Bye, bye Fordham

[ngineer]

While in some down time out here, I had the chance to talk to some people who are closer to the athletic situation at Lehigh and the Patriot League than I, and who don't see the League changing it's stance on athletic grants in aid as opposed to pure scholarships.

The reason is what would be anticipated as opening the gates to an 'arms race' that the schools do not want to engage in--especially in the current economic situation. While theoretically, no additional money would be sought, tremendous pressure would arise to spend more to 'keep up' with others with 'cut throat' spending occuring. Under the current situation, with all member schools following the need-based formula for issuing grants in aid, everyone has to play by the same rules on extending financial aid. Take away that restriction and those schools that can will be freer to undercut competitors with lesser resources.

Therefore, the expressed attitude was 'Good Luck Rams--a couple years from now you'll be sorry and Masella will be gone'. I expect the PL will ratchet up their seeking a replacement for Fordham for the 2010 season.

[Tribe4SF]

While in some down time out here, I had the chance to talk to some people who are closer to the athletic situation at Lehigh and the Patriot League than I, and who don't see the League changing it's stance on athletic grants in aid as opposed to pure scholarships.

The reason is what would be anticipated as opening the gates to an 'arms race' that the schools do not want to engage in--especially in the current economic situation. While theoretically, no additional money would be sought, tremendous pressure would arise to spend more to 'keep up' with others with 'cut throat' spending occuring. Under the current situation, with all member schools following the need-based formula for issuing grants in aid, everyone has to play by the same rules on extending financial aid. Take away that restriction and those schools that can will be freer to undercut competitors with lesser resources.

Therefore, the expressed attitude was 'Good Luck Rams--a couple years from now you'll be sorry and Masella will be gone'. I expect the PL will ratchet up their seeking a replacement for Fordham for the 2010 season.

The reasoning expressed here is precisely why PL football is fading into oblivion. Irrational fear that some bogeyman is lying in wait to be released by the advent of scholarship football. There's already an "arms race" in the PL (see Lafayette facility upgrades). Those with lesser resources were left in the dust years ago.

First Towson...now Fordham. Maybe the "bye, bye" should be for the league, not the Rams.

[turbodean]

ngineer - it's Fordham with the plan and the plan is to move on with or without the PL. This was no empty threat, you can be sure that those at Fordham making this decision are well prepared to move ahead without the PL.

the questions aren't so much what will Fordham do without the PL as what will the PL do without Fordham. Fordham has a multitude options moving forward and these changes are already happening. The PL has limited options in replacing the Rams, most having 'years to implement' at best. There are numerous examples of other programs doing similar to what Fordham is doing and they are not only surviving, but they are thriving. The much bigger risk for Fordham was to do nothing and let the league determine their fate by moving them in a direction they didn't want to go in (further and further away from the FCS elite).

If Masella moves on, it will be to bigger and better things. If that's what he wants, then we wish him well. As for the program, he will have left it in much better shape than when he arrived and with the changes and improvements he has implemented there will be no shortage of quality talent wanting to fill the position and to continue moving the program forward.

Therefore it's more like; Bye, Bye PL

[DFW HOYA]

If Lehigh is not behind it, chances are it doesn't go anywhere.

The PL probably has three or four realistic replacements within its footprint as associate members (Marist, Bryant, maybe Duquesne, probably not Davidson) and as long as it has the autobid, it will tolerate another underfunded program in the standings (e.g., Georgetown).

That having been said, I'm a bit surprised that Fordham has seemingly taken this "up or out" approach by themselves. A movement always has strength in numbers: if Fordham went to the PL on this with a Colgate by its side or with Lehigh or even with Georgetown (under a different scenario), suddenly the stakes get much, much higher. When Miami left the Big East, it wasn't just one school that shook the foundations, it was that three schools would be turning in notice, and the uncertainty on who they eventually were was the driver for change.

If Masella's promise is accurate, Fordham's last game in the league could be against Georgetown in the season finale, the 45th anniversary of the renewal of football at each school. Let's hope it's not the last meeting between the schools.

[Wildcat80]

I'm with Fordham on this. Arms Race? get real. do you think all schools have equal aid resources? Anything that improves the standing of Northeast football--which scholarships do--I'm for. The addition of gsu & odu will hurt the caa north in the long run. A Northeast football conference is forming. Fordham wants in.

[danefan]

I'm with Fordham on this. Arms Race? get real. do you think all schools have equal aid resources? Anything that improves the standing of Northeast football--which scholarships do--I'm for. The addition of gsu & odu will hurt the caa north in the long run. A Northeast football conference is forming. Fordham wants in.

I agree.
I'll be glad if the PL doesn't adopt scholarships. They'll continue to stand still while the NEC move up alongside them.

I can't wait for things to shake out. I look forward to seeing the Albany-Fordham games again and this time I hope its a league game in the the new full scholarships new england/mid atlantic conference.

[Fordham]

Interesting stuff, ng. Thanks for posting what you heard. Handling it this way will surely put the ball in our lap to see if we'll follow through on our promise or not. From what I've been told, we're going scholarship regardless, but you never know ...

I still don't follow the 'arms race' rationale expressed, though. How is it really any different than it is today?


If Lehigh is not behind it, chances are it doesn't go anywhere.

...
That having been said, I'm a bit surprised that Fordham has seemingly taken this "up or out" approach by themselves. A movement always has strength in numbers: if Fordham went to the PL on this with a Colgate by its side or with Lehigh or even with Georgetown (under a different scenario), suddenly the stakes get much, much higher. When Miami left the Big East, it wasn't just one school that shook the foundations, it was that three schools would be turning in notice, and the uncertainty on who they eventually were was the driver for change.

If Masella's promise is accurate, Fordham's last game in the league could be against Georgetown in the season finale, the 45th anniversary of the renewal of football at each school. Let's hope it's not the last meeting between the schools.

Agreed on all of these points. I'll try to find out more detail regarding the go-it-alone approach. I'm not sure if we were cajoled into standing up for this (in which case this might not be over) or if we were so frustrated by what we viewed as a broken promise over the AI/scholarship link being broken that we just threw up our hands and said that we're doing this. Really not sure at this point which of those two it was (or possibly both) but I'll try to find out.

[ngineer]

I don't disagree with anything being said above. Merely reporting what the discussion entailed. The PL schools (the BOTs and Presidents) don't see football as an 'end all'. They see it as a nice component of an overall academic setting, with the emphasis on spending resources on academics moreso than athletics, and hence don't see justification in such spending in lean times on what is not a core of the academic mission. That's just the way it is. Unfortunately for us football fans, we're going to have to accept being more in the Ivy model, but with lesser finances.

[aceinthehole]

The PL probably has three or four realistic replacements within its footprint as associate members (Marist, Bryant, maybe Duquesne, probably not Davidson) and as long as it has the autobid, it will tolerate another underfunded program in the standings (e.g., Georgetown).

Marist, is still likely the only FB-affilate option for the PL. If the Red Foxes can pony up some $$$ for grants, they would be a decent option fit to fill your gap.

Bryant accepted full membership in the NEC and while I'm sure they would have preferred full membership in the PL, that offer wasn't made. The NEC will not let Bryant play football in the PL, period. So unless, a full membership offer is coming to Bryant (and they buy out of their agreement with the NEC), that isn't happening.

Duquesne is only a FB-only member of the NEC, so they could more easily leave for PL football, but I have to ask - why would they now? Presuming the were interested in PL football after the MAAC collapased, why didn't they seal the deal with the PL before taking the NEC offer? With an AQ in the NEC and full scholarship flexibility (no minimums, up to 40 max) what does the PL offer the Dukes but AI restrictions and a grant-in-aid status?

If Fordham leaves, the PL will not have pick of the litter, as some may think.

[Fordham]

Like a bad Chinese dinner is the PL set to continue repeating itself? That's my big concern, given what happened back when we were all-sports members. We tell them it's 'full scholarship for hoops or we're leaving' and we're allowed to go. HC steps in a year or two later (I believe that's the timeline) and the league acquiesces. ... if they had only made that move when we made our request, we'd likely still be there as all-sports members.

If the PL is truly committed to having "football as a nice component of an overall academic setting" and that means a clear philosophical opposition to scholarships, that's fine ... even though it begs the question of why it's allowed in other sports. However, the disappointing thing would be if our membership is once again the price to pay to merely set the stage for the eventual move to scholarships.

[Model Citizen]

The PL probably has three or four realistic replacements within its footprint as associate members (Marist, Bryant, maybe Duquesne, probably not Davidson) ...

DFW,

What factors do you see working for/against Marist moving from the PFL to the Patriot?

Same question for Davidson.

Thx.

[mainejeff]

If Fordham has to be an Independent for a couple of seasons........Maine will be happy to schedule a home and home with you. :)

[RichH2]

Understandable rationale by BOTs unfortunately, but shortsighted. fueled by those afraid that LU,Gate et al will indeed ,having more $$, spend more and widen the gap between top and bottom teams. If move does not add additional cost then should not hamper "academic issues".

Logic is flawed however .Just put a cap on aid. I would prefer 58-60. but for now do 55, will not change balance overmuch and leaves open increase as economy improves. Would FU live with such a cap?

No schollies will indeed doom the PL to insignificance.xmadx

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, What factors do you see working for/against Marist moving from the PFL to the Patriot? Same question for Davidson.
Thx.

Assuming Marist as an all sports member...

For
1. "The American U. Effect": Administrators may see the PL as a means to reposition the school academically as well as athletically, and become more competitive for NCAA post-season berths in basketball (only two bids all-time, none since 1987).
2. Lower potential travel costs vs. Pioneer (all PL road games within a 5 hour bus trip) and the opportunity to schedule Ivy schools with more likelihood than a Pioneer school would.
3. Enhanced rivalry opportunities in other PL sports with Army.

Against...
1. Higher operating expense and financial aid commitments. Marist currently is 270th in Division I in athletic budgets and among the bottom 15 in I-AA on football spending.
2. Perception of a PL move as a step "down" from the MAAC in other sports.
3. Football Non-competitveness. It took Fordham 12 years to climb the PL standings, Georgetown enters year nine this year with six league wins since 2001. Marist would have to expect a protracted run of losing seasons.

Davidson (as an associate member)

For
1. Opportunity to compete in an autobid conference
2. Ivy league scheduling opportunities
3. Good academic "fit" for recruiting

Against
1. Higher operating expense and financial aid commitments
2. Slightly higher travel budgets
3. Non-competitiveness: it drove the Wildcats from the Colonial League--are they prepared for more of the same?

[mainejeff]

So looking down the road.......if forming a new football conference we COULD have the following:

Maine
UNH
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Fordham

I wonder how Northeastern and Hofstra would feel about being the Northern outposts in a Southern based football league when they could have so many local rivals in this other league?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Will the Patriot League forfeit their auto-bid to the playoffs? If i was the NCAA and the PL basically said they're not interested in competing at the high level i would then consider giving the bid to another conference. I love Lehigh football but the elitist attitude of the PL schools does get old.

[RichH2]

Owl,

I agree sadly. I cannot grasp either in IL or PL the blindness shown towards footbal We allow schollies in every other sport ,wile LU has fallen way behind in aid for other sports like baseball and lacroose to PL schools like Gate and LC that give aid there why not convert need grants to aid if w/o add. cost. I really do not understand :(

[Seawolf97]

I agree.
I'll be glad if the PL doesn't adopt scholarships. They'll continue to stand still while the NEC move up alongside them.

I can't wait for things to shake out. I look forward to seeing the Albany-Fordham games again and this time I hope its a league game in the the new full scholarships new england/mid atlantic conference.

Well said. You can only offer a max of 63 scholarships and only so much in dollars. So it wouldnt be an arms race but a matter of how much a PL school wanted to spend on football within the limits. It would still come down to good recruiting since full scholarship money cant buy a championship.
Good luck to Fordham and I hope to see them on StonyBrooks future schedulesxthumbsupx

[aceinthehole]

Assuming Marist as an all sports member...

Against...
1. Higher operating expense and financial aid commitments. Marist currently is 270th in Division I in athletic budgets and among the bottom 15 in I-AA on football spending.
2. Perception of a PL move as a step "down" from the MAAC in other sports.
3. Football Non-competitveness. It took Fordham 12 years to climb the PL standings, Georgetown enters year nine this year with six league wins since 2001. Marist would have to expect a protracted run of losing seasons.


I don't agree with #2. Marist has won the Commisshiners Cup every year they been in the MAAC (I think);they also won it many times in the NEC. I think Marist is the best all-around athletic program in the MAAC and they have done very well there. I don't think they could come into the PL and do as well as they have done in the NEC/MAAC.

The PL is arguably a "step down" in men's hoop only. But I think the PL is much stronger than the MAAC across the board in other sports.

[UAalum72]

Not 'arguably' in basketball this year, but closer than a lot of MAAC fans think. But the PL is rated ahead of the MAAC in men's lacrosse and baseball this year.

[ngineer]

I believe football is looked at differently because it is such a huge component of the athletics budget for all schools. The cost of outfitting, staffing and capital upkeep for football dwarfs all other sports. Ninety to one hundred players to be equipped, recruiting/travel expenses, staff size,etc. That is why the schools' admininstrators are trying to hold the line against additional costs. Wrestling, while a traditional sacred cow, is also a lot cheaper to run. the other sports only give limited scholarships. I believe there is a lot of information that goes into the calculus is not well known by us and it might be good if PL held a symposium of some kind to explain to those interested in this issue why the philosophy must be maintained. As much as I would like to see us be able to recruit more easily, as would the coaches, reportedly, I am sure this issue has been looked at closely and not dismissed cavalierly.

[gophoenix]

Where would Fordham go? NEC or Big South? They could compliment Stony Brook well in the Big South and could help strengthen the Big South too.

Maybe the Patriot could pick up Campbell? Problem with Duquense and Bryant, since they are or will be NEC, won't they have 30 real scholarships offered?

[CRAZY_DANE]

If Fordham goes Big South, so should UAlbany.

[Wildcat80]

So looking down the road.......if forming a new football conference we COULD have the following:

Maine
UNH
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Fordham

I wonder how Northeastern and Hofstra would feel about being the Northern outposts in a Southern based football league when they could have so many local rivals in this other league?

Jeff i think you got it. plus one or both of those two would join. Travel costs are too high unless you go to a FBS payday game. plus local fans even students might get to see more away games. I'm sure UNH would schedule an independent Fordham too.

[colorless raider]

I don't disagree with anything being said above. Merely reporting what the discussion entailed. The PL schools (the BOTs and Presidents) don't see football as an 'end all'. They see it as a nice component of an overall academic setting, with the emphasis on spending resources on academics moreso than athletics, and hence don't see justification in such spending in lean times on what is not a core of the academic mission. That's just the way it is. Unfortunately for us football fans, we're going to have to accept being more in the Ivy model, but with lesser finances.

If this speculation is true it is all over. Wimps is all I can say.xmadx

[colorless raider]

I believe football is looked at differently because it is such a huge component of the athletics budget for all schools. The cost of outfitting, staffing and capital upkeep for football dwarfs all other sports. Ninety to one hundred players to be equipped, recruiting/travel expenses, staff size,etc. That is why the schools' admininstrators are trying to hold the line against additional costs. Wrestling, while a traditional sacred cow, is also a lot cheaper to run. the other sports only give limited scholarships. I believe there is a lot of information that goes into the calculus is not well known by us and it might be good if PL held a symposium of some kind to explain to those interested in this issue why the philosophy must be maintained. As much as I would like to see us be able to recruit more easily, as would the coaches, reportedly, I am sure this issue has been looked at closely and not dismissed cavalierly.

Are you in the administration? Yuck.

[gophoenix]

So basically, the CAA splits or the Big South gains a few teams and starts looking more like the setup of the CAA.

CAA at 14 teams is too big, NEC limit of 30 scholarships seems really limiting to schools like Fordham, Albany and Stony Brook.... I mean, possibilities are endless.

[danefan]

Will the Patriot League forfeit their auto-bid to the playoffs? If i was the NCAA and the PL basically said they're not interested in competing at the high level i would then consider giving the bid to another conference. I love Lehigh football but the elitist attitude of the PL schools does get old.

No. They would still have 6 members, the minimum for an AQ.

[gmoney55]

I don't agree with #2. Marist has won the Commisshiners Cup every year they been in the MAAC (I think);they also won it many times in the NEC. I think Marist is the best all-around athletic program in the MAAC and they have done very well there. I don't think they could come into the PL and do as well as they have done in the NEC/MAAC.

The PL is arguably a "step down" in men's hoop only. But I think the PL is much stronger than the MAAC across the board in other sports.

Agreed...and while the MAAC was better in hoops this year, it was only three years ago that Bucknell was doing the same thing that Siena is and Holy Cross was doing the same as Niagara.

Men's lacrosse is PL by a long shot.

[Seawolf97]

So basically, the CAA splits or the Big South gains a few teams and starts looking more like the setup of the CAA.

CAA at 14 teams is too big, NEC limit of 30 scholarships seems really limiting to schools like Fordham, Albany and Stony Brook.... I mean, possibilities are endless.

I agree. That conference posted by Maine Jeff really has alot of potential as an all sports conference with FCS football. There is room in the Northeast for a true Mid Major Conference in non football sports and strong FCS presence in football. Travel costs and travel time for conference games would be minimal with StonyBrook and Fordham being the southern most schools and Maine being the northernmost.
The big question is would all those schools buy into such a conference? Hopefully this will bear some fruit down the road.

[carney2]

I'm a bit surprised that Fordham has seemingly taken this "up or out" approach by themselves. A movement always has strength in numbers: if Fordham went to the PL on this with a Colgate by its side or with Lehigh or even with Georgetown (under a different scenario), suddenly the stakes get much, much higher. When Miami left the Big East, it wasn't just one school that shook the foundations, it was that three schools would be turning in notice, and the uncertainty on who they eventually were was the driver for change.

