CAA athletic directors to study 14-team puzzle

[Tribe4SF]

Then would be a good case for conference playoff bid limits by those that suggest it.

My mistake. Clearly you refer to others.:o

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So you're saying the field would be expanded to account for the additional auto, and required additional at-large? Is that it? "Two more at-larges for everybody" sounds good to me. Maybe we can get 5 or 6 instead of 4 or 5!

Of course the current auto-bids can always be reviewed. The NCAA might look at the conferences and decide to take someone's away. If that were to happen some on here would surely claim it was the CAA's fault, rather than the fault of a conference that chose not to stay competitive enough to merit an auto bid.

I think it's abundantly clear that nobody will be losing their autobid. The playoff subcommittee turned the world upside down in order to accomodate the NEC (and Big South, when they're eligible), and they're not going to strip an autobid to keep it at 20 teams. It's fiendishly simple to expand it to 22 or 24 that maintain it at 20.


Syntax Error appears to favor a limit on how many playoff teams can come from one conference. That of course will mean the committee's job will no longer be to select the best available teams to fill the at-large bids. Let's follow the lead of American education and make sure everyone feels like a winner, whether they've earned it, or not.

This is sounding like McCain - when you don't have a counterargument, go personal. Furthermore, the attack doesn't make more sense: first, you applaud the fact that the CAA/New Yankee would get another 7-4 team in the mix, then you say that "everyone must feel good". I'll assume you were perfectly happy with Maine making the playoffs this year, then - after all, it's not about making the Tribe happy, now, is it?

SE never mentions a limit of playoff teams from one conference. Rather, he says break apart into two more regional conferences - what was listed as one of the considerations by the Richmond Times-Dispatch. Since one conference would already have an autobid and the other would have competed together for five years, they'd be eligible for an autobid right away - and I'd be all for them having an autobid.

The reason I'm for this is because the way it is right now the playoff subcommittee seems to be treating the CAA as de facto two conferences with one autobid. The other divisional "champion" gets rewarded with an at-large bid - and takes an at-large away from, say, Cal Poly, Liberty or Elon. It even seems to be trickling down to at-large bids - for example, why take Maine out of the North instead of W&M out of the South, unless you're treating them as different conferences?

(But wait... Any talk about how this might affect the playoffs is off limits... this is an internal CAA matter... xrolleyesx )

[Syntax Error]

My mistake. Clearly you refer to others.:oSomebody posted that, maybe mplsbison. It has always been my opinion to have the best teams available in the playoffs. I guess I agree with the NCAA to give all conference champs [cough] an AQ, but the rest should be the strongest teams. I think the CAA issue is really about too many teams under one roof. Undue influence and things like that are definitely on people's minds.

[Tribe4SF]

I think it's abundantly clear that nobody will be losing their autobid. The playoff subcommittee turned the world upside down in order to accomodate the NEC (and Big South, when they're eligible), and they're not going to strip an autobid to keep it at 20 teams. It's fiendishly simple to expand it to 22 or 24 that maintain it at 20.



This is sounding like McCain - when you don't have a counterargument, go personal. Furthermore, the attack doesn't make more sense: first, you applaud the fact that the CAA/New Yankee would get another 7-4 team in the mix, then you say that "everyone must feel good". I'll assume you were perfectly happy with Maine making the playoffs this year, then - after all, it's not about making the Tribe happy, now, is it?

SE never mentions a limit of playoff teams from one conference. Rather, he says break apart into two more regional conferences - what was listed as one of the considerations by the Richmond Times-Dispatch. Since one conference would already have an autobid and the other would have competed together for five years, they'd be eligible for an autobid right away - and I'd be all for them having an autobid.

The reason I'm for this is because the way it is right now the playoff subcommittee seems to be treating the CAA as de facto two conferences with one autobid. The other divisional "champion" gets rewarded with an at-large bid - and takes an at-large away from, say, Cal Poly, Liberty or Elon. It even seems to be trickling down to at-large bids - for example, why take Maine out of the North instead of W&M out of the South, unless you're treating them as different conferences?

