1) Fordham going scholarship 2) FU v. UCONN ... FU v. Army ...

[Fordham]

I attended last nights "Meet the Recruits" at MJ Armstrong's in NYC last night and 'wow, what a meeting!'

Coach Masella started by saying that he knows everyone always asks a question about the schedule so he was pleased to report the following since he has always argued for IA games:

Fordham v. UCONN in 2011 ... Fordham v. Army in 2014/15 ... and more to come (he said we almost were able to get Rutgers for this season but it fell through).

Then he dropped the bombshell. Fordham has told the PL that we're going full scholarship next season. Preferably within the PL but we'll go independent if they don't move. We currently fund 58 equivalencies - plan is to stick with that and the argument is 'no more money but much more bang for our buck'.

There was an awful lot more detail at the meetings - much of which can be found at the Fordham board (http://fordhamfans.smfforfree.com/index.php?topic=284.msg0;topicseen#new).

So, so glad that we have Masella running our program and kudos to our administration for their leadership on behalf of the school and sport.

[MplsBison]

Good for Fordham.

There are plenty of schools with excellent academics and full athletics scholarships. This is definately the way to go to put the most competitive product on the field.

[danefan]

So the thing that PL Commish eluded to months ago happening in June 2009 is either:

1. PL is going scholarship; or
2. Fordham is leaving after the 09 season.


This could really shakeup the FCS world. It was indicated that 2010 would be an Indy season but with an eye on going to a conference. I would love to see Albany, Fordham and SBU get together and do one of two things:

1. Persuade a few CAA North Division teams to form a new conference.
2. Persuade the Big South to rebrand and become the Big America conference to be more conducive to northeastern teams being involved.

Fordham is sacrificing the affiliations it has with PL schools, but it only has them for football anyway and in football, conferences are more scheduling arrangements than anything else, especially in FCS.

[dgreco]

So the thing that PL Commish eluded to months ago happening in June 2009 is either:

1. PL is going scholarship; or
2. Fordham is leaving after the 09 season.


This could really shakeup the FCS world. It was indicated that 2010 would be an Indy season but with an eye on going to a conference. I would love to see Albany, Fordham and SBU get together and do one of two things:

1. Persuade a few CAA North Division teams to form a new conference.
2. Persuade the Big South to rebrand and become the Big America conference to be more conducive to northeastern teams being involved.

Fordham is sacrificing the affiliations it has with PL schools, but it only has them for football anyway and in football, conferences are more scheduling arrangements than anything else, especially in FCS.

I would like to see Option 1 if it happened. Basically, finally having the AmericaEast football conference.

The Big South just seems to temporary and would it really be worth it?

[bostonspider]

Maybe GSU bypasses the CAA on their way to FBS (or vice-versa) and Fordham becomes the 14th member of the CAA Football Conference, playing in the North Division. Immediate rivalries with UMass and URI from their A10 membership, and great regional rivalries with HU and NU. Add the nice trips up to New England to play UNH plus Maine, and you have a real winner.

[Wildcat80]

Maybe GSU bypasses the CAA on their way to FBS (or vice-versa) and Fordham becomes the 14th member of the CAA Football Conference, playing in the North Division. Immediate rivalries with UMass and URI from their A10 membership, and great regional rivalries with HU and NU. Add the nice trips up to New England to play UNH plus Maine, and you have a real winner.

I think we can all see this "Northern" conference coming together. 1st Stony Brook...now Fordham....Albany next at 63? Question--on the FU board they stated they are staying at 57 schollies...does that qualify for FBS bowl game criteria?

[OLPOP]

See the first post in this thread. It says Fordham is at 58.

[danefan]

I think we can all see this "Northern" conference coming together. 1st Stony Brook...now Fordham....Albany next at 63? Question--on the FU board they stated they are staying at 57 schollies...does that qualify for FBS bowl game criteria?

I believe the criteria to be a counter is the FCS school must be offer an average of 90% of 63 for previous two years.

That would mean you have to average 56.7 rides to be a counter.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Why i think it's great that Fordham is making a stand i have to question how much this will benefit the Rams football program. For most part Fordhams athletic programs are not very good. Their move to the A10 has been a real disaster in basketball. If you read their message board you'll see that everyone questions the schools commitment to the athletic program. I just don't see this really helping Fordham become a player on a national level. IMO they'll be a lot like Towson.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Holy cow.

[paward]

I am happy for fordham. It looks to be a well thought out plan. However, what message does it send to the other teams in the conference that can't see themselves going to schollies. We all know that it is about money. Some schools will have to work with endowments and/or ticket sales. That may not be an option for some. The next PL meeting will be to say the least "A hot mess".

[DetroitFlyer]

See the first post in this thread. It says Fordham is at 58.

Glad to hear that the team we best the last two years was an FCS counter. I had FU pegged at about 55....

[Fordham]

Great points about a game v. Fordham counting as a counter. The fact that we're playing UCONN really re-affirms for me that we're committed to this since I can't imagine they'd agree to schedule us if we didn't count.


Why i think it's great that Fordham is making a stand i have to question how much this will benefit the Rams football program. For most part Fordhams athletic programs are not very good. Their move to the A10 has been a real disaster in basketball. If you read their message board you'll see that everyone questions the schools commitment to the athletic program. I just don't see this really helping Fordham become a player on a national level. IMO they'll be a lot like Towson.

Football is really the only program that's funded on par with its peers imo. The result has been some decent success in this decade. There's no question that this helps our football program immensely, any way you slice it. I don't follow the reasoning that because our alums bemoan the current state of our hoops program that it means that we shouldn't take a clear step forward in football.


Holy cow.

Agreed!


I am happy for fordham. It looks to be a well thought out plan. However, what message does it send to the other teams in the conference that can't see themselves going to schollies. We all know that it is about money. Some schools will have to work with endowments and/or ticket sales. That may not be an option for some. The next PL meeting will be to say the least "A hot mess".
Thanks. The only thing I question in that is why it needs to cost any PL school any more $$ to make the conversion. Georgetown funds 22 equivalencies now and they'll get 22 scholarships to work with. Colgate funds 55 or 60 and they get that amount. It doesn't necessarily mean more $$ are required ... just that whatever you spend today in equivalencies can be used more effectively as scholarships.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Football is really the only program that's funded on par with its peers imo. The result has been some decent success in this decade. There's no question that this helps our football program immensely, any way you slice it. I don't follow the reasoning that because our alums bemoan the current state of our hoops program that it means that we shouldn't take a clear step forward in football.



Why wouldn't you worry about bringing the other programs up to atleast a competive level first before you to take football to the next level? You're basically acknowledging that the other programs ARE underfunded compared to their peers. You seem fine with that fact that the school is willing to spend money on football and let the bball and the other sports remain terrible. If this move is anything like Fordhams move to the A10 it's not going to make football any better. I just don't quite follow.

[Go...gate]

Holy cow.

You said it. I'm happy for Fordham.

[MplsBison]

Glad to hear that the team we best the last two years was an FCS counter. I had FU pegged at about 55....


It's too bad Dayton will never be selected to the playoffs.

[Go...gate]

This certainly appears to be a confirmed story. Clearly, the PL has some decisions to make and time is short.

Assuming Fordham leaves, the PL can legally survive as a six-team league and retain its autobid, but it is an awfully dicey situation.

[aceinthehole]

Great news!!!!!!!

I would love to see a new football conference form with the following members:

Albany
Central Connecticut
Fordham
Maine
UMass
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Stony Brook

Ideally you find a 9th member so you play an 8-game conference schedule.

[danefan]

Great news!!!!!!!

I would love to see a new football conference form with the following members:

Albany
Central Connecticut
Fordham
Maine
UMass
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Stony Brook

Ideally you find a 9th member so you play an 8-game conference schedule.

That is absolutely ideal!

Two big hurdles there - (1) UMass and (2) the AQ.

UMass is the key the entire CAA North division, IMO.

UNH isn't leaving the CAA without UMass (why would they?) and I just don't see UMass leaving without something more than Albany, CCSU, Fordham and SBU as the proverbial "carrot". I think you could get URI and Maine to come along pretty easily, especially if you get UMass and UNH.

[Seawolf97]

Good for Fordham! Sounds a little like what StonyBrook did leaving the NEC after 2006. Although being an independent has alot of downsides -hopefully they will find a conference quickly.

[Franks Tanks]

Good for Fordham! Sounds a little like what StonyBrook did leaving the NEC after 2006. Although being an independent has alot of downsides -hopefully they will find a conference quickly.

It is not a forgone conclusion that they will leave. Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate also fund to pretty much the level of Fordham. Frank Taviani, Lafayette HC, has pretty much come out in support of scholly's and I would think Lehigh and Colgate would as well. Holy Cross, Bucknell and Georgetown? I have no idea.

Keep in mind that the PL caved on B-Ball scholly's when Holy Cross demanded them so why cant that happen again?

[aceinthehole]

That is absolutely ideal!

Two big hurdles there - (1) UMass and (2) the AQ.

UMass is the key the entire CAA North division, IMO.

UNH isn't leaving the CAA without UMass (why would they?) and I just don't see UMass leaving without something more than Albany, CCSU, Fordham and SBU as the proverbial "carrot". I think you could get URI and Maine to come along pretty easily, especially if you get UMass and UNH.

DF - I agree but, I have a twist for you.

1) UMass isn't likely the biggest hurdle, as much as its UNH. Sure UMass would prefer the CAA, but if they aren't in the same division with Delaware and JMU (also 'Nova and Richmond to an extent) - what's the real advantages to a crowded CAA? Yes, the CAA is stronger, but don't kid yourself UMass would love to have a little easier shot at the playoffs and they would still compete for a National title. From the UMass perspective, is Albany/CCSU much that much of a downgrade than Towson, or soon to be members GSU and ODU?

I think an eaiser road to a conference title combined with travel savings may make sense for UMass. As for UNH, I heard from a highly placed AE source (a SUNY source more directly) that UNH is pretty "snobby" about their athletics. Since, UA and SBU are already in the conference that shouldn't be a problem, and of course Fordham has a great profile. That's certainly where I see CCSU (or a Monmouth/Duq/Bryant/etc) on the outside looking in, without big support from other memebers.

2) Rememeber the AQ is granted if you meet the requirements as a conference. If the CAA would let Northeastern play football outside the conference, then we meet the requirements of 5 teams together for 4 years. I'd also think the conference champ would get an at-large anyway. It would only be a temporary problem.

Any chance that they would let NU play out of conference for football?

[danefan]

DF - I agree but, I have a twist for you.

1) UMass isn't likely the biggest hurdle, as much as its UNH. Sure UMass would prefer the CAA, but if they aren't in the same division with Delaware and JMU (also 'Nova and Richmond to an extent) - what's the real advantages to a crowded CAA? Yes, the CAA is stronger, but don't kid yourself UMass would love to have a little easier shot at the playoffs and they would still compete for a National title. From the UMass perspective, is Albany/CCSU much that much of a downgrade than Towson, or soon to be members GSU and ODU?

I think an eaiser road to a conference title combined with travel savings may make sense for UMass. As for UNH, I heard from a highly placed AE source (a SUNY source more directly) that UNH is pretty "snobby" about their athletics. Since, UA and SBU are already in the conference that shouldn't be a problem, and of course Fordham has a great profile. That's certainly where I see CCSU (or a Monmouth/Duq/Bryant/etc) on the outside looking in, without big support from other memebers.

2) Rememeber the AQ is granted if you meet the requirements as a conference. If the CAA would let Northeastern play football outside the conference, then we meet the requirements of 5 teams together for 4 years. I'd also think the conference champ would get an at-large anyway. It would only be a temporary problem.

Any chance that they would let NU play out of conference for football?

Good points.
One correction is that the AQ requirement is actually 6 teams for the previous two years. So in order to get an AQ a new conference would need to start with 6 from the CAA

Umass
UNH
URI
Maine
Northeastern????
Hofstra????

[SuperJon]

That is absolutely ideal!

Two big hurdles there - (1) UMass and (2) the AQ.

UMass is the key the entire CAA North division, IMO.

UNH isn't leaving the CAA without UMass (why would they?) and I just don't see UMass leaving without something more than Albany, CCSU, Fordham and SBU as the proverbial "carrot". I think you could get URI and Maine to come along pretty easily, especially if you get UMass and UNH.

I disagree with this. UMass would probably love to play in a conference where they have the best shot to get into the playoffs every year. They'd be just like Montana in terms of being the favorite to get the auto every single year. To me, that's better than fighting 37 other teams for the autobid.

[dgreco]

Good points.
One correction is that the AQ requirement is actually 6 teams for the previous two years. So in order to get an AQ a new conference would need to start with 6 from the CAA

Umass
UNH
URI
Maine
Northeastern????
Hofstra????

Add CCSU, Albany, Fordham and SBU and you have 10 man conference. I am sure 9 is more ideal.
So would they go without NEU and HU and try to lure another school maybe a Monmouth?

[aceinthehole]

Add CCSU, Albany, Fordham and SBU and you have 10 man conference. I am sure 9 is more ideal.
So would they go without NEU and HU and try to lure another school maybe a Monmouth?

Husky Alum could probably speak to this directly, but I don't think the CAA really wants any of its all-sports members (NU or Hofstra) to play football outside of the CAA.

NU left America East for all sports and handed to the CAA a football conference (former A-10). Why would the CAA let NU play football in another conference? Furthermore, does NU really want to leave the CAA for football only?

And where does this scenrio leave Hofstra???? Can the CAA afford/want both NU and HU play football outside of the CAA?

[ngineer]

I am glad some school has had the balls to make this decision. This forces everyone else's hand and not much time to waste. If the rest of the PL does not follow suit, they might as well go D-III as they'll be becoming more and more irrelevant in the national picture---or form a true alliance with the IL
I also agree with Frank--LC, CU, and LU I would think are right behind them--and I would expect HC as well. BU and GU are bigger question marks.

[Fordham]

Why wouldn't you worry about bringing the other programs up to atleast a competive level first before you to take football to the next level? You're basically acknowledging that the other programs ARE underfunded compared to their peers. You seem fine with that fact that the school is willing to spend money on football and let the bball and the other sports remain terrible. If this move is anything like Fordhams move to the A10 it's not going to make football any better. I just don't quite follow.

xconfusedxxconfusedx
your argument was that we have performed poorly in hoops since moving to the A10 and therefore we're likely to suffer the same result when our football program goes scholarship. I simply gave you a valid reason why football should be expected to perform much better than hoops (and our other sports) has done.