A reminder that 15 years or so ago Fordham, then a full Patriot League member in all sports, said "basketball scholarships or we are out of here." The Patriot League said "write us if you ever have any success," or words to that effect. Holy Cross then came along with the same "take it or leave it" threat, and while the league honchos ruffled thru their files looking for the old Fordham memos, Army said "if the 'saders go, we go too," fearing that the league was collapsing under them. Army was therefore the lynchpin of getting this accomplished - or probably the more accurate statement would be that the combination of Army and Holy Cross got it done.

Point being: as DFW hints, Fordham by itself may not be enough, particularly as they are an associate member for football only, and they've played this card before and their game is getting a little old.

One really has to ask if the folks in the Bronx have actually thought this through. A lot has been written about this here at AGS, but the whole reaction in Ramsland seems something akin to a 5-year old throwing his vanilla ice cream cone on the ground because he wants chocolate - and the vanilla is the only ice cream cone he will get. Exactly where are they going with their play for pay philosophy, and how will that turn out? We need look no further than their game of hoops hopscotch for a reasonable view of the future. They joined the A-10, and the Rams faithful see themselves as rightfully running with the big dogs, and would have it no other way. The big dogs - riiiight. The mangy mutts in that second class kennel have been regularly having Ram for lunch.

[PAT]

isn't it true the Fordham acquiesced on the new "AI" conditions with the understandinfg that they PL would open discussions on the Shcollie issue ?? It seems that Fordham ante'd up and then the PL declared the game over prior to dealing the hole cards.

[carney2]

isn't it true the Fordham acquiesced on the new "AI" conditions with the understandinfg that they PL would open discussions on the Shcollie issue ?? It seems that Fordham ante'd up and then the PL declared the game over prior to dealing the hole cards.

That is the story coming out of The Bronx and there is no reason to disbelieve it. Of course, with the Patriot League Code of Silence and Secrecy in effect, one has to ask if we will ever really be able to unravel this saga.

[Wildcat80]

isn't it true the Fordham acquiesced on the new "AI" conditions with the understandinfg that they PL would open discussions on the Shcollie issue ?? It seems that Fordham ante'd up and then the PL declared the game over prior to dealing the hole cards.

My guess is a majority of football coaches want the change-Lafayette coaches have said its two years away-but the AD & Prez are a different group. The question they all must address is-Do we want to remain second cousins to the Ivy OR step up and challenge the caa & socon for FCS supremacy? IMO with schollies schools like lafayette, lehigh, colgate, holy cross have a winning combo of great academics, great facilities, loyal fans, winning traditions-and could challenge anyone. What do they want to be?

[DFW HOYA]

My guess is a majority of football coaches want the change-Lafayette coaches have said its two years away-but the AD & Prez are a different group. The question they all must address is-Do we want to remain second cousins to the Ivy OR step up and challenge the caa & socon for FCS supremacy?

I think you've just answered your question. The five major PL presidents would rather have their seat at the presidential box for the Princeton game than explain to their faculty why they are competing with Appalachian State.

(Don't underestimate the behind the scenes whispers with the Ivy brethren on this one.)

[Jackman]

I agree. That conference posted by Maine Jeff really has alot of potential as an all sports conference with FCS football. There is room in the Northeast for a true Mid Major Conference in non football sports and strong FCS presence in football. Travel costs and travel time for conference games would be minimal with StonyBrook and Fordham being the southern most schools and Maine being the northernmost.
The big question is would all those schools buy into such a conference? Hopefully this will bear some fruit down the road.

0% chance UMass and URI would join in all sports. I could see URI as a football-only. UMass would still be very reluctant to join as a football-only. UMass is on record as wanting to work within the 14 member CAA. If UMass wanted a new Yankee Conference, I believe it would already have happened. Reducing travel costs in football simply isn't much of a motivation for us. We only have to get on a plane once per season in the CAA. We may choose to do so more than that, but we don't have to. That one flight to Virginia is small potatoes in the greater scheme of things. It's 1% of the football budget. Would you risk jumping out of a successful conference for a completely new situation just to conserve 1% of the budget? A single home game against Delaware that fills our stadium to 98% capacity pays for 3 of those one-per-season Virginia trips.

Nothing's stopping the rest of you from breaking away though. It makes plenty of sense for Maine, Albany, and Stony Brook, and Fordham as well if the Patriot League doesn't add scholarships. But I think UNH and URI want to stay with UMass, and Maine wants to stay with UNH, so the idea starts to fall apart if UMass isn't on board. You need to come up with a reason for UMass to want to do it. Or hope our relationship with the CAA sours.

[RichH2]

PL schollies would not preclude IL, nor should anyone expect home and homes with M.ontana or Georgia southern. Nova, JMU , W&M,Richmond that is what I would expect. I do not think those schools would offend the sensibilities of The BOt or pres of any PL school

[Wildcat80]

I agree. That conference posted by Maine Jeff really has alot of potential as an all sports conference with FCS football. There is room in the Northeast for a true Mid Major Conference in non football sports and strong FCS presence in football. Travel costs and travel time for conference games would be minimal with StonyBrook and Fordham being the southern most schools and Maine being the northernmost.
The big question is would all those schools buy into such a conference? Hopefully this will bear some fruit down the road.

The reality is budgets are tight for all FCS schools & adding a GSU & ODU increase travel costs for all. An all sports conference is probably too unwieldy to even attempt with the caa, AE, A10, BE all involved. But i feel a football realignment is coming. The more northern schools that go scholarship-Fordham-the more likely it will happen. Also UNCC is adding football which might realign the south-SoCon & Big South--also for travel costs. CAA schools in the middle-nova, del, towson-might be torn which way to go. There is a difference between a 3 hour & an 8 hour bus ride too. Another wild card is the possibility Umass or DE, or JMU try to go FBS.

[Go...gate]

I think you've just answered your question. The five major PL presidents would rather have their seat at the presidential box for the Princeton game than explain to their faculty why they are competing with Appalachian State.

(Don't underestimate the behind the scenes whispers with the Ivy brethren on this one.)

DFW HOYA, I strongly believe you have hit the nail on the head.

[Go...gate]

While in some down time out here, I had the chance to talk to some people who are closer to the athletic situation at Lehigh and the Patriot League than I, and who don't see the League changing it's stance on athletic grants in aid as opposed to pure scholarships.

The reason is what would be anticipated as opening the gates to an 'arms race' that the schools do not want to engage in--especially in the current economic situation. While theoretically, no additional money would be sought, tremendous pressure would arise to spend more to 'keep up' with others with 'cut throat' spending occuring. Under the current situation, with all member schools following the need-based formula for issuing grants in aid, everyone has to play by the same rules on extending financial aid. Take away that restriction and those schools that can will be freer to undercut competitors with lesser resources.

Therefore, the expressed attitude was 'Good Luck Rams--a couple years from now you'll be sorry and Masella will be gone'. I expect the PL will ratchet up their seeking a replacement for Fordham for the 2010 season.

I hope you are wrong, ngineer, but this certainly sounds ominous. xnonono2x

[RichH2]

I hope for a different result but I am becoming more and more sanguine about any change in aid formulas. I do not see any replacement for FU that would not be a step down either academically or athletically or both. Back to being Ivy Lite.

[ngineer]

Are you in the administration? Yuck.

Absolutely not! I have my issues with our administration, as alums do with their schools. But, I also know that this issue does not get decided arbitrarily if you know anything about the types that populate our BOT and Administration.

I think the core PL members want to remain with the grant-in-aid formula as a means of keeping everyone on the same page as to what can be offered to a particular athlete. This would prevent Colgate from offering a virtual 'full ride' to a great prospect, but who only qualifies for a half ride under the formula. Therefore all schools are limited to a range of what they can offer him.

I am not an apologist for Lehigh or the PL schools who want to maintain the status quo. I am merely providing my observations and what I believe to be the rationale of the administrators and BOTs.

[ngineer]

I think you've just answered your question. The five major PL presidents would rather have their seat at the presidential box for the Princeton game than explain to their faculty why they are competing with Appalachian State.

(Don't underestimate the behind the scenes whispers with the Ivy brethren on this one.)

I agree. I think there is a large contingent of administrators and faculty that insist on the continued 'relationship' with the Ivy League as part of the football prorams. They want a program that still appears to be emphasizing the STUDENT-athlete, as opposed to the other way around.

[Jackman]

What it appears they are emphasizing is the student-athlete's-parent's-share-of-TUITION-PAYMENTS.

[busybee14]

Ive been following these FU threads with some intrest.I can tell you that if Fordham and some others added schollys ,ALOT of talented high school players would give a much closer look to the program.Those same players are now seeking out a fine education and fantanstic football with the likes of Hofstra,JMU,Richmond,W&M,Wofford,Furman etc..........for free
I have spoken to players who have come right out and said I dont even want to look at schools that dont offer schollys.(most are from families who have a couple of bucks or are small buisness owners and would not recieve much if any aid.
I would quit all the worry about soiling the integritity of the non scholly programs,its not like you are competeing with the SEC or Pac 10 for football players.
IMO it will only help !!!

[Tribe4SF]

Ive been following these FU threads with some intrest.I can tell you that if Fordham and some others added schollys ,ALOT of talented high school players would give a much closer look to the program.Those same players are now seeking out a fine education and fantanstic football with the likes of Hofstra,JMU,Richmond,W&M,Wofford,Furman etc..........for free
I have spoken to players who have come right out and said I dont even want to look at schools that dont offer schollys.(most are from families who have a couple of bucks or are small buisness owners and would not recieve much if any aid.
I would quit all the worry about soiling the integritity of the non scholly programs,its not like you are competeing with the SEC or Pac 10 for football players.
IMO it will only help !!!

You're on the money here. I don't fully understand the AI and its "bands", but I would wager that every scholarship player at W&M would qualify under that system, and the same is probably true at Richmond, Wofford and Furman.

I would also be interested to know what the representation of minorities is on PL football rosters. I've long contended to detractors of scholarship football at W&M that the program has led the institution in creating a diverse student body. The ratio of minorities on our roster is around 35%, far exceeding the general student population. Many of these young men would never have considered W&M were it not for scholarship football. If the grant-in-aid approach has had a lesser effect, PL leaders should see scholarshi[p football as an opportunity to increase diversity.

[henfan]

The reality is budgets are tight for all FCS schools & adding a GSU & ODU increase travel costs for all.

How so if NE schools would presumably only be traveling to Norfolk or Atlanta each once every 7 years?

If the Cats opted for a smaller conference like the one mentioned here, they'd end up scrounging for more OOC. You really think the many of those OOC games are going to involve series that won't require UNH boarding a plane? Ask Marty Scarano how easy it is for UNH to get local home-home OOC series.

As I said with UMass, if UNH's AD were ever in such a budget crunch, it would likely concern itself less with occaisional FB flights and more about flying non-rev Olympic sport teams to Baltimore and elsewhere every single year. There's more money to be saved with Olympic sport teams than with FB.

[Franks Tanks]

You're on the money here. I don't fully understand the AI and its "bands", but I would wager that every scholarship player at W&M would qualify under that system, and the same is probably true at Richmond, Wofford and Furman.

I would also be interested to know what the representation of minorities is on PL football rosters. I've long contended to detractors of scholarship football at W&M that the program has led the institution in creating a diverse student body. The ratio of minorities on our roster is around 35%, far exceeding the general student population. Many of these young men would never have considered W&M were it not for scholarship football. If the grant-in-aid approach has had a lesser effect, PL leaders should see scholarshi[p football as an opportunity to increase diversity.

I cant speak for every PL school, but the FB teams at Lehigh and Lafayette are quite diverse. The % of minorities on each team is much higher than the number of minorities in the general student population.

I agree that William & Mary and Richmond recruits very good students, but I dont think you realize how restrictive the AI banding is. You will disgaree because you think you know everything but I have personal experience here. I know two Gentlemen-- one from my high school and one one was the young brother of a friend-- who played football at William & Mary within the last 5 years. Both kids did very well in school and on the field at William & Mary, but given their SAT scores they would have had a lot of difficulty with the AI banfing of the PL. Both kids got just under an 1100 on the SAT but had solid high school stats. It may have been difficult for these kids to get into a PL school with the super strict banding crap that league schools must follow.

[Husky Alum]

So looking down the road.......if forming a new football conference we COULD have the following:

Maine
UNH
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Fordham

I wonder how Northeastern and Hofstra would feel about being the Northern outposts in a Southern based football league when they could have so many local rivals in this other league?

Who sponsors this conference?

Surely it won't be the America East - who could easily have football AND hockey under it's banner if not for gross negligence/mismanagement by Patrick "Hire me and you'll have America East football and hockey" Nero.

A couple of other points..

1. Northeastern and Hofstra are already the Northern outposts in a southern based all sports league. We've heard this broken record from you before, Jeff.

2. NU would still continue to maintain its rivalries with UNH, UMass and URI/Maine if this "new league" were to form. We'd both need OOC's, and NU's an inexpensive OOC.

3. Why would UMass and UNH give up their status in the CAA for membership in the New Conference

4. Autobid for the new conference?

5. What kind of buy out does SBU have from the Big South? Unless the Commissioner of the Big South is dumber than Pat Nero, SBU signed a deal with a financial penalty for leaving.

6. Where do you find 5 OOC's a year for this group? There's only so many OOC's that the CAA can accomodate, and i'm sure that UNH and UMass will be all over the UD's and W&M's of the world for games.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So much ground to cover, and only one post to do it.


The PL probably has three or four realistic replacements within its footprint as associate members (Marist, Bryant, maybe Duquesne, probably not Davidson) and as long as it has the autobid, it will tolerate another underfunded program in the standings (e.g., Georgetown).

That having been said, I'm a bit surprised that Fordham has seemingly taken this "up or out" approach by themselves. A movement always has strength in numbers: if Fordham went to the PL on this with a Colgate by its side or with Lehigh or even with Georgetown (under a different scenario), suddenly the stakes get much, much higher. When Miami left the Big East, it wasn't just one school that shook the foundations, it was that three schools would be turning in notice, and the uncertainty on who they eventually were was the driver for change.

As was pointed out too by carney, Holy Cross' threat to leave the PL was also backed up my Army and Navy's threat to disband the league over basketball scholarships. Holy Cross never really "went it alone" the way Fordham is proposing here.

I've always been a big advocate of Marist joining the PL, but definitely in all sports, not just football. Loyola (MD) is another school that could move to the PL and help create a very, very good lacrosse conference - and maybe start football. But the sands, IMO, have shifted, as they often do. The lure of having Bucknell giving fits to NCAA tournament teams in men's basketball has been shifted to Siena. Why would Loyola - and, more importantly, Marist - now wish to lose a rivalry with a semi-local team in order to join the Patriot League? There are still reasons to join the PL, but the argument that MAAC basketball is dying and PL basketball is on the rise is one you can't raise anymore.


Marist, is still likely the only FB-affilate option for the PL. If the Red Foxes can pony up some $$$ for grants, they would be a decent option fit to fill your gap.

Bryant accepted full membership in the NEC and while I'm sure they would have preferred full membership in the PL, that offer wasn't made. The NEC will not let Bryant play football in the PL, period. So unless, a full membership offer is coming to Bryant (and they buy out of their agreement with the NEC), that isn't happening.

Duquesne is only a FB-only member of the NEC, so they could more easily leave for PL football, but I have to ask - why would they now? Presuming the were interested in PL football after the MAAC collapased, why didn't they seal the deal with the PL before taking the NEC offer? With an AQ in the NEC and full scholarship flexibility (no minimums, up to 40 max) what does the PL offer the Dukes but AI restrictions and a grant-in-aid status?

If Fordham leaves, the PL will not have pick of the litter, as some may think.

Agreed on Fordham. If they leave, clearly their best option is the BSC with league trips to Conway, SC, Boiling Springs, NC, Charleston, SC, Lynchburg, VA or Lexington, VA. The CAA, with problems as it is with too many members, won't be lining up to take another A-10 affiliate, and the NEC would be cross-purposes with Fordham's stated goal of 63 scholarships.

Fordham will pay more for scholarships and pay more more for travel for league games. And they might not even get the same caliber of play in the Patriot League. All this, and they'll get "synergy" with schools with which they have extremely little in common.

I wouldn't be so quick to put Bryant squarely in the NEC. Yes, it would require a buyout of their contract with the NEC to join the PL, but I think they would get an all-sports membership out of the deal, no question. Duquesne has long been considered for the PL as an affiliate but I don't think they're leaving the NEC at all. They appear to be embracing scholarship football at the NEC level.


A reminder that 15 years or so ago Fordham, then a full Patriot League member in all sports, said "basketball scholarships or we are out of here." The Patriot League said "write us if you ever have any success," or words to that effect. Holy Cross then came along with the same "take it or leave it" threat, and while the league honchos ruffled thru their files looking for the old Fordham memos, Army said "if the 'saders go, we go too," fearing that the league was collapsing under them. Army was therefore the lynchpin of getting this accomplished - or probably the more accurate statement would be that the combination of Army and Holy Cross got it done.

Point being: as DFW hints, Fordham by itself may not be enough, particularly as they are an associate member for football only, and they've played this card before and their game is getting a little old.

One really has to ask if the folks in the Bronx have actually thought this through. A lot has been written about this here at AGS, but the whole reaction in Ramsland seems something akin to a 5-year old throwing his vanilla ice cream cone on the ground because he wants chocolate - and the vanilla is the only ice cream cone he will get. Exactly where are they going with their play for pay philosophy, and how will that turn out? We need look no further than their game of hoops hopscotch for a reasonable view of the future. They joined the A-10, and the Rams faithful see themselves as rightfully running with the big dogs, and would have it no other way. The big dogs - riiiight. The mangy mutts in that second class kennel have been regularly having Ram for lunch.