(But wait... Any talk about how this might affect the playoffs is off limits... this is an internal CAA matter... xrolleyesx )

Apologized to SE above. There are those, of course, who want to see such limits.

You didn't hear from me that the playoffs were off-limits for this discussion. My point is that whether the Northern Div. is seen as a defacto separate conference, or becomes one, the playoff impact really isn't there. I don't think the committee has ever awarded an at-large to the "de facto" other champ at the expense of some other team. No matter where UNH was affiliated, with their record, and schedule this year they were going to the playoffs.

The top teams in the two divisions are frequently co-champs, and the autobid comes from tie-breakers. More than once there have been three, or more teams tied. That happens in other conferences as well, and sometimes those co-champs don't even get a bid. Once you're in the at-large pool, the task is to select the best teams available.

The Maine decision, I think, had everything to do with balance between the two divisions. With McCutcheon at the helm, the committee obviously came down to two CAA teams for the last spot. Despite their mandate, the committee let politics enter the process. It made the decision easier, and more palatable. They take enough heat for placing four at-large bids in one conference without giving three to one division. I continue to believe that W&M was the best team available, a position shared by well placed people at most conference members that played both Maine and W&M.

If the committee's mandate remains to select the best available teams to fill the field, the rest of FCS has the same opportunity to earn their way in. Many like to deride a 7-4 team making the playoffs, but that position begins to ignore the strength of schedule priorities which protect the integrity of the field. Choosing Maine was a one-time copout that was difficult to defend. When Bruce Dowd questioned McCutcheon about it he rambled aimlessly, finally issuing his most meaningful quote...."I'm not making any sense here." The best part was that Jack Cosgrove inverted the teams power rankings, and actually offered them up as evidence of justification. There were no replies when this confusion became known.

[Tribe4SF]

Somebody posted that, maybe mplsbison. It has always been my opinion to have the best teams available in the playoffs. I guess I agree with the NCAA to give all conference champs [cough] an AQ, but the rest should be the strongest teams. I think the CAA issue is really about too many teams under one roof. Undue influence and things like that are definitely on people's minds.

Fear of undue influence is a legitimate concern, I guess. I'm not aware of that having actually been the case. Truth be told, when a large conference only gets the same representation as other conferences, they are more likely to be under represented, and could suffer from decisions made out of fear of their size. I'm also not aware of that having been the case. If the CAA splits into two affiliated conferences, would there be additional representation on committee's such as playoff selection? If the split leads to two auto-bids I would assume that will be the case.

[Syntax Error]

Fear of undue influence is a legitimate concern, I guess. I'm not aware of that having actually been the case. Truth be told, when a large conference only gets the same representation as other conferences, they are more likely to be under represented, and could suffer from decisions made out of fear of their size. I'm also not aware of that having been the case. If the CAA splits into two affiliated conferences, would there be additional representation on committee's such as playoff selection? If the split leads to two auto-bids I would assume that will be the case.I am against two affiliated conferences. Two conferences under one roof is not a change. I know that with the PFL and MVFC sharing the same commish, she has said if there is ever a crossover then she will resign the PFL. Currently there isn't with the two, but with a proposed CAA duo there would be.

[Tribe4SF]

I am against two affiliated conferences. Two conferences under one roof is not a change. I know that with the PFL and MVFC sharing the same commish, she has said if there is ever a crossover then she will resign the PFL. Currently there isn't with the two, but with a proposed CAA duo there would be.

We'll have to see how it shakes out, but I'd be surprised if a split conference is not CAA affiliated. Who else is going to run things? If there are full CAA members in each, they will want full affiliation. If it split with all full members together it would have to ignore many priorities of the current members.

My guess is that the division setup remains, and we'll see some external development (or multiple developments) in the coming years which will reduce the size of the conference. For the time being I think we're looking at a power struggle, and I've already shared my view on which members will see their desires prevail.

