LFN: Fordham Throws Down the Gauntlet

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/03/fordham-throws-down-gauntlet.html

History is being made - and I write 500 words to try to make sense of all the ramifications.

Interesting times for the Patriot League. Whatever happens, the public debate about abolishing need-based aid for Patriot League football has started. I just hope the Patriot League presidents (or at least their athletic departments) are paying very close attention.

[dgreco]

good read I was waiting for a post about this from you

[danefan]

One thing - I don't think Massella insinuated that they were going to full scholarship in 2009. I thought it was reported that he said they wanted it decided by June 09 and if it didn't pass Fordham would play their 2009 season as is and move on to full scholarship football in 2010.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One thing - I don't think Massella insinuated that they were going to full scholarship in 2009. I thought it was reported that he said they wanted it decided by June 09 and if it didn't pass Fordham would play their 2009 season as is and move on to full scholarship football in 2010.

That may be true - but I'm just going by the chatter, which is the problem with "reporting" on something that is about "chatter" rather than well-placed sources. The quote on the Fordham message board said "Fordham has told the PL we want scholarships instituted leaguewide by June 09", which means that starting with the incoming class of 2014 they would be in place.

[danefan]

That may be true - but I'm just going by the chatter, which is the problem with "reporting" on something that is about "chatter" rather than well-placed sources. The quote on the Fordham message board said "Fordham has told the PL we want scholarships instituted leaguewide by June 09", which means that starting with the incoming class of 2014 they would be in place.

Yes, I agree. But that means no scholarships players on the rosters until 2010 season, right?

[Tribe4SF]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2009/03/fordham-throws-down-gauntlet.html

History is being made - and I write 500 words to try to make sense of all the ramifications.

Interesting times for the Patriot League. Whatever happens, the public debate about abolishing need-based aid for Patriot League football has started. I just hope the Patriot League presidents (or at least their athletic departments) are paying very close attention.

If the PL Presidents get mired in the morass of thinking expressed in your blog, Fordham will be gone by this time next year. Each of them probably knows what they want at this point. The issue is not new, and they now have a timetable to decide whether they retain Fordham as a football member. If history is a teacher, I'm betting the Rams are indy for 2010.

[Ken_Z]

sorry if this was covered elsewhere, but what are the voting bylaws to adopt merit aid?

how many affirmative votes needed? do affiliates get to vote?

thanks,

[colorless raider]

Great question!!

[carney2]

sorry if this was covered elsewhere, but what are the voting bylaws to adopt merit aid?

how many affirmative votes needed? do affiliates get to vote?

thanks,

The only thing that I know has been addressed in another post has to do with whether associates get a vote. The answer is yes in all matters that affect them. In any event, and in my opinion, the vote currently stands:

FOR FOOTBALL SCHOLARSHIPS = 2 (Colgate, Fordham)

AGAINST FOOTBALL SCHOLARSHIPS = 2* (Georgetown, Holy Cross)

UNKNOWN = 3 (Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh)

*I repeat, IN MY OPINION.

By the way, and to reiterate what someone on another post said, the coaches and the ADs will undoubtedly have input, but the decision will be made by the presidents and governing bodies of the schools, based on the wants, needs and relative power bases of their entire constituency. To say "I know our coach is in favor" is totally insufficient here.

[DFW HOYA]

My opinion:

For: 2 (Colgate, Fordham)

Against: 1 (Holy Cross)

Unknown: 4 (Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh, Georgetown)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A couple points:

1) Tribe4SF, are you trying to say I'm long-winded? (Guilty.) xsmiley_wix

Seriously, while it is true that this has been an ongoing discussion and it would seem that everyone knows their position, you have to admit that Fordham is really pushing the issue late in the game. They're giving a body three months to make a decision when it took years to simply reform the AI to make it league-wide. And will that body take kindly to being threatened - by an affiliate to boot?

2) Lost in this discussion is not only the thoughts of the presidents/ADs of the "football seven", but the thoughts up in West Point and down in Annapolis and DC, too, which ought not to be discounted. The USMA/USNA and American's president may not care about Patriot League football one whit, but I'm not so sure. What if they vote the way the wind blows - and Bucknell, G'Town and HC are staunchly opposed? Then it won't pass.

Bottom line is I think it's going to have to be near-unanimous in order to happen. I don't think the other three will stand in the way if it's unanimous, but they might side with "no change" if they don't care very much, or simply want to stick to "principles" in a sport that doesn't affect them.

