CAA athletic directors to study 14-team puzzle

[bostonspider]

From the Richmond Times Dispatch

-- Colonial Athletic Association athletic directors will convene in Washington next week and discuss the league's coming football expansion.

In general, the agenda is this question: Can a 14-team football conference work?

The ADs will be together for the NCAA convention.

Old Dominion begins playing CAA football in 2011. Georgia State is scheduled for a 2012 CAA football arrival. The Colonial already has 12 football members, including the University of Richmond, William and Mary and James Madison. Starting Wednesday, CAA directors of athletics and Tom Yeager, the commissioner of the league since its creation in 1985, will explore options.

Yeager yesterday said among those options are 1) one league with a pair of seven-team divisions, and 2) a split into two leagues, based on geography. The CAA also includes Delaware, Villanova, Towson, Hofstra, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Northeastern and Rhode Island.

If the choice is a 14-team league with a pair of seven-team divisions, Yeager believes an eight-game CAA obligation would continue. Yeager hopes a consensus is reached next week, allowing the league to go forward with scheduling for 2011 and beyond. The CAA has a strong interest in reducing travel costs, if possible, while maintaining traditional conference rivalries.

Charlotte announced four months ago that it intends to launch a football program in 2013, if the school can raise sufficient funds. Yeager said he has not heard from Charlotte representatives about any interest they may have in the Colonial. -- John O'Connor

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/sports/college/college_football/article/CAAF08_20090107-220912/171882/

[bostonspider]

I guess you could do two 7 team leagues with:

North
UMaine
UNH
UMass
Northeastern
URI
Hofstra
Towson

South
Delaware
Villanova
JMU
Richmond
W&M
ODU
Georgia State

While it might make sense to put Towson in the South and Nova in the North geographically, it seems better to keep Nova and the Blue Hens together in one division / league.

To these two 7 team leagues you could conceivably add Albany to the North and Charlotte to the South.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

If GState is only going to be in the FCS for a few sesons as people seem to think, why bring this conundrum on yourself?

[Eight Legger]

It would be tricky to play a fair league schedule with that many teams. You'd always have arguments about why so-and-so in the South got to play Towson and URI from the North while another South team had to play UMass and Maine, etc. Of course we have that to some degree now, but it would get worse with 14 teams.

[proasu89]

7 teams in each division means that you will only play 2 teams from the other division. Sounds like you would need a championship game between the 2 divisions in order to determine the auto bid.

[Dane96]

Cant happen-- championship games are against the current rules.

[whitey]

7 teams in each division means that you will only play 2 teams from the other division. Sounds like you would need a championship game between the 2 divisions in order to determine the auto bid.

Not really. Correct me if I'm wrong but the autobid has been determined simply by a coin flip in the past and can continue to be done that way in the future. The winner of the CAA North and the winner of the CAA South (if tied) will always make the playoffs anyway.

[whitey]

I can't see the league splitting in two based on geography. IMO it is much more likely that they agree to have two 7 team divisions. Bostonspiders, conference split makes the most sense and I hope they go with that. Rotating the north vs. south teams is not going to be easy. I think it already kind of sucks that we only see the north teams twice every 4 years.

No matter what the result of the discussion is its going to be interesting.

[89Hen]

From the Richmond Times Dispatch

-- Colonial Athletic Association athletic directors will convene in Washington next week
Still waiting by the phone for my invite to join the discussion. :)

[appfan2008]

SPLIT YOURSELVES!!!

[bluehenbillk]

I guess you could do two 7 team leagues with:

North
UMaine
UNH
UMass
Northeastern
URI
Hofstra
Towson

South
Delaware
Villanova
JMU
Richmond
W&M
ODU
Georgia State

While it might make sense to put Towson in the South and Nova in the North geographically, it seems better to keep Nova and the Blue Hens together in one division / league.



Seems the most logical way to do it.

[mcveyrl]

SPLIT YOURSELVES!!!

Who gets the autobid?

[appfan2008]

Who gets the autobid?

make a deal with the ncaa before you do so so that somehow they both do.... i dont know... it just doesnt seem right to have 14 teams in a league!

[Cobblestone]

I guess you could do two 7 team leagues with:

North
UMaine
UNH
UMass
Northeastern
URI
Hofstra
Towson

South
Delaware
Villanova
JMU
Richmond
W&M
ODU
Georgia State



I agree. This makes good sense.

[henfan]

If GState is only going to be in the FCS for a few sesons as people seem to think, why bring this conundrum on yourself?

Because the other GSU is likely to be in the FCS much longer than what these people seem to think?xnodx

I don't have any tremendous insight but this group seems committed to staying together into the indefinite future. Many of these teams have rivalries extending back decades, which aren't likely to end soon.

If I had to bet, I'd place money on two 7-team divisions. In this scenario, there would be an opportunity to move UD or VU to the North split, while making a concession to preserve the annual rivalry. UD probably has a longer, deeper FB relationship with the schools in the North than does VU. Either school would have to fly to Orono or Atlanta and VU & UD are so close to one another that travel would be a wash either way.

[Syntax Error]

SPLIT YOURSELVES!!!fer gawds sake yes... should've been done already... a 14 team coagulation is not a league, it is a monstrosity... what is happening with AE football?

[henfan]

what is happening with AE football?

Hear that hollow echo? That's what remains of the prospect of AEC FB. Regretfully, that ship sailed in Oct. 2000.xsmhx

Incidentally, the proposed AEC league would have been just as large as the one eventually sponsored by the CAA.

[danefan]

fer gawds sake yes... should've been done already... a 14 team coagulation is not a league, it is a monstrosity... what is happening with AE football?

Nothing that I've heard.

We (Albany alumns and fans) are anxisouly awaiting an announcement on the future of the program. I suspect, and hope, it will come shortly after this CAA meeting.

I don't expect anything drastic out of this meeting, except a realignment of divisions. Sadly (for Albany fans) I feel we'll be stuck in the mud at 40 rides and in the NEC for the next 5 years until one of the CAA teams decides it better to move onto to FBS or folds (god forbid).

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Because the other GSU is likely to be in the FCS much longer than what these people seem to think?xnodx

I don't have any tremendous insight but this group seems committed to staying together into the indefinite future. Many of these teams have rivalries extending back decades, which aren't likely to end soon.

If I had to bet, I'd place money on two 7-team divisions. In this scenario, there would be an opportunity to move UD or VU to the North split, while making a concession to preserve the annual rivalry. UD probably has a longer, deeper FB relationship with the schools in the North than does VU. Either school would have to fly to Orono or Atlanta and VU & UD are so close to one another that travel would be a wash either way.

It would be the biggest conference in all of college football. Too big if you ask me. If they make a 14-team league, then all CAA teams need to be forced to keep the last week of the RS open so a championship game can be played.

[Syntax Error]

Incidentally, the proposed AEC league would have been just as large as the one eventually sponsored by the CAA.12-14 football participants in the AE? xeyebrowx

[henfan]

It would be the biggest conference in all of college football. Too big if you ask me. If they make a 14-team league, then all CAA teams need to be forced to keep the last week of the RS open so a championship game can be played.

In all honesty and with no intended malice to my comment, no one will be asking you (or me!)

The NCAA imposes no size limitations on conferences and there's nothing in Division I regulations that would force a FB conference to determine its FB champion with a postseason tournament. In short, it ain't gonna happen and it's not the least bit important.

The CAA will continue to get its one FB postseason autobid and however many other at large bids the PSC thinks it deserves, regardless of how its champion is determined.

[Syntax Error]

It would be the biggest conference in all of college football. Too big if you ask me. If they make a 14-team league, then all CAA teams need to be forced to keep the last week of the RS open so a championship game can be played.Then would be a good case for conference playoff bid limits by those that suggest it.

[henfan]

12-14 football participants in the AE? xeyebrowx

Yup, 12-13. That's common knowledge.

The AEC rejected a 2000 proposal under which they would have absorbed the CAA and assumed control of the A-10 league. The FB league would have included Maine, UNH, NU, HU, UD, TU, W&M and JMU as full members, UMass, URI, UR and VU as affiliates. ODU, who did not have FB at the time, was also included in the expansion plan.

Here's the presentation made at the AEC-CAA merger meeting:
http://www.uvm.edu/~tpatters/athletics/confexpand_files/frame.htm


Then would be a good case for conference playoff bid limits by those that suggest it.

Good luck with that.

[danefan]

Yup, 12-13. That's common knowledge.

The AEC rejected a 2000 proposal under which they would have absorbed the CAA and assumed control of the A-10 league. The FB league would have included Maine, UNH, NU, HU, UD, TU, W&M and JMU as full members, UMass, URI, UR and VU as affiliates. ODU, who did not have FB at the time, was also included in the expansion plan.

If you do a search on this board, you'll come across a Power Point presentation I had linked to one of my messages. I was the presentation made at the merger meeting, housed on UVt's website. I don't have the inclination to look for it right now.

There was also another proposal in 2004/5 that included an AE FB league containing:

Albany
Stony Brook
Maine
Rhode Island
Northeastern
New Hampshire
UMass
Hofstra

We saw the proposal at an Albany alumni function.
That was apparently rejected also.

[Syntax Error]

Yup, 12-13.I was on the record at the time that two conferences should emerge, not one behemoth. Still am. xnodx

[henfan]

I was on the record at the time that two conferences should emerge, not one behemoth. Still am. xnodx

It's perfectly fine to support the theory of two separate conferences. Acknowledging the reality of why that sort of plan doesn't appear imminently workable for this particularl group of schools requires a deeper level of understanding of the circumstances, IMO.xnodx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

It's perfectly fine to support the theory of two separate conferences. Acknowledging the reality of why that sort of plan doesn't appear imminently workable for this group requires a deeper level of understanding, IMO.xnodx

Bingo!!!!!! xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx

xthumbsupx xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

[GannonFan]

In all honesty and with no intended malice to my comment, no one will be asking you (or me!)

The NCAA imposes no size limitations on conferences and there's nothing in Division I regulations that would force a FB conference to determine its FB champion with a postseason tournament. In short, it ain't gonna happen and it's not the least bit important.

The CAA will continue to get its one FB postseason autobid and however many other at large bids the PSC thinks it deserves, regardless of how its champion is determined.

Henfan's absolutely correct. The size of the conference matters nothing to the NCAA. And as for the champion, again, with a playoff system, who really cares who the conference champion is? The conference is obviously going to get 2 or more teams in the playoff every year, like they have for about 2 decades anyway, so why does it matter? The only people who moan about the CAA not necessarily having a definitive champion are non-CAA people, and tough luck.

I don't see the CAA breaking up anytime soon. I think there may be a push eventually to have the schools that can move up en masse to FBS, but that's a decade out in the future at least, maybe even more if this economic malaise continues. And there's no way they play more than 8 conference games - there won't be a 9 game mandate here.

Why the size of the CAA matters so much to non-CAA people always amazes me. xlolx

[MplsBison]

Drop the American East schools, back to 12.

[OL FU]

Henfan's absolutely correct. The size of the conference matters nothing to the NCAA. And as for the champion, again, with a playoff system, who really cares who the conference champion is? The conference is obviously going to get 2 or more teams in the playoff every year, like they have for about 2 decades anyway, so why does it matter? The only people who moan about the CAA not necessarily having a definitive champion are non-CAA people, and tough luck.

I don't see the CAA breaking up anytime soon. I think there may be a push eventually to have the schools that can move up en masse to FBS, but that's a decade out in the future at least, maybe even more if this economic malaise continues. And there's no way they play more than 8 conference games - there won't be a 9 game mandate here.

Why the size of the CAA matters so much to non-CAA people always amazes me. xlolx


Doesn't matter to me.

Considering personal taste in conference sizes, I wouldn't like it. In fact there has been talk of the SoCon adding two more schools to the current 12 and nothing said that they would not be football schools. I wouldn't like it for reasons I have stated before but I also understand it is my personal view.

[mcveyrl]

make a deal with the ncaa before you do so so that somehow they both do.... i dont know... it just doesnt seem right to have 14 teams in a league!

I don't like a 14 team league either, but the autobid is where the idea of splitting comes to a screeching hault.

First, it's already been stated (and is probably true) that the winner of each division will probably make the playoffs - one as an AQ and on as an AL.

Second, and most importantly I think, is that there's no autobids out there to give another conference unless you expand the playoffs...again. Or take one away from another conference, and I don't think the NCAA wants to deal with that headache.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

There was also another proposal in 2004/5 that included an AE FB league containing:

Albany
Stony Brook
Maine
Rhode Island
Northeastern
New Hampshire
UMass
Hofstra

We saw the proposal at an Albany alumni function.
That was apparently rejected also.

Think about that Dane. Despite seeing it in a proposal, how feasible was it?

Hofstra was an all sports member of the CAA. They weren't playing AE Football without coming back to AE for all sports. Do you think that was happening? Any outside chance was crushed when Northeastern joined the CAA in all sports. So, now we have two "rejections" right there. Add in UMass who wasn't in a heartbeat joining AE for all sports and would never leave an AQ league for a start up.

And then there's Maine, URI and UNH also leaving an AQ conference as well as leaving one that provides the competition providing at large bids.

And then there's Boston University who defeated the effort to start AE Hockey. And they have a hockey team! Why would they be interested in AE Football?

Despite starting club football, Vermont isn't restoring their program, if ever, until after they build new facilities for their basketball and hockey programs. And that is starting to look like it might take as much as a decade to happen. Why would UVM have any interest in AE Football?

Hasn't UMBC already turned down a significant offer from the Ravens to buid facilities that would have allowed them to start a scholarship program? Why would they care about AE Football?

Have Binghamton or Hartford ever shown any interest in football? Hartford was close to starting a hockey program, but I've never heard any rumblings about football.

Over on the AE Forum there has always been off and on again discussion about how Maine's former AD Patrick Nero got the AE Commissioner slot because he promised the presidents he would get football and hockey into the fold of AE sports. Even with Providence and the Chestnut Hill Beagles in favor of moving Hockey East under the America East banner, he couldn't make it happen over BU's objections. JMHO, but that was a slam dunk compared to sponsoring football.

Sorry, but I don't see the AE leadership needed or the intestinal fortitude of the AE members to see it ever sponsor football without a complete all sports conference implosion occuring.

[89Hen]

Drop the American East schools, back to 12.
Better yet, drop all football only affiliates. Not that I have anything against any of them, but I like the idea of an all-sports conference.

[danefan]

Think about that Dane. Despite seeing it in a proposal, how feasible was it?

Hofstra was an all sports member of the CAA. They weren't playing AE Football without coming back to AE for all sports. Do you think that was happening? Any outside chance was crushed when Northeastern joined the CAA in all sports. So, now we have two "rejections" right there. Add in UMass who wasn't in a heartbeat joining AE for all sports and would never leave an AQ league for a start up.

And then there's Maine, URI and UNH also leaving an AQ conference as well as leaving one that provides the competition providing at large bids.

And then there's Boston University who defeated the effort to start AE Hockey. And they have a hockey team! Why would they be interested in AE Football?

Despite starting club football, Vermont isn't restoring their program, if ever, until after they build new facilities for their basketball and hockey programs. And that is starting to look like it might take as much as a decade to happen. Why would UVM have any interest in AE Football?

Hasn't UMBC already turned down a significant offer from the Ravens to buid facilities that would have allowed them to start a scholarship program? Why would they care about AE Football?

Have Binghamton or Hartford ever shown any interest in football? Hartford was close to starting a hockey program, but I've never heard any rumblings about football.

Over on the AE Forum there has always been off and on again discussion about how Maine's former AD Patrick Nero got the AE Commissioner slot because he promised the presidents he would get football and hockey into the fold of AE sports. Even with Providence and the Chestnut Hill Beagles in favor of moving Hockey East under the America East banner, he couldn't make it happen over BU's objections. JMHO, but that was a slam dunk compared to sponsoring football.

Sorry, but I don't see the AE leadership needed or the intestinal fortitude of the AE members to see it ever sponsor football without a complete all sports conference implosion occuring.

I'm not saying it was feasible. I'm just saying it was a presentation that was not prepared by UAlbany, but was given. I found it highly doubtful once they included Hofstra.

I've come to the conlusion that the only way Albany gets a shot at the CAA is if the conference splits into two separate conferences. Then, and only then, will Albany be in the discussion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I am way on the record as saying that some sort of breakup ought to happen - with autobids for both conferences. If that happens, forget about America East sponsorship - it will be a "New Yankee" conference for sure, administered (read: owned part and parcel) by the CAA.

What appeared to happen this year was that the playoff subcommittee seemed to "pretend" that there were two conferences: a CAA North (with two bids: UNH and Maine) and a CAA South (with three bids: Richmond, Villanova, and JMU). For those that are hoping for a 14 team conference, you have to ask yourselves: how long will the playoff subcommittee be willing to put up with that charade? Especially since William & Mary felt "woofed" at the hands of a team from the North that wasn't as good. Clearly you can't count on the fact that the playoff subcommittee will do that every year.

Having said that, there are other considerations here. Start with:
* How important are autobids? Some here think that they don't matter at all, but I disagree. (An autobid might have solved some of these weird issues between taking a balance of CAA North and CAA South teams.)
* How important are conference championships? Some here think they don't matter at all, but I disagree. (I'm willing to bet JMU will be making rings saying "CAA Champion, 2008".)
* Is the fault line "geographical" (draw a line at Newark, DE - all schools south of Philadelphia are the CAA, north are New Yankee), "geographical plus Villanova" (same, but switch Villanova and Towson in the north and south) - or the most intriguing of all, "CAA member versus affiliates" (Hosftra, N'Eastern, and the rest of the CAA full members on one side, non-members in the New Yankee)?