I don't get what that has to do with where you took your point to in this post. Are you saying you think I should advocate reducing football money in order to spread it around to other sports? Or is your point that the extra money we're going to spend to go scholarship should be given to other sports? Either one has a surprisingly simple answer to it.

[JoltinJoe]

I am glad some school has had the balls to make this decision. This forces everyone else's hand and not much time to waste. If the rest of the PL does not follow suit, they might as well go D-III as they'll be becoming more and more irrelevant in the national picture---or form a true alliance with the IL
I also agree with Frank--LC, CU, and LU I would think are right behind them--and I would expect HC as well. BU and GU are bigger question marks.

Then again, Nick, the last time we had the balls to do this, we wound up in leaving the PL and going to the A-10.

[Fordham]

I am glad some school has had the balls to make this decision. This forces everyone else's hand and not much time to waste. If the rest of the PL does not follow suit, they might as well go D-III as they'll be becoming more and more irrelevant in the national picture---or form a true alliance with the IL
I also agree with Frank--LC, CU, and LU I would think are right behind them--and I would expect HC as well. BU and GU are bigger question marks.xthumbsupxxhurrayx

Btw, one thing that was made clear is that the PL allowing scholarships (either by mandating them or allowing each institution to make their own decision on the matter as I believe they did for hoops) means that we stay in the PL. Given the AI decision, I didn't think that was necessarily true. So, let's hope that this rallies the pro-scholly PL schools and gets us some momentum on the issue.

[DFW HOYA]

It is not a forgone conclusion that they will leave. Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate also fund to pretty much the level of Fordham. Frank Taviani, Lafayette HC, has pretty much come out in support of scholly's and I would think Lehigh and Colgate would as well. Holy Cross, Bucknell and Georgetown? I have no idea.

It doeen't matter what Tavani, Coen, Gilmore, etc. think, it's what their presidents think, and it's no guarantee that they feel the same way as their coaches do.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

DF - I agree but, I have a twist for you.

1) UMass isn't likely the biggest hurdle, as much as its UNH. Sure UMass would prefer the CAA, but if they aren't in the same division with Delaware and JMU (also 'Nova and Richmond to an extent) - what's the real advantages to a crowded CAA? Yes, the CAA is stronger, but don't kid yourself UMass would love to have a little easier shot at the playoffs and they would still compete for a National title. From the UMass perspective, is Albany/CCSU much that much of a downgrade than Towson, or soon to be members GSU and ODU?

I think an eaiser road to a conference title combined with travel savings may make sense for UMass. As for UNH, I heard from a highly placed AE source (a SUNY source more directly) that UNH is pretty "snobby" about their athletics. Since, UA and SBU are already in the conference that shouldn't be a problem, and of course Fordham has a great profile. That's certainly where I see CCSU (or a Monmouth/Duq/Bryant/etc) on the outside looking in, without big support from other memebers.

2) Rememeber the AQ is granted if you meet the requirements as a conference. If the CAA would let Northeastern play football outside the conference, then we meet the requirements of 5 teams together for 4 years. I'd also think the conference champ would get an at-large anyway. It would only be a temporary problem.

Any chance that they would let NU play out of conference for football?

If you don't think UMass is the biggest hurdle, then you haven't read these boards close enough. I do believe UMass posters were quite negative about the two divisions within the CAA back in that 14 team thread. IMO, UMass doesn't want a virtual rubber stamp into the playoffs, they want a league and schedule that prepares then to compete for national championships.

If having academic standards for athletes above the NCAA minimum and expecting athletes to be STUDENT-athletes and to graduate makes UNH "snobby", then I have absolutely no problem with that.

You folks are freaking dreaming if you think the CAA would allow NU and HU to play football outside the CAA and even more so for thinking that NU and HU would want to. xoopsx

[blukeys]

I am glad some school has had the balls to make this decision. This forces everyone else's hand and not much time to waste. If the rest of the PL does not follow suit, they might as well go D-III as they'll be becoming more and more irrelevant in the national picture---or form a true alliance with the IL
I also agree with Frank--LC, CU, and LU I would think are right behind them--and I would expect HC as well. BU and GU are bigger question marks.

I am on board with ngineer completely!!! It is time the PL got off of their fannies and fished or cut bait.

I know that part of this is that Fordham got hammered on the AI requirement but what a statement they have made!!!!!

I hope the PL presidents look into their trowsers and discover some kahones so that the PL can keep pace with the improvements that keep coming in the CAA and the NEC.

Fordham, way to throw down the gauntlet!!!xthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsup x

Ain't it time the PL finally stepped up???

[seahawkfan2007]

Congrats to Tom Masella (and Fordham). This move makes real good long term economic sense, will create enthusiasm throughout the entire athletic program, and could make Fordam a contender for a FCS National Championship. I may change me name from "Seahawkfan2007" to "Ramsfan 2009" if Masella's alma mater can't schedule some quality OOC games.

[Wildcat80]

Uh...just to be clear UNH does not yield any "supremacy" to UMass or anyone else. We & our record stand alone. If that's snobby we can live with that. Changes are acoming....

[blukeys]

Uh...just to be clear UNH does not yield any "supremacy" to UMass or anyone else. We & our record stand alone. If that's snobby we can live with that. Changes are acoming....

Very nice WC80!!xthumbsupx

Point taken!!xsmiley_wixxsmiley_wixxsmiley_wixxrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[aceinthehole]

If you don't think UMass is the biggest hurdle, then you haven't read these boards close enough. I do believe UMass posters were quite negative about the two divisions within the CAA back in that 14 team thread. IMO, UMass doesn't want a virtual rubber stamp into the playoffs, they want a league and schedule that prepares then to compete for national championships.

If having academic standards for athletes above the NCAA minimum and expecting athletes to be STUDENT-athletes and to graduate makes UNH "snobby", then I have absolutely no problem with that.

You folks are freaking dreaming if you think the CAA would allow NU and HU to play football outside the CAA and even more so for thinking that NU and HU would want to. xoopsx

First, with all due respect, sometime there is a big difference between what fans post here and what an AD will actually do. UMass fans may have an opinion on what they want, but don't be so sure that the administration agrees with that POV. Some UMass fans have UConn-envy and think the Minutemen should upgrade and to FBS. Clearly, the fiscal and political realities in Amherst prevent such a move. So I won't take posting of the board as gospel.

Mark my words, once the conference schedule limits UNH and UMass to a home game with Delaware or JMU every 3 to 6 years, the CAA attraction will wear off quickly. Do you think UMass is chomping at the bit for home games vs. GSU, ODU, etc. just because they wear a CAA patch? If UMass can't get a favorable schedule on a consistant basis, they will look at other options. Especially, if they find it too difficlut to schedule and get a bid to the playoffs.

I honestly don't think he was refering just to UNH's academic standards. He felt that certain AE schools (UNH was one of them) don't want any change to the status quo and don't want to compromise or be proactive on anything. Again, I don't think its just about maintaining high student standards, but represents the story we heard before regarding the old AE-CAA merger that fell through. UNH didn't want W&M, ODU, etc. in the AE regardless of their outstanding academics.

As for your second point, I agree. I don't see how NU or HU could or would want to play football outside of the CAA right now. That's a big stumbiling block to get a core number of Northern teams to form a new conference.

[DFW HOYA]

This move makes real good long term economic sense, will create enthusiasm throughout the entire athletic program, and could make Fordam a contender for a FCS National Championship.

Outside of the CAA, how would they contend?

[carney2]

No one has mentioned if there are Title IX implications in all of this scholarship talk. In the past it has been referred to by many as the 2,000 pound gorilla in all of this. It's time that someone clarified things for those of us who know only that a rule exists, but have no idea what it is.

1. Will Fordham, or anyone else going scholarship, now have to fund an equal number of play for pay rides for women?

or

2. Does the fact that Fordham already has 57 or 58 or whatever equivalencies take care of this, and no Title IX adjustments will be necessary?

If the answer is number 1 above, Title IX will be key in the decision process. I'm confused. How about you?

[Cobblestone]

Great news!!!!!!!

I would love to see a new football conference form with the following members:

Albany
Central Connecticut
Fordham
Maine
UMass
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Stony Brook

Ideally you find a 9th member so you play an 8-game conference schedule.

Agree. How about Northeastern as that 9th member?

[ngineer]

It doeen't matter what Tavani, Coen, Gilmore, etc. think, it's what their presidents think, and it's no guarantee that they feel the same way as their coaches do.

I think the ADs hold a lot of sway in this , too, as well as the BOTs even moreso. Few presidents take the lead on these issues...They get their information and preferences from the other two and make the decision, unless the BOT directs a specific outcome. I think LC and LU's BOTs would go with schollies if CU follows suit with Fordham.

[Bull Fan]

Lafayette's new facilities are gorgeous. I can't imagine that investment was for naught.

[Franks Tanks]

I think the ADs hold a lot of sway in this , too, as well as the BOTs even moreso. Few presidents take the lead on these issues...They get their information and preferences from the other two and make the decision, unless the BOT directs a specific outcome. I think LC and LU's BOTs would go with schollies if CU follows suit with Fordham.

Agree-- Lafayette and Lehigh would not allow a difference-- if one goes both will. I also think both schools would keep pace with Colgate. There is a handful of small, private, academically oriented schools in FCS and we need to continue to stick together. Scholly's are not an unreasonable request and should be adpoted to preserve the union.

Also would schools still be able to offer a mix of scholly's and need based financial aid? So perhaps Colgate gives 40 scholly's and fills out the rest of the roster with need based aid guys. Is that allowable or even worth attempting? Also if scholly's are allowed we may be looking at a limit below the 63 so keep everyone happy.

[Franks Tanks]

Lafayette's new facilities are gorgeous. I can't imagine that investment was for naught.

No way. Lafayette is far, far more likley go to full scholarship than downgrade the program.

[Pard94]

No way. Lafayette is far, far more likley go to full scholarship than downgrade the program.

Agreed. The administration knows enough not to piss off alumni who write huge checks.

I'd love to know what Fordham thought the PL would do with this announcement. they must have some idea of how the wind will blow on this. I tend to think they must think the rest of the PL will follow suit as I can't the instability of going independant was there primary choice.

[CRAZY_DANE]

So the thing that PL Commish eluded to months ago happening in June 2009 is either:

1. PL is going scholarship; or
2. Fordham is leaving after the 09 season.


This could really shakeup the FCS world. It was indicated that 2010 would be an Indy season but with an eye on going to a conference. I would love to see Albany, Fordham and SBU get together and do one of two things:

1. Persuade a few CAA North Division teams to form a new conference.
2. Persuade the Big South to rebrand and become the Big America conference to be more conducive to northeastern teams being involved.

Fordham is sacrificing the affiliations it has with PL schools, but it only has them for football anyway and in football, conferences are more scheduling arrangements than anything else, especially in FCS.

I hope this is the foundation for New York full schollie football teams. We need a full schollie FCS conference or division. Albany needs to be a part of this new alignment.

[Jackman]

DF - I agree but, I have a twist for you.

1) UMass isn't likely the biggest hurdle, as much as its UNH. Sure UMass would prefer the CAA, but if they aren't in the same division with Delaware and JMU (also 'Nova and Richmond to an extent) - what's the real advantages to a crowded CAA? Yes, the CAA is stronger, but don't kid yourself UMass would love to have a little easier shot at the playoffs and they would still compete for a National title. From the UMass perspective, is Albany/CCSU much that much of a downgrade than Towson, or soon to be members GSU and ODU?
But if most of the rest of the CAA North leaves, UMass gets its annual games with Delaware and Nova back because they'll be moved to the North, and we could pick and choose which of the old Yankee to play non-conference. What do we gain by leaving? The 14 team alignment calls for only one road trip to the CAA South per year. Who is going to replace that one and only inconvenient game? We already have Albany and Stony Brook on the schedule. Is it Central Connecticut? That's the big carrot, we get a road game at CCSU instead of playing in the Georgia Dome? Why would we do that? Yes, we're not happy with the trend in the CAA that sees us playing fewer games against some important traditional rivals, but all leaving does is assure that we never play them. And instead we'd be playing all the teams we already play plus elevating the programs at local competitors like Albany, CCSU and SB? How is that in our best interests? A single plane trip doesn't cost THAT much, and half the time it's against a desirable opponent. You need to give UMass more reasons to leave than swapping @GSU for @CCSU.

[carney2]

Agree-- Lafayette and Lehigh would not allow a difference-- if one goes both will.

Yeah, just like basketball.xsmhxxeyebrowx You have far more faith in the bureaucrats at our alma mater than I. Frankly (no pun intended), I am getting a little uneasy about what I perceive as eroding support for athletics on College Hill.

[blukeys]

No one has mentioned if there are Title IX implications in all of this scholarship talk. In the past it has been referred to by many as the 2,000 pound gorilla in all of this. It's time that someone clarified things for those of us who know only that a rule exists, but have no idea what it is.

1. Will Fordham, or anyone else going scholarship, now have to fund an equal number of play for pay rides for women?

or

2. Does the fact that Fordham already has 57 or 58 or whatever equivalencies take care of this, and no Title IX adjustments will be necessary?

If the answer is number 1 above, Title IX will be key in the decision process. I'm confused. How about you?


Equivalencies offered by the PL count the same in the Title IX equation as regular scholarships. There will only be a need for additional women's scollys if a school increases it's numbers of scollies over its current amount.

Trust me if schools could avoid Title IX issues by going the PL route then every football player in the FCS would be getting a needs based grant in aid.

[89Hen]

Great news!!!!!!!

I would love to see a new football conference form with the following members:

Albany
Central Connecticut
Fordham
Maine
UMass
New Hampshire
Rhode Island
Stony Brook

Ideally you find a 9th member so you play an 8-game conference schedule.
Take Villanova and Richmond too. Then we can have an all-sports CAA. xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

Take Villanova and Richmond too. Then we can have an all-sports CAA. xthumbsupx

Don't tell that to Drexel, Mason, UNCW, etc...