[Tribe4SF]

A couple points:

1) Tribe4SF, are you trying to say I'm long-winded? (Guilty.) xsmiley_wix

Seriously, while it is true that this has been an ongoing discussion and it would seem that everyone knows their position, you have to admit that Fordham is really pushing the issue late in the game. They're giving a body three months to make a decision when it took years to simply reform the AI to make it league-wide. And will that body take kindly to being threatened - by an affiliate to boot?

2) Lost in this discussion is not only the thoughts of the presidents/ADs of the "football seven", but the thoughts up in West Point and down in Annapolis and DC, too, which ought not to be discounted. The USMA/USNA and American's president may not care about Patriot League football one whit, but I'm not so sure. What if they vote the way the wind blows - and Bucknell, G'Town and HC are staunchly opposed? Then it won't pass.

Bottom line is I think it's going to have to be near-unanimous in order to happen. I don't think the other three will stand in the way if it's unanimous, but they might side with "no change" if they don't care very much, or simply want to stick to "principles" in a sport that doesn't affect them.

I would never say you were long winded!:D

Having followed the PL more closely as a result of your writings, it has seemed to me that the decision making processes of the league move very slowly, and lack transparency. My net take is one of encrusted, ivory tower perspectives that yield confusing pronouncements such as the AI revisions. Even among the loyal PL followers such as yourself, it seems that noone ever really knows what's going on. This take is behind my prediction "based on history" comment in my previous post.

[carney2]

Lost in this discussion is not only the thoughts of the presidents/ADs of the "football seven", but the thoughts up in West Point and down in Annapolis and DC, too, which ought not to be discounted. The USMA/USNA and American's president may not care about Patriot League football one whit, but I'm not so sure. What if they vote the way the wind blows - and Bucknell, G'Town and HC are staunchly opposed? Then it won't pass.

Bottom line is I think it's going to have to be near-unanimous in order to happen. I don't think the other three will stand in the way if it's unanimous, but they might side with "no change" if they don't care very much, or simply want to stick to "principles" in a sport that doesn't affect them.

You bring up an interesting point, LFN. Do the 3 football non-participants have a voice in this decision? Logic would seem to dictate that, since associates get a voice in everything/anything that affects them, non-participants, even though they are full league members, would not have a voice in things that do not affect them. On the other hand, this is the Patriot League and they have not often allowed themselves to be burdened by logic.

Anyway, are we talking 7 potential votes here, or 10?

Oh yeah, I disagree with your "near unanimous" opinion. I harken back to the basketball decision which seemed to be pretty much "Do whatever you want, but bear in mind that some of the schools are determined to go full speed ahead."

[Fordham]

You bring up an interesting point, LFN. Do the 3 football non-participants have a voice in this decision? Logic would seem to dictate that, since associates get a voice in everything/anything that affects them, non-participants, even though they are full league members, would not have a voice in things that do not affect them. On the other hand, this is the Patriot League and they have not often allowed themselves to be burdened by logic.

Anyway, are we talking 7 potential votes here, or 10?

Oh yeah, I disagree with your "near unanimous" opinion. I harken back to the basketball decision which seemed to be pretty much "Do whatever you want, but bear in mind that some of the schools are determined to go full speed ahead."

Both great points. It really would stink to have this thing ready to get done and then a non-football playing school is the one who votes it down.

Regarding the last part - that's exactly what Masella indicated was a likely "stay in the PL" scenario and he referenced their decision on hoops.

[Lehigh74]

Suppose for a minute that the PL says to Fordham we will allow football scholarships provided that you agree to return to the league as a full member. In that scenario what would Fordham do?

[Wildcat80]

The only thing that I know has been addressed in another post has to do with whether associates get a vote. The answer is yes in all matters that affect them. In any event, and in my opinion, the vote currently stands:

FOR FOOTBALL SCHOLARSHIPS = 2 (Colgate, Fordham)

AGAINST FOOTBALL SCHOLARSHIPS = 2* (Georgetown, Holy Cross)

UNKNOWN = 3 (Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh)

*I repeat, IN MY OPINION.

By the way, and to reiterate what someone on another post said, the coaches and the ADs will undoubtedly have input, but the decision will be made by the presidents and governing bodies of the schools, based on the wants, needs and relative power bases of their entire constituency. To say "I know our coach is in favor" is totally insufficient here.

