Colgate Prexy Rebecca Chopp suddenly resigns - wither FB scholarships?

[Go...gate]

This was just announced. She is leaving to be President of Swarthmore.

I wonder if her departure will slow or stop the FB scholarship momentum. She brought athletic scholarships in for all other sports at Colgate and I understood her to be a staunch advocate for FB scholarships.

[MplsBison]

Bring in someone who will push for FB scholarships.

[Go...gate]

Not that easy, MPLS - the last knucklehead we had in as President, the infamous "Buddy" Karelis (now a trustee at American University ), tried to make us into another Williams College, NESCAC - type institution.

[TheValleyRaider]

I just saw the email too

It'll be definitely interesting to see what direction the school goes in athletically now. Chopp's plans for expansion were popular with the BOT, I would guess, and I should think discussion revolving new construction (caveat for the economy nonwithstanding) will continue. I heard rumors of a new dorm (replacing Cutten) and then possibly a new hockey rink. If this were to hold, I would imagine we'd get a President more amenable to athletics, which could include continuing the push for scholarships....

All speculation at this point though, of course

[carney2]

Bring in someone who will push for FB scholarships.

Yeah, I'm sure that will be the number one priority of the search committee.

[Lehigh74]

Any idea why she would leave Colgate to take the same job at Swarthmore ?

[TheValleyRaider]

Higher ranked school (#3 from #16), smaller school, more in-line with her philosophy, better pay, probably a whole bunch of reasons xtwocentsx

[carney2]

Any idea why she would leave Colgate to take the same job at Swarthmore ?


Smaller school

Still top rate academics

No D-1 or alumni pressure on athletics

Great part of an urban area

Easier winters; a real spring

Take your pick.

[dgreco]

Higher ranked school (#3 from #16), smaller school, more in-line with her philosophy, better pay, probably a whole bunch of reasons xtwocentsx


Smaller school

Still top rate academics

No D-1 or alumni pressure on athletics

Great part of an urban area

Easier winters; a real spring

Take your pick.
Both beat me too it, but also Swarthmore has a lot of research coming out of their institution. I know a few of the psychologists there basically wrote every book in about four different forms of psychology and a lot of the professors there are world renowned. I do not know much about Colgate, so I do not know how much of a jump that is, but I know the credit Swarthmore has.

[Wildcat80]

A little help for a caa fan. How close is PL to football scholarships? I heard a few want it today...others not. Can anyone summarize the status of Patriot league &/or schools on this issue? thanks

[Pard94]

A little help for a caa fan. How close is PL to football scholarships? I heard a few want it today...others not. Can anyone summarize the status of Patriot league &/or schools on this issue? thanks

Oh man...brace yourself.

[RichH2]

Now Pard why would you say a thing like that. Jeez us PLers aren't that fixated on scholarships,scholarships, scholarships,scholarships, scholarsh...... OOPS!

LU,LC,FU support BU sometimes yes sometimes no, HC should support but theIR position far from clear GU NO. Check back in in 10minutes and the answer will be different. Realistically unless ,IMHO ,football becomes embarassingly bad OOC the presidents will do nothing and the current economy does not bode well for any change

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Smaller school

Still top rate academics

No D-1 or alumni pressure on athletics

Great part of an urban area

Easier winters; a real spring

Take your pick.

You forgot: Swarthmore buried football in 2000, so no annoying football to worry about. :(

Hard to say who the search committee will come up with, but it's very clear that athletics will NOT be the No. 1 qualification for the job.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A little help for a caa fan. How close is PL to football scholarships? I heard a few want it today...others not. Can anyone summarize the status of Patriot league &/or schools on this issue? thanks

Fans want. ADs more divided, but majority want. Presidents sipping coffee in Washington, DC, worrying about the economic crisis, globalization and hte internationalization of education. Nothing gets done without the presidents being in complete agreement. :(

[RichH2]

All valid minor concerns LFN, no doubt but not nearly as important as Football

[TheValleyRaider]

You forgot: Swarthmore buried football in 2000, so no annoying football to worry about. :(

I don't know about that

Chopp was one of the supporters of FB scholarships, so I can't believe the lack of a Football team drove her to Swarthmore (or at least, not like any of the other benefits the school has and could give her)

I wouldn't be surprised if the next Prez is similar in overall vision and style, though where athletics fits into that is obviously quite in the air

[colorless raider]

I just saw the email too

It'll be definitely interesting to see what direction the school goes in athletically now. Chopp's plans for expansion were popular with the BOT, I would guess, and I should think discussion revolving new construction (caveat for the economy nonwithstanding) will continue. I heard rumors of a new dorm (replacing Cutten) and then possibly a new hockey rink. If this were to hold, I would imagine we'd get a President more amenable to athletics, which could include continuing the push for scholarships....

All speculation at this point though, of course

The chances of a more friendly to athletics than Chopp is slim and nonxsmhxe I fear.

[Go...gate]

Colorless, I hope you are wrong but fear you are right.

[colorless raider]

Lobby with any and all.

[Go...gate]

I do NOT want to go back to 0-11.

You know, we always talk about possible conference scenarios; how 'bout a nightmare scenario - Colgate and Holy Cross in the G-D NESCAC? xeekx

[Go...gate]

Lobby with any and all.

Will do. A letter may be appropriate with the check they always seem to be asking for (and getting, when I can afford it) this time of the year....

[DFW HOYA]

Can anyone summarize the status of Patriot league &/or schools on this issue? thanks

No change on either for the forseeable future.

[Seawolf97]

It will probably take a year to find a new president once your search committee is formed. Stonybrooks President announced her retirement last year effective 6/30 2009. From what I understand there is a short list now of 3-5 candidates that will be submitted to the state in March.
I dont think there will be a major change in direction for athletics at either school.

[Go...gate]

It will probably take a year to find a new president once your search committee is formed. Stonybrooks President announced her retirement last year effective 6/30 2009. From what I understand there is a short list now of 3-5 candidates that will be submitted to the state in March.
I dont think there will be a major change in direction for athletics at either school.

I thought I read Chopp is out earlier than that (I may be mistaken), so we may have an interim President again...

[ngineer]

So we can't call 'gate the "Chopp Shop" anymore..:(;):D
I would think your BOT will want to bring someone in with a balanced view of academics and athletics that fits the PL paradigm.

[TheValleyRaider]

I thought I read Chopp is out earlier than that (I may be mistaken), so we may have an interim President again...

Chopp starts at Swarthmore on July 1, according to their website. I would guess she's sticking around Colgate until then, but I don't know

They said Lyle Roelofs, Provost and Dean of the Faculty, will be interim President. Given he came aboard after her, I'd wager he's similar. Not that he'll be doing much as President. Pretty much just keeping the seat warm

[Seawolf97]

Chopp starts at Swarthmore on July 1, according to their website. I would guess she's sticking around Colgate until then, but I don't know

They said Lyle Roelofs, Provost and Dean of the Faculty, will be interim President. Given he came aboard after her, I'd wager he's similar. Not that he'll be doing much as President. Pretty much just keeping the seat warm

Exactly! Expect him to maintain the status quo. Our finalists all have heavy math and science backgrounds and one I understand is presently a Dean of a major east coast Medical School. All seem to fit the StonyBrook profile and hopefully the State will act by June.

[TheValleyRaider]

Exactly! Expect him to maintain the status quo.

Well, I'm guessing he maintains the status quo because he's only interim. Not really a position from which you want to make major waves. Colgate will be holding steady, which likely means nothing will change athletically

The real question will revolve around who Chopp's replacement is. Hopefully when some candidates are announced, we'll get a better sense of what direction the school is looking to go in overall

[carney2]

I do NOT want to go back to 0-11.

You know, we always talk about possible conference scenarios; how 'bout a nightmare scenario - Colgate and Holy Cross in the G-D NESCAC? xeekx

I know you phrase this as a "nightmare scenario," and I guess even you don't buy into what you're saying, but, really:

In which universe would Holy Cross take their revered basketball program to D3?

Exactly how many 'gate alums could be counted on to throw money at the new chemistry building or new diversities center after the school has tossed its athletic programs into the D3 pile?

[colorless raider]

More importantly the PL has lost the leader in a move toward scholarships in football. We all be doomed to suffer the consequences.

[DFW HOYA]

I know you phrase this as a "nightmare scenario," and I guess even you don't buy into what you're saying, but, really:

In which universe would Holy Cross take their revered basketball program to D3?


They're not, of course, but if there was any PL school administration that would like to associate among liberal arts colleges, it's Holy Cross.

[Go...gate]

I know you phrase this as a "nightmare scenario," and I guess even you don't buy into what you're saying, but, really:

In which universe would Holy Cross take their revered basketball program to D3?

Exactly how many 'gate alums could be counted on to throw money at the new chemistry building or new diversities center after the school has tossed its athletic programs into the D3 pile?

Hey, I agree with you. If Colgate ever went DIII, I would not be throwing much more money, if any. Sounds like HC feels the same way, but sometimes Presidents can really take a school in a direction adverse to most of the school's stakeholders. Just ask Boston University, Richmond, and some others.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not at all sure that Ms. Chopp was the fierce advocate of scholarships that many of the Colgate folks here feel she was. She certainly tilted towards schollies for football, but was she a mover and a shaker towards that goal? -- I do not know for sure.

It is my belief that the momentum for football scholarships is still in place - mostly due to the realities on the ground, especially this year in the FCS playoffs. It's very, very slow momentum, for sure - but still momentum.

[carney2]

I'm not at all sure that Ms. Chopp was the fierce advocate of scholarships that many of the Colgate folks here feel she was. She certainly tilted towards schollies for football, but was she a mover and a shaker towards that goal? -- I do not know for sure.

It is my belief that the momentum for football scholarships is still in place - mostly due to the realities on the ground, especially this year in the FCS playoffs. It's very, very slow momentum, for sure - but still momentum.

There ya go. To think that President Chopp was a force for football scholarships certainly overstates the situation. We have no scholarships with her and we will most certainly have none in July when she is a resident of the Philadelphia suburbs. If there is a true movement or inevitability in this direction it will happen. (LFN says that there is momentum. Does anyone else see it.? I don't.) A single individual is not and will not be the deciding factor.

