What should Fordham do?

[Fordham]

for those of you unaware, the Patriot League recently changed how the AI is calculated for PL schools while not moving on scholarships ... and this is something that is already having a huge impact on our recruiting and is accepted by most at Fordham as a quick ticket to oblivion for the future of our pogram. Whether or not it's intentional, the belief throughout the school (from students, alums and the administration) is that the PL wants to have Fordham as the Columbia of the PL (perennial bottom feeders).

So now we're caught between a rock and a hard place. An unwelcoming current home that we want to leave asap but seemingly no where to go. We also spend as much on the program as most of the top schools in FCS but are hamstrung in how we can use it.

So if we want to leave the PL, what are our options? I'd love to hear feedback here. Other than going independent, which I don't see as a very good option, I'm not sure we have any options other than watching the rapid demise of our program while staying in the PL.

*NEC? NEC guys - is this an option?

*Big South? Stony Brook guys - how has this worked out? Is it viewed by you all as a stop gap measure until more conference shake-ups occur? I have no idea if Fordham would ever go this route but just throwing it out there and interested if there's any chance the Big South would even be interested in having another Northern school in it.

*Any hope of a near term solution provided by current A10 members? I know this has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere but current A10 members UMASS, URI, Duquesne, Dayton, Richmond and Fordham would certainly form a nice all-sport base for a conference and then look to add a few more football only members.

Cant' really come up with anything that's THAT good (not that any of these are good or likely) but I will tell you that finding PL alternatives are definitely in alot of discussions occuring up in Rose Hill.

It really stinks too, since I was always one of the biggest advocates of the PL within active Fordham Gridiron alums. My apologies to all of my PL breathren who post here as well since your schools are all incredible ones to be affiliated with but unfortunately I've forever abandoned all hope that the PL leadership can ever represent Fordham interests ever again (even if they finally move on scholarships before we move).

[89Hen]

*NEC? NEC guys - is this an option?
Waiting to hear opinion on this. xeyebrowx

[danefan]

Us Albany guys are in sort of the same dilemna. No place to go.

What Fordham has though is a spot that allows them to fund the maximum they choose.

That is something you'll NEVER get in the NEC. It comes down to choosing between 40 unencumbered rides in the NEC (increasing to 40 2 a year from now on) or whatever "restricted" equivalencies you can give in the PL.

The Big South is something that is interesting, but there are some real downsides.

And I've come to the conclusion that short of an NCAA mandate, the A10 folks aren't ever going to leave the CAA.

Pretty crappy scenario for those wanting to step up their committment to football in the Northeast. The Big South could attempt to create a CAA mirror if they chose to, but who else could you get?

I could see Albany, Fordham, Stony Brook, Central Conn., and Monmouth being interested in full scholarship ball. But other than that is there anyone else?

[Franks Tanks]

for those of you unaware, the Patriot League recently changed how the AI is calculated for PL schools while not moving on scholarships ... and this is something that is already having a huge impact on our recruiting and is accepted by most at Fordham as a quick ticket to oblivion for the future of our pogram. Whether or not it's intentional, the belief throughout the school (from students, alums and the administration) is that the PL wants to have Fordham as the Columbia of the PL (perennial bottom feeders).

So now we're caught between a rock and a hard place. An unwelcoming current home that we want to leave asap but seemingly no where to go. We also spend as much on the program as most of the top schools in FCS but are hamstrung in how we can use it.

So if we want to leave the PL, what are our options? I'd love to hear feedback here. Other than going independent, which I don't see as a very good option, I'm not sure we have any options other than watching the rapid demise of our program while staying in the PL.

*NEC? NEC guys - is this an option?

*Big South? Stony Brook guys - how has this worked out? Is it viewed by you all as a stop gap measure until more conference shake-ups occur? I have no idea if Fordham would ever go this route but just throwing it out there and interested if there's any chance the Big South would even be interested in having another Northern school in it.

*Any hope of a near term solution provided by current A10 members? I know this has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere but current A10 members UMASS, URI, Duquesne, Dayton, Richmond and Fordham would certainly form a nice all-sport base for a conference and then look to add a few more football only members.

Cant' really come up with anything that's THAT good (not that any of these are good or likely) but I will tell you that finding PL alternatives are definitely in alot of discussions occuring up in Rose Hill.

It really stinks too, since I was always one of the biggest advocates of the PL within active Fordham Gridiron alums. My apologies to all of my PL breathren who post here as well since your schools are all incredible ones to be affiliated with but unfortunately I've forever abandoned all hope that the PL leadership can ever represent Fordham interests ever again (even if they finally move on scholarships before we move).


I still dont fully understand how the new AI requirements will be the death of Fordham football. The AI is calculated based on the standard of each individual school are they not? If so then why will Fordham be adversely affected? Please educate me if my understanding is poor.

[DFW HOYA]

Whether or not it's intentional, the belief throughout the school (from students, alums and the administration) is that the PL wants to have Fordham as the Columbia of the PL (perennial bottom feeders).


Columbia? Does that make Georgetown the Dartmouth of the league? xlolx

If so, Dartmouth's due for a big comeback.

[DetroitFlyer]

There is no AI in the PFL....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

for those of you unaware, the Patriot League recently changed how the AI is calculated for PL schools while not moving on scholarships ... and this is something that is already having a huge impact on our recruiting and is accepted by most at Fordham as a quick ticket to oblivion for the future of our program... unfortunately I've forever abandoned all hope that the PL leadership can ever represent Fordham interests ever again (even if they finally move on scholarships before we move).


I still dont fully understand how the new AI requirements will be the death of Fordham football. The AI is calculated based on the standard of each individual school are they not? If so then why will Fordham be adversely affected? Please educate me if my understanding is poor.

I echo Frank's Tank's sentiments here. To me, here are two possible bad outcomes for Fordham with the AI: that other schools are now getting athletes that were in Fordham recruiting territory, or that the AI is acting as a "reverse straitjacket", forcing Fordham to admit football players that have better grades than they did previously. This may or may not be the case, but I'd sure like to compare this year's and last year's recruiting classes to find out before I say something. I mean, recruits are still making campus visits! How can you say that recruiting sucks just yet? FWIW I haven't yet seen a slew of commits from Texas at other PL schools that had been going to Fordham, or other veins of talent that the Rams have tapped in the past. Not at Lehigh, anyway.

Furthermore, if Fordham ever made a motion that they would leave the Patriot League in order to pursue scholarship football, I'd be willing to bet that football scholarships would be in place the next day. Personally, I wouldn't give up on scholarships yet.

Finally, I can say that the AI was painfully crafted to make things fair for Fordham by the league office. To say that the PL office doesn't care about Fordham simply isn't true.

[LUHawker]

for those of you unaware, the Patriot League recently changed how the AI is calculated for PL schools while not moving on scholarships ... and this is something that is already having a huge impact on our recruiting and is accepted by most at Fordham as a quick ticket to oblivion for the future of our pogram. Whether or not it's intentional, the belief throughout the school (from students, alums and the administration) is that the PL wants to have Fordham as the Columbia of the PL (perennial bottom feeders).

So now we're caught between a rock and a hard place. An unwelcoming current home that we want to leave asap but seemingly no where to go. We also spend as much on the program as most of the top schools in FCS but are hamstrung in how we can use it.

So if we want to leave the PL, what are our options? I'd love to hear feedback here. Other than going independent, which I don't see as a very good option, I'm not sure we have any options other than watching the rapid demise of our program while staying in the PL.

*NEC? NEC guys - is this an option?

*Big South? Stony Brook guys - how has this worked out? Is it viewed by you all as a stop gap measure until more conference shake-ups occur? I have no idea if Fordham would ever go this route but just throwing it out there and interested if there's any chance the Big South would even be interested in having another Northern school in it.

*Any hope of a near term solution provided by current A10 members? I know this has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere but current A10 members UMASS, URI, Duquesne, Dayton, Richmond and Fordham would certainly form a nice all-sport base for a conference and then look to add a few more football only members.

Cant' really come up with anything that's THAT good (not that any of these are good or likely) but I will tell you that finding PL alternatives are definitely in alot of discussions occuring up in Rose Hill.

It really stinks too, since I was always one of the biggest advocates of the PL within active Fordham Gridiron alums. My apologies to all of my PL breathren who post here as well since your schools are all incredible ones to be affiliated with but unfortunately I've forever abandoned all hope that the PL leadership can ever represent Fordham interests ever again (even if they finally move on scholarships before we move).

Fordham,

You've commented on this elsewhere in less detail, but I'm not buying three things yet. 1) It strikes me as disingenuous to say that the PL, and I quote, "wants to have Fordham as the Columbia of the PL (perennial bottom feeders)". I think the PL has benefited especially from the years when Fordham has performed well and I don't see why the PL would tacitly try to push Fordham out. It's not like there are other worthy institutions of FU's caliber that are banging on the door to get in. 2) I fail to believe that homogenizing the AI system is a death knell for FU football. Some students will want to go to school in the Big Apple and not in Hamilton, Easton or Bethlehem, no matter what. It's a potentially big advantage. Also, I'll pose this as a question: Was Fordham able to recruit AND get commits from kids that LU or CU, etc. couldn't because of the AI? My limited recollection is that there wasn't much overlap between FU and other PL schools for recruiting. Maybe that was a function of the other PL schools not targeting those FU kids, but maybe it's because of many other factors like location and majors. 3) Lastly, I don't buy into the implied conspiracy theory that you, and especially the Georgetown fans, espouse that the PL leadership is only interested in seeing Lehigh, Lafayette and Colgate carry the torch. Arguably, Fordham and Gtown have more national presence than either of those three schools.

Overall, I'm sensing that you and other FU fans believe that your one and only recruiting advantage was marginalized. I think Fordham has other things that the program can use as recruiting tools that some of the others don't, like location, a large and well-regarded graduate school, local rivals, a top coach, etc.

Finally, you also seem to imply that the only way Fordham can be on more equal footing with its PL brethren is through the implementation of schollies, but I don't see where that would be an advantage over other PL schools. It would help vis-a-vis the the NEC, Ivies and CAA, but that should help the league as a whole, not intra-league.

I think Fordham is a nice fit with the PL and hope there isn't a movement away from the PL; rather I hope to see Fordham return to the league in hoops.

[OL FU]

The Big South could attempt to create a CAA mirror if they chose to, but who else could you get?



and call it the Little Big Eastxnodx

[danefan]

and call it the Little Big Eastxnodx

The Big America Football Conference.

North
Albany
Stony Brook
Fordham
Central Conn.
Monmouth
Marist (get them to sponsor schollys)

South
Liberty
Charleston Southern
Gardner Webb
VMI
Coastal Carolina
Presby

xeyebrowx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

and call it the Little Big Eastxnodx

You must have already known about the Little East existing! ;) :D

Little East Conference (http://www.littleeast.com/landing/index)

[Fordham]

I echo Frank's Tank's sentiments here. To me, here are two possible bad outcomes for Fordham with the AI: that other schools are now getting athletes that were in Fordham recruiting territory, or that the AI is acting as a "reverse straitjacket", forcing Fordham to admit football players that have better grades than they did previously. This may or may not be the case, but I'd sure like to compare this year's and last year's recruiting classes to find out before I say something. I mean, recruits are still making campus visits! How can you say that recruiting sucks just yet? FWIW I haven't yet seen a slew of commits from Texas at other PL schools that had been going to Fordham, or other veins of talent that the Rams have tapped in the past. Not at Lehigh, anyway. I read Frank's comments to mean that he thought AI was still calculated on a school-by-school basis which is actually not true starting this year as we've gone to the Ivy-model of a league-wide AI (and look to them to see what happened to the competitiveness of the Ivies once they implemented this). Frank, correct me if I'm wrong in understanding what you wrote.

Now I know there is a small amount of deviation that's allowed for Fordham but it's a drastic change for us. I was told yesterday that we were the only school out of the entire PL who's requirements went up. The previous AI was based on the philosophy that the football player at Fordham should be as representative as the rest of the Fordham student body, just as the players at Gtown should be representative of the students there, and so on. With this change, we now not only face the challenge of having the lowest ranked academic school but have the additional challenge of having our football players be closer on average to the rest of our student body than any other school in the PL.

*It's fine that you want to wait but I'm close enough to the program to know that this class is already shockingly different than previous ones. Almost every recruitng battle for us is going up against G-town, Colgate, etc. and Ivies and that's about it and we pretty much lose every time in that scenario based on a combination of academic prestige and facilities. While we may grab a few kids here and there it certainly is no recipe for success and when you look at how much we spend on the program do you really think you're own schools would accept these kind of changes without looking for alternatives?


Furthermore, if Fordham ever made a motion that they would leave the Patriot League in order to pursue scholarship football, I'd be willing to bet that football scholarships would be in place the next day. Personally, I wouldn't give up on scholarships yet. Perhaps ... but I personally don't care very much as it won't change the fact that the disadvantages I laid out above will remain, with or without scholarships. Keep in mind that I'm giving my own personal viewpoint here so you know what I'm telling you isn't coming directly from the university (but I do know that many/most I've spoken to share this opinion). Thus, our move out of the PL isn't a fait accompli but it certainly is something that the majority of active alums and administration people agree with for the first time since I've been active.


Finally, I can say that the AI was painfully crafted to make things fair for Fordham by the league office. To say that the PL office doesn't care about Fordham simply isn't true.
What painful decisions in Fordham's favor did they make that outweighs the fact that our football players have higher requirements vis-a-vis their fellow students than other PL schools?

[Franks Tanks]

I read Frank's comments to mean that he thought AI was still calculated on a school-by-school basis which is actually not true starting this year as we've gone to the Ivy-model of a league-wide AI (and look to them to see what happened to the competitiveness of the Ivies once they implemented this). Frank, correct me if I'm wrong in understanding what you wrote.

Now I know there is a small amount of deviation that's allowed for Fordham but it's a drastic change for us. I was told yesterday that we were the only school out of the entire PL who's requirements went up. The previous AI was based on the philosophy that the football player at Fordham should be as representative as the rest of the Fordham student body, just as the players at Gtown should be representative of the students there, and so on. With this change, we now not only face the challenge of having the lowest ranked academic school but have the additional challenge of having our football players be closer on average to the rest of our student body than any other school in the PL.

*It's fine that you want to wait but I'm close enough to the program to know that this class is already shockingly different than previous ones. Almost every recruitng battle for us is going up against G-town, Colgate, etc. and Ivies and that's about it and we pretty much lose every time in that scenario based on a combination of academic prestige and facilities. While we may grab a few kids here and there it certainly is no recipe for success and when you look at how much we spend on the program do you really think you're own schools would accept these kind of changes without looking for alternatives?

Perhaps ... but I personally don't care very much as it won't change the fact that the disadvantages I laid out above will remain, with or without scholarships. Keep in mind that I'm giving my own personal viewpoint here so you know what I'm telling you isn't coming directly from the university (but I do know that many/most I've spoken to share this opinion). Thus, our move out of the PL isn't a fait accompli but it certainly is something that the majority of active alums and administration people agree with for the first time since I've been active.


What painful decisions in Fordham's favor did they make that outweighs the fact that our football players have higher requirements vis-a-vis their fellow students than other PL schools?

Fordham-- you are correct. I was my understand that AI will be school specific, not league wide. It appears I am wrong on that point, and with that understanding you do make some valid points in regard to Fordham getting the shaft. Wouldnt it make more sense to have school specific AI, so recruits are still representaive of classes at their respective schools-- while still using the banding model.

