Should cheerleaders count for Title IX?

[danefan]

I found this very interesting. With the recent Wisconsin case ruling that cheerleading was a contact sport (and thus subject to assumption of risk principles of liability defense), here is an interesting blog discussing whether cheerleading should count for Title IX purposes. Right now it does not, however, it has not been tried or challenged.

I think it should. Scholarships are given to women for cheerleading (mostly for competition teams). Why shouldn't they count against football scholarships given to men?

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/sports_and_the_law_making_chee.php#more

(Mods - feel free to move this - I though it was appropriate in the FCS board becuase Title IX is a major issue for FCS schools wishing to increase football scholarships, etc...)

[OL FU]

Cheerleaders should count for anything they want to count forxthumbsupx

[JMU Newbill]

JMU had to eliminate a number of sports (mens and womens) a few years ago due to Title IX. Personally, I think its a load of crap.

[danefan]

JMU had to eliminate a number of sports (mens and womens) a few years ago due to Title IX. Personally, I think its a load of crap.

If cheerleaders counted, it may have offset the loss of a the men's cross-country team (relatively close spending for most schools).

[Ivytalk]

I found this very interesting. With the recent Wisconsin case ruling that cheerleading was a contact sport (and thus subject to assumption of risk principles of liability defense), here is an interesting blog discussing whether cheerleading should count for Title IX purposes. Right now it does not, however, it has not been tried or challenged.

I think it should. Scholarships are given to women for cheerleading (mostly for competition teams). Why shouldn't they count against football scholarships given to men?

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/sports_and_the_law_making_chee.php#more

(Mods - feel free to move this - I though it was appropriate in the FCS board becuase Title IX is a major issue for FCS schools wishing to increase football scholarships, etc...)

Great thought, danefan! I second this concept. Cheerleaders are pretty good athletes anyway, so why shouldn't their schollies count?

[BDKJMU]

If cheerleaders counted, it may have offset the loss of a the men's cross-country team (relatively close spending for most schools).

Or wrestling. The mens' sport that has probably been hurt the most by Title IX.

[danefan]

Great thought, danefan! I second this concept. Cheerleaders are pretty good athletes anyway, so why shouldn't their schollies count?

I can't take any credit for. I thought it was a great idea as well.

Unfortunately I think that the only way it will ever get tested is if some school violates Title IX and uses the cheerleading aspect as a defense.

Other than that I don't see any school putting their neck out there.

Perhaps there is some sort of advanced ruling procedure with the NCAA? But even then, if it were denied, what appellate recourse would the school which applies have?

[BDKJMU]

Try telling a cheerleader she's not an "athlete' and cheerleading isn't a "sport". Bet you'd get an earfull. xnodx

[gr8ness97]

I agree. They travel with the team as well...I say let them count.

[BDKJMU]

I've always said the 2 biggest problems with Title IX is that they don't let cheerleading be counted, and football shouldn't be counted because there is no female eqivalent sport in terms of roster #s.

cheerleading male/female (predominantly female)
cross Country male/female
volleyball male/female
swimming male/female
gymnastics male/female
basketball male/female
baseball/softball
lacrosse male/female
golf male/female
tennis male/female
track male/female
soccer male/female
have female only field hockey & male only wrestling
football........

[JMU Newbill]

I've always said the 2 biggest problems with Title IX is that they don't let cheerleading be counted, and football shouldn't be counted because there is no female eqivalent sport in terms of roster #s.

cheerleading male/female (predominantly female)
cross Country male/female
volleyball male/female
swimming male/female
gymnastics male/female
basketball male/female
baseball/softball
lacrosse male/female
golf male/female
tennis male/female
track male/female
soccer male/female
have female only field hockey & male only wrestling
football........

Field hockey.... although no where equal in cost.... has no male equivalent. Some could argue it balances out with football in some senses though.

[gophoenix]

I personally don't think football should count for Title IX at all since it is a coed sport and has equal opportunities for both men and women. Colorado and Jax State proved this.

[BDKJMU]

Field hockey.... although no where equal in cost.... has no male equivalent. Some could argue it balances out with football in some senses though.

Check my post: I listed the 15 or so most common sports. I said you have female only field hockey & male only wrestling to balance each other out.