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm not at all sure that Ms. Chopp was the fierce advocate of scholarships that many of the Colgate folks here feel she was. She certainly tilted towards schollies for football, but was she a mover and a shaker towards that goal? -- I do not know for sure.

She was definitely a supporter, but was not going to be the one to make the first move. Unfortunate, really, because I think, given her relative seniority in the pro-scholarship faction, she was the ideal person to do it

Again, many things still up in the air

[LBPop]

Smaller school

Still top rate academics

No D-1 or alumni pressure on athletics

Great part of an urban area

Easier winters; a real spring

Take your pick.

C'mon Carney. There's only one reason--the cheesesteaks are much better. xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

C'mon Carney. There's only one reason--the cheesesteaks are much better. xrolleyesx


What if you want a cheesesteak and a burger on one bun?

[Go...gate]

C'mon Carney. There's only one reason--the cheesesteaks are much better. xrolleyesx

I don't remember cheesesteaks in my years in Hamilton, NY. Buffalo wings and pizza, well, that's another matter.

[carney2]

C'mon Carney. There's only one reason--the cheesesteaks are much better. xrolleyesx

That and, rumor has it, she likes mustard on her soft pretzels.

[Go...gate]

What if you want a cheesesteak and a burger on one bun?

Why not? With onions, mushrooms, a little provolone and ketchup....

[RichH2]

Food,and I am here sitting in NY without access to a good cheesesteak or a "greeker". You guys are cruel. McD just will not suffice now.

[colorless raider]

There ya go. To think that President Chopp was a force for football scholarships certainly overstates the situation. We have no scholarships with her and we will most certainly have none in July when she is a resident of the Philadelphia suburbs. If there is a true movement or inevitability in this direction it will happen. (LFN says that there is momentum. Does anyone else see it.? I don't.) A single individual is not and will not be the deciding factor.

Well it sure doesn't seem to be coming for Lafayette.xnonox

[MplsBison]

Why not? With onions, mushrooms, a little provolone and ketchup....

No ketchup for me, thanks.

I prefer not to get type 2 diabetes from the high fructose corn syrup.

[UAalum72]

No ketchup for me, thanks.

I prefer not to get type 2 diabetes from the high fructose corn syrup.

Heinz Organic Tomato Ketchup is HFCS-free (as are Trader Joe's and others).

I take it that if you're eating steak, provolone, fried onions, and a burger in one sandwich you luckily don't have to worry about cholesterol.

[ngineer]

Don't you think it's the AD's at the respective schools who are the ones who, if really interested in pushing a change in philosophy, would be 'working on' their respective Presidents as well as BOTs to address this issue? Or alternatively, maybe it starts with Femovich who should be telling the members that the future of PL football is regression if a change is not made? I just don't see the Presidents, as a group, taking this bull by the horns. Academic/Ivory Tower types don't cotton to those issues. The rare exception was Peter Likens, who got the PL, nee Colonial League, started in the mid-1980's. But Likens was a rare academic jock--All-PAC 10 wrestler for Stanford. Ironically, Lehigh's current President, Gast, was a pretty decent athlete in college as a runner and jumper at USC. She definitely has made an attempt to be visible at many LU athletic events and especially wrestling and football (which I always attend).

[MplsBison]

Heinz Organic Tomato Ketchup is HFCS-free (as are Trader Joe's and others).

I take it that if you're eating steak, provolone, fried onions, and a burger in one sandwich you luckily don't have to worry about cholesterol.


I was just trying to be a smart ass.


But I did not know there was such a thing as organic Ketchup (I suppose why not?).

[TheValleyRaider]

Don't you think it's the AD's at the respective schools who are the ones who, if really interested in pushing a change in philosophy, would be 'working on' their respective Presidents as well as BOTs to address this issue? Or alternatively, maybe it starts with Femovich who should be telling the members that the future of PL football is regression if a change is not made? I just don't see the Presidents, as a group, taking this bull by the horns. Academic/Ivory Tower types don't cotton to those issues. The rare exception was Peter Likens, who got the PL, nee Colonial League, started in the mid-1980's. But Likens was a rare academic jock--All-PAC 10 wrestler for Stanford. Ironically, Lehigh's current President, Gast, was a pretty decent athlete in college as a runner and jumper at USC. She definitely has made an attempt to be visible at many LU athletic events and especially wrestling and football (which I always attend).

Well, part of that depends on the background of the AD. Chopp may have gotten a fight on the issue from Mark Murphy, given his athletic background. Instead, with Murphy moving to Northwestern (and now the GB Packers), she got to hire Roach. Roach was the AD at Brown, and likely was brought on because of similar philosophies regarding athletics and the like

Interestingly enough, the decision to add scholarships at Colgate was made in 2003, after Murphy left. The AD was actually Don Vaughan, the Men's Hockey coach, acting as the interim until a new one was hired. Most likely, this was the end result of a process Murphy started rather than Vaughan taking the initiative. One has to wonder, then, if Murphy had stayed, maybe Colgate does take the lead on scholarships. How different a story this may have been...

[98hoya]

I know you phrase this as a "nightmare scenario," and I guess even you don't buy into what you're saying, but, really:

In which universe would Holy Cross take their revered basketball program to D3?

Exactly how many 'gate alums could be counted on to throw money at the new chemistry building or new diversities center after the school has tossed its athletic programs into the D3 pile?

Or, to play devil's advocate: in what universe would the 99% of Colgate and HC alums who don't care about football want their teams to remain in a no-non local TV, no national exposure football league when they could join the NESCAC, remain unknown in football to all but the die-hards, yet have their universities associated with Williams and Amherst.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, part of that depends on the background of the AD. Chopp may have gotten a fight on the issue from Mark Murphy, given his athletic background. Instead, with Murphy moving to Northwestern (and now the GB Packers), she got to hire Roach. Roach was the AD at Brown, and likely was brought on because of similar philosophies regarding athletics and the like

Interestingly enough, the decision to add scholarships at Colgate was made in 2003, after Murphy left. The AD was actually Don Vaughan, the Men's Hockey coach, acting as the interim until a new one was hired. Most likely, this was the end result of a process Murphy started rather than Vaughan taking the initiative. One has to wonder, then, if Murphy had stayed, maybe Colgate does take the lead on scholarships. How different a story this may have been...

Was it Vaughn, or Roach, who posted on the Colgate web site a few years ago about the desirability of scholarships in all sports? I think it was Vaughn; Murphy, I think, was gone at that point.

[Franks Tanks]

Or, to play devil's advocate: in what universe would the 99% of Colgate and HC alums who don't care about football want their teams to remain in a no-non local TV, no national exposure football league when they could join the NESCAC, remain unknown in football to all but the die-hards, yet have their universities associated with Williams and Amherst.

Greater than 1% of Colgate and Holy Cross alums care about Football. Especially the older alums who are in positions to make gifts to the university. When Lafayette thought about the possibility of D-III our large benefactors hot the roof, and I trust the same would happen at Holy Cross and Colgate. Competing in D-I is what makes these schools stand out from the NESAC schools and they will preserve that for many years to come I believe.

[TheValleyRaider]

Was it Vaughn, or Roach, who posted on the Colgate web site a few years ago about the desirability of scholarships in all sports? I think it was Vaughn; Murphy, I think, was gone at that point.

Murphy was AD through 2003, Vaughan was interim for the 2003-04 year, then Roach took over in the fall of 2004. It's been Roach doing the "Ask the AD" thing, which leads me to believe it's him you're thinking of. Colgate made the announcement to add the limited number of scholarships in the Fall of 2003, so I suppose it could have been Vaughan, but I don't know...

My only contention would be the first, adding scholarships wouldn't be an on-the-whim kind of action, and announcing them at that moment involved some lead-up, which likely would have included Murphy. Second, Vaughan was only an interim, filling the office until Roach was hired. Would he really have pushed for that kind of change in his short time there? xreadx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Murphy was AD through 2003, Vaughan was interim for the 2003-04 year, then Roach took over in the fall of 2004. It's been Roach doing the "Ask the AD" thing, which leads me to believe it's him you're thinking of. Colgate made the announcement to add the limited number of scholarships in the Fall of 2003, so I suppose it could have been Vaughan, but I don't know...

My only contention would be the first, adding scholarships wouldn't be an on-the-whim kind of action, and announcing them at that moment involved some lead-up, which likely would have included Murphy. Second, Vaughan was only an interim, filling the office until Roach was hired. Would he really have pushed for that kind of change in his short time there? xreadx

It was the "Ask the AD" piece(s) I was thinking of - which leads me to believe that Roach, too. I recall it being after the 2003 announcement. I'm pretty sure I mentioned it in my blog somewhere, but I can't find it in my online archives, which probably means it was in '03 or '04. That's Vaughn territory.

[ngineer]

Does anyone know Sterrett's philosophy in this regard. He must the be the 'dean' of the PL ADs and was, at one time, fairly involved in some committees at the NCAA level, and especially for, then I-AA. Maybe still, but I wonder if he's really put his two cents out there?

[colorless raider]

Greater than 1% of Colgate and Holy Cross alums care about Football. Especially the older alums who are in positions to make gifts to the university. When Lafayette thought about the possibility of D-III our large benefactors hot the roof, and I trust the same would happen at Holy Cross and Colgate. Competing in D-I is what makes these schools stand out from the NESAC schools and they will preserve that for many years to come I believe.

Right on Franks Tanks! From your lips to our new, yet to be picked, president.:)

[98hoya]

Greater than 1% of Colgate and Holy Cross alums care about Football. Especially the older alums who are in positions to make gifts to the university. When Lafayette thought about the possibility of D-III our large benefactors hot the roof, and I trust the same would happen at Holy Cross and Colgate. Competing in D-I is what makes these schools stand out from the NESAC schools and they will preserve that for many years to come I believe.

Franks,

My statement was a bit of intentional overstatement. The point, I hoped folks would take, is that HC and Colgate are not schools whose main aspirations are for gridiron greatness, but instead, they both aspire to academic greatness. I very strongly suspect that the chance to be grouped with stronger academic institutions is a more important goal to these schools than the wish to have a non-scholarship, 1-AA football program.