[Libertine]

The Big America Football Conference.

North
Albany
Stony Brook
Fordham
Central Conn.
Monmouth
Marist (get them to sponsor schollys)

South
Liberty
Charleston Southern
Gardner Webb
VMI
Coastal Carolina
Presby

xeyebrowx

That actually looks pretty good to me. I'm stunned. Why have we not discussed this earlier?

[danefan]

That actually looks pretty good to me. I'm stunned. Why have we not discussed this earlier?

No real clue. Someone brought up the possbility of a CAA clone on teh Albany board.

I just threw these names out there.

Does anyone know how the Big 10 (11) conference schedule works?

The league would be very probable even with 10 or 11 members (sans Fordham and Marist).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That actually looks pretty good to me. I'm stunned. Why have we not discussed this earlier?


The Big America Football Conference.

North
Albany
Stony Brook
Fordham
Central Conn.
Monmouth
Marist (get them to sponsor schollys)

South
Liberty
Charleston Southern
Gardner Webb
VMI
Coastal Carolina
Presby

That last one is the stinker spoiling this party. xlolx

[danefan]

That last one is the stinker spoiling this party. xlolx

Even without Marist you have 11 teams. That works - heck the Big 10 does it.

I know just about nothing about the Big 10, but it appears they don't have divisions either. Just some rotating scheduling.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I read Frank's comments to mean that he thought AI was still calculated on a school-by-school basis which is actually not true starting this year as we've gone to the Ivy-model of a league-wide AI (and look to them to see what happened to the competitiveness of the Ivies once they implemented this). Frank, correct me if I'm wrong in understanding what you wrote.

That is correct. The computation of AI is now the same across all schools, with a league-wide floor.


Now I know there is a small amount of deviation that's allowed for Fordham but it's a drastic change for us. I was told yesterday that we were the only school out of the entire PL who's requirements went up. The previous AI was based on the philosophy that the football player at Fordham should be as representative as the rest of the Fordham student body, just as the players at Gtown should be representative of the students there, and so on. With this change, we now not only face the challenge of having the lowest ranked academic school but have the additional challenge of having our football players be closer on average to the rest of our student body than any other school in the PL.

The philosophy is the same as it was before, just the delivery is different. It was my impression that there was some room for Fordham to keep getting the same kids they have been getting in the past, but admittedly that may be wrong.


It's fine that you want to wait but I'm close enough to the program to know that this class is already shockingly different than previous ones. Almost every recruitng battle for us is going up against G-town, Colgate, etc. and Ivies and that's about it and we pretty much lose every time in that scenario based on a combination of academic prestige and facilities. While we may grab a few kids here and there it certainly is no recipe for success and when you look at how much we spend on the program do you really think you're own schools would accept these kind of changes without looking for alternatives?

What if those changes were the precursor to offering scholarships, though? I don't disagree with you that if the status quo reaches ahead without scholarships that Fordham may be adversely affected - but what if scholarships are coming?


Perhaps ... but I personally don't care very much as it won't change the fact that the disadvantages I laid out above will remain, with or without scholarships. Keep in mind that I'm giving my own personal viewpoint here so you know what I'm telling you isn't coming directly from the university (but I do know that many/most I've spoken to share this opinion). Thus, our move out of the PL isn't a fait accompli but it certainly is something that the majority of active alums and administration people agree with for the first time since I've been active.

I think if the Patriot League starts offering football scholarships, the pool of recruitable athletes will open up so much that it will be a markedly different process than it is today. I understand the frustration about the glacial pace towards scholarships, but I think that an AI-driven football league, with scholarships, could be something really special.

Think of it this way. You're a middle class kid who can get into Albany, Hofstra or Fordham. Fordham only pays a partial, while Albany and Hofstra offer full rides. That's a no brainer - Fordham goes off the table immediately. Now, the same kid gets full rides from all three schools - and Fordham is a subway ride from Manhattan. The pool of athletes rises astronomically - AI or no.

[Franks Tanks]

Even without Marist you have 11 teams. That works - heck the Big 10 does it.

I know just about nothing about the Big 10, but it appears they don't have divisions either. Just some rotating scheduling.

The Big 10 does have rotating scheduling. Each Big 10 team does not play 2 league schools each year. They also have 2 "rivalry" games which are played each year no matter what. For example Penn State gets Ohio State and Michigan State every year. Ohio State gets Michigan and Penn State. Michigan gets Ohio State and Michigan State. Michigan State gets Penn State and Michigan etc etc. to keep important games in place.

[Jackman]

*Any hope of a near term solution provided by current A10 members? I know this has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere but current A10 members UMASS, URI, Duquesne, Dayton, Richmond and Fordham would certainly form a nice all-sport base for a conference and then look to add a few more football only members.
Don't forget Charlotte. Ain't gonna happen any time soon if ever though, barring something unforeseen happening (like Delaware joining the A10).

[carney2]

If what you say is true (like others here, I'm not sure that it is), the powers that be in Ramland need to come out of the closet and declare that football scholarships are a must for continued Patriot League membership. (Someone needs to step to the plate and PUBLICLY beat Femovich and company about the head and shoulders with this issue or nothing will ever get done. Someone, please, be the Holy Cross of football on scholarships.)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Does anyone know what Towson's AI was when they were in the league? I'd be interested to hear a number.

My problem with the PL is their elitism attitude. I didn't go to a PL school by choice. I was accepted into Lehigh as a transfer following my soph year but ultimately I didn't believe the $$ difference was justified. My point being the PL can keep high academic standards without this stupid AI. The league can easily monitor all accepted athletes to makes sure nothing crazy is going on. Instead they choose to talk about this AI thingy they got and how it's going to maintain "the integrity of universities and the tradition of our athletics". WHAT? The AI is the BCS of the FCS. Get rid of the darn thing. Fordham should be allowed a wider band of recruits. It's a great school but it is easier to get into.

[MplsBison]

I would say that you try to form a league with the top NEC teams and the northern football affiliates of the CAA.


Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont (maybe one day?)
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Binghamton (maybe one day?)
Hartford (maybe one day?)
Central Conn.
Monmouth
Bryant

[danefan]

I would say that you try to form a league with the top NEC teams and the northern football affiliates of the CAA.


Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont (maybe one day?)
UMass
URI
Albany
Stony Brook
Binghamton (maybe one day?)
Hartford (maybe one day?)
Central Conn.
Monmouth
Bryant

This has been beaten to death already and it was a proposal in the most recent CAA meeting (not your teams specifically but a new Northern conference was discussed). New Hampshire, UMass and Maine have no interest and no reason to leave the CAA unless the NCAA or CAA forces them out somehow (unlikely).

[EmeryZach]

I like the CAA. I'm not leaving unless they kick me out. And then I will sue them when they try.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Ultimately i do believe another conference needs to be established in the Northeast/Mid Atlantic. There's simply too many teams that have joined 1AA/FCS football in the last 10-20 years. Not only have joined FCS but they've all shown the want to compete at the highest levels unlike the MAAC teams that dissolved. The lucky ones were about to jump in established leagues like the Yankee/A10/CAA while the rest ended up in the NEC, or MAAC.

The Way i would like to see it. Keep regional rivalries combine an awesome combo of academics with a blend of privates and state schools. The NEC would be kept.

"Yankee" North
Maine
UNH
Umass
Holy Cross
Northeastern
URI
Colgate

"Patriot"
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell
Fordham
Villanova
Delaware
Hofstra

"Freedom"
Georgetown
Richmond
Towson
James Madison
Richmond
William & Mary
ODU

[Franks Tanks]

Ultimately i do believe another conference needs to be established in the Northeast/Mid Atlantic. There's simply too many teams that have joined 1AA/FCS football in the last 10-20 years. Not only have joined FCS but they've all shown the want to compete at the highest levels unlike the MAAC teams that dissolved. The lucky ones were about to jump in established leagues like the Yankee/A10/CAA while the rest ended up in the NEC, or MAAC.

The Way i would like to see it. Keep regional rivalries combine an awesome combo of academics with a blend of privates and state schools. The NEC would be kept.

"Yankee" North
Maine
UNH
Umass
Holy Cross
Northeastern
URI
Colgate

"Patriot"
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell
Fordham
Villanova
Delaware
Hofstra

"Freedom"
Georgetown
Richmond
Towson
James Madison
Richmond
William & Mary
ODU


Interesting concept. I would switch Fordham and Colgate however. Fordham plays B-Ball with your Yankee schools and also can be with their catholic buddy HC. I think Colgate still has more in common with the current PL schools.

[CRAZY_DANE]

Ultimately i do believe another conference needs to be established in the Northeast/Mid Atlantic. There's simply too many teams that have joined 1AA/FCS football in the last 10-20 years. Not only have joined FCS but they've all shown the want to compete at the highest levels unlike the MAAC teams that dissolved. The lucky ones were about to jump in established leagues like the Yankee/A10/CAA while the rest ended up in the NEC, or MAAC.

The Way i would like to see it. Keep regional rivalries combine an awesome combo of academics with a blend of privates and state schools. The NEC would be kept.

"Yankee" North
Maine
UNH
Umass
Holy Cross
Northeastern
URI
Colgate

"Patriot"
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell
Fordham
Villanova
Delaware
Hofstra

"Freedom"
Georgetown
Richmond
Towson
James Madison
Richmond
William & Mary
ODU

I agree. There are a lot of colleges/universities that have moved into FCS with nowhere to go. We need another full schollie FCS conference. The Northeast is especially hit hard.

My area where I disagree is that Albany needs to be part of any design. UA has surpassed every expectation since going D1. Keep in mind that we are limited on what we can do based on the constraints of the NEC. We want in.

[Fordham]

The philosophy is the same as it was before, just the delivery is different. It was my impression that there was some room for Fordham to keep getting the same kids they have been getting in the past, but admittedly that may be wrong.

How can you say that the philosophy is the same? Previously it was as I stated above - the players from a school should be as representative of the students at that school and that should be the case for every PL institution.

Now I certainly understand why the PL is changing the AI but it's certainly not based on THAT philosophy. It's moreso based on the philosophy that the top academically ranked PL schools are so high now that it's ridiculously difficult to find football players who they can go after (and then good luck getting them to NOT go to an Ivy).

That's why I've been saying all along that there's no perfect or 'fairer' system ... you just have to choose your inequities. In this case, we're on the short end of that decision and rather than wait for the same thing that occured with the Ivies to happen to us, I think we should move. I think we should also finally be able to go out and spend the $$ as we see fit.


What if those changes were the precursor to offering scholarships, though? I don't disagree with you that if the status quo reaches ahead without scholarships that Fordham may be adversely affected - but what if scholarships are coming?

Perhaps that would matter for our administration but, for me, I could care less and have told them as much as I can that we need to get out of the PL at all costs and fast. Implement scholarships and 'yes' you have an improvement but what I view as an inequity still remains. We'll finally be able to recruit better against the rest of FCS if they get implemented but the fact will remain that a Fordham football player will have to be more representative of his peers than all of our PL competition's players will have to be.


I think if the Patriot League starts offering football scholarships, the pool of recruitable athletes will open up so much that it will be a markedly different process than it is today. I understand the frustration about the glacial pace towards scholarships, but I think that an AI-driven football league, with scholarships, could be something really special.

Think of it this way. You're a middle class kid who can get into Albany, Hofstra or Fordham. Fordham only pays a partial, while Albany and Hofstra offer full rides. That's a no brainer - Fordham goes off the table immediately. Now, the same kid gets full rides from all three schools - and Fordham is a subway ride from Manhattan. The pool of athletes rises astronomically - AI or no.
Again, it's better than not having scholarships but fundamentally broken for Fordham overall. I see your scenario above being extremely rare b/c either a) that kid won't meet the league wide AI so none of us can go after him or b) any kid that has Hofstra and Albany on his short list who can also meet Fordham's AI minimum will automatically have any of the other PL schools on his short list as well.

[Fordham]

If what you say is true (like others here, I'm not sure that it is), the powers that be in Ramland need to come out of the closet and declare that football scholarships are a must for continued Patriot League membership. (Someone needs to step to the plate and PUBLICLY beat Femovich and company about the head and shoulders with this issue or nothing will ever get done. Someone, please, be the Holy Cross of football on scholarships.)
Why is it incumbent upon us to do anything but leave and leave fast? The part I bolded above is stated as though we have an obligation to move on this. Why would that ever be the case?

The PL had an obligation to pursue excellence and they've sat on their collective hands for years now and seriously done nothingas it relates to football. Now, instead of moving on scholarships after our subdivision competitiveness has gone in the crapper and so many other schools and conferences have passed us by, the finally make a big decision and it's 100% focused on inter-league competitiveness.

[MplsBison]

I like the CAA. I'm not leaving unless they kick me out. And then I will sue them when they try.

What would be the grounds for the lawsuit?

You won't invite him to your birthday part for kicking you out of his league? xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Interesting concept. I would switch Fordham and Colgate however. Fordham plays B-Ball with your Yankee schools and also can be with their catholic buddy HC. I think Colgate still has more in common with the current PL schools.

See i would keep Fordham. This gives Hofstra a natural rival and keeps the conference's geography inline. Plus Colgate would maintain their biggest rival in Holy Cross. You'd have to make some sacrafices. I did it so all three divisions are distributed equally geographically, competitively, and academically as well as keeping rivalries.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How can you say that the philosophy is the same? Previously it was as I stated above - the players from a school should be as representative of the students at that school and that should be the case for every PL institution.

That's the whole purpose of the AI. For all schools. True, the AI was changed not for Fordham's sake but for Lehigh/Lafayette/Colgate's sakes (and - let's not forget - men's basketball for all the participating schools). But that should be separated from the while Ivy/PL "philosophy" of the AI and how it ensures that athletes are representative of the whole class.

Reforming the AI does attempt to rectify an injustice the other direction. Lehigh used to admit kids with a 3.0 average and they got along fine. But now the class average is a 3.6 and kids that were getting 3.0's and succeeding all of a sudden saw themselves shut out. I guess Fordham was basically shielded from all of this.


That's why I've been saying all along that there's no perfect or 'fairer' system ... you just have to choose your inequities. In this case, we're on the short end of that decision and rather than wait for the same thing that occured with the Ivies to happen to us, I think we should move. I think we should also finally be able to go out and spend the $$ as we see fit.

If the PL has scholarships in football, how can you say that the same thing will happen? There will be a fundamental difference between the Ivies and the PL in that case.


Perhaps that would matter for our administration but, for me, I could care less and have told them as much as I can that we need to get out of the PL at all costs and fast. Implement scholarships and 'yes' you have an improvement but what I view as an inequity still remains. We'll finally be able to recruit better against the rest of FCS if they get implemented but the fact will remain that a Fordham football player will have to be more representative of his peers than all of our PL competition's players will have to be.

Again, I don't see evidence of this yet - that the "more stringent" AI means that Fordham can no longer get players that allow them to compete for a PL title, or that the other six teams are now poaching Fordham's best potential players.

And when you say that Fordham football players will need to be "more representative" of the class, that's not true. It's a binary issue: either you're representative or you're not. You're not "more" or "less". It either is or it isn't. The old AND new AI was put in place expressedly to make sure classes were representative.

It seems to me that your problem is that Fordham used to be able to recruit athletes that are now considered to be below the hard AI floor of the Patriot League. Is the floor is above the average of your incoming class? That's the only way you could be "reverse straitjacketed".

[bostonspider]

What would be the grounds for the lawsuit?