(For clarification, that would mean the following:
New Yankee:
UMass
UNH
Maine
URI
Richmond
Villanova

CAA:
James Madison
Villanova
William & Mary
Delaware
Towson
Hofstra
Georgia State
ODU
Northeastern)

There are clear disadvantages to both solutions - either staying together, or separating. It will be interesting what they come up with.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Better yet, drop all football only affiliates. Not that I have anything against any of them, but I like the idea of an all-sports conference.

You've got to believe this is on the table, right? I think it is.

[89Hen]

You've got to believe this is on the table, right? I think it is.
I've been saying it for years, but henfan will tell you 'no way'... he has Yeager's personal assurance that he would never consider it. xsmiley_wix

[henfan]

And there's no way they play more than 8 conference games - there won't be a 9 game mandate here.

I'd agree and that appears to be what Yeager has indicated. The A-10 briefly tried the 9-game conference schedule in the past but it was quickly abandoned. Some schools wanted the availability of scheduling 3 nonconference games each year.


I've been saying it for years, but henfan will tell you 'no way'... he has Yeager's personal assurance that he would never consider it. xsmiley_wix

I haven't read CAA membership bylaws but there most certainly are release clauses both on part of the conference and its member teams & affiliates. Just highly unlikely that any teams would leave without some serious breach of contract and in the absence of somewhere else to play.

In all seriousness, what Yeager said is that the conference had no interest in removing affiliates.

[89Hen]

or the most intriguing of all, "CAA member versus affiliates" (Hosftra, N'Eastern, and the rest of the CAA full members on one side, non-members in the New Yankee)?

(For clarification, that would mean the following:
New Yankee:
UMass
UNH
Maine
URI
Richmond
Villanova

CAA:
James Madison
Villanova
William & Mary
Delaware
Towson
Hofstra
Georgia State
ODU
Northeastern)

There are clear disadvantages to both solutions - either staying together, or separating. It will be interesting what they come up with.
xpeacex

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

You've got to believe this is on the table, right? I think it is.

Not according to what I've heard out of Durham. All discussions have been how to organize rather than any about dropping any school.

[OhioHen]

SPLIT YOURSELVES!!!

And immediately request a second autobid!!! Could the NCAA legitimately deny an autobid to EITHER of the potential conferences?

[Syntax Error]

It's perfectly fine to support the theory of two separate conferences. Acknowledging the reality of why that sort of plan doesn't appear imminently workable for this particularl group of schools requires a deeper level of understanding of the circumstances, IMO.Any deeper level than there is not a second conference? That is the only reality right? If another conference was ready then BINGO there would be a split. It's not a question of IF, it is a question of WHEN.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I am way on the record as saying that some sort of breakup ought to happen - with autobids for both conferences. If that happens, forget about America East sponsorship - it will be a "New Yankee" conference for sure, administered (read: owned part and parcel) by the CAA.

What appeared to happen this year was that the playoff subcommittee seemed to "pretend" that there were two conferences: a CAA North (with two bids: UNH and Maine) and a CAA South (with three bids: Richmond, Villanova, and JMU). For those that are hoping for a 14 team conference, you have to ask yourselves: how long will the playoff subcommittee be willing to put up with that charade? Especially since William & Mary felt "woofed" at the hands of a team from the North that wasn't as good. Clearly you can't count on the fact that the playoff subcommittee will do that every year.

Having said that, there are other considerations here. Start with:
* How important are autobids? Some here think that they don't matter at all, but I disagree. (An autobid might have solved some of these weird issues between taking a balance of CAA North and CAA South teams.)
* How important are conference championships? Some here think they don't matter at all, but I disagree. (I'm willing to bet JMU will be making rings saying "CAA Champion, 2008".)
* Is the fault line "geographical" (draw a line at Newark, DE - all schools south of Philadelphia are the CAA, north are New Yankee), "geographical plus Villanova" (same, but switch Villanova and Towson in the north and south) - or the most intriguing of all, "CAA member versus affiliates" (Hosftra, N'Eastern, and the rest of the CAA full members on one side, non-members in the New Yankee)?

(For clarification, that would mean the following:
New Yankee:
UMass
UNH
Maine
URI
Richmond
Villanova

CAA:
James Madison
William & Mary
Delaware
Towson
Hofstra
Georgia State
ODU
Northeastern)

There are clear disadvantages to both solutions - either staying together, or separating. It will be interesting what they come up with.

Doubt you'd ever see your "for clarification" alignment because it isn't balanced and Richmond and Villanova won't agree, but it helps your dream of someday seeing them in the Patriot League! How are you coming with scholarships? ;)

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Any deeper level than there is not a second conference? That is the only reality right? If another conference was ready then BINGO there would be a split. It's not a question of IF, it is a question of WHEN.

Don't you think if it was that straightforward that it would have happened a long time ago? How can you say it is "WHEN"? I don't think there is any other entity besides the CAA ready to provide a solution. Is there any other conference that is "ready'? You're underestimating all the underlying factors involved.

[henfan]

IHow important are conference championships? Some here think they don't matter at all, but I disagree. (I'm willing to bet JMU will be making rings saying "CAA Champion, 2008".

And Richmond will get rings indicating "NCAA National Champion, 2008". A school can have rings made and distributed to its team for any reason. Hey, we won the Lambert Cup, we're divisional champs, we won an NCAA quarterfinal game, etc.

In more years than not in the Yankee/A-10/CAA, two teams have had records indicative of conference champions. In most cases, rings were probably awarded and I'd bet they didn't say "Yankee/A-10/CAA co-champs".xsmiley_wix

[JMU Newbill]

I have no problem with a 14 team conference, split somewhere along the mason dixon line (give or take a school or two, i.e. Towson).

I know its been said and it would probably never/can't happen.... but how awesome would a CAA Championship at a neutral site be? Automatic bid goes to the winner. Other bids are given out as earned. Not saying it can, should, or will happen.... but you gotta admit that it would be pretty awesome!

[Syntax Error]

Don't you think if it was that straightforward that it would have happened a long time ago? How can you say it is "WHEN"? I don't think there is any other entity besides the CAA ready to provide a solution. Is there any other conference that is "ready'? You're underestimating all the underlying factors involved.That's why I said WHEN. There is too much rabble already from around the nation about conferences that are too big. I heard it from many other commissioners and ADs.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I don't like a 14 team league either, but the autobid is where the idea of splitting comes to a screeching hault.

First, it's already been stated (and is probably true) that the winner of each division will probably make the playoffs - one as an AQ and on as an AL.

Second, and most importantly I think, is that there's no autobids out there to give another conference unless you expand the playoffs...again. Or take one away from another conference, and I don't think the NCAA wants to deal with that headache.

Don't forget that 20 can become 24 without any additional logistical problems. (Going from 16 to 20 already required an additional week.) And the Pioneer League is going to request an AQ, correct? xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

[89Hen]

Not according to what I've heard out of Durham. All discussions have been how to organize rather than any about dropping any school.
Um.... nobody in Durham was involved in those discussions. xwhistlex xsmiley_wix

[89Hen]

And immediately request a second autobid!!! Could the NCAA legitimately deny an autobid to EITHER of the potential conferences?
Why get hung-up on autobids? Take the auto away from the CAA (or SoCon, Gateway, etc...), would it really matter? The only time I can think of it coming into play for one of the bigger conferences is when Montana State got it two years in a row and would not have gotten in without it.

[89Hen]

That's why I said WHEN. There is too much rabble already from around the nation about conferences that are too big. I heard it from many other commissioners and ADs.
Honestly, it's a silly postition IMO. "Hey, the CAA is getting too many bids."... even though the CAA has never had half their conference get one the same year as the Gateway did. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the 12 team conference, but it's not for the same reason as outsiders to the CAA. xpeacex

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Um.... nobody in Durham was involved in those discussions. xwhistlex xsmiley_wix

I see the wink think but sorry to break this news to you, Durham has been involved. They are a member of CAA Football and all members of CAA Football are involved, not just the all sports members.

[UMass922]

Cant happen-- championship games are against the current rules.

I thought that was only if there were fewer than 12 teams in the league--i.e., the reason the SWAC championship game participants are ineligible for the postseason is because that conference has only 10 teams; whereas in FBS, the championship game participants in the SEC, ACC, Big 12, etc. are still eligible to play in the postseason (in their case, bowl games) because those conferences all have at least 12 teams. So the CAA could have a championship game without the participating teams losing postseason eligibility, since the conference meets the 12-team threshold.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding.

[Syntax Error]

Honestly, it's a silly postition IMO. "Hey, the CAA is getting too many bids."... even though the CAA has never had half their conference get one the same year as the Gateway did. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the 12 team conference, but it's not for the same reason as outsiders to the CAA. xpeacexnever mentioned bids, de-emphasizing conference titles is one I heard though, not playing each member is another...

[henfan]

That's why I said WHEN. There is too much rabble already from around the nation about conferences that are too big. I heard it from many other commissioners and ADs.

Such as? Who are these people and what are their specific concerns? How would a smaller CAA impact their conferences in positive ways? I'm interested to hear that rationale.

Many (not all) of the fans who are proponents of a smaller CAA seem not to understand the value of league rivalries, the importance in continuity of league records & stats, the convenience and financial repercussions of having to schedule additional OOC games, the difficulty and expense in beginning a new conference start up, the ramifications with NCAA waiting periods & representation, the breaking and forging of new media contracts, just to name a few. Hey, some of you guys are apparently smarter than the experienced minds who have been pondering these issues for decades.

[Libertine]

Just a thought. Each team schedules 10 games with the final week left open. During the final week, each team plays its opposite in the standings from the other division (CAA North #1 vs. CAA South #1, CAA North #2 vs. CAA South #2, etc.,). This would keep you as one conference but would not be a championship game and would also make things a little more fair about who got playoff bids from which division.

[danefan]

Just a thought. Each team schedules 10 games with the final week left open. During the final week, each team plays its opposite in the standings from the other division (CAA North #1 vs. CAA South #1, CAA North #2 vs. CAA South #2, etc.,). This would keep you as one conference but would not be a championship game and would also make things a little more fair about who got playoff bids from which division.

While in theory its fine, it produces a logistical nightmare. Travel expenses could astronomical having to charter planes and get hotel room with only one weeks notice.

[henfan]

This would keep you as one conference but would not be a championship game and would also make things a little more fair about who got playoff bids from which division.

Again, CAA members appear not to be concerned with which team is awarded the autobid. That's an invention of this message board.

What is important is finding the appropriate balance in terms of schedule and divisional geography to keep all parties happy. That's what the ADs will be discussing, not how the conference determines its autobid. The conference already has a procedure established for doing that.

Regarding a conference championship game, it's something that was discussed and dismissed as out of hand by league when the A-10 was running the show. Asking 5 home teams to sacrifice revenue for what would have been a dropped home game at the expense of 1 team just wasn't feasible, nor was asking teams to potentially give up lucrative games versus I-A schools.

[Libertine]

While in theory its fine, it produces a logistical nightmare. Travel expenses could astronomical having to charter planes and get hotel room with only one weeks notice.

Not necessarily. Home sites could be pre-determined by the conference (North at South one year and vice-versa the next) and, as such, the conference could assist in making some of those arrangements ahead of time.

[Syntax Error]

Many (not all) of the fans who are proponents of a smaller CAA seem not to understand the value of league rivalries, the importance in continuity of league records & stats, the convenience and financial repercussions of having to schedule additional OOC games, the difficulty and expense in beginning a new conference start up, the ramifications with NCAA waiting periods & representation, the breaking and forging of new media contracts, just to name a few.Explain why teams are added year after year and how that maintains what you stated... rivalries/continuity/convenience/OOC? The Yankee/A-10/CAA was not always 12 teams soon to be 14. Seems to some the CAA is gluttonous and might be seen as monopolizing in a way. WHEN means when, no explanation needed, same as AQ. Media contracts are made and broken all the time. Hey, some of you guys are apparently smarter than the experienced minds who have been pondering these issues for decades.

[Syntax Error]

Such as? Who are these people and what are their specific concerns? How would a smaller CAA impact their conferences in positive ways? I'm interested to hear that rationale...Their contact info is publicly available and you can go to their functions any time and ask them face to face as I have done. Just asking Yeager will not give you a full picture.

[89Hen]

I see the wink think but sorry to break this news to you, Durham has been involved. They are a member of CAA Football and all members of CAA Football are involved, not just the all sports members.
It was a joke, but how would Durham know if they missed backroom discussions by all-sports members? xeyebrowx

[89Hen]

never mentioned bids, de-emphasizing conference titles is one I heard though, not playing each member is another...
Nobody in the CAA (save UMass) cares about CAA titles... why would anyone outside of the CAA care about CAA titles? xcoffeex

[89Hen]

Just a thought. Each team schedules 10 games with the final week left open. During the final week, each team plays its opposite in the standings from the other division (CAA North #1 vs. CAA South #1, CAA North #2 vs. CAA South #2, etc.,). This would keep you as one conference but would not be a championship game and would also make things a little more fair about who got playoff bids from which division.
Interesting, but doesn't work. Why should #1 and #1 have to possibly face each other twice in one year while #3 from the stronger division gets an easier game vs weaker #3... when the real goal is playoffs? This isn't fair to the #1 teams. xpeacex

[henfan]

Their contact info is publicly available and you can go to their functions any time and ask them face to face as I have done. Just asking Yeager will not give you a full picture.

I wasn't asking for contact detail. If you're unable to reveal sources in a public forum, that's cool. That shouldn't preclude you from relaying the specific concerns you heard and the rationale that was shared.

So far you've listed concerns about de-emphasizing conference titles and not playing each member once. Fine. Any explanation provided by these alleged sources as to how the CAA's SOP in those matters impact other conferences? That's the meat of the discussion.

[Syntax Error]

Nobody in the CAA (save UMass) cares about CAA titles... why would anyone outside of the CAA care about CAA titles? Are you serious? Conferences are the core of NCAA postseason selections. Besides, I don't think you are correct in speaking for every school in the CAA.

[mcveyrl]

Are you serious? Conferences are the core of NCAA postseason selections. Besides, I don't think you are correct in speaking for every school in the CAA.

I can't speak for my entire school. But I would've rather won Richmond's championship than our championship...

[bostonspider]

I think it would be pretty difficult to kick out "affiliates" if there are not set standards in their agreements with each other for the provision of expulsion from the league. The Big East had a hard enough time dropping Temple and they had these standards that Temple was not meeting. But I think it would be hard to hold say UR or UNH to higher standards than Northeastern. The CAA invited these teams to be in the football league, and now in general I think they are stuck with them.

[Syntax Error]

Any explanation provided by these alleged sources as to how the CAA's SOP in those matters impact other conferences?Knowing who is reading this thread, I've said about all I can in dancing around what is generally thought by more than a few. Mr. Yeager knows all this too and we will all watch what is decided. I fully expect the CAA to short-term expand their divisions but it is MY hope that another conference will emerge soon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Yankee/A-10/CAA was not always 12 teams soon to be 14. Seems to some the CAA is gluttonous and might be seen as monopolizing in a way...


Honestly, it's a silly postition IMO. "Hey, the CAA is getting too many bids."... even though the CAA has never had half their conference get one the same year as the Gateway did. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the 12 team conference, but it's not for the same reason as outsiders to the CAA. xpeacex

It's not that the CAA is getting too many bids. It's that you could make the case that the playoff subcommittee is de facto treating the CAA North and CAA South as different conferences when it comes to selecting at-large bids. Ask Elon fans how they feel about their third-placed team losing out on the playoffs to the fifth (arguably sixth) placed team in the fourteen team CAA.

Of the problems with a 14-team conference, the biggest unofficial problem, IMO, is treating the CAA as two conferences in terms of at-large bids. Not autobids. At-large bids within the same conference "balanced" between north and south, with unbalanced schedules since every team can't play every other team.

[89Hen]

Are you serious? Conferences are the core of NCAA postseason selections. Besides, I don't think you are correct in speaking for every school in the CAA.
Take a poll if you like. Conference championships are nice, but they are more like the Lambert. There is only one championship that is noteworthy in I-AA.

[Syntax Error]

Take a poll if you like. Conference championships are nice, but they are more like the Lambert. There is only one championship that is noteworthy in I-AA.Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Back Machine to the times of I-AA! xlolx :p As we know, a poll of fans is not a trifle that the NCAAers recognize.

[89Hen]

Ask Elon fans how they feel about their third-placed team losing out on the playoffs to the fifth (arguably sixth) placed team in the fourteen team CAA.
Well, the tied for third place CAA team handily beat Elon in North Carolina so I'm not sure how much ground they have to stand on. xpeacex

[henfan]

Knowing who is reading this thread, I've said about all I can in dancing around what is generally thought by more than a few. Mr. Yeager knows all this too and we will all watch what is decided. I fully expect the CAA to short-term expand their divisions but it is MY hope that another conference will emerge soon.

I'll have to take that comment for what's is worth then.

IMO, change is indeed inevitable in the CAA and elsewhere. No conference stays the same forever, as the many changes in the YankCon/A-10/CAA have proven.

It's my opinion that the type of change you hope for is not going to happen as soon as you'd like it because, outside of what other conference commissioners & admin people might wisper, the CAA lacks the evident motivation, desire, drive and need for that type of massive sea change.