[89Hen]

Don't tell that to Drexel, Mason, UNCW, etc...
I'm fine with them. They play all their sports in the CAA. xpeacex

[RichH2]

Wow, if only AGS controlled re alignments. However, the fallout will not be quite what people seem to expect.While I have little confidence in the Pres of the PL schools, as the shakeout from the economic hurricane plays out, I would expect LU,Gate and LC which are in relatively solid shape to back the move to schollies at least at the same expenditure level as currently in place. Benefits FU I think if they are at 57 now as that is more than anyone elsein PL

[carney2]

There seems to be some level of "done deal" rhetoric on this board regarding the Patriot League going scholarship for football. Need I remind you what it took to get it done for basketball?

1. Fordham, an all sports member at that time, said that they needed basketball scholarships and would have to leave the league if they didn't get them. The Patriot League, in essence, said "Let us know how it works out." Fordham took their hoops dreams - and everything else except football - to the A-10.

2. A short time later Holy Cross came along with the same story. The league was, once again, reluctant to move.

3. Army said "If Holy Cross goes, we go too." They didn't want or need basketball scholarships. They simply saw the league falling apart around them and were unwilling to be part of the breakup. The league caved.

4. Even with all of that, only Holy Cross and Lehigh granted basketball scholarships. The other 3 (Bucknell, Colgate and Lafayette - American was not yet a league member) held out until the next century. Lafayette had a president who did a marvelous impersonation of Don Quixote and went to his retirement jousting at his windmills and not recognizing the fait accompli that had risen up and bitten him in the duff. It took a new administration to see the writing on the wall and recognize that maybe the school should not be going down this non-scholarship trail alone.

So, what do you think this bunch will do with football scholarships where we're not talking a dozen, but are looking at dozens? The presidents have a constituency that extends way beyond the people on this board and their narrow views. This will be difficult.

[MplsBison]

There seems to be some level of "done deal" rhetoric on this board regarding the Patriot League going scholarship for football. Need I remind you what it took to get it done for basketball?

1. Fordham, an all sports member at that time, said that they needed basketball scholarships and would have to leave the league if they didn't get them. The Patriot League, in essence, said "Let us know how it works out." Fordham took their hoops dreams - and everything else except football - to the A-10.

2. A short time later Holy Cross came along with the same story. The league was, once again, reluctant to move.

3. Army said "If Holy Cross goes, we go too." They didn't want or need basketball scholarships. They simply saw the league falling apart around them and were unwilling to be part of the breakup. The league caved.

4. Even with all of that, only Holy Cross and Lehigh granted basketball scholarships. The other 3 (Bucknell, Colgate and Lafayette - American was not yet a league member) held out until the next century. Lafayette had a president who did a marvelous impersonation of Don Quixote and went to his retirement jousting at his windmills and not recognizing the fait accompli.

So, what do you think this bunch will do with football scholarships where we're not talking a dozen, but are looking at dozens? The presidents have a constituency that extends way beyond the people on this board and their narrow views. This will be difficult.

In other words, goodbye Fordham.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

First, with all due respect, sometime there is a big difference between what fans post here and what an AD will actually do. UMass fans may have an opinion on what they want, but don't be so sure that the administration agrees with that POV. Some UMass fans have UConn-envy and think the Minutemen should upgrade and to FBS. Clearly, the fiscal and political realities in Amherst prevent such a move. So I won't take posting of the board as gospel.

Mark my words, once the conference schedule limits UNH and UMass to a home game with Delaware or JMU every 3 to 6 years, the CAA attraction will wear off quickly. Do you think UMass is chomping at the bit for home games vs. GSU, ODU, etc. just because they wear a CAA patch? If UMass can't get a favorable schedule on a consistant basis, they will look at other options. Especially, if they find it too difficlut to schedule and get a bid to the playoffs.

I honestly don't think he was refering just to UNH's academic standards. He felt that certain AE schools (UNH was one of them) don't want any change to the status quo and don't want to compromise or be proactive on anything. Again, I don't think its just about maintaining high student standards, but represents the story we heard before regarding the old AE-CAA merger that fell through. UNH didn't want W&M, ODU, etc. in the AE regardless of their outstanding academics.

I'd like to think that some of the UMass posters actually have conversations with their AD and have indications of their school's desires from attending functions at their alma mater. And most of the posters are fairly grounded in their opinions. Sure, UMass has UConn envy and many of their fans have FBS desires. Massachusetts is a bigger state and UMass is a bigger school than CT and UConn. Those desires are only natural. Isn't UMass the largest flagship not in FBS? And short of FBS, because of the size of the school, UMass will want to play at the highest level for all their sports. UMass will natually want to be associated with the bigger FCS schools and those growing.

Only time will tell on your opinion about the CAA attraction wearing thin. For UNH, it has been playing football against Delaware since the 50's and playing them less than twice in four years is not good. But we still don't know what the scheduling is going to be in the future. Who knows maybe each North school gets to have a designated rival in the South. If you ask the Presidents of UNH and UD, you just might find that UNH and Delaware would become designated rivals. As much as UMass would want that game, I believe if left to the presidents that UNH would get the nod.

For UNH, I believe the CAA Attraction is playing at the highest level of FCS, playing schools that also provide positive recognition in the Mid-Atlantic where UNH recruiting relies, maintaining football ties with Hofstra and especially Northeastern, etc. As long as UNH keeps Delaware on its schedule in some rotation (without the CAA the only game with them would be a money game when they chose to schedule us) and gets a mix of CAA schools in the Mid-Atlantic and Virginia, then to me that's still a better option than any of the new Yankee proposals I've seen. Frankly, I think scheduling would be more difficult outside the CAA. And by scheduling, I mean one that would provide the strength to be a consistent at large candidate. And don't forget like the UMass poster said, one re-alignment option is for Delaware and Villanova to join the North. Even if it was Delaware and Towson, that would be a fine alternative for UNH. I've even heard discussion about having three divisions so who knows yet what the scheduling is going to be. I'm not assuming like you that the attraction is going to end quickly.

As for UNH and not wanting change, I'm afraid there are always some old timers with that old Yankee Farmer attitude within the UNH family. It's just a trait of the state, but one that I see lessening with every decade. Unfortunately, at the time of the AE-CAA merger, UNH had some of its weakest leadership. Well, unless you're more interested in women's sports. If that event occurred today, I truly believe UNH would take a completely different role. Our current AD had just come on the job and he was too new to take a prominent role. He would have been a champion for football rather than the care less leadership that existed at the time. And I know from talking with a professor that there is a segment of Academia at UNH today that would much prefer UNH to be associated with Delaware, W&M and JMU in all sports.

But saying that UNH won't change or take initiative because they won't jump on any of these New Yankee proposals is a crock. They just don't provide UNH enough reasons to change or lead toward something new. If these were such great proposals, why didn't UMass force Linda Bruno and the A-10 to come up with a solution while they still had the AQ? I know I heard discussion about bringing Fordham and Duquesne (all sports A-10 members) on board, but that never happened. Why isn't UMass coming to UNH and saying hey we've got to take the lead and form a new football league?

You know, nothing is stopping the NEC from taking the bull by the horn and becoming attractive enough to entice schools to join them. And one wouldn't have left. Nothing is stopping the Patriot League from making decisions that would make them attractive enough to join. Shoot, with different decisions and foresight, the Patriot could today probably have W&M, Richmond, Villanova, Hofstra and/or Northeastern. How different would the landscape be today?


As for your second point, I agree. I don't see how NU or HU could or would want to play football outside of the CAA right now. That's a big stumbiling block to get a core number of Northern teams to form a new conference.

Stumbling block? How about virtually an insurmountable barrier!! Frankly, only some new all sports association would get Northeastern or Hofstra out of CAA Football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Then he dropped the bombshell. Fordham has told the PL that we're going full scholarship next season. Preferably within the PL but we'll go independent if they don't move. We currently fund 58 equivalencies - plan is to stick with that and the argument is 'no more money but much more bang for our buck'.

The more I look at this part of the statement, the more I'm scratching my head.

Fordham is saying that they are currently funding 58 equivalencies now. So they're spending the money. That's true whether they stay in the PL or not. That also means they're implying that they're already in compliance with Title IX.

So what does this "ultimatum" give them?

* Five more scholarships

* No more need formulas

* Allowing the Fordham athletic department to no longer talk to admissions before admitting athletes

This is being painted as some sort of epiphany for Fordham athletics if this is passed. But aside from the institutional changes, only five more potential scholarships are the net of the gain for the football program. This isn't a move to FBS, where all football players would suddenly become full scholarships - FCS schools split up schollies all the time.

Let's just put it this way: I could see this being an epiphany if Fordham was limping along at 50+ equivalencies and felt constrained by the AI and aid formulas. But that's not how this is being sold. This is being sold as "we're already at 58 equivs, and this change would give us an advantage that currently the PL does not give us. Besides, the AI sucks!".

Basically, in the end, what is so different about 58 PL equivalencies and 63 FCS scholarships? The REAL answer to that question is the AI.

[carney2]

In other words, goodbye Fordham.

Not necessarily. Every school in the league now has scholarships in multiple sports, which was not true at the time basketball was being debated. Perhaps getting the first batch approved is the hardest thing to do(?). The three biggest hurdles at the moment as I see it are:

1. The sheer size of a football program as compared to anything else going on in the athletic department. This will weigh differently at each of the institutions in the equation. At Lafayette, the smallest, for instance, with 63 scholarships that would mean that around 5% of the school's male population would be paid to play football. The number is lower for the others, but my point is that these are all small schools and, unlike most schools in, for instance the CAA, this is a pretty big number.

2. Title IX: is it a factor or not? Does it weigh equally with each school? (That final point has not been considered, but some of the schools may be better able to weather a Title IX storm than others, depending on what they already have in place.)

3. Unlike any other sport, football is a very emotional, and even irrational issue for certain segments of the academic community. There is no reasoning possible with these groups. You simply have to appeal to other segments of the community and hope to outvote them.

[Pard94]

There seems to be some level of "done deal" rhetoric on this board regarding the Patriot League going scholarship for football. Need I remind you what it took to get it done for basketball?

1. Fordham, an all sports member at that time, said that they needed basketball scholarships and would have to leave the league if they didn't get them. The Patriot League, in essence, said "Let us know how it works out." Fordham took their hoops dreams - and everything else except football - to the A-10.

2. A short time later Holy Cross came along with the same story. The league was, once again, reluctant to move.

3. Army said "If Holy Cross goes, we go too." They didn't want or need basketball scholarships. They simply saw the league falling apart around them and were unwilling to be part of the breakup. The league caved.

4. Even with all of that, only Holy Cross and Lehigh granted basketball scholarships. The other 3 (Bucknell, Colgate and Lafayette - American was not yet a league member) held out until the next century. Lafayette had a president who did a marvelous impersonation of Don Quixote and went to his retirement jousting at his windmills and not recognizing the fait accompli that had risen up and bitten him in the duff. It took a new administration to see the writing on the wall and recognize that maybe the school should not be going down this non-scholarship trail alone.

So, what do you think this bunch will do with football scholarships where we're not talking a dozen, but are looking at dozens? The presidents have a constituency that extends way beyond the people on this board and their narrow views. This will be difficult.

Carney, do you think it might just be possible that these exemplary institutions of higher learning may just be smart enough to learn from their mistakes? You're operating under the assumption that they didn't happen to notice that the sky remained firmly in place despite having full atheltic scholarships in place for one of their major sports. you previously mentioned you fear a growing lack of support for athletics at Lafayette. Based on what? Was it the new $33 million dollar football facility? Man, lose one game to Lehigh and you go off the deep end.

[danefan]

The more I look at this part of the statement, the more I'm scratching my head.

Fordham is saying that they are currently funding 58 equivalencies now. So they're spending the money. That's true whether they stay in the PL or not. That also means they're implying that they're already in compliance with Title IX.

So what does this "ultimatum" give them?

* Five more scholarships

* No more need formulas

* Allowing the Fordham athletic department to no longer talk to admissions before admitting athletes

This is being painted as some sort of epiphany for Fordham athletics if this is passed. But aside from the institutional changes, only five more potential scholarships are the net of the gain for the football program. This isn't a move to FBS, where all football players would suddenly become full scholarships - FCS schools split up schollies all the time.

Let's just put it this way: I could see this being an epiphany if Fordham was limping along at 50+ equivalencies and felt constrained by the AI and aid formulas. But that's not how this is being sold. This is being sold as "we're already at 58 equivs, and this change would give us an advantage that currently the PL does not give us. Besides, the AI sucks!".

Basically, in the end, what is so different about 58 PL equivalencies and 63 FCS scholarships? The REAL answer to that question is the AI.

The AI is a large reason for Fordham to leave the PL, but I don't necessarily think they want to leave the PL.

The motivation people are ignoring is wanting the ability to recruit without being confined to athletes with a certain net wealth.

When you combine the AI with need-based aid your recruiting pool is very thin. Fordham is saying, IMO, the AI sucks, but we'll deal with it if you get rid of the need-based component of our athletic aid.

[Fordham]

The AI is a large reason for Fordham to leave the PL, but I don't necessarily think they want to leave the PL.

The motivation people are ignoring is wanting the ability to recruit without being confined to athletes with a certain net wealth.

When you combine the AI with need-based aid your recruiting pool is very thin. Fordham is saying, IMO, the AI sucks, but we'll deal with it if you get rid of the need-based component of our athletic aid.

Bingo.

LFN, surprised you're putting so much weight behind the AI. The true win for scholarships is opening up recruiting so we can get away from need-based aid and recruit who we want. The only reason AI is really a factor is because Masella said that we were told by the league that they would both be implemented one-after-the-other. Then, they implemented AI and started to balk at scholarships.

[carney2]

Carney, do you think it might just be possible that these exemplary institutions of higher learning may just be smart enough to learn from their mistakes? You're operating under the assumption that they didn't happen to notice that the sky remained firmly in place despite having full atheltic scholarships in place for one of their major sports. you previously mentioned you fear a growing lack of support for athletics at Lafayette. Based on what? Was it the new $33 million dollar football facility? Man, lose one game to Lehigh and you go off the deep end.

If you read my most recent posts, you will find that, to some extent, I've argued a little on both sides of this issue. That should be ample evidence that, just like everyone else here, I don't have a clue. All I'm saying in the post you reference is that, given the history of this league, this will be difficult.