You won't invite him to your birthday part for kicking you out of his league? xlolxxlolxxlolxxlolx


You better believe there would be grounds for a lawsuit. That is why the CAA Football League is a separate corporate entity than the CAA. When all 12 schools were joined as a league, you must believe that contracts were signed that are difficult to break.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why is it incumbent upon us to do anything but leave and leave fast? The part I bolded above is stated as though we have an obligation to move on this. Why would that ever be the case?

The PL had an obligation to pursue excellence and they've sat on their collective hands for years now and seriously done nothing as it relates to football. Now, instead of moving on scholarships after our subdivision competitiveness has gone in the crapper and so many other schools and conferences have passed us by, the finally make a big decision and it's 100% focused on inter-league competitiveness.

You make some extremely valid points. You are right you have no obligation to move on it - especially as an affiliate. But we're hoping that you're the Holy Cross of PL football: when HC threatened to leave the PL in basketball in the 90s, it was the change that made scholarships happen in every sport but football.

I really, really hope it won't take a Fordham threat to leave to cause saner heads to prevail here.

[TheValleyRaider]

I think Fordham is correct in saying that FU shouldn't be relied upon to make the move to scholarships

Given that
1-they're only an affiliate of the League as a whole
and
2-they already left the League once over scholarships
I could see such a move blowing up in their faces in a big way. Rather, it'd have to be one of the full-member schools more interested in scholarships (Colgate or Lafayette, as the rumors suggest?) that would have a threat taken seriously

xtwocentsx

[MplsBison]

You better believe there would be grounds for a lawsuit. That is why the CAA Football League is a separate corporate entity than the CAA. When all 12 schools were joined as a league, you must believe that contracts were signed that are difficult to break.

I'm sure there are contracts.

I find it hard to believe that a conference would sign a contract that forbids it from dismissing a football affiliate.

[Go...gate]

I still dont fully understand how the new AI requirements will be the death of Fordham football. The AI is calculated based on the standard of each individual school are they not? If so then why will Fordham be adversely affected? Please educate me if my understanding is poor.


Agreed. Don't understand and would appreciate an explanation.

[Seawolf97]

The Big America Football Conference.

North
Albany
Stony Brook
Fordham
Central Conn.
Monmouth
Marist (get them to sponsor schollys)

South
Liberty
Charleston Southern
Gardner Webb
VMI
Coastal Carolina
Presby

xeyebrowx

That would be an interesting conference and no worse that than the now MONSTER CAA. The Big South is a competitive conference that in being full scholarship gives us the opportunity to play up against the best in FCS and play FBS opponents with a chance to win a few. I dont think
moving to the NEC is the route to go even with their AQ in 2010. It would be great to see Forham and Albany in the Big South in the future.

[Hate the CAA]

This thread is ABURD!!!

Fordham probably has more talent then any other team in the Patriot League. As a program they 15-25 players that no other team in the league could get admitted. The team has more minority players then any other team in the Patriot League...

I was at the URI game and Fordham looked like a CAA team where URI looked like the Patriot League team...

This thread is just silly. The Patriot League is what it is... Some years the upper echelon teams are of higher quality and can compete with the likes of the CAA. And then you have this years league in which Colgate did not belong on the field with Nova.

The bottom line is that Fordham won the league last year and easily could have done it this year. And with the talent they had they should have and b/c they didn't Masella fired Argast and Forucci as the scapegoats. You want Fordham to stay on top??? Then tell the university to pay-up b/c Masella applied for the UMASS job and he is already looking for his next move.

As for the NEC... Until they go the full 63, the 25-30 schollies that they are allotted in not a game breaker in terms of being competitive. Fordham has 53 equivalincies...

[Fordham]

That's the whole purpose of the AI. For all schools. True, the AI was changed not for Fordham's sake but for Lehigh/Lafayette/Colgate's sakes (and - let's not forget - men's basketball for all the participating schools). But that should be separated from the while Ivy/PL "philosophy" of the AI and how it ensures that athletes are representative of the whole class.

Reforming the AI does attempt to rectify an injustice the other direction. Lehigh used to admit kids with a 3.0 average and they got along fine. But now the class average is a 3.6 and kids that were getting 3.0's and succeeding all of a sudden saw themselves shut out. I guess Fordham was basically shielded from all of this.

If the goal of the AI is to have the players as representative of the students at a particular school as they are at other schools in the conference, then the old system is perfect.

As I stated above, I fully understand why the change was made ("rectify the injustice") but the fact remains that the previous system was unquestionably more fair if we're correct about the goal of the AI as stated above.

As far as your last line ... c'mon. You know we weren't basically shielded from this. Our floor went up as much if not more than anyone's since our ratings have consistently gone up from year to year and in terms of % gains it's been easier for us to raise our profile v. other PL schools b/c we were starting from a lower point. Recruiting has gotten more difficult for us as it has for everyone else but at least in terms of inter-league competitiveness we were always able to have at least one advantage which was that our band was lower since our overall academic rating was lower. Now, they've taken away that one advantage as well.


If the PL has scholarships in football, how can you say that the same thing will happen? There will be a fundamental difference between the Ivies and the PL in that case. Go back to my previous posts on scholarships. Having scholarships and this new AI is clearly an improvement over no schollies and the current AI. But putting this new AI into effect is going to put us at a disadvantage versus the rest of the PL based upon what I have said as well as the following:

According to what I was told, Fordham is the only institution who's AI was raised - meaning our pool of potential recruits shrunk versus last year and every one of our league competitors' grew. I understand that it would be fairly ridiculous for the league to come out and place the AI at or below the level of the lowest ranked school ... but, still, it pretty much singles us out as the only school to get dinged by this new rule. Now I'd love you to confirm that with the league office but assuming it's true (and I fully trust the sources I heard this from due to how high up they are) it truly does mean that we are the only ones to have been negatively impacted by this.


Again, I don't see evidence of this yet - that the "more stringent" AI means that Fordham can no longer get players that allow them to compete for a PL title, or that the other six teams are now poaching Fordham's best potential players. How would you ever see this yet? Seriously, I've talked with our coaches and administration - they all see the impact in a huge way already. Your only argument here is that we haven't officially released our recruits list and therefore it's still theoretically possible that our recruiting class won't be impacted.


And when you say that Fordham football players will need to be "more representative" of the class, that's not true. It's a binary issue: either you're representative or you're not. You're not "more" or "less". It either is or it isn't. The old AND new AI was put in place expressedly to make sure classes were representative.

What?!??

Follow this - our floor was raised and everyone else's was lowered. A student athlete that were able to recruit last year we would not be able to recruit this year. Student-athletes that G-town, Colgate, etc. would not have been able to recruit last year because they fell below their individual floor can now be recruited.

The end result is that all incoming PL football classes will be fairly representative with other incoming PL football classes at other institutions ... not directly with their peers at their same school. That's a huge difference. The peer group is now other PL football players ... not the students at the same school. Again, this is all based on it being accurate that we're the ones who's floor was raised - it therefore means that our incoming recruits this year have to be closer to the rest of the incoming student body and those at every other PL school are allowed to be further apart. THAT IS HUGE!

Now let's go back to what we agree is the goal of the AI - that the players at each school should be representative of the students at their school. How can moving to league-wide AI move us closer to acheiving the goal of the AI better than the system we already had? The answer is that it can't. There's no two ways about it. The league had a tough decision to make on whether or not it wanted to make the AI less effective in exchange for easing recruiting requirements for the higher ranked academic institutions and it chose to go that route. It's really as simple as that. I actually can't blame them since with that decision only one institution was left out in the cold or at least impacted negatively by it and it happened to be us. Rather than sit back and take it, though, I'm simply hoping that we go somewhere where we can spend our considerable resources to produce results the university can be proud of rather than spend a few million to finish in the lower tier of the PL and have the rumors of disbanding our program entirely start to resurface.

[Fordham]

This thread is ABURD!!!

Fordham probably has more talent then any other team in the Patriot League. As a program they 15-25 players that no other team in the league could get admitted. The team has more minority players then any other team in the Patriot League...

I was at the URI game and Fordham looked like a CAA team where URI looked like the Patriot League team...

This thread is just silly. The Patriot League is what it is... Some years the upper echelon teams are of higher quality and can compete with the likes of the CAA. And then you have this years league in which Colgate did not belong on the field with Nova.

The bottom line is that Fordham won the league last year and easily could have done it this year. And with the talent they had they should have and b/c they didn't Masella fired Argast and Forucci as the scapegoats. You want Fordham to stay on top??? Then tell the university to pay-up b/c Masella applied for the UMASS job and he is already looking for his next move.

As for the NEC... Until they go the full 63, the 25-30 schollies that they are allotted in not a game breaker in terms of being competitive. Fordham has 53 equivalincies... I appreciate the contribution here. It's odd that so early in the year I'm able to capture my nomination for dumbest post of the year.

Would it make a difference to you to know that Masella would have taken a pay cut if he went to UMASS?

ABURD INDEED!!

[Fordham]

Fordham-- you are correct. I was my understand that AI will be school specific, not league wide. It appears I am wrong on that point, and with that understanding you do make some valid points in regard to Fordham getting the shaft. Wouldnt it make more sense to have school specific AI, so recruits are still representaive of classes at their respective schools-- while still using the banding model.
Frank - coal region guy to coal region guy, just wanted to say that I appreciate the post.

As far as your last line - from a Fordham perspective it certainly would make sense but I understand the argument that made it get changed. As much as our academics have improved, so too have those at other PL schools and now you have fellow PL schools like Colgate/G-town who have requirements on par with the Ivies (perhaps even higher if we knew what the Ivies' requirements were).

If they don't ease the restrictions, how can they expect those schools to compete in those recruiting battles? The old floor dictated that every recruit they went after would be a competition with only PL and Ivy schools for the most part. On average, the PL school will lose most of those battles to the Ivies and then split versus their PL peers ... not exactly the recipe for a trip to Chatty. Lowering the AI for 6 out of 7 means widening the pool enough to get them better recruits. The only problem is that one school gets shafted and that's us. In the end, we need to go find someplace else to play and hopefully the PL can find a school that's a notch above in terms of academic rankings to fill our spot, so that no school is forced to be in the lowest PL caste.

[carney2]

we need to go find someplace else to play and hopefully the PL can find a school that's a notch above in terms of academic rankings to fill our spot, so that no school is forced to be in the lowest PL caste.

I know you're serious, but is any of this being discussed by the Fordham decision makers?

[Fordham]

I know you're serious, but is any of this being discussed by the Fordham decision makers?

yes, definitely being discussed.

what'll happen? ... or what would it take to move? honestly not sure ... but discussions on this topic - yes.

[Go...gate]

yes, definitely being discussed.

what'll happen? ... or what would it take to move? honestly not sure ... but discussions on this topic - yes.

Very unhappy to hear this. In addition to liking Fordham University (the institution) very much and having had extended family attend school there, I think Fordham is a fine fit in the PL. It would not be good for either Fordham or the PL if you guys left.

[Fordham]

Very unhappy to hear this. In addition to liking Fordham University (the institution) very much and having had extended family attend school there, I think Fordham is a fine fit in the PL. It would not be good for either Fordham or the PL if you guys left.

I appreciate the comments go...gate. All things being equal I love the PL affiliation. Unfortunately, things are not as equal as they were. The only area I disagree with you on is that Fordham won't be better off. There is near limitless potential that the PL has but either because they are impotent or inept, there is no way I believe that PL corporate can capitalize.

Part of the problem is that we view this as an issue that could very well define whether or not we have a program in the future. We spend that $3+MM because success is important to us ... not to be a laughingstock or bottom of the barrel/perennial loser-squad. If we spend that kind of money and are either not competitive or are just marginally competitive, you can bet that our administration will look to pocket that $$ and, perhaps more important, grab that valuable land and put it to what they view as better use.

[DFW HOYA]

Very good thread here discussing issues that the PL, for the most part, won't.

I will dispute the earlier contention that Fordham can force the league's hand on this. Associate members really don't have any say in this matter.

Fordham does have an issue--they're spending CAA-level money and risk falling behind teams spending less (one of whom, a lot less) by limiting its recruiting reach. But unless Fordham had a serious offer from a 50+ scholarship conference, I don't see Frank McLaughlin making this decision. A more likely option, and no less palatable to Fordham fans, is to accept the guidelines, reduce the budget down to Bucknell or Holy Cross' level and move that extra amount to basketball.

[TheValleyRaider]

It basically seems as though Fordham's complaint is that they no longer get to recruit players that are below the standards of the other League members

Or am I reading it wrong, because if I'm not, it almost seems like Fordham (the school, not the poster) is complaining that the other schools are now able to directly recruit against them, which seems like it could be a bit whiny, if I may say so

xpeacex

[Fordham]

Very good thread here discussing issues that the PL, for the most part, won't.

I will dispute the earlier contention that Fordham can force the league's hand on this. Associate members really don't have any say in this matter.

Fordham does have an issue--they're spending CAA-level money and risk falling behind teams spending less (one of whom, a lot less) by limiting its recruiting reach. But unless Fordham had a serious offer from a 50+ scholarship conference, I don't see Frank McLaughlin making this decision. A more likely option, and no less palatable to Fordham fans, is to accept the guidelines, reduce the budget down to Bucknell or Holy Cross' level and move that extra amount to basketball.
Agreed on all counts but that's not going to stop us from pushing them to find alternatives. All I can say at this point with certainty is that the highest levels in both athletics and the administration have discussed this and that they understand the situation as I have laid it out in the thread. However, our ties with G-town and HC are very strong and more than anything I could see that keeping us here until things either become untenable in conference or some new, clearly-better-fit conference develops. Both are very poor selections for me.

The one thing we do have on our side, though, is an extremely active alumni group that has some good $ money behind it and at least has the ear of the administration ... and we're also not full members, so it's easier to leave for one sport only.

[Fordham]

It basically seems as though Fordham's complaint is that they no longer get to recruit players that are below the standards of the other League members

Or am I reading it wrong, because if I'm not, it almost seems like Fordham (the school, not the poster) is complaining that the other schools are now able to directly recruit against them, which seems like it could be a bit whiny, if I may say so

xpeacex

That's fine. I expected there to be some pot shots at Fordham's academics and other ripping of the school that would come from starting a thread like this but it is what it is. We're a great academic institution in a league with elite academic institutions. Like the worst property in the best neighborhood. Again, it is what it is.

However, I would argue that your post above is either a flippant response or you didn't take the time to understand the problem. With the implementation of the new AI, Fordham's is the only school who's requirements went up/were made more difficult while every other school's went down. The ramifications of that are discussed above ... but I don't know how you could think it's whining to call out the fact that the league just made a change that means that our recruits have to be closer academically to the rest of our student body than yours do as unfair. They didn't just make things fair across the board, they actually made recruiting MORE difficult for the lowest ranked academic school in the conference (as if that weren't enough of a challenge by itself).

Your argument above would be more spot on if they chose Fordham's floor as the league floor (although I'd still see inequity since the deviation for between incoming recruits and the rest of the student body at the better academic institutions is greater than it is for us).

I also have a hard time buying that you'd so willing accept a change from the league for Colgate that put up a recruiting barrier for you guys but no one else.

[TheValleyRaider]

That's fine. I expected there to be some pot shots at Fordham's academics and other ripping of the school that would come from starting a thread like this but it is what it is. We're a great academic institution in a league with elite academic institutions. Like the worst property in the best neighborhood. Again, it is what it is.