Who knows? We might all be surprised tomorrow.

[89Hen]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay Back Machine to the times of I-AA! xlolx :p As we know, a poll of fans is not a trifle that the NCAAers recognize.
I meant take a poll of coaches, players and AD's. Unfortunately, they aren't really free to speak their mind (well, except Mickey) so they can't tell you that they don't give a rats arse about the CAA title.

[Syntax Error]

I meant take a poll of coaches, players and AD's. Unfortunately, they aren't really free to speak their mind (well, except Mickey) so they can't tell you that they don't give a rats arse about the CAA title.
I would wager that any coach and player would LOVE to win their conference title. At any level. xthumbsupx

[89Hen]

I would wager that any coach and player would LOVE to win their conference title. At any level. xthumbsupx
xnonox You aren't staying in the spirit of what we are talking about. If I asked any coach, "Would you love to win your conference title?" of course they are going to say yes. However ask them if they'd rather win their conference, or go to Chatty and see what they say.

[Syntax Error]

xnonox You aren't staying in the spirit of what we are talking about. If I asked any coach, "Would you love to win your conference title?" of course they are going to say yes. However ask them if they'd rather win their conference, or go to Chatty and see what they say.I didn't understand your "spirit" but every coach and player wants to win the title in front of them, first conference then national. That's a given. xnodx

[henfan]

Ask Elon fans how they feel about their third-placed team losing out on the playoffs to the fifth (arguably sixth) placed team in the fourteen team CAA.

Correction: the CAA consisted of 12 teams in 2008, not 14.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

It was a joke, but how would Durham know if they missed backroom discussions by all-sports members? xeyebrowx

Because Mickey would have been quoted on it! ;) xnodx xlolx xlolx

I figured it was a joke, but sorry I don't have much of a sense of humor when my alma mater is the brunt of the joke. Unless it's in the smack forum of course.

Seriously, just because the CAA administers the league today doesn't give them the right to overlook the league's roots. It's evolved from the Yankee Conference and Maine, UNH, UMass and URI were charter members. A conference that gave your alma mater an opportunity back in 1986. Yeah, I'm old school, those ties mean something substantial and shouldn't be forgotten.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, the tied for third place CAA team (Richmond) handily beat Elon in North Carolina so I'm not sure how much ground they have to stand on. xpeacex

Yes, the eventual national champion beat Elon... which has nothing to do with the second-placed team in CAA North (or sixth-placed team in the CAA, whatever you prefer) making the playoffs as an at-large team. Last I checked, Maine didn't play Elon, and Elon had better wins than Maine had.

There are fundamental questions that a 14 team conference face that don't lend themselves to easy answers. How to judge strength of schedule, or conference championships, or autobids when one team in a subdivision plays almost all ranked teams and the other faces the dregs of the other division? (Since the CAA is in FCS, a conference championship is not feasible - which is the solution that nearly all FBS conferences have chosen.) How to treat the situation where one division has a "subdivision champion" that is 7-4 but the other has five playoff-eligible teams? How about seeding - does the fact that one conference have a subdivisional champion, but an at-large bid to the playoffs, affect their chance to have a seed? What happens to attendance when UD only travels to the CAA North schools once every six years?

henfan seems to think that "the CAA lacks the evident motivation, desire, drive and need for that type of massive sea change." Brother, if that's true, then exactly what is this meeting they're planning for tomorrow? The league leadership is clearly concerned, which is why they're discussing it.

[89Hen]

Seriously, just because the CAA administers the league today doesn't give them the right to overlook the league's roots.
It depends on how you want to use the word "right". It may be their "right" but it may not be "right". Right? xsmiley_wix

[89Hen]

I didn't understand your "spirit" but every coach and player wants to win the title in front of them, first conference then national. That's a given. xnodx
They are independant of each other for the CAA teams. PL, OVC, MEAC.... MUCH more important to win your conference. UMass 1998, JMU 2004, UR 2008.... did not receive the CAA auto (did JMU?).

[mcveyrl]

They are independant of each other for the CAA teams. PL, OVC, MEAC.... MUCH more important to win your conference. UMass 1998, JMU 2004, UR 2008.... did not receive the CAA auto (did JMU?).

IIRC, W&M got the auto via their win over us or some such thing.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

It's not that the CAA is getting too many bids. It's that you could make the case that the playoff subcommittee is de facto treating the CAA North and CAA South as different conferences when it comes to selecting at-large bids. Ask Elon fans how they feel about their third-placed team losing out on the playoffs to the fifth (arguably sixth) placed team in the fourteen team CAA.

Of the problems with a 14-team conference, the biggest unofficial problem, IMO, is treating the CAA as two conferences in terms of at-large bids. Not autobids. At-large bids within the same conference "balanced" between north and south, with unbalanced schedules since every team can't play every other team.

I don't know yet if the committee is doing that. I think I've previously presented objective head-to-head match-up data between Villanova and UNH that demonstrated that UNH was more deserving in 2007. And as much I read about the choice of Maine, it seemed to come down to their eighth D-I win while W&M had only seven. Now, I have a real problem with that one because it was a 12 game season when W&M opted to only play 11. But that's a discussion for another thread. Right now, I just don't see the de facto treatment you're alluding to in terms of selecting a second team from the North. FWIW, 2004 was three from the South and one from the north, 2005 was one from each, 2006 was two and two IIRC.

As for Elon, their objective and rational fans know they lost all argument for a playoff bid with the loss to Richmond at home as well as their loss to Liberty. You seem to imply that Richmond wasn't as worthy a team because they were in 3rd place in the CAA South. You fail to acknowledge how close their losses were to Nova and JMU. There just wasn't much difference between one through three in the South. I mean JMU was a hail mary and a punt return away from being in that same slot.

[whitey]

Last I checked, Maine didn't play Elon, and Elon had better wins than Maine had.


Not this argument again. Elon did not have better wins than Maine.

[GannonFan]

Seems to some the CAA is gluttonous and might be seen as monopolizing in a way.

Gluttonous and monopolizing??? In what way? Even if the conference was split tomorrow, you'd still see 4 teams from last year absolutely make the playoffs from the two resulting conferences and the 5th team could still have very well been picked from those two as well. The CAA isn't getting any more teams in as one conference than they would as two conferences, and if a second auto-bid is given for the new conference you could make a good argument that they could get more teams in than if they had stayed together. The CAA isn't getting more than their share of teams in simply because of their largesse.

[Syntax Error]

The CAA isn't getting more than their share of teams in simply because of their largesse.Again, bids are not the question.

[GannonFan]

Again, bids are not the question.

Then maybe I missed it in this ever-growing thread, what is gluttonous about the CAA if it's not the bids it gets to the playoffs? xconfusedx

[Syntax Error]

Then maybe I missed it in this ever-growing thread, what is gluttonous about the CAA if it's not the bids it gets to the playoffs? xconfusedxxlolx Yes, and thanks for joining in. Read up, I think that was about the number of teams.

[89Hen]

Again, bids are not the question.
And again... baloney.

[Syntax Error]

And again... baloney.
Take it up with them. There is more to a conference coffer than NCAA playoff bids.

[89Hen]

Take it up with them.
Them who?

[GannonFan]

xlolx Yes, and thanks for joining in. Read up, I think that was about the number of teams.

Well, I did read up and if this isn't about the number of bids to the playoffs I echo 89's contention - that's baloney. Why would anyone outside the conference care about the number of teams in the conference per se? No one really complains about it until playoff time when the bids come out.

[Syntax Error]

How about media contracts? How about market share? How about recruiting territory, etc. etc. etc.

[bostonspider]

How about media contracts? How about market share? How about recruiting territory, etc. etc. etc.

So you are saying that ADs of leagues outside of the CAA are getting too jealous, so the CAA should be split up? The CAA is too good?

[Big Al]

Second, and most importantly I think, is that there's no autobids out there to give another conference unless you expand the playoffs...again. Or take one away from another conference, and I don't think the NCAA wants to deal with that headache.

Not true.

[89Hen]

How about media contracts? How about market share? How about recruiting territory, etc. etc. etc.
I'm not sure how them being one CAA or 1/2 CAA, 1/2 Yankee would change any of that. Delaware is still going to recruit where they do now (in I-A locker rooms xsmiley_wix ), Boston, Philly, Baltimore... would still be within the CAA and Yankee footprint, what changes by splitting them??

[GannonFan]

How about media contracts? How about market share? How about recruiting territory, etc. etc. etc.

Huh? Recruiting? Who does the CAA really overlap with anyway? The Patriot League? Just about every Patriot League poster on the boards here keeps telling us how the Patriot League recruits a different kind of player than who would go to a CAA school. Same with the Ivy League. The NEC isn't offering schollies, or not enough, so that's not an issue either.

As for media contracts and market share, same thing applies. It's not like the CAA is making a fortune off of its relatively minor media contract (minor compared to the FBS schools of the world). And market share? Have you seen the attendance numbers for much of the CAA? Outside of 3-4 teams, attendance is pretty minimal.

[Syntax Error]

So you are saying that ADs of leagues outside of the CAA are getting too jealous, so the CAA should be split up? The CAA is too good?I don't think any commish or AD would say too good, too big maybe compared to other conferences. It is a concern which is why the CAA is meeting over it too.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How about OOC games? If there is indeed a "New Yankee" conference, I bet Holy Cross' AD would be interested in some home-and-home's with a "New Yankee" school that might now have 2 OOC slots opened up that used to be wasted on two Dixie schools...

[Syntax Error]

Huh? Recruiting? Who does the CAA really overlap with anyway? The Patriot League? Just about every Patriot League poster on the boards here keeps telling us how the Patriot League recruits a different kind of player than who would go to a CAA school. Same with the Ivy League. The NEC isn't offering schollies, or not enough, so that's not an issue either.

As for media contracts and market share, same thing applies. It's not like the CAA is making a fortune off of its relatively minor media contract (minor compared to the FBS schools of the world). And market share? Have you seen the attendance numbers for much of the CAA? Outside of 3-4 teams, attendance is pretty minimal.I hear others that do not share your view. Everyone knows how a giant can get things done easier than a smaller foe.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Huh? Recruiting? Who does the CAA really overlap with anyway? The Patriot League? Just about every Patriot League poster on the boards here keeps telling us how the Patriot League recruits a different kind of player than who would go to a CAA school.

Come on, that's baloney and you know it.

[Syntax Error]

... what changes by splitting them??You know, nothing if the leadership is the same. But if it is different then a whole lot can change.

Hey, I have to go grocery shopping but thanks to everyone who has spit their wise remarks here. Keep it up! xthumbsupx

[GannonFan]

Come on, that's baloney and you know it.

Then why do you guys talk about it all the time? Heck, there's a thread that rivals this in size right now that talks about how you guys are limited by collective SAT scores and I know the issue of grants-in-aid has been talked about ad naseum. Can't have it both ways.

[GannonFan]

I hear others that do not share your view. Everyone knows how a giant can get things done easier than a smaller foe.

And what does the "giant" get done? Again, at this level, media contracts are pretty minimal, no one's making gobs of money off of CAA games on CN8 (heck, CN8 just folded so that speaks volumes about the market reach right there). I'd grant you that the CAA could have an upper hand in recruiting, however, there's no other league to really recruit against that isn't already different in terms of admission criteria, financial aid, etc. Seems to be worrying over what the CAA could be eventually having an advantage rather than something they currently have, that is, unless we really are talking about bids (which it's hard to believe we're not).

[henfan]

I don't think any commish or AD would say too good, too big maybe compared to other conferences. It is a concern which is why the CAA is meeting over it too.

And of course there's remains no substanative explanation offered as to why it would matter to anyone other than Tom Yeager and the CAA ADs. xrotatehx

To clarify, the CAA ADs will not be meeting to discuss reducing the size of their FB league. They will be talking about divisional splits and scheduling.

[jstclmet]

You're all looking at this the wrong way. The cup is not half full, it's half empty.

Why stop at 14??? The playoffs are expanding to 20. So, why not add two more and make it a 16 team league with two divisions of 8????

GSU is setting the precedence of a school having to fly everywhere anyway. We can add App St to the south and Montana to the North.

New Division:

North
Hofstra
Maine
Massachusetts
Montana
New Hamsphire
Northeastern
Rhode Island
Villanova

South
ASU
Delaware
GSU
JMU
ODU
Richmond
Towson
W&M

Nova & UD can continue to play in the crossover game every year. Adding Nova to the North gives the North more balance than TU. Now you have two very strong divisions, and the top 4 in each make the playoffs xnodx

[Umass74]

I think there are very good reasons for the CAA to continue.

First, CAA teams have been very successful in the playoffs and seem to be getting even better as the years go by. Tough league competition may be the reason. Why mess with a winning formula?

Second, why duplicate league administration costs? The CAA seems to do an excellent job of promoting all the football teams in the league. Dividing the league would also divide the media attention.

Third, having a association with the other teams helps with scheduling. Some CAA teams have played other league teams as a "non league game" when they got stuck on scheduling.

Fourth, North and South teams can have rivalry and cut travel costs in half by scheduling two years on and two years off.

Nobody is excited about an all-sports league. Villanova is not leaving the Big East in basketball. UMass, URI and Richmond are not leaving the A10. UMass is not leaving Big East hockey. And who cares what league the men's cross country or girl's soccer teams play in?

[ur2k]

I don't think any commish or AD would say too good, too big maybe compared to other conferences. It is a concern which is why the CAA is meeting over it too.

I would think that this is probably an annual meeting to debrief on the season and get their ducks in a row going forward. I wouldn't look into it much more than that.

Oh and there will be a secret ceremony hosted by JMU, Delaware and UMASS to welcome UR to the Champions' Society. xbeerchugx

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Henfan's absolutely correct. The size of the conference matters nothing to the NCAA. And as for the champion, again, with a playoff system, who really cares who the conference champion is? The conference is obviously going to get 2 or more teams in the playoff every year, like they have for about 2 decades anyway, so why does it matter? The only people who moan about the CAA not necessarily having a definitive champion are non-CAA people, and tough luck.

I don't see the CAA breaking up anytime soon. I think there may be a push eventually to have the schools that can move up en masse to FBS, but that's a decade out in the future at least, maybe even more if this economic malaise continues. And there's no way they play more than 8 conference games - there won't be a 9 game mandate here.

Why the size of the CAA matters so much to non-CAA people always amazes me. xlolx

If the CAA teams only have to play 8 conference games every year, then every CAA team will only be playing 2 of the 7 teams from the other division. With this setup, I could see the CAA teams getting 3 or even 4 of the top 4 seeds in the playoffs. That gives them an unfair advantage over the other autobid conferences. There's no way that any of the non-split conferences could do that even if they had 3 legitimate top 5 teams.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And of course there's remains no substantive explanation offered as to why it would matter to anyone other than Tom Yeager and the CAA ADs.

Shall I list them?
* More OOC games for regional opponents
* Another potential autobid, which affects the playoff structure and could open up more at-large bids for other schools
* If league stays at 14 teams, perhaps other leagues could pick off interested affiliates

Three pretty damned substantive explanations as to why it would matter right there.


To clarify, the CAA ADs will not be meeting to discuss reducing the size of their FB league. They will be talking about divisional splits and scheduling.

Oh really?


Yeager yesterday said among those options are 1) one league with a pair of seven-team divisions, and 2) a split into two leagues, based on geography. The CAA also includes Delaware, Villanova, Towson, Hofstra, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Northeastern and Rhode Island.

If the choice is a 14-team league with a pair of seven-team divisions, Yeager believes an eight-game CAA obligation would continue. Yeager hopes a consensus is reached next week, allowing the league to go forward with scheduling for 2011 and beyond. The CAA has a strong interest in reducing travel costs, if possible, while maintaining traditional conference rivalries.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

How about OOC games? If there is indeed a "New Yankee" conference, I bet Holy Cross' AD would be interested in some home-and-home's with a "New Yankee" school that might now have 2 OOC slots opened up that used to be wasted on two Dixie schools...

Please, Holy Cross could get those games today if they really wanted them. For example, UNH has an opening for 2009 and AFAIK only has the Dartmouth and Pitt games nailed down for 2010, and only Dartmouth for 2011, but I bet Holy Cross will play Northeastern and Harvard, Yale, Brown and Dartmouth for their OOC. Or some other combo of Ivy League schools or with a Pioneer team thrown in instead. They can get a second game with a CAA school the day they're willing to give up an Ivy League game.

Sorry you think games were "wasted on Dixie schools" because nothing could be farther from the truth.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

When you look at the quality of the league, or specifically if there were (2) 7 team leagues, the NCAA should realize that it's in the best interest of all members that the league split. The only drawback would be for the teams not wishing for an at-large to go to an new autobid. But the members of the 7/7 Split would be able to give the correct facts to support a decision: that the CAA/A10 has been sending multiple teams EVERY year. A split would give them 2 autobids in theory, but the league has been taking more than 1 bid anyways.

What I'd rather see would be a stronger geographic split, but in doing so I will side with the branding people in thinking that the conference loyalties do matter.

So as much as it geographically it is odd for Northeastern to be in a conference without the New England schools, if a split does happen, it should include all the reasons.

With the additions of Albany and Stonybrook, a new lineup could be:

AMERICA EAST:
UMaine
UNH
Stonybrook
Albany
*UMass
* URI
* Richmond
* Villanova

CAA:
Northeastern
Hofstra
Towson
Delaware
JMU
W&M
ODU
Georgia State



So you've got 7 conference games instead of 8, but each member would likely schedule it's 4 non-conference games with schools from the other conference.