Oh yeah, I personally think that you are giving far too much weight to the new football facility in your conclusions. In the world of business that would be called a sunk cost. Decisions about what to do in the future - particularly when presented with a decision about a radically new future course of action - are never based on money you have already spent and that can't be unspent.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bingo.

LFN, surprised you're putting so much weight behind the AI. The true win for scholarships is opening up recruiting so we can get away from need-based aid and recruit who we want. The only reason AI is really a factor is because Masella said that we were told by the league that they would both be implemented one-after-the-other. Then, they implemented AI and started to balk at scholarships.

I am putting more weight behind that part of it only because in the same statement Masella said that Fordham is at 58 already and has been for some time (which is further corroborated by the fact that Fordham is scheduling money games). The fact that Fordham is at 58 already implies that Fordham is not having a problem attracting athletes to play for them or that the need-based part of the equation is an issue.

It's one thing to say we're at 45 equivalencies and we can't get enough athletes since we can't offer a good enough financial aid package. It's quite another to say that with 58 equivalencies, where you'd at a maximum be able to offer six more scholarship equivalents. The main benefit is not scholarships, but not dealing with the PL rules - one of which, the AI, was mentioned as part of a rumored quid-pro-quo with scholarships.

Anyway, both "no AI" and "no need to ask the admissions department" are two of the main "benefits" of leaving the PL. But "number of scholarships" to me look like a distant third - if indeed they're at issue at all. I get the impression that we both agree that it's not about the number of scholarships.

(BTW, I have zero problem with scheduling money games - matter of fact, I wish Lehigh could/would schedule them at least occasionally.)

[Pard94]

If you read my most recent posts, you will find that, to some extent, I've argued a little on both sides of this issue. That should be ample evidence that, just like everyone else here, I don't have a clue. All I'm saying in the post you reference is that, given the history of this league, this will be difficult.

Oh yeah, I personally think that you are giving far too much weight to the new football facility in your conclusions. In the world of business that would be called a sunk cost. Decisions about what to do in the future - particularly when presented with a decision about a radically new future course of action - are never based on money you have already spent and that can't be unspent.

I don't think the "sunk cost" would be the issue. It's certainly not the issue I'm pointing out. I'm talking about the cost of sinking the relationship with Bourger, Fisher and probably dozens of other alumni that may not be good for 7 figure checks but certainly could pony up 6 and 5 figure checks. Spitting on the new facilities would cost WAY more than the $33 million already spent. And scuttling Lafayette vs. Lehigh would certainly impact the 3 and 4 figure check writers. To suggest that this wouldn't factor greatly into any future decisions would be ridiculous.

[danefan]

I am putting more weight behind that part of it only because in the same statement Masella said that Fordham is at 58 already and has been for some time (which is further corroborated by the fact that Fordham is scheduling money games). The fact that Fordham is at 58 already implies that Fordham is not having a problem attracting athletes to play for them or that the need-based part of the equation is an issue.

It's one thing to say we're at 45 equivalencies and we can't get enough athletes since we can't offer a good enough financial aid package. It's quite another to say that with 58 equivalencies, where you'd at a maximum be able to offer six more scholarship equivalents. The main benefit is not scholarships, but not dealing with the PL rules - one of which, the AI, was mentioned as part of a rumored quid-pro-quo with scholarships.

Anyway, both "no AI" and "no need to ask the admissions department" are two of the main "benefits" of leaving the PL. But "number of scholarships" to me look like a distant third - if indeed they're at issue at all. I get the impression that we both agree that it's not about the number of scholarships.

(BTW, I have zero problem with scheduling money games - matter of fact, I wish Lehigh could/would schedule them at least occasionally.)

I believe you are still missing the point - its not the number of scholarships, but to whom Fordham can give those scholarships.

Right now Massella has been able to give 58 need-based equivalencies to kids whose parents didn't make too much money.

There's no telling how many kids Fordham (and other PL schools) have lost becuase their parents make just enough money to not qualify for "need based aid" but not enough to realistically afford Fordham, when Hofstra, Stony Brook and Albany come in right behind with a full scholarship.

With scholarships, that is no longer a problem.

Once again, its not having trouble attracting numbers. Its being restricted as to who you can recruit based on their parents income.

[Fordham]

I believe you are still missing the point - its not the number of scholarships, but to whom Fordham can give those scholarships.

Right now Massella has been able to give 58 need-based equivalencies to kids whose parents didn't make too much money.

There's no telling how many kids Fordham (and other PL schools) have lost becuase their parents make just enough money to not qualify for "need based aid" but not enough to realistically afford Fordham, when Hofstra, Stony Brook and Albany come in right behind with a full scholarship.

With scholarships, that is no longer a problem.

Once again, its not having trouble attracting numbers. Its being restricted as to who you can recruit based on their parents income.

Yet again - bingo.

[MDFAN]

I think the problem with equavalencies is that you are only permitted to receive financial aid up to your calculated need. My son for instance....35K in financial aid and I pick up the rest of the tab. If education didn't mean as much to his mother and I, he could have easily walked on at some other state school for roughly the equivalent. However with scholarships each school can determine how they would like to allocate. Full ride vs Partial ride.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I believe you are still missing the point - its not the number of scholarships, but to whom Fordham can give those scholarships.

Right now Massella has been able to give 58 need-based equivalencies to kids whose parents didn't make too much money.

There's no telling how many kids Fordham (and other PL schools) have lost becuase their parents make just enough money to not qualify for "need based aid" but not enough to realistically afford Fordham, when Hofstra, Stony Brook and Albany come in right behind with a full scholarship.

With scholarships, that is no longer a problem.

Once again, its not having trouble attracting numbers. Its being restricted as to who you can recruit based on their parents income.

But is money the limiting factor, or AI?

If money were the limiting factor, how come Fordham has managed to dole out 58 equivalencies? The number of equivalencies - and the fact that it had to be at that point for quite some time, since the average has to be 56.5 to schedule money games and have them "count" - seems to paint a very different picture. It sure looks like Fordham hasn't had a problem giving equivalencies for the past four years.

That's what's so strange - to claim that they're having so much trouble attracting students with their aid package, and then say that they're NOT having a problem giving out aid since they're averaging 58 equivalencies.

That, coupled with the quid-pro-quo AI talk...

[aceinthehole]

I'd like to think that some of the UMass posters actually have conversations with their AD and have indications of their school's desires from attending functions at their alma mater. And most of the posters are fairly grounded in their opinions. Sure, UMass has UConn envy and many of their fans have FBS desires. Massachusetts is a bigger state and UMass is a bigger school than CT and UConn. Those desires are only natural. Isn't UMass the largest flagship not in FBS? And short of FBS, because of the size of the school, UMass will want to play at the highest level for all their sports. UMass will natually want to be associated with the bigger FCS schools and those growing.

We agree on what UMass fans desire. There is a reason they aren't I-A now and a reason why they may never be. Politics and finances trump "desires" and "prefered associations."


Only time will tell on your opinion about the CAA attraction wearing thin. For UNH, it has been playing football against Delaware since the 50's and playing them less than twice in four years is not good. But we still don't know what the scheduling is going to be in the future. Who knows maybe each North school gets to have a designated rival in the South. If you ask the Presidents of UNH and UD, you just might find that UNH and Delaware would become designated rivals. As much as UMass would want that game, I believe if left to the presidents that UNH would get the nod.

I agree, it will take time for this possible split to occur, if it ever happens. But here's the problem - both UNH and UMass value the UD/JMU home games. If everyone from th North stays in the CAA that just won't happen too often. Eventually something is going to give.


For UNH, I believe the CAA Attraction is playing at the highest level of FCS, playing schools that also provide positive recognition in the Mid-Atlantic where UNH recruiting relies, maintaining football ties with Hofstra and especially Northeastern, etc. As long as UNH keeps Delaware on its schedule in some rotation (without the CAA the only game with them would be a money game when they chose to schedule us) and gets a mix of CAA schools in the Mid-Atlantic and Virginia, then to me that's still a better option than any of the new Yankee proposals I've seen. Frankly, I think scheduling would be more difficult outside the CAA. And by scheduling, I mean one that would provide the strength to be a consistent at large candidate. And don't forget like the UMass poster said, one re-alignment option is for Delaware and Villanova to join the North. Even if it was Delaware and Towson, that would be a fine alternative for UNH. I've even heard discussion about having three divisions so who knows yet what the scheduling is going to be. I'm not assuming like you that the attraction is going to end quickly.

We can agree that scheduling is MOST IMPORTANT to UMass and UNH continuing a realtionship with the CAA. You may be right and this can be solved to make everyone happy, but the PLAYOFFS are the higest level of FCS.


As for UNH and not wanting change, I'm afraid there are always some old timers with that old Yankee Farmer attitude within the UNH family. It's just a trait of the state, but one that I see lessening with every decade. Unfortunately, at the time of the AE-CAA merger, UNH had some of its weakest leadership. Well, unless you're more interested in women's sports. If that event occurred today, I truly believe UNH would take a completely different role. Our current AD had just come on the job and he was too new to take a prominent role. He would have been a champion for football rather than the care less leadership that existed at the time. And I know from talking with a professor that there is a segment of Academia at UNH today that would much prefer UNH to be associated with Delaware, W&M and JMU in all sports.

But saying that UNH won't change or take initiative because they won't jump on any of these New Yankee proposals is a crock. They just don't provide UNH enough reasons to change or lead toward something new. If these were such great proposals, why didn't UMass force Linda Bruno and the A-10 to come up with a solution while they still had the AQ? I know I heard discussion about bringing Fordham and Duquesne (all sports A-10 members) on board, but that never happened. Why isn't UMass coming to UNH and saying hey we've got to take the lead and form a new football league?

You have more inside info than I do, so I would defer to you on this point. I would just suggest there may be quite a few of "old-timers" left within the UNH administartion/boosters/trustees. At least that was the impression I got from another AE athletic director.

I fully agree that UNH/UMass need a reason and a better alternative to leave the CAA. But like the AQ issue, these things evolve over time and nothing stays the same forever.

[Fordham]

But is money the limiting factor, or AI?

If money were the limiting factor, how come Fordham has managed to dole out 58 equivalencies? The number of equivalencies - and the fact that it had to be at that point for quite some time, since the average has to be 56.5 to schedule money games and have them "count" - seems to paint a very different picture. It sure looks like Fordham hasn't had a problem giving equivalencies for the past four years.

That's what's so strange - to claim that they're having so much trouble attracting students with their aid package, and then say that they're NOT having a problem giving out aid since they're averaging 58 equivalencies.

That, coupled with the quid-pro-quo AI talk...

It's obviously NOT money. AI is a factor but as danefan has been trying to point out, it's getting away from need-based aid completely that's the 'bang for the buck'. AI provides additional squeeze and also motivated the administration due to what I believe was a broken promise but this is much, much about getting to escape the restrictions of need-based aid only than it is about AI.

If your "it's all about the AI" assertion is true, we wouldn't stay in the PL even if they implemented scholarships. But that's not the case. If the PL says ok or that every institution can make the decision for themselves, we'll stay. Again, if AI was the prime motivator that would never be the case.

[aceinthehole]

But if most of the rest of the CAA North leaves, UMass gets its annual games with Delaware and Nova back because they'll be moved to the North, and we could pick and choose which of the old Yankee to play non-conference. What do we gain by leaving?

The core group (UMass, UNH, Maine, URI) would have to split off as a group. I'd never suggested that UNH would leave without UMass or vice versa.


The 14 team alignment calls for only one road trip to the CAA South per year. Who is going to replace that one and only inconvenient game? We already have Albany and Stony Brook on the schedule. Is it Central Connecticut? That's the big carrot, we get a road game at CCSU instead of playing in the Georgia Dome? Why would we do that?

Of course CCSU isn't the carrot. But what happens when you only see Delaware or JMU once every 4 years? Is that worth the plane flight to Georgia or games at ODU?


Yes, we're not happy with the trend in the CAA that sees us playing fewer games against some important traditional rivals, but all leaving does is assure that we never play them. And instead we'd be playing all the teams we already play plus elevating the programs at local competitors like Albany, CCSU and SB? How is that in our best interests? A single plane trip doesn't cost THAT much, and half the time it's against a desirable opponent. You need to give UMass more reasons to leave than swapping @GSU for @CCSU.

That's what the current CAA football conference is - a scheduling agreement between traditional rivals. If they can't offer UMass a very benificial schedule, then what do you get from this affiliate status?

I'm not suggesting swaping Albany, SBU, and CCSU with the non-tradional rivals from the CAA South is the ONLY reason to do this. What I have been suggesting is that over time, as full-time CAA members add football (is GMU far away?) there is going to be some soul searching for Northern affiliates.

I'd also suggest you get more detailed numbers on travel and other costs, as I think they are adding up faster than most people think. And UMass will be in a position to reduces cost somewhere in their athletic department. Fiscal realities will trump many concerns.

[danefan]

But is money the limiting factor, or AI?

If money were the limiting factor, how come Fordham has managed to dole out 58 equivalencies? The number of equivalencies - and the fact that it had to be at that point for quite some time, since the average has to be 56.5 to schedule money games and have them "count" - seems to paint a very different picture. It sure looks like Fordham hasn't had a problem giving equivalencies for the past four years.

That's what's so strange - to claim that they're having so much trouble attracting students with their aid package, and then say that they're NOT having a problem giving out aid since they're averaging 58 equivalencies.

That, coupled with the quid-pro-quo AI talk...

OK perhaps an example will help.

Recruit
Top offensive player on Long Island
Oldest of 3 kids.
Mom's a teacher.
Dad's a fireman.
93 high school average (out of 100 like most NY public schools grade)
SATs - today's equivalent to a 1200 (darn 3 part test now)
Parent's combined income - $130,000 (middle class Long Islander)

Assume he fits the AI standard (mainly because I don't feel like figuring out whether he does or not)

Scenario #1 (Current):
Coach Masella calls and says: "Bobby, we love your game; your grades are great; your SAT's are good. You are one of our top recruits. I'm going to send over a form for you to fill out based on your parents 2008 tax return. No big deal, just have them fill it out and send it back to me." Coach Massella gets the form back, does the formula and figures out that because of the parents' $130,000 annual income, Bobby qualifies for 80% need based grant. Coach Massella calls back and says "Bobby, you're still one of our top recruits, in fact you are our top offensive recruit. We want you to come here really bad. You'll fit in perfectly. You are god's gift to Fordham football. Here is your offer - your parents ONLY have to pay $10,000 a year for your to come to Fordham. We'll pick up the rest."