However, I would argue that your post above is either a flippant response or you didn't take the time to understand the problem. With the implementation of the new AI, Fordham's is the only school who's requirements went up/were made more difficult while every other school's went down. The ramifications of that are discussed above ... but I don't know how you could think it's whining to call out the fact that the league just made a change that means that our recruits have to be closer academically to the rest of our student body than yours do as unfair. They didn't just make things fair across the board, they actually made recruiting MORE difficult for the lowest ranked academic school in the conference (as if that weren't enough of a challenge by itself).

Your argument above would be more spot on if they chose Fordham's floor as the league floor (although I'd still see inequity since the deviation for between incoming recruits and the rest of the student body at the better academic institutions is greater than it is for us).

I also have a hard time buying that you'd so willing accept a change from the league for Colgate that put up a recruiting barrier for you guys but no one else.

That's perfectly fair, though I was not in any way trying to be flippant, just better understand the situation. This is a Patriot League thread, not some SoCon or CAA jaunt mixed with indiscriminant insults. We can be cordial and civilized ;)

I have nothing but a great deal of respect for Fordham as an institution, am glad they are in the PL, and certainly hope they stay

I will say though that I don't particularly think it suggests that the League doesn't care about Fordham. If changes were going to be made (and to me some change to the AI was coming at some point), then someone was likely to benefit or be hurt by the changes. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't be upset, or at least disappointed, by the changes, but I also don't think it is indicative of the League "not caring" (so to speak) about Fordham. If there isn't a change to the AI, for example, Georgetown's requirements remain much higher than the rest of the League and it's the Hoyas who are at a competitive disadvantage

[RichH2]

Well, the PL AI having read it again and finally gotten my head aound it with LFN's help, reminds me of all the recent discussion of the national "income gap".

Leaving the AI as it was Fordham would continue to have a substantial ad over LU,Gate,LC having a lower school basis to work from.
From LU's perspective the marked increase over the in each incoming class reduced our prospective pool each year. While it may be that a school specific AI would be the fairest IF all the schools are within the same or similar parameters. That is not the case . The disparity forcing some schools because of rising seas to recruit head to head more and more often with the Ivies while FU did not have is also unfair.

While the new AI may limit FU from getting athletes under the floor that they once could have gotten, it does not prevent them from competing head to head with the rest of us for players above 1200.

A league wide AI evens the field for everyone.

MY hope is that this is a prelude to schollies,,SOON.

[Collegefootballfan]

Very interesting post on the complexities of maintaining a football
program in the Patriot League. Many valid points were made .
One thing thou, what was the official reaction to the changes from
the powers that be. Surely there must be an official reaction from
the Fordham AD office. If there were any objections to the changes
at the time of the discussion at the league meetings what were
they and how hard did the Fordham Rep fight to protect there
rights. What was the vote on league lines for the changes vs those that
objected to them . In other words was it an attempt by league members
to gang up on Fordham or was it to acheive a more even playing field.
Who was for it and who was against it . An are the changes something Fordham can live with or is indeed forcing them to look else where.
If this is the case surely league official had to be aware of this in making these new rules, and are prepared for the worse case scenario of making
Fordham leave. Or is this giving league officials too much credit.

[EagleDawg]

What do Big South fans/posters think about Fordham as the 8th team in the conference. What are the pros and cons. The most obvious advantage would be to have 8 league teams which requires only scheduling 4 non-conf. games. Currently scheduling 5 non-conf. is somewhat tough to balance between other FCS schools, BCS schools and DII. It would also give Stony Brook a geographic rival. Don't know that much about Fordham and how they compare to other Big South Schools based on avg. stats for incoming freshmen and student body size. Is Fordham in a position to offer a full or almost full compliment of the 63 schollies at the FCS level? Thoughts anyone?

[MplsBison]

I don't see why Fordham wouldn't want to play scholarship football, where you can offer a recruit a scholarship based solely on his athletic merit.

Stanford, Northwestern, Rice, Duke, etc. seem to be able to live with it.

[Franks Tanks]

What do Big South fans/posters think about Fordham as the 8th team in the conference. What are the pros and cons. The most obvious advantage would be to have 8 league teams which requires only scheduling 4 non-conf. games. Currently scheduling 5 non-conf. is somewhat tough to balance between other FCS schools, BCS schools and DII. It would also give Stony Brook a geographic rival. Don't know that much about Fordham and how they compare to other Big South Schools based on avg. stats for incoming freshmen and student body size. Is Fordham in a position to offer a full or almost full compliment of the 63 schollies at the FCS level? Thoughts anyone?

Fordham would most likely be the the most selective school in the Big South by quite a bit. Presby and GW may be up their but I am not sure. Fordham is a catholic university located in The South Bronx. They have about 7,500 undergrads and play all other sports in the A-10. Their admission rate is about 42% and they have some very stroung grad programs as well. Fordham also currently spends 3.9 million a year on football and would most likely be willing and able to give 63 full rides without spending that much more.

[MplsBison]

Well, I imagine Liberty is pretty selective.

You can only get in there if you believe in Jerry Falwell.

[Jackman]

If the Big South can get Fordham and Valparaiso, they'll have a complete set of the major Christian denominations. I don't think there are any Eastern Orthodox football schools (can't think of any Division I schools period). Then the theological debate can be settled on the field! :D

[Franks Tanks]

Well, I imagine Liberty is pretty selective.

You can only get in there if you believe in Jerry Falwell.

Liberty actually admits 94% of applicants. The main reason for this appears to be the fact that Falwell wanted the University to have 25-30k students so they are letting in almost every applicant.

[MplsBison]

If the Big South can get Fordham and Valparaiso, they'll have a complete set of the major Christian denominations. I don't think there are any Eastern Orthodox football schools (can't think of any Division I schools period). Then the theological debate can be settled on the field! :D

What about Wesleyan?

[MplsBison]

Liberty actually admits 94% of applicants. The main reason for this appears to be the fact that Falwell wanted the University to have 25-30k students so they are letting in almost every applicant.

Yeah but every applicant is already a thumper (except maybe for athletes).

[Hansel]

Fordham could join the Great West... they are looking for members

[Fordham]

While the new AI may limit FU from getting athletes under the floor that they once could have gotten, it does not prevent them from competing head to head with the rest of us for players above 1200.

No, it doesn't PREVENT us from competing with them ... it just puts us at a considerable disadvantage to do so because the league now requires the Fordham football player to be closer to his peer students at Fordham than any other school in the PL does.

So, how is that fair? The true answer is that it's not but the fact is that life is not fair. The league chose, and understandably so, to make a decision that benefitted 6 out of the 7 football playing institutions despite the fact that it makes the AI less fair or less perfect than it's intended purpose of having the athletes at an school be representative of the students who go to that school. One school got screwed and that's us but I can see how it was worthwhile for the PL to do so if it benefitted the others. That understanding isn't anywhere near enough for me to be comfortable playing in the PL ever again, though, as I'm more worried about the future of our program if we continue to spend $3MM/year and start to deliver meager results.

As a result, we'll hopefully find a new place to play and the PL can hopefully find a school that has an AI right in line with the rest of the PL so it blends right into the AI instead of being an outlier.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There is some irony about Fordham people complaining about the AI and how it hurts their chance to win. It seems they want to provide scholarships, which every PL fan wants, so they can compete at the highest level of FCS. It's very similar to when their bball programs pulled out of the PL 15 or so years ago. Yet their basketball program is still a flat out joke and why the A10 let them in is beyond me. Well it had something to do with NYC but that luster is well gone. The Rams are basically the Georgetown of the A10. They both have terrible facilities and an adminstration that could careless about the success or failure of their teams. I wish the A10 put some pressure of Fordhams adminstration to either pony up or get out much like the BE did to Temple football.

[Go...gate]

It basically seems as though Fordham's complaint is that they no longer get to recruit players that are below the standards of the other League members

Or am I reading it wrong, because if I'm not, it almost seems like Fordham (the school, not the poster) is complaining that the other schools are now able to directly recruit against them, which seems like it could be a bit whiny, if I may say so

xpeacex

Is this the case?

[Go...gate]

I appreciate the comments go...gate. All things being equal I love the PL affiliation. Unfortunately, things are not as equal as they were. The only area I disagree with you on is that Fordham won't be better off. There is near limitless potential that the PL has but either because they are impotent or inept, there is no way I believe that PL corporate can capitalize.

Part of the problem is that we view this as an issue that could very well define whether or not we have a program in the future. We spend that $3+MM because success is important to us ... not to be a laughingstock or bottom of the barrel/perennial loser-squad. If we spend that kind of money and are either not competitive or are just marginally competitive, you can bet that our administration will look to pocket that $$ and, perhaps more important, grab that valuable land and put it to what they view as better use.

Fundamentally, the PL leadership is rearranging deck chairs on a ship going in the wrong direction. I used to be about as anti-scholarship as any PL fan, but I am also a realist. The rules have changed and the PL must change to keep pace. I remember when the PL struggled so as a league in the early 1990's. It made changes and became competitive. It must do the same again.

[DFW HOYA]

The rules have changed and the PL must change to keep pace. I remember when the PL struggled so as a league in the early 1990's. It made changes and became competitive. It must do the same again.

As a fan, that's easy to say. But to the PL leadership, there's no incentive right now to do so. In tight economic times, it's easy for the Leh and Laf presidents to say they're holding the line on spending and what does it hurt them? They still get their friendly Ivy games, perhaps with a few more L's, they still get a good chance at a berth in the playoffs, perhaps with a lot more L's, and Channel 69 and SE2 aren't going away.

In two words: status quo. And that's why nothing is changing (again) this off-season.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

As a fan, that's easy to say. But to the PL leadership, there's no incentive right now to do so. In tight economic times, it's easy for the Leh and Laf presidents to say they're holding the line on spending and what does it hurt them? They still get their friendly Ivy games, perhaps with a few more L's, they still get a good chance at a berth in the playoffs, perhaps with a lot more L's, and Channel 69 and SE2 aren't going away.

In two words: status quo. And that's why nothing is changing (again) this off-season.

I want to know what has happened over the last 20 years that have made PL presidents so paranoid about their schools status. All these schools survived and actually in most cases prospered more so before the inception of the PL. They were great schools then just like they are now. The only difference is they probably didn't have the nauseating elitist attitude. I'm a huge Lehigh football fan but i do get annoyed by how a large portion of their alumni pound their chest and think they got a Law degree from Yale. I've seen this first hand at family functions. PL schools are all great academic institutions but they're not HYP. If Stanford, which is 10x better than any PL school, can associate themselves with Washington State then the PL can take the AI and stick it up their....xeekx

[blukeys]

My solution is simple. Fordham should join the CAA!!!:D:D:D

They would be able to offer scollies.

Their BBall teams, Mens and Womens would have no worse opportunities to get to the Ncaa's than in the A-10.xnodxxnodxxnodx

They could join the other academic reprobates such as William and Mary, Richmond, James Madison, Villanova, and Delaware.

Yes the PL academic chest thumping that excuses athletic failure would no longer be part of their resume. But at least they would be more honest about their athletic pretensions joining schools such as Boston College.

The PL is a Gordian Knot ensnaring anyone who has no brain.

They offer scollies in some sports BUT NOT Football. What incredible hypocrisy!!! Give me a break, that is like a prostitute who says. "I'll do any guy who does not have RED HAIR."

The Pl needs to get over themselves. The Richmond example is for real and the Pl administrators have yet to figure this out.

Fordham folks, Look out for yourselves.

It is apparrent that the Pl will not look out for you!!!xnodxxnodx

[MplsBison]

I want to know what has happened over the last 20 years that have made PL presidents so paranoid about their schools status. All these schools survived and actually in most cases prospered more so before the inception of the PL. They were great schools then just like they are now. The only difference is they probably didn't have the nauseating elitist attitude. I'm a huge Lehigh football fan but i do get annoyed by how a large portion of their alumni pound their chest and think they got a Law degree from Yale. I've seen this first hand at family functions. PL schools are all great academic institutions but they're not HYP. If Stanford, which is 10x better than any PL school, can associate themselves with Washington State then the PL can take the AI and stick it up their....xeekx

xthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupx xthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupx xthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupx xthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupx xthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupxxthumbsupx

[Dane96]

Blukeys-

Not sure if that is a joke...but if it was not, why wouldnt you want an ALBANY in the CAA (lax, volleyball, Track and Field, Basketball, soccer, Football, Field Hockey...all highly successful)?

[Cobblestone]

Come to the CAA. You beat us every year so you'll at least have one victory.

Eventaully I can see the northern schools in the CAA breaking off and forming their own conference, so I'm sure Fordham would be welcomed.

xtwocentsx

[Fordham]

There is some irony about Fordham people complaining about the AI and how it hurts their chance to win. It seems they want to provide scholarships, which every PL fan wants, so they can compete at the highest level of FCS. It's very similar to when their bball programs pulled out of the PL 15 or so years ago. Yet their basketball program is still a flat out joke and why the A10 let them in is beyond me. Well it had something to do with NYC but that luster is well gone. The Rams are basically the Georgetown of the A10. They both have terrible facilities and an adminstration that could careless about the success or failure of their teams. I wish the A10 put some pressure of Fordhams adminstration to either pony up or get out much like the BE did to Temple football.

1. We have been pretty successful in this decade in the PL in football and the PL just made a change that is going to negatively impact our competitiveness while increasing of the competitiveness of every other league foe. Here's where I need help following your logic - because our hoops team has performed pretty much horribly since moving the A10, we should therefore accept this change by the PL b/c we're simply going to face the same the results in football that we have in hoops? xeyebrowx

2. Your point would be more valid imo if there were no changes made by the PL but we were still chasing a move to scholarship conference. This push is being made based not on the fact that we don't like a level playing field ... it's based on the fact that we don't like being the one school who is negatively impacted by a decision from the PL that will decrease our competitiveness. I know empathy is easier for some than others but I have a hard time buying that Lehigh fans would ever accept a decision that singled them out like this.

3. We should expect success in football because we spend as much as anyone in FCS. The same is not true in hoops. We don't even spend in the upper half of the A10, let alone among the top in our division. And that's really the key to this thing firing up the supporters of the program. There's always a concern that a sport that spends this much every year is at risk at some point in getting cut. And we believe that the surest way to get the sport cut is to keep spending as much as anyone in FCS and produce feeble results.



By the way, I'm hoping LFN gets to the PL offices to get their take. I'm sure there will be spin coming out of the office but I'd at least like to know how they're rationalizing it. I'd have the most respect for them if they simply stated what I believe to be the case - a decision that benefits 6 out of 7 institutions made too much sense that they couldn't keep from moving just to protect the interests of an affiliate.

[Franks Tanks]

1. We have been pretty successful in this decade in the PL in football and the PL just made a change that is going to negatively impact our competitiveness while increasing of the competitiveness of every other league foe. Here's where I need help following your logic - because our hoops team has performed pretty much horribly since moving the A10, we should therefore accept this change by the PL b/c we're simply going to face the same the results in football that we have in hoops? xeyebrowx

2. Your point would be more valid imo if there were no changes made by the PL but we were still chasing a move to scholarship conference. This push is being made based not on the fact that we don't like a level playing field ... it's based on the fact that we don't like being the one school who is negatively impacted by a decision from the PL that will decrease our competitiveness. I know empathy is easier for some than others but I have a hard time buying that Lehigh fans would ever accept a decision that singled them out like this.