So Northeastern would still likely be able to play Maine, Umass and UNH each year with a 4th game for another potential school.


Sum it up...14 is just too many.

[GannonFan]

If the CAA teams only have to play 8 conference games every year, then every CAA team will only be playing 2 of the 7 teams from the other division. With this setup, I could see the CAA teams getting 3 or even 4 of the top 4 seeds in the playoffs. That gives them an unfair advantage over the other autobid conferences. There's no way that any of the non-split conferences could do that even if they had 3 legitimate top 5 teams.

Ok, time to back away from the keyboard - did you seriously mean to say that the CAA could get all 4 of the top 4 seeds (let alone 3)??? That will never, ever, ever happen. Ever. You do realize most if not all CAA schools play at least one FBS team each year and most play at least one good OOC FCS team? It's not like the CAA is ducking people by hiding in the conference. And historically, the conference has only gotten 2 of the top 4 seeds, I think, only once (1997 when nova and UD got seeds - could be wrong there but it can't be much more than 2 years where it's happened). Heck, the SoCon more routinely gets more than one of the top 4 seeds compared with the CAA, even the MVC might have had more seeds in a given year. But to get back to the point, the CAA will never, ever, ever get more than 2 of the top 4 seeds.

[danefan]

When you look at the quality of the league, or specifically if there were (2) 7 team leagues, the NCAA should realize that it's in the best interest of all members that the league split. The only drawback would be for the teams not wishing for an at-large to go to an new autobid. But the members of the 7/7 Split would be able to give the correct facts to support a decision: that the CAA/A10 has been sending multiple teams EVERY year. A split would give them 2 autobids in theory, but the league has been taking more than 1 bid anyways.

What I'd rather see would be a stronger geographic split, but in doing so I will side with the branding people in thinking that the conference loyalties do matter.

So as much as it geographically it is odd for Northeastern to be in a conference without the New England schools, if a split does happen, it should include all the reasons.

With the additions of Albany and Stonybrook, a new lineup could be:

AMERICA EAST:
UMaine
UNH
Stonybrook
Albany
*UMass
* URI
* Richmond
* Villanova

CAA:
Northeastern
Hofstra
Towson
Delaware
JMU
W&M
ODU
Georgia State



So you've got 7 conference games instead of 8, but each member would likely schedule it's 4 non-conference games with schools from the other conference.

So Northeastern would still likely be able to play Maine, Umass and UNH each year with a 4th game for another potential school.


Sum it up...14 is just too many.

And some food for thought:

If that were to happen before Presby becomes eligible - Stony Brook would leave the Big South (which they would do in a heartbeat) and the Big South would no longer have the schools necessary for their AQ. The new AEast conference would qualify for an AQ with Maine, UNH, UMass, URI, Richmond, and Villanova having played together for two consecutive seasons immediately preceding the request for an AQ.

And hence, you get rid of the AQ problem. (except the Big South get screwed).

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

If the CAA teams only have to play 8 conference games every year, then every CAA team will only be playing 2 of the 7 teams from the other division. With this setup, I could see the CAA teams getting 3 or even 4 of the top 4 seeds in the playoffs. That gives them an unfair advantage over the other autobid conferences. There's no way that any of the non-split conferences could do that even if they had 3 legitimate top 5 teams.

Stop with the paranoia already. xrolleyesx If the team's record and SOS dictate, they will get a seed. You people all say that the MEAC, OVC and the Patriot are "weaker" leagues. How often do they get multiple seeds with gaudy records?

If a team in the North Division (admit it, that's what you're implying) has a 10-1 record, but hasn't played any of the stronger teams in the South there is no guarantee they'd be a seed. They'd have to have a great set of OOC games to offset that. Frankly, the North schools lose a significant SOS component by not playing three of the current six South schools.

[GannonFan]

When you look at the quality of the league, or specifically if there were (2) 7 team leagues, the NCAA should realize that it's in the best interest of all members that the league split.

Why? What best interest is being served? You're suggesting that the members of the CAA are hurting themselves by being in a larger conference and yet choose to remain. xconfusedx





Sum it up...14 is just too many.

Why? xconfusedx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

And some food for thought:

If that were to happen before Presby becomes eligible - Stony Brook would leave the Big South (which they would do in a heartbeat) and the Big South would no longer have the schools necessary for their AQ. The new AEast conference would qualify for an AQ with Maine, UNH, UMass, URI, Richmond, and Villanova having played together for two consecutive seasons immediately preceding the request for an AQ.

And hence, you get rid of the AQ problem. (except the Big South get screwed).

Sorry Dane, but it will never happen. IIRC, CSI's affiliation is with UMass. They've never shown any inclination to go along with that AE scenario. Villanova and Richmond wouldn't have any interest either. And all of that is after the assumption that AE is capable of getting a football conference off the ground. They've never shown the aptitude for that. And why would anybody want a conference with only four all sports members?

[henfan]

Shall I list them?
* More OOC games for regional opponents
* Another potential autobid, which affects the playoff structure and could open up more at-large bids for other schools
* If league stays at 14 teams, perhaps other leagues could pick off interested affiliates

I completely understand the motivations of other leagues & fans of other leagues and why they might want to see the strong, large league like the CAA weakened to their own advantage.

There's no guarantee that a split league would result in more OOC games for regional opponents. Ironic comment coming from a PL fan. Even with the size of our league, some of our members have trouble landing OOC games against the likes of the PL & IL. Sweet little deal you guys have going. UNH has an open date next year. Do you know of any PL schools that will play them? ;)

There is no "potential autobid", so that's a nonissue. Future FCS playoff expansion has already been determined.

Whether the league stays at 14 or goes to 7, other leagues have the option to court CAA members. Remind me how that went with the PL & UR again?xeekx

These are all bogus excuses rather than explanations of how the CAA's size impacts other conferences. Sorry.

[danefan]

Sorry Dane, but it will never happen. IIRC, CSI's affiliation is with UMass. They've never shown any inclination to go along with that AE scenario. Villanova and Richmond wouldn't have any interest either. And all of that is after the assumption that AE is capable of getting a football conference off the ground. They've never shown the aptitude for that. And why would anybody want a conference with only four all sports members?

I know I know.

I've come to the conlcusion the only way the CAA splits up into two conferences is if the NCAA somehow forces them (formally or informally) to do so.

Short of that, what is the internal motivation for CAA members to leave? Like I wrote on the Albany board: would Florida fans and alumni want Florida to go to the ACC? I don't think so.

[bostonspider]

I am pretty sure that UR will not be leaving the CAA Football Conference with UD, JMU and W&M anytime soon. Certainly not for the AE Conference that has been proposed. As I stated before, it is not going to be easy to try and force a team out of a conference, and why would JMU and W&M want to kick out one of their most heated football rivals?

[henfan]

I am pretty sure that UR will not be leaving the CAA Football Conference with UD, JMU and W&M anytime soon. Certainly not for the AE Conference that has been proposed.

Another reason UR's not going anywhere. Chuck Boone.xbowx

[BDKJMU]

I think it would be pretty difficult to kick out "affiliates" if there are not set standards in their agreements with each other for the provision of expulsion from the league. The Big East had a hard enough time dropping Temple and they had these standards that Temple was not meeting. But I think it would be hard to hold say UR or UNH to higher standards than Northeastern. The CAA invited these teams to be in the football league, and now in general I think they are stuck with them.

Why not? UR basically gave the finger to the CAA in 2001 when out of the blue they bolted for the A-10, leaving the CAA in a precarious position at the time. That left a lot of bad feelings toward UR.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There's no guarantee that a split league would result in more OOC games for regional opponents.

Yes, there is, just by math alone. Unless you're convinced all those Hofstra games against Towson would still be played after a split. And, as mentioned in the Richmond Times-Dispatch report, "regional scheduling" is a consideration.


There is no "potential autobid", so that's a nonissue. Future FCS playoff expansion has already been determined.

Unless there is a conference split, which is openly being discussed this weekend.


Whether the league stays at 14 or goes to 7, other leagues have the option to court CAA members. Remind me how that went with the PL & UR again?xeekx

True. But I think the chances of a team actually getting pried loose is a lot better in a 14 team megaleague than two seven team leagues.


These are all bogus excuses rather than explanations of how the CAA's size impacts other conferences. Sorry.

You seem to forget that the possibility of a conference split, which is openly being discussed this weekend as reported by the Richmond Times-Dispatch, would very much affect the landscape under which every other conference exists and competes in what is the FCS. I also fail to see how reasons why non-CAA folks might be interested in this development are brushed aside as "excuses" - excuses for what?

[BearsCountry]

What is the over/under that Albany & Stony Brook will be next to join the CAA.
:D

[BDKJMU]

Brain-fart

[Syntax Error]

I completely understand the motivations of other leagues & fans of other leagues... These are all bogus excuses rather than explanations of how the CAA's size impacts other conferences. Sorry.Sir, I know you can put down the CAA goblet and see the issue from a global perspective. You know everything in this discussion are not merely "bogus excuses" at all. A behemoth conference is not something mostly anyone but the CAA wants for the many reasons given in this thread. A parallel can be made to the business world.

[danefan]

What is the over/under that Albany & Stony Brook will be next to join the CAA.

:D

If there is expansion outside of all-sport CAA members, you can bet Albany and SBU would be on the top of the list. There was some word that Albany was at one point a candidate for an all-sports membership in the CAA. That would actually be more attractive for the CAA than a football affiliate. To get an up-and-coming bball team and one of the top lacrosse programs in the nation would be great for the CAA. Not to mention great, volleyball, softball, field hockey (nationally ranked) and track and field squads.

[GannonFan]

Sir, I know you can put down the CAA goblet and see the issue from a global perspective. You know everything in this discussion are not merely "bogus excuses" at all. A behemoth conference is not something mostly anyone but the CAA wants for the many reasons given in this thread. A parallel can be made to the business world.

And again, the question is, what reasons, especially if we aren't talking about playoff bids? Recruiting, market share, and media contracts were discussed before and they all seem to be non-issues (it's not like the CAA is recruiting head to head with any conferences outside of the Northeast, generally, and the differences between all of those conferences (CAA, Patriot, Ivy, NEC) all go much beyond conference size). How is the SoCon, Big Sky, MVC, Southland, et al negatively impacted by a large CAA?

[GannonFan]

If there is expansion outside of all-sport CAA members, you can bet Albany and SBU would be on the top of the list. There was some word that Albany was at one point a candidate for an all-sports membership in the CAA. That would actually be more attractive for the CAA than a football affiliate. To get an up-and-coming bball team and one of the top lacrosse programs in the nation would be great for the CAA. Not to mention great, volleyball, softball, field hockey (nationally ranked) and track and field squads.

If anyone, for any reason, left the CAA, I wouldn't doubt that Albany would be near the top of the list for a replacement.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Ok, time to back away from the keyboard - did you seriously mean to say that the CAA could get all 4 of the top 4 seeds (let alone 3)??? That will never, ever, ever happen. Ever. You do realize most if not all CAA schools play at least one FBS team each year and most play at least one good OOC FCS team? It's not like the CAA is ducking people by hiding in the conference. And historically, the conference has only gotten 2 of the top 4 seeds, I think, only once (1997 when nova and UD got seeds - could be wrong there but it can't be much more than 2 years where it's happened). Heck, the SoCon more routinely gets more than one of the top 4 seeds compared with the CAA, even the MVC might have had more seeds in a given year. But to get back to the point, the CAA will never, ever, ever get more than 2 of the top 4 seeds.

With the CAA set up like this, the CAA could conceivably have 6 teams with only 1 FCS loss. I realize that could happen with the current 12-team setup, but the chances are very small as there are 3 cross-division games. With 2 cross-division games and 7 teams in each division, that scenario is still not very likely but is still more likely than it is now.

In general, with 14 teams the CAA can have more teams with FCS game records even witht he best of the teams in the other major conferences. Consider this: say you have two CAA teams undefeated in FCS games and two more with one loss. Then betwen the top teams in the SoCon, MVC, and Big Sky you have one undefeated in the FCS and two with one FCS loss. Don't you think the CAA would get three of the top four seeds in that case? It doesn't have to happen exactly like that, but the point is that with 14 teams in the CAA you are more likely to see more CAA teams with top records.

[Syntax Error]

... Recruiting, market share, and media contracts were discussed before and they all seem to be non-issues...seems to you they are non-issues, others are not impervious to one league having over 10% of the division teams in it... with other leagues around it and nationally trying to survive in the midst...

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

How did Maine have 8 Div I wins when they won only 7 games xconfusedx xconfusedx :p

When I look at their results, I see eight wins, all D-I. xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

Monmouth, Stony Brook, Delaware, Hofstra, Northeastern, Iona, UMass and URI.

[BDKJMU]

If the CAA teams only have to play 8 conference games every year, then every CAA team will only be playing 2 of the 7 teams from the other division. With this setup, I could see the CAA teams getting 3 or even 4 of the top 4 seeds in the playoffs. That gives them an unfair advantage over the other autobid conferences. There's no way that any of the non-split conferences could do that even if they had 3 legitimate top 5 teams.

Not a snowballs chance in hell. Most years the CAA would still only get one of the 4 seeds. Some years 2. And the So-Con has had 2 teams seeded on a couple of occasions. 04' (Furman and GSU) and I remember at least once in the 90s. MVFC in 07' with UNI & SIU. So 2 seeds could come out of a 14 team CAA. It will never be more than that.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Why? What best interest is being served? You're suggesting that the members of the CAA are hurting themselves by being in a larger conference and yet choose to remain. xconfusedx




Why? xconfusedx

I'll gladly defer that answer to ANY of the posts that have been made here, CAAzone, by countless numbers of people who favor a split. But if you need that breakdown, here it is: 14 is too many. there you go. Why be in a 14 team league when there are no benefits when you look at the proposed breakdown of potential new leagues. Why should Maine lock themselves into a situation where they need to travel to Atlanta, W&M, ODU (insert any far reaching school here) when they could be in a league in which they have 5 regional CONFERENCE games, 2 conference games that require further travel (Villanova, Richmond). A school like Maine would then have 4 slots to fill with REGIONAL school like Bryant, Holy Cross, Northeastern, Hofstra, etc available.

There is NO REASON at the FBS level for the New england schools to be forced to travel at any time to schools so far away by being a conference member when they could protect their budgets and choose which distant opponents to play.

[BDKJMU]

With the CAA set up like this, the CAA could conceivably have 6 teams with only 1 FCS loss. I realize that could happen with the current 12-team setup, but the chances are very small as there are 3 cross-division games. With 2 cross-division games and 7 teams in each division, that scenario is still not very likely but is still more likely than it is now.

In general, with 14 teams the CAA can have more teams with FCS game records even witht he best of the teams in the other major conferences. Consider this: say you have two CAA teams undefeated in FCS games and two more with one loss. Then betwen the top teams in the SoCon, MVC, and Big Sky you have one undefeated in the FCS and two with one FCS loss. Don't you think the CAA would get three of the top four seeds in that case? It doesn't have to happen exactly like that, but the point is that with 14 teams in the CAA you are more likely to see more CAA teams with top records.

NO. You'd have 2 CAA seeds in that scenario. Period. 04' JMU was 9-2, 1 I-AA loss. No seed. This past season Nova was 9-2, 1 I-AA loss. No seed. Back in 95' I think it was a 10-1 UD team didn't get a seed. I could provide many more examples. Not a snowball's chance in hell 3 CAA teams, or 3 from any conference will ever get 3 of the 4 seeds.

[BDKJMU]

When I look at their results, I see eight wins, all D-I. xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

Monmouth, Stony Brook, Delaware, Hofstra, Northeastern, Iona, UMass and URI.

My bad- braincramp. Some reason was thinking Iona was a non counter.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I'll gladly defer that answer to ANY of the posts that have been made here, CAAzone, by countless numbers of people who favor a split. But if you need that breakdown, here it is: 14 is too many. there you go. Why be in a 14 team league when there are no benefits when you look at the proposed breakdown of potential new leagues. Why should Maine lock themselves into a situation where they need to travel to Atlanta, W&M, ODU (insert any far reaching school here) when they could be in a league in which they have 5 regional CONFERENCE games, 2 conference games that require further travel (Villanova, Richmond). A school like Maine would then have 4 slots to fill with REGIONAL school like Bryant, Holy Cross, Northeastern, Hofstra, etc available.

There is NO REASON at the FBS level for the New england schools to be forced to travel at any time to schools so far away by being a conference member when they could protect their budgets and choose which distant opponents to play.

Nobody is forcing any of the New England schools to be in the CAA for football. Maine can switch to the NEC any time they want. Wait, they'll have to reduce scholarships. The Patriot wouldn't take them because they're a public institution. And you can't be serious thinking that Richmond and Villanova are joining a football league with Maine, UNH, URI, UMass, Albany and Stony Brook? America East is incapable of sponsoring football. So, what's Maine's option again?

BTW, I don't believe anyone is forcing UNH to travel to the Mid-Atlantic. I've never heard a complaint from anybody. I've only heard how much the affiliation with the CAA South schools is valued.

[Jackman]

Sorry Dane, but it will never happen. IIRC, CSI's affiliation is with UMass. They've never shown any inclination to go along with that AE scenario. Villanova and Richmond wouldn't have any interest either. And all of that is after the assumption that AE is capable of getting a football conference off the ground. They've never shown the aptitude for that. And why would anybody want a conference with only four all sports members?
The A10 once had one with only two all-sports members.

