Is there any regret about the end of MAAC Football

[Collegefootballfan]

With the recent demise of Iona Football and the end of the MAAC Football
Conference is there any regret on the part of the conference schools on the
end of a once competive league. How are fall weekends now spent on these
campuses. Is there less interest in the schools , has attracting new male
students fallen off. In short what effect has the end had on these programs.
Has anyone taken the time to study in detail how the end came to this conference
and its potential threat to other programs. Its a case study worth looking into
because it could spread to other healthy programs.
What was the real cause of the end. Money, lack of student support , or a bad
business plan. What role did the new NCAA rules have on the programs.
In that matter has there been any if at all concern that D 1 AA football in the
Northeast is struggling to grow and what can be done to correct the problems
that forced a whole conference to drop a sport .
What is the NCAA doing to help. Rule changes etc.
Are there any rumors to get the sport back at any of the schools.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A real interesting post - one with many more questions than answers.

I think the consensus about the death of the MAAC was simply lack of care and feeding by the host institutions - the league offered little guidance for the host schools, and the schools rapidly lost interest in non-scholarship football.

It would be interesting to see how male enrollment and weekends are affected at these schools. I do know at Fairfield there has been an attempt to have some sort of "homecoming"-type activities, but they've fallen pretty far short of football gamedays.

[aceinthehole]

A: Siena is a #9 seed in the NCAA tourney.

How many I-AA football schools get seeds that high? Very few.

The MAAC is a men's basketball league only. That's all they care about and that's where they spend their $$$. They can't compete with the NEC/AE/PL/Ivy in any other sports.

[UAalum72]

Any time I mention football to Siena fans, their response is along the lines of 'Who cares? Do you know how bad the football team was?'

I do. Siena was 11-34 in six years of Division III before the Dayton-rule move to I-AA, after which they were 22-83. In one of their last seasons the football budget was about $200,000. They never played Albany but were regularly beaten by local D-III schools Union and RPI.

There were similar sentiments on the St. Peter's forum - 'drop football to build up basketball'.

The reason is that their administrations didn't care. The MAAC is a basketball conference sponsoring Olympic sports so the schools can play enough of them to maintain Division I status. Most of them are very small without major sports funding. They tried to to sponsor football on the cheap and found that nobody liked the product. Georgetown (before moving to the PL) and Duquesne dominated the standings. Once the league dropped below a critical size it was inevitable that most of the rest would drop football.

[Franks Tanks]

Regret that some kids are no longer able to play to play football in college. Yes the MAAC was largely terrible, but it gave a lot of good kids an opportunity to play football and attend good schools.

[BearsCountry]

How many I-AA football schools get seeds that high? Very few.


See Missouri Valley Conference.

[OLPOP]

See A-10.

[aceinthehole]

The reason is that their administrations didn't care. The MAAC is a basketball conference sponsoring Olympic sports so the schools can play enough of them to maintain Division I status. Most of them are very small without major sports funding. They tried to to sponsor football on the cheap and found that nobody liked the product.

Ain't that the truth!!!! The NEC, which has also has small, private schools at least invests and competes well in other sports. The MAAC is horrible in everything but hoops.

[aceinthehole]

See A-10.

Who?

Xavier is a #4 - but doesn't play FOOTBALL!
Dayton is an #11, but plays football in the PFL.
Temple is also a #11, but plays I-A football in the MAC.

Name me more than 6 different FCS schools that have received a #9 seed or lower in the NCAA tourney in the past 6 years?

Outside of Villanova and Georgetown who are in BCS conferences, but play football as affiliates in a I-AA conference, not many teams come to mind.

[aceinthehole]

See Missouri Valley Conference.

MVC does have a few very good hoops teams recently, but how many also play football? Creighton and Wichita State don't count.

[danefan]

Here's a related question that I don't have the time to look up:

What is the highest seeded (NCAA bball tourney) that a scholarship FCS football playing member has receieved? (exlcuding G'Town and Nova who play in BCS basketball conferences).

[otto4pres]

Addition by subtraction.

[danefan]

Here's a related question that I don't have the time to look up:

What is the highest seeded (NCAA bball tourney) that a scholarship FCS football playing member has receieved? (exlcuding G'Town and Nova who play in BCS basketball conferences).

Southern Illinous was a 7 in 2005 and a 4 in 2007.

[brownbear]

Southern Illinous was a 7 in 2005.

And a 4 seed in 2007

[aceinthehole]

SIU is one of the I-AA teams that have gotten low seed in March.

UMass and URI have both been seeded very low, but not too recently.

[GannonFan]

Who?

Xavier is a #4 - but doesn't play FOOTBALL!
Dayton is an #11, but plays football in the PFL.
Temple is also a #11, but plays I-A football in the MAC.

Name me more than 6 different FCS schools that have received a #9 seed or lower in the NCAA tourney in the past 6 years?

Outside of Villanova and Georgetown who are in BCS conferences, but play football as affiliates in a I-AA conference, not many teams come to mind.


MVC does have a few very good hoops teams recently, but how many also play football? Creighton and Wichita State don't count.

