Has Fordham Shot Itself In The Foot?

[DFW HOYA]

Putting aside the scholarship issue for a moment, does the story of Fordham giving the PL an ultimatum a big misstep?

It's one thing to lose a vote on scholarships and then to announce it's leaving: you honor the vote and move on, but to call out six college presidents to follow their lead or else is a big gamble, especially in this mini-depression going on.

Let's face facts--this is not Lehigh or one of the league's founders. This isn't even Holy Cross, who prodded the league into basketball scholarships but had equity across all PL sports, It's an associate member trying to call the shots! There may indeed be interest in scholarships but CEO's (college presidents) don't like being told what to do, much less to question their Ivy League scheduling ties, all to keep Fordham happy?

And if Fordham really told them they're out in 2010, the PL schools could (and just might) drop them from the schedule at once, leaving six games to fill in short order. Time to call up Savannah State and Presbyterian.

I'm not saying the decision is right or wrong, but the methods, if true, are very risky.

[danefan]

Putting aside the scholarship issue for a moment, does the story of Fordham giving the PL an ultimatum a big misstep?

It's one thing to lose a vote on scholarships and then to announce it's leaving: you honor the vote and move on, but to call out six college presidents to follow their lead or else is a big gamble, especially in this mini-depression going on.

Let's face facts--this is not Lehigh or one of the league's founders. This isn't even Holy Cross, who prodded the league into basketball scholarships but had equity across all PL sports, It's an associate member trying to call the shots! There may indeed be interest in scholarships but CEO's (college presidents) don't like being told what to do, much less to question their Ivy League scheduling ties, all to keep Fordham happy?

And if Fordham really told them they're out in 2010, the PL schools could (and just might) drop them from the schedule at once, leaving six games to fill in short order. Time to call up Savannah State and Presbyterian.

I'm not saying the decision is right or wrong, but the methods, if true, are very risky.

I don't think they shot themselves in the foot. I think they just feel they'll be no progress unless they push the envelope. They are better off doing it as an affiliate - it doesn't jeopardize their relationship in their other sports.

Worst case scenario they end up in 2011 in the Big South. They'd be in the almost the exact same position they are today - an affiliate football member in an AQ conferecne. They'd be trading the loose association with supposedly like minded academic institutions for full scholarship football.

[Seawolf97]

As the endless PL discussions on scholarship football roll on Fordham has taken a stand. Even if they go indy for a season or two they have FBS games on their schedule plus they can always play us, Hofstra and other teams in the area.
Lets see the PL response.

[Tim James]

I think they will be fine where ever they end up. A 6 team Patriot League will be in far worse trouble and will have to fanatically scramble for new members.

[JoltinJoe]

Shot ourselves in the foot?

We've committed to scholarships and lined up dates with UConn and two with Army.

The rest of the PL should take note. What can the PL teams accomplish with scholarships? It can become as competitive as any conference in the FCS. We're the Ivy League during the week; the CAA on Saturday.

[aceinthehole]

I agree, Fordham did what's best for them and if the PL wants to follow they will.

Fordham could certainly follow the SBU route (Indy to Big South), but everyone knows that is just temporary. In the end, if they can prod the CAA-affiliates to split off then this was a great move. Right now, its a chess match and someone has to make the first move.

From a PL perspective, they lost a ton of ground to the NEC and Big South in just a few seasons. Its time to stop the bleeding and go scholly, unless you are happpy just playing Ivy teams and losing in the first round.

[Fordham]

Shot ourselves in the foot?

We've committed to scholarships and lined up dates with UConn and two with Army.

The rest of the PL should take note. What can the PL teams accomplish with scholarships? It can become as competitive as any conference in the FCS. We're the Ivy League during the week; the CAA on Saturday.

Amen.

The thought of this possibly shooting us in the foot is absurd. More than anything, think of the alternative. Watch the slow demise of the program in a league where we are at a competitive disadvantage with other members and very little hope of schollies on the horizon ... or put forth the ultimatum?

When it comes to the continuation of the program (and hopefully the thriving of it as well) - the latter carries much less risk than the former.

[LeopardFan04]

The rest of the PL should take note. What can the PL teams accomplish with scholarships? It can become as competitive as any conference in the FCS. We're the Ivy League during the week; the CAA on Saturday.




From a PL perspective, they lost a ton of ground to the NEC and Big South in just a few seasons. Its time to stop the bleeding and go scholly, unless you are happpy just playing Ivy teams and losing in the first round.



Both are great points...

[DFW HOYA]

Amen.

The thought of this possibly shooting us in the foot is absurd. More than anything, think of the alternative. Watch the slow demise of the program in a league where we are at a competitive disadvantage with other members and very little hope of schollies on the horizon ... or put forth the ultimatum?