But no, I don't think UMass would cooperate with America East. It's clearly against UMass's self-interest to help a rival conference in its own backyard. If it comes to a split, I'd expect UMass to say either it's a A10-sponsored conference or we're staying in the CAA while the rest of you walk (I'm assuming the CAA would go along with that). Granted, I don't know that we could actually get the A10 to put it together, but there's no upside to pulling the cart for the AE.

As for Albany's chances of CAA Football membership, they could always hope Northeastern calls it quits. Having 13 members is probably even worse than having 14. But now Charlotte's lurking around the edges too.

[paward]

Still waiting by the phone for my invite to join the discussion. :)

Your invitation is been revoked.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

I really don't understand why everyone from outside the CAA thinks they no what's best for ALL CAA teams.

1) Playoffs- If the CAA got auto bids for both the North and the South, then yes, you'd have a bitch. They don't. Think of the north and south as two separate conferences with a scheduling agreement. If the CAA south signed an eight year contract to do a conference challenge with the Socon no one would have any problem with the two conferences getting 5 bids between them. The teams from each conference would only play each other ONCE every 7 or 8 years.

2) Many of the North teams would have no place to turn if the CAA abandoned them. Who is going to step up for a home and home with Maine or UNH if not mandated by a conference. Anyone...anyone...Bueller...Bueller? I would have no problem with calling the CAA North the Yankee as long as the rotating schedule with the CAA continued. What would be different? If that was the case and the Yankee put two teams in the playoffs as at large teams would you continue to bitch?

3) This web site is supposed about the promotion of FCS football. Well guess what my friends, there are a bunch of teams up here in New England that are benefiting greatly, thriving in fact, from their CAA affiliation. You all seem intimidated by their success.



End of rant...back to the PAM thread

[henfan]

seems to you they are non-issues, others are not impervious to one league having over 10% of the division teams in it... with other leagues around it and nationally trying to survive in the midst...

Apparently they are impervious to it. Other than the cries of a few on this message board, there is no great public outcry for the CAA to split because the size of the league is damaging other leagues. The issue has now risen from whispers in shadowy backrooms of conference offices to it becoming a matter of survival?! You cannot be serious.

[gophoenix]

Not this argument again. Elon did not have better wins than Maine.

I think that point is debatable. The difference is, we lost 3 of 4 leading up to selection. That killed us and we had no end of year momentum. So... with that, we were left out, end of story and not sure why it keeps being debated.

What I wish is that we'd joined the CAA back in 2000 when we were approached by the conference.

[Syntax Error]

You all seem intimidated by their success.You can think that if you want, so can other CAAers here, but I and others here are talking about what is good for the FCS in general. A Walmart might not be the best idea. xtwocentsx

[GATA]

Jesus Christ...break the CAA in half.

If they have 14 football teams that means they'll just get at least 8 playoff bids a year.

There is no reason to have 14 football teams in your conference

[Syntax Error]

Apparently they are impervious to it. Other than the cries of a few on this message board, there is no great public outcry for the CAA to split because the size of the league is damaging other leagues. The issue has now risen from whispers in shadowy backrooms of conference offices to it becoming a matter of survival?! You cannot be serious.Me? I have no say in it. But these are not just "whispers in shadowy backrooms of conference offices" at all. Why else would the agenda of the CAA meeting mention breaking into two seperate conferences?

[henfan]

LFN, I think you're misinterpreting the idea that's been floated and rejected before of the A-10 administering two leagues. From what I've been told, the CAA does not support that idea now because it makes little financial or competitive sense for conference members.

Under the terms of the prior proposal brought up during the A-10's reign, the two leagues would have scheduled all but two OOC games against the other league, leaving- you guessed it- no additional OOC games to schedule against other conferences. In fact, under that arrangement, each school would have had the number of open OOC dates reduced by one game.

So I'll leave you to explain how the idea of two leagues administered by the CAA would help other regional FCS conferences who are, as you suggest, longing to schedule CAA teams? Again, IL and PL schools can get games with CAA members simply by opening up their OOC schedules, but many of them are unwilling to do it.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

You can think that if you want, so can other CAAers here, but I and others here are talking about what is good for the FCS in general. A Walmart might not be the best idea. xtwocentsx

So you'd have no problem with changing the name of the CAA North to the Yankee Confecence and continuing with the scheduling agreement as it stands?

[Syntax Error]

So you'd have no problem with changing the name of the CAA North to the Yankee Confecence and continuing with the scheduling agreement as it stands?Is that akin to the AT&T thing? Isn't there an anti-trust issue there? I don't know. We'll just have to wait until there is another league ready to do it, having one office running two leagues of the same kind is not progress.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

Is that akin to the AT&T thing? Isn't there an anti-trust issue there? I don't know.


I just don't understand what unfair advantage the CAA teams have as it is.

[CatMom07]

I really don't understand why everyone from outside the CAA thinks they no what's best for ALL CAA teams.

1) Playoffs- If the CAA got auto bids for both the North and the South, then yes, you'd have a bitch. They don't. Think of the north and south as two separate conferences with a scheduling agreement. If the CAA south signed an eight year contract to do a conference challenge with the Socon no one would have any problem with the two conferences getting 5 bids between them. The teams from each conference would only play each other ONCE every 7 or 8 years.

2) Many of the North teams would have no place to turn if the CAA abandoned them. Who is going to step up for a home and home with Maine or UNH if not mandated by a conference. Anyone...anyone...Bueller...Bueller? I would have no problem with calling the CAA North the Yankee as long as the rotating schedule with the CAA continued. What would be different? If that was the case and the Yankee put two teams in the playoffs as at large teams would you continue to bitch?

3) This web site is supposed about the promotion of FCS football. Well guess what my friends, there are a bunch of teams up here in New England that are benefiting greatly, thriving in fact, from their CAA affiliation. You all seem intimidated by their success.



End of rant...back to the PAM thread

Last I checked this was not a CAA board but an all encompassing FCS board. If this was meant to be exclusive to CAA fans only perhaps it should have been on the CAA forum. Otherwise, other fans have the right and will express their opinions on the thread.

[Syntax Error]

I just don't understand what unfair advantage the CAA teams have as it is.The issues have all been laid out, well most of them anyway, in this thread.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

Last I checked this was not a CAA board but an all encompassing FCS board. If this was meant to be exclusive to CAA fans only perhaps it should have been on the CAA forum. Otherwise, other fans have the right and will express their opinions on the thread.

I understand that....but why does everyone feel that they know whats best for the CAA? And UNH for that matter.

[Syntax Error]

Last I checked this was not a CAA board but an all encompassing FCS board. If this was meant to be exclusive to CAA fans only perhaps it should have been on the CAA forum. Otherwise, other fans have the right and will express their opinions on the thread.

Reminds of when someone posts they wish the SWAC would be in the playoffs and some SWAC fan says "mind your own business"

[henfan]

From the article: "If the choice is a 14-team league with a pair of seven-team divisions, Yeager believes an eight-game CAA obligation would continue."

SE, I think we all know what the conference's strong preference is. Pretty consistent with what I've been told.xreadx

No coincidence that Yeager and O'Conner didn't expand on the two-league administration option. (See my prior post to LFN.)

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

Reminds of when someone posts they wish the SWAC would be in the playoffs and some SWAC fan says "mind your own business"

Just waiting for someone to post a valid reason. All I see is "14 is too many"

[CatMom07]

Just about every thread on this board is about this conference or that or this player or that or this coach or that and people express their opinions and points of view.

I recall people judging Cameron Luke's talent (and height for that matter) without ever having seen him, or see him play. The CAA judges the west coast teams, the west coast teams judge the east. Give me a break. It's a board. It's the nature of the beast.

[Jackman]

It's not about who has the right to comment, it's that outsiders don't seem to appreciate the complexities of the Yankee Conference. Dividing the conference up isn't as simple as people think. It's like a logic puzzle. Tom Yeager is having a party at his house, and needs to divide the guests up among two tables. There are four families: the CAAs, the A10s, the AEs and the BEs. One thought is to sit all the CAAs together, but Delaware insists that Villanova sit next to it, and Richmond wants to sit at the same table as Villanova and the Virginians. UMass however doesn't want to sit with UNH, Maine and URI unless Delaware is there. UNH doesn't want to sit at a table without UMass, and Maine doesn't want to sit at a table without UNH. URI wouldn't mind sitting with the AEs, but insists it should be at the other table if the other A10s are going to be there. Georgia State is traveling from so far away and arriving so late that some think it should sit with the AEs. Finally, Northeastern has more in common with the AEs and A10s than its own family, but isn't sure it even likes parties anymore and might not show up. Find a way to seat them all so that no fewer than 6 are sitting at each table.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

It's not about who has the right to comment, it's that outsiders don't seem to appreciate the complexities of the Yankee Conference. Dividing the conference up isn't as simple as people think. It's like a logic puzzle. Tom Yeager is having a party at his house, and needs to divide the guests up among two tables. There are four families: the CAAs, the A10s, the AEs and the BEs. One thought is to sit all the CAAs together, but Delaware insists that Villanova sit next to it, and Richmond wants to sit at the same table as Villanova and the Virginians. UMass however doesn't want to sit with UNH, Maine and URI unless Delaware is there. UNH doesn't want to sit at a table without UMass, and Maine doesn't want to sit at a table without UNH. URI wouldn't mind sitting with the AEs, but insists it should be at the other table if the other A10s are going to be there. Georgia State is traveling from so far away and arriving so late that some think it should sit with the AEs. Finally, Northeastern has more in common with the AEs and A10s than its own family, but isn't sure it even likes parties anymore and might not show up. Find a way to seat them all so that no fewer than 6 are sitting at each table.


Before this puzzle can be put together, I have a question ... is there a good football game on TV and does Tom Yeager have tray tables to take into the den?

[CatMom07]

Understand. The SLC currently has 8 and adding Lamar in 2010 with a possibility of adding UTSA later. It will be a mess and may have to go that splitting mode. It will be a mess to figure out too.

However, I'm not putting out an opinion on what the CAA should or should not do. Just trying to advocate for others to express their own, good or bad, right or wrong.

[Keeper]

The immediate question to be addressed by the administrators is how to fairly schedule 13 teams when
ODU comes in. Probably a one-time scenario, but what if the CAA goes back to 13 after G-State leaves?

[UNHFan]

Sorry I didnt read all these posts but isnt Stoneybrook the smart move? Again havent read all the posts. I am sure yhey are smart FCS Talk Stoneybook is making such a stride (Stadium/schedule) to be an FCS Player

[henfan]

The immediate question to be addressed by the administrators is how to fairly schedule 13 teams when
ODU comes in. Probably a one-time scenario, but what if the CAA goes back to 13 after G-State leaves?

GSU won't play a CAA game for 3 more years and and already people have them leaving.

If a team or teams should ever leave the league, the league will deal with it. If additional teams are added, the league will deal with it. Clearly, this group has 60+ years of collective experience dealing with membership changes. xthumbsupx

[Jackman]

Sorry I didnt read all these posts but isnt Stoneybrook the smart move? Again havent read all the posts. I am sure yhey are smart FCS Talk Stoneybook is making such a stride (Stadium/schedule) to be an FCS Player
I'd think SBU would be in the discussion, especially if Albany can't do something about its stadium. On the other hand, they're kind of on Hofstra's turf.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, I think you're misinterpreting the idea that's been floated and rejected before of the A-10 administering two leagues. From what I've been told, the CAA does not support that idea now because it makes little financial or competitive sense for conference members.

If you feel that this is indeed true, then how come you then turn around and say that they're not going to split because they'll lose TV bargaining rights? Either it makes financial sense, or it doesn't.


So I'll leave you to explain how the idea of two leagues administered by the CAA would help other regional FCS conferences who are, as you suggest, longing to schedule CAA teams? Again, IL and PL schools can get games with CAA members simply by opening up their OOC schedules, but many of them are unwilling to do it.

Because Delaware and James Madison can't play everybody every year. If you think CAA North folks would be lining up for home-and-homes with Towson and Villanova, you're nuts. They'd be much more likely to play a team like Fordham.


Think of the north and south as two separate conferences with a scheduling agreement....

Which is exactly how the playoff subcommittee thinks of them. Wonder what Elon, Liberty and William & Mary think about that?


If the CAA south signed an eight year contract to do a conference challenge with the Socon no one would have any problem with the two conferences getting 5 bids between them. The teams from each conference would only play each other ONCE every 7 or 8 years.

I would have no problem with calling the CAA North the Yankee as long as the rotating schedule with the CAA continued. What would be different? If that was the case and the Yankee put two teams in the playoffs as at large teams would you continue to bitch?

The difference is that the charade of "Maine is a great team since James Madison beat Appalachian State" would end, and Maine's wins over Towson would be OOC victories instead of wins towards a CAA title - which nobody here seems to care about, but the players and coaches sure seem to.

I have no problem with the new Yankee Conference getting an autobid and an at-large as long as they earn it.

[mainejeff]

There was also another proposal in 2004/5 that included an AE FB league containing:

Albany
Stony Brook
Maine
Rhode Island
Northeastern
New Hampshire
UMass
Hofstra

We saw the proposal at an Albany alumni function.
That was apparently rejected also.

And THAT was a shame. :(

[mainejeff]

Why the size of the CAA matters so much to non-CAA people always amazes me. xlolx

Me too. xeyebrowx

[mainejeff]

Please, Holy Cross could get those games today if they really wanted them. For example, UNH has an opening for 2009 and AFAIK only has the Dartmouth and Pitt games nailed down for 2010, and only Dartmouth for 2011, but I bet Holy Cross will play Northeastern and Harvard, Yale, Brown and Dartmouth for their OOC. Or some other combo of Ivy League schools or with a Pioneer team thrown in instead. They can get a second game with a CAA school the day they're willing to give up an Ivy League game.

Sorry you think games were "wasted on Dixie schools" because nothing could be farther from the truth.

Amen......Maine would play Holy Cross at the drop of a hat if Holy Cross signed on the dotted line.

[Jackman]

We got the Cross in 2010 and 2011, get your own Patsie league opponent. I'd rather have Harvard, but they won't play the ol' state U.

[JayJ79]

A "conference" without true round-robin play is not a real conference.

[BDKJMU]

Jesus Christ...break the CAA in half.

If they have 14 football teams that means they'll just get at least 8 playoff bids a year.

There is no reason to have 14 football teams in your conference

Not a snowball's chance in hell they would ever get more than 6 out of 20, or 5 of 10 At-Large. Not any different percentage wise than getting 4 of 8 At-Large the CAA has gotten the last 2 seasons, or a 7 team conference getting 3 teams in. In 03' and 06' 7 team Gateway (MVFC) got 3 of 7 teams in.

[BDKJMU]

You can think that if you want, so can other CAAers here, but I and others here are talking about what is good for the FCS in general. A Walmart might not be the best idea. xtwocentsx

xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

[CatMom07]

If you all don't see why other conferences have a beef you're wearing blinders. This is the problem/argument. No conference, no matter the records, should have 31% of the teams in the playoffs. It's skewed. It's...it's BCS territory.

However, this is off topic of this thread so I'll leave the CAA 14 team mess to someone else to figure out.

[BDKJMU]

If you all don't see why other conferences have a beef you're wearing blinders. This is the problem/argument. No conference, no matter the records, should have 31% of the teams in the playoffs. It's skewed. It's...it's BCS territory.

However, this is off topic of this thread so I'll leave the CAA 14 team mess to someone else to figure out.

"No conference, no matter the records, should have 31% of the teams in the playoffs" BASED ON WHAT FACTS/EVIDENCE?

The playoffs are suppose to be the Auto bids plus the best 8 (and in 2010) 10 AT-Large teams. Period. Doesn't matter how many come from one conference. Doesn't matter if 25%, or 30%, or 35% of the teams end up coming from one conference.
In the last 5 years in the playoffs:
MEAC: 0-5
Patriot: 0-7 (2 teams in 04' & 05')
OVC: 0-8 (2 teams in 04', 06', 07')
Southland: 4-7 (2 teams in 04' & 05': 04' SHS & 05' Tx State made semis. 5 other teams in all 1st round losses. 0-3 the last 3 seasons)

None of those conferences has an arguement that they're not getting enough teams in because the teams they are getting in aren't winning games.

Now over those same 5 seasons:
CAA: 26-16 (23-13 when not playing each other- S0-Con, BSC, & MVFC have only faced conference opponent once each in last 5 playoffs, while its happened 3x with CAA teams).
So-Con 17-7 (ASU 13-1, rest 4-7)
MVFC: 13-10
BSC: 12-10

The only 8 win/3 loss from those 4 conferences over the last 5 playoffs that got royally screwed was 05' YSU when they got left out at 8-3 & the committee took a 2nd Patriot (Lafayette) instead. So BASED ON PLAYOFF RECORD, no one can argue that the CAA is getting too many teams in.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/stats/football_records/DI/2008/DI2008-ChampResults.pdf

[Tribe4SF]

It's not about who has the right to comment, it's that outsiders don't seem to appreciate the complexities of the Yankee Conference. Dividing the conference up isn't as simple as people think. It's like a logic puzzle. Tom Yeager is having a party at his house, and needs to divide the guests up among two tables. There are four families: the CAAs, the A10s, the AEs and the BEs. One thought is to sit all the CAAs together, but Delaware insists that Villanova sit next to it, and Richmond wants to sit at the same table as Villanova and the Virginians. UMass however doesn't want to sit with UNH, Maine and URI unless Delaware is there. UNH doesn't want to sit at a table without UMass, and Maine doesn't want to sit at a table without UNH. URI wouldn't mind sitting with the AEs, but insists it should be at the other table if the other A10s are going to be there. Georgia State is traveling from so far away and arriving so late that some think it should sit with the AEs. Finally, Northeastern has more in common with the AEs and A10s than its own family, but isn't sure it even likes parties anymore and might not show up. Find a way to seat them all so that no fewer than 6 are sitting at each table.

xthumbsupx I believe you have captured the breadth of the puzzle. The final seating, of course, will be decided primarily by those who carry the most weight with the host. The table with UD, Towson, JMU, W&M and ODU will want their "dates" (Villanova and UR) to be seated with them. The host will have a hard time saying no.