After reading this post, I get to wondering: what if Fordham completely backtracked on their "threat", and accepted the vanilla ice cream? There has been a lot of speculation and chest-thumping about some mythical "new Yankee" conference with (chuckle) UMass, UAlbany and UNH leading the charge, but there's defnitely the whiff of bong smoke in the air when I read those posts. If such a conference were in existence, then Fordham's threat and jump would make lots of sense. But the "new Yankee" conference is still far away from being a reality and requires some Hercluean logic that UMass and a cabal of other northern teams have been plotting in secret with NEC teams to lose their autobids and their conference strength in order to build a new football-only conference. And the A-10 or America East sponsoring such a conference requires even more "chemical refreshment" to picture.

That means it's either a trip to the NEC/Pioneer and cut scholarship spending, or go to the BSC and have conference games in Boiling Springs, NC for Fordham. This is not a good hand for them.

[Tribe4SF]

I cant speak for every PL school, but the FB teams at Lehigh and Lafayette are quite diverse. The % of minorities on each team is much higher than the number of minorities in the general student population.

I agree that William & Mary and Richmond recruits very good students, but I dont think you realize how restrictive the AI banding is. You will disgaree because you think you know everything but I have personal experience here. I know two Gentlemen-- one from my high school and one one was the young brother of a friend-- who played football at William & Mary within the last 5 years. Both kids did very well in school and on the field at William & Mary, but given their SAT scores they would have had a lot of difficulty with the AI banfing of the PL. Both kids got just under an 1100 on the SAT but had solid high school stats. It may have been difficult for these kids to get into a PL school with the super strict banding crap that league schools must follow.

As I said, I don't understand the AI banding, so I clearly don't "know everything".xrolleyesx So is 1100 an absolute bottom line for the AI? Are the stats you cite for those two clearly below the acceptable level for PL schools? They would have been near the lower limit for W&M, and their "solid high school stats" would have made the difference.

If your telling me that neither of those young men would have been admitted to a PL school then I would lose my wager.

Is the AI more restrictive than criteria for general admission? Looking at average SAT scores for PL schools vs. W&M...

W&M 1317

Colgate 1321
Bucknell 1282
Lehigh 1274
Lafayette 1273
Holy Cross 1258
Fordham 1170
Couldn't find Georgetown, but I'm pretty sure it's the highest of these.

http://www.ophs.opusd.k12.ca.us/average_sat_act_scores.htm

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As I said, I don't understand the AI banding, so I clearly don't "know everything".xrolleyesx So is 1100 an absolute bottom line for the AI? Are the stats you cite for those two clearly below the acceptable level for PL schools? They would have been near the lower limit for W&M, and their "solid high school stats" would have made the difference.

If your telling me that neither of those young men would have been admitted to a PL school then I would lose my wager.

Is the AI more restrictive than criteria for general admission? Looking at average SAT scores for PL schools vs. W&M...

W&M 1317

Colgate 1321
Bucknell 1282
Lehigh 1274
Lafayette 1273
Holy Cross 1258
Fordham 1170
Couldn't find Georgetown, but I'm pretty sure it's the highest of these.

http://www.ophs.opusd.k12.ca.us/average_sat_act_scores.htm

G'Town's is, I believe, in the 1450-1480 range.

For Fordham, the case has been presented that their AI for football is more restrictive than their incoming class. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but what is clear is that the AI changes the League made to move to bands affected Fordham more than anyone else.

The PL now has a league-wide "floor" under which no PL school can recruit. Before, the PL had no hard floor, so as long as your class average was under one standard deviation under the AI of the rest of your incoming class, you were OK.

[Franks Tanks]

As I said, I don't understand the AI banding, so I clearly don't "know everything".xrolleyesx So is 1100 an absolute bottom line for the AI? Are the stats you cite for those two clearly below the acceptable level for PL schools? They would have been near the lower limit for W&M, and their "solid high school stats" would have made the difference.

If your telling me that neither of those young men would have been admitted to a PL school then I would lose my wager.

Is the AI more restrictive than criteria for general admission? Looking at average SAT scores for PL schools vs. W&M...

W&M 1317

Colgate 1321
Bucknell 1282
Lehigh 1274
Lafayette 1273
Holy Cross 1258
Fordham 1170
Couldn't find Georgetown, but I'm pretty sure it's the highest of these.

http://www.ophs.opusd.k12.ca.us/average_sat_act_scores.htm



Admissions for regular students and for athletes are two different things. Yes, the overall schools admission stats play a very large role in athletic admissions but as we know that doesnt necessarily correlate to athletic admissions.

1.) Those young men would have had difficulty getting into most PL schools as athletes with a sub 1100 Sat.

2.) No the AI is not more restrictive than general admission-- that doesnt even make sense. But a league wide AI does not allow for any wiggle room, as each recruit must meet specific criteria. I understand William & Mary's admission stats are high, but the fact that they have no league wide AI requirements means that William & Mary's admissions office has more flexibility to consider lids on a one off basis. Based on your grad rates that obviously do a great job letting kids in who can and will graduate.

Let me say this-- when I went to Lafayette a decade ago we didnt have one kid on the team with an SAT below 1100. I know two kids who went to William & MAry with an SAT below 1100-- draw your own conclusions.


Overall I am not saying that William & mary takes unqualified kids by any means, just that you have a little flexibility.

[Tribe4SF]

G'Town's is, I believe, in the 1450-1480 range.

For Fordham, the case has been presented that their AI for football is more restrictive than their incoming class. I'm not sure how accurate that is, but what is clear is that the AI changes the League made to move to bands affected Fordham more than anyone else.

The PL now has a league-wide "floor" under which no PL school can recruit. Before, the PL had no hard floor, so as long as your class average was under one standard deviation under the AI of the rest of your incoming class, you were OK.

So what is the "floor"? Or does anyone know?

[Franks Tanks]

So what is the "floor"? Or does anyone know?

The floor can change by school as it is specific to each schools stats. Having a hard floor does create a lot of issues. Many kids get rejected because of the hard floor, when they would have went on and done very well in school.

Personally my admissions stats were probably a little on the low side for athletes and among to bottom of my class at Lafayette overall. However my final GPA was well above average at graduation without studying all that hard.

The AI sucks flat out.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/11/sundays-words-ai.html


The league-wide AI floor is 168. Under that number, you cannot gain admittance to a Patriot League school. From the perfect AI score of 200 down to 168, your distribution will be fanned out in be four "bands", or AI ranges, determined by the standard deviation of your incoming class.

Without making your hair hurt, it's different than the Ivy League computation. But it involves 50% SAT/standardized tests and 50% GPA. Just calling someone an "1100 SAT kid" doesn't tell the whole story, though I use that as shorthand a lot in my own descriptions of the AI. But overall I agree that a kid with an 1100 SAT would most likely need a pretty good GPA to balance things out.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The floor can change by school as it is specific to each schools stats. Having a hard floor does create a lot of issues. Many kids get rejected because of the hard floor, when they would have went on and done very well in school.

That's not true anymore. There's a hard floor for the league now set at 168.

[FUrams7]

im extremely happy Fordham has decided to go full scholly. as an alum and grid supporter, I understand not having a conference affliation for football may be troubling or cause for concern (to outsiders).. but this allows us to be flexible going forward and is the best move for our program at this time. we can recruit better student athletes at no additonal cost to the school. in addition 1A's will play us because we meet the 56.5/2yr avg of scholly players.

we have UConn scheduled 2011, Army 2014,15. hearing Rutgers, Bowling Green (Clawson HC), Temple (A-10), Duke as possible 1A opponents for the 12, 13 seasons. (1 per yr)..

there will be no shortage of 1aa opponents either. sure they wont be knocking down our door but these schools definitely willing to bang helmets with us .. Columbia, Yale, Hofstra, Stony Brook, URI, UMass, Bryant, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Richmond, Villanova, UNH, Maine

is a little sad the PL schools wont be our opponents (hatred rivals) :) as was the case when i played.. but honestly think Fordham is 100% correct in going scholly. more bang for the buck.

[Tribe4SF]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/11/sundays-words-ai.html



Without making your hair hurt, it's different than the Ivy League computation. But it involves 50% SAT/standardized tests and 50% GPA. Just calling someone an "1100 SAT kid" doesn't tell the whole story, though I use that as shorthand a lot in my own descriptions of the AI. But overall I agree that a kid with an 1100 SAT would most likely need a pretty good GPA to balance things out.

Go ahead and make my hair hurt! What consitutes the 200, and 168? Obviously the SAT and GPA translate to some equivalent point system. For example, can you tell me a hypothetical SAT and GPA that would about equal 168? Does a 1600 Sat and 4.0 GPA equal 200?

[Husky Alum]

I haven't dealt with the AI in a while, but my High School History teacher was the recruiting coordinator for the Yale Baseball team, and, he told me that the AI was a formula based on 3 things - SAT scores, "Academic Ranking" and the performance on the old "Achievement Tests" - I thnk that's now the SAT II's.

You took the SAT score and divided by 20.

You took the three highest Achievement tests and divided by 30

And then there was the mysterious Academic Ranking.

So, for example -

1400 on SAT's = 70

Achievements, assume 600, 650, 670 = 64

My "academic ranking" in HS equated to a 65

That gives you a 199.

When I was a senior in high school, for football, you needed like 178 to get into any of the ivies for football without an issue.

I know someone who got into Yale with a 172, and someone who got into Cornell with a 165, and Penn with a 163.

Mind you this was based on what a Yale baseball coach told me - and while I have no reason to assume he was lying, the Columbia football coach told me something very similar.

[Franks Tanks]

I haven't dealt with the AI in a while, but my High School History teacher was the recruiting coordinator for the Yale Baseball team, and, he told me that the AI was a formula based on 3 things - SAT scores, "Academic Ranking" and the performance on the old "Achievement Tests" - I thnk that's now the SAT II's.

You took the SAT score and divided by 20.

You took the three highest Achievement tests and divided by 30

And then there was the mysterious Academic Ranking.

So, for example -

1400 on SAT's = 70

Achievements, assume 600, 650, 670 = 64

My "academic ranking" in HS equated to a 65

That gives you a 199.

When I was a senior in high school, for football, you needed like 178 to get into any of the ivies for football without an issue.

I know someone who got into Yale with a 172, and someone who got into Cornell with a 165, and Penn with a 163.

Mind you this was based on what a Yale baseball coach told me - and while I have no reason to assume he was lying, the Columbia football coach told me something very similar.

What you said is correct. Also the banding allows a certain number of kids with certain scores to be recruited. A floor number does exist I believe but I dont know what that is. For example Penn may have been allowed to take like 2 or 3 kids with an AI of 160-165 that particular year-- but thats it. They could take as many kids as they want above a certain AI number.

[Cobblestone]

So looking down the road.......if forming a new football conference we COULD have the following:

Maine
UNH
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Fordham

I wonder how Northeastern and Hofstra would feel about being the Northern outposts in a Southern based football league when they could have so many local rivals in this other league?

Looks doable and sounds logical. I think it certainly makes sense for traveling purposes. I'm sure you could add Hofstra and Northeastern to that league as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Go ahead and make my hair hurt! What consitutes the 200, and 168? Obviously the SAT and GPA translate to some equivalent point system. For example, can you tell me a hypothetical SAT and GPA that would about equal 168? Does a 1600 Sat and 4.0 GPA equal 200?

Let me emphasize again the AI for the Patriot League and the Ivy league are NOT the same and are NOT the same scale. The Ivy League AI uses SAT I and II scores and computes class rank differently.

For the sake of argument, I'll use the new SAT (reading + math + writing) for my computation, so it's based on a maximum score of 2400 (rather than the old computation of reading + math with a maximum of 1600). A 2400 SAT and 4.0 GPA equals 200 for the PL's AI calculation.

By my calculation, a kid with an 1830 SAT combined, with a unadjusted 3.2 GPA, would be at about the floor of the league. Now, a kid with a higher GPA could get away with a lower SAT, or vice versa. I think an 1830 ends up as a 1180-1200 in the old system, but I'm not certain about that.

I think what tends to happen is that kids have higher GPAs than their SATs, (though I have zero data to back this up). So you might get kids with (say) a 1760 SAT but have a 3.6.

[henfan]

Looks doable and sounds logical. I think it certainly makes sense for traveling purposes. I'm sure you could add Hofstra and Northeastern to that league as well.

Outside of geography, there's little logic to that grouping at all. Are you really sure that HU & NU would give up their respective Olympic sport membership in the CAA just to play a couple of conference FB games closer to home each season... in a less competitive league, nonetheless? What gives you that idea? You really think this is a plan supported by UMass or UNH?

[mainejeff]

Looks doable and sounds logical. I think it certainly makes sense for traveling purposes. I'm sure you could add Hofstra and Northeastern to that league as well.

Not according to their fans.

The CAA has been very good for Hofstra and Northeastern. Hofstra softball is now very good (although they were in America East as well) and Northeastern now draws 2,000 people per game instead of 1,200 when they were in America East.

[mainejeff]

Outside of geography, there's little logic to that grouping at all. Are you really sure that HU & NU would give up their respective Olympic sport membership in the CAA just to play a couple of conference FB games closer to home each season... in a less competitive league, nonetheless? What gives you that idea? You really think this is a plan supported by UMass or UNH?

Northeastern used to have a perennial Top 10 program in field hockey in America East and go to the NCAA tourney every year. How have they done in the CAA? How many times have the Hofstra and Northeastern Olympic sports programs been to the NCAA tourney during their stay in the CAA? How much money are they spending on travel?

[Husky Alum]

Northeastern used to have a perennial Top 10 program in field hockey in America East and go to the NCAA tourney every year. How have they done in the CAA? How many times have the Hofstra and Northeastern Olympic sports programs been to the NCAA tourney during their stay in the CAA? How much money are they spending on travel?

Believe it or not, our Field Hockey team's problems aren't related to the move to the CAA directly.

We had a couple of bad recruiting classes, and we've lost games to America East teams during that timeframe, so the slipping of the program is more coincidental than anything.

We're thrilled with the move to the CAA. The costs are in line with what we expected - absent the spike in oil prices in early 2008. Now that oil prices are in line with 2007 and prior, we're not crying as much.

Our progress in basketball, baseball, volleyball and track are very good.

Football sucks and will likely in the near term (unless we get some support from the city building a new facility), but that has nothing to do with the move to the CAA.

We just didn't see the America East as being progressive or dynamic - and nothing that's happened in the AE since we left has changed our mind. I challenge you to show me how the AE has been progressive or dynamic. Seems to me that all I've seen lately from the AE has been negative (Binghamton, cough cough, Binghamton)

[Fordham]

As was pointed out too by carney, Holy Cross' threat to leave the PL was also backed up my Army and Navy's threat to disband the league over basketball scholarships. Holy Cross never really "went it alone" the way Fordham is proposing here.
I guess this could then be called the cost of leadership.


greed on Fordham. If they leave, clearly their best option is the BSC with league trips to Conway, SC, Boiling Springs, NC, Charleston, SC, Lynchburg, VA or Lexington, VA. The CAA, with problems as it is with too many members, won't be lining up to take another A-10 affiliate, and the NEC would be cross-purposes with Fordham's stated goal of 63 scholarships.

Fordham will pay more for scholarships and pay more more for travel for league games. And they might not even get the same caliber of play in the Patriot League. All this, and they'll get "synergy" with schools with which they have extremely little in common.

1. Where has Fordham ever stated that we're going to 63 scholarships? The only feedback I've seen posted here is exactly what Masella stated at our meeting - we fund 58 equivalencies today and we'll fund 58 scholarships tomorrow - no increase in funding.

2. If you check out the individual PL school boards you'll see a similar mischaracterization of the move to schollies. The refrain typically starts with "in this economy there is NO WAY our school is going to spend that much more on football". Tell me how moving from 58 equivalencies to 58 scholarships is going to cost the institution money? Further, see #4 below. So if you add the FBS payout and factor in the ability to use our budget as we see fit (i.e. - not on need-based aid only), there is actually a strong financial incentive to make this switch.

3. Travel is a good reason why I think you'll see us stay independent. You'll see a strong push for us to get Hofstra, Stony Brook & Wagner on the schedule which would mean 3 non-overnight trips overall (3 more than we typically have). Further, we travel to DC every other year and we played out in Pittsburgh and Ohio the past few seasons. There's so many mid-Atlantic/Northeast FCS schools in that same footprint that I don't think we're going to have a problem.

4. If it's a financial argument you'd make against us you also have to calculate the value of the FBS game payout we'll be getting. Army & UCONN already on future schedules. Almost had Rutgers this past year. Even if we went to the Big South, a FBS payout could easily help alleviate those travel costs.


After reading this post, I get to wondering: what if Fordham completely backtracked on their "threat", and accepted the vanilla ice cream? There has been a lot of speculation and chest-thumping about some mythical "new Yankee" conference with (chuckle) UMass, UAlbany and UNH leading the charge, but there's defnitely the whiff of bong smoke in the air when I read those posts. If such a conference were in existence, then Fordham's threat and jump would make lots of sense. But the "new Yankee" conference is still far away from being a reality and requires some Hercluean logic that UMass and a cabal of other northern teams have been plotting in secret with NEC teams to lose their autobids and their conference strength in order to build a new football-only conference. And the A-10 or America East sponsoring such a conference requires even more "chemical refreshment" to picture.