As an outsider to Georgetown football...please explain WHY they play Big East Basketball but are not in favor of scholarship football? This makes little sense to me. Villanova seems to do okay. I have to believe Gtown has an alumni base that can support it. Aren't they remodeling their stadium too?? Of all the PL members they should be leading the charge. Why not??

[Go...gate]

Suppose for a minute that the PL says to Fordham we will allow football scholarships provided that you agree to return to the league as a full member. In that scenario what would Fordham do?

If you read the posters on their other board, it would not be acceptable. Fordham still harbors a desire to be in the highest echelon of Division I basketball.

[RichH2]

FU is still burdened by its dreams of past glory, which I can understand. My Dad played football at FU late 30 early 40s. I applaud their move to improve themselves and the PL,
I am sanquine about any quick movement by the PL. The fallout over the next 2-3 yrs s/b fun

[ngineer]

I find it preposterous that Army, Navy and American would have a vote regarding football financial aid. And Army and Navy ARE FULL SCHOLARSHIP schools...everything is paid for by Uncle Sam, so why would they stand in the way?xconfusedx

[Fordham]

FU is still burdened by its dreams of past glory, which I can understand. My Dad played football at FU late 30 early 40s. I applaud their move to improve themselves and the PL,
I am sanquine about any quick movement by the PL. The fallout over the next 2-3 yrs s/b fun

wow - your dad played at an amazing time. did he get to play in the Sugar Bowl game? Amazing story that I was told from an alum who was in attendance was that at halftime they brought both teams out of the locker rooms and they were sworn into the armed services. A different time and when you hear that story it doesn't seem like a 20 year old now could be the same age as a 20 year old then.

That said, I don't know any Fordham alum who has any delusions or "dreams of past glory". The motivator for most alums is the exact opposite. A fear that a school that spends so much on the sport will decide to pocket that money and drop or fold a program that provides mediocre results. This move helps many of feel like it's a step towards securing or solidifying our team's future. We want a team that can compete with the best of FCS, hopefully compete for a conference championship on a regular basis and also grab a nice FBS money game for us to attend. Nothing more than that unless what I just described is what you meant by "dreams of past glory".

[RichH2]

I think you want what the rest of us want. My greatestfear is aslideto mediocrity by LU and thePL. My Dad went into the army directly from agame at the Stadium from what my Mom told me. But it was exciting times even for a 2nd string OG like my Dad. He loved his time at Fordham as did my Mom.

[ngineer]

wow - your dad played at an amazing time. did he get to play in the Sugar Bowl game? Amazing story that I was told from an alum who was in attendance was that at halftime they brought both teams out of the locker rooms and they were sworn into the armed services. A different time and when you hear that story it doesn't seem like a 20 year old now could be the same age as a 20 year old then.

That said, I don't know any Fordham alum who has any delusions or "dreams of past glory". The motivator for most alums is the exact opposite. A fear that a school that spends so much on the sport will decide to pocket that money and drop or fold a program that provides mediocre results. This move helps many of feel like it's a step towards securing or solidifying our team's future. We want a team that can compete with the best of FCS, hopefully compete for a conference championship on a regular basis and also grab a nice FBS money game for us to attend. Nothing more than that unless what I just described is what you meant by "dreams of past glory".

I am hoping this move benefits us all and forces the dumkoffs at the PL to 'get off the pot' on this issue. As to 'dreams of past glory', hopefully the 'Seven Blocks of Granite' do not become the 'Seven Blocks of Gunite'...;):D

[carney2]

My greatest fear is a slide to mediocrity by LU and the PL.

You missed a word. This sentence should read: "My greatest fear is a continued slide to mediocrity by... the PL."

[carney2]

I find it preposterous that Army, Navy and American would have a vote regarding football financial aid. And Army and Navy ARE FULL SCHOLARSHIP schools...everything is paid for by Uncle Sam, so why would they stand in the way?xconfusedx

I'm not saying they get a vote. I'm not saying they don't. I have no idea what the rules are. I do not, however, find it "preposterous." They are full members and it is not inconceivable that major policy decisions in sports which each of these three do not participate in - particularly a marquis sport such as football - could, even in some indirect way (unforeseen consequences!), affect them. Even if they do not have a vote, I would be very surprised if their opinions are not solicited and their voices heard.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not saying they get a vote. I'm not saying they don't. I have no idea what the rules are. I do not, however, find it "preposterous." They are full members and it is not inconceivable that major policy decisions in sports which each of these three do not participate in - particularly a marquis sport such as football - could, even in some indirect way (unforeseen consequences!), affect them. Even if they do not have a vote, I would be very surprised if their opinions are not solicited and their voices heard.