3. We should expect success in football because we spend as much as anyone in FCS. The same is not true in hoops. We don't even spend in the upper half of the A10, let alone among the top in our division. And that's really the key to this thing firing up the supporters of the program. There's always a concern that a sport that spends this much every year is at risk at some point in getting cut. And we believe that the surest way to get the sport cut is to keep spending as much as anyone in FCS and produce feeble results.



By the way, I'm hoping LFN gets to the PL offices to get their take. I'm sure there will be spin coming out of the office but I'd at least like to know how they're rationalizing it. I'd have the most respect for them if they simply stated what I believe to be the case - a decision that benefits 6 out of 7 institutions made too much sense that they couldn't keep from moving just to protect the interests of an affiliate.


I agree Fordham. PL football teams have some of the best facilities and largest budgets in FCS. We could keep our budgets essentially flat and become much more competitive nationally with scholarships and a school specific AI.

In todays economic climate ROI is becoming more pertinent. The PL can gain a large ROI increase by making a few changes- i think its time to make the move. We need to sell it as a way to increase competitiveness without increasing spend or lowering standards-- how can a reasonable person say no to that?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree Fordham. PL football teams have some of the best facilities and largest budgets in FCS. We could keep our budgets essentially flat and become much more competitive nationally with scholarships and a school specific AI.

In todays economic climate ROI is becoming more pertinent. The PL can gain a large ROI increase by making a few changes- i think its time to make the move. We need to sell it as a way to increase competitiveness without increasing spend or lowering standards-- how can a reasonable person say no to that?

The "big 4" (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Fordham)'s spending would be flat. That's most certainly not the case with the three schools I didn't mention.

[Franks Tanks]

The "big 4" (Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Fordham)'s spending would be flat. That's most certainly not the case with the three schools I didn't mention.

That is true, but a league wise consensus may be impossible. Also HC would probably be for it. Their fans have been complaining for years and lets please give them FB scholarships already as well!

[jimbo65]

yes, definitely being discussed.

what'll happen? ... or what would it take to move? honestly not sure ... but discussions on this topic - yes.
Boy I hope you are correct. But unless alums who back the fball program have photos of Frank, Gray and the rest of the do-nothings in the Athletic Dept. doing something un-Jesuitical, this bunch will do nothing to offset a pending disaster. Remember this group replied that they would not even think about dismissing the ladies basketball coach after 2-27 & 0-29 seasons.

I also found it interesting that we pay Masella more than UMASS pays for the position. That being the case, we should toss Masella and get someone who wants to be at Fordham.

[MplsBison]

Why even have an AI if you're going to implement scholarships?

Stanford doesn't.


They go after kids who are smart enough to get into the school but are also fantasitc football athletes and give them a scholarship. Done and done.


What value could an AI possibly add to the equation?

[Fordham]

Boy I hope you are correct. But unless alums who back the fball program have photos of Frank, Gray and the rest of the do-nothings in the Athletic Dept. doing something un-Jesuitical, this bunch will do nothing to offset a pending disaster. Remember this group replied that they would not even think about dismissing the ladies basketball coach after 2-27 & 0-29 seasons.

I also found it interesting that we pay Masella more than UMASS pays for the position. That being the case, we should toss Masella and get someone who wants to be at Fordham.
Yeah, I've gone out of my way to indicate that the issue is both understood and being discussed but, to your point, whether or not that translates into action is anyone's guess.

Regarding Masella - I think it's valid to hold that opinion when a coach looks elsewhere but I'm actually fine with it for no other reason than he clearly sees the writing on the wall with this PL AI move. The fact that he was willing to go to UMASS for less is very telling imo. I think he's aware that as much as everyone says that they'll be understanding of substandard results in the next few years (when this year's recruits are Jrs/Srs) due to this PL AI change, the fact is that you are your record and he's simply delaying the inevitable if he sticks around. He has kids that aren't in college yet, so it's not like he only has 3 or 4 more years in the business before hanging it up. Do you think he's more marketable now after 1 championship in 3 seasons at Fordham or after a few real stinker seasons once the AI impact hits?

[Seawolf97]

Come to the CAA. You beat us every year so you'll at least have one victory.

Eventaully I can see the northern schools in the CAA breaking off and forming their own conference, so I'm sure Fordham would be welcomed.

xtwocentsx

While I agree a new conference might be in the wind ,that wind isnt blowing for long time. If Fordham is serious about leaving the PL and going to a full scholarship program their options are really limited.
1- They good go Indy which isnt such a good idea and would make it tough for any kind of playoff bid.
2- The NEC isnt going full scholarship any time soon and may never go above the 40 they plan.
3 The Big South may welcome them with open arms. It expands the Big Souths footprint to two programs in the NYC Metro area, gives us a conference rival 50 miles away and adds a historic program to the Big South. It also gives Fordham an AQ opportunity and when they get to 63 scholarships a counter team for FBS games.

[danefan]

While I agree a new conference might be in the wind ,that wind isnt blowing for long time. If Fordham is serious about leaving the PL and going to a full scholarship program their options are really limited.
1- They good go Indy which isnt such a good idea and would make it tough for any kind of playoff bid.
2- The NEC isnt going full scholarship any time soon and may never go above the 40 they plan.
3 The Big South may welcome them with open arms. It expands the Big Souths footprint to two programs in the NYC Metro area, gives us a conference rival 50 miles away and adds a historic program to the Big South. It also gives Fordham an AQ opportunity and when they get to 63 scholarships a counter team for FBS games.

And you can bet your butt that if Fordham were to seriously consider the Big South they could add Albany as a travel partner/conference rival as well.

I'd love to Albany, Fordham and Stony Brook in the same full-scholarship conference.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

IIRC, this is the Patriot League football teams status:

Lehigh - All sports
Lafayette - All
Colgate - All
Bucknell - All
Holy Cross - All
Fordham - Football only
Georgetown - Football only

JMHO, but not having 6+ football members as all sports members is a risk in terms of maintaining your AQ. Why wouldn't the PL want to add more all sports members who play football? Why would the PL want to risk losing an affliliate member when it would reduce the league to six members?

As I understand things, back in the 80's the Patriot had William & Mary on board for all sports, but the issue of scholarships ended that agreement. Betcha that Richmond and Villanova looked at the Patriot in a completely different light when they joined the Yankee/A-10 had W&M been aboard.

And over the past decades, the Patriot has had serious inquiries from public institutions that believed in high academic standards for athletes. But they were publics so no matter how serious they were about academics, they were deemed to have a competitive advantage because they cost less to attend. And I've read on this forum interest from Marist, Hofstra and Northeastern about membership in the Patriot. They're all private institutions but I guess they weren't viewed as worthy enough and/or capable of becoming Patriot institutions. Is there any institution not already in the Ivy League that would meet the Patriot's standards? xconfusedx xconfusedx

Now the Patriot seems to be alienating an affiliate member (Fordham). Would Fordham leave over this issue? Would the Patriot adding scholarships keep Fordham but drive Georgetown to the Pioneer? What would Holy Cross do? If Fordham leaves the Patriot, adds scholarships and moves to the Big South (along with Albany), does Monmouth and/or Central CT follow them because they too could go full scholly? What happens to Wagner, Sacred Heart, Duquesne and Robert Morris? Does the Pioneer add them or does another Pioneer type league form because there would be 16+. If not, do their programs wither and die like the MAAC programs did? Would their programs ever be accepted by the Patriot?

Whatever the Patriot decides, there could be significant impact across FCS.

[MplsBison]

And you can bet your butt that if Fordham were to seriously consider the Big South they could add Albany as a travel partner/conference rival as well.

I'd love to Albany, Fordham and Stony Brook in the same full-scholarship conference.


Albany and Fordham to the Big South in 2010?

[danefan]

Albany and Fordham to the Big South in 2010?

At this point if either school wants to go full scholly within the next 10 years I don't see any other way.

Like I said earlier in the thread, the Big South has an opportunity to model itself after the CAA and start picking up the void that is full-scholarship FCS football in the Northeast. The NEC has indicated no interest in going beyond the 40 scholasrhips and they aren't even willing to get to that level quickly. A minor re-branding to the Big America Conference and I bet you'd get some serious interest from some NEC members and perhaps Fordham.

[EagleDawg]

Not sure if the Big South is looking at expansion but if so a couple of thoughts. 1) I don't see expansion going beyond a total of 9 teams so that you have a max. of 8 conf. games and 3 non-conf. in an 11 game season 2) I believe the Big South has just this past season gotten all current members aligned in the same conference with regard to the major revenue sports (football and basketball), would Fordham and/or Albany agree to join the league for both football and basketball? If not, would that kill the deal? 3) Would there be a transition period where new teams entering the league would ineligble for the conference championships? If so is that a non-starter for the new teams? 4) Are both Fordham and Albany ready to fund a full compliment of scholarships (55-63 range)? 5) The Big South gets that automatic bid in 2010 for the football playoffs, so that has to be a compelling draw for all recruits and potential new schools. Everyone likes the chance to play for a championship.

[jimbo65]

Yeah, I've gone out of my way to indicate that the issue is both understood and being discussed but, to your point, whether or not that translates into action is anyone's guess.

Regarding Masella - I think it's valid to hold that opinion when a coach looks elsewhere but I'm actually fine with it for no other reason than he clearly sees the writing on the wall with this PL AI move. The fact that he was willing to go to UMASS for less is very telling imo. I think he's aware that as much as everyone says that they'll be understanding of substandard results in the next few years (when this year's recruits are Jrs/Srs) due to this PL AI change, the fact is that you are your record and he's simply delaying the inevitable if he sticks around. He has kids that aren't in college yet, so it's not like he only has 3 or 4 more years in the business before hanging it up. Do you think he's more marketable now after 1 championship in 3 seasons at Fordham or after a few real stinker seasons once the AI impact hits?

I understand Masella's motive (s), which I believe are sound from his standpoint. That said, we should care what is best for our program, which IMHO, is showing him the door and finding someone who wants to be there, if only for a few years. My rancor is with our horrible Athletic Department, who, have mostly overseen twenty years of failure.

I attended the bball game yesterday v. Duquense. The Dukes are hardly top drawer but they destroyed us. We went 1-20 from the 3 point mark until garbage time. Had we not had Jio Fontan we would have lost by 40 rather than 20. The fault lies with the Administration mostly, not the coaches.

[danefan]

1) I don't see expansion going beyond a total of 9 teams so that you have a max. of 8 conf. games and 3 non-conf. in an 11 game season
Rotational schedules are becoming common place in college football. The CAA has proven that it works just fine in FCS.

2) I believe the Big South has just this past season gotten all current members aligned in the same conference with regard to the major revenue sports (football and basketball), would Fordham and/or Albany agree to join the league for both football and basketball? If not, would that kill the deal?
Stony Brook is a football affiliate. The rest of their sports in the America East along with Albany. Albany would enter the same way as SBU.

3) Would there be a transition period where new teams entering the league would ineligble for the conference championships? If so is that a non-starter for the new teams? No. There is a transition period for transitional teams from DII. But SBU was immediately eligible this year for the conference championship.

4) Are both Fordham and Albany ready to fund a full compliment of scholarships (55-63 range)?
I don't either would go to the Big South if they weren't. Albany wouldn't leave the NEC if didn't want to go full scholarship. We could stay at 40 rides and win the NEC and get the AQ.

[EagleDawg]

danefan - Thanks for the answers. As a Big South Fan with no vote I would welcome you guys in. I earlier thought that ODU may be a Big South team but they went CAA instead. ODU IMO has bit off more than they can chew as a new start up but they obviously felt the CAA a better fit. Good luck to the Monarchs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I believe the Big South has just this past season gotten all current members aligned in the same conference with regard to the major revenue sports (football and basketball), would Fordham and/or Albany agree to join the league for both football and basketball? If not, would that kill the deal?

Never.

Yes.


As I understand things, back in the 80's the Patriot had William & Mary on board for all sports, but the issue of scholarships ended that agreement. Betcha that Richmond and Villanova looked at the Patriot in a completely different light when they joined the Yankee/A-10 had W&M been aboard.

Richmond, absolutely. Villanova, not so much - they're still, as strange as it seems, aligned with Delaware when it comes to football despite the many differences in their institutions. Still, Villanova has sniffed around joining the Patriot League before - but, of course, clearly as an affiliate, which doesn't help the Patriot League.

All these things, though, are clearly ancient history. IMO nobody is going to give up A-10 basketball for Patriot League membership (or NEC or CAA for that matter).


Now the Patriot seems to be alienating an affiliate member (Fordham). Would Fordham leave over this issue? Would the Patriot adding scholarships keep Fordham but drive Georgetown to the Pioneer? What would Holy Cross do? If Fordham leaves the Patriot, adds scholarships and moves to the Big South (along with Albany), does Monmouth and/or Central CT follow them because they too could go full scholly? What happens to Wagner, Sacred Heart, Duquesne and Robert Morris? Does the Pioneer add them or does another Pioneer type league form because there would be 16+. If not, do their programs wither and die like the MAAC programs did? Would their programs ever be accepted by the Patriot?

You've touched on about, oh, five different Eastern football flashpoints at once, all pretty much worthy of their own threads. :D

But your thesis seems to be: Eastern football is a mess. Fordham's "choices" seem to indicate that the conference landscape is a mess, partially shaped by rules for the playoffs.

* The CAA is expanding to 14 teams (i.e., no room for Fordham) and looks less like a football conference than an "alliance" of fourteen different public and private institutions whose only linkage is that they like putting teams into the playoffs - stretching from Maine to Georgia.
* The Big South is an unwieldy conference consisting of members only together for convenience's sake - which stretches from Long Island to South Carolina.
* The NEC's footprint is smaller, but it's a mix of public and private schools and can't decide whether it wants to be a scholarship conference or some "third way" between the CAA and Pioneer.
* The sclerotic Ivy seems to be stuck in 1948.
* The only slightly less sclerotic Patriot League is trying desperately to make their alliance work with five full members, an affiliate which sometimes seems like "Pioneer plus a few schollies", and another which seems to be under pressure from the new AI model.
* And the Pioneer is trying to succeed as a "D-III league in a D-I world" that stretches from Poughkeepsie, NY to San Diego.

I smell a blog posting in here somewhere.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

1) I don't see expansion going beyond a total of 9 teams so that you have a max. of 8 conf. games and 3 non-conf. in an 11 game season
Rotational schedules are becoming common place in college football. The CAA has proven that it works just fine in FCS.

xlolxxlolxxlolx

Come on danefan, are you serious? You're now a convert of a 14-team CAA?

[danefan]

xlolxxlolxxlolx

Come on danefan, are you serious? You're now a convert of a 14-team CAA?

Not by choice, but I think a 10 or 11 team conference can work if necessary.

What other choice is there?

If Albany were to join a 10 or 11 team Big South and got to guarantee that is played every northern Big South team every year, than I wouldn't really care if they didn't play Gardner Webb or Presby every year.

[DFW HOYA]

Now the Patriot seems to be alienating an affiliate member (Fordham). Would Fordham leave over this issue? Would the Patriot adding scholarships keep Fordham but drive Georgetown to the Pioneer?

Umm...no. Georgetown is not opposed to the concept of athletic scholarships--they are theoretically available for 23 of its 29 teams. Paying for them is another issue.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Umm...no. Georgetown is not opposed to the concept of athletic scholarships--they are theoretically available for 23 of its 29 teams. Paying for them is another issue.

That reality is why I asked the question about the Pioneer. Would Georgetown be willing to pay for football scholarships?