That means it's either a trip to the NEC/Pioneer and cut scholarship spending, or go to the BSC and have conference games in Boiling Springs, NC for Fordham. This is not a good hand for them.
First off, with our strong relationships with G-town and HC, I wouldn't be stunned if we balked if our bluff is called. I'm actually surprised that we went this far given my perception that we were tied at the hip with those two prior to this. I have heard absolutely nothing to indicate this but it really would be a shame if the PL would say no to scholarships based on nothing more than how the issue was brought up.

I disagree strongly that the two that you state are our only options. Overall, if the Big South wants us we may end up there and it seems like a great spot to be imo as either a temporary move or possible longer-term one if they decide to really try to expand in the North(east) ... but I think you're much more likely to see us go independent for 2 - 3 years and wait until things shake out a bit. Go back to some posts here from 2 - 3 years ago and in addition to the PL fans still lamenting about the need to go full scholarship you would have had much, much different topics when it came to the NEC, PFL and CAA. I have no idea how things are going to play out but I'd argue that smart money is on changes occuring that will make things look much different than today. There will certainly be opportunity in whatever changes come about.

Rather than reading this as some adolescent fit, I'd argue it's more the simple point that a PL with a league-wide AI, need-based aid and NO scholarships is a worse option for us than anything discussed above. If you add in that we were promised they would be implemented following the AI implementation AND that there is no additional cost required to make the move AND the PL already has scholarships in other sports and therefore can't be "philosophically" opposed to moving football to scholarship, then I think it's not only a completely rational move but a just one.

[Go...gate]

I guess this could then be called the cost of leadership.



1. Where has Fordham ever stated that we're going to 63 scholarships? The only feedback I've seen posted here is exactly what Masella stated at our meeting - we fund 58 equivalencies today and we'll fund 58 scholarships tomorrow - no increase in funding.

2. If you check out the individual PL school boards you'll see a similar mischaracterization of the move to schollies. The refrain typically starts with "in this economy there is NO WAY our school is going to spend that much more on football". Tell me how moving from 58 equivalencies to 58 scholarships is going to cost the institution money? Further, see #4 below. So if you add the FBS payout and factor in the ability to use our budget as we see fit (i.e. - not on need-based aid only), there is actually a strong financial incentive to make this switch.

3. Travel is a good reason why I think you'll see us stay independent. You'll see a strong push for us to get Hofstra, Stony Brook & Wagner on the schedule which would mean 3 non-overnight trips overall (3 more than we typically have). Further, we travel to DC every other year and we played out in Pittsburgh and Ohio the past few seasons. There's so many mid-Atlantic/Northeast FCS schools in that same footprint that I don't think we're going to have a problem.

4. If it's a financial argument you'd make against us you also have to calculate the value of the FBS game payout we'll be getting. Army & UCONN already on future schedules. Almost had Rutgers this past year. Even if we went to the Big South, a FBS payout could easily help alleviate those travel costs.


First off, with our strong relationships with G-town and HC, I wouldn't be stunned if we balked if our bluff is called. I'm actually surprised that we went this far given my perception that we were tied at the hip with those two prior to this. I have heard absolutely nothing to indicate this but it really would be a shame if the PL would say no to scholarships based on nothing more than how the issue was brought up.

I disagree strongly that the two that you state are our only options. Overall, if the Big South wants us we may end up there and it seems like a great spot to be imo as either a temporary move or possible longer-term one if they decide to really try to expand in the North(east) ... but I think you're much more likely to see us go independent for 2 - 3 years and wait until things shake out a bit. Go back to some posts here from 2 - 3 years ago and in addition to the PL fans still lamenting about the need to go full scholarship you would have had much, much different topics when it came to the NEC, PFL and CAA. I have no idea how things are going to play out but I'd argue that smart money is on changes occuring that will make things look much different than today. There will certainly be opportunity in whatever changes come about.

Rather than reading this as some adolescent fit, I'd argue it's more the simple point that a PL with a league-wide AI, need-based aid and NO scholarships is a worse option for us than anything discussed above. If you add in that we were promised they would be implemented following the AI implementation AND that there is no additional cost required to make the move AND the PL already has scholarships in other sports and therefore can't be "philosophically" opposed to moving football to scholarship, then I think it's not only a completely rational move but a just one.

This sole consideration is probably a lot more important than any of us realize. I believe cost-cutting will become widespread as we go forward in these difficult time. It is expensive to transport, house and feed a football team.

[henfan]

How many times have the Hofstra and Northeastern Olympic sports programs been to the NCAA tourney during their stay in the CAA? How much money are they spending on travel?

I'm sure whatever the answers are you would find them insufficient. Once again, there's absolutely no indication that HU or NU are dissatisfied in the CAA or that they appear the least bit interested in seeking membership elsewhere, unless you believe that the opinions of a couple of message board fans qualify as serious institutional indicators. xsmhx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Where has Fordham ever stated that we're going to 63 scholarships? The only feedback I've seen posted here is exactly what Masella stated at our meeting - we fund 58 equivalencies today and we'll fund 58 scholarships tomorrow - no increase in funding.

If you want money games on a regular basis, you need to be able to say to a prospective opponent that you are going to be well over the 56 1/2 limit over a four-year span. 58 simply doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. If two full "scholly" athletes drop football, you're all of a sudden at 56. An NCAA sanction can limit scholarships over the course of a few years. If your stated goal is playing "money games", IMO you're saying you're going to pursue 63.


If you check out the individual PL school boards you'll see a similar mischaracterization of the move to schollies. The refrain typically starts with "in this economy there is NO WAY our school is going to spend that much more on football".

For Fordham this is clearly not the case. But for schools not already at 58 it will mean spending more on football (and potentially Title IX equivalent scholarships). Think Bucknell and Georgetown.


If it's a financial argument you'd make against us you also have to calculate the value of the FBS game payout we'll be getting. Army & UCONN already on future schedules. Almost had Rutgers this past year. Even if we went to the Big South, a FBS payout could easily help alleviate those travel costs.

True. This is one big reason why I think the PL should go scholly. One "money game" a year would really be great for the League IMO.


First off, with our strong relationships with G-town and HC, I wouldn't be stunned if we balked if our bluff is called. I'm actually surprised that we went this far given my perception that we were tied at the hip with those two prior to this. I have heard absolutely nothing to indicate this but it really would be a shame if the PL would say no to scholarships based on nothing more than how the issue was brought up.

Indy is also a potential option for Fordham, but it's probably the worst of the options. Stony Brook decided to go it alone for a year or two, but they quickly figured out the BSC was better than no conference. And Iona decided it wasn't worth it. Neither SBU or IC is like Fordham, but it does show the perils of being an independent.


Rather than reading this as some adolescent fit, I'd argue it's more the simple point that a PL with a league-wide AI, need-based aid and NO scholarships is a worse option for us than anything discussed above. If you add in that we were promised they would be implemented following the AI implementation AND that there is no additional cost required to make the move AND the PL already has scholarships in other sports and therefore can't be "philosophically" opposed to moving football to scholarship, then I think it's not only a completely rational move but a just one.

The argument for scholarships has great merit independent of the specific case of Fordham. Why aid-discriminate against football players when other athletes get this aid? If it's not afoul of Title IX, why is it a problem? Furthermore, why deny football athletes the same benefits that teams in other sports enjoy - the occasional trip to Washington to play the Huskies, for example?

But the way it was handled by Fordham certainly hasn't made them any friends in high places. And it's clear - threads like this one nonwithstanding - that the powers that be would like nothing better than to see discussion on this topic simply go away.

The problem is I don't think it is going to go away. No matter what happens, Fordham's move has put this discussion front and center, and it's not going away, whatever anybody says. Leave or stay, fans of PL scholarships will have Fordham to thank.

[mainejeff]

I'm sure whatever the answers are you would find them insufficient. Once again, there's absolutely no indication that HU or NU are dissatisfied in the CAA or that they appear the least bit interested in seeking membership elsewhere, unless you believe that the opinions of a couple of message board fans qualify as serious institutional indicators. xsmhx

I agree with you!........I just don't agree with people saying that the move to the CAA has made the former AE members sports programs so much better. If fans just said that the academic profile of the league.....or geography......or leadership have been good reasons for the move........that I can understand. Just don't tell me that the CAA has miraculously lifted these athletic programs to new levels of success.

[Wildcat80]

The reality is budgets are tight for all FCS schools & adding a GSU & ODU increase travel costs for all. An all sports conference is prob ably too unwieldy to even attempt with the caa, AE, A10, BE all involved. But i feel a football realignment is coming. The more northern schools that go scholarship-Fordham-the more likely it will happen. Also UNCC is adding football which might realign the south-SoCon & Big South--also for travel costs. CAA schools in the middle-nova, del, towson-might be torn which way to go. There is a difference between a 3 hour & an 8 hour bus ride too. Another wild card is the possibility Umass or DE, or JMU try to go FBS.

The Big South is studying ways to lower travel costs. More Northeast teams goes against this as it would for any geographic expansion. The more teams in the Northeast that go scholarship the more options everyone has in or out of conference. The level of play will rise too. And travel time/costs should decrease. All would be good for Northeast football.

[Libertine]

The Big South is studying ways to lower travel costs.

I don't know where you got that. Obviously, every team is looking for the best way to manage their budgets but, thus far, there is no concerted effort on the part of the conference to specifically cut down on team travel costs.

[Libertine]

The Big South is studying ways to lower travel costs.

More than anything else, the Big South is studying ways to raise its profile. Increased travel costs would be an easy trade-off against adding a conference member in the country's largest media market.

[Fordham]

If you want money games on a regular basis, you need to be able to say to a prospective opponent that you are going to be well over the 56 1/2 limit over a four-year span. 58 simply doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room. If two full "scholly" athletes drop football, you're all of a sudden at 56. An NCAA sanction can limit scholarships over the course of a few years. If your stated goal is playing "money games", IMO you're saying you're going to pursue 63.
First of all, you started this part by arguing that Fordham had a stated goal of going to 63 scholarships which is simply not the case. I was thinking that to say something so unequivocally you would have actually been told that directly by someone from our program but since you're argument is changing here, I'm assuming that's not the case.

Now you're arguing that we're likely to get there to hedge aginst not being able to be a counter? Please walk me through exactly how that would work. These schedules are made years in advance. Are you saying that the minute that two of the kids who are getting full rides drop football that we'll up getting a call from the UCONN AD saying that we got dropped from their schedule? Seems absurd to me. We have a budget for 58 kids and I would assume that if two drop off we would do what they do in pretty much every other sport which is to offer that aid to a walk-on or kids getting partial aid and allow them to have more for this year and then spend the $$ on some other kids next year.

It's just very odd to me that you're going to lengths to make this appear to be something other than what it is. There is no great financial burden we are undertaking to make this move. We are simply converting 58 equivalencies to 58 scholarships. We get to use our millions on recruiting from the entire pool of potential student-athletes instead of just at the margins with the really poor or really rich kids. In these financial times, that is a much more responsible way to spend rather than having a huge budget but then limiting yourself in how you can spend it.

What's really crazy in all of this is that it really should result in getting a recruit who is better on the academic side as well. For schools the size of Lafayette, Colgate and HC that can actually have an effect on overall rankings.


For Fordham this is clearly not the case. But for schools not already at 58 it will mean spending more on football (and potentially Title IX equivalent scholarships). Think Bucknell and GeorgetownNo matter what the school spends on equivalencies, they will be able to spend it more effectively with scholarships than they could w/need-based aid. That right there is enough of a benefit to make the switch.

Next, they will now have the ability to make a decision on whether or not it's worth it to increase the # of scholarships they give so they could be a counter. There currently is no chance for a PL school to play one of these games and be a counter but moving to scholarships would at least provide for the possibility for it to occur ... and, if the payout is right, could actually cover the cost (plus some) of the additional scholarships. How is that a bad deal for any PL school?



Indy is also a potential option for Fordham, but it's probably the worst of the options. Stony Brook decided to go it alone for a year or two, but they quickly figured out the BSC was better than no conference. And Iona decided it wasn't worth it. Neither SBU or IC is like Fordham, but it does show the perils of being an independent. I disagree. While not as optimal as having a conference spot already in place I don't see going independent as nearly as big a deal, as long as it's only for the short term (2 - 3 years). Iona is a ridiculous comparison imo and shouldn't be referenced. That leaves you with a sample size of 1 for schools that you say couldn't cut it as an independent.




The argument for scholarships has great merit independent of the specific case of Fordham. Why aid-discriminate against football players when other athletes get this aid? If it's not afoul of Title IX, why is it a problem? Furthermore, why deny football athletes the same benefits that teams in other sports enjoy - the occasional trip to Washington to play the Huskies, for example?

But the way it was handled by Fordham certainly hasn't made them any friends in high places. And it's clear - threads like this one nonwithstanding - that the powers that be would like nothing better than to see discussion on this topic simply go away.

The problem is I don't think it is going to go away. No matter what happens, Fordham's move has put this discussion front and center, and it's not going away, whatever anybody says. Leave or stay, fans of PL scholarships will have Fordham to thank.
Your first paragraph says it all imo. Your second one is very disturbing, though no less accurate imo.

Your 3rd one gives me some hope but not much.

[busybee14]

Let me emphasize again the AI for the Patriot League and the Ivy league are NOT the same and are NOT the same scale. The Ivy League AI uses SAT I and II scores and computes class rank differently.

For the sake of argument, I'll use the new SAT (reading + math + writing) for my computation, so it's based on a maximum score of 2400 (rather than the old computation of reading + math with a maximum of 1600). A 2400 SAT and 4.0 GPA equals 200 for the PL's AI calculation.

By my calculation, a kid with an 1830 SAT combined, with a unadjusted 3.2 GPA, would be at about the floor of the league. Now, a kid with a higher GPA could get away with a lower SAT, or vice versa. I think an 1830 ends up as a 1180-1200 in the old system, but I'm not certain about that.

I think what tends to happen is that kids have higher GPAs than their SATs, (though I have zero data to back this up). So you might get kids with (say) a 1760 SAT but have a 3.6.

Lets make it easy.If the kid can figure out the system ,he is smart enough to play.

I also understand with some of the ivies that the tiered acceptance for student athletes would allow a school to take 2-3 players at the bottom level(save this for your top studs who may have only pedestrian grades(1250-3.2)by ivy standardsthen like 8 at a little higher and so on.

[henfan]

I agree with you!........I just don't agree with people saying that the move to the CAA has made the former AE members sports programs so much better. If fans just said that the academic profile of the league.....or geography......or leadership have been good reasons for the move........that I can understand. Just don't tell me that the CAA has miraculously lifted these athletic programs to new levels of success.

And then I suppose I agree with you, but I'm not sure why you continue trying to perpetuate something that clearly isn't going to happen. Talk of schools returning to the AEC is silly beyond common sense.

Fans can say whatever they want. I don't recall any institution stating that a move from the AEC to the CAA was perceived as a miraculous move up the D-I foodchain. Without question though, it was a move from a conference with little vision and will to improve to one with a marked desire to improve and add sports. It was an incremental move up competitively for most sports, but a move in the right direction nevertheless. xthumbsupx

[ngineer]

Ive been following these FU threads with some intrest.I can tell you that if Fordham and some others added schollys ,ALOT of talented high school players would give a much closer look to the program.Those same players are now seeking out a fine education and fantanstic football with the likes of Hofstra,JMU,Richmond,W&M,Wofford,Furman etc..........for free
I have spoken to players who have come right out and said I dont even want to look at schools that dont offer schollys.(most are from families who have a couple of bucks or are small buisness owners and would not recieve much if any aid.
I would quit all the worry about soiling the integritity of the non scholly programs,its not like you are competeing with the SEC or Pac 10 for football players.
IMO it will only help !!!

That's the misconception. Even if the PL would go scholly, they cannot afford to give many full rides. The money would still be distributed in 'partial' scholarships as the grant money is issued. The only difference we are seeking is being able to to give the money without being restricted by 'need' formulas.

[ngineer]

This sole consideration is probably a lot more important than any of us realize. I believe cost-cutting will become widespread as we go forward in these difficult time. It is expensive to transport, house and feed a football team.


I know for sure that cost cutting is a HUGE issue, especially in this climate. There have been strict rules issued to all coaches regarding expenditures. Supposedly there was some 'criticism' of Coen by the administration for spending the bucks for the white pants the team wore at Lafayette as the 'antidote' to the anticipated all-black unis worn by the 'pards.

[LUHawker]

I know for sure that cost cutting is a HUGE issue, especially in this climate. There have been strict rules issued to all coaches regarding expenditures. Supposedly there was some 'criticism' of Coen by the administration for spending the bucks for the white pants the team wore at Lafayette as the 'antidote' to the anticipated all-black unis worn by the 'pards.

I thought the white pants were the 'practice' whites, so was any additional $ spent?

[EmeryZach]

Just want to say that I think this decision will be the best thing that ever happened to Fordham football.

[Franks Tanks]

Just want to say that I think this decision will be the best thing that ever happened to Fordham football.


Better than playing in the Rose Bowl?

Anyway if Forham wants to leave just do it. I have grown tired of their constant complaining as they clearly dont share the same philisophy on athletics as the core PL schools. That is fine, just get some balls and do it then--leave, see you later. Have fun playing Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian while hoping for a new NE conference to form. The PL may stagnate for a bit until everything gets sorted out, but the league will be fine.

[Fordham]

Anyway if Forham wants to leave just do it. I have grown tired of their constant complaining as they clearly dont share the same philisophy on athletics as the core PL schools. That is fine, just get some balls and do it then--leave, see you later. Have fun playing Gardner-Webb and Presbyterian while hoping for a new NE conference to form. The PL may stagnate for a bit until everything gets sorted out, but the league will be fine.
How could we ever be called the program with no balls in this situation?