The crux of the initial decision has to be where to place Georgia State. If they go in the South, either Delaware or Towson would seem to be options for the North. The hardship for those two in terms of travel should outweigh any other consideration. Georgia State will be flying for every conference game regardless of division placement, and their division foes will only have to fly to them every other year. Delaware or Towson in the North would be in the air frequently.

[henfan]

Fear of undue influence is a legitimate concern, I guess. I'm not aware of that having actually been the case. Truth be told, when a large conference only gets the same representation as other conferences, they are more likely to be under represented, and could suffer from decisions made out of fear of their size. I'm also not aware of that having been the case.

Yeah, I'm also wondering how this notion of "undue influence" (for or against) works exactly? How is NCAA or FCS PCS representation impacted by the size of the CAA, for example? Who's being influenced, in what manner and to what degree? "Gluttony", "undue influence", etc.xlolx

Auxesis: a form of hyperbole, in which something is referred to by a term disproportionate to its importance for the very purpose of amplifying that thing's importance or gravity.

http://businessturnaround.blogs.com/business_turnaround/images/fonz_jumping_the_shark.jpg

[henfan]

We'll have to see how it shakes out, but I'd be surprised if a split conference is not CAA affiliated. Who else is going to run things?

Rhetorical question, of course. I've not heard that the CAA would be inviting any other conference to this shindig. Then again, who could imagine any D-I conference working with a competing conference to voluntarily surrender membership, revenue and media share?


If they go in the South, either Delaware or Towson would seem to be options for the North. The hardship for those two in terms of travel should outweigh any other consideration. Georgia State will be flying for every conference game regardless of division placement, and their division foes will only have to fly to them every other year. Delaware or Towson in the North would be in the air frequently.

It wouldn't be too bad for UD, if the VU rivalry was guaranteed annually. VU, HU, UMass & URI are bus trips; UMaine, UNH & NU are flights. It doesn't represent that big a change, really.

Outliers (UMaine & GSU) are always going to have to make more flights regardless. Then again, schools have to fly to them as well.

[Tribe4SF]

Rhetorical question, of course. I've not heard that the CAA would be inviting any other conference to this shindig. Then again, who could imagine any D-I conference working with a competing conference to voluntarily surrender membership, revenue and media share?

xlolx Yeah, imagine that!

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Rhetorical question, of course. I've not heard that the CAA would be inviting any other conference to this shindig. Then again, who could imagine any D-I conference working with a competing conference to voluntarily surrender membership, revenue and media share?

Especially comical to think they would do so with America East or the Atlantic Ten! xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xlolx xlolx


It wouldn't be too bad for UD, if the VU rivalry was guaranteed annually. VU, HU, UMass & URI are bus trips; UMaine, UNH & NU are flights. It doesn't represent that big a change, really.

Outliers (UMaine & GSU) are always going to have to make more flights regardless. Then again, schools have to fly to them as well.

I didn't realize that URI and UMass were bus games for Delaware. I was thinking that flying to either wasn't that big a deal (Southwest from Philly to Providence for URI and to Hartford for UMass). Flying to UNH has the option of a SW non-stop to Manchester or Philly-Boston non stops. The same thing for Northeastern. In other words, not the most expensive trips out there. The big difference would be two trips to Orono ever four years instead of one like today.

[Syntax Error]

... wondering how this notion of "undue influence" (for or against) works exactly?Officially in the xhomerx category now.
xlolx xnodx

[henfan]

I didn't realize that URI and UMass were bus games for Delaware. I was thinking that flying to either wasn't that big a deal (Southwest from Philly to Providence for URI and to Hartford for UMass).

UD has flown to both URI (Providence) & UMass (Hartford) but it's depended on how many other games requiring flights were also on the schedule. Last year it was a bus ride to Amherst. To put it into perspective, from Newark, drives to Rhody & UMass are only about a 1/2 hour difference from a drive to Williamsburg.