[MplsBison]

That reality is why I asked the question about the Pioneer. Would Georgetown be willing to pay for football scholarships?

The only reason they're in the PL now is that the admin knew it'd be the cheapest league to be in since they don't have to give scholarships.

[danefan]

The only reason they're in the PL now is that the admin knew it'd be the cheapest league to be in since they don't have to give scholarships.

Georgetown could spend less in the NEC or PFL. I would bet their $1.5 million football budget is larger than any PFL squad, no?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Richmond, absolutely. Villanova, not so much - they're still, as strange as it seems, aligned with Delaware when it comes to football despite the many differences in their institutions. Still, Villanova has sniffed around joining the Patriot League before - but, of course, clearly as an affiliate, which doesn't help the Patriot League.

All these things, though, are clearly ancient history. IMO nobody is going to give up A-10 basketball for Patriot League membership (or NEC or CAA for that matter).

My point is that history may have taken a very different turn with different decisions by the PL. With scholarships back in the 80's, W&M joins the PL. Come the mid 80's and I'll guess that Richmond might have been swayed toward all sports membership because W&M was on board. At a minimum, I think with scholarships the Spiders come on board for football since they have more in common with the PL schools than the Yankee Conference schools.

Fast forward a few years into the 90's when Villanova is looking for a home for their restored football program. Lo and behold, there are a few of their former major college mates from the days before they dropped football residing in the Patriot. They don't leave the Big East, but relationship with Delaware or not, I bet they opt for the Patriot in football over the A-10. None of the current Villanova issues would exist -- the Patriot would have scholarships and they'd be playing at the highest level and they could still play Delaware as an OOC.


You've touched on about, oh, five different Eastern football flashpoints at once, all pretty much worthy of their own threads. :D

But your thesis seems to be: Eastern football is a mess. Fordham's "choices" seem to indicate that the conference landscape is a mess, partially shaped by rules for the playoffs.

* The CAA is expanding to 14 teams (i.e., no room for Fordham) and looks less like a football conference than an "alliance" of fourteen different public and private institutions whose only linkage is that they like putting teams into the playoffs - stretching from Maine to Georgia.
* The Big South is an unwieldy conference consisting of members only together for convenience's sake - which stretches from Long Island to South Carolina.
* The NEC's footprint is smaller, but it's a mix of public and private schools and can't decide whether it wants to be a scholarship conference or some "third way" between the CAA and Pioneer.
* The sclerotic Ivy seems to be stuck in 1948.
* The only slightly less sclerotic Patriot League is trying desperately to make their alliance work with five full members, an affiliate which sometimes seems like "Pioneer plus a few schollies", and another which seems to be under pressure from the new AI model.
* And the Pioneer is trying to succeed as a "D-III league in a D-I world" that stretches from Poughkeepsie, NY to San Diego.

I smell a blog posting in here somewhere.

Glad to provide so many ideas for your blog!!

Not sure about all your bullet points, for example a less contentious CAA linkage would be the desire to play FCS Football at the highest level. ;) But yes, my thesis is Eastern Football has become an extremely tangled mess (including BC and Penn State but that's another topic for another forum). It has arrived at this juncture because of multiple conferences making unfavorable decisions. A thesis point of mine has always been that playing football is a factor that creates a huge difference in the administration of an athletic department. Because of that I've always favored the football schools being together in all sports leagues. I don't know if that is even possible to happen any longer. xconfusedx

I do know that it will probably never happen unless some combination of the following occurs:

The Patriot makes itself more attractive to other private institutions (read: scholarships and a clear commitment to playing at the highest level of FCS and be eligible for FBS games) and/or agrees that some schools wouldn't tarnish their standards.
The NCAA makes it easier for all sports leagues to be created from existing schools and obtain AQ status very quickly. For example, I see lots of similarities between GaSoU, GaStateU, App State, JMU, East Carolina, ODU, Middle TN, Marshall, WKU, etc. not too far down the road. And fewer philosophical differences between the big publics and smaller privates of the SoCon, between the big publics and the smaller publics/privates within the CAA, etc. The current landscape is an impediment to that natural progression from occurring.
Non-football playing schools stop blocking the interests of football playing schools within their conference. For example, America East will never sponsor football otherwise.
The CAA increases even further (16-18 teams) to allow associations to continue and new ones to grow until the time when re-organization can occur.
The NCAA steps in and helps re-organize by acknowledging that football has a need for its own set of leagues. For example, Hockey East is a stand alone league that includes schools that otherwise would never be aligned (BC and PC with UNH, Maine, Vermont, UMass, UMass-Lowell, Merrimack, Northeastern and Boston U.). And just like gymnastics where UNH competes in the EAGL with North Carolina, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Maryland, and others. Form "niche" leagues that best meet the need of the sport. As long as Northeastern and Hofstra are all sports members of the CAA, getting them into a football league with their North East brethren will be difficult at best.


I'll stop this tangent and allow this discussion to return to "what should Fordham do". LFN will more than likely start a thread when he writes his blog entry. ;) xnodx xbowx

[Seawolf97]

Why do I feel that Fordham may be backing into a corner. The NEC or the current PL is not the solution so it is INDY or Big South or just stay put and grin and bear it.

[MplsBison]

Georgetown could spend less in the NEC or PFL. I would bet their $1.5 million football budget is larger than any PFL squad, no?

Yeah but the admin are not going to academically stoop down to the level of the NEC or PFL (in their eyes, at least).

[danefan]

Yeah but the admin are not going to academically stoop down to the level of the NEC or PFL (in their eyes, at least).

Agreed. They went to the PL for the academic presige alone. It had nothing to do with football.

[LBPop]

Umm...no. Georgetown is not opposed to the concept of athletic scholarships--they are theoretically available for 23 of its 29 teams. Paying for them is another issue.

xlolxxlolxxlolx
That reminds me of the old Steve Martin routine: "How to make a million dollars and not pay taxes. First, you make a million dollars..." It's always the little details that'll get ya'. Sure, scholarships sound great. So does a 15,000 capacity stadium, with a state of the art weight room, meeting rooms, etc.

Hey DFW, I do have a question for you. If the Patriot League has effectively lowered the AI for Georgetown, is Georgetown obligated to follow it? Is it possible that the admissions people could become an obstacle? (Sorry, I guess that was two questions). :(

[DFW HOYA]

Hey DFW, I do have a question for you. If the Patriot League has effectively lowered the AI for Georgetown, is Georgetown obligated to follow it? Is it possible that the admissions people could become an obstacle? (Sorry, I guess that was two questions). :(

Obligated to? No, unless the bylaws required it.
Encouraged to? Sure.

Admissions has been supportive over the years and I see no reason why that would not continue.

(And yes, I get your signature's message...)


The only reason they're in the PL now is that the admin knew it'd be the cheapest league to be in since they don't have to give scholarships.

Again, no.

Georgetown considered a move from the MAAC not because the MAAC was foundering--in fact, the MAAC was a relatively stable nine school league eyeing a 12 team divisional setup, and still considered superior to the NEC in its early days.

Former coach Bob Benson saw the PL as the best way to meet the goals of improved competition (particualrly with Ivy schools who share common application pools with Georgetown), closer ties with Holy Cross and Fordham, and a means to elevate the budget (then around $250K) out of the MAAC guidelines that limited GU, for example, to one full time assistant.

This notion that avoiding scholarship plays a role is simply uninformed. The school, however, does not have some sort of rule against it. Here is a list of sports at Georgetown which allow scholarships:

Baseball
Men's Basketball
Women's Basketball
Men's Cross Country
Women's Cross Country
Field Hockey
Men's Golf
Women's Golf
Men's Lacrosse
Women's Lacrosse
Women's Rowing
Men's Soccer
Women's Soccer
Softball
Men's Swimming
Women's Swimming
Men's Tennis
Women's Tennis
Men's Indoor Track
Women's Indoor Track
Men's Outdoor Track
Women's Outdoor Track
Volleyball

The sports without scholarship possibilities (football, coed sailing, women's sailing, men's lightweight and heavyweight rowing) do so because their leagues do not offer it. If and when the PL changes their mind on the matter, then Georgetown can act. (Note that most of the teams above do not fully fund scholarships.)

Can it fund 63 football scholarships today? No, but that doesn't mean it can't seek to raise funds to be more competitive in the future.

But there's no sense in worrying about scholarships in the PL because, well, it's not happening. The PL leadership resists change because it leads to uncertainty. Changes that could upset the apple cart of its Ivy relationship, affect its cost structure, and the strength in football among its core schools all contribute to the status quo, one that associate members (and AGS posters) must understand, even if they don't agree with it.

[aceinthehole]

First, I think DFW has the read on the PL stuff as good as anyone here.

Second, why is the Big South preceived so high and mighty by some posters?

- This league has no history to speak of.
- It has had just one top-25 and playoff team in its history (Coastal Carolina).
- It is filled with small, private schools that are nnot elite academic institutions.

Other than the extra 23 schollys allowed, what does the BS have that the NEC doesn't?

I'm not trying to get off topic or take a swipe at the Big South, but really its almost identical to the NEC in every way (and in most sports). And that's how most people out there see it.

[EagleDawg]

It's not that the Big South is all high and mighty but rather they have the room to expand, play tough BCS schools from the ACC , Big Ten and SEC (Miss. St., Ga. Tech, Clemson, Penn State, Florida,) and strong teams from the FSC schools in the SOCON and CAA and will have the automatic FCS playoff bid in 2010 and so their is a perception right or wrong that they provide better football opportunities. The Big South is also a higher ranked conference based on the most recent GPI at 9th vs 12. No beat down of the NEC intended but just some info. to be considered. xnodx

[MplsBison]

Obligated to? No, unless the bylaws required it.
Encouraged to? Sure.

Admissions has been supportive over the years and I see no reason why that would not continue.

(And yes, I get your signature's message...)



Again, no.

Georgetown considered a move from the MAAC not because the MAAC was foundering--in fact, the MAAC was a relatively stable nine school league eyeing a 12 team divisional setup, and still considered superior to the NEC in its early days.

Former coach Bob Benson saw the PL as the best way to meet the goals of improved competition (particualrly with Ivy schools who share common application pools with Georgetown), closer ties with Holy Cross and Fordham, and a means to elevate the budget (then around $250K) out of the MAAC guidelines that limited GU, for example, to one full time assistant.

This notion that avoiding scholarship plays a role is simply uninformed. The school, however, does not have some sort of rule against it. Here is a list of sports at Georgetown which allow scholarships:

Baseball
Men's Basketball
Women's Basketball
Men's Cross Country
Women's Cross Country
Field Hockey
Men's Golf
Women's Golf
Men's Lacrosse
Women's Lacrosse
Women's Rowing
Men's Soccer
Women's Soccer
Softball
Men's Swimming
Women's Swimming
Men's Tennis
Women's Tennis
Men's Indoor Track
Women's Indoor Track
Men's Outdoor Track
Women's Outdoor Track
Volleyball

The sports without scholarship possibilities (football, coed sailing, women's sailing, men's lightweight and heavyweight rowing) do so because their leagues do not offer it. If and when the PL changes their mind on the matter, then Georgetown can act. (Note that most of the teams above do not fully fund scholarships.)

Can it fund 63 football scholarships today? No, but that doesn't mean it can't seek to raise funds to be more competitive in the future.

But there's no sense in worrying about scholarships in the PL because, well, it's not happening. The PL leadership resists change because it leads to uncertainty. Changes that could upset the apple cart of its Ivy relationship, affect its cost structure, and the strength in football among its core schools all contribute to the status quo, one that associate members (and AGS posters) must understand, even if they don't agree with it.


There ain't no such thing as just staying the same. You're either getting better or you're getting worse.


PL presidents might think they're maintaining some sort of status quo, but by doing nothing they're in fact positioning themselves to do worse, as Fordham posters have pointing out that the school is looking elsewhere.

[MplsBison]

First, I think DFW has the read on the PL stuff as good as anyone here.

Second, why is the Big South preceived so high and mighty by some posters?

- This league has no history to speak of.
- It has had just one top-25 and playoff team in its history (Coastal Carolina).
- It is filled with small, private schools that are nnot elite academic institutions.

Other than the extra 23 schollys allowed, what does the BS have that the NEC doesn't?

I'm not trying to get off topic or take a swipe at the Big South, but really its almost identical to the NEC in every way (and in most sports). And that's how most people out there see it.


It's the full scholarships vs. 40. That's it.

[ngineer]

Been busy and didn't have time to check this before. I agree with some of the earlier posters that those that 'believe' the PL has some type of 'consipiracy' against Fordham is off the wall. What would be the purpose. The adjusting of the AI, as I understand it, was to bring everyone in a little closer and give some more leeway on a certain number of admissions. I do recall in recent years that Fordham hauled in a good number of recruits for down south that a good number of other PL schools couldn't touch because of admissions. So what's wrong with trying to see that everyone is playing on the same type of field? IMO, FU should join the PL for all sports. It's a natural fit academically, geographically, and demographically.

[MplsBison]

Been busy and didn't have time to check this before. I agree with some of the earlier posters that those that 'believe' the PL has some type of 'consipiracy' against Fordham is off the wall. What would be the purpose. The adjusting of the AI, as I understand it, was to bring everyone in a little closer and give some more leeway on a certain number of admissions. I do recall in recent years that Fordham hauled in a good number of recruits for down south that a good number of other PL schools couldn't touch because of admissions. So what's wrong with trying to see that everyone is playing on the same type of field? IMO, FU should join the PL for all sports. It's a natural fit academically, geographically, and demographically.

Yeah or they could just join the NESCAC. That's also a good fit adacemically, geographically and demographically.


I think they're looking to be MORE competitive in athletics.

[Franks Tanks]

Yeah or they could just join the NESCAC. That's also a good fit adacemically, geographically and demographically.


I think they're looking to be MORE competitive in athletics.

Given the performance of the Fordham basketball teams in the A-10 you can argue that isnt the case. They did still beat Lafayette in basketball however xoopsx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But there's no sense in worrying about scholarships in the PL because, well, it's not happening. The PL leadership resists change because it leads to uncertainty. Changes that could upset the apple cart of its Ivy relationship, affect its cost structure, and the strength in football among its core schools all contribute to the status quo, one that associate members (and AGS posters) must understand, even if they don't agree with it.

I don't totally agree with your assessment, DFW. I do agree change in the PL is slow, and it is (unfortunately) designed to be slow. But I think it's a matter of priorities. Simply put, setting up a workable AI for all sports members (read: men's basketball) is a higher priority than pleasing the football side of things.

Expanding on this point, the ultimate say comes from the PL presidents - and if they don't put football high on their priority list (over, say, navigating the endowment through the financial crisis, expanding the campus, etc. etc.) then things are slow to get done.

When the Ivy League determined in 1948 that "presidents should have the final say" on athletics (the model which the PL adopted), the reason given was that the athletic departments were becoming three-headed monsters on their own, in some cases running the school (as the wisdom went at that time). But that decision has ramifications: if an AD has some more autonomy, a president can delegate more athletics decisions to the athletics department - meaning you can act faster. It's like a large company, like IBM - if the decision of every site has to go through corporate, decisions will be slow, and you'll miss out on opportunities.

Not to say that the IL relationship, cost structure, etc. aren't big considerations in the PL offices - I'm sure they are. But I don't think that in and of itself is what is slowing down the big decisions.

[danefan]

First, I think DFW has the read on the PL stuff as good as anyone here.

Second, why is the Big South preceived so high and mighty by some posters?

