go back and check the title of the thread...xlolx

At least I apologized in advance.....xsmiley_wix

[Uncle Buck]

And just a little side note for you, Hofstra & Stonybrook fans.I work with some top level HS recruits and I can tell you the staffs at those schools do not do themselves any favors when it comes to recruiting in the south.Quite a few of our players(Who are d-1a 2010 guys )Say they try and try to make contact with coaches via email and calls and never hear back after multiple attemps! Not just rec ruits, we have staff calls go unreturned as well.so these kids end up dancing with someone else.Just thought you would like to know.As a fan this would piss me off,knowing talent is knocking ,and no one is answering the door!

You're not telling me anything that i didn't already know happens. I had the same issue when i coached in Virginia and they weren't really recruiting here. They were terrible and lost out on a kid who went to Va Tech as a preferred walk on and now plays on Sundays.