Do you mind that an associate member is making the ultimatum?

[Fordham]

Do you mind that an associate member is making the ultimatum?
I love the fact that it's an associate making the ultimatum since I fell pretty certain that it wouldn't be you guys. xsmiley_wix

Seriously, it is what it is. Not sure why you think it would bother me that it's an associate other than the fact that it points to a dearth of leadership on the issue from core members. Does that increase our risk that they'll tell us to take a hike? Possibly ... but when you view going independent WITH scholarships as a better alternative than remaining in conference WITHOUT them, you tend to not care as much about that risk.

FWIW, the other thing that Masella said was that we were told to swallow hard on the AI and promised that scholarships would follow soon afterwards. Once we went through this recruiting season, we were somehow told that scholarships were back to the discussion stage again as opposed to being a done deal. That's what precipitated this.

[blukeys]

I love the fact that it's an associate making the ultimatum since I fell pretty certain that it wouldn't be you guys. xsmiley_wix

Seriously, it is what it is. Not sure why you think it would bother me that it's an associate other than the fact that it points to a dearth of leadership on the issue from core members. Does that increase our risk that they'll tell us to take a hike? Possibly ... but when you view going independent WITH scholarships as a better alternative than remaining in conference WITHOUT them, you tend to not care as much about that risk.

FWIW, the other thing that Masella said was that we were told to swallow hard on the AI and promised that scholarships would follow soon afterwards. Once we went through this recruiting season, we were somehow told that scholarships were back to the discussion stage again as opposed to being a done deal. That's what precipitated this.

I Don't blame Fordham at all. In my view it is the PL muckity mucks who have screwed this up.

The CAA has affiliate football members in Umass, Nova, and URI. Seems to me all of these teams play Fordham in B'ball not to mention Hofstra nearby. Fordham has a lot more options than the PL for football. This is a better than average calculated risk for Fordham. It is time the PL jumped into the 21st century. The PL has a lot more to lose in this than Fordham.

[Wildcat80]

IMO Fordham did the right thing and will be better off either in the PL or not. I doubt Lafayette spent as much on their new facilities not to follow. Colgate too. With as many new teams in the CAa & SoCon something has to give shortly. Travel costs ARE an issue unless you play an FBS team for a paycheck. The North has plenty of FCS playoff caliber teams & players. Let's keep them here.

[Bull Fan]

This is clearly a calculated move, and I think a good for FU. Historically speaking, Fordham was a football power back in the leather helmet era. By going full scholly, this gets them (at least) in position to raise their profile and strength in I-AA.

My .02, which could be viewed as conspiracy ...... Hypothetically, there could be back room discussions with the CAA north teams who may want to break from the conference that will now stretch to Georgia. Does Maine, UNH, URI, UMass really want to have an affiliation with schools so far away? Could they afford to? Not like they'd be taking that trip annually, but remember the essence of the original Yankee conference.... That said, FU may very well know the PL will never see the landscape the way they do, and would say buh-bye to a football affiliate.

My question is, if FU drops out, what does that do to the auto-bid for the PL?

I see it that FU has many more options than the PL. Reading up on the discussions of adding a school to the PL in a prior thread, the problem would be even greater. They'd be looking not for one team, but two! Are their two PL-worthy schools willing and free to shift into the league?

[Tribe4SF]

If you look at Fordham's attendance last year, it's obvious that their Patriot League rivals are not creating much fan interest. Their three home games against Colgate, Lafayette and Georgetown all drew fewer than 4,000 fans, averaging just 3,200. Even with a one day delay, the URI game managed to top that number, and the Yale game drew 6,800.

From almost any perspective, the PL is in need of a shakeup. I don't see how anyone can fault Fordham for looking out for their own future. If the rest of the PL doesn't make a move, Fordham will have options down the road.

[Ken_Z]

i have never been accused of being a Fordham defender or apologist, but i have no problem with them forcing the issue. PL affiliate agreements have historically been three year agreements, likely the end of a cycle is near and if so, it makes sense for Fordham to push the issue now. moreover, if scholarships were stated or implied as a part of the AI agreement, they are even moreso in the right to exert their position.

i have stated before that i believed schollys would happen quite possibbly by this summer. without the economic downturn, i think it would have happened smoothly. now, however, it looks like it will have to be debated and battled down to the wire. if i have read the situation correctly, the PL would be foolish to not move forward with scholarships even if Georgetown were to leave. no schollys ensures no new league candidates (except ones previously passed over) are available to the league.

the big question this raises in my mind is, is it Holy Cross rather than Georgtown threatening to leave? this is a much bigger problem and hurdle for the league to deal with.