Put differently, imagine if, say, Boston College was given the chance to drop out of the ACC to join the Ivy League. They actually make money on their programs, but I suspect the decision to join the Ivy and give up 1-A/ACC football would happen so quickly that it would make your head spin...the reason? Because like HC and Colgate, these institutions actually care about academics.

[Franks Tanks]

Franks,

My statement was a bit of intentional overstatement. The point, I hoped folks would take, is that HC and Colgate are not schools whose main aspirations are for gridiron greatness, but instead, they both aspire to academic greatness. I very strongly suspect that the chance to be grouped with stronger academic institutions is a more important goal to these schools than the wish to have a non-scholarship, 1-AA football program.

Put differently, imagine if, say, Boston College was given the chance to drop out of the ACC to join the Ivy League. They actually make money on their programs, but I suspect the decision to join the Ivy to play 1-AA football would happen so quickly that it would make your head spin.

I understand but the culure at schools like Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross and Bucknell are different than your typical small liberal arts college. All schools have gone to great expense and effort to compete in Division I athletics and it is part what makes each respective school what it is. Of the top 100 or so Liberal Arts colleges only the 4 PL schools mentioned above and Davidson, Richmond, Furman and Wofford play in D-I.

I cant speak for Colgate but at Lafayette the average student is attracted to that unique position and culture. It is different from Haverford, Bates, Hamilton, etc. and we like it that way. The biggest gripe my friends and I had at Lafayette is that they are trying to turn this place into Swarthmore, when the last thing we want is to be Swarthmore.

[98hoya]

I understand but the culure at schools like Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross and Bucknell are different than your typical small liberal arts college. All schools have gone to great expense and effort to compete in Division I athletics and it is part what makes each respective school what it is. Of the top 100 or so Liberal Arts colleges only the 4 PL schools mentioned above and Davidson, Richmond, Furman and Wofford play in D-I.

I cant speak for Colgate but at Lafayette the average student is attracted to that unique position and culture. It is different from Haverford, Bates, Hamilton, etc. and we like it that way. The biggest gripe my friends and I had at Lafayette is that they are trying to turn this place into Swarthmore, when the last thing we want is to be Swarthmore.

In fairness, the NESCAC is a pretty diverse league. Tufts is a NESCAC school and is probably more like Colgate of HC than Towson State ever was when it was in PL.

Let me throw this out too, which I suspect is true but is just a theory of mine: For the better academic 1-AA schools, I think one of the really highly held goals is to compete in sports with peer institutions. My own school tries to schedule as many non-cons as it can against the Ivies. That's not because it's necessarily the best competition, but because that's where we aspire to be academically and with whom we want to be associated. We could just as easily schedule NEC schools, but that's not who Georgetown wants to have their name next to.

I will tell you, the athletic department LOVES sending out e-mails to alums when we're about to play Yale or UPenn (regular opponents), but I can't recall a lot of hype before our opener a couple of years ago against Stony Brook. Respectfully, I think at least part of the reason that G'town was so welcomed to the PL (and why it will never be bumped, no matter how bad our fortunes), is because several of the PL schools aspire to be like us academically.

Now, bringing it back to Colgate/HC and why they'd LOVE to be in the NESCAC: those are peer institutions for them, at least aspirationally. Neither school is on par with the NESCAC schools academically, but they're close enough that they'd like to be discussed in the same sentence as them.

[TheValleyRaider]

Now, bringing it back to Colgate/HC and why they'd LOVE to be in the NESCAC: those are peer institutions for them, at least aspirationally. Neither school is on par with the NESCAC schools academically, but they're close enough that they'd like to be discussed in the same sentence as them.

As it is now, we're associated with the Ivies due to the number of games we play with one another (plus, the addition of ECAC Hockey to the Colgate equation)

The choice isn't Patriot League or NESCAC, or at least, not that simple. It's NESCAC or Ivy AND Patriot League, and to me that choice isn't a choice at all

[98hoya]

As it is now, we're associated with the Ivies due to the number of games we play with one another (plus, the addition of ECAC Hockey to the Colgate equation)

The choice isn't Patriot League or NESCAC, or at least, not that simple. It's NESCAC or Ivy AND Patriot League, and to me that choice isn't a choice at all

Gotcha. FWIW, before G'town was even in the PL, we still hustled to scheduled as many Ivies as possible.

Also, FWIW, I suspect it is NOT a mistake that the PL has locked itself into playing 3 games a year with Ivy League teams when it could just as easily be 3 games a year against the NEC.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

In fairness, the NESCAC is a pretty diverse league. Tufts is a NESCAC school and is probably more like Colgate of HC than Towson State ever was when it was in PL.

Let me throw this out too, which I suspect is true but is just a theory of mine: For the better academic 1-AA schools, I think one of the really highly held goals is to compete in sports with peer institutions. My own school tries to schedule as many non-cons as it can against the Ivies. That's not because it's necessarily the best competition, but because that's where we aspire to be academically and with whom we want to be associated. We could just as easily schedule NEC schools, but that's not who Georgetown wants to have their name next to.

I will tell you, the athletic department LOVES sending out e-mails to alums when we're about to play Yale or UPenn (regular opponents), but I can't recall a lot of hype before our opener a couple of years ago against Stony Brook. Respectfully, I think at least part of the reason that G'town was so welcomed to the PL (and why it will never be bumped, no matter how bad our fortunes), is because several of the PL schools aspire to be like us academically.

Now, bringing it back to Colgate/HC and why they'd LOVE to be in the NESCAC: those are peer institutions for them, at least aspirationally. Neither school is on par with the NESCAC schools academically, but they're close enough that they'd like to be discussed in the same sentence as them.

Then explain to me why I shouldn't look at Georgetown's all sports league being the Big East as utter hypocrisy? You relish the hardwood match-ups with those bastions of academics and integrity in the Big East then get all high and mighty in football? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx I'm sure you apply that AI thing to the basketball squad. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Greater than 1% of Colgate and Holy Cross alums care about Football. Especially the older alums who are in positions to make gifts to the university. When Lafayette thought about the possibility of D-III our large benefactors hot the roof, and I trust the same would happen at Holy Cross and Colgate. Competing in D-I is what makes these schools stand out from the NESAC schools and they will preserve that for many years to come I believe.

I would think the older alums would be very pro-football since during their time at HC, they played a major Eastern football schedule culminating with a season ending rivalry game with the Chestnut Hill Beagles. IIRC, it crushed them when the series with the Beagles ended during the 80's. Maybe HC has pissed them all off and they aren't active any longer nor donating much money?

[Franks Tanks]

I would think the older alums would be very pro-football since during their time at HC, they played a major Eastern football schedule culminating with a season ending rivalry game with the Chestnut Hill Beagles. IIRC, it crushed them when the series with the Beagles ended during the 80's. Maybe HC has pissed them all off and they aren't active any longer nor donating much money?

I'm sure many of them are still pissed at Father Brooks, but I think Holy Cross will be D-I for a long time to come.

[98hoya]

Then explain to me why I shouldn't look at Georgetown's all sports league being the Big East as utter hypocrisy? You relish the hardwood match-ups with those bastions of academics and integrity in the Big East then get all high and mighty in football? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx I'm sure you apply that AI thing to the basketball squad. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xlolx xlolx xlolx

I think if you want to play bigtime hoops, the Big East is the best you're going to do. I also think that if the Ivy League called tomorrow, Georgetown would skip out of the Big East in one second flat to join the Ivy...and they'd be right to do it from not only the obvious academic standpoint, but from a financial one too: alumni donations that would result from dropping out of major D-I athletics to join the most prestigious academic association in the world would far exceed what we could make on the basketball program.

[DFW HOYA]

I think if you want to play bigtime hoops, the Big East is the best you're going to do. I also think that if the Ivy League called tomorrow, Georgetown would skip out of the Big East in one second flat to join the Ivy...and they'd be right to do it from not only a sports standpoint, but an academic one too: alumni donations that would result would far exceed what we could make on the basketball program.

There is just no evidence that alumni donations would increase, and certainly not enough to cover the trade-off cost w/o Big East revenues.

[TheValleyRaider]

That does more than a bit far-fetched. I mean, isn't the success of Hoya basketball under John Thompson a big part of the reason Georgetown is the institution it is today. Sure, it was always a good school with good students, but the increased recognition allowed them to become much more selective in their applicants and drove up the profile, right?

It would seem that to downgrade basketball from the Big East to the Ivy League would be a huge financial misstep xtwocentsx

[RichH2]

When last approached on the subject, Sterrett was in favor of schollies

[98hoya]

There is just no evidence that alumni donations would increase, and certainly not enough to cover the trade-off cost w/o Big East revenues.

I concur that there is "no evidence," given that no one has ever been asked to join the Ivy League since TR was wearing short pants, but let's use our powers of reason a little bit...I suspect that alumni giving rate would increase at an incredible rate because there would be remarkable enthusiasm to be a graduate of an ivy league school (not to mention that G'town would get more press as being the 9th Ivy League school than winning 10 NCAA basketball championships would ever give us).

DFW, tell me if I'm wrong, but I suspect the poorest of the Ivies takes in more in annual donations than the median annual G'town annual alumni take + median annual sports profit Georgetown makes (and I use the term "median" because I know G.U. got one huge $100+ million donation this year and probably had a huge sports profit 2 yrs ago when we made the final 4...I'm referring to a typical year, not the anomalous years we're sometimes blessed enough to have). Is that a true statement?

[98hoya]

That does more than a bit far-fetched. I mean, isn't the success of Hoya basketball under John Thompson a big part of the reason Georgetown is the institution it is today. Sure, it was always a good school with good students, but the increased recognition allowed them to become much more selective in their applicants and drove up the profile, right?

It would seem that to downgrade basketball from the Big East to the Ivy League would be a huge financial misstep xtwocentsx

No - Georgetown has always been a prestigious school. Basketball certainly helps keep our names on the public's collective tongue, but for the first 190 or so years of the school's existence, basketball wasn't what made us famous. No doubt, applications and donations increase during good times for the hoops team, but Georgetown would be a US News top 25 national university even if it dropped sports altogether (something on par with Tufts, except with more famous politicians on our resume and a higher selectivity of applicants). The same would be true for other peer academic/athletic schools, like Duke, if they were to drop sports.