This is a common occurence, by the way. Remember when the Ivy/non-football were on the I-AA committee to the NCAA and voted down some key legislation? (I think it was regarding allowing a 12th game, which passed through the I-AA subcommittee - then was tabled by their own delegation!)

I will get clarification on the specifics of the voting rights next week for my CSN Way column. But as carney said, to think that the USMA/USNA and American would have no input at all, formal or informal, in the discussion is naive - because what happens in the PL for football DOES affect other sports. Ask the Big East.

[RichH2]

The new landscape in the FCS east mandates that the PL adapt or fade into insignificance.

The IL essentially has an almost full grant program with their tuition assisstance for all students. CAA full scholarship programs . Albany,Monmouyh etc at 40, I think.

Leaves an ever decreasing pool of kids that we can compete successfully for.

Our pool is already quite small given the academic requirements. The alternatives w/o scholarships is grim at best. We win some recruiting battles with each but many less than we lose. The economy is not going to improve markedly for the next year or two and even then we are looking at a few more yrs before we can anticipate any expansion.
Much like the 89-95 era but with more serious systemic problems enabled by the Bush boys. ( I am a bit embarassed to be a Republican now. I came in with Rockefeller). Anyway Limbaugh to the side, out conference must not adopt a do nothing mentality and hope that it will all go away. The IL perhaps can get away with it but we willnot

[RichH2]

An example, Duquesne put up their recruit list.I noticed an OLineman who had been recruited by LU and Colgate but took a schollie with the Dukes. I certainly do not begrudge them the win but if this was a $$ issue it presages what we will face more and more in the future

[ngineer]

An example, Duquesne put up their recruit list.I noticed an OLineman who had been recruited by LU and Colgate but took a schollie with the Dukes. I certainly do not begrudge them the win but if this was a $$ issue it presages what we will face more and more in the future


Duquesne gives 'scholarships' in the sense of NEC? I thought their conference was purely 'grant in aid' base on family income/assets?? I don't disagree that tuition, room and board at Duquesne is a lot cheaper than PL schools, so they would be able to give a greater percentage of the price tag.

[ngineer]

I'm not saying they get a vote. I'm not saying they don't. I have no idea what the rules are. I do not, however, find it "preposterous." They are full members and it is not inconceivable that major policy decisions in sports which each of these three do not participate in - particularly a marquis sport such as football - could, even in some indirect way (unforeseen consequences!), affect them. Even if they do not have a vote, I would be very surprised if their opinions are not solicited and their voices heard.

I should have been a bit more tight in my language...It would be preposterous for Army and/or Navy to object to the PL going to scholarships since they already give all of their athletes a free ride.

[danefan]

Duquesne gives 'scholarships' in the sense of NEC? I thought their conference was purely 'grant in aid' base on family income/assets?? I don't disagree that tuition, room and board at Duquesne is a lot cheaper than PL schools, so they would be able to give a greater percentage of the price tag.

Duquesne gives scholarships.

NEC scholarships are not grant-in-aid. There is no "financial need" component in the NEC anymore. Hasn't been for a few years now.

Each NEC team can offer 34 full scholarships this year.

[carney2]

Not an insignificant factor in all of this is the fact that applications at Lehigh and Lafayette - and I would assume all of the pricey Patriot League schools - are down somewhere in the 14-15% range.

[Fordham]

Not an insignificant factor in all of this is the fact that applications at Lehigh and Lafayette - and I would assume all of the pricey Patriot League schools - are down somewhere in the 14-15% range.
what's the ripple effect you see from that factor?

[bison137]

Not an insignificant factor in all of this is the fact that applications at Lehigh and Lafayette - and I would assume all of the pricey Patriot League schools - are down somewhere in the 14-15% range.


Apps at Bucknell are reportedly down only slightly.

[carney2]

what's the ripple effect you see from that factor?

The foot dragging powers that be have yet another statistic to prove "hard times' and therefore not the time to be implementing costly measures like football scholarships. Hey, true or not, it's an argument that will be made.

[RichH2]

The curmudgeon strikes again. Lu early deposits are the sae as last yr.Actually eco may spur LU to broaden aid as kids start $$ shopping schools.