[JoltinJoe]

If you look at Fordham's attendance last year, it's obvious that their Patriot League rivals are not creating much fan interest. Their three home games against Colgate, Lafayette and Georgetown all drew fewer than 4,000 fans, averaging just 3,200. Even with a one day delay, the URI game managed to top that number, and the Yale game drew 6,800.

From almost any perspective, the PL is in need of a shakeup. I don't see how anyone can fault Fordham for looking out for their own future. If the rest of the PL doesn't make a move, Fordham will have options down the road.

The attendance figures tell half the story. URI and Yale were nice days; but the balance of the homes games fell on Saturdays with some miserable weather. Not just rain. Brutal conditions. Bad luck weatherwise for the Rams last year.

[Tribe4SF]

The attendance figures tell half the story. URI and Yale were nice days; but the balance of the homes games fell on Saturdays with some miserable weather. Not just rain. Brutal conditions. Bad luck weatherwise for the Rams last year.

The Lafayette game was listed as light rain with temperature in the 60s, but the Colgate game was just overcast, and also in the 60s. Picture gallery from that game shows no rain. Attendance was 3,100.

[JoltinJoe]

The Lafayette game was listed as light rain with temperature in the 60s, but the Colgate game was just overcast, and also in the 60s. Picture gallery from that game shows no rain. Attendance was 3,100.

Light rain? Overcast? Not where I was. Maybe the weather was better in the Bronx, but I live within a hour of the campus.

[carney2]

The Lafayette game was listed as light rain with temperature in the 60s, but the Colgate game was just overcast, and also in the 60s. Picture gallery from that game shows no rain. Attendance was 3,100.

Rain early in the Lafayette @ Fordham game and then nothing. I, for one, was scared away by the forecast. Couldn't see drivng into the Bronx when there was a fair chance that I would be sitting in the rain for 3 hours.

[Tribe4SF]

Light rain? Overcast? Not where I was. Maybe the weather was better in the Bronx, but I live within a hour of the campus.

Check out the photo gallery of the Colgate game on the Fordham site. Conditions were fine. Nice shot of the Pep Band in T-shirts.

If you live within an hour, why weren't you at the games?!?!

[carney2]

I'm repeating this from the other Fordham thread in the hopes that someone with an answer (not an opinion) can address it:

No one has mentioned if there are Title IX implications in all of this scholarship talk. In the past it has been referred to by many as the 2,000 pound gorilla in all of this. It's time that someone clarified things for those of us who know only that a rule exists, but have no idea what it is.

1. Will Fordham, or anyone else going scholarship, now have to fund an equal number of play for pay rides for women?

or

2. Does the fact that Fordham already has 57 or 58 or whatever equivalencies take care of this, and no Title IX adjustments will be necessary?

If the answer is number 1 above, Title IX will be key in the decision process. I'm confused. How about you?

[Tribe4SF]

I'm repeating this from the other Fordham thread in the hopes that someone with an answer (not an opinion) can address it:

No one has mentioned if there are Title IX implications in all of this scholarship talk. In the past it has been referred to by many as the 2,000 pound gorilla in all of this. It's time that someone clarified things for those of us who know only that a rule exists, but have no idea what it is.

1. Will Fordham, or anyone else going scholarship, now have to fund an equal number of play for pay rides for women?

or

2. Does the fact that Fordham already has 57 or 58 or whatever equivalencies take care of this, and no Title IX adjustments will be necessary?

If the answer is number 1 above, Title IX will be key in the decision process. I'm confused. How about you?

I don't know how the equivalencies figure in Title IX, but there is consideration for football, since there is no equivalent women's sport in terms of the number of scholarships. I'm sure Fordham has considered the Title IX implications.

[Franks Tanks]

I don't know how the equivalencies figure in Title IX, but there is consideration for football, since there is no equivalent women's sport in terms of the number of scholarships. I'm sure Fordham has considered the Title IX implications.

Ya they said scholl'ys wouldnt cost anymore, so it appears they will not have to add womens scholly's to be compliant.

[carney2]

I'm sure Fordham has considered the Title IX implications.

I'm sure they have too. That's not the point. Now everyone else has to "consider Title IX implications," and it is a big - HUGE - potential stumbling block. Does anyone KNOW the freakin' rule?

[MplsBison]

Sour grapes by the PL. They want to maintain the status quo and keep Fordham.


Too bad.

[danefan]

I'm sure they have too. That's not the point. Now everyone else has to "consider Title IX implications," and it is a big - HUGE - potential stumbling block. Does anyone KNOW the freakin' rule?

In every other aspect of college athletics, any funding given to an athlete that is not generally available to the student body is considered an "athletic" scholarship. I don't believe there is any difference between an equivalency and a scholarship.