By contrast, a school like BC was a regional commuter school until the day Doug Flutie dropped his bomb on Miami. Now it borders on the US News top 25 because of its immense popularity and status as safety school for the elite universities in the northeast.

[Go...gate]

Or, to play devil's advocate: in what universe would the 5% of Colgate and HC alums who don't care about football want their teams to remain in a no-non local TV, no national exposure football league when they could join the NESCAC, remain unknown in football to all but the die-hards, yet have their universities associated with Williams and Amherst.

Fixed it for you. The numbers could get less favorable, but probably not for many years. Athletics have always been important to both schools. Both schools prize the "healthy body, healthy mind" philosophy and school spirit is important

[Go...gate]

In fairness, the NESCAC is a pretty diverse league. Tufts is a NESCAC school and is probably more like Colgate of HC than Towson State ever was when it was in PL.

Let me throw this out too, which I suspect is true but is just a theory of mine: For the better academic 1-AA schools, I think one of the really highly held goals is to compete in sports with peer institutions. My own school tries to schedule as many non-cons as it can against the Ivies. That's not because it's necessarily the best competition, but because that's where we aspire to be academically and with whom we want to be associated. We could just as easily schedule NEC schools, but that's not who Georgetown wants to have their name next to.

I will tell you, the athletic department LOVES sending out e-mails to alums when we're about to play Yale or UPenn (regular opponents), but I can't recall a lot of hype before our opener a couple of years ago against Stony Brook. Respectfully, I think at least part of the reason that G'town was so welcomed to the PL (and why it will never be bumped, no matter how bad our fortunes), is because several of the PL schools aspire to be like us academically.

Now, bringing it back to Colgate/HC and why they'd LOVE to be in the NESCAC: those are peer institutions for them, at least aspirationally. Neither school is on par with the NESCAC schools academically, but they're close enough that they'd like to be discussed in the same sentence as them.

Hmmmmmm.....kind of a broad statement there.

[Go...gate]

Gotcha. FWIW, before G'town was even in the PL, we still hustled to scheduled as many Ivies as possible.

Also, FWIW, I suspect it is NOT a mistake that the PL has locked itself into playing 3 games a year with Ivy League teams when it could just as easily be 3 games a year against the NEC.

Indeed, the relationship is by design. The Ivy League had a significant hand in the formation of the Patriot League. Tony Maruca and Chuck Yrgonien of Princeton were the Ivy's reps in putting together an interlocking schedule agreement between the Patriot and Ivy Leagues which dates to late 1983 and was effective from the Patriot League's first season of competition until a few years ago.

[Go...gate]

I understand but the culure at schools like Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross and Bucknell are different than your typical small liberal arts college. All schools have gone to great expense and effort to compete in Division I athletics and it is part what makes each respective school what it is. Of the top 100 or so Liberal Arts colleges only the 4 PL schools mentioned above and Davidson, Richmond, Furman and Wofford play in D-I.

I cant speak for Colgate but at Lafayette the average student is attracted to that unique position and culture. It is different from Haverford, Bates, Hamilton, etc. and we like it that way. The biggest gripe my friends and I had at Lafayette is that they are trying to turn this place into Swarthmore, when the last thing we want is to be Swarthmore.

Add Lehigh, shake well and you would have a hell of a conference.

[98hoya]

In fairness, the NESCAC is a pretty diverse league. Tufts is a NESCAC school and is probably more like Colgate of HC than Towson State ever was when it was in PL.

Let me throw this out too, which I suspect is true but is just a theory of mine: For the better academic 1-AA schools, I think one of the really highly held goals is to compete in sports with peer institutions. My own school tries to schedule as many non-cons as it can against the Ivies. That's not because it's necessarily the best competition, but because that's where we aspire to be academically and with whom we want to be associated. We could just as easily schedule NEC schools, but that's not who Georgetown wants to have their name next to.

I will tell you, the athletic department LOVES sending out e-mails to alums when we're about to play Yale or UPenn (regular opponents), but I can't recall a lot of hype before our opener a couple of years ago against Stony Brook. Respectfully, I think at least part of the reason that G'town was so welcomed to the PL (and why it will never be bumped, no matter how bad our fortunes), is because several of the PL schools aspire to be like us academically.

Now, bringing it back to Colgate/HC and why they'd LOVE to be in the NESCAC: those are peer institutions for them, at least aspirationally. Neither school is on par with the NESCAC schools academically, but they're close enough that they'd like to be discussed in the same sentence as them.

Hmmmmmm.....kind of a broad statement there.

Respectfully, I think it's a pretty accurate statement. I'm not aware of any objective standard (understanding that all these measures are imperfect) of academic excellence that would put either Colgate or HC above the majority of NESCAC schools, although it might be on par with some of the lower-ranked NESCACs. That's not to say Colgate and HC aren't excellent schools, it's just that they're not as good as the NESCAC schools, academically speaking.

I'll admit, as a G'town alum, I have Ivy envy. There are maybe a few academic measures where G.U. might approach the lower tier Ivies (we do exceed a few in terms of admissions rate and other lesser measures), but that's about as close as it gets. In fairness, that's what I think the relative position is of Colate/HC to the NESCAC schools.

[TheValleyRaider]

Respectfully, I think it's a pretty accurate statement. I'm not aware of any objective standard (understanding that all these measures are imperfect) of academic excellence that would put either Colgate or HC above the majority of NESCAC schools, although it might be on par with some of the lower-ranked NESCACs. That's not to say Colgate and HC aren't excellent schools, it's just that they're not as good as the NESCAC schools, academically speaking.

I'll admit, as a G'town alum, I have Ivy envy. There are maybe a few academic measures where G.U. might approach the lower tier Ivies (we do exceed a few in terms of admissions rate and other lesser measures), but that's about as close as it gets. In fairness, that's what I think the relative position is of Colate/HC to the NESCAC schools.

But we're not the same as the NESCAC schools. Division I has been part of the university's image from the beginning of intercollegiate athletics. Competing at the highest level has always been a part of our mission

It is more complicated than just saying, "Well, academically we're similar." Even at a school as academically-centered as Colgate, other things play a role into the image of the school as we understand it. For us, that includes old rivalries with Ivy League institutions and being at the same level as they are. I can't speak for Holy Cross, but when it comes to Colgate, we aren't the "9th Ivy" for nothing

[98hoya]

Competing at the highest level has always been a part of our mission

Maybe we define highest level differently. I'd say that 1-AA non-scholarship football is not "the highest level."

There ARE fine academic schools that truly do compete at the highest level (Gtown in basketball only; Vanderbilt, Duke, Stanford, Cal in both football and hoops). Respectfully, Colgate is not on par with any of those places, academically or athletically. That's why I think the great majority of Colgate folks would be (or SHOULD be, at least) happy if they could ever join the NESCAC.

[TheValleyRaider]

Maybe we define highest level differently. I'd say that 1-AA non-scholarship football is not "the highest level."

There ARE fine academic schools that truly do compete at the highest level (Gtown in basketball only; Vanderbilt, Duke, Stanford, Cal in both football and hoops). Respectfully, Colgate is not on par with any of those places, academically or athletically. That's why I think the great majority of Colgate folks would be (or SHOULD be, at least) happy if they could ever join the NESCAC.

I really think you're overstating the similarities between Colgate and the NESCAC. Academically, as liberal arts colleges, we're similar. Otherwise, there are big differences. We're here in D-I, and they're D-III in the NESCAC for reasons, and one of those is that Colgate values high-level athletic competition as an overall part of the school's mission in a way that those institutions simply do not

[colorless raider]

Maybe we define highest level differently. I'd say that 1-AA non-scholarship football is not "the highest level."

There ARE fine academic schools that truly do compete at the highest level (Gtown in basketball only; Vanderbilt, Duke, Stanford, Cal in both football and hoops). Respectfully, Colgate is not on par with any of those places, academically or athletically. That's why I think the great majority of Colgate folks would be (or SHOULD be, at least) happy if they could ever join the NESCAC.

Forget about it. Not a penny more if we go Div 3.

[Seawolf97]

Forget about it. Not a penny more if we go Div 3.

I could not ever see that happeningxthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

I suspect that alumni giving rate would increase at an incredible rate because there would be remarkable enthusiasm to be a graduate of an ivy league school (not to mention that G'town would get more press as being the 9th Ivy League school than winning 10 NCAA basketball championships would ever give us).

Georgetown's giving rate is 30%. The comparable Ivy programs (Penn, Columbia, Cornell) are betweem 34-38%. One would think a Cornell grad would have more enthusiaasm than that for being an Ivy graduate...but why, then, does Holy Cross and Davidson then have 55% giving rates, and Furman is nearly 70%? Is a Furman man twice as enthusiastic as a Georgetown one?

It's because schools with sizeable graduate populations tend to have lower giving rates (NYU, for example, is at 11%) and people tend to give because of the undergraduate experience while they were there, not where they got rheir law degree or M.A. Georgetown's numbers (and I suspect other schools face this same dilemma) are down because many of its 70's and 80's graduates did not enjoy the undergraduate years, be it the higher cost of education, the bureaucracy, or the general attitude of administrators.

If you felt Georgetown or Fordham or Towson strung you along for four years, joining the Ivy League or the CAA or the Big South doesn't change that fundamental proposition.


DFW, tell me if I'm wrong, but I suspect the poorest of the Ivies takes in more in annual donations than the median annual G'town annual alumni take + median annual sports profit Georgetown makes (and I use the term "median" because I know G.U. got one huge $100+ million donation this year and probably had a huge sports profit 2 yrs ago when we made the final 4...I'm referring to a typical year, not the anomalous years we're sometimes blessed enough to have). Is that a true statement?

Of course the Ivies take in a lot more money than Georgetown. But so does Stanford, Duke, and Emory and about 40 other schools. The University of Arkansas raised three times as much as Georgetown did. But annual giving includes research dollars and foundation gifts that smaller schools don't share in and which atheltics has nothing to do with. Georgetown has no engineering or applied science programs that bring in the big dollars. Outside of Lehigh, that's the case at most PL schools.