[carney2]

The curmudgeon strikes again. Lu early deposits are the sae as last yr.Actually eco may spur LU to broaden aid as kids start $$ shopping schools.

Today's (Sunday, 3/8) Allentown Mourning Crawl says Lehigh applications down 14%.

[danefan]

The foot dragging powers that be have yet another statistic to prove "hard times' and therefore not the time to be implementing costly measures like football scholarships. Hey, true or not, it's an argument that will be made.

I still don't understand what cost increase this would have?

If you are now giving the equivalent to 50 full tuition grants to football players than what would the difference be to giving 50 full scholarships?

Massella indicated it wouldn't cost Fordham anything additional.

I think its just a philosophical issue. Not a financial issue.

[MplsBison]

That was how I understood it as well.

They're already giving 57(?) equivalencies, therefore giving 57 scholarships would not cost them any additional money.


As it was aptly explained, this simply allows them to go after the kids they want and offer them the money they want to offer them without any other strings.

[RichH2]

14% is correct, what LU said that early deposits for admission, parents making quicker decisions, is the same as last yr. as has been noted ad nauseum is that schollies will not cost us any add. $, except if we increase number of them. On the other hand that $ will expand the quality of athletes and students ( see Bball) available.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Can't speak for other schools, but Lehigh is also on the hook for a tiny tuition increase. Fewer applications plus a tiny increase in the price... well, you don't need to be a math wiz to figure that out.

[Fordham]

Can't speak for other schools, but Lehigh is also on the hook for a tiny tuition increase. Fewer applications plus a tiny increase in the price... well, you don't need to be a math wiz to figure that out.
Does Lehigh budget for a certain number of equivalencies and therefore the football budget automatically goes up when you have a tuition increase or do they simply have a budget and when tuition goes up you just lost a portion of your equivalencies?

And what is the best-guess number for Lehigh's equivalencies?

[carney2]

Dave Coulson from The Sports Network has weighed in:

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/news/newstest.aspx?id=4217687

He has even hazarded a guess on the voting if you read the article carefully:

FOR SCHOLARSHIPS: Fordham, Colgate

A LUKEWARM MAYBE FOR SCHOLARSHIPS: Lafayette, Lehigh

"RELUCTANT:" Bucknell, Georgetown, Holy Cross

Nothing new or unusual here.

[Fordham]

Dave Coulson from The Sports Network has weighed in:

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/news/newstest.aspx?id=4217687

He has even hazarded a guess on the voting if you read the article carefully:

FOR SCHOLARSHIPS: Fordham, Colgate

A LUKEWARM MAYBE FOR SCHOLARSHIPS: Lafayette, Lehigh

"RELUCTANT:" Bucknell, Georgetown, Holy Cross

Nothing new or unusual here.
Interesting that the only source or reference is the message board community. It's been almost a week, which I would think would be enough to at least get a quote from someone at one of the PL schools or the PL offices, no?

[carney2]

Interesting that the only source or reference is the message board community. It's been almost a week, which I would think would be enough to at least get a quote from someone at one of the PL schools or the PL offices, no?

From the Coulson article:

"Masella and Fordham athletic director Frank McLaughlin were unavailable this week to discuss the Rams' aspirations further..."

The Patriot League has always been shrouded in secrecy and mystery. They make Dick Cheney look like full and free access. My guess is that the league fathers and mothers know only slightly more about this than we do and, like us, have no idea at this point where this is headed. We will eventually hear something from Fordham simply because Masella has forced their hand, but the league office and the silent six are another matter.

As for the working press, good luck. The best - and probably only - hope is Keith Groller of the Allentown Mourning Crawl. With access to two of the major players (Lafayette and Lehigh), as well as being someone who has established his credentials, he might do something with it. I doubt if there is a journalist in any of the other markets who cares enough to leave the donut shop for this story.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

From the Coulson article:

"Masella and Fordham athletic director Frank McLaughlin were unavailable this week to discuss the Rams' aspirations further..."

The Patriot League has always been shrouded in secrecy and mystery. They make Dick Cheney look like full and free access. My guess is that the league fathers and mothers know only slightly more about this than we do and, like us, have no idea at this point where this is headed. We will eventually hear something from Fordham simply because Masella has forced their hand, but the league office and the silent six are another matter.