[henfan]

If you feel that this is indeed true, then how come you then turn around and say that they're not going to split because they'll lose TV bargaining rights? Either it makes financial sense, or it doesn't.

It's not my opinion that this is true; it was the conclusion drawn by these very same schools when they last visited the subject a few years ago. They determined then that administering two leagues under the same umbrella made little economic or competitive sense.

I've not heard or read any statements from either the conference office or any of the schools that would indicate that the two league option has widespread support right now. Will they discuss it in January and in the future? Absolutely, just as the league has repeatedly discussed the notion of across the board equivalancy reductions... another idea that has been rejected time and again.



Because Delaware and James Madison can't play everybody every year. If you think CAA North folks would be lining up for home-and-homes with Towson and Villanova, you're nuts. They'd be much more likely to play a team like Fordham.

Under the terms of the prior two league proposal, schools from each league would have been mandated to play a set number of OOL games against teams from the opposing league. UD & JMU would have been on a regular rotation, just like TU, VU & every other school under what was then the A-10's umbrella. The net result would still have been 1 less OOC game to schedule each year, twelve less available scheduling dates for PL, IL and NEC schools trying to get dates with A-10 teams. Again, it would have resulted in less, not more, OOC games for other leagues.



Which is exactly how the playoff subcommittee thinks of them. Wonder what Elon, Liberty and William & Mary think about that?

And this is fact, rather than your opinion, based on what evidence?

[henfan]

A "conference" without true round-robin play is not a real conference.

That may be your opinion, but it's contrary to reality, which, in this case is the NCAA's actual definition of an eligible conference. (See the NCAA Div. I Manual, Articles 3.3, 18.5 and 31.3.)xreadx

[ChickenMan]

A "conference" without true round-robin play is not a real conference.

Tell that to the SEC, ACC, Big 10 and Big 12... xrolleyesx

[danefan]

Sorry I didnt read all these posts but isnt Stoneybrook the smart move? Again havent read all the posts. I am sure yhey are smart FCS Talk Stoneybook is making such a stride (Stadium/schedule) to be an FCS Player

There are a few "issues" with SBU.

1. Hofstra.
2. Word on the street is they are in deep financial trouble, and they just lost their sugar daddy in the NYS government (Ken Lavalle - Republican who used to chair the Higher Ed committee, with limited power now in a Dem controlled gov't).
3. Are we talking affiliate status or full-sport membership? If affiliate, I understand the talk about SBU, but if full-sport, Albany goes over SBU without question.
4. Hofstra.
5. I think if a CAA membership (affiliate or otherwise) was offered to Albany, you'd see some serious movement facilities-wise. Nothing like what was orginally planned ($60 mil stadium) but some renovation more than adequate for CAA play. I don't know that for sure, but I would be willing to bet.
6. Hofstra

[ur2k]

It looks like this thread boils down to 1) Non-CAA people see having a large conference as a problem - although I'm not sure the reasons why. The best arguements so far have been "14 is too big" and "it will affect other schools' recruiting" or "it's like having a FCS Wal-Mart". None of these strike me as a real reason to blow-up the conference.

and 2) most of the CAA posters seem to have no problem with the set-up as-is. It's a little bulky but I think we are happier keeping the history of the UD-VU, JMU-UD, JMU-UR, UR-W&M,UMASS-UNH etc. etc. match-ups together officially than splitting everyone up. And at the same time keeping the all-sports members in the conference happy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Most of the CAA posters seem to have no problem with the set-up as-is. It's a little bulky but I think we are happier keeping the history of the UD-VU, JMU-UD, JMU-UR, UR-W&M,UMASS-UNH etc. etc. match-ups together officially than splitting everyone up. And at the same time keeping the all-sports members in the conference happy.

A break up into two separate conferences would only - potentially - affect one of those rivalry games. Move Villanova to the south and Towson to the north and all those rivalries are preserved. So if you're trying to use this as the "only good reason" to keep the 14 team megaconference together, it's a poor example. These rivalries will clearly continue.

Besides, the only way these rivalry games would be kept up every year is to put them in the same division. Any UMass/UD "rivalry", for example, already isn't played every year, and would only get worse in a 14 team conference. In separate conferences, actually, UMass could set up a deal with UD to play them every year if they want to.

(Of course they'd all be played at the tub, but... :D )

Point is, though, preservation of rivalries is not a compelling reason to stay together.

[ngineer]

A break up into two separate conferences would only - potentially - affect one of those rivalry games. Move Villanova to the south and Towson to the north and all those rivalries are preserved. So if you're trying to use this as the "only good reason" to keep the 14 team megaconference together, it's a poor example. These rivalries will clearly continue.

Besides, the only way these rivalry games would be kept up every year is to put them in the same division. Any UMass/UD "rivalry", for example, already isn't played every year, and would only get worse in a 14 team conference. In separate conferences, actually, UMass could set up a deal with UD to play them every year if they want to.

(Of course they'd all be played at the tub, but... :D )

Point is, though, preservation of rivalries is not a compelling reason to stay together.


...except for 'one' with which we are fairly familiar....;) :D

[DFW HOYA]

A break up into two separate conferences would only - potentially - affect one of those rivalry games. Move Villanova to the south and Towson to the north and all those rivalries are preserved.


Does Villanova really want to become a southern school (schedule-wise) just to maintain the UD game?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've not heard or read any statements from either the conference office or any of the schools that would indicate that the two league option has widespread support right now. Will they discuss it in January and in the future? Absolutely, just as the league has repeatedly discussed the notion of across the board equivalancy reductions... another idea that has been rejected time and again.

We don't know what the board is thinking. Assuming that it will be rejected out of hand is just as speculative as saying that they'll break up into two conferences.


Under the terms of the prior two league proposal, schools from each league would have been mandated to play a set number of OOL games against teams from the opposing league. UD & JMU would have been on a regular rotation, just like TU, VU & every other school under what was then the A-10's umbrella. The net result would still have been 1 less OOC game to schedule each year, twelve less available scheduling dates for PL, IL and NEC schools trying to get dates with A-10 teams. Again, it would have resulted in less, not more, OOC games for other leagues.

And I bet UD was the first in line to shoot that down. Why should they be forced to play UMass on the road when they could schedule Lehigh or Albany at home? But more importantly, who's to say that this is on the table this time? The landscape has changed - ODU and Georgia State are on the table now, and so, potentially, is UNCC. What didn't make sense then may make sense now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Tell that to the SEC, ACC, Big 10 and Big 12... xrolleyesx

.. All of whom have championship games. The CAA would be the biggest football conference in Division I without a conference championship game. Matter of fact, they may already be the biggest, and they would simply be getting bigger by going to 14.

[ur2k]

A break up into two separate conferences would only - potentially - affect one of those rivalry games. Move Villanova to the south and Towson to the north and all those rivalries are preserved. So if you're trying to use this as the "only good reason" to keep the 14 team megaconference together, it's a poor example. These rivalries will clearly continue.

Besides, the only way these rivalry games would be kept up every year is to put them in the same division. Any UMass/UD "rivalry", for example, already isn't played every year, and would only get worse in a 14 team conference. In separate conferences, actually, UMass could set up a deal with UD to play them every year if they want to.

(Of course they'd all be played at the tub, but... :D )

Point is, though, preservation of rivalries is not a compelling reason to stay together.

But since this is already an established conference, it's easier for all parties to stay together and figure out the scheduling mess of it all.

What's the compelling arguement for splitting it all up? I haven't seen that yet.

[Tribe4SF]

Does Villanova really want to become a southern school (schedule-wise) just to maintain the UD game?

Villanova has been part of the Southern Division for years, and is more tied to the southern schools than it is to the northern ones. W&M, UR and JMU may be lesser rivals than UD, but they are still meaningful. With ODU coming in, Villanova gets six annual games within driving distance, and all of those will bring good crowds to their place. "Southern" is a bit of a misnomer for the division. It's "mid-atlantic", and with Nova, UD, TU, JMU, UR, W&M and ODU the longest road trip is 270 miles.

Georgia State will be flying to all their conference games anyway, and I expect them to get slotted with the northern division.

[Tribe4SF]

.. All of whom have championship games. The CAA would be the biggest football conference in Division I without a conference championship game. Matter of fact, they may already be the biggest, and they would simply be getting bigger by going to 14.


The relevant question is...So what?

[ChickenMan]

.. All of whom have championship games. The CAA would be the biggest football conference in Division I without a conference championship game. Matter of fact, they may already be the biggest, and they would simply be getting bigger by going to 14.


Not all.. the Big 10 doesn't play a round-robin and they don't have a championship game.

But what's the beef??? Whether the CAA goes to a 14 team league or splits into two separate conferences.. the rest of the FCS will still see a similar amount of CAA or ex-CAA schools in playoffs every year. In fact ..you may actually see more of those current CAA teams in the playoffs.. as the new 7 member leagues won't have to play 8 league games a year in the most competitive conference in the FCS.

[CRAZY_DANE]

Sorry I didnt read all these posts but isnt Stoneybrook the smart move? Again havent read all the posts. I am sure yhey are smart FCS Talk Stoneybook is making such a stride (Stadium/schedule) to be an FCS Player

Stony Brook has a stadium. True.

Albany has a top 20 Lax team. A better BBall team. A football team that went undefeated in conference last year and is only waiting for a full schollie home. Add to that our NCAA appearances for volleyball, softball and baseball. Albany is clearly and objectively the most successful SUNY in athletics.

Albany is the clear choice if you want an all sports member. We'll get a stadium or something suitable. Don't let a short term hurdle stop a long term decision.

Also, the NY Capitol District is this county's 57th largest TV market. It's growing, as opposed to the rest of upstate NY. Millions of New Yorkers live within an hour of Albany... and unlike Buffalo they don't have a NFL team in their back yard. This area is starving for some attention.

[danefan]

Not all.. the Big 10 doesn't play a round-robin and they don't have a championship game.

But what's the beef??? Whether the CAA goes to a 14 team league or splits into two separate conferences.. the rest of the FCS will still see a similar amount of CAA or ex-CAA schools in playoffs every year. In fact ..you may actually see more of those current CAA teams in the playoffs.. as the new 7 member leagues won't have to play 8 league games a year in the most competitive conference in the FCS.


Does that spur teams like Northeastern, Hofstra, and Rhode Island to want a split?

[danefan]

Stony Brook has a stadium. True.

Albany has a top 20 Lax team. A better BBall team. A football team that went undefeated in conference last year and is only waiting for a full schollie home. Add to that our NCAA appearances for volleyball, softball and baseball. Albany is clearly and objectively the most successful SUNY in athletics.

Albany is the clear choice if you want an all sports member. We'll get a stadium or something suitable. Don't let a short term hurdle stop a long term decision.

Also, the NY Capitol District is this county's 57th largest TV market. It's growing, as opposed to the rest of upstate NY. Millions of New Yorkers live within an hour of Albany... and unlike Buffalo they don't have a NFL team in their back yard. This area is starving for some attention.

And before anyone starts to compare SBU to Albany using SBU's access to NYC media markets - let me just say this: they have none and it takes about the same exact amount of time to travel to Stony Brook from Manhattan as it does to travel to Albany.

OK, now that's out of the way. xthumbsupx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

It's not about who has the right to comment, it's that outsiders don't seem to appreciate the complexities of the Yankee Conference. Dividing the conference up isn't as simple as people think. It's like a logic puzzle. Tom Yeager is having a party at his house, and needs to divide the guests up among two tables. There are four families: the CAAs, the A10s, the AEs and the BEs. One thought is to sit all the CAAs together, but Delaware insists that Villanova sit next to it, and Richmond wants to sit at the same table as Villanova and the Virginians. UMass however doesn't want to sit with UNH, Maine and URI unless Delaware is there. UNH doesn't want to sit at a table without UMass, and Maine doesn't want to sit at a table without UNH. URI wouldn't mind sitting with the AEs, but insists it should be at the other table if the other A10s are going to be there. Georgia State is traveling from so far away and arriving so late that some think it should sit with the AEs. Finally, Northeastern has more in common with the AEs and A10s than its own family, but isn't sure it even likes parties anymore and might not show up. Find a way to seat them all so that no fewer than 6 are sitting at each table.

This is exactly why it is a puzzle. xbowx xbowx

What is really distressing is that this forum used to be a home for intelligent discussion about FCS. I see very few posters from outside the CAA who are willing to examine this issue in depth and understand its complexity.

[henfan]

We don't know what the board is thinking. Assuming that it will be rejected out of hand is just as speculative as saying that they'll break up into two conferences.

Fair enough. As fans, we need to keep in mind that no one on this board has special insight as to how this thing is going to play out; however (and you just knew that was comingxsmiley_wix )... there are opinions and informed opinions.

It's my opinion, based on the conference's history, what little has been reported in the press, and, yes, what I've been told directly by Tom Yeager, that we are headed for nothing more than a reshuffling of divisional lineup within the CAA. You and others may consider my opinion informed, or not. Suit yourself. We'll know the results soon enough.


And I bet UD was the first in line to shoot that down.

Seems you're on your way to understanding why anything more than an 8-game schedule among CAA sponsored teams would appear to be a non-starter. Good.xthumbsupx

Yes, in all probability, UD would be driven by the desire to gain access to more, not fewer, OOC games. It's been the history that the conference majority has come down on that side. There are a few in the league who still have trouble landing OOC home games. A 9 conference game guarantee was one of the primary motivations of the minority who supported separate league administration in the past. Essentially, it was a way for them to get one extra guaranteed home game.

Again, it's an idea that has been tried and it hasn't worked for the majority. I'd be surprised if issue wasn't continually discussed, along with scholarship reductions, and other even less feasible ideas.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

xthumbsupx I believe you have captured the breadth of the puzzle. The final seating, of course, will be decided primarily by those who carry the most weight with the host. The table with UD, Towson, JMU, W&M and ODU will want their "dates" (Villanova and UR) to be seated with them. The host will have a hard time saying no.

Why aren't Northeastern and Hofstra at that table? Aren't they all sports members of the CAA too? xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Has anybody considered that expanding to 14 is a temporary necessity to determine what happens if the expected conference implosion occurs? The most significant impact of that implosion will be in the Northeast IMHO. Or as a means to keep the teams that are going to remain FCS together while giving those that have FBS aspirations a stepping stone?

[henfan]

...preservation of rivalries is not a compelling reason to stay together.

LFN, I don't often agree with your perspective, but I've always respected your opinion and passion for the FCS. However, the above comment jumps the shark! xoopsx

[Cobblestone]

Why aren't Northeastern and Hofstra at that table? Aren't they all sports members of the CAA too? xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex


They'll be fighting with URI for the leftovers.

[Cobblestone]

I could see 'Nova having some FBS aspirations. Personally, I'd still like to see the original YC teams (include Northeastern in this) grouped together somehow.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, I don't often agree with your perspective, but I've always respected your opinion and passion for the FCS. However, the above comment jumps the shark! xoopsx

I'm real surprised that folks are jumping on me on this.

All the quoted rivalries (JMU/UD, UR/JMU, UR/W&M, UNH/UMass, UD/Villanova, and maybe another that is escaping me) would not be broken up with a conference split, assuming Villanova is in the CAA and not the "new Yankee". These scheduled rivalries would happen every year, as scheduled.

The only "rivalries" that would be broken up are ones that are a home-and-home after six years between CAA and "New Yankee" schools - which would hardly be a rivalry anyway, now would it, in a 14-team CAA?

This is why I say that "preservation of rivalries" is zero reason to keep at 14 teams. All the quoted rivalries would still be played yearly after a split, assuming UD and Villanova are together.

[Tribe4SF]

Why aren't Northeastern and Hofstra at that table? Aren't they all sports members of the CAA too? xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

The table in question relates only to the potential realignment for football. That's the party Yeager is hosting, and that's the table that will swing the weight. Hofstra and Northeastern may not be thrilled at the prospect of Ga. St. joining the Northern Division, but the southern schools will have them outnumbered.

[ATrain]

Is VCU still considering football? By 2015, the CAA could have 16 teams, counting VCU and Charlotte (if they're interested in joining and the CAA wants them).

[henfan]

This is why I say that "preservation of rivalries" is zero reason to keep at 14 teams. All the quoted rivalries would still be played yearly after a split, assuming UD and Villanova are together.

...assuming the CAA ever agreed to administer two separate football conferences and assuming these two separate conferences reached a guaranteed regular scheduling agreement. But this scenario offers no benefits in terms of scheduling to the PL or other FCS conferences, so I'm not sure why you'd lobby for it.