... and now we have LFN and carney knocking us for not building consensus before giving an ultimatum and on the other end we're getting ridiculed for not just up and leaving? Jeez, guys, it's only been a few weeks.

And if we really did want to leave, we would have just done it. We clearly want to stay just not under the yoke of need-based-only aid and a league-wide AI.

[Franks Tanks]

How could we ever be called the program with no balls in this situation?

... and now we have LFN and carney knocking us for not building consensus before giving an ultimatum and on the other end we're getting ridiculed for not just up and leaving? Jeez, it's only been a few weeks.

And if we really did want to leave, we would have just done it. We clearly want to stay just not under the yoke of need-based-only aid and a league-wide AI.

Its just my opinion. I am in the corner of if you dont fit into the culture of the organization its just better to sever ties. My initial reaction was that we need to do everything possible to keep Fordham, but after considering the situation I have changed my mind. We have an associate member delivering ultimatum's and upset about the two defining factors of the league-- non-scholarship status and the AI. You hate both, why stay?

[DFW HOYA]

One hopes Fordham doesn't make the mistake St. John's did.

Back in 1999, St. John's expressed discontent with the MAAC's restrictive financial aid policy and opted to go it alone in moving to the NEC. When they got there, the cost of doing business was more than they bargained for and it was the beginning of the end for Redmen football. Fordham has more financial stability than St. John's did, but there will be costs to compete in the Big South that they have to be aware of now, not later, and going it alone is a risk.

Also, does Fordham cut all scheduling ties with PL schools after 2009...or vice versa, as the Big East schools did with Boston College?

[Fordham]

Its just my opinion. I am in the corner of if you dont fit into the culture of the organization its just better to sever ties. My initial reaction was that we need to do everything possible to keep Fordham, but after considering the situation I have changed my mind. We have an associate member delivering ultimatum's and upset about the two defining factors of the league-- non-scholarship status and the AI. You hate both, why stay? Because I find it hard to believe that a league that offers scholarships in every other sport could say that one of its two core defining factors is need-based aid. Further, we're fine with the AI - what we're not fine with is the change to the AI where a student athlete no longer has to be representative of the school he attends but rather the league. When it was told to us to swallow hard on B because A would be changing we went along. Then, it was the league who backed out on its promise and we reacted. Again, I completely disagree with you on what the core defining factors of the PL are.

Imo, if signs continue to point to us leaving rather than the PL adopting schollies, I expect that more people will have a change of heart and rather than being thankful for us putting it on the table, the vitriol will likely start to flow.

DFW - meh ... St. John's football. Very much like the Iona comparison. Both programs had an incredible lack of commitment behind them and once it was determined that they needed to pony up more resources to compete, they obviously folded. Not anywhere near an apples-to-apples with our program by any means. Even while remaining in the PL, I'd argue you guys are much closer to the Iona/St. John's risk than we ever will be.

[Wildcat80]

More than anything else, the Big South is studying ways to raise its profile. Increased travel costs would be an easy trade-off against adding a conference member in the country's largest media market.

except they issued a press release on studying ways to lower travel costs......

[Lehigh Football Nation]

First of all, you started this part by arguing that Fordham had a stated goal of going to 63 scholarships which is simply not the case. I was thinking that to say something so unequivocally you would have actually been told that directly by someone from our program but since you're argument is changing here, I'm assuming that's not the case.

Now you're arguing that we're likely to get there to hedge aginst not being able to be a counter? Please walk me through exactly how that would work. These schedules are made years in advance. Are you saying that the minute that two of the kids who are getting full rides drop football that we'll up getting a call from the UCONN AD saying that we got dropped from their schedule? Seems absurd to me. We have a budget for 58 kids and I would assume that if two drop off we would do what they do in pretty much every other sport which is to offer that aid to a walk-on or kids getting partial aid and allow them to have more for this year and then spend the $$ on some other kids next year.

That's just it Fordham - and this is no fault of your own - but all we are both doing is speculating. We are going by one announcement by one football coach. Nobody else from Fordham or the PL is going on the record. That leaves us to speculate as to what is really meant. Fordham tomorrow could talk to a FCS columnist and say that "we intend to stay at exactly 58 scholarships for the forseeable future" or 63 or whatever.

This speculation could be tamped down in an instant, but either nobody wants to or nobody is willing to. The Patriot League ADs/presidents seem to simply hope the speculation will just go away.

Your highlighted portion did make me think about something, though. With need-based aid, you CAN'T do what you describe, since aid is means-tested - if you can afford it last year, generally speaking you can afford it next year. But with scholarships you indeed will be able to offer that aid to a walk-on. So going to scholarships would offer that "wiggle room" I'm describing.


It's just very odd to me that you're going to lengths to make this appear to be something other than what it is. There is no great financial burden we are undertaking to make this move. We are simply converting 58 equivalencies to 58 scholarships. We get to use our millions on recruiting from the entire pool of potential student-athletes instead of just at the margins with the really poor or really rich kids. In these financial times, that is a much more responsible way to spend rather than having a huge budget but then limiting yourself in how you can spend it.

For Fordham, absolutely there is no additional financial burden/Title IX issues.

For Georgetown - who, it is speculated, are offering 25-30 equivalencies - would face the prospect, in order to stay competitive, to offer at a bare minimum 15 more equivalencies - and 15 more women's scholarships, since they're not offering that many equivalencies now. And even then they may not feel they can keep up with Fordham who are running with 58.


I disagree. While not as optimal as having a conference spot already in place I don't see going independent as nearly as big a deal, as long as it's only for the short term (2 - 3 years). Iona is a ridiculous comparison imo and shouldn't be referenced. That leaves you with a sample size of 1 for schools that you say couldn't cut it as an independent.

I wouldn't throw Iona out there as totally inapplicable. If you run as an independent, you will encounter the exact same issues (late-year scheduling, finding opponents, travel, fan interest) that they encountered. You'd probably have to do so without games against PL schools (so G'Town and HC would be gone), and probably Hofstra still is upset with you. That means an indy schedule would probably involve FCS games against Albany, SBU, URI, Marist... probably a transitioning school like Presbyterian or NCCU.... and with any luck 3 or for NEC schools. Even in a best-case scenario you'd be travelling at least three times for long distances to North Carolina, etc., and you'd be *dependent* on a money game. Or two.

[Franks Tanks]

Because I find it hard to believe that a league that offers scholarships in every other sport could say that one of its two core defining factors is need-based aid. Further, we're fine with the AI - what we're not fine with is the change to the AI where a student athlete no longer has to be representative of the school he attends but rather the league. When it was told to us to swallow hard on B because A would be changing we went along. Then, it was the league who backed out on its promise and we reacted. Again, I completely disagree with you on what the core defining factors of the PL are.

Imo, if signs continue to point to us leaving rather than the PL adopting schollies, I expect that more people will have a change of heart and rather than being thankful for us putting it on the table, the vitriol will likely start to flow.

DFW - meh ... St. John's football. Very much like the Iona comparison. Both programs had an incredible lack of commitment behind them and once it was determined that they needed to pony up more resources to compete, they obviously folded. Not anywhere near an apples-to-apples with our program by any means. Even while remaining in the PL, I'd argue you guys are much closer to the Iona/St. John's risk than we ever will be.


They were the defining factors upon the league founding, and are still a core defining factor of the Patriot Football League. The AI and need- based aid are just about unique to the Patriot Football league-- that is a defining factor to me in that it makes it different from nearly everyone else.

[Fordham]

More than anything else, the Big South is studying ways to raise its profile. Increased travel costs would be an easy trade-off against adding a conference member in the country's largest media market.

I appreciate the thought on this and having us play an FBS school/year will certainly help market our program. Overall, though, don't invite us thinking that the NYC market will give a crap about you because of us. They don't pay attention to much of what we do and, when they do, it's usually to cover our miserable-of-late hoops team.

[Fordham]

They were the defining factors upon the league founding, and are still a core defining factor of the Patriot Football League. The AI and need- based aid are just about unique to the Patriot Football league-- that is a defining factor to me in that it makes it different from nearly everyone else.

It was a defining factor in all sports when the league was founded and now football is the only relic associated with need-based aid. That makes the PL hypocrites for singling out football. It doens't mean that we're trying to change a core philosophy. We're simply trying to get the sport we're an affiliate member in treated on par with others.

Your other core defining factor was actually a school-based AI, not a league one. So, that factor that you said has been in place since the league's founding actually underwent a dramatic change in just the last few months.

I wish the league shared your regard for its defining factors since they've trampled over both.

[Franks Tanks]

It was a defining factor in all sports when the league was founded and now football is the only relic associated with need-based aid. That makes the PL hypocrites for singling out football. It doens't mean that we're trying to change a core philosophy. We're simply trying to get the sport we're an affiliate member in treated on par with others.

Your other core defining factor was actually a school-based AI, not a league one. So, that factor that you said has been in place since the league's founding actually underwent a dramatic change in just the last few months.

I wish the league shared your regard for its defining factors since they've trampled over both.

I am speaking of AI overall. Only the Ivy and PL currently have any sort of league wide standard in place-- the specificsmay change, but just the fact that a standard is in place makes the league unique. I understand why you are upset with the standard AI-- I get it and I would be upset too if I were a Fordham supporter. But its just shows more incongruity between Fordham's vision and the league's vision.

[Fordham]

I am speaking of AI overall. Only the Ivy and PL currently have any sort of league wide standard in place-- the specificsmay change, but just the fact that a standard is in place makes the league unique. I understand why you are upset with the standard AI-- I get it and I would be upset too if I were a Fordham supporter. But its just shows more incongruity between Fordham's vision and the league's vision.

and perhaps we're arguing semantics here but the issue I took exception with was where you stated that we hate the two core factors that make up the league. We have no problem with the AI. The problem was in how they changed it ... not the one that the league has always had in place.

Further, if they never went scholarship in any other sport I doubt you'd ever see this issue coming up from us or anyone else either. If the PL was still still need-based aid only across all sports it would be understood by all that this is what clearly defines the PL. The fact that they offer it in other sports, though, clearly shows that it has nothing to do with philosophy or core values.

[Franks Tanks]

and perhaps we're arguing semantics here but the issue I took exception with was where you stated that we hate the two core factors that make up the league. We have no problem with the AI. The problem was in how they changed it ... not the one that the league has always had in place.

Further, if they never went scholarship in any other sport I doubt you'd ever see this issue coming up from us or anyone else either. If the PL was still still need-based aid only across all sports it would be understood by all that this is what clearly defines the PL. The fact that they offer it in other sports, though, clearly shows that it has nothing to do with philosophy or core values.

Fair enough. Perhaps I should change my statement to this " Fordham's football vision seems to be taking a different path than the rest of the league, and given that perhaps it is better to part ways" xthumbsupx

[PAT]

Because I find it hard to believe that a league that offers scholarships in every other sport could say that one of its two core defining factors is need-based aid. Further, we're fine with the AI - what we're not fine with is the change to the AI where a student athlete no longer has to be representative of the school he attends but rather the league. When it was told to us to swallow hard on B because A would be changing we went along. Then, it was the league who backed out on its promise and we reacted. Again, I completely disagree with you on what the core defining factors of the PL are.

Imo, if signs continue to point to us leaving rather than the PL adopting schollies, I expect that more people will have a change of heart and rather than being thankful for us putting it on the table, the vitriol will likely start to flow.

DFW - meh ... St. John's football. Very much like the Iona comparison. Both programs had an incredible lack of commitment behind them and once it was determined that they needed to pony up more resources to compete, they obviously folded. Not anywhere near an apples-to-apples with our program by any means. Even while remaining in the PL, I'd argue you guys are much closer to the Iona/St. John's risk than we ever will be.

Even the Ivy League adjusts its AI by school. They don't have a league wide standard. Harvard has a higher AI requirement than that which is required by Cornell for instance. The student bodies of the Ivies are not all identical, nor are the admission stds. It was my understanding that consensus was reached amongst the league. Part ONE was agreement on the AI. Part TWO was to begin an accelerated resolution of the Schollie issue.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW - meh ... St. John's football. Very much like the Iona comparison. Both programs had an incredible lack of commitment behind them and once it was determined that they needed to pony up more resources to compete, they obviously folded. Not anywhere near an apples-to-apples with our program by any means. Even while remaining in the PL, I'd argue you guys are much closer to the Iona/St. John's risk than we ever will be.

I wasn't comparing Fordham to Iona any more than I would compare Georgetown to Iona--outside of two "multi-sport" fields, they share almost nothing in common.

[colorless raider]

Fair enough. Perhaps I should change my statement to this " Fordham's football vision seems to be taking a different path than the rest of the league, and given that perhaps it is better to part ways" xthumbsupx

I agree with Fordham that the Pl is a bunch of hypocrites to single out football for no schollies. i do agree it should be a league AI much like the Ivies. Alas, change will be difficult with Chopp's departure I fear.

[Go...gate]

I agree with Fordham as well. It was time for someone to throw down the gauntlet.

[Go...gate]

and perhaps we're arguing semantics here but the issue I took exception with was where you stated that we hate the two core factors that make up the league. We have no problem with the AI. The problem was in how they changed it ... not the one that the league has always had in place.

Further, if they never went scholarship in any other sport I doubt you'd ever see this issue coming up from us or anyone else either. If the PL was still still need-based aid only across all sports it would be understood by all that this is what clearly defines the PL. The fact that they offer it in other sports, though, clearly shows that it has nothing to do with philosophy or core values.

Your point is well taken. I was always opposed to athletic scholarships of any kind and still think the classic Ivy model is the best - but the tectonic plates of Division I athletics have shifted and to keep up, scholarships of some kind are necessary in the PL in all sports. Even the Ivy, in its own way, has made financial aid more readily available to students by underwriting grants rather than loans for its students.

I am surprised at some of the posts of our colleagues who are happy to usher Fordham out the door. Be careful of what you ask for.

[Fordham]

That's just it Fordham - and this is no fault of your own - but all we are both doing is speculating. We are going by one announcement by one football coach. Nobody else from Fordham or the PL is going on the record. That leaves us to speculate as to what is really meant. Fordham tomorrow could talk to a FCS columnist and say that "we intend to stay at exactly 58 scholarships for the forseeable future" or 63 or whatever.

This speculation could be tamped down in an instant, but either nobody wants to or nobody is willing to. The Patriot League ADs/presidents seem to simply hope the speculation will just go away.

There is a huge difference between me quoting Masella that we're staying at 58 and you just grabbing the 63 number out of thin air (and stating it as a fact, no less!!). How can you even act like the two are close, in terms of validity?

Perhaps it's a hedge for the future decision to not go schollie but there seems to be a large effort to position this as a big financial burden when in fact it's not.


For Fordham, absolutely there is no additional financial burden/Title IX issues.

For Georgetown - who, it is speculated, are offering 25-30 equivalencies - would face the prospect, in order to stay competitive, to offer at a bare minimum 15 more equivalencies - and 15 more women's scholarships, since they're not offering that many equivalencies now. And even then they may not feel they can keep up with Fordham who are running with 58.
Holy crap LFN!!! You are seriously linking the approval of football scholarships with a requirement that Georgetown fund the sport on par with the rest of the league? Yikes!!!!!!! Then I agree with you that there is absolutely zero chance that they'll happen and good luck with the league that is going to require that. Quick question - if we stay, will the league go back to the old AI until we can get our facilities on par with you guys or Lafayette? xconfusedx

Seriously, these are two separate issues. Whatever the amount of money that any PL school is currently spending will be spent more effectively with scholarship than with need-based aid. If Georgetown currently funds 22 equivalencies then they can convert to 22 scholarships and, depending on how they spend that $$, they could probably bring in the best players out of any of us. If Lehigh funds 55, then they get 55 scholarships. Whether or not a school chooses on its own to spend more shouldn't be any different with scholarships than it is with need-based aid. In whatever scenario you can muster up, spending the $$ on need-based aid is a less effective (and I would argue, less responsible, in this economy) than spending it as you see fit on the best student-athlete you can find.

It seriously boggles the mind that anyone would throw up the roadblock for scholarships that Georgetown has to double its commitment to the sport (or whatever the $ increase would be) in order to get them. xrolleyesx

I wouldn't throw Iona out there as totally inapplicable. If you run as an independent, you will encounter the exact same issues (late-year scheduling, finding opponents, travel, fan interest) that they encountered. You'd probably have to do so without games against PL schools (so G'Town and HC would be gone), and probably Hofstra still is upset with you. That means an indy schedule would probably involve FCS games against Albany, SBU, URI, Marist... probably a transitioning school like Presbyterian or NCCU.... and with any luck 3 or for NEC schools. Even in a best-case scenario you'd be travelling at least three times for long distances to North Carolina, etc., and you'd be *dependent* on a money game. Or two.

Again, it's absurd. What was Iona's budget prior to dropping the sport? What FBS schools did they have on the schedule to maintain interest (and dramatically increase it) from their fan base while a new conference comes in to play? Again, if you're a PL fan you should worry much more about the Georgetown comparisons with Iona and St. Johns, which I think is much, much more apt. Having us leave would make you completely dependent on their commitment to the sport to maintain the auto-bid.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Holy crap LFN!!! You are seriously linking the approval of football scholarships with a requirement that Georgetown fund the sport on par with the rest of the league?...

Seriously, these are two separate issues. Whatever the amount of money that any PL school is currently spending will be spent more effectively with scholarship than with need-based aid. If Georgetown currently funds 22 equivalencies then they can convert to 22 scholarships and, depending on how they spend that $$, they could probably bring in the best players out of any of us. If Lehigh funds 55, then they get 55 scholarships. Whether or not a school chooses on its own to spend more shouldn't be any different with scholarships than it is with need-based aid. In whatever scenario you can muster up, spending the $$ on need-based aid is a less effective (and I would argue, less responsible, in this economy) than spending it as you see fit on the best student-athlete you can find.