Also, Georgetown does not make money on athletics, even in the Final Four season. Almost no schools outside I-A break even. Basketball revenues are nowhere close to supporting the current Georgetown athletic budget, which is now $28 million across 29 sports. (Of course, neither does football.) And as Rice University found out in an extensive study a few years ago, it would cost even more to host a downsized program, because you have all the expenses without any of the revenues. Ivy schools can afford not to compete at the highest level, so to speak, but most cannot.

[ngineer]

I understand but the culure at schools like Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross and Bucknell are different than your typical small liberal arts college. All schools have gone to great expense and effort to compete in Division I athletics and it is part what makes each respective school what it is. Of the top 100 or so Liberal Arts colleges only the 4 PL schools mentioned above and Davidson, Richmond, Furman and Wofford play in D-I.

I cant speak for Colgate but at Lafayette the average student is attracted to that unique position and culture. It is different from Haverford, Bates, Hamilton, etc. and we like it that way. The biggest gripe my friends and I had at Lafayette is that they are trying to turn this place into Swarthmore, when the last thing we want is to be Swarthmore.


Agreed. That seemed to be the mission of Rothkopf and company. I'm sure there is still a cadre of faculty that want to see that. Just like those at Lehigh want it to become MIT. Aint happenin'

[ngineer]

Add Lehigh, shake well and you would have a hell of a conference.

I would agree with that....however, we'd be the lone non-liberal arts college.:o

[ngineer]

When last approached on the subject, Sterrett was in favor of schollies

Good to hear. Then maybe he can start working on Gast....in a platonic sort of way.:D

[98hoya]

Georgetown's giving rate is 30%. The comparable Ivy programs (Penn, Columbia, Cornell) are betweem 34-38%. One would think a Cornell grad would have more enthusiaasm than that for being an Ivy graduate...but why, then, does Holy Cross and Davidson then have 55% giving rates, and Furman is nearly 70%? Is a Furman man twice as enthusiastic as a Georgetown one?

It's because schools with sizeable graduate populations tend to have lower giving rates (NYU, for example, is at 11%) and people tend to give because of the undergraduate experience while they were there, not where they got rheir law degree or M.A. Georgetown's numbers (and I suspect other schools face this same dilemma) are down because many of its 70's and 80's graduates did not enjoy the undergraduate years, be it the higher cost of education, the bureaucracy, or the general attitude of administrators.

If you felt Georgetown or Fordham or Towson strung you along for four years, joining the Ivy League or the CAA or the Big South doesn't change that fundamental proposition.



Of course the Ivies take in a lot more money than Georgetown. But so does Stanford, Duke, and Emory and about 40 other schools. The University of Arkansas raised three times as much as Georgetown did. But annual giving includes research dollars and foundation gifts that smaller schools don't share in and which atheltics has nothing to do with. Georgetown has no engineering or applied science programs that bring in the big dollars. Outside of Lehigh, that's the case at most PL schools.

Also, Georgetown does not make money on athletics, even in the Final Four season. Almost no schools outside I-A break even. Basketball revenues are nowhere close to supporting the current Georgetown athletic budget, which is now $28 million across 29 sports. (Of course, neither does football.) And as Rice University found out in an extensive study a few years ago, it would cost even more to host a downsized program, because you have all the expenses without any of the revenues. Ivy schools can afford not to compete at the highest level, so to speak, but most cannot.

OK, I hear you. I guess maybe it comes down to personal opinion. If you ask me whether I'd rather have an NCAA champion basketball team or an Ivy League college, I'll take the Ivy League.

[98hoya]

I really think you're overstating the similarities between Colgate and the NESCAC. Academically, as liberal arts colleges, we're similar. Otherwise, there are big differences. We're here in D-I, and they're D-III in the NESCAC for reasons, and one of those is that Colgate values high-level athletic competition as an overall part of the school's mission in a way that those institutions simply do not

OK, but I'm pretty sure that Williams and Amherst are pretty serious about football, albeit in a league that doesn't play in the post-season or play any non-cons. Not to mention that NESCAC teams win more D-III championships than any other D-III league. I'd say they take athletics pretty seriously in the NESCAC.

[crusader11]

But we're not the same as the NESCAC schools. Division I has been part of the university's image from the beginning of intercollegiate athletics. Competing at the highest level has always been a part of our mission

It is more complicated than just saying, "Well, academically we're similar." Even at a school as academically-centered as Colgate, other things play a role into the image of the school as we understand it. For us, that includes old rivalries with Ivy League institutions and being at the same level as they are. I can't speak for Holy Cross, but when it comes to Colgate, we aren't the "9th Ivy" for nothing

Holy Cross was invited to join to the Ivy League 20 or so years ago, but would have to eliminate the Jesuit and religious affiliation, something that clearly would not happen.

[98hoya]

Holy Cross was invited to join to the Ivy League 20 or so years ago, but would have to eliminate the Jesuit and religious affiliation, something that clearly would not happen.

HC was never, ever invited to the Ivy League. However, it IS one of about 25 schools who have an urban legend that involves the same claim (Union, Bowdoin, Wm & Mary, Johns Hopkins, and Rutgers are others that make the same or similar claim).

Sorry man, it didn't happen.

[TheValleyRaider]

OK, but I'm pretty sure that Williams and Amherst are pretty serious about football, albeit in a league that doesn't play in the post-season or play any non-cons. Not to mention that NESCAC teams win more D-III championships than any other D-III league. I'd say they take athletics pretty seriously in the NESCAC.

They take it so seriously that we would wipe the floor with any NESCAC squad. Sure they take athletics seriously...at the D-III level.

Based on data collected by the US Dept. of Education, we spent $18 Million on our athletics department

By comparison, Amherst spent $4.5 Million, Williams $4.2 Million

On just Football (rounded numbers):
Colgate: $4,000,000
Amherst: $500,000
Williams: $300,000

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

We're D-I for a reason, and they're D-III for a reason. Going NESCAC would represent a huge downgrade in our commitment to athletics

[98hoya]

They take it so seriously that we would wipe the floor with any NESCAC squad. Sure they take athletics seriously...at the D-III level.

Based on data collected by the US Dept. of Education, we spent $18 Million on our athletics department

By comparison, Amherst spent $4.5 Million, Williams $4.2 Million

On just Football (rounded numbers):
Colgate: $4,000,000
Amherst: $500,000
Williams: $300,000

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

We're D-I for a reason, and they're D-III for a reason. Going NESCAC would represent a huge downgrade in our commitment to athletics

Objectively, I agree, it would. However - and this goes back to my original comment about only 1% of people caring - I don't think anyone outside of the real sports junkies would ever notice. When Arnold Alumni rolls back to campus in October and sees his team is 6-2, do you think he'd really be upset if the 6 wins were against the likes of Amherst or Tufts, as opposed to Lafayette and Bucknell?

[MplsBison]

They take it so seriously that we would wipe the floor with any NESCAC squad. Sure they take athletics seriously...at the D-III level.

Based on data collected by the US Dept. of Education, we spent $18 Million on our athletics department

By comparison, Amherst spent $4.5 Million, Williams $4.2 Million

On just Football (rounded numbers):
Colgate: $4,000,000
Amherst: $500,000
Williams: $300,000

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

We're D-I for a reason, and they're D-III for a reason. Going NESCAC would represent a huge downgrade in our commitment to athletics


How much of that is scholarships?


Be curious to know what the "real" difference is in operating costs for a DI program vs. a DIII program.

[DFW HOYA]

Be curious to know what the "real" difference is in operating costs for a DI program vs. a DIII program.

Outside of scholarships and facilities, three things:

1. Staff. D-III teams have one full time coach, I-AA anywhere from 7-10.
2. Scheduling. Most D-III conferences focus on short regional trips, nothing more.
3. Recruiting and travel budgets.

[ngineer]

How much of that is scholarships?


Be curious to know what the "real" difference is in operating costs for a DI program vs. a DIII program.

Alot. D-III gives their athletes 'grants in aid' same as the PL does. Based on the 'family economic need' formula. Now the 'real' difference is how MUCH or how MANY athletes they are able to fund. I think that is the significance. Philosophically, it's not much different. I was recruited at both D-III size and, then, I-AA sized schools in the late 60's and other than Lehigh, Bucknell, Lafayette, etc. going from D-II to I-AA nothing much as changed in that regard.

[Cobblestone]

Then explain to me why I shouldn't look at Georgetown's all sports league being the Big East as utter hypocrisy? You relish the hardwood match-ups with those bastions of academics and integrity in the Big East then get all high and mighty in football? xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx I'm sure you apply that AI thing to the basketball squad. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xlolx xlolx xlolx

A little off topic here, but I just wanted to mention that AI could have easily played college football not only at Georgetown but any school he probably wanted to. A few years back a poster on this board (HIU I think) posted a link to YOUTUBE videos of AI playing high school football. The guy could do it all...hit like a truck on defense (he was a FS), throw the ball on offense and return punts. If he chose, he could have easily been a two sports athlete.

[Cobblestone]

Maybe Chopp will bring football back to Swarthmore. I remember when they dropped the program due to an elitist president who thought having a football program would tarnish the image of the school. This guy actually had (warped) visions of a Swarthmore grad not being able to land a job on an interview because the school had a bad reputation due to having a football program. I guess in his eyes it wasn't "intellectual" enough to have such a program.

Hey, I don't blame him for thinking like that. I mean, look at how the reputation of MIT has suffered since they reinstated football. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[TheValleyRaider]

Objectively, I agree, it would. However - and this goes back to my original comment about only 1% of people caring - I don't think anyone outside of the real sports junkies would ever notice. When Arnold Alumni rolls back to campus in October and sees his team is 6-2, do you think he'd really be upset if the 6 wins were against the likes of Amherst or Tufts, as opposed to Lafayette and Bucknell?

I think he'd be most upset if they didn't come against Dartmouth, Cornell and Princeton

[carney2]

Holy Cross was invited to join to the Ivy League 20 or so years ago, but would have to eliminate the Jesuit and religious affiliation, something that clearly would not happen.