Title IX comes down to equal access to educational opportunities, one of which is intercollegiate athletics. Compliance is generally shown by equal spending. Whether its described in terms of a scholarship or in terms of an equivalency shouldn't matter.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

This is clearly a calculated move, and I think a good for FU. Historically speaking, Fordham was a football power back in the leather helmet era. By going full scholly, this gets them (at least) in position to raise their profile and strength in I-AA.

My .02, which could be viewed as conspiracy ...... Hypothetically, there could be back room discussions with the CAA north teams who may want to break from the conference that will now stretch to Georgia. Does Maine, UNH, URI, UMass really want to have an affiliation with schools so far away? Could they afford to? Not like they'd be taking that trip annually, but remember the essence of the original Yankee conference.... That said, FU may very well know the PL will never see the landscape the way they do, and would say buh-bye to a football affiliate.

My question is, if FU drops out, what does that do to the auto-bid for the PL?

I see it that FU has many more options than the PL. Reading up on the discussions of adding a school to the PL in a prior thread, the problem would be even greater. They'd be looking not for one team, but two! Are their two PL-worthy schools willing and free to shift into the league?

I can't speak for the other schools you mentioned, but UNH has no problem being affiliated with the CAA South schools. I've always got the impression that UNH likes being affiliated with them. Football wise, I truly believe UNH wants and needs the association with the CAA South to maintain a high level team. It isn't like we can rely on in-state kids like so many other publics in FCS. And those schools provide the least expensive road trips by plane. UNH has no interaction athletically with GA State to date that I'm aware of.

As for the original Yankee Conference, I'm old enough that while in school UNH was part of the all sports Yankee Conference. UConn, UMass and URI wanted their basketball programs to play at a higher level. They dusted Maine, Vermont and UNH in the late 70's-early 80's. Again, speaking only for UNH, there are very few games scheduled in sports between my Wildcats and the three Southern New England public flagships despite that commonality and close geographic proximity. There just aren't the ties between these schools that some of you folks think or assume exists. Frankly, despite the distance I'd rather see my alma mater build future ties with Delaware and Towson than UMass and URI who don't really want to be affiliated with UNH for all sports (nor IMHO Maine either).

So far I haven't seen any sign that the financial climate is causing UMass or URI to reconsider their conference affiliation nor scheduling tendencies. And if these times can't draw them back into some type of original Yankee Conference arrangement, then will it ever occur? I still don't see any leadership to make a New Yankee Football League occur. If UMass really wanted this, don't you think they'd be leading the way?

[mainejeff]

So far I haven't seen any sign that the financial climate is causing UMass or URI to reconsider their conference affiliation nor scheduling tendencies. And if these times can't draw them back into some type of original Yankee Conference arrangement, then will it ever occur? I still don't see any leadership to make a New Yankee Football League occur. If UMass really wanted this, don't you think they'd be leading the way?

It is a bit early in this recession/depression to assume that they will not change their line of thinking on this.

[RichH2]

Schollies and equivalencies are the same to NCAA.It would only be the increase which would have TitleIX implications

[DFW HOYA]

Schollies and equivalencies are the same to NCAA.It would only be the increase which would have TitleIX implications

What is different, as has been pointed out, is whether a scholarship recruit goes through standard admissions or through a different route. If equivalencies go through one door but scholarship kids don't, then there is cause for concern.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What is different, as has been pointed out, is whether a scholarship recruit goes through standard admissions or through a different route. If equivalencies go through one door but scholarship kids don't, then there is cause for concern.

In the Patriot League that would not happen.

To simplify it:

* Currently, potential football players would need to visit three offices: the athletics department, the admissions department, and the financial aid office.

* The change - as I understand it - would mean that in the potential football players would need to visit only two offices: the athletics department and the admissions department.

The financial aid portion would be gone because the athlete could get a scholarship based on academic or athletic merit. But they'll still need to meet academic requirements and pass through the admissions office.

And (importantly) in that sense, I don't think that it would be any different than the way it's done now for the PL.

***

These types of questions are difficult to answer. Is the the "path of admissions" of an athlete different than that of, say, a cello player? Of course it is - and it's different for a "legacy", for a scientist that can deliver more research grant money for the college/university, etc. The key is that the admissions department is independent and has a say.

[Fordham]

What is different, as has been pointed out, is whether a scholarship recruit goes through standard admissions or through a different route. If equivalencies go through one door but scholarship kids don't, then there is cause for concern.
Why would you ever think that they'd go through a different route?

[danefan]

Why would you ever think that they'd go through a different route?