I agree with you that if the PL goes schollie, there will likely not be a *requirement* for institutions to man up to 58, 63, or whatever. But a school like Georgetown will have to weigh the possibility that Fordham (and, I suspect, Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette) will have "taken the gloves off". Competing against schools with 50ish equivalencies limited by aid is one thing; competing against schools with 63 equivalencies is quite another.

Against PL schools this year, Georgetown's largest margin of defeat was 24 points; against 63-scholarship Richmond, they were blanked 48-0. This could be what G'Town feels like they are facing.

Having said all that, I don't think it's Georgetown's potential plight which is is dominating the talk of scholarships. I think the talk is one of principle - and costs. You can't overestimate how the potential loss of revenue in 2009 from PL athletic departments play into this.


Again, it's absurd. What was Iona's budget prior to dropping the sport? What FBS schools did they have on the schedule to maintain interest (and dramatically increase it) from their fan base while a new conference comes in to play? Again, if you're a PL fan you should worry much more about the Georgetown comparisons with Iona and St. Johns, which I think is much, much more apt. Having us leave would make you completely dependent on their commitment to the sport to maintain the auto-bid.

Iona and Fordham aren't the same story in football. I use Iona as an example of a local school that went independent recently that had challenges scheduling. Yes, they had different challenges (with 1/8 the football budget of Fordham), but the Iona challenges I brought up still would apply to Fordham: late-year scheduling, finding opponents, travel, fan interest. Money games, could they help? Sure, and yes, it wasn't an option for Iona. But the money doesn't cure all those issues I brought up.

[turbodean]

Richmond are the national champs, not a good one to single out as an example vis-vis Georgetown.

[MplsBison]

I think what it comes down to: you're never going to be Harvard, Yale or Princeton.

So why limit your athletics like they do?

[Fordham]

I agree with you that if the PL goes schollie, there will likely not be a *requirement* for institutions to man up to 58, 63, or whatever. But a school like Georgetown will have to weigh the possibility that Fordham (and, I suspect, Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette) will have "taken the gloves off". Competing against schools with 50ish equivalencies limited by aid is one thing; competing against schools with 63 equivalencies is quite another.

Against PL schools this year, Georgetown's largest margin of defeat was 24 points; against 63-scholarship Richmond, they were blanked 48-0. This could be what G'Town feels like they are facing.

Having said all that, I don't think it's Georgetown's potential plight which is is dominating the talk of scholarships. I think the talk is one of principle - and costs. You can't overestimate how the potential loss of revenue in 2009 from PL athletic departments play into this.

I sure would hope that the league wouldn't say no to scholarships because it thinks it would hurt the one program that chooses to not fund the sport anywhere near on par with the rest of the league. My only 2 questions then are:

1. What "principle" are you referring to?

2. How will the loss in revenue play into this? Again, whatever they decide to spend on equivalencies can be rolled into scholarships. If this year a school had 50 equivalencies and budget cuts are bringing that number down to 47 in this next year, then why not just have them provide 47 scholarships? I may not be following what you meant here, though, so that's why I'm trying to clarify.

Iona and Fordham aren't the same story in football. I use Iona as an example of a local school that went independent recently that had challenges scheduling. Yes, they had different challenges (with 1/8 the football budget of Fordham), but the Iona challenges I brought up still would apply to Fordham: late-year scheduling, finding opponents, travel, fan interest. Money games, could they help? Sure, and yes, it wasn't an option for Iona. But the money doesn't cure all those issues I brought up.
Still just an inane comparison. Iona's last football expenses were around $500K. G-town's was around $1.5MM and ours is over $4MM. Other than the fact that we'd be two NY schools who tried going independent there is absolutely nothing in common to draw the comparison. The fact that Lehigh and Iona both have gold in their team colors is as strong a link as what you're suggesting here. Now our AD may have to work a bit harder but to bide our time as an independent for 2 - 3 years will be absolutely nothing like what Iona and St. John's went through.

[DFW HOYA]

Richmond are the national champs, not a good one to single out as an example vis-vis Georgetown.

FWIW, from 2001 to 2008 Georgetown is 22-58 against non-scholarship teams (4-26 since 2006), with an average margin in losses of 22 points. At the same time it is 2-5 against full scholarship teams (1-2 since 2006), with an average margin in losses of 24 points. Not much difference.

[Hoyadestroya85]

If this is the case... Godspeed Fordham.. you tried to do a righteous thing but the old hats wanted nothing to do with it.. 55-10.. That's all I have to say, The PL champion got embarassed by Villanova in the playoffs.. that should have said something.

[Go...gate]

If this is the case... Godspeed Fordham.. you tried to do a righteous thing but the old hats wanted nothing to do with it.. 55-10.. That's all I have to say, The PL champion got embarassed by Villanova in the playoffs.. that should have said something.

It did, Hoya. The problem is that the rubber has met the road and, in reality, not everyone feels the same way about scholarships.

[RichH2]

Gate, A true statement but a difference in the viability of or philosophical validity of athletic aid should apply to all athletic endeavors but in our league it pertains only to football. All other sports may have schollies.So we are not Ivy pure. $$$$ is the difference I suppose.

[JoltinJoe]

If this is the case... Godspeed Fordham.. you tried to do a righteous thing but the old hats wanted nothing to do with it.. 55-10.. That's all I have to say, The PL champion got embarassed by Villanova in the playoffs.. that should have said something.

Sad. Fordham's scheduling UConn and Army ...

While the PL allows itself to be marginalized ...

Of course, as with the last move by Fordham over basketball, the PL will eventually come to its senses and award football scholarships ... too late to save itself from losing a key program.

[Franks Tanks]

Sad. Fordham's scheduling UConn and Army ...

While the PL allows itself to be marginalized ...

Of course, as with the last move by Fordham over basketball, the PL will eventually come to its senses and award football scholarships ... too late to save itself from losing a key program.

Let me say I am in favor of scholarships, but Fordham and the PL should know that scholly's dont guarantee success. Fordham is taking a huge risk striking out without a conferece, and you cant tell me with a straight face the Big South is desirable.

We shall see how Fordham matches up against the PL in 5 years if they do leave-- it may still be a very even playing field.

[RichH2]

According to FU board PL deciding on Thursday on scholarships. True?

[turbodean]

FWIW, from 2001 to 2008 Georgetown is 22-58 against non-scholarship teams (4-26 since 2006), with an average margin in losses of 22 points. At the same time it is 2-5 against full scholarship teams (1-2 since 2006), with an average margin in losses of 24 points. Not much difference.

DFW - thanks for supplying the the facts to back up my comment. when i read the example given, i had a sense it wasn't a relevent comparison.

[turbodean]

Let me say I am in favor of scholarships, but Fordham and the PL should know that scholly's dont guarantee success. Fordham is taking a huge risk striking out without a conferece, and you cant tell me with a straight face the Big South is desirable.

Of course its a risk; we just think staying in a PL without athletic scholarships is riskier.

You've apparently come to the conclusion the big South is our only league option. And for what is available and known today, that could be true. However we believe we are positioning ourselves for future opportunities that will come about from inevitable future changes.

The one thing you can be certain of is that there will be change.


We shall see how Fordham matches up against the PL in 5 years if they do leave-- it may still be a very even playing field.

Hopefully the games do remain competitive. We do not wish ill will on anyone else. If you can thrive within the PL structure, more power to you. It's just that we're pretty convinced we can't.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

As a Lehigh fan i don't see this as the death of competitive at this level. Lehigh, Colgate and Lafayette should still be able to battle the CAA teams just as they have if their smart with their financial packages. No matter how you slice it the PL schools are still giving out a substantial amount of money which is enough to get several highly talented players. Scholarships would deffinitely help but not as much as people think. As long as Lehigh continues to dish out a good chunk on aid they'll be able to at least hang in there. Hopefully, scholarships will be instituted once the the BOT's feel the economy is righted then this will all be moot.

[carney2]

According to FU board PL deciding on Thursday on scholarships. True?

The "informant" only has 18 posts, but he is not saying "I think," or "It looks like," or "I heard." His exact comment is

"The PL will decide this Thursday on the football scholarship issue."

This is the Machiavellian Patriot League. Compared to these guys, Dick Cheney was a forthcoming fount of information. Besides, it's only March and supposedly the Fordham "deadline" was June. The Patriot Poohbahs have never been known to do today what can be put off until tomorrow. Remember, a decision delayed is a decision avoided.

Even if a vote is taken on Thursday, will we then have a decision - or will it merely lead to further "study?" And, if a decision, will we ever really hear anything, or will we have to wait until the 2010 schedules are announced to see if Fordham is there with an asterisk next to their name denoting a league game?

The smart money says

The Patriot League will reject scholarships.

and

Fordham has no obvious and reasonable Plan B, and will botch this in the end.

[Franks Tanks]

Of course its a risk; we just think staying in a PL without athletic scholarships is riskier.

You've apparently come to the conclusion the big South is our only league option. And for what is available and known today, that could be true. However we believe we are positioning ourselves for future opportunities that will come about from inevitable future changes.

The one thing you can be certain of is that there will be change.



Hopefully the games do remain competitive. We do not wish ill will on anyone else. If you can thrive within the PL structure, more power to you. It's just that we're pretty convinced we can't.

But these new options will not materilize in the next year or two. There will be a gap until this new magic NE conference can form. What will you do until then?

[Fordham]

But these new options will not materilize in the next year or two. There will be a gap until this new magic NE conference can form. What will you do until then?
The same thing I've written in most of my posts on here - go independent for 2 - 3 years until it shakes out. We'll try to mitigate the effect of not being eligible for the auto bid by maintain interest in the program through scheduling UCONN and Army and any other FCS payout schools we can for future years. Assuming no one from the PL wants to or is allowed to play us, we'll simply need to fill in 6 open dates. Given the economy I think we'd do pretty well going after local schools like Hofstra, Albany, Stony Brook, Wagner, CCSU, Monmouth, Marist before we'll even have to look outside of a short/medium bus ride.

I could be wrong on all of this but I believe that if this plays out like it appears to be doing, our preferred option is to go independent with the belief that the landscape will change enough in 2 - 3 years that we'll have a much better idea of where we fit best. That said, this all gets alot easier and alot better if they simply say 'yes'.

[Fordham]

The "informant" only has 18 posts, but he is not saying "I think," or "It looks like," or "I heard." His exact comment is

"The PL will decide this Thursday on the football scholarship issue."

This is the Machiavellian Patriot League. Compared to these guys, Dick Cheney was a forthcoming fount of information. Besides, it's only March and supposedly the Fordham "deadline" was June. The Patriot Poohbahs have never been known to do today what can be put off until tomorrow. Remember, a decision delayed is a decision avoided.

Even if a vote is taken on Thursday, will we then have a decision - or will it merely lead to further "study?" And, if a decision, will we ever really hear anything, or will we have to wait until the 2010 schedules are announced to see if Fordham is there with an asterisk next to their name denoting a league game?

The smart money says

The Patriot League will reject scholarships.

and

Fordham has no obvious and reasonable Plan B, and will botch this in the end.
The "informant" only has 18 posts b/c our old board died and its posting history went along with it. He's the son of a former HC who stays very active with the program and is as 'in the know' as anyone.

The guy he references, Jeff Gray, is the one who really controls our athletic program and key decisions. If he's as behind this as the "informant" wrote (and I've heard he definitely is), then our plan b will go into effect - go independent for the next 2 - 3 years.

If we weren't committed to going scholarship, how could we have gotten UCONN or Army on our schedule?

[Franks Tanks]

The same thing I've written in most of my posts on here - go independent for 2 - 3 years until it shakes out. We'll try to mitigate the effect of not being eligible for the auto bid by maintain interest in the program through scheduling UCONN and Army and any other FCS payout schools we can for future years. Assuming no one from the PL wants or can play us, we'll simply need to fill in 6 open dates. Given the economy I think we'd do pretty well going after local schools like Hofstra, Albany, Stony Brook, Wagner, CCSU, Monmouth, Marist before we'll even have to look outside of a short/medium bus ride.

I could be wrong on all of this but I believe that if this plays out like it appears to be doing, our preferred option is to go independent with the belief that the landscape will change enough in 2 - 3 years that we'll have a much better idea of where we fit best.


The schools you mention above will no doubt want to play you, but it will be very difficult to get the scheduling to match up. It would be a small miracle to match up an open data with every team as most teams have all conference games after the first month or so. You will be able to get some good games and some flops-- it will be interesting.

[Fordham]

The schools you mention above will no doubt want to play you, but it will be very difficult to get the scheduling to match up. It would be a small miracle to match up an open data with every team as most teams have all conference games after the first month or so. You will be able to get some good games and some flops-- it will be interesting.

Agreed that our AD will have to work particularly hard and that we may have some 'flops' in there. But at least the 'flops' will be mitigated by the playing of the FBS school.

Further, the alums are extremely grateful that the administration has taken this move and if we get stuck having to go independent for 2 - 3 years (hopefully we won't), there will certainly be understanding that what put us in the postion where our schedule has some holes in it is the fact that they were willing to step up to the plate.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The same thing I've written in most of my posts on here - go independent for 2 - 3 years until it shakes out. We'll try to mitigate the effect of not being eligible for the auto bid by maintain interest in the program through scheduling UCONN and Army and any other FCS payout schools we can for future years. Assuming no one from the PL wants to or is allowed to play us, we'll simply need to fill in 6 open dates. Given the economy I think we'd do pretty well going after local schools like Hofstra, Albany, Stony Brook, Wagner, CCSU, Monmouth, Marist before we'll even have to look outside of a short/medium bus ride.

Last I heard, Hofstra were not happy campers with you.

That means your OOC possibility would consist of 1 non-schollie, 1 BSC team, 1 NEC team that will not commit to the full allotment of scholarships (and hasn't lined up to play Fordham in the past) and three top-flight NEC teams - if their schedules allow. Add to that the probable conclusion of the "Liberty Cup" game vs. Columbia.

Sure you could schedule 2 body bag games. But let's not kid ourselves, making an 11 game schedule will not be easy. Guaranteed you'd be playing a late-season game at Presbyterian or NC-Central.

And the playoffs would be extremely unlikely with such a schedule.

[Fordham]

Last I heard, Hofstra were not happy campers with you.

That means your OOC possibility would consist of 1 non-schollie, 1 BSC team, 1 NEC team that will not commit to the full allotment of scholarships (and hasn't lined up to play Fordham in the past) and three top-flight NEC teams - if their schedules allow. Add to that the probable conclusion of the "Liberty Cup" game vs. Columbia.

Why would you say that the Columbia game is going to be concluded?


Sure you could schedule 2 body bag games. But let's not kid ourselves, making an 11 game schedule will not be easy. Guaranteed you'd be playing a late-season game at Presbyterian or NC-Central.

And the playoffs would be extremely unlikely with such a schedule.
Not saying it's going to be easy but there are certainly more options than you're giving us credit for.

And 'last you heard' must have been a pretty long time ago. We've since started playing them in hoops and some former AD and development people have gone to Hofstra as well. Given the state of the economy and reduced travel costs to play one another, there's no larger cross to bear with Hofstra other than trying to make the calendars fit.


...

Having said all that, I don't think it's Georgetown's potential plight which is is dominating the talk of scholarships. I think the talk is one of principle - and costs. You can't overestimate how the potential loss of revenue in 2009 from PL athletic departments play into this.
...

Again, what is the principle you're referring to here?

And what are the increased costs?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is nothing saying that the Fordham/Columbia game would be concluded. But certainly Columbia would have to re-evaluate their relationship if Fordham is an independent. Maybe they'd decide to continue the rivalry, I'm not sure - but Dartmouth is trying frantically to detach themselves from the UNH game since the games are so out of hand - certainly that example will be brought up.

IMO, the talk about "principle" is the historic one - would it be the "final" compromise to the "ideals" of the Patriot League (and, sotto voce, the Ivy League agreement of 1948)? If the PL goes with scholarships, exactly how different would the PL be from, say, the CAA, Big Sky or others? Would the "special relationship" with the Ivy League disappear? Etc. I'm not saying I agree with this argument, but IMO it is one that will come up.

The talk of costs is real. Fordham, of course, is at 58 equivalencies now, so for the Rams changing to scholarships is one of mere accounting and increasing the number of athletes you can offer without going through the athletic aid office. But for other schools in the league it's not that simple since they're not at 58 scholarships now. Yes, all the schools could simply choose to fund their current equivalency numbers as scholarships. But the question becomes one of competitiveness: would it start an arms race that would force the teams not at 58 to fund more scholarships in order to stay competitive?

Fordham faces no additional costs associated with this shift. But other schools will in some way or another need to add more expenses in order to stay competitive (through more scholarships, whether rising from 20 or 50 to a number that's closer to 58). And that's where Title IX comes in - any increase will also involve an associated rise in women's scholarships. And that's an awfully challenging argument to make when the PL is taking moves to cut costs in all other sports.

It's sort of disingenuous of you to claim on the one hand that scholarships are the cure to what ails Fordham - but then to turn around and claim that all the rest of the schools will need to do to "keep up" is to simply also switch to scholarships too but keep funding on the same level. I think you're missing the perspective of the other schools. Everyone wants to compete - but IMHO there is a concern that this will be an arms race.

Again, this isn't my opinion, but I do know that these arguments will come up - and they will need an effective counterargument if there's a hope to stay in the league. Just saying "f*** you, ratchet up your spending or we're gone, trust us, it's great for the league" isn't a strategy for staying.

[Fordham]

There is nothing saying that the Fordham/Columbia game would be concluded. But certainly Columbia would have to re-evaluate their relationship if Fordham is an independent. Maybe they'd decide to continue the rivalry, I'm not sure - but Dartmouth is trying frantically to detach themselves from the UNH game since the games are so out of hand - certainly that example will be brought up.