I had never heard this. Very interesting. In fact, I never heard of the Ivys peeking out the door at anyone over these 50+ years. Prime case is Colgate who did everything up to and including institutional prostitution to get past that closed door and never got so much as a "nice try." Can you provide chapter and verse? i.e., Can you reference any old news or other articles that that will shed some light on this?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I had never heard this. Very interesting. In fact, I never heard of the Ivys peeking out the door at anyone over these 50+ years. Prime case is Colgate who did everything up to and including institutional prostitution to get past that closed door and never got so much as a "nice try." Can you provide chapter and verse? i.e., Can you reference any old news or other articles that that will shed some light on this?

I was under the impression that Colgate was closer to Ivy League inclusion than you think. In the '80s, wasn't there some serious consideration of ditching Columbia and picking up Colgate? Even in Ivy circles Colgate was/is considered the "ninth Ivy" - for quite some time, too.

As for Holy Cross, I'm unaware of any opportunities the 'Cross had to become an Ivy school. IMO, it couldn't have happened before 1986 since before then they were a different school - their choice to go to the Patriot League was an effort to increase their academic profile. Plus, they would have had to jettison their religious affiliation - something that CLEARLY would never happen.

[Franks Tanks]

I was under the impression that Colgate was closer to Ivy League inclusion than you think. In the '80s, wasn't there some serious consideration of ditching Columbia and picking up Colgate? Even in Ivy circles Colgate was/is considered the "ninth Ivy" - for quite some time, too.

As for Holy Cross, I'm unaware of any opportunities the 'Cross had to become an Ivy school. IMO, it couldn't have happened before 1986 since before then they were a different school - their choice to go to the Patriot League was an effort to increase their academic profile. Plus, they would have had to jettison their religious affiliation - something that CLEARLY would never happen.

If the Ivy were to expand would they look at a liberal arts school? The Ivy's are all ranked as national universities and most Ivy schools have extensive graduate schools. Colgate has a long history in athletic competition with the Ivies, but dont really have a lot in common at an institutional level.

Also wouldnt Cornell get the boot first? How are they in the Ivy League in the first place?

[DFW HOYA]

A little off topic here, but I just wanted to mention that AI could have easily played college football not only at Georgetown but any school he probably wanted to. A few years back a poster on this board (HIU I think) posted a link to YOUTUBE videos of AI playing high school football. The guy could do it all...hit like a truck on defense (he was a FS), throw the ball on offense and return punts. If he chose, he could have easily been a two sports athlete.

Allen Iverson is acknowledged as one of the grestest HS quarterbacks in Virginia history, and he said he would like to have been a two sport athlete. John Thompson had other ideas, however.


I was under the impression that Colgate was closer to Ivy League inclusion than you think. In the '80s, wasn't there some serious consideration of ditching Columbia and picking up Colgate? Even in Ivy circles Colgate was/is considered the "ninth Ivy" - for quite some time, too.

There was a trial balloon floated with a struggling Northwestern program in the early 1980's about their interest in playing Ivy football if Columbia decided to fold its football team amidst the decay of the W/L records and of Baker Field, which Columbia considered selling to New York Presbyterian Hospital. Northwestern passed, Mr. Wien came through with the stadium gift, and it was all quickly tabled.



As for Holy Cross, I'm unaware of any opportunities the 'Cross had to become an Ivy school. IMO, it couldn't have happened before 1986 since before then they were a different school - their choice to go to the Patriot League was an effort to increase their academic profile. Plus, they would have had to jettison their religious affiliation - something that CLEARLY would never happen.

Unlikely for Holy Cross, but it's happened elsewhere. Ask Marist.

[MplsBison]

Alot. D-III gives their athletes 'grants in aid' same as the PL does. Based on the 'family economic need' formula. Now the 'real' difference is how MUCH or how MANY athletes they are able to fund. I think that is the significance. Philosophically, it's not much different. I was recruited at both D-III size and, then, I-AA sized schools in the late 60's and other than Lehigh, Bucknell, Lafayette, etc. going from D-II to I-AA nothing much as changed in that regard.

Wasn't it "college division" and "university division" before the 70's?


Also, it's my understanding that a "grant in aid" is counted by the NCAA as an "equivalency", of which you are limited in total to 63 for FCS. DIII does not allow any equivalencies.


IE, the only aid a player has access to is general financial aid that is available to all students, same as the Ivy and Patriot even though they claim to be DI.

[OLPOP]

Patriot league grants count as equivalencies and are not available to the general student population

[Franks Tanks]

Patriot league grants count as equivalencies and are not available to the general student population

True-- D-III players may recieve financial aid from the school but it is officially not athletic related. If a player at a D-III school quits their aid will be the same, when a PL player quits the team their aid shrinks significantly.

[Bull Fan]

Great discussion.

I can't for the life of me imagine Columbia ever... EVER... giving up their place in the IL. The community is too in love with the status to ever consider otherwise.

And yes, Buffalo is one of the 25 universities to have that urban legend about the invite ;)

[crusader11]

HC was never, ever invited to the Ivy League. However, it IS one of about 25 schools who have an urban legend that involves the same claim (Union, Bowdoin, Wm & Mary, Johns Hopkins, and Rutgers are others that make the same or similar claim).

Sorry man, it didn't happen.

Really? Because it did happen.

[DFW HOYA]

I can't for the life of me imagine Columbia ever... EVER... giving up their place in the IL. The community is too in love with the status to ever consider otherwise.

Columbia wasn't considering leaving the Ivy Group, but the state of the football (and other athletic) programs in the 1970's was a cause for a lot of intstitutional concern.

They may have considered a scenario like the University of Chicago, which is still a member of the Big Ten (through the CIC) but do not field athletic teams there.


Really? Because it did happen.

So why would the Ivy select "Fenwick College"...er...Holy Cross, but pass on more selective Carnegie Tier I schools like Georgetown and Boston College, or even Colgate?

[carney2]

Really? Because it did happen.

One more time: chapter and verse; where is it written?

[MplsBison]

Patriot league grants count as equivalencies and are not available to the general student population

Sorry you're right.

I meant to say Pioneer.



Too many wanna be Ivy League conferences that try to call their conference "League".

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

A little off topic here, but I just wanted to mention that AI could have easily played college football not only at Georgetown but any school he probably wanted to. A few years back a poster on this board (HIU I think) posted a link to YOUTUBE videos of AI playing high school football. The guy could do it all...hit like a truck on defense (he was a FS), throw the ball on offense and return punts. If he chose, he could have easily been a two sports athlete.

Sorry, I wasn't talking about Allen Iverson, but rather that criteria (Academic Index ??) used by the Patriot for admissions for football. The one that had such an impact on Fordham and generated a long thread of discussion. I was alluding to how stringent the academic requirements appear to be for football at Georgetown when I get the impression that it is an entirely different story for basketball at Georgetown. We're an Ivy League wannabe, but please ignore that we've sold out for the obscene money of Big East basketball. xrolleyesx xpeacex We can bash the Ivy for many things, but they have at least held true to their values. As have those UAA schools (NYU, Chicago, Rochester, Washington College of Saint Louis, Carnegie Mellon, Case Western, Brandeis and Emory) who must have outrageous travel expenses as a result.

[98hoya]

I think he'd be most upset if they didn't come against Dartmouth, Cornell and Princeton

I concur - it's about scheduling schools who your school aspires to be like. That's why I think the NESCAC makes sense for Colgate and HC.

[98hoya]

I was under the impression that Colgate was closer to Ivy League inclusion than you think. In the '80s, wasn't there some serious consideration of ditching Columbia and picking up Colgate? Even in Ivy circles Colgate was/is considered the "ninth Ivy" - for quite some time, too.

As for Holy Cross, I'm unaware of any opportunities the 'Cross had to become an Ivy school. IMO, it couldn't have happened before 1986 since before then they were a different school - their choice to go to the Patriot League was an effort to increase their academic profile. Plus, they would have had to jettison their religious affiliation - something that CLEARLY would never happen.

Guys, let me help you out: the Ivy League is not interested in any other schools and they haven't been since they were formed. Their brand extends far, far, far beyond their non-playoff eligible football league. Colgate was never in the running, nor was HC. These rumors arise every few years at pretty much every good-but-not-great college. If you don't believe me, do a yahoo search for it.

[Franks Tanks]

I concur - it's about scheduling schools who your school aspires to be like. That's why I think the NESCAC makes sense for Colgate and HC.

Does that mean Georgetown aspires to be like South Florida, Cincy, WVU and Louisville?

[98hoya]

Really? Because it did happen.

No, crusader11, it didn't. No more than the swim requirement they used to have for graduation, or the Nostradamus prediction that just might have applied to your big freshman dorm.

Tell you what - find me one, ONE, legitimate source that says Holy Cross was in the running for the Ivy League and I'll publicly apologize. It didn't happen, bud, sorry.

[98hoya]

So why would the Ivy select "Fenwick College"...er...Holy Cross, but pass on more selective Carnegie Tier I schools like Georgetown and Boston College, or even Colgate?

Urban legends. It makes people who go to good-but-not-great colleges feel like their college is something it's not. HC has a rich and wonderful history, but that history has never involved being an academically elite school.

[98hoya]

Does that mean Georgetown aspires to be like South Florida, Cincy, WVU and Louisville?

No, Georgetown aspires to be like the Ivy League schools. We're not doing any better than nipping at the heels of the lower Ivies by most measures, and likely will never be on par with the upper Ivies, but that's not going to stop the school from trying.

As I said a few pages ago, the Big East is as close as it comes to being a good conference, academically, in bigtime basketball, so it made sense both academically and geographically. It's not the perfect match, but it's as good as it gets if you want to have a nationally known hoops program. Also, in repitition of what I said before: if the Ivy ever called for Gtown to join (no crusader, they haven't called us either), then I'd hope that we would RUN, not walk, to do so. I suspect we don't need to worry about that problem in the near future, however.

[Franks Tanks]

No, Georgetown aspires to be like the Ivy League schools. We're not there, likely will never be, but that's not going to stop the school from trying.

As I said a few pages ago, the Big East is as close as it comes to being a good conference, academically, in bigtime basketball, so it made sense both academically and geographically. It's not the perfect match, but it's as good as it gets if you want to have a nationally known hoops program. Also, in repitition of what I said before: if the Ivy ever called for Gtown to join (no crusader, they haven't called us either), then I'd hope that we would RUN, not walk, to do so. I suspect we don't need to worry about that problem in the near future, however.