Perhaps at Georgetown the recruits of the other major scholarship sport - basketball - go through a different admission route. xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

Perhaps at Georgetown the recruits of the other major scholarship sport - basketball - go through a different admission route. xrolleyesx

Georgetown can't help that, the Big East makes them!


xrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesxxrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[HoyaMetanoia]

Why would you ever think that they'd go through a different route?

Because scholarship athletes in football at almost all FBS schools go through a different route.

[Wildcat80]

On behalf of the tremendous opportunities it will present to northeast athletes I applaud Fordham! As a representative of Northeast football I applaud them! They might take a few kids away from other urban schools--hopefully hofstra & northeastern--and I really think they will even get kids that would consider the Ivies--middle class income kids. I am excited for their fans to be playing UConn & Army. C'mon UConn schedule UNH too!! Good Luck Fordham!!

[Fordham]

Because scholarship athletes in football at almost all FBS schools go through a different route.


xconfusedxxeyebrowx

[RichH2]

I do not understand a "different route '

[ngineer]

Perhaps at Georgetown the recruits of the other major scholarship sport - basketball - go through a different admission route. xrolleyesx


The other "AI" band...;):D

[RichH2]

Ah, now I understand.

[RichH2]

ngineer before I forget again, What is it that I thought I understood?

[Fordham]

other AI = Allen Iverson

[RichH2]

Thanks Fordham. Never have been much of a BBall fan

[ngineer]

We will have a remedial sarcasm class starting on Saturday mornings at 8 a.m...;)

[HoyaMetanoia]

xconfusedxxeyebrowx
I'm just going off what I know. I'm not sure about other FCS schools, but for money making sports at big time schools, it's often the NCAA minimums, not university averages, that set the standard for athlete acceptances.

[RichH2]

I require 2 gin & tonics for sarcasm and at 8 am at least 2 cups of coffee for even a semblance of brain activity .

[Tribe4SF]

What is different, as has been pointed out, is whether a scholarship recruit goes through standard admissions or through a different route. If equivalencies go through one door but scholarship kids don't, then there is cause for concern.

I guess I don't understand what the cause for concern would be. What doors a kid goes through are determined by the school and/or the conference. The issue is whether they can be admitted to the school, and meet all minimum requirements to play football. Scholarships vs. equivalencies makes no difference. The PL can have its "AI" whether they give scholarships, or not, and a school like Fordham is not likely to compromise their standards much to admit a football player. With the APR in place, all schools have to be focused on admitting athletes who can succeed academically, whatever their standards may be.

[RichH2]

Tribe your pointsare well taken. Fordham's objection with the new AI is that it sets a conference wide floor for admission of recruits, which is higher than the prior system of each school computing its own AI against only its students. Since FU's avgs are slightly less than that of the rest of the PL they could recruit athletes that none of the others could admit into school. None of the PL schools are really concerned with the APR. at ;east for football

[DFW HOYA]

Tribe your pointsare well taken. Fordham's objection with the new AI is that it sets a conference wide floor for admission of recruits, which is higher than the prior system of each school computing its own AI against only its students. Since FU's avgs are slightly less than that of the rest of the PL they could recruit athletes that none of the others could admit into school. None of the PL schools are really concerned with the APR. at ;east for football

I'm not sure it's higher than the prior system for any school but Fordham--it's probably lower for Georgetown and Colgate and close to the same for the other four.

Would Fordham accept league-wide scholarships AND the academic index?

[RichH2]

Apparently that was the deal. I meant the AI floor was higher for Fordham. It was lower for Lehighand others.

[Fordham]

I'm just going off what I know. I'm not sure about other FCS schools, but for money making sports at big time schools, it's often the NCAA minimums, not university averages, that set the standard for athlete acceptances.

and what does that have to do with Fordham? xconfusedx

so far it's been interesting to see the reactions. Most PL fans seem to appreciate that something's being done finally even if there's anxiety over what will happen next.

The Georgetown crew, though ... not so much. Definitely understandable but interesting.

And DFW, as Rich pointed out and has been mentioned elsewhere - yes, we'd stay with scholarships and the AI. Otherwise, it's not like we'd be throwing down the gauntlet ... we just would have been announcing that we were leaving.

[HoyaMetanoia]

and what does that have to do with Fordham? xconfusedx

so far it's been interesting to see the reactions. Most PL fans seem to appreciate that something's being done finally even if there's anxiety over what will happen next.

The Georgetown crew, though ... not so much. Definitely understandable but interesting.

And DFW, as Rich pointed out and has been mentioned elsewhere - yes, we'd stay with scholarships and the AI. Otherwise, it's not like we'd be throwing down the gauntlet ... we just would have been announcing that we were leaving.

Someone asked what other route would recruits possibly take, so I answered.

[Fordham]

Someone asked what other route would recruits possibly take, so I answered.

no, you actually quoted this post from me and responded with your FBS quote. I clearly wasn't asking what other route recruits might possibly take.