Stony Brook, The Citadel, Villanova, New Hampshire, Towson & Rhode Island all had Ivy games in this past season but yet we will be singled out and punished for having the gall to go scholarship? xconfusedx

You know this stuff but yet continue to make it something it's not.


IMO, the talk about "principle" is the historic one - would it be the "final" compromise to the "ideals" of the Patriot League (and, sotto voce, the Ivy League agreement of 1948)? If the PL goes with scholarships, exactly how different would the PL be from, say, the CAA, Big Sky or others? Would the "special relationship" with the Ivy League disappear? Etc. I'm not saying I agree with this argument, but IMO it is one that will come up.
Nonsense. There is zero philosophical opposition to scholarships given that they offer it in other sports. If you're correct that the key drivers against going scholarship are principle and cost ... and this is the 'principle' of which you speak, then I'm more hopeful than ever since it's a bs argument.


The talk of costs is real. Fordham, of course, is at 58 equivalencies now, so for the Rams changing to scholarships is one of mere accounting and increasing the number of athletes you can offer without going through the athletic aid office. But for other schools in the league it's not that simple since they're not at 58 scholarships now. Yes, all the schools could simply choose to fund their current equivalency numbers as scholarships. But the question becomes one of competitiveness: would it start an arms race that would force the teams not at 58 to fund more scholarships in order to stay competitive?

Fordham faces no additional costs associated with this shift. But other schools will in some way or another need to add more expenses in order to stay competitive (through more scholarships, whether rising from 20 or 50 to a number that's closer to 58). And that's where Title IX comes in - any increase will also involve an associated rise in women's scholarships. And that's an awfully challenging argument to make when the PL is taking moves to cut costs in all other sports.
You keep referring to it as a 'need' when it's not. These are two completely separate issues. Moving to scholarships ... and increasing your commitment to the program.

In particular, the bolded line above is troubling

By the way, it's good to see you back off of your statement that we will definitively incur higher costs and that we're also hell bent on moving to 63 scholarships.


It's sort of disingenuous of you to claim on the one hand that scholarships are the cure to what ails Fordham - but then to turn around and claim that all the rest of the schools will need to do to "keep up" is to simply also switch to scholarships too but keep funding on the same level. I think you're missing the perspective of the other schools. Everyone wants to compete - but IMHO there is a concern that this will be an arms race.

Again, this isn't my opinion, but I do know that these arguments will come up - and they will need an effective counterargument if there's a hope to stay in the league. Just saying "f*** you, ratchet up your spending or we're gone, trust us, it's great for the league" isn't a strategy for staying.

Disingenous? First off, read my posts and understand them - I've never claimed that scholarships are a cure all (I've claimed they'll help) but I have claimed that the new AI could be the death of our program - huge difference.

Further, there you go again with the ratchet up your spending line and it's bs. You can't argue against this move based on principle or cost - it's all just a smoke screen - yet there it is again and again. Further you keep stating things as fact like we're going to spend more ... or we're moving to 63 scholarships ... when it's not true. At the very least I would think the guy who considers himself the journalist among us would be a heckuva lot more careful with his statements.

Overall, these are incredibly flimsy arguments and the only reason I'm even responding to them is because I know that you're the poster here who is closest to the league offices and it's a sign to me that they may actually be stupid enough to throw up some of this bs and believe it.

It's NOT money and it's NOT principle. What seems most likely to me (but is still just a guess) is the worry over how this might effect the relationship with the Ivies and, despite our story that we were promised a link between scholarships & AI, the fact that an affiliate is the one pushing this has ticked people off. The question is - what other alternative did we have if we were not prepared to go yet another year without scholarships but under the yoke of the league-wide AI? You call it "f*** you, we're leaving' but I call it a simple statement that we're moving ahead as promised and hope we still have a home where we like it in the PL.

[turbodean]

But other schools will in some way or another need to add more expenses in order to stay competitive (through more scholarships, whether rising from 20 or 50 to a number that's closer to 58).

Aren't you basically stating a major component of Fordham's position here. In other words, all PL schools would have to raise to a comparable amount of scholarships to Fordham in order to remain competitive with Fordham. Wouldn't that same logic extend to the sub-division at large then? That in order for a program to remain competitive in 1AA that program would need to offer athletic scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

The guy he references, Jeff Gray, is the one who really controls our athletic program and key decisions. If he's as behind this as the "informant" wrote (and I've heard he definitely is), then our plan b will go into effect - go independent for the next 2 - 3 years.

Where does Frank McLaughlin fit into those decisions?

[Go...gate]

Gate, A true statement but a difference in the viability of or philosophical validity of athletic aid should apply to all athletic endeavors but in our league it pertains only to football. All other sports may have schollies.So we are not Ivy pure. $$$$ is the difference I suppose.

No, I agree. What is striking in this discussion is that I thought most of us were on the same page with this. Hell, I was one of the most moss-backed, neanderthal, conservative, anti-scholarship Colgate posters for many, many years and I have come around to supporting scholarships across the board, so I figured everybody else would already be be rarin' to go on this issue and giving "attaboys'" to Fordham. Such does not appear to be the case.

Fellas, I did not concede easily, but I must say: PL HAS TO GO TO SCHOLARSHIPS IN FOOTBALL TO HAVE A MEANINGFUL CHANCE TO COMPETE IN DIVISION I FCS.

We need to support Fordham. I surely hope Colgate is.

[MplsBison]

And what makes you think the PL presidents are even the slightest bit interesting in a "meaningful chance" to compete with schools they consider to be junior colleges?


The PL wants to compete with the IL...and that's about it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Aren't you basically stating a major component of Fordham's position here. In other words, all PL schools would have to raise to a comparable amount of scholarships to Fordham in order to remain competitive with Fordham. Wouldn't that same logic extend to the sub-division at large then? That in order for a program to remain competitive in 1AA that program would need to offer athletic scholarships.

Yes, I am. But it appears that Fordham wants it one way when it is in terms of intra-divisional play ("give us scholarships, and we can compete with Delaware and Villanova") but seems to ignore the inter-divisional play ("how can Georgetown compete with Fordham with 20 scholarships when they have 58").

Either the scholarships are going to help immensely with competitiveness vs. (say) Hofstra - but if that's the case, then it should "hurt" PL schools who choose to fund less than 58 scholarships.

Instructive here is the lesson of PL basketball. Scholarships were instituted in 1998 after Fordham left and Holy Cross, Army and Navy threatened to bolt. Holy Cross and Colgate went to scholarship right away, and Lehigh went to "sort-of" scholarship. (Army and Navy are "scholarship" in that their education is free, repayable through academy service, and American was full scholly when they entered the league.) It took ten years for the rest of the league (the last school being Lafayette) to finally accept basketball scholarships - and even now there are schools that don't issue the full allotment.

You can take the lesson from that experience that scholarships attract a better academic qualifier than need-based aid. You can also take the lesson that you need to spend more on scholarships in order to even have a prayer of competing.

*****

Look, let me be clear here: I want football scholarships for the PL. It will raise the academic profile of the league, allow the PL to get football players they are currently losing to the Ivy League, and given that the rest of the PL is scholarship, PL football is the victim, IMO, of financial aid discrimination. But that's not to say that I think the expected counterarguments are completely without merit.

Would I like to see them all at 58 scholarships, playing a tough OOC schedule and some making deep runs in the playoffs? Absolutely. But you HAVE to ask the questions: What would Georgetown do? What would Bucknell do? What would Holy Cross do? As bad as it would be to lose Fordham (and believe me, IMO it would be a terrible blow to the league), it would be equally as bad or worse to see Georgetown, Holy Cross and/or Bucknell fold their programs over this. I don't know if it would come to that. But you can't dismiss that out-of-hand as an outlandish.

[colorless raider]

No, I agree. What is striking in this discussion is that I thought most of us were on the same page with this. Hell, I was one of the most moss-backed, neanderthal, conservative, anti-scholarship Colgate posters for many, many years and I have come around to supporting scholarships across the board, so I figured everybody else would already be be rarin' to go on this issue and giving "attaboys'" to Fordham. Such does not appear to be the case.

Fellas, I did not concede easily, but I must say: PL HAS TO GO TO SCHOLARSHIPS IN FOOTBALL TO HAVE A MEANINGFUL CHANCE TO COMPETE IN DIVISION I FCS.

We need to support Fordham. I surely hope Colgate is.

I am 100% with you and Fordham. I do fear that the presidential transition may deter us from taking a leadership role.
We should all write the trustess to give them our "informed" view of this situation.

[LUHawker]

There has been more acriomony on this topic than I would have initially thought. I think Fordham is making a bold move and I hope it motivates the PL to action.

However, given the pall of the economic environment currently, timing does not bolster Fordham's efforts. So, given that timing is likely a major consideration, what would Fordham do if the following response came back from the PL:

"Ok Fordham, we hear you and acknowledge that there was at least a tacit quid pro quo for scholarships with the change in the AI. However, given the cost-cutting and hand-wringing related to the current economic situation, we think its imprudent at this time to move ahead with scholarships. HOWEVER, we value you as a league member and really want you to remain a part of the league. Therefore the League will agree to instituting scholarships (or better said, eliminating the need-based financial aid formula) but not for another 2 years, or not until the recruiting class of 2012. If you work with us on timing we'll move on schollies."

To me, this allows Fordham to back away from its ultimatum in a politically acceptable fashion and allows the Patriot League to "save face" and not capitulate to an associate member's demands. It may not be exactly what either side wants, but this ultimately gives Fordham what it wants and allows the other members to ramp up or otherwise plan for scholarships as opposed to having their feet held to the fire for the recruits of 2010.

What say ye all?

[Franks Tanks]

There has been more acriomony on this topic than I would have initially thought. I think Fordham is making a bold move and I hope it motivates the PL to action.

However, given the pall of the economic environment currently, timing does not bolster Fordham's efforts. So, given that timing is likely a major consideration, what would Fordham do if the following response came back from the PL:

"Ok Fordham, we hear you and acknowledge that there was at least a tacit quid pro quo for scholarships with the change in the AI. However, given the cost-cutting and hand-wringing related to the current economic situation, we think its imprudent at this time to move ahead with scholarships. HOWEVER, we value you as a league member and really want you to remain a part of the league. Therefore the League will agree to instituting scholarships (or better said, eliminating the need-based financial aid formula) but not for another 2 years, or not until the recruiting class of 2012. If you work with us on timing we'll move on schollies."



To me, this allows Fordham to back away from its ultimatum in a politically acceptable fashion and allows the Patriot League to "save face" and not capitulate to an associate member's demands. It may not be exactly what either side wants, but this ultimately gives Fordham what it wants and allows the other members to ramp up or otherwise plan for scholarships as opposed to having their feet held to the fire for the recruits of 2010.

What say ye all?

Perfect solution if the league Prexy's are philospohically on board with scholly's.

[Go...gate]

And what makes you think the PL presidents are even the slightest bit interesting in a "meaningful chance" to compete with schools they consider to be junior colleges?

The PL wants to compete with the IL...and that's about it.

And we could for a long time until the game and rules changed in Division I and the Ivies made aid more available to qualified students then they ever had before. Now we need scholarships to even compete with the Ivies, much less the NEC, Big South and CAA!

The Presidents need to do this or else we will become consigned to permanent non-competitive status in football, as we nearly did in basketball and other sports. That is not acceptable to this Colgate alum.

[jimbo65]

LFN, I am coming late to the discussion since I do not know all, or many, of the details. My ? is, what is the real issue. Apparently, Fordham is already near or at the 58 schollie level. Main difference is that these ar "need based". What difference does it make if they are need based or perceived fball talent based. Anyone who thinks that many/most of the present "need based" fballers would be inclined to attend Fordham, or for that matter, be asked to attend is a Madoff Fund candidate. Further, while I do not understand what the recent PL change to"AI" means in english, it appears that it would be injurious to the FU fball program. My guess is that Fordham is admitting fballers who may not have demonstrated the academic credentials of say Bucknell players. Don't know, but that is my guess. So what. If they can legitimately participate in the academic experience, more power to them. From my perspective, limited as it might be, this is a good move, not only for Fordham but for the other PL participants. Again, spec. on my part but I find it difficult that Gtown or HC is short of $s. I find Gtown particularly hypocritical. Look at their past bball success. Does anyone really believe that, lets Say Pat Ewing who had difficulty reading the press release associated with his selecting Gtown was a Gtown caliber academic recruit. They wish to pick and choose when they are academically oriented. I am not anti any institution, but the hypocricy is over the top.

[bostonspider]

Maybe the PL can say OK, but put pressure on Fordham to join the PL for all sports. Many in the A10 think they are overmatched in our league in basketball, and that they might thrive in a more academically based league that's members have basketball facilities more akin to the Rose Hill Gymnasium. Then we can pawn St. Bonaventure off on the MAAC and be back at 12 and happy.

[turbodean]

"Ok Fordham, we hear you and acknowledge that there was at least a tacit quid pro quo for scholarships with the change in the AI. However, given the cost-cutting and hand-wringing related to the current economic situation, we think its imprudent at this time to move ahead with scholarships. HOWEVER, we value you as a league member and really want you to remain a part of the league. Therefore the League will agree to instituting scholarships (or better said, eliminating the need-based financial aid formula) but not for another 2 years, or not until the recruiting class of 2012. If you work with us on timing we'll move on schollies."

Small problem with your proposed solution. There's a 2011 game scheduled with UConn I'm pretty sure Coach Masella doesn't want to have to cancel. If we're not schollies, they wouldn't play us.

There's also this little AI problem. It's my opinion that the league would also have to at the very minimum roll the AI rule back to where it was.

[TheValleyRaider]

I am 100% with you and Fordham. I do fear that the presidential transition may deter us from taking a leadership role.
We should all write the trustess to give them our "informed" view of this situation.

The unfortunate thing there is that if we wanted to take a leadership role, doing so before Chopp left was our big chance. She was the senior member of what we can guess was the "pro-scholarship" group amongst the core members. Now that she's leaving, I fear we've missed that opportunity, regardless of which side of the issue our new President takes on it

I think it would have to be one of the core members making these threats for real movement to occur, because I have a harder time seeing the League collectively trying to save Fordham vs. trying to save a Holy Cross or Colgate (as a comparison). Long-term all-sports membership has its benefits in this kind of environment. I am, and will remain, an optimist, but that's just a part of my nature more than any kind of real inside information. I hope that a deal will be struck and that scholarships can be added as well as keeping a fine institution like Fordham in the PL

I've been on the scholarship bandwagon for a while now. If we were going to hold off on it across the board as we had been prior to 2003/4 (whenever we began actually issuing the scholarships in other sports), then that you can at least argue was institutional consistency. Now, giving the scholarships in every other sport (or at least, being allowed to), if Football truly holds the place at Colgate that I think it does (that is, our keystone Fall sport), then anything less than scholarships at this point is a bad decision

[Fordham]

Yes, I am. But it appears that Fordham wants it one way when it is in terms of intra-divisional play ("give us scholarships, and we can compete with Delaware and Villanova") but seems to ignore the inter-divisional play ("how can Georgetown compete with Fordham with 20 scholarships when they have 58").

Either the scholarships are going to help immensely with competitiveness vs. (say) Hofstra - but if that's the case, then it should "hurt" PL schools who choose to fund less than 58 scholarships. I understand this point completely and there's definitely validity to it but inherent in this discussion is a recognition that moving to scholarships provides more bang for the buck. This means that Georgetown becomes more competitive with 22 scholarships than it does with 22 equivalencies and so on throughout the league.

It would really be sad if the league were to pass up on something that raises the competitiveness of every program just because the schools that spend the most might see even more improvement than those that don't.

There is no other single issue that effects the quality of play without violating league principles and without requiring additional spending and that helps every program out. It certainly is no panacea but find me another issue that meets THAT criteria of improving play, not violating league principles and not costing any more money.


Instructive here is the lesson of PL basketball. Scholarships were instituted in 1998 after Fordham left and Holy Cross, Army and Navy threatened to bolt. Holy Cross and Colgate went to scholarship right away, and Lehigh went to "sort-of" scholarship. (Army and Navy are "scholarship" in that their education is free, repayable through academy service, and American was full scholly when they entered the league.) It took ten years for the rest of the league (the last school being Lafayette) to finally accept basketball scholarships - and even now there are schools that don't issue the full allotment.

You can take the lesson from that experience that scholarships attract a better academic qualifier than need-based aid. You can also take the lesson that you need to spend more on scholarships in order to even have a prayer of competing. You're saying that Lafayette didn't have any success until they starting offer MORE scholarships? I thought the problem with Lafayette lagging behind is that they chose to not offer them at all? If so, that's a huge mischaracterization of the issue.

*****


Look, let me be clear here: I want football scholarships for the PL. It will raise the academic profile of the league, allow the PL to get football players they are currently losing to the Ivy League, and given that the rest of the PL is scholarship, PL football is the victim, IMO, of financial aid discrimination. But that's not to say that I think the expected counterarguments are completely without merit.

Would I like to see them all at 58 scholarships, playing a tough OOC schedule and some making deep runs in the playoffs? Absolutely. But you HAVE to ask the questions: What would Georgetown do? What would Bucknell do? What would Holy Cross do? As bad as it would be to lose Fordham (and believe me, IMO it would be a terrible blow to the league), it would be equally as bad or worse to see Georgetown, Holy Cross and/or Bucknell fold their programs over this. I don't know if it would come to that. But you can't dismiss that out-of-hand as an outlandish.
I can't believe that this basically comes down to a point being made that although every program benefits, it benefits the programs who spend more and therefore we won't do it.