- This league has no history to speak of.
- It has had just one top-25 and playoff team in its history (Coastal Carolina).
- It is filled with small, private schools that are nnot elite academic institutions.

Other than the extra 23 schollys allowed, what does the BS have that the NEC doesn't?

I'm not trying to get off topic or take a swipe at the Big South, but really its almost identical to the NEC in every way (and in most sports). And that's how most people out there see it.


It's not that the Big South is all high and mighty but rather they have the room to expand, play tough BCS schools from the ACC , Big Ten and SEC (Miss. St., Ga. Tech, Clemson, Penn State, Florida,) and strong teams from the FSC schools in the SOCON and CAA and will have the automatic FCS playoff bid in 2010 and so their is a perception right or wrong that they provide better football opportunities. The Big South is also a higher ranked conference based on the most recent GPI at 9th vs 12. No beat down of the NEC intended but just some info. to be considered. xnodx


It's the full scholarships vs. 40. That's it.

Its simple - scholarships. Its pretty clear there are giant hurdles in the way of the NEC every allowing the elusive 56.7 scholarships needed to be a counter. I'm unhappy with the NEC for two simple reasons:

1. The league allows teams to schedule DIII schools.
2. The scholarship movement is at a snails pace and seems to have a ceiling at 40.

[Fordham]

Been busy and didn't have time to check this before. I agree with some of the earlier posters that those that 'believe' the PL has some type of 'consipiracy' against Fordham is off the wall. What would be the purpose. The adjusting of the AI, as I understand it, was to bring everyone in a little closer and give some more leeway on a certain number of admissions. I think you're right about this. Rather than being a conspiracy, I think it makes much more sense that the league saw an issue that could benefit 6 out of the 7 members despite the fact that it makes the AI less fair overall or at least moves it further away from what the stated purpose of the AI is. So, no Fordham conspiracy, we're just the acceptable collateral damage from a decision that benefits the rest of the league.

In all seriousness I can't fault them for doing something that benefits the majority so clearly. For the future of our program, though, it is important enough that I don't think we should ever make the PL our home.


The adjusting of the AI, as I understand it, was to bring everyone in a little closer and give some more leeway on a certain number of admissions. That's certainly why the AI was adjusted ... however, in this move, everyone got more leeway (some much more than others), except one school who actually had their band reduced.


I do recall in recent years that Fordham hauled in a good number of recruits for down south that a good number of other PL schools couldn't touch because of admissions. Who were those recruits that you heard about?


So what's wrong with trying to see that everyone is playing on the same type of field? On the surface this is reasonable enough and makes sense. It's also why I admit to being slow to coming around on this topic overall.

The problem is that just because all PL schools can recruit the same players doesn't make it a level playing field or more fair. Here's a quote from the PL press release on changing the AI:

"The academic index is a core principle of the Patriot League that is designed to admit student-athletes that are academically representative of the institution."

It doesn't say that the goal of the AI is to admit players who are representative of other league institutions ... it references players who are representative of the institution they attend. Players at Georgetown or Colgate now get to be representative of the students at Fordham. And, worse, since Fordham is the only school who's lower band went up, our recruits have to BE MORE representative of the students they go to school with than any other institution in the PL. That's where the problem lies.


IMO, FU should join the PL for all sports. It's a natural fit academically, geographically, and demographically. HA! It would be fun to see us push for full PL membership. I could see the first line of a letter from alumni to the AD: "If you think we've had trouble competing in the A10 on the level playing field, let's find out what it can be like when we have the deck stacked against us!"

Seriously if there was less than 5% chance of that happening, I'd put it at less than 1% now. I could certainly be wrong but that decision would alienate whatever sports supporting alums we have to no end since prior to this move all you ever had were the football-first fans in support of the PL (sadly, I was one of them).

[PAT]

Is the AI for the IVY schools based upon the school avg. or the conference avg ?

[PAT]

I think I found the answers to my ?
http://home.comcast.net/~charles517/ivyai.html

[Go...gate]

Aren't we splitting hairs just a bit here? It's not as if Fordham is not another fine school which is pretty damned difficult to get into (Like the rest of the PL schools). How much of a difference are we really talking about?

[ngineer]

I think you're right about this. Rather than being a conspiracy, I think it makes much more sense that the league saw an issue that could benefit 6 out of the 7 members despite the fact that it makes the AI less fair overall or at least moves it further away from what the stated purpose of the AI is. So, no Fordham conspiracy, we're just the acceptable collateral damage from a decision that benefits the rest of the league.

In all seriousness I can't fault them for doing something that benefits the majority so clearly. For the future of our program, though, it is important enough that I don't think we should ever make the PL our home.

That's certainly why the AI was adjusted ... however, in this move, everyone got more leeway (some much more than others), except one school who actually had their band reduced.

Who were those recruits that you heard about?

On the surface this is reasonable enough and makes sense. It's also why I admit to being slow to coming around on this topic overall.

The problem is that just because all PL schools can recruit the same players doesn't make it a level playing field or more fair. Here's a quote from the PL press release on changing the AI:

"The academic index is a core principle of the Patriot League that is designed to admit student-athletes that are academically representative of the institution."

It doesn't say that the goal of the AI is to admit players who are representative of other league institutions ... it references players who are representative of the institution they attend. Players at Georgetown or Colgate now get to be representative of the students at Fordham. And, worse, since Fordham is the only school who's lower band went up, our recruits have to BE MORE representative of the students they go to school with than any other institution in the PL. That's where the problem lies.

HA! It would be fun to see us push for full PL membership. I could see the first line of a letter from alumni to the AD: "If you think we've had trouble competing in the A10 on the level playing field, let's find out what it can be like when we have the deck stacked against us!"

Seriously if there was less than 5% chance of that happening, I'd put it at less than 1% now. I could certainly be wrong but that decision would alienate whatever sports supporting alums we have to no end since prior to this move all you ever had were the football-first fans in support of the PL (sadly, I was one of them).

Dont know how to crop the entire quote to just the 'highlight' so excuse the repetition. I know in speaking with, then, HC Lembo when we made the trip to Fordham (2002?) that went OT and LU won on a 50 yard FG, that he was real concerned about the number of recruits Fordham was getting from Florida and Texas that Lehigh's admissions office would never have given the time of day and felt that 'down the road' this could effect the 'balance' (whatever that is). So that is what I was referring to.

[Fordham]

Dont know how to crop the entire quote to just the 'highlight' so excuse the repetition. I know in speaking with, then, HC Lembo when we made the trip to Fordham (2002?) that went OT and LU won on a 50 yard FG, that he was real concerned about the number of recruits Fordham was getting from Florida and Texas that Lehigh's admissions office would never have given the time of day and felt that 'down the road' this could effect the 'balance' (whatever that is). So that is what I was referring to.

We never really recruited Texas at all until Masella came in 3 years ago, so it's odd that Lembo referenced that, but I understand your overall point. There's clearly some truth to it overall since a school-based AI DOES allow the worst ranked academic school to recruit some kids that others can't.

One difficult thing to hear as Fordham fan is that in the seasons immediately surrounding our two PL championships, we've been accused of bringing in ringers. Yet, other than Georgetown there is no school that can come anywhere near us in terms of our overall futility since joining the conference. Two PL titles overall (shared) in almost 20 years of league play and a horrendous overall league record since we've started yet we've supposedly had this huge advantage over the rest of the field the entire time.

I think there's a much stronger argument that the advantage provided by the school based AI has been the only thing that's kept us from being the Prarie View of the PL all along. And that's clearly where I believe we're headed if we remain in the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One difficult thing to hear as Fordham fan is that in the seasons immediately surrounding our two PL championships, we've been accused of bringing in ringers. Yet, other than Georgetown there is no school that can come anywhere near us in terms of our overall futility since joining the conference. Two PL titles overall (shared) in almost 20 years of league play and a horrendous overall league record since we've started yet we've supposedly had this huge advantage over the rest of the field the entire time.

Some perspective is in order here.

2002 was probably the high-water mark of modern Fordham football - the Eakin/Watson team that made the playoffs and beat Northeastern in the first round of the the playoffs. Since that team, Fordham has had a checkered record:

2002: 10-3 (Dave Clawson)*
2003: 9-3 (Dave Clawson)
2004: 5-6 (Ed Foley)
2005: 2-9 (Ed Foley)
2006: 3-8 (Tom Masella)
2007: 8-4 (Tom Masella)*
2008: 5-6 (Tom Masella)

* Patriot League co-champions

Interestingly, while the Clawson era is seen as a golden time for the Rams, Clawson's career record at Fordham was only 29-29 (with an awful 0-11 season to start his head coaching career). You have to go back to the Division III days to find a coach who finished his time with the Rams with a winning record (Paul Rice).

By any measure, you have to say that Fordham has NEVER enjoyed any huge advantage over any other school they've competed against since reinstating football in 1964. And more recently, the huge historical "advantage" that Fordham was to enjoy due to a lower AI clearly never happened with the "old" AI calculation.

And lest anyone thinks Fordham graduated rockheads in football, try an 82% GSR for 2008 - well over the typical numbers of, say, FBS schools. These include incoming freshmen in 2001, when Clawson was still head coach.

What folks tend to do (and as Fordham fans very well know, I have been publicly guilty of this in the past) is when Fordham seems to be on the rise, folks look around as to "why" - and see the AI numbers, and quickly conclude that that's the reason. But historically, the numbers do not hold up whatsoever - academically or athletically.

***

What I'm frankly still baffled about is how a team that won the league title last year finished 5-6 this year which supposedly had an "AI advantage" over the rest of the league this year. IMO, they didn't lose that much. So what happened?

[Fordham]

Some perspective is in order here.

2002 was probably the high-water mark of modern Fordham football - the Eakin/Watson team that made the playoffs and beat Northeastern in the first round of the the playoffs. Since that team, Fordham has had a checkered record:

2002: 10-3 (Dave Clawson)*
2003: 9-3 (Dave Clawson)
2004: 5-6 (Ed Foley)
2005: 2-9 (Ed Foley)
2006: 3-8 (Tom Masella)
2007: 8-4 (Tom Masella)*
2008: 5-6 (Tom Masella)

* Patriot League co-champions

Interestingly, while the Clawson era is seen as a golden time for the Rams, Clawson's career record at Fordham was only 29-29 (with an awful 0-11 season to start his head coaching career). You have to go back to the Division III days to find a coach who finished his time with the Rams with a winning record (Paul Rice).

By any measure, you have to say that Fordham has NEVER enjoyed any huge advantage over any other school they've competed against since reinstating football in 1964. And more recently, the huge historical "advantage" that Fordham was to enjoy due to a lower AI clearly never happened with the "old" AI calculation.

And lest anyone thinks Fordham graduated rockheads in football, try an 82% GSR for 2008 - well over the typical numbers of, say, FBS schools. These include incoming freshmen in 2001, when Clawson was still head coach.

What folks tend to do (and as Fordham fans very well know, I have been publicly guilty of this in the past) is when Fordham seems to be on the rise, folks look around as to "why" - and see the AI numbers, and quickly conclude that that's the reason. But historically, the numbers do not hold up whatsoever - academically or athletically.

***

What I'm frankly still baffled about is how a team that won the league title last year finished 5-6 this year which supposedly had an "AI advantage" over the rest of the league this year. IMO, they didn't lose that much. So what happened?


Great post overall - thanks.

1. I was wondering if you've been able to catch up with anyone at the league office to see if they have something to add to the conversation or their own spin on things other than 'hey, it was good for 6 out of 7 so we did it".

2. As far as last year's record - we were all clearly disappointed. I think it really points to the huge difference between being the hunted versus the hunter. Interestingly it also happened in the Clawson years you posted above. The '02 league winning team actually returned a huge portion of their team for '03, including record setters Eakin, Dudley and Watson. They were just amazing but, that year also saw us face the best Colgate team in the last few decades and also showed that if you're not ready to play EVERY week when you're the favorites, it's very difficult to win out. Great season for the PL but I think it really does go back to the fact that the differences between the best and the middle of the pack teams are not THAT great.

[PAT]

If the IVY League realizes that there is a difference among the student bodies of the respective schools and adjusts each schools AI accordingly, then why shouldn't the Patriot League. The Ivy adjusts according to the mean AI of their student body. Harvard has the highest AI requirements and according the the article, Cornell has the lowest. If my memory serves me correctly I have not seen any domination by Cornell of Ivy League football.

I have watched many of the kids that I have coached over the years go through the recruiting process with the Ivies, the Pats and the CCA's. It differs from school to school and from league to league. Some of these student/athletes were offered early admission to the Ivies and yet not even accepted for admission by some of the Pat schools. I have also had kids who were given a chance who were well outside of the schools normal admissions range. They were quality kids who were allowed to walk on if they successfully completed their freshman year academics. I think the focus should be on graduation rates, the quality of the person and how well they are a reflection of their respective student body as a whole. I'd be willing to bet that the schools doing the most complaining are the same ones who never take a risk on the admission of any student not just athletes.

When Harvard needs a bagpipe player for their various ceremonies I can guarantee you that no one is trying to find a hole in his transcript but rather just listening to the quality of his play. He fills a need for the institution in return for his full ride.

I would be very curious to see how many of these schools have their endowments enhanced this year by Officers and Board members of companies who have accepted TARP and TARF $$ who are either Alums or have offspring in attendance.

The school who can admit the below norm student and have them successfully graduate should be getting bonus AI points. It's not like winning the League Championship at this level is going to fatten the schools TV contract.

I'd be very curious to see how many of the students on the Honor Role that was published yesterday were not granted admission by the other schools in the conference. That would be pretty telling.

As near as I can tell, overall about 20% of the football players league wide made the Honor Role. I wonder how many schools could randomly grab 100 students and have 20% of them meet the standards for the Honor Role ?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the IVY League realizes that there is a difference among the student bodies of the respective schools and adjusts each schools AI accordingly, then why shouldn't the Patriot League. The Ivy adjusts according to the mean AI of their student body. Harvard has the highest AI requirements and according the the article, Cornell has the lowest. If my memory serves me correctly I have not seen any domination by Cornell of Ivy League football.

There's a good reason for this: sometime in the mid-1990s the Ivy League did what the Patriot League is doing now: instituting a hard floor, and setting up a league-wide AI. And who has benefited the most? From 1981 to 1988, Harvard went 43-33-3 - not bad, until you consider that from 2001 to 2008 Harvard went 64-15, with two undefeated seasons.


I have watched many of the kids that I have coached over the years go through the recruiting process with the Ivies, the Pats and the CCA's. It differs from school to school and from league to league. Some of these student/athletes were offered early admission to the Ivies and yet not even accepted for admission by some of the Pat schools. I have also had kids who were given a chance who were well outside of the schools normal admissions range. They were quality kids who were allowed to walk on if they successfully completed their freshman year academics. I think the focus should be on graduation rates, the quality of the person and how well they are a reflection of their respective student body as a whole. I'd be willing to bet that the schools doing the most complaining are the same ones who never take a risk on the admission of any student not just athletes.

The part I highlighted is probably the biggest reason why the Patriot League's AI needed reform. Their AI calculation had become so restrictive that Patriot League players were losing out to the Ivy League - and not just one school.

But I do disagree that the schools "doing the complaining" aren't schools that don't take risks in admission for any students - while I understand that could be a factor. There structure of the AI could be so restrictive that they can't do the same types of things that other schools can do to get football recruits. That's what "Fordham" is saying.