Course I know you have male & female ice hockey at some northern schools, male & female skiing at some northern nountain schools, male & female rodeo at some western schools, etc, etc.

[MplsBison]

I found this very interesting. With the recent Wisconsin case ruling that cheerleading was a contact sport (and thus subject to assumption of risk principles of liability defense), here is an interesting blog discussing whether cheerleading should count for Title IX purposes. Right now it does not, however, it has not been tried or challenged.

I think it should. Scholarships are given to women for cheerleading (mostly for competition teams). Why shouldn't they count against football scholarships given to men?

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/02/sports_and_the_law_making_chee.php#more

(Mods - feel free to move this - I though it was appropriate in the FCS board becuase Title IX is a major issue for FCS schools wishing to increase football scholarships, etc...)


Not that I disagree with you, but can you imagine the feminist reaction to what basically amounts to boiling title IX down to "men get to play football and we'll create equal opportunities for women...as cheerleaders"? LOL!

[MplsBison]

My vote is that any sport that does not have an established, cost/function equivalent sport for men/women pairs should not count against title IX.

So that would be football, at least and maybe baseball/softball and wrestling.


Just about every other sport you could argue that it would be minimum cost and no duplicate facilities needed to start the opposite gender equivalent sport.

[danefan]

Not that I disagree with you, but can you imagine the feminist reaction to what basically amounts to boiling title IX down to "men get to play football and we'll create equal opportunities for women...as cheerleaders"? LOL!

Yes, but the feminist reaction is rooted in the old stereotype of a cheerleader (which is still personified by the USC Song Girls). It would be the feminists who would be perpetuating that stereotype and the NCAA would be accepting the fact that cheerleaders are very athletic and the sport is an athletic endeavor.

Most Division I cheerleading squads don't fit the old mold anymore. The modern cheerleading squad is a pommel horse and uneven bar away from being a gymnastics team, which, BTW, counts for Title IX purposes.

Heck, even USC has two teams - the Song Girls and the Spirit team which competes in NCAA cheer competitions.

[Ivytalk]

Try telling a cheerleader she's not an "athlete' and cheerleading isn't a "sport". Bet you'd get an earfull. xnodx

I'd happily settle for a "face-full"!:Dxrotatehx

[danefan]

I'd happily settle for a "face-full"!:Dxrotatehx


HEYOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ZING! xlolxxthumbsupx

[MplsBison]

Yes, but the feminist reaction is rooted in the old stereotype of a cheerleader (which is still personified by the USC Song Girls). It would be the feminists who would be perpetuating that stereotype and the NCAA would be accepting the fact that cheerleaders are very athletic and the sport is an athletic endeavor.

Most Division I cheerleading squads don't fit the old mold anymore. The modern cheerleading squad is a pommel horse and uneven bar away from being a gymnastics team, which, BTW, counts for Title IX purposes.

Heck, even USC has two teams - the Song Girls and the Spirit team which competes in NCAA cheer competitions.

Right.

And I guess technically title IX's goal was to create equal scholarship opportunities.


I'd still rather see football exempt from having to create equal scholarship opportunities when there clearly are no sports for women that accomplish this.

[BEAR]

Hock-ey? xconfusedx What's that? xconfusedx Do any of you other southern region team fans know what hock-ey is?..not too much call for that sport in the southern region. Too dang hot. xthumbsupx

.....now football.........xbeerchugx

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/CLT/CLT002/f1862.jpg

Cheerleading should only count as much as any other student group or RSO. I.E. The Bear Den at UCA has some wild athletic fanatics that put on a show every game and even though they don't flip 10 feet in the air, their physical efforts surpass the cheerleaders that stand around, scream with a megaphone and flip once every 15 minutes. Which is I guess why the cheerleaders run laps after the game. xnonono2x

[Seven Would Be Nice]

Hock-ey? xconfusedx What's that? xconfusedx Do any of you other southern region team fans know what hock-ey is?..not too much call for that sport in the southern region. Too dang hot. xthumbsupx

.....now football.........xbeerchugx



What about Men's LaCrosse? Isn't that the male counterpart to womens field hockey? Do they play womens lacrosse at the college level? It's so boring to watch I cant imagine why they would...