Did you already know the answer as there have been 6 FCS teams with seeds in the top 8 over the past 6 years (Dayton was a #4 in '03, SIU was a #7 in '05, Butler was a #5 and SIU was a #4 in '07, Butler was a #7 and Drake a #5 in '08). Obviously SIU plays football in the MVC, as does UNI (who was a #10 seed in '06).

[UCAMonkey]

Here's a related question that I don't have the time to look up:

What is the highest seeded (NCAA bball tourney) that a scholarship FCS football playing member has receieved? (exlcuding G'Town and Nova who play in BCS basketball conferences).

I believe UMASS was 1 or 2 seed when Calipari was there.

Rhode Island & Indiana State were pretty high in past tourneys.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Who?

Xavier is a #4 - but doesn't play FOOTBALL!
Dayton is an #11, but plays football in the PFL.
Temple is also a #11, but plays I-A football in the MAC.

Name me more than 6 different FCS schools that have received a #9 seed or lower in the NCAA tourney in the past 6 years?

Outside of Villanova and Georgetown who are in BCS conferences, but play football as affiliates in a I-AA conference, not many teams come to mind.

What GF said. And you can add Bucknell to that list, who was a No. 9 seed in 2006 (or 2005) and beat Arkansas that year (and lost to Memphis in the second round). And URI was a 9 seed, too.

If you go back through the years of the modern NCAA tournament since the I-A/I-AA split, there are plenty more: Penn, Princeton, Richmond, UMass, Indiana State, Western Kentucky. And that's just off the top of my head.

[aceinthehole]

Did you already know the answer as there have been 6 FCS teams with seeds in the top 8 over the past 6 years (Dayton was a #4 in '03, SIU was a #7 in '05, Butler was a #5 and SIU was a #4 in '07, Butler was a #7 and Drake a #5 in '08). Obviously SIU plays football in the MVC, as does UNI (who was a #10 seed in '06).

SIU and Butler have each done it twice. G-town and 'Nova have also done it multiple times. Dayton and Drake did it once.

1. 'Nova
2. G-town
3. SIU
4. Butler
5. Dayton
6. Drake

And of these 6 schools, just 2 schools ('Nova nad SIU) play at the FCS full scaholarship limit.

My point is there is a very small club of I-AA football schools who have recently received low seeds (#8 or better) in the hoopstourney. For the most part, FCS schools aren't "major players" in basketball. Of course there are always a few, limted exceptions.

Its my contention that MAAC schools wish to be "major players" in hoops and saw no FCS football as a drain on limited resources. So to answer the original questions posed in the thread - no, I don't think the MAAC has any regrets . Certainly, Siena doesn't care about the loss of football.

[aceinthehole]

I believe UMASS was 1 or 2 seed when Calipari was there.

Rhode Island & Indiana State were pretty high in past tourneys.

Again, not recently. UMass final Four (which is technicall vacated for NCAA violations) was almost 20 years ago!

[aceinthehole]

What GF said. And you can add Bucknell to that list, who was a No. 9 seed in 2006 (or 2005) and beat Arkansas that year (and lost to Memphis in the second round). And URI was a 9 seed, too.

If you go back through the years of the modern NCAA tournament since the I-A/I-AA split, there are plenty more: Penn, Princeton, Richmond, UMass, Indiana State, Western Kentucky. And that's just off the top of my head.

Bucknell is a good one.

The Ivy and Umass was in another time. FCS schjools struggle to have a major impact in basketball.

These examples are few and far between.

[BearsCountry]

Again, not recently. UMass final Four (which is technicall vacated for NCAA violations) was almost 20 years ago!

UMass final four was in 1996.

[Chi-towngrizzly]

A: Siena is a #9 seed in the NCAA tourney.

How many I-AA football schools get seeds that high? Very few.

The MAAC is a men's basketball league only. That's all they care about and that's where they spend their $$$. They can't compete with the NEC/AE/PL/Ivy in any other sports.

Why even ask the question when every team that qualifies as an FCS team with a past high seed you're just going squeal "THAT DON'T COUNT"? It's really annoying.

You moved the bar from FCS teams, to FCS teams that have the same bb and fb conferences, to full scholarship fcs teams. Then, you say UMASS was 20 years ago when it was only 13. And now SIU is the only team that counts by your definition

Has it occurred to you that FCS conferences are mid-major by definition?

Since when was a 9 seed anything special? Way to shoot for the stars.

Enjoy that 9 seed.

[Collegefootballfan]

Guys ,Guys !!!!
Lets get back on track the post was not about what schools had good basketball teams.
It was why northeast university's in this case the former MAAC cannot afford or want to
support football programs . An what effect has it had on the college's that dropped thier programs are the school less appealing to new students , has donations suffered,
have interest in the schools gone down.
Further what is the NCAA doing about it.
It is a shame that a smaller school like ANNA MARIA College in ma can start a program
and a whole d3 conference can be started the NAC ,but a major conference has to
drop theres. There is something wrong. If it is the rules then they should be changed.
I assume we all have a love of college football so any school or organization that
stands in the way of promoting the sport has to be looked at.
Has the issue ever come in NCAA discussions that they have lost a whole coinference
and maybe some one should look into why.
I think some sort of conference should be held to look at the overall health of football
in general and then focus on how to get Northeast football back on track.
An guys let constrain ourselves on the main issue and not who has the better
basketball program . or what program has the better physic lab or social standing.
The issue is the servival of Northeast Football and how we can make it stronger.