I would be very curious to see how many of these schools have their endowments enhanced this year by Officers and Board members of companies who have accepted TARP and TARF $$ who are either Alums or have offspring in attendance.

So would I. One of the most underreported parts of the whole economic mess is how the "best and brightest" from Ivy League schools came up with the "new paradigms" and computer models that put the economy in the crapper. Of course, many of these same people also guided Harvard, Princeton and Yale to have endowments larger than many third world countries, too.

The effect on shrinking endowments throughout higher education affects all athletic departments everywhere, in some cases threatening some programs to disband. That's something I will be tackling in future months for sure - but something to consider for private schools is that tuitions may end up getting raised in order to make up for shortfalls.


The school who can admit the below norm student and have them successfully graduate should be getting bonus AI points. It's not like winning the League Championship at this level is going to fatten the schools TV contract.

I'd go as far as to say that the great majority of these kids DO graduate and do well at the institution because they have to go through different layers to get admitted. There have been a lot of studies about this in different contexts, but I've found a heck of a lot of positives at places like Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate and others, and few downsides.


I'd be very curious to see how many of the students on the Honor Role that was published yesterday were not granted admission by the other schools in the conference. That would be pretty telling.

I don't know about the Patriot League, but I can tell you the admissions offices of the Ivy League talk a great deal about these types of things (Athlete X couldn't get through our admissions department, yet he's suiting up for Y). But I agree, I'd love to know those numbers too.


As near as I can tell, overall about 20% of the football players league wide made the Honor Role. I wonder how many schools could randomly grab 100 students and have 20% of them meet the standards for the Honor Role ?

Damned straight! The Patriot League routinely leads the nation in these sorts of things.

[PAT]

So should Fordham insist on a skewed AI as they do in the Ivy between Harvard and Cornell or should they try to get in another League ??

I am not sure I get the relationship between the geographic area in which a school recruits and the intelligence of the particular student/athlete.

Are the posters on this thread intimating that kids from Texas and Florida are generally dumb or I am not getting the point that they are trying to make?

[Syntax Error]

Damned straight! The Patriot League routinely leads the nation in these sorts of things.More than the PFL?

"A league record 398 student-athletes from nine member institutions were named to the Pioneer Football League Academic Honor Roll for the Fall 2008 semester."
http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php/2009/01/29/pioneer-football-league-announces-fall-2?blog=2

[Franks Tanks]

More than the PFL?

"A league record 398 student-athletes from nine member institutions were named to the Pioneer Football League Academic Honor Roll for the Fall 2008 semester."
http://www.championshipsubdivisionnews.com/index.php/2009/01/29/pioneer-football-league-announces-fall-2?blog=2

The PFL and PL have different standard for Honor Roll inclusion

To make the Patriot League list a student-athlete must earn a letter and have a 3.2 or better.

The Pioneer League simply requires that you are a member of the team and have a 3.0. The criteria is very different so its hard to compare.

[kirkblitz]

for those of you unaware, the Patriot League recently changed how the AI is calculated for PL schools while not moving on scholarships ... and this is something that is already having a huge impact on our recruiting and is accepted by most at Fordham as a quick ticket to oblivion for the future of our pogram. Whether or not it's intentional, the belief throughout the school (from students, alums and the administration) is that the PL wants to have Fordham as the Columbia of the PL (perennial bottom feeders).

So now we're caught between a rock and a hard place. An unwelcoming current home that we want to leave asap but seemingly no where to go. We also spend as much on the program as most of the top schools in FCS but are hamstrung in how we can use it.

So if we want to leave the PL, what are our options? I'd love to hear feedback here. Other than going independent, which I don't see as a very good option, I'm not sure we have any options other than watching the rapid demise of our program while staying in the PL.

*NEC? NEC guys - is this an option?

*Big South? Stony Brook guys - how has this worked out? Is it viewed by you all as a stop gap measure until more conference shake-ups occur? I have no idea if Fordham would ever go this route but just throwing it out there and interested if there's any chance the Big South would even be interested in having another Northern school in it.

*Any hope of a near term solution provided by current A10 members? I know this has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere but current A10 members UMASS, URI, Duquesne, Dayton, Richmond and Fordham would certainly form a nice all-sport base for a conference and then look to add a few more football only members.

Cant' really come up with anything that's THAT good (not that any of these are good or likely) but I will tell you that finding PL alternatives are definitely in alot of discussions occuring up in Rose Hill.

It really stinks too, since I was always one of the biggest advocates of the PL within active Fordham Gridiron alums. My apologies to all of my PL breathren who post here as well since your schools are all incredible ones to be affiliated with but unfortunately I've forever abandoned all hope that the PL leadership can ever represent Fordham interests ever again (even if they finally move on scholarships before we move).


Big South xpeacex

[ngineer]

So should Fordham insist on a skewed AI as they do in the Ivy between Harvard and Cornell or should they try to get in another League ??

I am not sure I get the relationship between the geographic area in which a school recruits and the intelligence of the particular student/athlete.

Are the posters on this thread intimating that kids from Texas and Florida are generally dumb or I am not getting the point that they are trying to make?

Not in the least. What is known is that Florida and Texas are treasure troves for football, so everyone is down there pursuing alot of the same guys. With the admissions requirements, the available pool of talent for the PL is much smaller than what other schools can pursue. Previous comments were relative to recruits who were proposed by alumni contacts in the areas, but after doing the homework, it was realized the candidate would not be admitted, but then turns up on someone else's roster.

[Seawolf97]

Big South xpeacex

Exactly. I dont see any new conferences in the Northeast anytime soon and the CAA is going to get through its size issues without losing anyone.
So unless they go Independent there really isnt much to chose from over the next 5 years or so.

[Wildcat80]

I thought the PL was trending to scholarships in the near future...following bball? If not I'd guess the NEC or future America East would be a logical home but both are scholarship. Doubt Big South wants more travel to northeast. Can Fordham fund 63 schollies?

[Ken_Z]

if the PL did not desparately need to conserve membership, i would have no problem seeing Fordham disappear and pursue their dreams of glory elsewhere. we could look forward to solid entertainment reading their fans posts ten years from now about how their higher academic standards and past association with the PL were keeping them from being competitive with the other schools in their bigger better pond.

the much more likely reality is that we will adopt scholarships and will expand and Fordham will become expendable, but they just won't leave. even if i am wrong on the scholarship issue, i do not believe Fordham will leave.

[DFW HOYA]

the much more likely reality is that we will adopt scholarships and will expand and Fordham will become expendable, but they just won't leave. even if i am wrong on the scholarship issue, i do not believe Fordham will leave.

The likely reality is that the PL presidents will not move to add scholarships during a recession and a period of falling university endowments. Short of losing the autobid, it's status quo, and Fordham isn't likely to get up and leave on its own.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The likely reality is that the PL presidents will not move to add scholarships during a recession and a period of falling university endowments. Short of losing the autobid, it's status quo, and Fordham isn't likely to get up and leave on its own.

Unless they need to add football scholarships to bag a school that will join in all sports. I wouldn't count this particular possibility out so quickly.

[Ken_Z]

The likely reality is that the PL presidents will not move to add scholarships during a recession and a period of falling university endowments. Short of losing the autobid, it's status quo, and Fordham isn't likely to get up and leave on its own.


i did not say when scholarships would be added. if not for the recession and decline in endowments, i would predict that it would be very soon, likely announced this summer. however, given current conditions, it would be difficult to justify right now even if the schools strongly supported the move. clearly, there is not that overwhelming support, so i agree about the short term continuing to defer this issue, but i think folks may be surprised that it happens sooner than they think. seems we do agree Fordham is not going anywhere soon.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think that this thread, which was started in January, makes for some fascinating reading in retrospect of Fordham's decision to go scholarship and, in essence, to punt on the Patriot League.

[MplsBison]

If Fordham's decision causes the PL to get real scholarships (you know...where you give players money based on how good they are!), then it was the correct decision.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

I like the CAA. I'm not leaving unless they kick me out. And then I will sue them when they try.

I hate it when I agree with a UMass guy

[kdinva]

In a perfect world, I'd say find room and get a dedicated FB facility, not multipurpose like Parsons.............but I know that can't happen........yet.

(and I know that's not the type of answer being requested here)>

[Go...gate]

I think we will look back on Fordham's bold move, Marist's affiliation with the PFL and declaration that it is primarily a basketball school, and Norteastern's dropping of FB as important milestones on whatever the PL does.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Marist's . . . declaration that it is primarily a basketball school.

Don't look now, but Lafayette basketball is quietly 4-1 OOC this season and they play Georgetown this Saturday. Other PL schools are ranked well ahead of both Marist and Fordham in BB. In lacrosse the PL is the top D1 conference in the nation. The PL is a lot more than just football, and in the long run, I think it's a big mistake for schools like Fordham and Marist not to want to participate. Football will work itself out, and the core PL schools will be all the stronger for it.

[DFW HOYA]

In lacrosse the PL is the top D1 conference in the nation.

With the realignment of lacrosse conferences in 2010, the PL is no better than the 4th best conference:

1. ACC
2. Big East
3. Ivy
4. Patriot
5. CAA
6. ECAC
7. America East
8. MAAC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_lacrosse#NCAA_Division_I_Men.27s_Lacrosse

[Bogus Megapardus]

With the realignment of lacrosse conferences in 2010, the PL is no better than the 4th best conference:

1. ACC
2. Big East
3. Ivy
4. Patriot
5. CAA
6. ECAC
7. America East
8. MAAC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_lacrosse#NCAA_Division_I_Men.27s_Lacrosse

We'll see about that.

[Wildcat80]

Just a reminder to all in your league realignments to leave out NORTHEASTERN. They dropped the ball this week. GO CATS!:D

[Redwyn]

With the realignment of lacrosse conferences in 2010, the PL is no better than the 4th best conference:

1. ACC
2. Big East
3. Ivy
4. Patriot
5. CAA
6. ECAC
7. America East
8. MAAC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_lacrosse#NCAA_Division_I_Men.27s_Lacrosse

America East is really that low? We do have some sincere bottom-feeders but weren't Albany, SBU, and UMBC all ranked simultaneously last season? Is it from Hartford, Vermont, and Bingo's string of year in and year out horrible seasons?

[Dane96]

With the realignment of lacrosse conferences in 2010, the PL is no better than the 4th best conference:

1. ACC
2. Big East
3. Ivy
4. Patriot
5. CAA
6. ECAC
7. America East
8. MAAC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_lacrosse#NCAA_Division_I_Men.27s_Lacrosse

The only "holy cow" conference is the ACC. After that...the top 2-3 in every conference but the MAAC and ECAC could hang in the Top 10-15 on a given year. There is no clear cut strength there...and frankly, if you were going that route the IVY's and Patriot will not be there based on recent years. Cornell has been a star...as has NAVY..., but Army and Princeton have been hit or miss. The rest of those conferences are pedestrian, with Colgate having more solid years than others.

[JD51]

Don't look now, but Lafayette basketball is quietly 4-1 OOC this season and they play Georgetown this Saturday. Other PL schools are ranked well ahead of both Marist and Fordham in BB. In lacrosse the PL is the top D1 conference in the nation. The PL is a lot more than just football, and in the long run, I think it's a big mistake for schools like Fordham and Marist not to want to participate. Football will work itself out, and the core PL schools will be all the stronger for it.

Marist probably would have been a more than willing participant had an invitation been extended. Whether or not they could afford to is an entirely different question.

[aceinthehole]

The only "holy cow" conference is the ACC. After that...the top 2-3 in every conference but the MAAC and ECAC could hang in the Top 10-15 on a given year. There is no clear cut strength there...and frankly, if you were going that route the IVY's and Patriot will not be there based on recent years. Cornell has been a star...as has NAVY..., but Army and Princeton have been hit or miss. The rest of those conferences are pedestrian, with Colgate having more solid years than others.

Don't forget begining in 2010-11 season, the NEC begins MLax. With Bryant and Quinnipiac at the top, I think the NEC will build itself into a respectable league. Just like in football, the NEC is investing and building up MLax.

[Go...gate]

Marist probably would have been a more than willing participant had an invitation been extended. Whether or not they could afford to is an entirely different question.

Someday, the Patriot League may regret this.

[ngineer]

The only "holy cow" conference is the ACC. After that...the top 2-3 in every conference but the MAAC and ECAC could hang in the Top 10-15 on a given year. There is no clear cut strength there...and frankly, if you were going that route the IVY's and Patriot will not be there based on recent years. Cornell has been a star...as has NAVY..., but Army and Princeton have been hit or miss. The rest of those conferences are pedestrian, with Colgate having more solid years than others.

In terms of overall league strength, I think I would put the PL ahead of the IL in lacaross. Acknowledging Cornell's recent success and Princeton's historical strength, the IL is fairly amorphous across the remaining 6. Navy has shown well in recent years, with Army, Colgate and Bucknell being consistently strong. Lehigh and Lafayette have improved , with Lehigh knocking off several top 20 teams last year. Consistency is the key.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette ha[s] improved

xlolx . . . . :) . . . . xconfusedx . . . . xsmhx . . . . ummmm in my dreams, sure. Leopard Lax has no excuse whatsoever not to be near the top of the PL. It's been played forever in Pardsville. A little bit could go a long way here.

[carney2]

Lacrosse? La-freakin'-crosse?!!!!!

You couldn't find enough people who care about this second level crap to fill a McDonald's mens room, yet you have hijacked an entire AGS thread over it. You're all nuts.

[MplsBison]

Lacrosse? La-freakin'-crosse?!!!!!

You couldn't find enough people who care about this second level crap to fill a McDonald's mens room, yet you have hijacked an entire AGS thread over it. You're all nuts.

Hockey...soccer...lacrosse.....all those low-scoring games where you move around continuously trying to put something into a net that is being guarded.


Bo-ring!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hockey...soccer...lacrosse.....all those low-scoring games where you move around continuously trying to put something into a net that is being guarded.


Bo-ring!

Soccer - yes. It will be that way until the off-sides rule is modified (which will be never). Lacrosse is a fairly high scoring game. It does not translate well to television because it's very difficult to see the ball at 120 mph. It's been played in my family for four generations, so I have something of a fondness for the game.

[DFW HOYA]

How did lacrosse get into a Fordham thread? Dop they even play lacrosse at Fordham? Is Fordham considering CAA lacrosse as well? xlolx

BTW, lacrosse averages 18-21 goals a game. If you see two in a soccer game, that's a bonus.
http://www.laxpower.com/common/Scoring2009.php

[Ken_Z]

You're all nuts.

pot, kettle....kettle, pot

[soccerguy315]

Hockey...soccer...lacrosse.....all those low-scoring games where you move around continuously trying to put something into a net that is being guarded.


Bo-ring!

xnonoxxnonoxxnonoxxnonoxxnonox

lacrosse is not low scoring.

And you realize that someone could call football boring because "they play for 5 seconds and then wait for 30 seconds, and then play for 5 seconds again..."

[Bogus Megapardus]

Do they even play lacrosse at Fordham?

No, but they should, as should Columbia.

[OLPOP]

Fordham does have a club lacrosse team, and some fans would like to see it as a varsity sport. However, there's a real space problem.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Fordham does have a club lacrosse team, and some fans would like to see it as a varsity sport. However, there's a real space problem.

Lafayette has a club wresting team, too, but the Lehigh snobs say that doesn't count.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lafayette has a club wresting team, too, but the Lehigh snobs say that doesn't count.

Get some ECAC champions, then get back to us. xlolx