Coach Ford drives down from Albany and pops his head in to Bobby's house. Bobby, son, we love ya! Your mum and dad seem to be nice people. You can certainly play the game of football and your grades are great. You are our top recruit. I'd like to offer you a FULL SCHOLARSHIP. Bobby says "Coach Ford, don't I have to fill out the sheet so you can figure out how much my parent's make?" Coach Ford replies "We don't care about what your mum and dad make. We aren't recruiting them. We're recruiting you."

The kid and his parents agonize over the decision for weeks. Do we pay the $10,000 a year and send Bobby to Fordham? Or do we sacrifice slightly on the academic side and send Bobby to Albany for free?

The kid and his parents decide that the sacrifice on the academic side isn't great enough to pay an additional $10,000 a year, so they choose Albany.


Scenario 2 (Fordham with Scholarships):
Coach Masella calls and says: "Bobby, we love your game; your grades are great; your SAT's are good. You are one of our top recruits. Here is your offer - full scholarship!."

Coach Ford drives down from Albany and pops his head in to Bobby's house. Bobby, son, we love ya! Your mum and dad seem to be nice people. You can certainly play the game of football and your grades are great. You are our top recruit. I'd like to offer you a FULL SCHOLARSHIP."

7 out of 10 times, the Bobby is now picking Fordham. (unless he drives to Fordham Ave first...;) jk).

It has nothing to do with the AI. Nothing to do with whether some other kid will take Bobby's offer in scenario 1 after Bobby rejects it. Fordham will always be able to find recruits to fill their 57 equivalencies. Its the pool of recruits that is limited by the need based aid formula. That pool is much much much bigger when you offer non-financial based aid.

[MDFAN]

Bingo

[Fordham]

Bingo

what he said.

great explanation danefan. the only surprise about this whole thing is that I know LFN knows this, so it just makes me wonder why he's pressing the AI explanation so much. xconfusedx

[DFW HOYA]

Scenario 3: His grades are good enough to go to Georgetown and he passes up on both of them! xlolx

[JoltinJoe]

Scenario 3: His grades are good enough to go to Georgetown and he passes up on both of them! xlolx

Yup, plus he won't even have to work hard, and he'll be guaranteed an "A." xnodx

[danefan]

Yup, plus he won't even have to work hard, and he'll be guaranteed an "A." xnodx

It will be just like he's at an Ivy League schoolxnodxxnodxxlolxxlolx

[LBPop]

Scenario 3: His grades are good enough to go to Georgetown and he passes up on both of them! xlolx

Sure...what's $50K x 4? xrolleyesx

I have a question. The difference between schollie and need based is obvious--maybe more-so to me because that difference may have cost me some cash. I remember when Lembo went to Elon--one of his quotes directly addressed the fact that he didn't have to play the "need" game any longer. He could simply spend the money how he saw fit. But my question is about the Admissions people. There have been several comments about not having to deal with Admissions any longer. I do not understand that. Paying tuition/housing, etc. is one thing, but gettin' 'em in is another.

Having had four years of direct experience, I know that Georgetown has lost kids for both reasons. But isn't the question of getting the kid into the school the same whether he gets a scholarship or need based aid?

[LBPop]

Yup, plus he won't even have to work hard, and he'll be guaranteed an "A." xnodx

I hope you are kidding. One of the huge gripes at Georgetown is about grade inflation at the Ivys (and the lack of it on Hilltop). I have spoken to kids from the big three of the great eight and they freely admit that getting in is the tough part. After that, you are virtually assured of excellent grades (unless, of course, you were a mistake). ;)

[danefan]

Sure...what's $50K x 4? xrolleyesx

I have a question. The difference between schollie and need based is obvious--maybe more-so to me because that difference may have cost me some cash. I remember when Lembo went to Elon--one of his quotes directly addressed the fact that he didn't have to play the "need" game any longer. He could simply spend the money how he saw fit. But my question is about the Admissions people. There have been several comments about not having to deal with Admissions any longer. I do not understand that. Paying tuition/housing, etc. is one thing, but gettin' 'em in is another.

Having had four years of direct experience, I know that Georgetown has lost kids for both reasons. But isn't the question of getting the kid into the school the same whether he gets a scholarship or need based aid?

Yes, it is exaclty the same.

Coaches know what grades kids need to have to get in. They've already worked out whatever arrangement there may be to work out before they even set out to recruit. They won't waste their time recruiting a kid if he can't get in.

[Franks Tanks]

Sure...what's $50K x 4? xrolleyesx

I have a question. The difference between schollie and need based is obvious--maybe more-so to me because that difference may have cost me some cash. I remember when Lembo went to Elon--one of his quotes directly addressed the fact that he didn't have to play the "need" game any longer. He could simply spend the money how he saw fit. But my question is about the Admissions people. There have been several comments about not having to deal with Admissions any longer. I do not understand that. Paying tuition/housing, etc. is one thing, but gettin' 'em in is another.

Having had four years of direct experience, I know that Georgetown has lost kids for both reasons. But isn't the question of getting the kid into the school the same whether he gets a scholarship or need based aid?


The getting into school part will always be there, but now a kid has to get into school and have the proper need formula for it to make sense for him to attend. Individually each factor eliminates many kids, together it eliminates a tremendous amount. It the diminishing pool of recruits that PL coaches refer to, and taking away the need based component opens up the pool again. Getting in will always be a factor with PL schools whether a given school remains in the league or not.

[JoltinJoe]

I hope you are kidding. One of the huge gripes at Georgetown is about grade inflation at the Ivys (and the lack of it on Hilltop). I have spoken to kids from the big three of the great eight and they freely admit that getting in is the tough part. After that, you are virtually assured of excellent grades (unless, of course, you were a mistake). ;)

Not kidding, at least from what I've been told by some excellent sources.

A former professor of mine, a Jesuit, who went on to become president of two universities, told me a few years ago about a report authored by faculty members at Georgetown that documented tha 46% of all grades awarded were "A"s or "A-"s. The report criticized the grading at Georgetown for "showering" students with high marks for performing simply "good work."

He was upset by this information, because the hallmark of a Jesuit education has always been that you had to work hard in order to earn a good grade. Jesuits are noted for making their students work hard.

[OL FU]

Sure...what's $50K x 4? xrolleyesx

I have a question. The difference between schollie and need based is obvious--maybe more-so to me because that difference may have cost me some cash. I remember when Lembo went to Elon--one of his quotes directly addressed the fact that he didn't have to play the "need" game any longer. He could simply spend the money how he saw fit. But my question is about the Admissions people. There have been several comments about not having to deal with Admissions any longer. I do not understand that. Paying tuition/housing, etc. is one thing, but gettin' 'em in is another.

Having had four years of direct experience, I know that Georgetown has lost kids for both reasons. But isn't the question of getting the kid into the school the same whether he gets a scholarship or need based aid?


I don't understand the all the requirements of equivalencies but it seems the answer is that the redtape and strict adherence to certain academic requirements is less.

Example Furman, while not as highly rated as the PL. is a very highly rated academic university. But the school does allow those requirements to be reduced for a certain number of athletic scholarships. Now that doesn't mean that Furman goes crazy and let's anyone in. We have a 96% graduation rate in football, so the athletic department must still take seriously Furman's first priority which is to accept qualified students, educate them and graduate them. But the leeway to accept athletes that might not have met the typical academic requirements is available.

[danefan]

I don't understand the all the requirements of equivalencies but it seems the answer is that the redtape and strict adherence to certain academic requirements is less.

Example Furman, while not as highly rated as the PL. is a very highly rated academic university. But the school does allow those requirements to be reduced for a certain number of athletic scholarships. Now that doesn't mean that Furman goes crazy and let's anyone in. We have a 96% graduation rate in football, so the athletic department must still take seriously Furman's first priority which is to accept qualified students, educate them and graduate them. But the leeway to accept athletes that might not have met the typical academic requirements is available.

What are you are describing is the restrictions placed on PL schools by the AI, not by the equivalencies.

The AI will be in place and still restrict PL schools even if they begin to offer scholarships.

PL schools differ from full scholarship football in two ways:
1. the AI
2. need-based aid

Fordham is only asking for a change in #2. They already lost the battle on #1.

[Go...gate]

I am putting more weight behind that part of it only because in the same statement Masella said that Fordham is at 58 already and has been for some time (which is further corroborated by the fact that Fordham is scheduling money games). The fact that Fordham is at 58 already implies that Fordham is not having a problem attracting athletes to play for them or that the need-based part of the equation is an issue.

It's one thing to say we're at 45 equivalencies and we can't get enough athletes since we can't offer a good enough financial aid package. It's quite another to say that with 58 equivalencies, where you'd at a maximum be able to offer six more scholarship equivalents. The main benefit is not scholarships, but not dealing with the PL rules - one of which, the AI, was mentioned as part of a rumored quid-pro-quo with scholarships.

Anyway, both "no AI" and "no need to ask the admissions department" are two of the main "benefits" of leaving the PL. But "number of scholarships" to me look like a distant third - if indeed they're at issue at all. I get the impression that we both agree that it's not about the number of scholarships.

(BTW, I have zero problem with scheduling money games - matter of fact, I wish Lehigh could/would schedule them at least occasionally.)

If the PL goes to scholarships, I have a feeling it will get its share of money games. We will definitely get more with schools like Army, Navy, Air Force, Duke, Vanderbilt and such. Who do you think Penn State would rather play CCU or someone they have played in the past, such as Colgate? Rutgers is another good example. A lot of their old grads enjoyed the "Middle Three" games with Lafayette and Lehigh because Rutgers likes the association with academically prestigious schools such as LC and LU.

[Fordham]

What are you are describing is the restrictions placed on PL schools by the AI, not by the equivalencies.

The AI will be in place and still restrict PL schools even if they begin to offer scholarships.

PL schools differ from full scholarship football in two ways:
1. the AI
2. need-based aid

Fordham is only asking for a change in #2. They already lost the battle on #1.
That's true, but just to clarify - we were not asking for the AI to be removed. We were asking for it to remain the same and not go to a league-wide AI v. a school-by-school one.

[colorless raider]

Not kidding, at least from what I've been told by some excellent sources.

A former professor of mine, a Jesuit, who went on to become president of two universities, told me a few years ago about a report authored by faculty members at Georgetown that documented tha 46% of all grades awarded were "A"s or "A-"s. The report criticized the grading at Georgetown for "showering" students with high marks for performing simply "good work."

He was upset by this information, because the hallmark of a Jesuit education has always been that you had to work hard in order to earn a good grade. Jesuits are noted for making their students work hard.

The Ivies are smart. They grade easier so that their kids get into great grad schools.

[colorless raider]

I don't understand the all the requirements of equivalencies but it seems the answer is that the redtape and strict adherence to certain academic requirements is less.

Example Furman, while not as highly rated as the PL. is a very highly rated academic university. But the school does allow those requirements to be reduced for a certain number of athletic scholarships. Now that doesn't mean that Furman goes crazy and let's anyone in. We have a 96% graduation rate in football, so the athletic department must still take seriously Furman's first priority which is to accept qualified students, educate them and graduate them. But the leeway to accept athletes that might not have met the typical academic requirements is available.

Furman does it the right way. Want to join the Patriot League?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

We agree on what UMass fans desire. There is a reason they aren't I-A now and a reason why they may never be. Politics and finances trump "desires" and "prefered associations."

Absolutely! If there was a UMass Nation like there was an Evil Empire Nation and the Minutemen had the support of their legislature the way the UConVicts do, then UMass would be FBS. But short of that IMHO, they're going to try to be associated in football with other large FCS schools. They travel all over creation now in the A-10, I doubt it would bother them to travel to GA, NC or TN for football.


I agree, it will take time for this possible split to occur, if it ever happens. But here's the problem - both UNH and UMass value the UD/JMU home games. If everyone from th North stays in the CAA that just won't happen too often. Eventually something is going to give.

For UNH it is more than just the UD and JMU games. While there is no inherent rivalry with Villanova, that game is valued because of the location and the quality of opponent. A game outside Philly offers a great opportunity for the parents, family and friends of players from NJ and PA to attend. UNH playing that game also provides positive exposure to prospective HS players. MaineJeff, for example, doesn't think that is a factor at Maine, but I've talked to enough parents of players these past few years to know it is a HUGE factor for UNH. Right now I'm thinking about three Dads I met this season at URI, at NU and at games at UNH. The game at Villanova had Dad along with multiple others attending the game. Towson being a public insitution and a former AE all sports member makes more sense rivalry wise and also provides many of the same advantages as Villanova. I'm expecting to see the same large turnout when I visit Towson this October. The same phenomenon even happens at the farthest CAA locales, Williamsburg and Richmond because they are closer to most of the PA and NJ families than Durham.

As long as the CAA scheduling provides a couple games a year in PA, DE, MD and VA, there is value to UNH and probably won't lead to disenchantment. It's not like there are a lot of schools out there to fill that void. Some provide the geographic part of the equation, but not many fit the quality of opponent part.



We can agree that scheduling is MOST IMPORTANT to UMass and UNH continuing a realtionship with the CAA. You may be right and this can be solved to make everyone happy, but the PLAYOFFS are the higest level of FCS.

Agreed on the playoffs, but to me what's also important is the ability to truly compete for the national championship. I know there are other options that would probably give UNH a more consistent opportunity to earn a playoff bid. But I haven't seen any that also provide UNH today's chance to compete for the whole enchilada. I can live with fewer bids and more competitive runs when a bid is achieved rather than a bunch of one and dones.

And as a fan who travels a fairly significant distance for home games and attends many road games as well, I want the high level schedule we have today. To me I see a great ROI for the travel. And I admit to being spoiled, I really do enjoy the FBS games and being truly competitive in them. I've yet to shell out big bucks for one of our money games in basketball. I've flown to Chicago to watch Northwestern and plan to do the same this Fall to see Ball State. I've flown once and driven once to see us in the playoffs at Northern Iowa. I'm not doing that if I think we're getting spanked in the first round.

Being in the CAA this decade has resulted in my school having gridiron experiences I never even dreamed of. As a result, I'm pretty freaking resistant to change right now. I think this is the true factor for resistance to change at UNH.