[GaelsFootball]

When Coach called a meeting with the parents this past season due to the rumors floating around...he was told by Fairfield's AD personally that dropping football was a very bad decision for the athletic program and the school over there and one in which they haven't fully recovered from. I don't know why or how but that is what I was told.
I was told personally from the AD here at Iona that the only reason we dropped was because other MAAC schools dropped and the school didn't want to support a program which would have to increase its budget to stay indy or join Pioneer. He told me, "if there was still a MAAC conference we wouldn't be having this meeting today." So I feel very confident that if the MAAC was on its deathbed today (4-5 team conference), that Iona would still have football today.
I am fairly confident that the school will feel the long term effects of dropping two major male athletic programs within a 10 year period and the negative effects it will have on their male enrollment.
This is Iona's story...I can't speak about anyone else's program.

[DetroitFlyer]

Guys ,Guys !!!!
Lets get back on track the post was not about what schools had good basketball teams.
It was why northeast university's in this case the former MAAC cannot afford or want to
support football programs . An what effect has it had on the college's that dropped thier programs are the school less appealing to new students , has donations suffered,
have interest in the schools gone down.
Further what is the NCAA doing about it.
It is a shame that a smaller school like ANNA MARIA College in ma can start a program
and a whole d3 conference can be started the NAC ,but a major conference has to
drop theres. There is something wrong. If it is the rules then they should be changed.
I assume we all have a love of college football so any school or organization that
stands in the way of promoting the sport has to be looked at.
Has the issue ever come in NCAA discussions that they have lost a whole coinference
and maybe some one should look into why.
I think some sort of conference should be held to look at the overall health of football
in general and then focus on how to get Northeast football back on track.
An guys let constrain ourselves on the main issue and not who has the better
basketball program . or what program has the better physic lab or social standing.
The issue is the servival of Northeast Football and how we can make it stronger.


The NCAA does not give a rat's a$$. In fact, the NCAA, (like many on this board), would love to figure out a way to kill "non-athletic" scholarship FCS football. The bottom line is that they just cannot figure out a way to do it just yet.... The so called "Dayton Rule" backfired on the NCAA when the MAAC and PFL decided to use the Ivy League model and thumb their nose at the NCAA's desire for ATHLETIC scholarship football only! The "powerful" Ivy League certainly stands in the way, and the PFL has proven that it has staying power in spite of the NCAA's best back door attempts to kill the conference. The NCAA did succeed in destroying the MAAC.

It is not just random chance that the PFL, (as was the MAAC), is specifically excluded from the FCS playoffs. Nor is it random chance that FBS schools cannot count a win against a PFL, PL, (for the most part), NEC, or Ivy League program towards their bowl eligibiity.... Heck, every couple of years the terrible OVC tries to push through a "rule" that you must provide a certain minimum number of ATHLETIC scholarships to even be a member of FCS.... Do ya think that just maybe the NEC had to make some back door promises as to the minimum number of ATHLETIC scholarships they had to grant in order to gain playoff access?

Trust me, if the NCAA could kill once and for all non-ATHLETIC scholarship FCS football, their would be a big party, attended by the majority of members on this board. Bottom line is that you either do it the NCAA's desired way, or you hit the highway, (see demise of MAAC conference).

Frankly, one of the few joys I get out of this whole process is watching the PFL and Ivy League thumb their noses at the NCAA and many here at AGS! Unfortunately, the NCAA and it cronies have just enough power to make sure that conferences like the PFL suffer by the measures mentioned above. I'm sure they hope that one day they will win the war of attrition. I HOPE NOT!

[DFW HOYA]

Fairfield University would be in the PL today if they maintained football.

And how many schools' athletic programs actually get better from the supposed "savings" from football? St. Peter's? Canisius? Texas-Arlington? ETSU? (Sorry, I guess I lost count over the number of basketball bids Boston U. has made in the NCAA thanks to John Silber's largesse.)

But to the post above, the NCAA is not trying to kill off non-scholarship football. The schools are doing it quite nicely for themselves.

[Franks Tanks]

The NCAA does not give a rat's a$$. In fact, the NCAA, (like many on this board), would love to figure out a way to kill "non-athletic" scholarship FCS football. The bottom line is that they just cannot figure out a way to do it just yet.... The so called "Dayton Rule" backfired on the NCAA when the MAAC and PFL decided to use the Ivy League model and thumb their nose at the NCAA's desire for ATHLETIC scholarship football only! The "powerful" Ivy League certainly stands in the way, and the PFL has proven that it has staying power in spite of the NCAA's best back door attempts to kill the conference. The NCAA did succeed in destroying the MAAC.