IIRC, UD Olympic sport teams frequently used to bus to Hartford & Boston for road games. I can go back & check but I don't recall the FB team busing to Boston for NU, BU or UNH. That's a good question.

[henfan]

Officially in the xhomerx category now.
xlolx xnodx

So the CAA is casting "undue influence" over the NCAA and FCS PSC by bribing them with fruit punch beverages, thus securing greater legislative control over the entire subdivision. Crafty foxes!!

Should have also considered the CAA's exclusive sponsorship deal with Little Debbie Products, which would clearly explain charges of "gluttony". How dare they not share snack cakes with the America East, NEC or Patriot League!xrolleyesx

[mainejeff]

This whole thing isn't that big a deal.......the only real question is which team will they place in the North. Villanova would be the logical geographical and economic choice.......however, since we know that Delaware runs the league.......it would seem that Towson would be next on the list. Georgia State should only be put in the North if the CAA is going to subsidize the airline tickets for all of the North teams that have to fly there (and for Georgia State to fly North 3 times). Everyone would bus to Philly (including Maine) if Villanova were placed in the North.

[Syntax Error]

So...Yep, pure homerism on display. It's all good when you're the stomper, bigger than all the rest, can elbow out others because of sheer size, can offer so much more... yeeeeeeeeesssssss, it's good to be the king. xthumbsupx

[henfan]

This whole thing isn't that big a deal.......the only real question is which team will they place in the North. Everyone would bus to Philly (including Maine) if Villanova were placed in the North.

UMaine would bus to Philly? Have they ever?

Does UMaine bus its Olympic sport teams to LI and UMBC?

[BDKJMU]

Apologized to SE above. There are those, of course, who want to see such limits.

You didn't hear from me that the playoffs were off-limits for this discussion. My point is that whether the Northern Div. is seen as a defacto separate conference, or becomes one, the playoff impact really isn't there. I don't think the committee has ever awarded an at-large to the "de facto" other champ at the expense of some other team. No matter where UNH was affiliated, with their record, and schedule this year they were going to the playoffs.

The top teams in the two divisions are frequently co-champs, and the autobid comes from tie-breakers. More than once there have been three, or more teams tied. That happens in other conferences as well, and sometimes those co-champs don't even get a bid. Once you're in the at-large pool, the task is to select the best teams available.

The Maine decision, I think, had everything to do with balance between the two divisions. With McCutcheon at the helm, the committee obviously came down to two CAA teams for the last spot. Despite their mandate, the committee let politics enter the process. It made the decision easier, and more palatable. They take enough heat for placing four at-large bids in one conference without giving three to one division. I continue to believe that W&M was the best team available, a position shared by well placed people at most conference members that played both Maine and W&M.

If the committee's mandate remains to select the best available teams to fill the field, the rest of FCS has the same opportunity to earn their way in. Many like to deride a 7-4 team making the playoffs, but that position begins to ignore the strength of schedule priorities which protect the integrity of the field. Choosing Maine was a one-time copout that was difficult to defend. When Bruce Dowd questioned McCutcheon about it he rambled aimlessly, finally issuing his most meaningful quote...."I'm not making any sense here." The best part was that Jack Cosgrove inverted the teams power rankings, and actually offered them up as evidence of justification. There were no replies when this confusion became known.

Well, I was one of the few JMU fans at the Maine game. I saw JMU @ Maine 10-10 early in the 4th (granted was raining) before 24-10 final. I saw W&M @ JMU 45-10 early in the 4th before 48-24 final. Maine looked like the better team to me from watching those 2 games.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

This whole thing isn't that big a deal.......the only real question is which team will they place in the North. Villanova would be the logical geographical and economic choice.......however, since we know that Delaware runs the league.......it would seem that Towson would be next on the list. Georgia State should only be put in the North if the CAA is going to subsidize the airline tickets for all of the North teams that have to fly there (and for Georgia State to fly North 3 times). Everyone would bus to Philly (including Maine) if Villanova were placed in the North.