Why would you ever think that they'd go through a different route?


Because scholarship athletes in football at almost all FBS schools go through a different route.

[blukeys]

The attempt by the PL to establish a conference wide AI was incredibly dumb on its face. Only a group of Ivory Tower administrators could have come up with such a stupid idea.

Unless a school has an open admissions process (and there are some) ALL schools have some type of AI for students with extraordinary talents, who do not quite meet the minimum admission standards. Depending on the priorities of the school this could be musical, artistic, or athletic etc.

All of these factors are weighed in the admission process. Obviously, a really talented trumpet player does not get the attention that a top rated football recruit gets and there is the problem.

It does not do any College any good to recruit ANY student who will eventually fail due to the lack of academic ability to perform.

While a school may be willing to admit a talented athlete whose high school academic performance is only 90% of the admission standards. It does not do the school or the athletic team any good to recruit an athlete who is only 30% of the basic admission standard. In the latter case the student is likely to flunk out within a year. All school with high academic standards and successful athletics recognize this and deal with it accordingly.

One of the problems endemic to trying to impose a conference wide AI is that different schools attempt to fill different niches based on their academic mission.

I know that the PL schools are all private but bear with me on this.

Larger State schools such as Delaware, Texas, Michigan etc. actually have multiple AI's for their schools. All three of these schools have excellent academic reputations in certain areas but are considered football schools.

Unlike a school like Lafayette, Delaware does not have one admission standard. One is not admitted to the University of Delaware. A successful applicant instead is admitted to one of a number of "colleges" at the University of Delaware. All of these Colleges have different admission standards. It is much more difficult to be admitted to the UD College of Engineering by grades and SAT scores then it is to be admitted to the College of Education. I think for most of us , after some thought, this will make sense that The standards to become a chemical engineer are higher than a 2nd grade teacher.

At any rate this does impact the UD Academic Index. An athlete whose grades and SAT scores would get him acceptance into the College of Education may not be admitted to one of the other more competitive Colleges. (The two most demanding are Engineering and Nursing)

Once again it makes no sense to recruit an athlete who will not be able to graduate within a 5 year timeline.

All athletic programs need for students to be academically eligible over the long haul.

If the CAA had decided to try and mandate a conference wide Academic Index with 14 different schools, all of who had different academic strengths and weaknesses then the result would have been mass chaos.

I know the PL schools tend to be more uniform than the CAA but in the end every school has their own strengths that they then use to market their brand.

I have no clue why the Pl administrators chose to impose a conference wide AI but I do believe it was an incredibly inept decision.

If for instance UD was in the PL, all of their engineering students would be eligible while many of thier education major may have a problem. This is despite the fact that most of the education majors would have been successful in their college career at UD.

This then comes down to Fordham. Fordham is a respected private University that has a long record of successfully educating and turning out solid citizens.

Why the dumb muckety mucks at the Pl decided that Fordham's brand of academics did not meet the PL standard is beyond me. In my view, If Fordham has been successful in its academic mission then leave them alone.

If an athlete can meet the Fordham requirements and subsequently succeed at that school then consider this a Patriot League success story.

Why the PL decided to impose their judgements on what are the private individual decisions of a member institution demonstrates just out of touch the PL administrators are.

Does anyone for one moment think that the student atletes at Fordham are not receiving a first rate education?????

Let Fordham decide who to recruit and keep. They did a decent job of educating Vince Lombardi. That works for me.

[Seawolf97]

The attempt by the PL to establish a conference wide AI was incredibly dumb on its face. Only a group of Ivory Tower administrators could have come up with such a stupid idea.

Unless a school has an open admissions process (and there are some) ALL schools have some type of AI for students with extraordinary talents, who do not quite meet the minimum admission standards. Depending on the priorities of the school this could be musical, artistic, or athletic etc.

All of these factors are weighed in the admission process. Obviously, a really talented trumpet player does not get the attention that a top rated football recruit gets and there is the problem.

It does not do any College any good to recruit ANY student who will eventually fail due to the lack of academic ability to perform.

While a school may be willing to admit a talented athlete whose high school academic performance is only 90% of the admission standards. It does not do the school or the athletic team any good to recruit an athlete who is only 30% of the basic admission standard. In the latter case the student is likely to flunk out within a year. All school with high academic standards and successful athletics recognize this and deal with it accordingly.

One of the problems endemic to trying to impose a conference wide AI is that different schools attempt to fill different niches based on their academic mission.

I know that the PL schools are all private but bear with me on this.

Larger State schools such as Delaware, Texas, Michigan etc. actually have multiple AI's for their schools. All three of these schools have excellent academic reputations in certain areas but are considered football schools.