It is not just random chance that the PFL, (as was the MAAC), is specifically excluded from the FCS playoffs. Nor is it random chance that FBS schools cannot count a win against a PFL, PL, (for the most part), NEC, or Ivy League program towards their bowl eligibiity.... Heck, every couple of years the terrible OVC tries to push through a "rule" that you must provide a certain minimum number of ATHLETIC scholarships to even be a member of FCS.... Do ya think that just maybe the NEC had to make some back door promises as to the minimum number of ATHLETIC scholarships they had to grant in order to gain playoff access?

Trust me, if the NCAA could kill once and for all non-ATHLETIC scholarship FCS football, their would be a big party, attended by the majority of members on this board. Bottom line is that you either do it the NCAA's desired way, or you hit the highway, (see demise of MAAC conference).

Frankly, one of the few joys I get out of this whole process is watching the PFL and Ivy League thumb their noses at the NCAA and many here at AGS! Unfortunately, the NCAA and it cronies have just enough power to make sure that conferences like the PFL suffer by the measures mentioned above. I'm sure they hope that one day they will win the war of attrition. I HOPE NOT!


The Pioneer League may get an autobid if that actually asked for one. What a novel concept apply for soemthing you want, and then get it if qualified!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fairfield University would be in the PL today if they maintained football.

And how many schools' athletic programs actually get better from the supposed "savings" from football? St. Peter's? Canisius? Texas-Arlington? ETSU? (Sorry, I guess I lost count over the number of basketball bids Boston U. has made in the NCAA thanks to John Silber's largesse.)

But to the post above, the NCAA is not trying to kill off non-scholarship football. The schools are doing it quite nicely for themselves.

Excellent points, DFW. Add to this that the basis for this "surge" in "getting better" is the fact that Siena - something like five years after dropping football - is now in the equivalent position as Bucknell in 2005, a No. 9-seed in this year's tournament. It's not like there's been a flood of MAAC teams that are now making Final Four runs as a result of their dropping football. (Or Duquesne or LaSalle out of the A-10, for that matter.)

Pointing to one team and saying that it's a "trend" just is not borne out by facts.

[GannonFan]

The NCAA does not give a rat's a$$. In fact, the NCAA, (like many on this board), would love to figure out a way to kill "non-athletic" scholarship FCS football. The bottom line is that they just cannot figure out a way to do it just yet.... The so called "Dayton Rule" backfired on the NCAA when the MAAC and PFL decided to use the Ivy League model and thumb their nose at the NCAA's desire for ATHLETIC scholarship football only! The "powerful" Ivy League certainly stands in the way, and the PFL has proven that it has staying power in spite of the NCAA's best back door attempts to kill the conference. The NCAA did succeed in destroying the MAAC.

It is not just random chance that the PFL, (as was the MAAC), is specifically excluded from the FCS playoffs. Nor is it random chance that FBS schools cannot count a win against a PFL, PL, (for the most part), NEC, or Ivy League program towards their bowl eligibiity.... Heck, every couple of years the terrible OVC tries to push through a "rule" that you must provide a certain minimum number of ATHLETIC scholarships to even be a member of FCS.... Do ya think that just maybe the NEC had to make some back door promises as to the minimum number of ATHLETIC scholarships they had to grant in order to gain playoff access?

Trust me, if the NCAA could kill once and for all non-ATHLETIC scholarship FCS football, their would be a big party, attended by the majority of members on this board. Bottom line is that you either do it the NCAA's desired way, or you hit the highway, (see demise of MAAC conference).

Frankly, one of the few joys I get out of this whole process is watching the PFL and Ivy League thumb their noses at the NCAA and many here at AGS! Unfortunately, the NCAA and it cronies have just enough power to make sure that conferences like the PFL suffer by the measures mentioned above. I'm sure they hope that one day they will win the war of attrition. I HOPE NOT!

Wow, dude, do you wear the foil hat on your head to make sure the aliens can't read your thoughts, too? xlolx

Outside of that MPLSBison guy, and some people in the OVC, most people, the NCAA included, don't really care one way or the other about non-Athletic scholarship football, at any level. The NCAA didn't want to kill it, it just wanted you guys out of D3 so that you weren't, in theory, getting a competitive advantage from having a DI basketball program. In theory because it never really materialized that way, at least measured by national titles. People are just fine with the way things are - well, most people, you seem to really have some serious issues though. xpeacex

[UAalum72]

The NCAA didn't want to kill it, it just wanted you guys out of D3 so that you weren't, in theory, getting a competitive advantage from having a DI basketball program. In theory because it never really materialized that way, at least measured by national titles.
Well, the 1989 D-III national championship football game was D-I Wagner vs. D-I Dayton.


And how many schools' athletic programs actually get better from the supposed "savings" from football? St. Peter's? Canisius?

Despite Siena's #9 seed, and the MAAC ranking near its all-time peak (#13 RPI, #15 Sagarin), it's still a one-bid basketball league, baseball's about #27, and it's the lowest ranked lacrosse league.

[GannonFan]

Well, the 1989 D-III national championship football game was D-I Wagner vs. D-I Dayton.




Two national titles in two decades was hardly domination, and that was before Mount Union really turned things up a notch.