You have more inside info than I do, so I would defer to you on this point. I would just suggest there may be quite a few of "old-timers" left within the UNH administartion/boosters/trustees. At least that was the impression I got from another AE athletic director.

I fully agree that UNH/UMass need a reason and a better alternative to leave the CAA. But like the AQ issue, these things evolve over time and nothing stays the same forever.

I'm sure there still are plenty of them still kicking around, but at the same time many boosters have been pissed off and driven away by that poor administration in the late 90's and turn of the century. It really is a complex scenario at UNH. The state hardly provides any support (13-14% of the operating expenses) so the school has become quasi-private with near 50% out of state enrollment to balance the budget. That alone has made UNH very different than Maine and UMass and probably URI too (definitely different than CCSU!) and more like Delaware. And the way the Administration butchered the cutting of the baseball, men's lacrosse and wrestling programs created a significant number of alumni who have virtually written off their alma mater. Not sure how many of them would care enough any longer to be a trustee.

In the old days, there is no doubt that the athletic administration was all home grown and definitely had a "we've never done it that way so why should we now" mentality. There are probably a carry over or two from those days, but most today have come to UNH from outside. Our current President spent 24 years at Delaware and IIRC is not a native New Englander. Our AD had prior experience at Colorado College and Colgate (off the top of my head) and isn't a native New Englander either.

Believe me I've seen so many changes over the decades I've followed UNH that I know change is a constant and will happen. When I went to school, we played a Yankee Conference slate and virtually never traveled outside New England. We played current D-II and D-III schools rather than travel. Over these years, most of the time UNH took a laissez-faire attitude and things happened around them. I read enough from our AD and President today to feel that UNH will do its best to be involved in the charting of its history. They realize they have a good thing going in football today and aren't going to let that be negatively impacted if at all possible.

[GannonFan]

Furman does it the right way. Want to join the Patriot League?


Be careful - they could play one whole season of just home games and then quit the Patriot the next year. :p

[TheValleyRaider]

[/B]

If the PL goes to scholarships, I have a feeling it will get its share of money games. We will definitely get more with schools like Army, Navy, Air Force, Duke, Vanderbilt and such. Who do you think Penn State would rather play CCU or someone they have played in the past, such as Colgate? Rutgers is another good example. A lot of their old grads enjoyed the "Middle Three" games with Lafayette and Lehigh because Rutgers likes the association with academically prestigious schools such as LC and LU.

Colgate apparently has a trip scheduled to Air Force for 2013

[R3TRO]

Be careful - they could play one whole season of just home games and then quit the Patriot the next year. :p

xoutofrepx

LOL.. That whole thing has blown over for me but I still get a good laugh with that punch line.

[mainejeff]

A game outside Philly offers a great opportunity for the parents, family and friends of players from NJ and PA to attend. UNH playing that game also provides positive exposure to prospective HS players. MaineJeff, for example, doesn't think that is a factor at Maine, but I've talked to enough parents of players these past few years to know it is a HUGE factor for UNH.

I don't think that I've ever singled out Villanova, but I have stated in the past that the playing the Virginia schools do not affect Maine's recruiting one way or the other......maybe it's different for UNH (although looking at your recent recruiting class maybe UNH should look for a conference located in PA ;) ).

If there were a new football conference formed that included Albany and Stony Brook........I'm not going to be too concerned with not having away games near the fertile recruiting grounds of SE NY and the State of NJ. I'd LOVE to have Delaware in any conference that involves football.........the rest of the CAA South I could care less about. I know that you feel differently.......and maybe that is where UNH sees its future.......in the Baltimore to Atlanta corridor.

[OL FU]

What are you are describing is the restrictions placed on PL schools by the AI, not by the equivalencies.

The AI will be in place and still restrict PL schools even if they begin to offer scholarships.

PL schools differ from full scholarship football in two ways:
1. the AI
2. need-based aid

Fordham is only asking for a change in #2. They already lost the battle on #1.

So the academic restrictions are the same.

On the other hand I was replying to the comment Lembo made following his departure to Elonxthumbsupx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I don't think that I've ever singled out Villanova, but I have stated in the past that the playing the Virginia schools do not affect Maine's recruiting one way or the other......maybe it's different for UNH (although looking at your recent recruiting class maybe UNH should look for a conference located in PA ;) ).

If there were a new football conference formed that included Albany and Stony Brook........I'm not going to be too concerned with not having away games near the fertile recruiting grounds of SE NY and the State of NJ. I'd LOVE to have Delaware in any conference that involves football.........the rest of the CAA South I could care less about. I know that you feel differently.......and maybe that is where UNH sees its future.......in the Baltimore to Atlanta corridor.

Sorry, didn't mean to make that direct a correlation with Villanova and your ideas and opinions. It was just the game on UNH's schedule this year I could draw upon to make my point that having multiple quality games in the Mid-Atlantic is a recruiting plus for UNH. And yes, there is positive payback for games in VA too. Yeah, we did go heavy on the Keystone State this year. And in 2008 the most represented state on the UNH football roster was NJ! Right now, UNH is on a cycle of having two then one game in that geographic area every two years (Richmond and JMU, Delaware, Towson and W&M, Villanova). I'd like to see that type of rotation continue. Just Stony Brook and Albany can't replace that for UNH.

Ummm, if UNH was looking toward the Atlanta end of that corridor, I think they'd be an all sports member of the CAA today. They would have taken the invitation along with Northeastern a couple of years ago.

I don't have the problem with Towson that you do. Public university, has women's gymnastics like UNH does, good travel partner with Delaware, non-stop flight on Southwest minimizes the travel expense, Andy is a god guy, etc. Shoot Jeff, you should be glad to have a league mate that plays baseball right about now. And with all the nonsense going on, you wouldn't trade Bing straight up for Towson right now? xconfusedx

Agreed on Albany and Stony Brook, but I would like at least a couple other schools south of there in UNH's all sports and/or football leagues. Obviously, Delaware and Towson for starters. Unfortunately, the only FCS schools in NJ "available" don't really seem like good matches for AE. The only other PA FCS schools are out in Western PA which is more expensive travel wise than Philly or Baltimore. That's why I don't object to Virginia schools. Besides they are quality schools and have more in common with UNH anyway (don't want to make assumptions for Maine) than Bryant, CCSU, Monmouth, Wagner, Duquesne, etc.

I'm going to the AE Basketball Tournament in Albany tomorrow morning which will no doubt please many of you since I won't have the time to make my long winded posts on this subject!! ;) :p :p :p

[danefan]

So the academic restrictions are the same.

On the other hand I was replying to the comment Lembo made following his departure to Elonxthumbsupx

Right, academic restrictions would be the same.

And I'm sure Lembo was really happy to not have to deal with the AI restrictions at Lehigh anymore. Makes recruiting a whole lot easier.

[bison137]

Every school in the league now has scholarships in multiple sports



Unfortunately not Bucknell. The only PL sport where Bucknell gives them is basketball.

[bison137]

Equivalencies offered by the PL count the same in the Title IX equation as regular scholarships. There will only be a need for additional women's scollys if a school increases it's numbers of scollies over its current amount.

Trust me if schools could avoid Title IX issues by going the PL route then every football player in the FCS would be getting a needs based grant in aid.


1. I think there may be a difference. It is my understanding that if you offer only need-based aid that you are compliant with Title IX as long as you have identical policies in place for men and women. If it turns out that a lot more football players qualify for aid than do women soccer players, it is not a big issue.

However, when it comes to athletic scholarships, a school needs to dole them out fairly equally since there is no longer any need component.


2. If every school in the FCS went the need-based route, they wouldn't be allowed to give money to many football players and very few would qualify for a full ride.

[mainejeff]

I don't have the problem with Towson that you do. Public university, has women's gymnastics like UNH does, good travel partner with Delaware, non-stop flight on Southwest minimizes the travel expense, Andy is a god guy, etc. Shoot Jeff, you should be glad to have a league mate that plays baseball right about now. And with all the nonsense going on, you wouldn't trade Bing straight up for Towson right now? xconfusedx

Agreed on Albany and Stony Brook, but I would like at least a couple other schools south of there in UNH's all sports and/or football leagues. Obviously, Delaware and Towson for starters. Unfortunately, the only FCS schools in NJ "available" don't really seem like good matches for AE. The only other PA FCS schools are out in Western PA which is more expensive travel wise than Philly or Baltimore. That's why I don't object to Virginia schools. Besides they are quality schools and have more in common with UNH anyway (don't want to make assumptions for Maine) than Bryant, CCSU, Monmouth, Wagner, Duquesne, etc.

I don't have a problem with Towson.......I just don't give a rats *ss about them. They definitely would be a great travel partner with Delaware in an all-sports league not named the CAA and have a broad based athletic program.......just don't really have any "connection" of affinity for their program. xthumbsupx As far as baseball goes........America East wants to kill the sport anyway (as most AE schools have now done xnonono2x ) so Maine will just sponsor the sport as long as they can and then give it the ax when the time comes just like UNH, BU, and Vermont have done. So much for our "national pastime" xrolleyesx......maybe it's the socialist leaning tendencies of New Englanders in play.

[aceinthehole]

I don't have a problem with Towson.......I just don't give a rats *ss about them. They definitely would be a great travel partner with Delaware in an all-sports league not named the CAA and have a broad based athletic program.......just don't really have any "connection" of affinity for their program. xthumbsupx As far as baseball goes........America East wants to kill the sport anyway (as most AE schools have now done xnonono2x ) so Maine will just sponsor the sport as long as they can and then give it the ax when the time comes just like UNH, BU, and Vermont have done. So much for our "national pastime" xrolleyesx......maybe it's the socialist leaning tendencies of New Englanders in play.

I know a mid-sized New England public university that has very good football, men's and women's soccer, hoops, and baseball teams. They fit the AE profile, except for M Lax and Hockey.

[blukeys]

1. I think there may be a difference. It is my understanding that if you offer only need-based aid that you are compliant with Title IX as long as you have identical policies in place for men and women. If it turns out that a lot more football players qualify for aid than do women soccer players, it is not a big issue.

However, when it comes to athletic scholarships, a school needs to dole them out fairly equally since there is no longer any need component.


2. If every school in the FCS went the need-based route, they wouldn't be allowed to give money to many football players and very few would qualify for a full ride.


I disagree with point 2. The very successful needs based schools can ALWAYS find a way to get the right athlete assistance. The counselors for financial aid at Successful needs based schools are great coaches of filling out financial aid forms and I saw this first hand at UD when it used the needs based approach until the mid 80's.

By the way your school is giving the equivalent of 50+ free rides today. How did you find that many football players who could qualify when you say "very few would qualify for a free ride"

The fact is that high tuition private schools such as in the PL have lenient financial aid packages for just about anyone. I know that my progeny would certainly qualify for aid without being an athlete (my son was) .

There is no difference. according to the U. S Department of Education regarding the assistance to athletes whether it is need based or a scolly. Government beaureacrats do not make any distinction.

Title IX is complicated enough and involves the actual enrollment in each school. The Citadel with it's small female contingent has to fund less than a school with a 60% female enrollment. So in this sense every school's decision is contingent on their own unique situation.

That being said Title IX is not an issue. The Richmond administration discovered this 2 years ago. Delaware went from a needs based system to scollys years ago with no additional Title IX requirements.

[DFW HOYA]

Title IX is all about equal access--if there is disparity in the opportunities available to male scholarship athletes that women don't get in other sports with need-based aid, that opens the door to trouble.

[blukeys]

I don't have a problem with Towson.......I just don't give a rats *ss about them. They definitely would be a great travel partner with Delaware in an all-sports league not named the CAA and have a broad based athletic program.......just don't really have any "connection" of affinity for their program. xthumbsupx As far as baseball goes........America East wants to kill the sport anyway (as most AE schools have now done xnonono2x ) so Maine will just sponsor the sport as long as they can and then give it the ax when the time comes just like UNH, BU, and Vermont have done. So much for our "national pastime" xrolleyesx......maybe it's the socialist leaning tendencies of New Englanders in play.

Jeff, You have raised the finance and travel issues regarding Maine in the Caa and I thought your points were valid. Of course Maine will always have some travel issues in football until some Canadian schools start to play competitive College football.

What I don't get is your antipathy to the CAA. The America East Conference was handed a great opportunity 8 years ago that they promptly fumbled and turned their nose up to . The CAA which was not primarily a football conference and was quite frankly close to folding up shop took the ball and ran with it and have done quite well for FCS football.

The fact that the America East conference is now turning theit nose up for baseball says more about the incompetence of this administration than anything else.

Baseball is historically a Northeast originated sport. The fact that the sport is dying at New England schools is a sad commentary on an inept conference administration that is more interested in pleasing the basketball schools such as Vermont and Binghamton.

[carney2]

Who do you think Penn State would rather play CCU or someone they have played in the past, such as Colgate?

Actually, the CCU AD is an ex Penn State footballer and there was a relationship there that got the game scheduled.

[bison137]

I disagree with point 2. The very successful needs based schools can ALWAYS find a way to get the right athlete assistance. The counselors for financial aid at Successful needs based schools are great coaches of filling out financial aid forms and I saw this first hand at UD when it used the needs based approach until the mid 80's.

By the way your school is giving the equivalent of 50+ free rides today. How did you find that many football players who could qualify when you say "very few would qualify for a free ride"

The fact is that high tuition private schools such as in the PL have lenient financial aid packages for just about anyone. I know that my progeny would certainly qualify for aid without being an athlete (my son was) .

There is no difference. according to the U. S Department of Education regarding the assistance to athletes whether it is need based or a scolly. Government beaureacrats do not make any distinction.

Title IX is complicated enough and involves the actual enrollment in each school. The Citadel with it's small female contingent has to fund less than a school with a 60% female enrollment. So in this sense every school's decision is contingent on their own unique situation.

That being said Title IX is not an issue. The Richmond administration discovered this 2 years ago. Delaware went from a needs based system to scollys years ago with no additional Title IX requirements.



1. You are wrong - at least when it comes to PL schools. There have been hundreds of football players at Bucknell and other PL schools - ones who were really wanted - who could only be offered a fraction of a full ride. Many of them ended up in other leagues. The PL monitors this very closely and schools must share data, so there is very little cheating. I know that years ago there were many stories about Delaware cheating on the need-based aid, but that does not mean cheating is universal.