[Seven Would Be Nice]

Cheerleaders should count for anything they want to count forxthumbsupx

The real question is... can cheerleaders count? :D

[henfan]

Do they play womens lacrosse at the college level?

Wow.

[89Hen]

I think it should. Scholarships are given to women for cheerleading (mostly for competition teams). Why shouldn't they count against football scholarships given to men?
Does the NCAA sponsor the competitions? If not, then no. xpeacex

[UAalum72]

Hock-ey? xconfusedx What's that? xconfusedx Do any of you other southern region team fans know what hock-ey is?..not too much call for that sport in the southern region. Too dang hot. xthumbsupx


The Stanley Cup was won by Tampa in 2004 and by Carolina a year later.

[Purple Pride]

Hock-ey? xconfusedx What's that? xconfusedx Do any of you other southern region team fans know what hock-ey is?..not too much call for that sport in the southern region. Too dang hot. xthumbsupx

.....now football.........xbeerchugx

http://www.fotosearch.com/bthumb/CLT/CLT002/f1862.jpg

Cheerleading should only count as much as any other student group or RSO. I.E. The Bear Den at UCA has some wild athletic fanatics that put on a show every game and even though they don't flip 10 feet in the air, their physical efforts surpass the cheerleaders that stand around, scream with a megaphone and flip once every 15 minutes. Which is I guess why the cheerleaders run laps after the game. xnonono2x
I've got to chime in here. I was transplanted to St. Louis for a while and got to where I really liked Hockey. We don't know what we're missing down here in the South. When it's 105 in the shade, a hockey rink is a pretty "cool" place to be. xnodx

I was amazed at how big hockey players really are.

As for our cheerleaders......You nailed it. Maybe they should make 'em run laps during the game. xwhistlex

[citdog]

just thinking about our cheerleaders makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit

[danefan]

just thinking about our cheerleaders makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit

There are many ways this statement can be interpretted. xeyebrowx

[UMass922]

Do they play womens lacrosse at the college level?

Yes. Northwestern has won four straight national championships.

[Seven Would Be Nice]

Yes. Northwestern has won four straight national championships.

Sorry, I don't keep up with LaCrosse, or woman's sports in general that much. It's not a huge deal in the south like it is up north.

[UMass922]

Sorry, I don't keep up with LaCrosse, or woman's sports in general that much. It's not a huge deal in the south like it is up north.

Not a big deal; I don't keep up with lax much, either. I didn't know about Northwestern's success until I moved here a few weeks ago. xthumbsupx

[Jackman]

I've always said the 2 biggest problems with Title IX is that they don't let cheerleading be counted, and football shouldn't be counted because there is no female eqivalent sport in terms of roster #s.

cheerleading male/female (predominantly female)
cross Country male/female
volleyball male/female
swimming male/female
gymnastics male/female
basketball male/female
baseball/softball
lacrosse male/female
golf male/female
tennis male/female
track male/female
soccer male/female
have female only field hockey & male only wrestling
football........

Women's Rowing is the de facto pairing with football, since it's the only women's sport that allows a similar roster size, and the NCAA doesn't sponsor men's rowing.

Another option would be Women's Rugby, which is an "emerging sport" on the NCAA website, which I guess means it's in a probationary period to be added as a full sport. There is no men's rugby slated to be added as an equivalent. Which is too bad, since it's the only worthwhile sport that UMass doesn't have (as varsity). I need something else to watch in spring, the men's lacrosse season is too short.

Isn't cheerleading counted on the male/mixed gender side of the requirements? During the discussion of NAU possibly dropping football, I noticed that they only have 5 men's sports unless you count the mixed cheerleading team (which is listed among the other sports on their athletic website). The minimum number of men's/mixed sports you need to have to be in Division I is 6, out of a minimum 14 total sports (NAU has 13 w/o cheerleading).

[adrianb]

Right.

And I guess technically title IX's goal was to create equal scholarship opportunities.


I'd still rather see football exempt from having to create equal scholarship opportunities when there clearly are no sports for women that accomplish this.

Not only that but football is a revenue producing sport. In certain cases funds itself and athletic depts. Not all but some. Requiring a certain number of scholarships for women to equal the amount of football scholarship is completely unfair because there are no sports for women that produce the same type of income. You could argue softball, soccer or basketball but since these sports have equivalents they cancel each other out.