As for the working press, good luck. The best - and probably only - hope is Keith Groller of the Allentown Mourning Crawl. With access to two of the major players (Lafayette and Lehigh), as well as being someone who has established his credentials, he might do something with it. I doubt if there is a journalist in any of the other markets who cares enough to leave the donut shop for this story.

xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix

[carney2]

xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix

Oops. I forgot about you.

Actually, our old friend LFN is probably our best hope. Here's hoping that he still has Joe Sterrett's phone number.

[bison137]

That was how I understood it as well.

They're already giving 57(?) equivalencies, therefore giving 57 scholarships would not cost them any additional money.


As it was aptly explained, this simply allows them to go after the kids they want and offer them the money they want to offer them without any other strings.


Depending on the exact circumstances, there can also be Title IX issues, since with need-based aid there is greater latitude as far as having expenditures being about the same. A school can have an identical need-based aid policy for males and females, and yet give out different amounts of money depending on the financial circumstances of the recruited athletes. With scholarships, the number given out has to be similar in most cases.

[carney2]

Back to an issue that has been brushed aside by many in all of this - cost. It seems to be commonly accepted on this board that if you have the equivalencies already in place, cost cannot be an issue. Perhaps so. Still, I am proposing that the following quote or something very similar (from my crystal ball) will be in the final release on this subject from the league office:

"...we do not feel that approving football scholarships sends the right message in this time of economic hardship when our member institutions are reducing expenditures in almost every area."

Wanna bet?!!

[danefan]

Back to an issue that has been brushed aside by many in all of this - cost. It seems to be commonly accepted on this board that if you have the equivalencies already in place, cost cannot be an issue. Perhaps so. Still, I am proposing that the following quote or something very similar (from my crystal ball) will be in the final release on this subject from the league office:

"...we do not feel that approving football scholarships sends the right message in this time of economic hardship when our member institutions are reducing expenditures in almost every area."

Wanna bet?!!

If its shot down, that is undoubtedly the "company line." xnodx

[Neighbor2]

Therein lies the problem. The Patriot League decision makers have a long history of believing "There's the Patriot League, and then there's everyone else."

Don't hold your breath waiting for everyone else to see it your way.

[Fordham]

Back to an issue that has been brushed aside by many in all of this - cost. It seems to be commonly accepted on this board that if you have the equivalencies already in place, cost cannot be an issue. Perhaps so. Still, I am proposing that the following quote or something very similar (from my crystal ball) will be in the final release on this subject from the league office:

"...we do not feel that approving football scholarships sends the right message in this time of economic hardship when our member institutions are reducing expenditures in almost every area."

Wanna bet?!!

There's no way I'd take that bet. Not that I think it's automatic that it'll be 'no', but I think if they do say 'no' they will likely produce a flimsy rationale like this to defend it.

So, if they say 'no' - what next? Let's assume that we don't tuck our tail and remain in the PL and we actually bolt. Does the PL just go back to business as usual and look for the best possible replacement for us? Or, as happened in hoops, does our leaving serve as the catalyst for a move to scholarships (just not for '10) and then trying to market the league to potential football-only affiliates like 'Nova, et. al.?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Back to an issue that has been brushed aside by many in all of this - cost. It seems to be commonly accepted on this board that if you have the equivalencies already in place, cost cannot be an issue. Perhaps so. Still, I am proposing that the following quote or something very similar (from my crystal ball) will be in the final release on this subject from the league office:

"...we do not feel that approving football scholarships sends the right message in this time of economic hardship when our member institutions are reducing expenditures in almost every area."

Wanna bet?!!

But here's the problem. That's also sending the message to other schools that "we are not willing to expand our league with a school with football who wants to play with conventional football scholarships."

Is that a risk the Patriot League presidents will take? As has been mentioned ad nauseum, there isn't exactly a waiting list for schools which want to join the Patriot League in its current form.

I do not exaggerate when I say that such a decision could very well be the death blow to the league.

[carney2]

But here's the problem. That's also sending the message to other schools that "we are not willing to expand our league with a school with football who wants to play with conventional football scholarships."

Is that a risk the Patriot League presidents will take? As has been mentioned ad nauseum, there isn't exactly a waiting list for schools which want to join the Patriot League in its current form.

I do not exaggerate when I say that such a decision could very well be the death blow to the league.

Since when do academicians make good decisions?!!

[RichH2]

I dread the response from the academics. Hell, they let me into Lehigh, so how smart could they be?

[ngineer]

The foot dragging powers that be have yet another statistic to prove "hard times' and therefore not the time to be implementing costly measures like football scholarships. Hey, true or not, it's an argument that will be made.