UMaine would bus to Philly? Have they ever?

Does UMaine bus its Olympic sport teams to LI and UMBC?

FWIW, UNH FB does NOT bus to Philly for Villanova, I know that for a fact. I know UNH buses to Hofstra for FB as well as to Stony Brook for all Olympic sports. UNH MBB flies to UMBC, but I just don't know about the other sports.

For UNH FB, games at Villanova and Delaware means a flight on Southwest out of Manchester into Philly. Games at Towson mean a flight on Southwest into BWI. Frankly, no real difference in any of those trips.

[BDKJMU]

This whole thing isn't that big a deal.......the only real question is which team will they place in the North. Villanova would be the logical geographical and economic choice.......however, since we know that Delaware runs the league.......it would seem that Towson would be next on the list. Georgia State should only be put in the North if the CAA is going to subsidize the airline tickets for all of the North teams that have to fly there (and for Georgia State to fly North 3 times). Everyone would bus to Philly (including Maine) if Villanova were placed in the North.

I live about 14 miles from Nova's stadium, and I drove to the JMU @ Maine game Sat night game (family in CT that Fri night). You telling me Maine busses to Nova and Nova busses to Maine xconfusedx

According to Mapquest Villanova, PA to Orono, ME thats 556 miles, 9:36 hrs, which I imagine would take about that by bus. Maybe 8.5 by car

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Officially in the xhomerx category now.
xlolx xnodx

I'm extremely disappointed in you SE. I know that you've met Henfan personally and have spent time with him at games. Yes, he's extremely loyal to his alma mater, but he's as far from being a "homer" as you can get. And you know that! xsmhx xsmhx

And you know what, Tribe4SF, GannonFan, 89Hen, and Husky Alum are some of the most objective, reasonable posters from the CAA on this forum. I'd like to think I am as well. Passionate for our alma maters, but very grounded in reality.

[Syntax Error]

I'm extremely disappointed in you SE. I know that you've met Henfan personally and have spent time with him at games. Yes, he's extremely loyal to his alma mater, but he's as far from being a "homer" as you can get. And you know that! xsmhx xsmhx

And you know what, Tribe4SF, GannonFan, 89Hen, and Husky Alum are some of the most objective, reasonable posters from the CAA on this forum. I'd like to think I am as well. Passionate for our alma maters, but very grounded in reality.Not as sorry as I am friend. Nearly everyone you mentioned completely feigns ignorance of why others might consider a 14 (and growing) team CAA a problem, dismissing everything - often with a look down their nose. What else besides homerism could be the reason (if you say the others are all wrong... well)?

[mainejeff]

UMaine would bus to Philly? Have they ever?

Does UMaine bus its Olympic sport teams to LI and UMBC?

I know that they bus to LI.......not sure about Baltimore.

[mainejeff]

Well, I was one of the few JMU fans at the Maine game. I saw JMU @ Maine 10-10 early in the 4th (granted was raining) before 24-10 final. I saw W&M @ JMU 45-10 early in the 4th before 48-24 final. Maine looked like the better team to me from watching those 2 games.

Maine looked REAL good until that on-sides kick in the 4th Q......;) xmadx xmadx xmadx

[mainejeff]

For UNH FB, games at Villanova and Delaware means a flight on Southwest out of Manchester into Philly. Games at Towson mean a flight on Southwest into BWI. Frankly, no real difference in any of those trips.

How about a flight to Atlanta.......any difference there?

[mainejeff]

I live about 14 miles from Nova's stadium, and I drove to the JMU @ Maine game Sat night game (family in CT that Fri night). You telling me Maine busses to Nova and Nova busses to Maine xconfusedx

According to Mapquest Villanova, PA to Orono, ME thats 556 miles, 9:36 hrs, which I imagine would take about that by bus. Maybe 8.5 by car

Maybe Maine does fly to Philly......not sure. I think that there is some time element that determines when Maine flies. I almost want to say anything that takes over 8 hours to drive. I know that they fly charter out of Bangor (10 minutes from campus) when they fly.