[bandl]

just thinking about our cheerleaders makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit

Then don't think about women the skirts, think about the men in uniforms xsmiley_wix

[andy7171]

What about Men's LaCrosse? Isn't that the male counterpart to womens field hockey? Do they play womens lacrosse at the college level? It's so boring to watch I cant imagine why they would...

If lacrosse is boring, then what is baseball/softball?

xrolleyesx

[henfan]

Then don't think about women the skirts, think about the men in uniforms xsmiley_wix


You mean like this man?
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/files/Cheerleader.jpg

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Try telling a cheerleader she's not an "athlete' and cheerleading isn't a "sport". Bet you'd get an earfull. xnodx

I've seen strippers do more athletic things that cheerleaders, but you'll find very few claim they are performing a "sport".

[CollegeSportsInfo]

I'd rather see athletic scholarships dropped for all sports that don't generate the revenues to support themselves. That would resolve the Title IX issue.

The reasons schools exist are to educate. So in theory, scholarships for those who have earned it through strong academics should be the only ones given.

And I can see the argument of college sports as a business for each university. Makes sense since they generate revenue. Colleges just need to make a decision on what they are. If they are businesses (which they seem to be based on the $$$) then they need to be treated as such. If a company makes millions making Product A and loses money putting out Products B-Z, then why put all that money into them? It's a waste of tuition payers money as well as state tax payers.

[Big Dawg]

You mean like this man?
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/files/Cheerleader.jpg

xlolxxlolxxlolx

[bluehenbillk]

Do schools give scholarships to cheerleaders? I can't imagine many do.

[Reign of Terrier]

Try telling a cheerleader she's not an "athlete' and cheerleading isn't a "sport". Bet you'd get an earfull. xnodx

No try telling a cheerleader in the 4th to 8th grade range that football is harder than cheerleading you'll get the whole squad on you.

But seriously Cheerleading is a sport when they compete but not when they're say as a football game.

[danefan]

Do schools give scholarships to cheerleaders? I can't imagine many do.

they absolutely do. Delaware does too.



UD has one of the most high-profile cheerleading teams in the country. This team "pumps up the volume" at UD sporting events with its cheers, choreographed routines, and elite stunts. The team also competes in national spirit championships and has appeared on ESPN2, starred in promos for ABC-TV's "Monday Night Football," and traveled to China, among other highlights. Cheerleading scholarships are available. The program offers the opportunity to make lifelong friendships. Just ask the scores of cheerleading alumni who first met on the sidelines of a Delaware football game and still keep in touch!


http://www.udel.edu/aboutus/spirit.html

[GaSouthern]

to answer the OP,

Yes they should count! Title 9 is trash anyways. All things like this start out from a good cause and get warped into hurting tons of people.

[ASUG8]

Does this mean The Citadel gets extra schollies?

[ASUG8]

No try telling a cheerleader in the 4th to 8th grade range that football is harder than cheerleading you'll get the whole squad on you.
But seriously Cheerleading is a sport when they compete but not when they're say as a football game.


Not always a bad thing, grasshopper.....xlolx

[GaSouthern]

Does this mean The Citadel gets extra schollies?

They are too busy trying to keep citdog from touching all the new knobs to worry about that stuff.

[Reign of Terrier]

Not always a bad thing, grasshopper.....xlolx

you'd think so... but middle school girls are mean!

[Native]

Yes!

[Monarch History]

YES

[andy7171]

to answer the OP,

Yes they should count! Title 9 is trash anyways. All things like this start out from a good cause and get warped into hurting tons of people.

I would have agreed with you in 2000, but wiht 3 little girls...living in the lacrosse capital of the world...I've done a complete 180! :o

[ngineer]

Agreed. In fact statistics show that 'cheerleading' results in the highest percentage of orthopaedic injuries when compared with any other sport.

[andy7171]

Agreed. In fact statistics show that 'cheerleading' results in the highest percentage of orthopaedic injuries when compared with any other sport.

I could dole out some "orthapedic injuries" given the chance!:D

[Purple Pride]

I could dole out some "orthapedic injuries" given the chance!:D
I heard that. xthumbsupx