Of course you understand how rivalries would disappear altogether if the affiliates and full CAA members were ever to part ways under separate league administration (think LU-UD and their long lamented former Middle Atlantic States Conference rivalry.) You might argue this option might benefit other leagues who are earnestly looking for games (certainly not the PL or IL!), though, underscoring my point, at the expense of valuable CAA rivalries.

[henfan]

Is VCU still considering football? By 2015, the CAA could have 16 teams, counting VCU and Charlotte (if they're interested in joining and the CAA wants them).

There have been no reports of VCU studying the subject of a FB startup. The CAA has not contacted or heard from Charlotte about possible FB membership, according to the RTD article linked on this thread.

[ur2k]

I'm real surprised that folks are jumping on me on this.

All the quoted rivalries (JMU/UD, UR/JMU, UR/W&M, UNH/UMass, UD/Villanova, and maybe another that is escaping me) would not be broken up with a conference split, assuming Villanova is in the CAA and not the "new Yankee". These scheduled rivalries would happen every year, as scheduled.

The only "rivalries" that would be broken up are ones that are a home-and-home after six years between CAA and "New Yankee" schools - which would hardly be a rivalry anyway, now would it, in a 14-team CAA?

This is why I say that "preservation of rivalries" is zero reason to keep at 14 teams. All the quoted rivalries would still be played yearly after a split, assuming UD and Villanova are together.

I get what you're saying. But I really don't see the CAA splitting into two conferences - say for example the "New Yankee" and the CAA and not keeping the all-sports CAA teams in the CAA conference. And what benefit to the league office does adminstering 2 separate football conferences bring?

The only logical place for a split IMHO is between the affiliates and the all-sports members and I don't see that happening because of the rivalries and long-term football relationships referenced earlier - from the Yankee to the a10 to the CAA.

Although the CAA could give UR a good old F-U for leaving for the a10 and send us packing but I don't really see that happening.

Just for a recap on who plays in the CAA:

Full CAA members are
Hofstra
Northeastern
JMU
William & Mary
Delaware
Towson
ODU (adding football)
GSU (adding football)

Affiliate football members
Richmond
UNH
Maine
UMASS
URI
Villanova

[Syntax Error]

LFN, I don't often agree with your perspective
there are opinions and informed opinions.
All the quoted rivalries (JMU/UD, UR/JMU, UR/W&M, UNH/UMass, UD/Villanova, and maybe another that is escaping me) would not be broken up with a conference split, assuming Villanova is in the CAA and not the "new Yankee". These scheduled rivalries would happen every year, as scheduled... This is why I say that "preservation of rivalries" is zero reason to keep at 14 teams. All the quoted rivalries would still be played yearly after a split, assuming UD and Villanova are together.
...assuming the CAA ever agreed to administer two separate football conferences and assuming these two separate conferences reached a guaranteed regular scheduling agreement... underscoring my point, at the expense of valuable CAA rivalries.Apparently this non-recognition of points is a smokescreen for CAA types because it seems like whatever is good for the CAA is the only option. Forget what is good for the division, which is being discussed here. CAA so-called informed opinions are the only ones that matter and the CAA types seemingly refuse to recognize anything else. xoopsx One conference admins two same leagues is preposterous, if "rivalries" want to continue they will schedule each other... no league mandated agreement is necessary. But as laid out here, all the quoted rivalries would still be played yearly after a split.

As I said, a new league will only be born when another entity steps up.

[Tribe4SF]

Apparently this non-recognition of points is a smokescreen for CAA types because it seems like whatever is good for the CAA is the only option. Forget what is good for the division, which is being discussed here.

How does the CAA decision on handling 14 teams affect the division? What should we taking into account in contemplating the 14 team issue in order to protect the interests of the division?

I ask this because, in all honesty, I don't know the answer, and have found nothing in this thread to provide me with an answer. I'm trying to envision how any outcome could be adverse to say the Missouri Valley, or the MEAC, and I can't see how it would be.

Help me out.

[Syntax Error]

How does the CAA decision on handling 14 teams affect the division? What should we taking into account in contemplating the 14 team issue in order to protect the interests of the division? I ask this because, in all honesty, I don't know the answer, and have found nothing in this thread to provide me with an answer. I'm trying to envision how any outcome could be adverse to say the Missouri Valley, or the MEAC, and I can't see how it would be. Help me out.Exactly why I said it T4SF. A half dozen reasons (or more) have been given yet CAA types keep asking "what?????" and "nothing in this thread" gives a reason. It is at the point of absurd.

Just say it, all the reasons given do not benefit the CAA so they are not real reasons.

xpeacex

[jmufan999]

god, i can't read some of these replies anymore. some of these comments are funny.

why on earth would UMass, UNH, and Villanova leave the CAA for a new conference? what would be their motivation? and no, just being in a smaller conference doesn't cut it. right now, they're in the top (or at least the top 2 if you want to get argumentative) conference in the nation, 10 total bids to the tourney the last 2 years. why on earth would they change anything? lehigh, albany, whoever is throwing this out, i'm sure your programs are great. but umass joining with you doesn't make any sense for them. i think some of the people making these propositions are looking at it as "how will it benefit MY school", without thinking about how it would negatively affect a powerhouse like UMass, Nova, or UNH.

[Syntax Error]

some of these comments are funnyAgreed (but maybe not for the reasons you gave) xnodx

[ur2k]

Exactly why I said it T4SF. A half dozen reasons (or more) have been given yet CAA types keep asking "what?????" and "nothing in this thread" gives a reason. It is at the point of absurd.

Just say it, all the reasons given do not benefit the CAA so they are not real reasons.

xpeacex

SE - please tell us what those reasons are. I, like T4SF haven't seen them listed here. Or maybe I missed them in the 20 pages of the thread. A summary would be lovely. xnodx

[Syntax Error]

A summary would be lovely.Go for it! xthumbsupx

[saint0917]

Here's what I would do. Bring back the A-10

A-10 Teams
Umass
URI
UNH
Maine
Duquesne
Richmond
Dayton
Fordham

I would add Duqusene and Dayton, not to my likeing but they are already part of tha A10


CAA
Delaware
Hofstra
Towson
William & Mary
James Madison
Georgia State
Northeastern
Old Dominion

Send Villanova to The Patriot League xtwocentsx

[bostonspider]

Why not make Fordham be in the new A10? I do not see UR abandoning their traditional football rivals for an inferior league.

[saint0917]

Why not make Fordham be in the new A10? I do not see UR abandoning their traditional football rivals for an inferior league.

I forgot about Fordham, my bad. UR already has ties to the A10 and none to the CAA. I wouldn't call the New A10 inferior th the CAA, the only power house will be William $ Mary and James Madison. Delaware & Hofstra are on the downslide Towson is so-so, Northeastern is well Northestern. And it will be YEARS before Georgia State and Old Dominion show any signs of life.

[bostonspider]

Well their ties to the CAA are that they are in the CAA Football Conference currently, and have the most played rivalry in the South with W&M. They are not going anywhere.

[henfan]

Apparently this non-recognition of points is a smokescreen for CAA types because it seems like whatever is good for the CAA is the only option. Forget what is good for the division, which is being discussed here..

No. If I'm not mistaken, the point of the RTD article and, indeed, the upcoming CAA AD meeting is not to mulling over the best interests of other leagues but, rather, finding a workable solution for the CAA moving forward. There are times and places in the context of NCAA/FCS membership meetings that the CAA can discuss issues other leagues might have with them, if it should come to that.

Unfortunately (again), a thread about the CAA's meeting to sort out its scheduling and divisional alignment issues has been hijacked by those would want to change the topic of discussion and create fantasy conference scenarios. That's fine, just don't complain when "CAA types" try to steer the discussion back to the topic at hand.


One conference admins two same leagues is preposterous, if "rivalries" want to continue they will schedule each other... no league mandated agreement is necessary.

I agree that it's preposterous, and so did the former A-10 membership... and yet there are a few members still pushing for it, as Tom Yeager's recent comment suggests. Then again, there remains minority support for scholarship reductions, another outlandish idea that's been discussed and rejected several times by the conference.

Assuming that rivalries would continue outside of league mandates completely ignores the financial issues at play. Rivarlies are terribly important but sometimes economic good sense prevails. (Just as an example, UD & UNH have had a highly competitive rivalry extending back over 30 years. For the sake of argument, if UD & UNH were to end up in entirely separate leagues, would it make fiscal sense for UD to settle for a revenue negative home-home deal UNH or two lucrative home dates against other FCS schools? Would it make competitive or financial sense for UNH to play in Newark every time? That's but one illustrative example.)


As I said, a new league will only be born when another entity steps up.

Obviously. Few would argue with that point and it just may happen someday. In the meantime and at the risk of getting back on topic, this has nothing to do with the coming CAA AD meeting. xpeacex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Assuming that rivalries would continue outside of league mandates completely ignores the financial issues at play. Rivarlies are terribly important but sometimes economic good sense prevails. (Just as an example, UD & UNH have had a highly competitive rivalry extending back over 30 years. For the sake of argument, if UD & UNH were to end up in entirely separate leagues, would it make fiscal sense for UD to settle for a revenue negative home-home deal UNH or two lucrative home dates against other FCS schools? Would it make competitive or financial sense for UNH to play in Newark every time?)

This, of course, assumes that the UD/UNH "rivalry" as it stands after a 14-team CAA comes into exists was, or currently is, a rivalry in any sense. After all, they'd play a home-and-home once every six years. Entire classes would only have played UNH or UD once - and entire classes wouldn't have seen them at home.

However, without the burden of a 14-team conference, UD and UNH could, should they chose, play each other every year if they wanted to. UNH & UD would be then free to make fiscal decisions in NH's and UD's best interest instead of getting fenced into a trip once every six years of questionable value to the schools.

[Franks Tanks]

Here's what I would do. Bring back the A-10

A-10 Teams
Umass
URI
UNH
Maine
Duquesne
Richmond
Dayton
Fordham

I would add Duqusene and Dayton, not to my likeing but they are already part of tha A10


CAA
Delaware
Hofstra
Towson
William & Mary
James Madison
Georgia State
Northeastern
Old Dominion

Send Villanova to The Patriot League xtwocentsx


Why would Fordham and Nova flip -flop? Either they both stay where they are or Fordham joins the revamped A-10. I dont see both teams moving as the PL is trying to avoid associate members.

[Tribe4SF]

That's why I said WHEN. There is too much rabble already from around the nation about conferences that are too big. I heard it from many other commissioners and ADs.

Lacking a meaningful response in your previous post, I'll ask again what the objection is to a large conference, and how it impacts other schools, and the division. All I find for reasons are "It's too big", and references like "monstrosity", and "behemoth". So what are these commissioners and ADs saying is wrong with the big conferences?

If it's a question of asthetics, that's fine. I would prefer the conference be smaller myself, but I fail to see how its size impacts anyone other than its own members.

[ur2k]

Go for it! xthumbsupx

Actually I was hoping you would be able to sum up the reasons since they seem to be so obvious to you. I figured it wouldn't be tough at all for you to throw a quick summary post together.

I haven't seen them yet, forgive me, I may be a little slow. xcoffeex

[Go...gate]

This is an intriguing thread, as something clearly will have to give as the CAA expands. Seems like a LOT of schools want in and they are in the enviable position of being able to pick and choose members.

[henfan]

This, of course, assumes that the UD/UNH "rivalry" as it stands after a 14-team CAA comes into exists was, or currently is, a rivalry in any sense. After all, they'd play a home-and-home once every six years. Entire classes would only have played UNH or UD once - and entire classes wouldn't have seen them at home.

This belies the fact that rivalries matter to more than just those who play the game. Arguably, they matter just as much to fans & alums, who typically have a deeper sense of historical perspective. Fortunately, it doesn't matter one fig if anyone outside of the conference deems CAA rivalries of "questionable value".

Though the two teams haven't played in the same conference for a couple of generations, the LU-UD rivalry is renewed every time they play, rare though it has been. The game is special for reasons that extend beyond a single game. Regular season games, infrequent though they've been, have been diminished by the fact that there's no longer a conference record at stake.

As a fan, I wish UD & LU played more often and it's a damn shame that they don't. It's a prime example of what can happen when two old rivals end up in different conferences, and competitive, institutional & financial needs evolve and make playing regular games extremely difficult. That's why UD & its CAA partners are committed to preserving existing conference rivalries.

As for the rotation and frequency of the CAA's future noncon schedule, that's has yet to be determined by the conference.


However, without the burden of a 14-team conference, UD and UNH could, should they chose, play each other every year if they wanted to. UNH & UD would be then free to make fiscal decisions in NH's and UD's best interest instead of getting fenced into a trip once every six years of questionable value to the schools.

That's just the long way of saying that the two teams would seldom schedule one another (e.g.- LU-UD.) You're going to have to a better job of selling me on the idea that there's some value to risking the cessation of rivalries with UNH, UMass, UMaine, etc. If it means keeping them in the CAA, I'd settle for UD playing them twice every four, six or eight years to not playing them at all.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lacking a meaningful response in your previous post, I'll ask again what the objection is to a large conference, and how it impacts other schools, and the division. All I find for reasons are "It's too big", and references like "monstrosity", and "behemoth". So what are these commissioners and ADs saying is wrong with the big conferences?

If it's a question of asthetics, that's fine. I would prefer the conference be smaller myself, but I fail to see how its size impacts anyone other than its own members.

Fully expecting the CAA police to descend down upon me any second, a large or small CAA conference affects others due to playoff considerations - autobids, size of the bracket, number of at-large teams.

Let's put it this way. Let's say the Patriot League all of a sudden jettisoned the AI, mandated their league to go to 63 scholarships, and leaked to the Morning Call that their mission was to expand to 12 members in the next five years. Of course CAA folks would care - because CAA teams would be among the targets. Because more at-large bids might be taken up by this other league. Of course the actions of one league affect others, especially in the East.

(Of course, the self-styled CAA fan thread police have somehow declared any talk of playoffs, which affects all FCS teams, to somehow be off limits.)

In terms of the commissioner, let's trot out thread one:


Colonial Athletic Association athletic directors will convene in Washington next week and discuss the league's coming football expansion.

In general, the agenda is this question: Can a 14-team football conference work?

Old Dominion begins playing CAA football in 2011. Georgia State is scheduled for a 2012 CAA football arrival. The Colonial already has 12 football members, including the University of Richmond, William and Mary and James Madison. Starting Wednesday, CAA directors of athletics and Tom Yeager, the commissioner of the league since its creation in 1985, will explore options.

Yeager yesterday said among those options are 1) one league with a pair of seven-team divisions, and 2) a split into two leagues, based on geography. The CAA also includes Delaware, Villanova, Towson, Hofstra, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Northeastern and Rhode Island.

If the choice is a 14-team league with a pair of seven-team divisions, Yeager believes an eight-game CAA obligation would continue. Yeager hopes a consensus is reached next week, allowing the league to go forward with scheduling for 2011 and beyond. The CAA has a strong interest in reducing travel costs, if possible, while maintaining traditional conference rivalries.

To recap: The commissioner himself is not sure a 14 team conference will work. He's opening it up to discussion with the other ADs. And the possibility of splitting into two leagues is on the table. If that's not a guy in a position of power saying "what is wrong with a big conference", I don't know what is.

Perhaps, to placate the folks on this thread, Barack Obama will have to mention something before they believe it?

http://www.barack-obama.tv/wp-content/themes/Andreas04/images/barack_obama%20dem%20convention.jpg

Yes, henfan, the CAA is too big. I think it ought to be split into two conferences... After all, we're not a blue America, or a red America, we're the United States of America...

[Jackman]

.. All of whom have championship games. The CAA would be the biggest football conference in Division I without a conference championship game.
Conference championship games don't matter when you have playoffs. The two teams in the CAA championship game are going to be in the playoffs regardless. You could end up with a situation where they play once in the regular season, again in the championship, and a third time in the playoffs. It's stupid. The only reason the FBS conferences have them is that they're money-makers. Maybe not in the ACC's case, but that wasn't the plan. If they couldn't make money, they wouldn't play them, they'd use a tiebreaker formula. And it would not be a money-maker for the CAA, unless it involved Delaware and was played at Delaware. The rest of us don't have the high attendance and high ticket prices of Delaware. God help us if the championship is Towson at Northeastern.


All the quoted rivalries (JMU/UD, UR/JMU, UR/W&M, UNH/UMass, UD/Villanova, and maybe another that is escaping me) would not be broken up with a conference split, assuming Villanova is in the CAA and not the "new Yankee".
UMass-Delaware. Yeah, I don't care, my Playstation and EA Sports say it's a rivalry, and I think we can all agree they're the final authority on this, even if they still think it's the A10 conference. And yeah, they don't play every year anymore, but 2 out of every 4 years is better than zero.

And really, if you think about it, UMass-Delaware is the lynch-pin holding this 14 member conference together. People like to post that America East Football Conference idea with all the New England and SUNY schools. Put Delaware in that conference, and UMass will immediately join it and we'll have a CAA split. I respect the other CAA South programs, but it's really all about Delaware (and maybe to a lesser extent Villanova), the others may as well be in the SoCon or Patriot. But take Delaware out of that new AE conference (they'd never even think about it), and there is no chance UMass will join it, which means there is no chance UNH will join it, which means there is no chance Maine will join it, which means there is no chance that conference will form, which means there can be no split. And that's how UMass-UDel is the most important rivalry in this entire discussion.