So Colgate should play Williams and Hamilton because that is who they should be, while it ok for Georgetwon to run with Big East schools. I understand BE basketball is more impactful than any PL sport, but you are the pot calling the kettle black here buddy.

You are basically saying that it's ok to "sell out" if the price is right.

[98hoya]

So Colgate should play Williams and Hamilton because that is who they should be, while it ok for Georgetwon to run with Big East schools. I understand BE basketball is more impactful than any PL sport. but you are the pot calling the kettle black here buddy.

Hold on, now.

This conversation started when someone mocked the idea of HC or Colgate joining the NESCAC. I suggested that those schools joining the NESCAC wouldn't be such a bad thing, since that's the kind of school those two schools aspire to be and there would be a limited downside among alumni b/c a very small proportion of the folks could/would parse the difference between non-scholarship 1-AA and a good D-III league.

Now, if you want to apply that reasoning to Georgetown: if we had the opportunity to join the Ivy League, which is where we academically and in terms of status aspire to be, I would 100% support doing it. Heck, if the Ivy League called and said we want you to DROP the football program altogether and have your hugely profitable and famous basketball program join our cruddy league, I'd still say that we should do it without a second thought.

Capice?

[Franks Tanks]

Hold on, now.

This conversation started when someone mocked the idea of HC or Colgate joining the NESCAC. I suggested that those schools joining the NESCAC wouldn't be such a bad thing, since that's the kind of school those two schools aspire to be and there would be a limited downside among alumni b/c a very small proportion of the folks could/would parse the difference between non-scholarship 1-AA and a good D-III league.

Now, if you want to apply that reasoning to Georgetown: if we had the opportunity to join the Ivy League, which is where we academically and in terms of status aspire to be, I would 100% support doing it. Heck, if the Ivy League called and said we want you to DROP the football program altogether and have your hugely profitable and famous basketball program join our cruddy league, I'd still say that we should do it without a second thought.

Capice?

If that is your position I can buy it. Reading snippets of older posts were giving a different impression

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

No, Georgetown aspires to be like the Ivy League schools. We're not doing any better than nipping at the heels of the lower Ivies by most measure, and likely will never be on par with the upper Ivies, but that's not going to stop the school from trying.

As I said a few pages ago, the Big East is as close as it comes to being a good conference, academically, in bigtime basketball, so it made sense both academically and geographically. It's not the perfect match, but it's as good as it gets if you want to have a nationally known hoops program. Also, in repitition of what I said before: if the Ivy ever called for Gtown to join (no crusader, they haven't called us either), then I'd hope that we would RUN, not walk, to do so. I suspect we don't need to worry about that problem in the near future, however.

Some of the BE schools may be decent academically, but I don't think their men's basketball programs are that well thought of academically. Other than the aberration called Emeka Okafor, what is the image academically of the UConVict Sled Dogs? Providence College and Syracuse University? xrotatehx xlolx And let's see, Bob Huggins and Cincinnati immediately brings Rhodes Scholars to mind. xrolleyesx And now he's at West Virginia. Difficult to believe that St. Johns and Seton Hall are competing with the Ivy and Patriot League for players. Sorry, it's my humble opinion that the Big East Basketball League is for all intent and purpose a semi-professional operation. The Georgetown institution that many on here describe doesn't seems like it should be an all sports member of the BE. xtwocentsx

[98hoya]

Some of the BE schools may be decent academically, but I don't think their men's basketball programs are that well thought of academically. Other than the aberration called Emeka Okafor, what is the image academically of the UConVict Sled Dogs? Providence College and Syracuse University? xrotatehx xlolx And let's see, Bob Huggins and Cincinnati immediately brings Rhodes Scholars to mind. xrolleyesx And now he's at West Virginia. Difficult to believe that St. Johns and Seton Hall are competing with the Ivy and Patriot League for players. Sorry, it's my humble opinion that the Big East Basketball League is for all intent and purpose a semi-professional operation. The Georgetown institution that many on here describe doesn't seems like it should be an all sports member of the BE. xtwocentsx

I hear you, and I agree. But it doesn't solve the problem. Georgetown wants a bigtime hoops team. That's our non-academic calling card. With that goal in mind, where is it that you think G'town should go if not the Big East? I am aware of no better option.

In my view, there is no way to be involved with scholarship level sports and not accept some hypocrisy. I'm with you - the student-athletes are, in some cases, much more athlete than student (although, I'm proud to say, Gtown has a fantastic graduation rate for basketball players).

The Big East, to my observation, is as close as it gets at the bigtime level. Again, if the Ivy wants us, I say let's go and trade the dream of Final Fours for the dream of true academic greatness (or at least, more exposure as being an academically elite school). I'm not gonna hold my breath while waiting for the phone to ring from Ivy League HQ.

[Go...gate]

I was under the impression that Colgate was closer to Ivy League inclusion than you think. In the '80s, wasn't there some serious consideration of ditching Columbia and picking up Colgate? Even in Ivy circles Colgate was/is considered the "ninth Ivy" - for quite some time, too.

As for Holy Cross, I'm unaware of any opportunities the 'Cross had to become an Ivy school. IMO, it couldn't have happened before 1986 since before then they were a different school - their choice to go to the Patriot League was an effort to increase their academic profile. Plus, they would have had to jettison their religious affiliation - something that CLEARLY would never happen.

This may go on a bit, and I may have to supplement it, but here goes.

Historically, Colgate has had the closest relationship with the Ivy, especially Brown (another Baptist seminary), officials of which were helpful (including financially) to Colgate in its early history. Indeed, Colgate and Brown shared certain senior faculty and administrators who worked for both institutions in the 19th and early 20th centuries. (Colgate had a Divinity School on campus at one time, which eventually became independent and moved to Rochester, NY)

In the 1920's, 30's and '40's, Colgate was routinely lumped in among the so-called "Ivy Group" schools, a term started by the sportswriter Caswell Adams and probably embellished by others such as Grantland Rice, Red Smith and others. This "Ivy Group" included the present Ivy League (sometimes absent Pennsylvania) along with Army, Navy, Rutgers (then a private school), Lafayette (though, inexplicably, not Lehigh), Colgate and Syracuse.

As the 50's beckoned and and the Ivy League came into being (1954 - first games in 1956), some of the old relationships broke down. Several of the schools did not want to follow the conference model that the Ivy espoused - no Spring Practice, no athletic scholarships, Presidential control, a ban on post-season games, etc.

Ben Schwartzwalder of Syracuse and John Steigman and Robert Twitchell of Rutgers (by now the New Jersey State University) felt the Ivy represented de-emphasis (which it did) and lobbied their administrations against affiliation. The issue was controversial at Syracuse (which had a long-time rivalry with Cornell), and Rutgers (which had played Princeton in the first football game in 1869 and Columbia in the fourth or fifth football game ever in 1871), with both schools being sensitive to their long-time institutional relationships with these about-to-be "Ivy" schools.

Army and Navy came up with a middle ground - they remained afffiliated with the Ivy in some sports (Eastern Intercollegiate Baseball League, Eastern Intercollegiate Swimming League and others) but became independents in Football, Basketball and other sports. Even as an Independent, however, Army and Navy continued to play the Ivies in nearly all sports.

Lafayette, by now a member of the "Middle Three" with Rutgers and Lehigh, and also a member of the Middle Atlantic Conference, also continued to play the Ivies in all sports and, though it did not join the Ivy League, adopted many of its core policies for its own athletic program.

Colgate's athletic director, Eppie Barnes, aggressively sought inclusion in the Ivy League and was supported by Brown and Cornell (which schools, incidentially, had also supported Syracuse for membership). At that time, Colgate had been an annual and traditional rival of Brown and Cornell, frequently played Princeton and Yale, periodically played Columbia, had an old but infrequently-played series with Dartmouth, had infrequently played Harvard and had never played Pennsylvania. To get a better view of the closeness of Colgate's relationship with the "Ivy Group" and potential members of the subsequent Ivy League, consider that on a frequent or annual basis, Colgate played Army, Syracuse, Lafayette and Rutgers.

Colgate formally adopted, in toto, the Ivy League's proposed guidelines as a gesture of support for same (N.B. except for Spring Practice, until its 2005 addition of athletic scholarships, Colgate never changed this approach, either) Several newspaper accounts of the early 1950's mentioned Colgate as a potential Ivy member instead of Pennsylvania.

In the end, however, the Ivy in 1954 settled on its "Ancient Eight". The Ivies, however, continued to play Rutgers (until 1981), Colgate and Lafayette from the old "Ivy Group" schools because these schools continued to follow, either loosely or loyally, some or all of the Ivy philosophy. In part, as a result of this, Colgate is the Ivy League's most-played non-conference opponent in football.

[98hoya]

This may go on a bit, and I may have to supplement it, but here goes.

Historically, Colgate has had the closest relationship with the Ivy, especially Brown (another Baptist seminary), officials of which were helpful (including financially) to Colgate in its early history. Indeed, Colgate and Brown shared certain senior faculty and administrators who worked for both institutions in the 19th and early 20th centuries. (Colgate had a Divinity School on campus at one time, which eventually became independent and moved to Rochester, NY)

In the 1920's, 30's and '40's, Colgate was routinely lumped in among the so-called "Ivy Group" schools, a term started by the sportswriter Caswell Adams and probably embellished by others such as Grantland Rice, Red Smith and others. This "Ivy Group" included the present Ivy League (sometimes absent Pennsylvania) along with Army, Navy, Rutgers (then a private school), Lafayette (though, inexplicably, not Lehigh), Colgate and Syracuse.

As the 50's beckoned and and the Ivy League came into being (1954 - first games in 1956), some of the old relationships broke down. Several of the schools did not want to follow the conference model that the Ivy espoused - no Spring Practice, no athletic scholarships, Presidential control, a ban on post-season games, etc.

Ben Schwartzwalder of Syracuse and John Steigman and Robert Twitchell of Rutgers (by now the New Jersey State University) felt the Ivy represented de-emphasis (which it did) and lobbied their administrations against affiliation. The issue was controversial at Syracuse (which had a long time rivalry with Cornell), and Rutgers (which had played Princeton in the first football game in 1869 and Columbia in the fourth or fifth football game ever in 1871), with both schools being sensitive to their long-time institutional relationships with these about-to-be "Ivy" schools.