[Syntax Error]

I worked on the SAVE SIENA FOOTBALL committee. I feel regret that non-scholarship D-I football has been forced to bite the dust in the NE, often done shadily in the middle of the night without notice.
A: Siena is a #9 seed in the NCAA tourney.
How many I-AA football schools get seeds that high?Sadly, Siena doesn't sponsor FCS ball anymore.

[Collegefootballfan]

Several things to comment on.
Why is the NCAA opposed to non -scholly football, after all the more
schools that play football the more money they make in fees and dues or am I
wrong.
Also the college football coaches assoc would or should be for it because
the more coaches employed the better opportunities for there member
plus income from dues.
With every new program that is ever started the common cause is that it
will bring added exposure to the school, will lift inrollment, alumni support
will increase. etc etc. Anymore reasons look at Old Domm, Lamaar,
Georgia State etc.
So if this is true has the reverse been true for schools that have dropped
thier program, is life better for these schools. enrollment dipping,
alumni support dropping off.
For the most part from what I have observed from reading about these
schools is it is like a death in the family has occured and the schools are
not the same . A sense of school spirit and pride has dissapeared
something is missing. and nobody knows or is afraid to mention what.
Back to the point if a school the size like Iona or St Peter or Siena
could compete against the like of Suny Maritime, Anna Maria College
and other NAC schools on the D3 level they should be able to .
Why deprive them the right just because they have a D 1 program
footbal is football . as long as the playing field is level they should
be able to compete.
The restrictions on D1 teams has not worked, it has the opposite
effect. The loss of viable teams. AN the lack of an opportunity
for more coaches and player to experience college football.
Reform the rules , bring back the fun and joy and spirit to
these college and we all be better off.

[MplsBison]

The NCAA isn't opposed to non-scholly football. They have an entire division set up for exactly that: DIII.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Back to the point if a school the size like Iona or St Peter or Siena could compete against the like of Suny Maritime, Anna Maria College and other NAC schools on the D3 level they should be able to. Why deprive them the right just because they have a D 1 program footbal is football . as long as the playing field is level they should be able to compete.

The issue is that the playing field isn't exactly level between D-I non-scholly and D-III, which was why the "Dayton Rule" went into effect. The judgement was that Dayton (and Drake, and other schools) who were D-I in all other sports but D-III in football had other benefits to being a Division I institution that were not shared by D-III schools. For example, I'm pretty sure Wisconsin-Whitewater wouldn't invite football recruits on a visit to watch a men's basketball game - but at Dayton, they do exactly that (and watch a NCAA D-I-tourney-caliber team, too, something that W-W cannot do).

Not to say it's wrong - it's not. But in the minds of the NCAA, it's not a level playing field.


The restrictions on D1 teams has not worked, it has the opposite effect. The loss of viable teams. AN the lack of an opportunity for more coaches and player to experience college football. Reform the rules , bring back the fun and joy and spirit to these college and we all be better off.

I don't disagree with that assessment at all. I'm all for viable football teams anywhere. But what do D-III coaches think? I suspect they're in no hurry to see Dayton back - matter of fact, didn't they vote down a proposal to have FCS non-schollies participate in their playoffs?

[Model Citizen]

For example, I'm pretty sure Wisconsin-Whitewater wouldn't invite football recruits on a visit to watch a men's basketball game - but at Dayton, they do exactly that (and watch a NCAA D-I-tourney-caliber team, too, something that W-W cannot do).

Whatever the D-III football recruiting rules were at the time, they applied to Whitewater, Dayton, and San Diego equally.

[DFW HOYA]

Why is the NCAA opposed to non -scholly football, after all the more schools that play football the more money they make in fees and dues or am I wrong.

How exactly is the NCAA opposing football at American, Bradley, Wichita St., Providence, etc?

[PeacockRaider]

I for one regret SPC dropping football, but sadly Im probably in the minority. The problem at SPC was a stranglehold the previous President had put on the whole athletic program. By the time SPC got a new Prez and AD it was too late to save football as Maac football was dead and SPC whole athletic dept needed to be upgraded. Coach Stern was successfull and was willing to take the program to the next level (10-1 in 2001)but got no support from the administration. If the current Prez and AD were in place in 2001 SPC may still have fb today. SPC is begining to turn athletics around however football will never be brought back, most diehard alumni only care about bb.

[DFW HOYA]

Some of these schools aren't anti-football, but the level of interest in their sports programs are marginal. If St. Peter's or Canisius dropped all sports, how many students would care?

[PeacockRaider]

DFW you aren't far off...Problem at Saint Peter's was Father Loughran...He was Prez from about 1990-2006 and if it was up to him he would've ended athletics at SPC altogether. As a result the athletic program fell way behind everyone else. To be successfull during that time you had to be very creative. Therefore most athletic teams suffered...creating disinterest among students...which leaves them where they are today...The new AD and Prez are making strives to improve athletics but with a small school with a small budget things will not change over time. Another point SPC enrolls about 3000 undergrad, but of those about 1000 live on campus, so there is a huge student body to begin with.

That is my short version :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As bad as St. Peter's, Iona, etc. have been of late in basketball, their identity as a D-I institution is very much wrapped up in men's basketball. St. Peter's is wrapped up in their many visits to the NIT, and Iona has made the men's tourney many times and given the big boys a hard time. Fairfield and Canisius probably have similar stories.