Yes, and they use the statistics like "a drunk uses lamposts--for support rather than illumination"...:D

[ngineer]

From the Coulson article:

"Masella and Fordham athletic director Frank McLaughlin were unavailable this week to discuss the Rams' aspirations further..."

The Patriot League has always been shrouded in secrecy and mystery. They make Dick Cheney look like full and free access. My guess is that the league fathers and mothers know only slightly more about this than we do and, like us, have no idea at this point where this is headed. We will eventually hear something from Fordham simply because Masella has forced their hand, but the league office and the silent six are another matter.

As for the working press, good luck. The best - and probably only - hope is Keith Groller of the Allentown Mourning Crawl. With access to two of the major players (Lafayette and Lehigh), as well as being someone who has established his credentials, he might do something with it. I doubt if there is a journalist in any of the other markets who cares enough to leave the donut shop for this story.

Great observations Carney..I love it. Tried to give you rep, but was told I have to 'spread it'...

[ngineer]

Therein lies the problem. The Patriot League decision makers have a long history of believing "There's the Patriot League, and then there's everyone else."

Don't hold your breath waiting for everyone else to see it your way.

Good observation. Unfortunately, the PL has on more than one occasion come across as arrogant in their sanctimonious quasi-Ivy position. I fully agree in not budging on the academics one iota, but to keep one arm tied behind our back in trying to recruit based on the need formula will always keep us from being able to truly challenge the top football conferences on a consistent basis.

[LBPop]

When I have the chance to visit this board I almost always learn something (occasionally it's actually useful information ;)) and I frequently discover something I don't know. Today it's the latter.

With all this talk about Fordham making an announcement and "forcing the hand of the rest of the league", it raises the question of whether these schools ever really talk to each other. Sure, I know there are annual luncheons, dinners, etc., but did the Fordham AD or President call their counterparts (at Georgetown for example) and say, "Hey, we're tired of this non-scholarship need based crap. We're gonna announce that we're going scholarship...will you join us?" Georgetown may have been a bad example. If that call had been made, they probably would have established an ad hoc committee to review the proposal at their bi-annual meetings.xrolleyesx

I know that this may seem like a silly question, but when I read that Fordham just unilaterally decided to make this change it conjured up the image of John Belushi running out of the Delta house (after he had rewritten the entire history of WWII) and nobody followed.

[Go...gate]

When I have the chance to visit this board I almost always learn something (occasionally it's actually useful information ;)) and I frequently discover something I don't know. Today it's the latter.

With all this talk about Fordham making an announcement and "forcing the hand of the rest of the league", it raises the question of whether these schools ever really talk to each other. Sure, I know there are annual luncheons, dinners, etc., but did the Fordham AD or President call their counterparts (at Georgetown for example) and say, "Hey, we're tired of this non-scholarship need based crap. We're gonna announce that we're going scholarship...will you join us?" Georgetown may have been a bad example. If that call had been made, they probably would have established an ad hoc committee to review the proposal at their bi-annual meetings.xrolleyesx

I know that this may seem like a silly question, but when I read that Fordham just unilaterally decided to make this change it conjured up the image of John Belushi running out of the Delta house (after he had rewritten the entire history of WWII) and nobody followed.

One of the epic moments in film history. xthumbsupx

[Fordham]

xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix
Any luck getting in touch with league offices, Fordham or any other PL school officials, etc. for confirmation of all of this, LFN?

[ngineer]

I sent an email to Keith Groller at The Morning Call to see whether he had heard of Fordham's 'Decision' and whether he could ferret out any info on what the 'powers that be' in the Inner Sanctum of Center Valley are thinking. He responded that he had not heard of the Fordham "Decision", but will look into the issue with the PL offices. Also noted that the various coaches have been pushing for this to happen, and gives the Rams kudos for being so bold.;) We'll have to see what he can find out other than the usual 'non-answers' administrators are wont to give.

[Fordham]

Thanks ng.

I had a back and forth with someone from our development office yesterday and the first part of the message was the excitement over the schedule and move to scholarships. I was pleased to see it confirmed by another Fordham contact since I had not spoken to anyone since our Meet the Recruits night.

C'mon, LFN, go get 'em.

[ramMan]

Not an insignificant factor in all of this is the fact that applications at Lehigh and Lafayette - and I would assume all of the pricey Patriot League schools - are down somewhere in the 14-15% range.