Army and Navy came up with a middle ground - they remained afffiliated with the Ivy in some sports (Eastern Intercollegiate Baseball League, Eastern Intercollegiate Swimming League and others) but became independents in Football, Basketball and other sports. Even as an Independent, however, Army and Navy continued to play the Ivies in nearly all sports.

Lafayette, by now a member of the "Middle Three" with Rutgers and Lehigh, and also a member of the Middle Atlantic Conference, also continued to play the Ivies in all sports and, though it did not join the Ivy League, adopted many of its core policies for its own athletic program.

Colgate's athletic director, Eppie Barnes, aggressively sought inclusion in the Ivy League and was supported by Brown and Cornell (which schools, incidentially, had also supported Syracuse for membership). At that time, Colgate had been a annual and traditional rival of Brown and Cornell, frequently played Princeton and Yale, periodically played Columbia, had an old but infrequently-played series with Dartmouth had infrequently played and never played Pennsylvania. To get a better view of the closeness of Colgate's relationship with the "Ivy Group" and potential members of the subsequent Ivy League, consider that on a frequent or annual basis, Colgate played Army, Syracuse, Lafayette and Rutgers.

Colgate formally adopted, in toto, the Ivy League's proposed guidelines as a gesture of support for same (N.B. except for Spring Practice, until its 2005 addition of athletic scholarships, Colgate never changed this approach, either) Several newspaper accounts of the early 1950's mentioned Colgate as a potential Ivy member instead of Pennsylvania.

In the end, however, the Ivy in 1954 settled on its "Ancient Eight". The Ivies, however, continued to play Rutgers (until 1981), Colgate and Lafayette from the old "Ivy Group" schools because these schools continued to follow, either loosely or loyally, some or all of the Ivy philosophy. In part, as a result of this, Colgate is the Ivy League's most-played non-conference opponent in football.

Very interesting. Thank you.

[Go...gate]

Hold on, now.

This conversation started when someone mocked the idea of HC or Colgate joining the NESCAC. I suggested that those schools joining the NESCAC wouldn't be such a bad thing, since that's the kind of school those two schools aspire to be and there would be a limited downside among alumni b/c a very small proportion of the folks could/would parse the difference between non-scholarship 1-AA and a good D-III league.

Now, if you want to apply that reasoning to Georgetown: if we had the opportunity to join the Ivy League, which is where we academically and in terms of status aspire to be, I would 100% support doing it. Heck, if the Ivy League called and said we want you to DROP the football program altogether and have your hugely profitable and famous basketball program join our cruddy league, I'd still say that we should do it without a second thought.

Capice?

I mocked it because there are few, if any, Colgate students or alumni that see the NESCAC as peer schools. This is not to say that Williams or Amherst or some other NESCAC's are not ranked higher than we are - some certainly are - but we do not see that group of schools as similarly situated to Colgate. If there is any sentiment in that regard, it is held by a few faculty and administrators at Colgate who would like this but who would also like athletics to be de-emphasized as it has been at Swarthmore and, to some degree, Dartmouth. It would not surprise me if our Holy Cross brethren had a similar point of view about their own students and alumni.

[Go...gate]

Very interesting. Thank you.

I realize that I'm showing my age, but thought I would offer that for the good of the order.

[Franks Tanks]

This may go on a bit, and I may have to supplement it, but here goes.

Historically, Colgate has had the closest relationship with the Ivy, especially Brown (another Baptist seminary), officials of which were helpful (including financially) to Colgate in its early history. Indeed, Colgate and Brown shared certain senior faculty and administrators who worked for both institutions in the 19th and early 20th centuries. (Colgate had a Divinity School on campus at one time, which eventually became independent and moved to Rochester, NY)

In the 1920's, 30's and '40's, Colgate was routinely lumped in among the so-called "Ivy Group" schools, a term started by the sportswriter Caswell Adams and probably embellished by others such as Grantland Rice, Red Smith and others. This "Ivy Group" included the present Ivy League (sometimes absent Pennsylvania) along with Army, Navy, Rutgers (then a private school), Lafayette (though, inexplicably, not Lehigh), Colgate and Syracuse.

As the 50's beckoned and and the Ivy League came into being (1954 - first games in 1956), some of the old relationships broke down. Several of the schools did not want to follow the conference model that the Ivy espoused - no Spring Practice, no athletic scholarships, Presidential control, a ban on post-season games, etc.

Ben Schwartzwalder of Syracuse and John Steigman and Robert Twitchell of Rutgers (by now the New Jersey State University) felt the Ivy represented de-emphasis (which it did) and lobbied their administrations against affiliation. The issue was controversial at Syracuse (which had a long time rivalry with Cornell), and Rutgers (which had played Princeton in the first football game in 1869 and Columbia in the fourth or fifth football game ever in 1871), with both schools being sensitive to their long-time institutional relationships with these about-to-be "Ivy" schools.

Army and Navy came up with a middle ground - they remained afffiliated with the Ivy in some sports (Eastern Intercollegiate Baseball League, Eastern Intercollegiate Swimming League and others) but became independents in Football, Basketball and other sports. Even as an Independent, however, Army and Navy continued to play the Ivies in nearly all sports.

Lafayette, by now a member of the "Middle Three" with Rutgers and Lehigh, and also a member of the Middle Atlantic Conference, also continued to play the Ivies in all sports and, though it did not join the Ivy League, adopted many of its core policies for its own athletic program.

Colgate's athletic director, Eppie Barnes, aggressively sought inclusion in the Ivy League and was supported by Brown and Cornell (which schools, incidentially, had also supported Syracuse for membership). At that time, Colgate had been a annual and traditional rival of Brown and Cornell, frequently played Princeton and Yale, periodically played Columbia, had an old but infrequently-played series with Dartmouth had infrequently played and never played Pennsylvania. To get a better view of the closeness of Colgate's relationship with the "Ivy Group" and potential members of the subsequent Ivy League, consider that on a frequent or annual basis, Colgate played Army, Syracuse, Lafayette and Rutgers.

Colgate formally adopted, in toto, the Ivy League's proposed guidelines as a gesture of support for same (N.B. except for Spring Practice, until its 2005 addition of athletic scholarships, Colgate never changed this approach, either) Several newspaper accounts of the early 1950's mentioned Colgate as a potential Ivy member instead of Pennsylvania.

In the end, however, the Ivy in 1954 settled on its "Ancient Eight". The Ivies, however, continued to play Rutgers (until 1981), Colgate and Lafayette from the old "Ivy Group" schools because these schools continued to follow, either loosely or loyally, some or all of the Ivy philosophy. In part, as a result of this, Colgate is the Ivy League's most-played non-conference opponent in football.

Awesome post Gate. I found the below that ties into your point


"Sports of the Times", The New York Times, December 4, 1936, p. 36. "There will now be a little test of the "the power of the press" in intercollegiate circles since the student editors at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, Dartmouth and Penn are coming out in a group for the formation of an Ivy League in football. The idea isn't new.... It would be well for the proponents of the Ivy League to make it clear (to themselves especially) that the proposed group would be inclusive but not "exclusive" as this term is used with a slight up-tilting of the tip of the nose." He recommended the consideration of "plenty of institutions covered with home-grown ivy that are not included in the proposed group. [such as ] Army and Navy and Georgetown and Fordham and Syracuse and Brown and Pitt, just to offer a few examples that come to mind" and noted that "Pitt and Georgetown and Brown and Bowdoin and Rutgers were old when Cornell was shining new, and Fordham and Holy Cross had some building draped in ivy before the plaster was dry in the walls that now tower high about Cayuga's waters."

[colorless raider]

Awesome post Gate. I found the below that ties into your point


"Sports of the Times", The New York Times, December 4, 1936, p. 36. "There will now be a little test of the "the power of the press" in intercollegiate circles since the student editors at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, Dartmouth and Penn are coming out in a group for the formation of an Ivy League in football. The idea isn't new.... It would be well for the proponents of the Ivy League to make it clear (to themselves especially) that the proposed group would be inclusive but not "exclusive" as this term is used with a slight up-tilting of the tip of the nose." He recommended the consideration of "plenty of institutions covered with home-grown ivy that are not included in the proposed group. [such as ] Army and Navy and Georgetown and Fordham and Syracuse and Brown and Pitt, just to offer a few examples that come to mind" and noted that "Pitt and Georgetown and Brown and Bowdoin and Rutgers were old when Cornell was shining new, and Fordham and Holy Cross had some building draped in ivy before the plaster was dry in the walls that now tower high about Cayuga's waters."

I agree that Gate Raider's post was the best description of Colgate's flirtation with the Ivy League. GR, send it to the Maroon News to see if they would publish it. Also Franks Tanks thanks for your follow up.

[LeopardFan04]

Good posts Go...gate and FT!

[Go...gate]

Awesome post Gate. I found the below that ties into your point


"Sports of the Times", The New York Times, December 4, 1936, p. 36. "There will now be a little test of the "the power of the press" in intercollegiate circles since the student editors at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Cornell, Columbia, Dartmouth and Penn are coming out in a group for the formation of an Ivy League in football. The idea isn't new.... It would be well for the proponents of the Ivy League to make it clear (to themselves especially) that the proposed group would be inclusive but not "exclusive" as this term is used with a slight up-tilting of the tip of the nose." He recommended the consideration of "plenty of institutions covered with home-grown ivy that are not included in the proposed group. [such as ] Army and Navy and Georgetown and Fordham and Syracuse and Brown and Pitt, just to offer a few examples that come to mind" and noted that "Pitt and Georgetown and Brown and Bowdoin and Rutgers were old when Cornell was shining new, and Fordham and Holy Cross had some building draped in ivy before the plaster was dry in the walls that now tower high about Cayuga's waters."

Nice post, including some glory that NESCAC fans (note Bowdoin) can revel in.

[Seawolf97]

Very informative posts! Really interesting from a historic perspective.

[RichH2]

Fascinating historical perspective on the different paths schools took to reach their current status. I doubt that ithas much relevance on what Gate will do with a new Pres.
I am hopeful that all of the PL schools will expand schollies to include football.

[Bull Fan]

Fascinating thread, excellent posts.