This had to have been a conscious decision by the MAAC presidents, certainly, starting in the late 1990's as the Patriot League (and, to a lesser extent, the Ivy League) as the PL and IL football teams started to look a lot less like St. Peter's and a lot more like Furman. The MAAC was interested in cheap football. When the "price" got higher, they decided to de-emphasize.

This hasn't been talked about much in this thread, but Georgetown leapt to the Patriot League in the nick of time to save their program in retrospect. Other schools had the opportunity to spend only marginally more on football and survive in the PL, but none of the MAAC schools took up the same opportunity that Georgetown did. I'm sure (and DFW seems to agree) that other MAAC schools would have been welcome as football-only members in the PL - certainly Fairfield would have been, and maybe too a Siena or Canisius.

[UAalum72]

I don't know about Canisius and Fairfield, but there's no way a football-only Siena would have been welcome anywhere except a bare-bones MAAC, unless they committed to actually funding the program. High schools for 'home' fields, fewer than normal coaches. They put warm bodies on the field and that was about it.

[JD51]

As bad as St. Peter's, Iona, etc. have been of late in basketball, their identity as a D-I institution is very much wrapped up in men's basketball. St. Peter's is wrapped up in their many visits to the NIT, and Iona has made the men's tourney many times and given the big boys a hard time. Fairfield and Canisius probably have similar stories.

This had to have been a conscious decision by the MAAC presidents, certainly, starting in the late 1990's as the Patriot League (and, to a lesser extent, the Ivy League) as the PL and IL football teams started to look a lot less like St. Peter's and a lot more like Furman. The MAAC was interested in cheap football. When the "price" got higher, they decided to de-emphasize.

This hasn't been talked about much in this thread, but Georgetown leapt to the Patriot League in the nick of time to save their program in retrospect. Other schools had the opportunity to spend only marginally more on football and survive in the PL, but none of the MAAC schools took up the same opportunity that Georgetown did. I'm sure (and DFW seems to agree) that other MAAC schools would have been welcome as football-only members in the PL - certainly Fairfield would have been, and maybe too a Siena or Canisius.

No denying that the MAAC is and always has been a basketball focused conference. There are some sporadic bright spots here and there in lacrosse, swimming and diving, track, etc.., but as aceinthehole stated - “The MAAC is a men's basketball league only. That's all they care about and that's where they spend their $$$. They can't compete with the NEC/AE/PL/Ivy in any other sports.” - is largely true.

Frankly I’m surprised that Marist chose to maintain football with the MAAC’s demise and I wonder if it is a strategy to eventually switch conferences in all sports. Naturally they’d have to $upport football to a greater degree if they were ever to leave the PFL, but the only stand out for the school in recent years has been women’s basketball. I wonder how much of the decision to maintain football was based on the lessons learned from Fairfield’s decision to drop football (and hockey) which – as I believe you have postulated in the past – cost them an invitation to the PL.

[DFW HOYA]

The MAAC doesn't spend across the board. From the Basketball State web site, here's where MAAC schools rank in Div. I athletic spending (by point of comparison, Georgetown is 75th, Fordham 117)

165 Fairfield
187 Loyola
226 Rider
251 Niagara
254 Siena
267 Canisius
270 Marist
289 Manhattan
325 St. Peter's

SPC can't be that focused on basketball bids. Their last NIT bid was in 1989, and their last win was in 1980. As painful as it may be for the SPC administration to admit, their two year football run under Rob Stern was probably the athletic highlight of the last decade.

And how was basketball attendance in their only men's sport of note? The team averaged 935 a game.

[UCAMonkey]

Again, not recently. UMass final Four (which is technicall vacated for NCAA violations) was almost 20 years ago!

The question I was answering did not pertain to the most recent but simply the highest rated and it was not 20 years ago.

To be more fair to the NCAA and their selections the question should be non-BCS leagues and then you may include schools like Gonzaga, Butler, Kent St. etc..

Although there is always room for improvement on their selections I think March Madness is one of the best at choosing the best teams for a tournament championship.

[PeacockRaider]

The MAAC doesn't spend across the board. From the Basketball State web site, here's where MAAC schools rank in Div. I athletic spending (by point of comparison, Georgetown is 75th, Fordham 117)

165 Fairfield
187 Loyola
226 Rider
251 Niagara
254 Siena
267 Canisius
270 Marist
289 Manhattan
325 St. Peter's

SPC can't be that focused on basketball bids. Their last NIT bid was in 1989, and their last win was in 1980. As painful as it may be for the SPC administration to admit, their two year football run under Rob Stern was probably the athletic highlight of the last decade.

And how was basketball attendance in their only men's sport of note? The team averaged 935 a game.

DFW I have to defend my school here. I was on the field in 2000 when Bob Benson came over to our huddle after a 16-20 defeat and said "This is why I won't play Saint Peter's anymore". SPC went to the NCAA's in bball in 1995 and had some good runs in the Maac from 2003-2007 Keydren Clark led the NCAA in scoring in 04 and 05...the Wmen BBall dominated the Maac in the late 90's and are again on the upswing. Also SPC 2001 Softball team won the MAAC and lost 3-1 to Jenny Finch and Arizona in the NCAA's. Mens soccer won the MAAC in 03 and beat Brown in the NCAA's before falling to MIchigan, and last year received an at large to the NCAA's.