Unlike a school like Lafayette, Delaware does not have one admission standard. One is not admitted to the University of Delaware. A successful applicant instead is admitted to one of a number of "colleges" at the University of Delaware. All of these Colleges have different admission standards. It is much more difficult to be admitted to the UD College of Engineering by grades and SAT scores then it is to be admitted to the College of Education. I think for most of us , after some thought, this will make sense that The standards to become a chemical engineer are higher than a 2nd grade teacher.

At any rate this does impact the UD Academic Index. An athlete whose grades and SAT scores would get him acceptance into the College of Education may not be admitted to one of the other more competitive Colleges. (The two most demanding are Engineering and Nursing)

Once again it makes no sense to recruit an athlete who will not be able to graduate within a 5 year timeline.

All athletic programs need for students to be academically eligible over the long haul.

If the CAA had decided to try and mandate a conference wide Academic Index with 14 different schools, all of who had different academic strengths and weaknesses then the result would have been mass chaos.

I know the PL schools tend to be more uniform than the CAA but in the end every school has their own strengths that they then use to market their brand.

I have no clue why the Pl administrators chose to impose a conference wide AI but I do believe it was an incredibly inept decision.

If for instance UD was in the PL, all of their engineering students would be eligible while many of thier education major may have a problem. This is despite the fact that most of the education majors would have been successful in their college career at UD.

This then comes down to Fordham. Fordham is a respected private University that has a long record of successfully educating and turning out solid citizens.

Why the dumb muckety mucks at the Pl decided that Fordham's brand of academics did not meet the PL standard is beyond me. In my view, If Fordham has been successful in its academic mission then leave them alone.

If an athlete can meet the Fordham requirements and subsequently succeed at that school then consider this a Patriot League success story.

Why the PL decided to impose their judgements on what are the private individual decisions of a member institution demonstrates just out of touch the PL administrators are.

Does anyone for one moment think that the student atletes at Fordham are not receiving a first rate education?????

Let Fordham decide who to recruit and keep. They did a decent job of educating Vince Lombardi. That works for me.

Excellent post. Try and get into Stonybrooks Nuclear Physics program that accepts maybe 34-37 students a year on a global basis. Yet StonyBrooks 4 year nursing program takes in 300-500 students a year. Each school within the University has established its own admissions requirements and it works pretty well.

[HoyaMetanoia]

no, you actually quoted this post from me and responded with your FBS quote. I clearly wasn't asking what other route recruits might possibly take.

Well that is what makes me think it is possible. It is done at a variety of schools in the FBS, which I know for a fact, and, while I don't know for a fact if it happens at FCS schools, I assumed many follow the same process and standards. Nothing to get up in arms over.

[blukeys]

Excellent post. Try and get into Stonybrooks Nuclear Physics program that accepts maybe 34-37 students a year on a global basis. Yet StonyBrooks 4 year nursing program takes in 300-500 students a year. Each school within the University has established its own admissions requirements and it works pretty well.

Delaware has a very respected sports training and Physical Therapy program that again accepts 35 - 40 students a year. We had a linebacker from Penn transfer into UD to get into the program and had to sit out a year. The player (his name was Laws) was obviously a good student as he was admitted to Penn (although some Ivy League snobs question if Penn is truly Ivy League or not. Ivytalkxrolleyesx)

He transferrred because Penn had no sports training/physical therapy program and this is what he wanted to do. Delaware's program in this area is top notch and well respected. This is what is typical of larger schools and one of the reasons that one should not take certain admission ratings as the gospel truth.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The attempt by the PL to establish a conference wide AI was incredibly dumb on its face. Only a group of Ivory Tower administrators could have come up with such a stupid idea.

The source of the academic index was, as so much else from the Patriot League, the Ivy League.


Unless a school has an open admissions process (and there are some) ALL schools have some type of AI for students with extraordinary talents, who do not quite meet the minimum admission standards. Depending on the priorities of the school this could be musical, artistic, or athletic etc.

But the great majority of those slots with "extraordinary talents" are not cello players. Let's face it, they're athletes. Only a certain number of institutions want a world-class orchestra. Every Division I school wants a guy who can pass 70 yards across his body with accuracy. (And some schools will allow them to transfer in. Imagine that! xsmiley_wix )


It does not do any College any good to recruit ANY student who will eventually fail due to the lack of academic ability to perform.

While a school may be willing to admit a talented athlete whose high school academic performance is only 90% of the admission standards. It does not do the school or the athletic team any good to recruit an athlete who is only 30% of the basic admission standard. In the latter case the student is likely to flunk out within a year. All school with high academic standards and successful athletics recognize this and deal with it accordingly.