We've now stripped away the mirage of 'philosophy' and that of 'increased costs' and all that we're really left with at the end of day as a reason to not go scholarship is jealousy that not all programs will improve at the same rate even though all will improve. Again, if the Pl votes against scholarships in the name of 'league-parity', when can we expect the league funding check to come in to put our facilities on par with you guys and Lafayette? All things equal, right?

Should be an interesting day tomorrow.

[Fordham]

Where does Frank McLaughlin fit into those decisions?

He reports into Gray. I'm sure his opinion is listened to but Gray's support is much more important.

[ngineer]

There is nothing saying that the Fordham/Columbia game would be concluded. But certainly Columbia would have to re-evaluate their relationship if Fordham is an independent. Maybe they'd decide to continue the rivalry, I'm not sure - but Dartmouth is trying frantically to detach themselves from the UNH game since the games are so out of hand - certainly that example will be brought up.

IMO, the talk about "principle" is the historic one - would it be the "final" compromise to the "ideals" of the Patriot League (and, sotto voce, the Ivy League agreement of 1948)? If the PL goes with scholarships, exactly how different would the PL be from, say, the CAA, Big Sky or others? Would the "special relationship" with the Ivy League disappear? Etc. I'm not saying I agree with this argument, but IMO it is one that will come up.

The talk of costs is real. Fordham, of course, is at 58 equivalencies now, so for the Rams changing to scholarships is one of mere accounting and increasing the number of athletes you can offer without going through the athletic aid office. But for other schools in the league it's not that simple since they're not at 58 scholarships now. Yes, all the schools could simply choose to fund their current equivalency numbers as scholarships. But the question becomes one of competitiveness: would it start an arms race that would force the teams not at 58 to fund more scholarships in order to stay competitive?

Fordham faces no additional costs associated with this shift. But other schools will in some way or another need to add more expenses in order to stay competitive (through more scholarships, whether rising from 20 or 50 to a number that's closer to 58). And that's where Title IX comes in - any increase will also involve an associated rise in women's scholarships. And that's an awfully challenging argument to make when the PL is taking moves to cut costs in all other sports.

It's sort of disingenuous of you to claim on the one hand that scholarships are the cure to what ails Fordham - but then to turn around and claim that all the rest of the schools will need to do to "keep up" is to simply also switch to scholarships too but keep funding on the same level.

Again, this isn't my opinion, but I do know that these arguments will come up - and they will need an effective counterargument if there's a hope to stay in the league. Just saying "f*** you, ratchet up your spending or we're gone, trust us, it's great for the league" isn't a strategy for staying.


That's the point I mentioned last week. While theoretically no more money would be spent on scholarships versus current grants in aid, without the need-based formula restraining what a student can be offered and pressure to offer 'more' than what could be offered under the formula is what will cause higher expenses---or stand still and get left behind. In today's economic environment, I fear that will be the deciding factor.

[Go...gate]

There is nothing saying that the Fordham/Columbia game would be concluded. But certainly Columbia would have to re-evaluate their relationship if Fordham is an independent. Maybe they'd decide to continue the rivalry, I'm not sure - but Dartmouth is trying frantically to detach themselves from the UNH game since the games are so out of hand - certainly that example will be brought up.

IMO, the talk about "principle" is the historic one - would it be the "final" compromise to the "ideals" of the Patriot League (and, sotto voce, the Ivy League agreement of 1948)? If the PL goes with scholarships, exactly how different would the PL be from, say, the CAA, Big Sky or others? Would the "special relationship" with the Ivy League disappear? Etc. I'm not saying I agree with this argument, but IMO it is one that will come up.

The talk of costs is real. Fordham, of course, is at 58 equivalencies now, so for the Rams changing to scholarships is one of mere accounting and increasing the number of athletes you can offer without going through the athletic aid office. But for other schools in the league it's not that simple since they're not at 58 scholarships now. Yes, all the schools could simply choose to fund their current equivalency numbers as scholarships. But the question becomes one of competitiveness: would it start an arms race that would force the teams not at 58 to fund more scholarships in order to stay competitive?

Fordham faces no additional costs associated with this shift. But other schools will in some way or another need to add more expenses in order to stay competitive (through more scholarships, whether rising from 20 or 50 to a number that's closer to 58). And that's where Title IX comes in - any increase will also involve an associated rise in women's scholarships. And that's an awfully challenging argument to make when the PL is taking moves to cut costs in all other sports.

It's sort of disingenuous of you to claim on the one hand that scholarships are the cure to what ails Fordham - but then to turn around and claim that all the rest of the schools will need to do to "keep up" is to simply also switch to scholarships too but keep funding on the same level. I think you're missing the perspective of the other schools. Everyone wants to compete - but IMHO there is a concern that this will be an arms race.

Again, this isn't my opinion, but I do know that these arguments will come up - and they will need an effective counterargument if there's a hope to stay in the league. Just saying "f*** you, ratchet up your spending or we're gone, trust us, it's great for the league" isn't a strategy for staying.

I think you mean 1954, by the way.

[bison137]

]
Instructive here is the lesson of PL basketball. Scholarships were instituted in 1998 after Fordham left and Holy Cross, Army and Navy threatened to bolt. Holy Cross and Colgate went to scholarship right away, and Lehigh went to "sort-of" scholarship. It took ten years for the rest of the league (the last school being Lafayette) to finally accept basketball scholarships - and even now there are schools that don't issue the full allotment.




One correction. Colgate actually did not approve scholarships for many years in basketball. They were the next-to-last PL school to have them.

[FUrams7]

i called the patriot league offices today.. off the record, a meeting took place yesterday.

a few of the other PL schools are on board with scholly's and others are not. it made me a lil optimistic that a few were on board with Fordham.. no mention which schools for or against.. but reading btwn the lines it seemed 50/50 and they will have a definitive decision in June.

[Franks Tanks]

i called the patriot league offices today.. off the record, a meeting took place yesterday.

a few of the other PL schools are on board with scholly's and others are not. it made me a lil optimistic that a few were on board with Fordham.. no mention which schools for or against.. but reading btwn the lines it seemed 50/50 and they will have a definitive decision in June.

The Patriot League offices are located right here in my office park. Maybe I should stop over and demand details and threaten to stay until I get them.

I would be there for a while.

[Fordham]

The Patriot League offices are located right here in my office par. Maybe I should stop over and demand details and threaten to lot leave until I get them.

I would be there for a while.

go get 'em, Frank. xthumbsupx

... and nice digging, rams7

[LUHawker]

i called the patriot league offices today.. off the record, a meeting took place yesterday.

a few of the other PL schools are on board with scholly's and others are not. it made me a lil optimistic that a few were on board with Fordham.. no mention which schools for or against.. but reading btwn the lines it seemed 50/50 and they will have a definitive decision in June.

Your reading of 50/50 probably makes a lot of sense. It has been widely speculated that Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette are more in the "FOR" camp and Bucknell, Holy Cross and Georgetown are in the "Against" camp. We still don't know what the voting requirements are (simple majority, 2/3rds majority, unanimous) for passing such a measure, but if there are schools against, that would seem to imply that it can't be a unanimous vote (otherwise that school could just say no and its all over - no need for further discussion or a June decision). So if it is a simple majority, the votes may already be there, but I suspect that is not the case either. If, in fact, Fordham, Lehigh, Colgate and Lafayette are in favor, that is a 57% FOR vote. If only 2/3rds are needed, and my prior assumption is correct, then just getting Bucknell or HC to move would do the trick. We'll see.

[Ken_Z]

It has been widely speculated that Colgate, Lehigh and Lafayette are more in the "FOR" camp and Bucknell, Holy Cross and Georgetown are in the "Against" camp.


if Colgate, Lehigh and Laf all are strongly in favor, i believe Bucknell will go along.

[Ken_Z]

i don't read anything vaguely resembling legalese very well, but here's what i got out of the PL policy and procedures manual:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/policy-manual.pdf

Voting Regular and associate member institutions shall vote and participate in the
activities of the League through their respective duly appointed and authorized
representatives to the Council of Presidents, the Policy Committee, the Committee on
Athletic Administration, and other established committees of the League. On matters in
which the representative of an associate member is granted the right to vote, each
regular and associate member shall have one vote. [June 2002]

A. Any amendments to the Operating Bylaws require a majority vote of all
members. According to Robert’s Rules of Order, a majority of eight (8)
members will require five (5) affirmative votes.

B. Any amendments to the Constitutional Bylaws require a 2/3 vote of all member
institutions, not only those present at the meeting of the Council of Presidents.
In other words, six (6) affirmative votes are required.
Therefore, any actions of our governing committees such as the Committee on Athletic
Administration, Policy Committee and the Council of Presidents will require the
requisite number of votes to approve an Operating or Constitutional Bylaw.


Furthermore, it appears that football merit aid pollicy is governed under Operational Bylaws, so a simple majority vote.

OPERATIONAL BYLAWS

Collectively, student-athletes receiving financial aid shall be academically
representative of the student body of the institution.

3. Merit Awards-Academic and Athletic Student-athletes receiving academic and
athletic merit awards should collectively reflect the academic qualifications consistent
with the profile of their entering class. The Council of Presidents (in consultation with
the Policy Committee) will develop standards for determining whether this requirement
has been satisfied and for enforcing compliance with it.

A. Sports other than Football: Consistent with the above principles, and at the
discretion of the member institution, student-athletes in all sports other than
football may be granted academic or athletic merit-based financial aid awards.
All student-athletes receiving merit awards above need, shall be reported
annually, along with their academic index, to the Executive Director for review
by the Policy Committee at its spring meeting.

B. Football: In the sport of football, student-athletes may not be awarded financial
aid based upon athletic ability in excess of demonstrated need (also known as
grants-in-aid). Any football student-athlete receiving an academic merit-based
financial aid award above need should have academic credentials similar to
other students generally receiving academic merit awards at that institution.
They shall be reported bi-annually (every odd numbered year), along with their
academic index, to the Executive Director for review by the Policy Committee
at its spring meeting. Further, institutional data on all financial aid offers
(within need and above need) made to incoming student-athletes participating in
football shall be reported to the Executive Director and reviewed by the Policy
Committee at its fall meeting in odd numbered years. Student-athletes receiving
athletic merit-based financial aid awards in sports other than football are not
eligible to participate in Patriot League football.


Still not clear to me who votes, but perhaps all 8 full and both associate members.

I do think if the league were able to get a statement of commitment by a prospective member, contingent on going scholarship, that could get the deal done.

[LUHawker]

i don't read anything vaguely resembling legalese very well, but here's what i got out of the PL policy and procedures manual:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/patr/genrel/auto_pdf/policy-manual.pdf

Voting Regular and associate member institutions shall vote and participate in the
activities of the League through their respective duly appointed and authorized
representatives to the Council of Presidents, the Policy Committee, the Committee on
Athletic Administration, and other established committees of the League. On matters in
which the representative of an associate member is granted the right to vote, each
regular and associate member shall have one vote. [June 2002]

A. Any amendments to the Operating Bylaws require a majority vote of all
members. According to Robert’s Rules of Order, a majority of eight (8)
members will require five (5) affirmative votes.

B. Any amendments to the Constitutional Bylaws require a 2/3 vote of all member
institutions, not only those present at the meeting of the Council of Presidents.
In other words, six (6) affirmative votes are required.
Therefore, any actions of our governing committees such as the Committee on Athletic
Administration, Policy Committee and the Council of Presidents will require the
requisite number of votes to approve an Operating or Constitutional Bylaw.


Furthermore, it appears that football merit aid pollicy is governed under Operational Bylaws, so a simple majority vote.

OPERATIONAL BYLAWS

Collectively, student-athletes receiving financial aid shall be academically
representative of the student body of the institution.

3. Merit Awards-Academic and Athletic Student-athletes receiving academic and
athletic merit awards should collectively reflect the academic qualifications consistent
with the profile of their entering class. The Council of Presidents (in consultation with
the Policy Committee) will develop standards for determining whether this requirement
has been satisfied and for enforcing compliance with it.

A. Sports other than Football: Consistent with the above principles, and at the
discretion of the member institution, student-athletes in all sports other than
football may be granted academic or athletic merit-based financial aid awards.
All student-athletes receiving merit awards above need, shall be reported
annually, along with their academic index, to the Executive Director for review
by the Policy Committee at its spring meeting.

B. Football: In the sport of football, student-athletes may not be awarded financial
aid based upon athletic ability in excess of demonstrated need (also known as
grants-in-aid). Any football student-athlete receiving an academic merit-based
financial aid award above need should have academic credentials similar to
other students generally receiving academic merit awards at that institution.
They shall be reported bi-annually (every odd numbered year), along with their
academic index, to the Executive Director for review by the Policy Committee
at its spring meeting. Further, institutional data on all financial aid offers
(within need and above need) made to incoming student-athletes participating in
football shall be reported to the Executive Director and reviewed by the Policy
Committee at its fall meeting in odd numbered years. Student-athletes receiving
athletic merit-based financial aid awards in sports other than football are not
eligible to participate in Patriot League football.


Still not clear to me who votes, but perhaps all 8 full and both associate members.

I do think if the league were able to get a statement of commitment by a prospective member, contingent on going scholarship, that could get the deal done.

Nice work Z.

From that I interpret that a majority of 4 votes out of 7 would be needed to make an Operational change to football. Since the topic of aid is in the Operational Bylaws section, I think only football members need to vote. If this is in fact the case, I now feel more optimistic that this can get passed.

I handicap it as follows:

Definite in favor: Fordham

Likely in favor: Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh

Likely against: Bucknell and Holy Cross

Against: Georgetown

I'm sure that DFW will rail against that last one telling me to show him the evidence, but I'm going purely on inference and commitment to football to date.

[Go...gate]

if Colgate, Lehigh and Laf all are strongly in favor, i believe Bucknell will go along.


Agreed. Those four are pretty much joined at the hip.

[DFW HOYA]

I handicap it as follows: Definite in favor: Fordham,
Likely in favor: Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh, Likely against: Bucknell and Holy Cross, Against: Georgetown

I'm sure that DFW will rail against that last one telling me to show him the evidence, but I'm going purely on inference and commitment to football to date.

Georgetown has scholarship opportunities in 23 of its sports, more than any other PL school. As a scholarship program in the 1950's, right alongside Fordham and HC, they offered 81 football scholarships. So why do you automatically assume they are always standing in the way?

I have no inside claim of knowledge, so I think Georgetown will go with the flow regardless: for example, if they've got 20 equivalencies and the PL stays status quo, they've got 20. If Fordham gets scholarships, they've still got the 20. Forty scholarships at $50,000 each don't magically appear under either circumstance.

So here's my two cents:


Definite in favor: Fordham
Likely in favor: Colgate, Lehigh
On the Fence: Lafayette
Likely against: Bucknell, Georgetown
Against: Holy Cross

[Go...gate]

Georgetown has scholarship opportunities in 23 of its sports, more than any other PL school. As a scholarship program in the 1950's, right alongside Fordham and HC, they offered 81 football scholarships. So why do you automatically assume they are always standing in the way?

Right. Like Fordham, Georgetown was every bit the big-time program in those days.

[Fordham]

Georgetown has scholarship opportunities in 23 of its sports, more than any other PL school. As a scholarship program in the 1950's, right alongside Fordham and HC, they offered 81 football scholarships. So why do you automatically assume they are always standing in the way?

I have no inside claim of knowledge, so I think Georgetown will go with the flow regardless: for example, if they've got 20 equivalencies and the PL stays status quo, they've got 20. If Fordham gets scholarships, they've still got the 20. Forty scholarships at $50,000 each don't magically appear under either circumstance.

So here's my two cents:


Definite in favor: Fordham
Likely in favor: Colgate, Lehigh
On the Fence: Lafayette
Likely against: Bucknell, Georgetown
Against: Holy Cross

Agreed on the above but I'd handicap it as follows (just based on comments here and elsewhere):

Definite in favor: Fordham
Likely in favor: Colgate
On the Fence: Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell
Likely against: Georgetown
Against: Holy Cross

Vote comes down to the fence sitters.

[ngineer]

Agreed on the above but I'd handicap it as follows (just based on comments here and elsewhere):

Definite in favor: Fordham
Likely in favor: Colgate
On the Fence: Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell
Likely against: Georgetown
Against: Holy Cross

Vote comes down to the fence sitters.

Time for "Pickett's Charge"...Where's Citdog when we need him?:D

[Pard 82]

[/U][/I][/B]

Time for "Pickett's Charge"...Where's Citdog when we need him?:D

Hopefully, it won't work out like the real one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickett's_Charge

[carney2]

As much as it galls me to say it, we are apparently indebted to KenZ for at least partially leading us out of the bureaucratic wilderness. We now know or can infer with some certainty:

Athletic grants-in-aid fall into the section "Operational Bylaws."

As such, a simple majority vote is required to change the rules.

What we don't know is who will be voting.

Is it the football only schools? If yes, there are 7, and 4 votes would be required to approve football scholarships. Most of us believe that there are currently only 2 solidly in this camp.

Is it all Patriot League schools? If yes, there are 10, and 6 votes would be required to approve football scholarships. There are still only a supposed 2 solid "yes" votes. These waters are very muddy because none of us can guess where the 3 non-football schools would fall. It can be argued, for instance, that Army and Navy would vote "yes" because they are already playing at this level, and they might also see a "yes" vote as a vote for league stability. It could also be argued, I guess, that they might vote "no" because they perceive that they might receive unwelcome scheduling pressure from league members once the Patriot League football schools achieve "counter" status. Who knows what agendas these 3 might be carrying around in their briefcases.

In any event, hats off to KenZ for doing the research. I'm filing it under "Even A Blind Bison Finds A Buffalo Chip Once In A While."