If Fordham is 117 is bball spending, they are getting ripped off, their bball program sucks. Siena at 254 is a 9 seed in the tourney and avg's 4000 people a game. I know SPC has a long way to go but their athletics as a whole is on the upswing and will only get better. Georgetown while they saved the football program i don't see that it is any better than it was in 2000.

On a side note, for family bragging rights SPC defeated Colgate in Softball today 4-1!

[Go...gate]

Fairfield University would be in the PL today if they maintained football.

And how many schools' athletic programs actually get better from the supposed "savings" from football? St. Peter's? Canisius? Texas-Arlington? ETSU? (Sorry, I guess I lost count over the number of basketball bids Boston U. has made in the NCAA thanks to John Silber's largesse.)

But to the post above, the NCAA is not trying to kill off non-scholarship football. The schools are doing it quite nicely for themselves.

Yes. I believe at one time the PL and Fairfield had such discussions (mid-late 90's). Fairfield's dropping of FB was actually kind of a surprise, because they had made some investment in the sport and the facilities needed.

[Go...gate]

I for one regret SPC dropping football, but sadly Im probably in the minority. The problem at SPC was a stranglehold the previous President had put on the whole athletic program. By the time SPC got a new Prez and AD it was too late to save football as Maac football was dead and SPC whole athletic dept needed to be upgraded. Coach Stern was successfull and was willing to take the program to the next level (10-1 in 2001)but got no support from the administration. If the current Prez and AD were in place in 2001 SPC may still have fb today. SPC is begining to turn athletics around however football will never be brought back, most diehard alumni only care about bb.

How is St. Peter's doing financially? I know a lot of grads from there who really thought the education was great.

[Go...gate]

[QUOTE=JD51;1320449]No denying that the MAAC is and always has been a basketball focused conference. There are some sporadic bright spots here and there in lacrosse, swimming and diving, track, etc.., but as aceinthehole stated - “The MAAC is a men's basketball league only. That's all they care about and that's where they spend their $$$. They can't compete with the NEC/AE/PL/Ivy in any other sports.” - is largely true.

Frankly I’m surprised that Marist chose to maintain football with the MAAC’s demise and I wonder if it is a strategy to eventually switch conferences in all sports. Naturally they’d have to $upport football to a greater degree if they were ever to leave the PFL, but the only stand out for the school in recent years has been women’s basketball. I wonder how much of the decision to maintain football was based on the lessons learned from Fairfield’s decision to drop football (and hockey) which – as I believe you have postulated in the past – cost them an invitation to the PL.

Your point is well taken. I don't know what the PL will do, but if it does not go scholarship, I would wager a few dollars that Marist is going to get very serious consideration.

BTW, not every body has a 3-4000 seat BB arena. Colgate's seat reconfiguration was changed (the bleachers were converted to seats which are easier on the backside) and I believe capacity is now much lower, from 3,000 to maybe 2,000 now (we still don't get many BB spectators, anyway).

[danefan]

DFW I have to defend my school here. I was on the field in 2000 when Bob Benson came over to our huddle after a 16-20 defeat and said "This is why I won't play Saint Peter's anymore". SPC went to the NCAA's in bball in 1995 and had some good runs in the Maac from 2003-2007 Keydren Clark led the NCAA in scoring in 04 and 05...the Wmen BBall dominated the Maac in the late 90's and are again on the upswing. Also SPC 2001 Softball team won the MAAC and lost 3-1 to Jenny Finch and Arizona in the NCAA's. Mens soccer won the MAAC in 03 and beat Brown in the NCAA's before falling to MIchigan, and last year received an at large to the NCAA's.

If Fordham is 117 is bball spending, they are getting ripped off, their bball program sucks. Siena at 254 is a 9 seed in the tourney and avg's 4000 people a game. I know SPC has a long way to go but their athletics as a whole is on the upswing and will only get better. Georgetown while they saved the football program i don't see that it is any better than it was in 2000.

On a side note, for family bragging rights SPC defeated Colgate in Softball today 4-1!

I think the spending he is referring to is all sports spending, but I might be wrong. I can't imagine Siena is 254 in bball spending alone. They spend about $2 million a year on basketball. They don't spend crap on any other sports though.

They say that they averaged 7200 a game this year (helped of course by the Albany Cup against UA which consistently puts 13,000+ Siena's arena). They might have even made money on Basketball this year.

[PeacockRaider]

How is St. Peter's doing financially? I know a lot of grads from there who really thought the education was great.

I don't know specifics, but I would imagine they are hurting like everyone else these days...The key for SPC will be to position themselves when the economy turns around. Jersey City has had a rebirth of late developing the waterfront and attracting many financial companies from Manhattan. I beleive SPC could really thrive in the coming years if they get support from local business and Jersey City continues to thrive.

BIG Win for the MAAC tonight as THE Siena College takes down Ohio State!