2. Quote: "By the way your school is giving the equivalent of 50+ free rides today. How did you find that many football players who could qualify when you say "very few would qualify for a free ride" " . . . . . . . There is no real logic in this statement, but I'll address it anyway. First of all, I see that for some reason you chose to change my original quote - even though you put the changed version in quotes. What I said was "very few would qualify for a full ride." Many more qualify for some percentage of a full ride - which helps explain how Bucknell gives 50 or so equivalencies, i.e. by giving out partials.

Also, even if only 5-10% of football players qualify for a full ride, that does not mean that the handful of schools that are need-based can't find enough players. There are an estimated 250,000 H.S. seniors who play football. If only 10% qualify for a full ride, that would leave 25,000 players. The need-based programs would not get the top players from this pool but they certainly could find enough guys.

3. If you are making a solid middle class income, your son or daughter would not qualify for anything close to a full ride at any PL school - unless you have several kids in school simultaneously. Having had two kids attend PL schools - and they applied to others they did not attend - I know the aid packages very well. I also know I don't consider myself to be rich and yet my kids didn't qualify for even a dime of aid using FAFSA.

4. Every situation is different when it comes to Title IX. Some schools definitely have an issue if they switch to scholarships.

[Jackman]

Baseball is historically a Northeast originated sport. The fact that the sport is dying at New England schools is a sad commentary on an inept conference administration that is more interested in pleasing the basketball schools such as Vermont and Binghamton.
Not saying that the AE isn't inept, but college baseball is dying in New England because the NCAA pushed the start of baseball season into February and now we all spend the entire first half of the season and two-thirds of the season overall on the road. You don't start playing baseball before the Red Sox have even reported for spring training, any idiot should know that.

[blukeys]

1. You are wrong - at least when it comes to PL schools. There have been hundreds of football players at Bucknell and other PL schools - ones who were really wanted - who could only be offered a fraction of a full ride. Many of them ended up in other leagues. The PL monitors this very closely and schools must share data, so there is very little cheating. I know that years ago there were many stories about Delaware cheating on the need-based aid, but that does not mean cheating is universal.

2. Quote: "By the way your school is giving the equivalent of 50+ free rides today. How did you find that many football players who could qualify when you say "very few would qualify for a free ride" " . . . . . . . There is no real logic in this statement, but I'll address it anyway. First of all, I see that for some reason you chose to change my original quote - even though you put the changed version in quotes. What I said was "very few would qualify for a full ride." Many more qualify for some percentage of a full ride - which helps explain how Bucknell gives 50 or so equivalencies, i.e. by giving out partials.

Also, even if only 5-10% of football players qualify for a full ride, that does not mean that the handful of schools that are need-based can't find enough players. There are an estimated 250,000 H.S. seniors who play football. If only 10% qualify for a full ride, that would leave 25,000 players. The need-based programs would not get the top players from this pool but they certainly could find enough guys.

3. If you are making a solid middle class income, your son or daughter would not qualify for anything close to a full ride at any PL school - unless you have several kids in school simultaneously. Having had two kids attend PL schools - and they applied to others they did not attend - I know the aid packages very well. I also know I don't consider myself to be rich and yet my kids didn't qualify for even a dime of aid using FAFSA.

4. Every situation is different when it comes to Title IX. Some schools definitely have an issue if they switch to scholarships.

Regarding

1 I always hear this all the time and yet I never actually get to hear it from the horse's mouth. I know folks who got "full rides" from Lehigh. His family owned a Real estate agency.

2. I have met many who have qualified for full rides from PL schools over the years. That being said all scolly schools also give partial scholarships

3. Thanks for admitting that you don't know the ins and outs of the needs based grants schemes for athletes. I went to school with several players getting full rides one of whom had parents who owned a golf course. THEY gave me contacts with financial aid officers who got me dollars an average student would have never seen.

4. Name ONE school in the PL that will have SIGNIFICANT Title IX issues should they switch to scholarships. The U.S. Department of Education considers Needs based athletic assistance and scollys as being the same.

It is sad that you have bought the PL propoganda that there is a signifigant difference between your current football (not other sports) funding and scollys.

In truth the only difference is how much hypocrisy you are willing to buy.

[blukeys]

Not saying that the AE isn't inept, but college baseball is dying in New England because the NCAA pushed the start of baseball season into February and now we all spend the entire first half of the season and two-thirds of the season overall on the road. You don't start playing baseball before the Red Sox have even reported for spring training, any idiot should know that.

Jackman,

As one who has watched the Red Sox after an early April snow storm, I think your point is well taken. I have to say that February is also not a good month for Baseball in the Mid-Atlantic and Delaware spends most of its spring in the south as well.

That being said baseball is a non revenue sport for colleges and this is an example of real dumbness on the part of Northern Schools.

Why should College schedules end before August???

Minor League baseball goes to the end of August and people go to the games.

I can see UNH baseball fans wanting to see their team play in July and not in March or April when they are freezing their rear off. For the record most New England Minor teams do Ok financially for just this reason.

I don't want to hijack this thread to baseball.

If so we should go to the other sports board.

My point is that the AE administation continually proves that they are the most inept conference administation of all time. They blew a great opportunity to sponsor football that the CAA eventually picked up on.

I don't understand the confidence some of my Northern Brethern have in this group of incompetents to develop and promote a quality football product when past experience demonstrates that they could not empty p@ss from a boot with the instructions on the heel.

[colorless raider]

I disagree with point 2. The very successful needs based schools can ALWAYS find a way to get the right athlete assistance. The counselors for financial aid at Successful needs based schools are great coaches of filling out financial aid forms and I saw this first hand at UD when it used the needs based approach until the mid 80's.

By the way your school is giving the equivalent of 50+ free rides today. How did you find that many football players who could qualify when you say "very few would qualify for a free ride"

The fact is that high tuition private schools such as in the PL have lenient financial aid packages for just about anyone. I know that my progeny would certainly qualify for aid without being an athlete (my son was) .

There is no difference. according to the U. S Department of Education regarding the assistance to athletes whether it is need based or a scolly. Government beaureacrats do not make any distinction.

Title IX is complicated enough and involves the actual enrollment in each school. The Citadel with it's small female contingent has to fund less than a school with a 60% female enrollment. So in this sense every school's decision is contingent on their own unique situation.

That being said Title IX is not an issue. The Richmond administration discovered this 2 years ago. Delaware went from a needs based system to scollys years ago with no additional Title IX requirements.

Coaches filling out financial aid forms....you are clueless.xnonox

[blukeys]

Coaches filling out financial aid forms....you are clueless.xnonox

And you need a course in reading comnprehension. This is what I actually said,

"The counselors for financial aid at Successful needs based schools are great coaches of filling out financial aid forms and I saw this first hand at UD when it used the needs based approach until the mid 80's."


In short I said the financial aid coounselors are great coaches at filling out the appropriate forms for needs based schools and thier athletes.

I NEVER ONCE DID I SAY THAT ATHLETIC COACHES FILLED OUT FINANCIAL FORMS!!!


Only a lame brain with the Reading Comprehension of a fourth grader could assume such.

I would never post such an inane statement.

Colgate needs to be informed that someone who has no reading comprehension ability is pretending to be a Colgate GRAD.

[Go...gate]

No offense, blukeys, but the referenced sentence did seem a little unclear to me as well (maybe it is just late and I'm just tired). Your point about financial aid is well taken, though.

[Franks Tanks]

1. You are wrong - at least when it comes to PL schools. There have been hundreds of football players at Bucknell and other PL schools - ones who were really wanted - who could only be offered a fraction of a full ride. Many of them ended up in other leagues. The PL monitors this very closely and schools must share data, so there is very little cheating. I know that years ago there were many stories about Delaware cheating on the need-based aid, but that does not mean cheating is universal.

2. Quote: "By the way your school is giving the equivalent of 50+ free rides today. How did you find that many football players who could qualify when you say "very few would qualify for a free ride" " . . . . . . . There is no real logic in this statement, but I'll address it anyway. First of all, I see that for some reason you chose to change my original quote - even though you put the changed version in quotes. What I said was "very few would qualify for a full ride." Many more qualify for some percentage of a full ride - which helps explain how Bucknell gives 50 or so equivalencies, i.e. by giving out partials.

Also, even if only 5-10% of football players qualify for a full ride, that does not mean that the handful of schools that are need-based can't find enough players. There are an estimated 250,000 H.S. seniors who play football. If only 10% qualify for a full ride, that would leave 25,000 players. The need-based programs would not get the top players from this pool but they certainly could find enough guys.

3. If you are making a solid middle class income, your son or daughter would not qualify for anything close to a full ride at any PL school - unless you have several kids in school simultaneously. Having had two kids attend PL schools - and they applied to others they did not attend - I know the aid packages very well. I also know I don't consider myself to be rich and yet my kids didn't qualify for even a dime of aid using FAFSA.

4. Every situation is different when it comes to Title IX. Some schools definitely have an issue if they switch to scholarships.


Bison-- I cant speak for Bucknell but when I was playing for Lafayette at least half of us payed nothing or very little to attend school and play football. Of course the rest of the guys had to pay something, usually 10-20k per year, but we had a tremendous amount of guys on what amounted to a full scholarship-- myself included. You can find plenty of full need guys that will recieve the full amount, but combined that with the AI and the pool just got smaller. We can expand our pool of recruits by either lowering the AI or adding scholly's. We shouldnt nor would I want to touch the AI, so scholly's is all we can do too expand our recruiting pool and get the best players for the money.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Jackman,

As one who has watched the Red Sox after an early April snow storm, I think your point is well taken. I have to say that February is also not a good month for Baseball in the Mid-Atlantic and Delaware spends most of its spring in the south as well.

That being said baseball is a non revenue sport for colleges and this is an example of real dumbness on the part of Northern Schools.

Why should College schedules end before August???

Minor League baseball goes to the end of August and people go to the games.

I can see UNH baseball fans wanting to see their team play in July and not in March or April when they are freezing their rear off. For the record most New England Minor teams do Ok financially for just this reason.

I don't want to hijack this thread to baseball.

If so we should go to the other sports board.

My point is that the AE administation continually proves that they are the most inept conference administation of all time. They blew a great opportunity to sponsor football that the CAA eventually picked up on.

I don't understand the confidence some of my Northern Brethern have in this group of incompetents to develop and promote a quality football product when past experience demonstrates that they could not empty p@ss from a boot with the instructions on the heel.

Actually, I think it's folks from outside the Northeast that think America East will sponsor football. Most of us with first hand knowledge of the league administration think it's near impossible. We have a commissioner who supposedly got the job because he promised the presidents he would start a football conference and bring Hockey East under the America East umbrella.

Let's see, Hockey East still exists. From everything I heard the ACC's University of Chestnut Hill and the Big East's Providence College had no problem with hockey played under the America East banner. Yet, somehow all sports member Boston University did! xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx Our commish and the league school's presidents weren't able to bring one member school on board.

Hockey was the easy one of his two tasks. xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Blu, I still rue that day eight years ago!!!

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

If Fordham leaves the PL, there won't be any "14-team conundrum" in the CAA. Could be an interesting few years upcoming.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The fact that the America East conference is now turning theit nose up for baseball says more about the incompetence of this administration than anything else.

Baseball is historically a Northeast originated sport. The fact that the sport is dying at New England schools is a sad commentary on an inept conference administration that is more interested in pleasing the basketball schools such as Vermont and Binghamton.

The AE administration may be incompetent, but college baseball, especially in smaller Division I schools, is dying everywhere. Sure, it's a "death of a thousand cuts" with rulings that favor southern schools and the big-money conferences, but kids are simply not choosing to play baseball as an organized sport - that's the root of the problem. I don't think any of those macro trends are the AE's fault.

[MplsBison]

The AE administration may be incompetent, but college baseball, especially in smaller Division I schools, is dying everywhere. Sure, it's a "death of a thousand cuts" with rulings that favor southern schools and the big-money conferences, but kids are simply not choosing to play baseball as an organized sport - that's the root of the problem. I don't think any of those macro trends are the AE's fault.

It would help northern schools if the season went from May - Aug.

[danefan]

The AE administration may be incompetent, but college baseball, especially in smaller Division I schools, is dying everywhere. Sure, it's a "death of a thousand cuts" with rulings that favor southern schools and the big-money conferences, but kids are simply not choosing to play baseball as an organized sport - that's the root of the problem. I don't think any of those macro trends are the AE's fault.

The decline in northeast baseball can be linked to one thing - the rise in lacrosse.

I love baseball and grew up playing it (4 years of varsity high school baseball), but I have to think that if I were growing up now I'd much rather play lacrosse. Its much more exciting.

[89Hen]

Title IX is all about equal access
Not IMO. It's about inequal access. More boys play sports. Why should girls have equal number of schollies?

I've talked to HS and college coaches who say they actually have a hard time filling all their slots with decent athletes (which is why 89Henette is going to be learning to play golf this summer). There are tons of good male athletes who can't sniff a schollie, but a female who can break 90 on the golf course has schools seeking them out. xnodx

[danefan]

Not IMO. It's about inequal access. More boys play sports. Why should girls have equal number of schollies?

I've talked to HS and college coaches who say they actually have a hard time filling all their slots with decent athletes (which is why 89Henette is going to be learning to play golf this summer). There are tons of good male athletes who can't sniff a schollie, but a female who can break 90 on the golf course has schools seeking them out. xnodx

Compare the numbers of girls that play sports now compared the number of girls in the pre-Title IX era.

The numbers will only continue to increase. Men have been playing intercollegiate athletics for over 100 years. Title IX was passed in 1972. Give it some time.

[Jackman]

Actually, I think it's folks from outside the Northeast that think America East will sponsor football. Most of us with first hand knowledge of the league administration think it's near impossible.
If nothing else, I would expect that UMass, if it agreed to join the breakaway conference, would insist that it fly the A10 flag, even if a greater number of members are from the AE. It is not in UMass's best interests to increase the prestige of a rival conference in its own backyard. It may be unfair, but we have leverage in that the CAA would probably be fine with us staying behind if we don't get our way. We'd just end up swapping games with UNH and Maine for games with Delaware and Villanova, and it's not even that much difference in travel (Del and Maine are the exact same distance from Amherst). The AE schools don't really have anything they can use to force UMass's hand, and they probably don't want to get in an arms race with a CAA-based UMass, Northeastern, Hofstra and maybe URI. UNH and Maine would be setting themselves up to be perceived as lower tier unless they came out strong and maintained that level over a long period. So I think UMass controls the entire breakaway conference scenario. And nothing I've seen gives me the impression that we're feeling rebellious, though I personally have divided feelings on the issue.