According to Peter Farrell, Fordham's Director of Admissions, applications at Fordham are up 5%.
Fordham now has the second highest number of applicants of all the Catholic schools in the country. Boston College has the highest number of apps.

[DFW HOYA]

Fordham now has the second highest number of applicants of all the Catholic schools in the country. Boston College has the highest number of apps.

While Fordham has 23,000 applications and those numbers grow 10-15% a year, Georgetown's numbers hover around 16,000 and could be passed by Villanova in a few years.. Is that trouble for Georgetown? Not at all.

Fordham and Villanova use the Common application, where applying is done online and with minimal effort. Fordham accepts 42% of its applicants to fill the class. Georgetown does not use the Common application (applicants must mail in material for admission) and still only accepts 21% to fill the class because the number of accepted students who finally choose to go there (the "yield") is significantly higher than Fordham or Villanova.

Fordham needs to think about building yield and not just building applications.

[Franks Tanks]

According to Peter Farrell, Fordham's Director of Admissions, applications at Fordham are up 5%.
Fordham now has the second highest number of applicants of all the Catholic schools in the country. Boston College has the highest number of apps.

More than Notre Dame?

[MplsBison]

While Fordham has 23,000 applications and those numbers grow 10-15% a year, Georgetown's numbers hover around 16,000 and could be passed by Villanova in a few years.. Is that trouble for Georgetown? Not at all.

Fordham and Villanova use the Common application, where applying is done online and with minimal effort. Fordham accepts 42% of its applicants to fill the class. Georgetown does not use the Common application (applicants must mail in material for admission) and still only accepts 21% to fill the class because the number of accepted students who finally choose to go there (the "yield") is significantly higher than Fordham or Villanova.

Fordham needs to think about building yield and not just building applications.

Honestly...people like you, who brag about their school's selectivity, are the reason why I will never let my kids go to private schools.

[DFW HOYA]

Honestly...people like you, who brag about their school's selectivity, are the reason why I will never let my kids go to private schools.

Not a brag, just a comparison. Northing wrong with having more applicants than available spaces...and no, Georgetown can't accept 15,000 freshmen a year!

[Fordham]

While Fordham has 23,000 applications and those numbers grow 10-15% a year, Georgetown's numbers hover around 16,000 and could be passed by Villanova in a few years.. Is that trouble for Georgetown? Not at all.

Fordham and Villanova use the Common application, where applying is done online and with minimal effort. Fordham accepts 42% of its applicants to fill the class. Georgetown does not use the Common application (applicants must mail in material for admission) and still only accepts 21% to fill the class because the number of accepted students who finally choose to go there (the "yield") is significantly higher than Fordham or Villanova.

Fordham needs to think about building yield and not just building applications.I'm pretty sure he was simply responding to carney's post about decreasing applications (not yield) as opposed to revealing the Fordham Admissions Office's priority list.

[PAT]

It will be interesting to see if the AI automatically self adjusts as admissions numbers start to decrease and the ability to be as selective also decreases.

[MplsBison]

Not a brag, just a comparison. Northing wrong with having more applicants than available spaces...and no, Georgetown can't accept 15,000 freshmen a year!

I understand that.


But the elitism..and the snobbery....ugh. I just won't allow my kids to be apart of that, even if it means they have to be 1 out of 8000 new freshman in the fall.

[LUHawker]

I understand that.


But the elitism..and the snobbery....ugh. I just won't allow my kids to be apart of that, even if it means they have to be 1 out of 8000 new freshman in the fall.

Sounds like you've got a chip on your shoulder. Why don't you let your kids select the schools they would like to attend?

[JoltinJoe]

While Fordham has 23,000 applications and those numbers grow 10-15% a year, Georgetown's numbers hover around 16,000 and could be passed by Villanova in a few years.. Is that trouble for Georgetown? Not at all.

Fordham and Villanova use the Common application, where applying is done online and with minimal effort. Fordham accepts 42% of its applicants to fill the class. Georgetown does not use the Common application (applicants must mail in material for admission) and still only accepts 21% to fill the class because the number of accepted students who finally choose to go there (the "yield") is significantly higher than Fordham or Villanova.

Fordham needs to think about building yield and not just building applications.

I have a great idea to increase the Fordham yield: grade inflation. Fordham should award either an "A" or "A-" 46% of the time. I'm sure our yield will be 21% in no time.