And I know what the next comment is going to be: "In a 14 member conference with an 8 game conference schedule, UMass will see Delaware at most once every 4 years, and may go as many as 12 years between games." True, and we're not happy about it, but we're still not joining that AE conference. Why would we? That conference wasn't good enough for Hofstra and Towson, but UMass is going to move in, even as an affiliate?

The only way UMass would even consider leaving the CAA voluntarily is if the new conference is an A10 conference, and then we'd need to have a long discussion about how deeply screwed up the A10 is. Maybe we should just invite Delaware to join in all-sports. That would settle it. Come on, Blue Hens, we've got all the Philadelphia-area opponents you can stand.

[GannonFan]

Fully expecting the CAA police to descend down upon me any second, a large or small CAA conference affects others due to playoff considerations - autobids, size of the bracket, number of at-large teams.

Let's put it this way. Let's say the Patriot League all of a sudden jettisoned the AI, mandated their league to go to 63 scholarships, and leaked to the Morning Call that their mission was to expand to 12 members in the next five years. Of course CAA folks would care - because CAA teams would be among the targets. Because more at-large bids might be taken up by this other league. Of course the actions of one league affect others, especially in the East.

(Of course, the self-styled CAA fan thread police have somehow declared any talk of playoffs, which affects all FCS teams, to somehow be off limits.)

First of all, CAA fans didn't declare talk of the playoffs off limits - I think that was SE making the declaration that the issues that the rest of FCS have with the CAA are much more than the playoffs. He won't tell us what those issues are, but they're out there (very X-Files like). For what it's worth, I think it is all about the playoffs, although how having 4-5 teams from a large CAA versus 4-5 teams from a split CAA makes any difference is beyond me.

As for the CAA's impact on the PL, right now the size of the CAA has nothing to do with it. The PL, by their own decisions long before the CAA grew in size, decided to ditch scholarships, establish their AI system, and to schedule Ivy League schools as often as possible. None of those things had anything to do with the CAA nor the size of the CAA, especially since all of those things happened at least a decade before the CAA even existed.

Of course, if the PL wanted to change tact and no longer differentiate themselves from the CAA, then yes, the discussion would be different, at least between the CAA and the PL (how the CAA versus the rest of FCS factored into this is again, a mystery). But that's not happening anytime soon so why don't we deal with that when it happens?




To recap: The commissioner himself is not sure a 14 team conference will work. He's opening it up to discussion with the other ADs. And the possibility of splitting into two leagues is on the table. If that's not a guy in a position of power saying "what is wrong with a big conference", I don't know what is.



Of course, the commissioner also says in that statement that keeping a 14 team conference is a possibility as well. That certainly sounds like a guy saying "everything could be fine" as well.

[mainejeff]

Villanova has been part of the Southern Division for years, and is more tied to the southern schools than it is to the northern ones. W&M, UR and JMU may be lesser rivals than UD, but they are still meaningful. With ODU coming in, Villanova gets six annual games within driving distance, and all of those will bring good crowds to their place. "Southern" is a bit of a misnomer for the division. It's "mid-atlantic", and with Nova, UD, TU, JMU, UR, W&M and ODU the longest road trip is 270 miles.

Georgia State will be flying to all their conference games anyway, and I expect them to get slotted with the northern division.

Virginia is NOT "Mid-Atlantic".

NO WAY that Georgia State joins the Northern Division.

[GannonFan]

The only way UMass would even consider leaving the CAA voluntarily is if the new conference is an A10 conference, and then we'd need to have a long discussion about how deeply screwed up the A10 is. Maybe we should just invite Delaware to join in all-sports. That would settle it. Come on, Blue Hens, we've got all the Philadelphia-area opponents you can stand.

UD turned down the A10 for all sports years ago. I don't think they liked the academic concessions by some schools when it pertained to basketball and the CAA was and is a stronger all sports conference (really for everything but men's basketball).

But I certainly appreciate the warm sentiments for the UMass/UD rivalry (always enjoy the halftime shows when the two meet) - I mean, Saint was just saying a few pages ago how Delaware is no longer relevant and is in decline. Should probably point him to the Pat Devlin thread. xreadx

[mainejeff]

I forgot about Fordham, my bad. UR already has ties to the A10 and none to the CAA. I wouldn't call the New A10 inferior th the CAA, the only power house will be William $ Mary and James Madison. Delaware & Hofstra are on the downslide Towson is so-so, Northeastern is well Northestern. And it will be YEARS before Georgia State and Old Dominion show any signs of life.

Agreed......although I wouldn't say that Delaware is on the downslide, but W&M will be once Laycock retires.

[mainejeff]

The table in question relates only to the potential realignment for football. That's the party Yeager is hosting, and that's the table that will swing the weight. Hofstra and Northeastern may not be thrilled at the prospect of Ga. St. joining the Northern Division, but the southern schools will have them outnumbered.

xconfusedx xconfusedx xconfusedx

[henfan]

Virginia is NOT "Mid-Atlantic".

NO WAY that Georgia State joins the Northern Division.

I wouldn't say "no way" yet, but it would sure seem to be counter to the cost-saving dynamic the schools are working towards, wouldn't it?

On the surface this appears to be a really bad idea on so many levels. I'd be interested to hear the arguments in favor, if it comes to pass.xsmhx

[mainejeff]

Conference championship games don't matter when you have playoffs. The two teams in the CAA championship game are going to be in the playoffs regardless. You could end up with a situation where they play once in the regular season, again in the championship, and a third time in the playoffs. It's stupid. The only reason the FBS conferences have them is that they're money-makers. Maybe not in the ACC's case, but that wasn't the plan. If they couldn't make money, they wouldn't play them, they'd use a tiebreaker formula. And it would not be a money-maker for the CAA, unless it involved Delaware and was played at Delaware. The rest of us don't have the high attendance and high ticket prices of Delaware. God help us if the championship is Towson at Northeastern.


UMass-Delaware. Yeah, I don't care, my Playstation and EA Sports say it's a rivalry, and I think we can all agree they're the final authority on this, even if they still think it's the A10 conference. And yeah, they don't play every year anymore, but 2 out of every 4 years is better than zero.

And really, if you think about it, UMass-Delaware is the lynch-pin holding this 14 member conference together. People like to post that America East Football Conference idea with all the New England and SUNY schools. Put Delaware in that conference, and UMass will immediately join it and we'll have a CAA split. I respect the other CAA South programs, but it's really all about Delaware (and maybe to a lesser extent Villanova), the others may as well be in the SoCon or Patriot. But take Delaware out of that new AE conference (they'd never even think about it), and there is no chance UMass will join it, which means there is no chance UNH will join it, which means there is no chance Maine will join it, which means there is no chance that conference will form, which means there can be no split. And that's how UMass-UDel is the most important rivalry in this entire discussion.

And I know what the next comment is going to be: "In a 14 member conference with an 8 game conference schedule, UMass will see Delaware at most once every 4 years, and may go as many as 12 years between games." True, and we're not happy about it, but we're still not joining that AE conference. Why would we? That conference wasn't good enough for Hofstra and Towson, but UMass is going to move in, even as an affiliate?

The only way UMass would even consider leaving the CAA voluntarily is if the new conference is an A10 conference, and then we'd need to have a long discussion about how deeply screwed up the A10 is. Maybe we should just invite Delaware to join in all-sports. That would settle it. Come on, Blue Hens, we've got all the Philadelphia-area opponents you can stand.

Nice post. Good understanding of something the Virginia school fans don't seem to grasp......especially the Delaware-UMass-UNH-Maine conga line. And I agree......Delaware IS the key to it all (as much as I hate to admit it).

[GannonFan]

If you all don't see why other conferences have a beef you're wearing blinders. This is the problem/argument. No conference, no matter the records, should have 31% of the teams in the playoffs. It's skewed. It's...it's BCS territory.

However, this is off topic of this thread so I'll leave the CAA 14 team mess to someone else to figure out.

I think you're misunderstanding - all opinions are welcome. But when CAA people ask why non-CAA people care about the size of the CAA, the issue I can't figure out is why people aren't happy with CAA getting 4-5 bids every year but they would be perfectly happy with the CAA split into 2 conferences and 4-5 teams making the playoffs every year from those 2 conferences. xconfusedx

[Jackman]

NO WAY that Georgia State joins the Northern Division.
I think that's the most likely outcome, mainejeff. Think about it, if you put both Old Dominion and Georgia State in the South, you're giving the South division two freebies against "expansion teams" (for lack of a better term). That puts the North at a disadvantage when it comes to conference records. Okay, so we still have URI and NU, but technically those are established programs with glorious histories. Sort of.

I don't think it will be a long term divisional alignment though. GSU will be put in the North for the first few years and there will be an agreement to discuss the matter again after the new programs have had the opportunity to catch up. Who knows if Northeastern will still be around by then, they might disband/go non-scholly and then maybe the UDel/Nova combo could be moved North where they belong.

[GannonFan]

Nice post. Good understanding of something the Virginia school fans don't seem to grasp......especially the Delaware-UMass-UNH-Maine conga line. And I agree......Delaware IS the key to it all (as much as I hate to admit it).

Man, how hard was that to type??? xlolx :p xlolx :p xlolx :p xlolx :p xlolx

But yes, UD has history, and good history, with basically every team in the conference. UD certainly has no problem with a 14 team conference. xthumbsupx

[mainejeff]

I think that's the most likely outcome, mainejeff. Think about it, if you put both Old Dominion and Georgia State in the South, you're giving the South division two freebies against "expansion teams" (for lack of a better term). That puts the North at a disadvantage when it comes to conference records. Okay, so we still have URI and NU, but technically those are established programs with glorious histories. Sort of.

I don't think it will be a long term divisional alignment though. GSU will be put in the North for the first few years and there will be an agreement to discuss the matter again after the new programs have had the opportunity to catch up. Who knows if Northeastern will still be around by then, they might disband/go non-scholly and then maybe the UDel/Nova combo could be moved North where they belong.

Northeastern
URI
Towson

ODU
Georgia State
W&M/Villanova/Richmond

I think that is fair.

[GannonFan]

I think that's the most likely outcome, mainejeff. Think about it, if you put both Old Dominion and Georgia State in the South, you're giving the South division two freebies against "expansion teams" (for lack of a better term). That puts the North at a disadvantage when it comes to conference records. Okay, so we still have URI and NU, but technically those are established programs with glorious histories. Sort of.

I don't think it will be a long term divisional alignment though. GSU will be put in the North for the first few years and there will be an agreement to discuss the matter again after the new programs have had the opportunity to catch up. Who knows if Northeastern will still be around by then, they might disband/go non-scholly and then maybe the UDel/Nova combo could be moved North where they belong.

Don't sleep on ODU - they have great facilities, a pretty big fanbase, and they compete well in every sport they have. They'll certainly have a few stumbling blocks, but there are plenty examples of schools with less athletic support (Coastal, Wofford) who started up programs and were pretty good in a short period of time. By 2014, I'd be very, very wary of ODU. I'm less sold on GSU, but there's no shortage of GSU fans who will tell you otherwise.

I sort of agree with the UD/nova combo going to the North. They can't be split up unless there is a concession to allow them to play every year, and UD, of all the schools in the South, has the most history and ties with the schools in the North. Even Richmond, who came in with UD in '86, doesn't have as many ties, plus they are hours to the South compared to UD. I wouldn't be shocked by UD/nova being in the North eventually, should the league stay at 14.

[Jackman]

Yeah, I think we have maybe 4 years before ODU and GSU are legit. I think it will be GSU to the North with an agreement to re-visit the alignment question in 2016.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think you're misunderstanding - all opinions are welcome. But when CAA people ask why non-CAA people care about the size of the CAA, the issue I can't figure out is why people aren't happy with CAA getting 4-5 bids every year but they would be perfectly happy with the CAA split into 2 conferences and 4-5 teams making the playoffs every year from those 2 conferences. xconfusedx

Because one would be an autobid. That means two more at-larges for everybody: one since the New Yankee champion would no longer take a valuable at-large bid, and the other since 50% of the field has to be at-larges.

[mainejeff]

Don't sleep on ODU - they have great facilities, a pretty big fanbase, and they compete well in every sport they have. They'll certainly have a few stumbling blocks, but there are plenty examples of schools with less athletic support (Coastal, Wofford) who started up programs and were pretty good in a short period of time. By 2014, I'd be very, very wary of ODU. I'm less sold on GSU, but there's no shortage of GSU fans who will tell you otherwise.

I sort of agree with the UD/nova combo going to the North. They can't be split up unless there is a concession to allow them to play every year, and UD, of all the schools in the South, has the most history and ties with the schools in the North. Even Richmond, who came in with UD in '86, doesn't have as many ties, plus they are hours to the South compared to UD. I wouldn't be shocked by UD/nova being in the North eventually, should the league stay at 14.

I think that sending Northeastern to the South is more logical than sending Georgia State to the North. The Southern teams would get a trip to Boston every other year and maintain a presence for their alumni. Northeastern has no "great" rivalries with anyone in the North. Would allow for putting Delaware and Villanova in the North and make for less shuffling once Northeastern drops football.

[mainejeff]

Yeah, I think we have maybe 4 years before ODU and GSU are legit. I think it will be GSU to the North with an agreement to re-visit the alignment question in 2016.

I totally disagree.

Hard economic times will squash this talk (and it was on shaky ground to begin with).

[Jackman]

Northeastern
URI
Towson

ODU
Georgia State
W&M/Villanova/Richmond

I think that is fair.
I don't know, mj, I'm warming to the idea of playing GState. It's a chance to play in a NFL stadium and open a new recruiting pipeline down south. We already recruit the mid-Atlantic. And really one plane trip every two years is a drop in the bucket for the football budget, especially to a major hub like Atlanta. US Air loves sending me to Atlanta, even if it's in the opposite direction of where I'm going. Anyway, at this time I think I'd rather have GState than Towson, at least during the first few years. We're all getting on a plane either way, except maybe Hofstra. I bet there isn't a significant difference in the cost of a plane ticket to Atlanta vs. Baltimore.

Edit: Eh, I take that last part back. From Bradley a commercial ticket to Atlanta is about $300, to Baltimore a little under $200. Still not bad.

[mainejeff]

I don't know, mj, I'm warming to the idea of playing GState. It's a chance to play in a NFL stadium and open a new recruiting pipeline down south. We already recruit the mid-Atlantic. And really one plane trip every two years is a drop in the bucket for the football budget, especially to a major hub like Atlanta. US Air loves sending me to Atlanta, even if it's in the opposite direction of where I'm going. Anyway, at this time I think I'd rather have GState than Towson, at least during the first few years. We're all getting on a plane either way, except maybe Hofstra. I bet there isn't a significant difference in the cost of a plane ticket to Atlanta vs. Baltimore.

Maybe UMass should play in the Southern Division.

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

Because one would be an autobid. That means two more at-larges for everybody: one since the New Yankee champion would no longer take a valuable at-large bid, and the other since 50% of the field has to be at-larges.


You can not grant another autobid without taking away an at-large.
Giving the CAA North/Yankee an autobid would mean they would take a playoff spot EVERY YEAR, earned or not. Your point makes no sense.

[Tribe4SF]

Because one would be an autobid. That means two more at-larges for everybody: one since the New Yankee champion would no longer take a valuable at-large bid, and the other since 50% of the field has to be at-larges.

So you're saying the field would be expanded to account for the additional auto, and required additional at-large? Is that it? "Two more at-larges for everybody" sounds good to me. Maybe we can get 5 or 6 instead of 4 or 5!

Of course the current auto-bids can always be reviewed. The NCAA might look at the conferences and decide to take someone's away. If that were to happen some on here would surely claim it was the CAA's fault, rather than the fault of a conference that chose not to stay competitive enough to merit an auto bid.

Syntax Error appears to favor a limit on how many playoff teams can come from one conference. That of course will mean the committee's job will no longer be to select the best available teams to fill the at-large bids. Let's follow the lead of American education and make sure everyone feels like a winner, whether they've earned it, or not.

[Husky Alum]

Let's follow the lead of American education and make sure everyone feels like a winner, whether they've earned it, or not.

So you're saying that we didn't really lose in the 'Burg this year?

Because we showed up and tried hard we're going to get credit for a win.

Woo Hoo

Me likey, me likey.

Heard at the NU hockey game today from several folks that the "two conferences plus a scheduling agreement" is very agreeable to the schools currently in Hockey East. Apparently the lack of an autobid isn't as big of a deal as many think - thought being the winner of the "New Yankee" would make the playoffs most years, regardless.

[Tribe4SF]

So you're saying that we didn't really lose in the 'Burg this year?

Because we showed up and tried hard we're going to get credit for a win.

Woo Hoo

Me likey, me likey.



That's correct!xthumbsupx

Syntax will have your trophy at the banquet.

[mainejeff]

Heard at the NU hockey game today from several folks that the "two conferences plus a scheduling agreement" is very agreeable to the schools currently in Hockey East. Apparently the lack of an autobid isn't as big of a deal as many think - thought being the winner of the "New Yankee" would make the playoffs most years, regardless.

For those not familiar with Hockey East.......that would be Northeastern, UMass, UNH and Maine.

[Syntax Error]

That's correct! Syntax will have your trophy at the banquet.
Syntax Error appears to favor a limit on how many playoff teams can come from one conference...That, of course is not true. Not sure why you are fixated on me T4SF, my friend, with the misinformation. xcoffeex