[89Hen]

Compare the numbers of girls that play sports now compared the number of girls in the pre-Title IX era.

The numbers will only continue to increase. Men have been playing intercollegiate athletics for over 100 years. Title IX was passed in 1972. Give it some time.
But that's not equal access. That's an attempt to change future conditions. xpeacex Kinda like the difference between a stimulus bill and a policy bill. xsmiley_wix

[mainejeff]

Jeff, You have raised the finance and travel issues regarding Maine in the Caa and I thought your points were valid. Of course Maine will always have some travel issues in football until some Canadian schools start to play competitive College football.

What I don't get is your antipathy to the CAA. The America East Conference was handed a great opportunity 8 years ago that they promptly fumbled and turned their nose up to . The CAA which was not primarily a football conference and was quite frankly close to folding up shop took the ball and ran with it and have done quite well for FCS football.

The fact that the America East conference is now turning theit nose up for baseball says more about the incompetence of this administration than anything else.

Baseball is historically a Northeast originated sport. The fact that the sport is dying at New England schools is a sad commentary on an inept conference administration that is more interested in pleasing the basketball schools such as Vermont and Binghamton.

That 15/16 team AE would have been a COMPLETE DISASTER. I'm betting that schools would have already been leaving! I don't like ANY of the current mid-major Northeast/Mid-Atlantic conferences because none of them make sense! Give me an all-sports conference that brings together public football playing schools (Maine, UNH, UMass, URI, Albany, Stony Brook, Delaware, Towson + Hofstra) and I'll get on board that conference bandwagon!

[mainejeff]

Not saying that the AE isn't inept, but college baseball is dying in New England because the NCAA pushed the start of baseball season into February and now we all spend the entire first half of the season and two-thirds of the season overall on the road. You don't start playing baseball before the Red Sox have even reported for spring training, any idiot should know that.

The NCAA has actually enacted legislation to start the season later (last weekend in February). The fact is that Northern schools juts don't want to invest the money into the sport.......they never did.

[mainejeff]

If nothing else, I would expect that UMass, if it agreed to join the breakaway conference, would insist that it fly the A10 flag, even if a greater number of members are from the AE. It is not in UMass's best interests to increase the prestige of a rival conference in its own backyard. It may be unfair, but we have leverage in that the CAA would probably be fine with us staying behind if we don't get our way. We'd just end up swapping games with UNH and Maine for games with Delaware and Villanova, and it's not even that much difference in travel (Del and Maine are the exact same distance from Amherst). The AE schools don't really have anything they can use to force UMass's hand, and they probably don't want to get in an arms race with a CAA-based UMass, Northeastern, Hofstra and maybe URI. UNH and Maine would be setting themselves up to be perceived as lower tier unless they came out strong and maintained that level over a long period. So I think UMass controls the entire breakaway conference scenario. And nothing I've seen gives me the impression that we're feeling rebellious, though I personally have divided feelings on the issue.

$$$ will rule the day. Count on it. xthumbsupx

[danefan]

That 15/16 team AE would have been a COMPLETE DISASTER. I'm betting that schools would have already been leaving! I don't like ANY of the current mid-major Northeast/Mid-Atlantic conferences because none of them make sense! Give me an all-sports conference that brings together public football playing schools (Maine, UNH, UMass, URI, Albany, Stony Brook, Delaware, Towson + Hofstra) and I'll get on board that conference bandwagon!

I like the conference, but Hofstra isn't public. xthumbsupx

[Franks Tanks]

The NCAA has actually enacted legislation to start the season later (last weekend in February). The fact is that Northern schools juts don't want to invest the money into the sport.......they never did.

Good point. Also northern school have a very hard time attracting baseball talent-- even those in their own backyard- as many of the top players who attend college go south. I used to work with a guy was was a very good baseball player. He was a high round draft choice but made the wise decision to attend college. The guy grew up in Pittsburgh, literally in the shadow of Pitt. He said he didnt even consider Pitt or other NE schools. He instead went to Florida State to play baseball, all the good NE players go South. In fact a guy I currently work with was in the same situation. He went to the College of Charleston and spurned Penn State and other large NE schools. The weather is brutal and kids dont want to play in those conditions.

[RichH2]

NE schools keep very few baseball players for the reasons stated by Franks . It is not $$ as baseball scholarships are very ltd, I think max is 9 or 10, with new limits just put on on counters due to transfers etc. it is not $$$ keeping kids out of NE schools,

[turbodean]

OMG, I've been traveling without Internet for over a week and I came back to:

1) Football Scholies at Fordham and
2) U2 kicking off their new Album live on Good Morning America on campus Fordham (over 1 hour of major publicity for the school)

As Bono would say, "It's a beautiful day!"

[poly51]

There is always a spot for Fordham in the Big West.

[Maroon&White]

The decline in northeast baseball can be linked to one thing - the rise in lacrosse.

I love baseball and grew up playing it (4 years of varsity high school baseball), but I have to think that if I were growing up now I'd much rather play lacrosse. Its much more exciting.

I find that funny. Lacrosse to me is the most boring sport to watch. I've yet to find a sport I dislike more. Maybe it's more exciting to play. Obviously some people like it. xlolx

Beyond Maine being really good years ago, I don't know anything about the history of baseball in the northeast. What I do know is both baseball and softball are simliar. Both are outdoor spring sports that start during the winter. Obviously it is very hard or impossible to practice outside in the Northeast before the season and even a month or so into the season. The recruiting bases for these sports are in the south and/or west, hard to convince those kids to come up here to play in the cold and wet weather. To add to that, how many Northeast schools offer the full allotment of scholarships for baseball? UMass offers something like 3. Pretty tough to compete at the national level with that going against you.

[mainejeff]

I like the conference, but Hofstra isn't public. xthumbsupx

Hence my + Hofstra. xthumbsupx

[mainejeff]

Good point. Also northern school have a very hard time attracting baseball talent-- even those in their own backyard- as many of the top players who attend college go south. I used to work with a guy was was a very good baseball player. He was a high round draft choice but made the wise decision to attend college. The guy grew up in Pittsburgh, literally in the shadow of Pitt. He said he didnt even consider Pitt or other NE schools. He instead went to Florida State to play baseball, all the good NE players go South. In fact a guy I currently work with was in the same situation. He went to the College of Charleston and spurned Penn State and other large NE schools. The weather is brutal and kids dont want to play in those conditions.

It doesn't help when you have 16 Division 1 baseball programs left in New England and they play in 8 different conferences!

Maine, Hartford - America East
UMass, URI - Atlantic 10
BC - ACC
UConn - Big East
Dartmouth, Harvard, Brown, Yale - Ivy
Holy Cross - Patriot
Bryant, Central Connecticut, Sacred Heart, Quinnipiac - NEC
Fairfield - MAAC

It's total MADNESS and totally antiquated for the times that we live in. There needs to be a certain amount of reorganization in the Northeast for non-revenue sports based on financialand geographic considerations. xthumbsupx

[mainejeff]

I find that funny. Lacrosse to me is the most boring sport to watch. I've yet to find a sport I dislike more. Maybe it's more exciting to play. Obviously some people like it. xlolx

Beyond Maine being really good years ago, I don't know anything about the history of baseball in the northeast. What I do know is both baseball and softball are simliar. Both are outdoor spring sports that start during the winter. Obviously it is very hard or impossible to practice outside in the Northeast before the season and even a month or so into the season. The recruiting bases for these sports are in the south and/or west, hard to convince those kids to come up here to play in the cold and wet weather. To add to that, how many Northeast schools offer the full allotment of scholarships for baseball? UMass offers something like 3. Pretty tough to compete at the national level with that going against you.

There was a proposal at one time to push the season forward enough to allow the Northeast programs to be more competitive. The proposal would have put the College World Series to on or around the 4th of July. That would have allowed the regular season to be played through the beginning of June which would have been much better for Northern programs.......housing costs and opposition from the Southern schools pretty much killed that idea. Honestly, the Southern power conferences should have a bit of concern......the more Northern programs are dropped, the less college baseball becomes relevant IMO. It may still attract the die hard fans in the South........but they will continue to get less media attention and therefore money flowing into their sport. xthumbsupx

[BearsCountry]

Looks like the A-10 is slowy getting back into the football game.

[PAT]

This must be just like finding Coach Wiz's initials on line 14 of your aid form, he didn't have to fill it out only initial it. Why waste time.

[Seawolf97]

That 15/16 team AE would have been a COMPLETE DISASTER. I'm betting that schools would have already been leaving! I don't like ANY of the current mid-major Northeast/Mid-Atlantic conferences because none of them make sense! Give me an all-sports conference that brings together public football playing schools (Maine, UNH, UMass, URI, Albany, Stony Brook, Delaware, Towson + Hofstra) and I'll get on board that conference bandwagon!

Tha could be a very competitive conference1 It gets my vote. Hofstra would be the token private program.

[Go...gate]

Hence my + Hofstra. xthumbsupx


Maybe it is time for the PL to approach Hofstra....

[blukeys]

Maybe it is time for the PL to approach Hofstra....

Approach them all you want. However, it is the PL that first has to put their house in order. The CAA is not the conference that has individual schools giving them ultimatums. The PL is.

I would be glad to accept an even up bet on Hofstra going to the PL within the next 5 years. Any takers???

[Uncle Buck]

I like the conference, but Hofstra isn't public. xthumbsupx

No, but that would be a conference i could live with. Not sure if it will ever come to be, but i could live with it.

[Uncle Buck]

Approach them all you want. However, it is the PL that first has to put their house in order. The CAA is not the conference that has individual schools giving them ultimatums. The PL is.

I would be glad to accept an even up bet on Hofstra going to the PL within the next 5 years. Any takers???

Not going to happen, unless the PL went scholarship. I for one, i'm still bitter about how they continued to snub us when we first moved up. Well, that and the Lafayette fans calling us dirtbags when we played there. xnodx

[danefan]

No, but that would be a conference i could live with. Not sure if it will ever come to be, but i could live with it.

Oh, believe me, so could I.

Albany, SBU, Hofstra and Fordham would be a great combination of NY schools.

[Seawolf97]

Oh, believe me, so could I.

Albany, SBU, Hofstra and Fordham would be a great combination of NY schools.

Couldnt agree more. But and always a But - how will the politics and financials of a new all sports conference evolve? I see all kinds of potential for a conference like this and probably a real need to form something like this. It would in the long run benefit all member schools with limited travel, natural rivals and a single conference for all sports. I could even envision it being one tier below the Big East or ACC in terms of quality programs while still being FCS in football. But will the AD's and schools themselves support such a move? Only can hope for now.

[Uncle Buck]

Definitely attractive in that games would be pretty much contained to the Northeast and the NY rivalries would be great. Not sure when or if it will happen, but with this economy you never know.

[mainejeff]

Here's an interesting look at men's basketball success in the last decade (2000-2009) for the 9 schools in my proposed all-sports league:

Maine: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
UNH: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
UMass: 0 NCAA appearances (* A-10 Tourney TBD)
URI: 0 NCAA appearances (*A-10 Tourney TBD)
Albany: 2 NCAA appearances
Stony Brook: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
Hofstra: 0 NCAA appearances
Delaware: 0 NCAA appearances
Towson: 0 NCAA appearances

So in 90 possible NCAA tourney appearance chances.........this group has had grand total of 2 appearances (Albany) with 2 still TBD (UMass and URI) this season. So not only does would this group benefit from having an all-sports league including football under one umbrella........but hoops (both men's and women's) would benefit as well IMO.

[danefan]

Here's an interesting look at men's basketball success in the last decade (2000-2009) for the 9 schools in my proposed all-sports league:

Maine: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
UNH: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
UMass: 0 NCAA appearances (* A-10 Tourney TBD)
URI: 0 NCAA appearances (*A-10 Tourney TBD)
Albany: 2 NCAA appearances
Stony Brook: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
Hofstra: 0 NCAA appearances
Delaware: 0 NCAA appearances
Towson: 0 NCAA appearances

So in 90 possible NCAA tourney appearance chances.........this group has had grand total of 2 appearances (Albany) with 2 still TBD (UMass and URI) this season. So not only does would this group benefit from having an all-sports league including football under one umbrella........but hoops (both men's and women's) would benefit as well IMO.

Forget basketball though MJ. I don't think there's a snowballs chance in hell that URI and UMass would associate themselves with the likes of the others in basketball.

[Jackman]

Ouch, MJ. We're in a bit of a rut, but we'll pull out of it eventually. You never want to move from a multi-bid conference to a one bid conference. It makes the regular season meaningless, everything would depend on a couple end of season tournament games.

[mainejeff]

Ouch, MJ. We're in a bit of a rut, but we'll pull out of it eventually. You never want to move from a multi-bid conference to a one bid conference. It makes the regular season meaningless, everything would depend on a couple end of season tournament games.

Huh? xeyebrowx

I'll take an NCAA tourney appearance or 2 every decade over those "meaningful" regular seasons with no shot at the tourney.

My main point is that the current basketball situations for all of these schools is not great.......and all (excluding Albany) have been stagnant for the past decade (or more) when it comes to NCAA tourney appearances.

[aceinthehole]

Here's an interesting look at men's basketball success in the last decade (2000-2009) for the 9 schools in my proposed all-sports league:

Maine: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
UNH: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
UMass: 0 NCAA appearances (* A-10 Tourney TBD)
URI: 0 NCAA appearances (*A-10 Tourney TBD)
Albany: 2 NCAA appearances
Stony Brook: 0 NCAA appearances (never been)
Hofstra: 0 NCAA appearances
Delaware: 0 NCAA appearances
Towson: 0 NCAA appearances

So in 90 possible NCAA tourney appearance chances.........this group has had grand total of 2 appearances (Albany) with 2 still TBD (UMass and URI) this season. So not only does would this group benefit from having an all-sports league including football under one umbrella........but hoops (both men's and women's) would benefit as well IMO.

You could add Central Connecticut and get our 3 NCAA appearances (2000, 2002, 2007). xnodx

Not to mention our multiple baseball, soccer, and golf NCAA appearances. :)