[DFW HOYA]

@Peacock Raider: No knock on SPC, only schools which use the dropping of football as an excuse to "elevate" other programs. Most never do.

SPC's biggest problem is its endowment: estimated at $33 million before the stock crash.

[aceinthehole]

I think the spending he is referring to is all sports spending, but I might be wrong. I can't imagine Siena is 254 in bball spending alone. They spend about $2 million a year on basketball. They don't spend crap on any other sports though.

They say that they averaged 7200 a game this year (helped of course by the Albany Cup against UA which consistently puts 13,000+ Siena's arena). They might have even made money on Basketball this year.

Dane,

I think you're right - that seems to be TOTAL athletic spending, not men's basketball. Many MAAC schools have smaller budgets than many NEC schools, but they sure invest in men's hoops!

I think on average, the MAAC men's basketball budgets are closer to A-10, MVC, CAA levels than NEC/PL/AE/Ivy.

[PeacockRaider]

No problem DFW, you are correct I doubt the fb savings went directly to other programs...I get defensive because SPC is the butt of many jokes despite having had some athletic success. Your endowment estimate is about what I saw on Wikipedia as well. Like I said they key for SPC is going to be taking advantage of the rebirth of Jersey City...if anyone is interested their is a cool historical youtube video highlighting this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-dvvQSN-ZQ
So I am optomistic things will turn around for the school and the athletic program...DFW Im hoping your Hoya's turn their fb program around as well, if the school gets behind the program you guys could be a power in the PL.

[JD51]

A: Siena is a #9 seed in the NCAA tourney.

How many I-AA football schools get seeds that high? Very few.

The MAAC is a men's basketball league only. That's all they care about and that's where they spend their $$$. They can't compete with the NEC/AE/PL/Ivy in any other sports.

I agree that the MAAC is largely a basketball league, but I'm not seeing this huge disparity in competition in other sports (e.g., women's lacrosse, swimming & diving, etc...). Granted, I haven't done a huge amount of looking, but based on what I have seen I don't see the NEC with any great advantage over the MAAC.

[Go...gate]

I don't know specifics, but I would imagine they are hurting like everyone else these days...The key for SPC will be to position themselves when the economy turns around. Jersey City has had a rebirth of late developing the waterfront and attracting many financial companies from Manhattan. I beleive SPC could really thrive in the coming years if they get support from local business and Jersey City continues to thrive.

BIG Win for the MAAC tonight as THE Siena College takes down Ohio State!

Agree wholeheartedly. SPC is, IMO, a highly underrated school in a city which is very much on the way back. I dio a lot of land use work in Hudson County and Jersey City's rise is raising all the municipalities in the county - Hoboken, Weehawken, Union City, North Bergen, West NY, etc.

[crunifan]

I'd rather have football and be a #10 seed in the NCAA tournament, than be without football and be a #9 seed.

The MVC conference is full proof that you can have a successful football and basketball conference simulataneously. SIU, UNI, and Drake (not to mention the mix of private, non football schools of Bradley, Creighton, and Wichita State) are proof of that.

[Shockerman]

MVC does have a few very good hoops teams recently, but how many also play football? Creighton and Wichita State don't count.

Hey, We resemble that remark! We are still fighting the good fight. The economy has derailed us slightly but the move continues. IMO, it will all come down to the next Presdident at WSU. We have a Football friendly AD who is still new on the job (father is well known around town and played in the NFL) so we will see.

[Franks Tanks]

I'd rather have football and be a #10 seed in the NCAA tournament, than be without football and be a #9 seed.

The MVC conference is full proof that you can have a successful football and basketball conference simulataneously. SIU, UNI, and Drake (not to mention the mix of private, non football schools of Bradley, Creighton, and Wichita State) are proof of that.

Ya but 1/2 of the basketball MVC dont play football and vice/versa. UNI and SIU have success in FB and BB, but they are really the only two.

[MplsBison]

Hey, We resemble that remark! We are still fighting the good fight. The economy has derailed us slightly but the move continues. IMO, it will all come down to the next Presdident at WSU. We have a Football friendly AD who is still new on the job (father is well known around town and played in the NFL) so we will see.

Yeah but in a state like Kansas, is WSU trying to be an Indiana State or is it trying to be a Ball State?

[BearsCountry]

Ya but 1/2 of the basketball MVC dont play football and vice/versa. UNI and SIU have success in FB and BB, but they are really the only two.

Maybe in last few years but Illinois State, Indiana State and Missouri State have all had success in both.

[daywoo7]

You guys want to hear something funny?
Last month a few moths after dropping the football team every remaining athlete at Iona College was given a $100 check supposedly for books and clothing, but actually could be used for anything. Thats about $40,000 dollars right there. Greats way to spend the football budget.
I can see the decision to drop football blowing up in Iona's face. They currently have a women's lacrosse game (which is out of season) scheduled for homecoming. The football team drew about 5,000 last year on homecoming, but dont even expect 500 at homecoming this year. As far as being dropped we can look to one person, school president Br. Liguori who has had it out for the football team since he's been there and cutting this team as well as expanding the library are the two things he wanted to do before his upcoming retirement to ensure his "legacy".... aint that a joke.