I agree. The only difference is that the Patriot League mandates it league-wide, whereas other conferences leave it up to the schools themselves. Most of the time, it works - like it does at Delaware, Richmond, Wofford, etc. But sometimes it doesn't. Ask some of the schools with low APR scores that are in jeopardy of losing the post-season.

While it's fine to say that schools ought to never admit talented athletes that cannot succeed at a school, the sad truth is there are schools that can and do that. And not just at the FBS level.


Unlike a school like Lafayette, Delaware does not have one admission standard. One is not admitted to the University of Delaware. A successful applicant instead is admitted to one of a number of "colleges" at the University of Delaware. All of these Colleges have different admission standards. It is much more difficult to be admitted to the UD College of Engineering by grades and SAT scores then it is to be admitted to the College of Education. I think for most of us , after some thought, this will make sense that The standards to become a chemical engineer are higher than a 2nd grade teacher.

At any rate this does impact the UD Academic Index. An athlete whose grades and SAT scores would get him acceptance into the College of Education may not be admitted to one of the other more competitive Colleges. (The two most demanding are Engineering and Nursing).

It also does so at Cornell - an Ivy League school that has been accused of sticking its athletes in the "college" that's easiest to get into, the school of hotel administration. Now I have no idea whether there's some sort of systemic abuse of this, or just a case of intellectual snobbery by the other seven - but it's been a charge levied against the Big Red.

You're right, though, universities and colleges are different animals. But Lehigh and Colgate have been able to handle the AI as universities with colleges such as Holy Cross and Lafayette.


I have no clue why the Pl administrators chose to impose a conference wide AI but I do believe it was an incredibly inept decision.

First of all you have to remember that this isn't a decision that singles out football - it's a decision that affects all sports. I can say that this wasn't done to punish Fordham.

Second, the AI has been around since the inception of the league - it's not exactly a new concept. It's the modification of the old system, which had its own positives and negatives.


Fordham is a respected private University that has a long record of successfully educating and turning out solid citizens.

Why the dumb muckety mucks at the Pl decided that Fordham's brand of academics did not meet the PL standard is beyond me. In my view, If Fordham has been successful in its academic mission then leave them alone.

Why the PL decided to impose their judgements on what are the private individual decisions of a member institution demonstrates just out of touch the PL administrators are.

Does anyone for one moment think that the student atletes at Fordham are not receiving a first rate education?????

Let Fordham decide who to recruit and keep. They did a decent job of educating Vince Lombardi. That works for me.

The answer to your highlighted question is that kids going to Fordham DO receive a great education, no doubt about that. But Fordham's academic mission in football up to this point included recruiting kids within the boundaries of the old academic index. So by definition they have recruited in the 90% you're talking about.

But Fordham, rightly or wrongly, chose to outsource their member institution "judgement" to the PL Leadership by choosing to be in the league in football, and that has always been true. There has always been an AI in football and all other sports. Framing this as a "PL Leadership imposing their judgement on Fordham football" isn't true.

[TheValleyRaider]

You're right, though, universities and colleges are different animals. But Lehigh and Colgate have been able to handle the AI as universities with colleges such as Holy Cross and Lafayette.

Small point of contention. Colgate may technically have the name "University" but that is a leftover from when we had the Divinity school attached. They split off well over a century ago. Since then, the only other "school" at Colgate is the miniscule Masters program in secondary education. I'm talking 5 graduates in a big year" kind of small. All the undergrads are in the same school, what most universities would call a "Liberal Arts College"

In that sense, we are almost exactly the same as Holy Cross and Lafayette, or at least much close to them than we are to Lehigh xpeacex xtwocentsx

[jimbo65]

Small point of contention. Colgate may technically have the name "University" but that is a leftover from when we had the Divinity school attached. They split off well over a century ago. Since then, the only other "school" at Colgate is the miniscule Masters program in secondary education. I'm talking 5 graduates in a big year" kind of small. All the undergrads are in the same school, what most universities would call a "Liberal Arts College"

In that sense, we are almost exactly the same as Holy Cross and Lafayette, or at least much close to them than we are to Lehigh xpeacex xtwocentsx

I had a laugh a few years ago when a basketball recruit visited Holy Cross and commented what he was quite impressed with the institution, particularly the choice of programs at "the Business School". Wonder if he ever found it.

[kirkblitz]

Big south 2010 yes or no!?!

[Seawolf97]

Big south 2010 yes or no!?!

The Big South might be a safe haven for Fordham until they get feet on th ground with scholarships. Playing as an idependent for a season or two always gets difficult once conference play starts for eveyone else in mid October . Only Notre Dame has no problems getting games. But we will see what the PL decides.

[RichH2]

I hope they decide soon but realistically I think any decision will be in May if then