[mainejeff]

And you know what, Tribe4SF, GannonFan, 89Hen, and Husky Alum are some of the most objective, reasonable posters from the CAA on this forum. I'd like to think I am as well. Passionate for our alma maters, but very grounded in reality.

xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Tribe4SF]

Not as sorry as I am friend. Nearly everyone you mentioned completely feigns ignorance of why others might consider a 14 (and growing) team CAA a problem, dismissing everything - often with a look down their nose. What else besides homerism could be the reason (if you say the others are all wrong... well)?

It has been difficult to glean the concerns from this thread. They are vague, and allude to some type of unfairness occurring, but how exactly that will occur is only imagined. Characterizing the reactions as homerism is, in my mind, off base. The case for these concerns has largely been vocalized by yourself and LFN. He gives the most concrete explanation with his view that the playoff chances of at-large, non-CAA teams will be enhanced by a conference split. I suppose that could be the case, but I'm hardly convinced that it would be. The criteria for choosing at-large bids is not likely to change, and any other FCS school is still going to have to go up against CAA teams, whether the conference is split or not. The bottom line is that at-large bids are given to individual teams based on merit, and should not have anything to do with conference affiliation. The GPI (with a very few notable exceptions) has confirmed that method for years now.

[Tribe4SF]

Well, I was one of the few JMU fans at the Maine game. I saw JMU @ Maine 10-10 early in the 4th (granted was raining) before 24-10 final. I saw W&M @ JMU 45-10 early in the 4th before 48-24 final. Maine looked like the better team to me from watching those 2 games.

And I'm sure there are others who see it the same way. For another comparison, ask the UNH or Richmond coaching staffs what they thought.

[mainejeff]

And I'm sure there are others who see it the same way. For another comparison, ask the UNH or Richmond coaching staffs what they thought.

I can tell you what the Richmond staff thought about Maine........the same that the JMU staff probably thought about W&M........

xcoffeex

[Syntax Error]

It has been difficult to glean the concerns from this thread. They are vague...What exactly is vague about the reasons given? A 14 team conference lands in the midst of 10-or less team conferences? Gee, no one noticed or cares? No, people care and notice. They noticed when the Walmart came to town and all the smaller shops got priced out. They noticed when "Big Corp." came to town and all the smaller service providers shut down. They noticed when Walmart and Big Corp. ... Follow me? Nothing nefarious, just people are noticing and the CAA knows it.

[mainejeff]

What exactly is vague about the reasons given? A 14 team conference lands in the midst of 10-or less team conferences? Gee, no one noticed or cares? No, people care and notice. They noticed when the Walmart came to town and all the smaller shops got priced out. They noticed when "Big Corp." came to town and all the smaller service providers shut down. They noticed when Walmart and Big Corp. ... Follow me? Nothing nefarious, just people are noticing and the CAA knows it.

I guess that it's more about a form of "football welfare" (ie. spreading the wealth) than about choosing the best teams in the FCS to make the playoffs??? xrolleyesx

[Syntax Error]

I guess that it's more about a form of "football welfare" (ie. spreading the wealth) than about choosing the best teams in the FCS to make the playoffs??? xrolleyesxSeeing as how you have not been keeping up, this is not about the playoffs. xrolleyesx

[mainejeff]

Seeing as how you have not been keeping up, this is not about the playoffs. xrolleyesx

I guess that you would just prefer the CAA to jettison Maine and UNH, or URI and UMass, or others so that their programs whither and die? xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

How about a flight to Atlanta.......any difference there?

Went on Delta's web site and picked a weekend in Sept. and a non-stop flight from Boston to Atlanta. With all the fees it was $330. So yes, that's more than a typical SW flight from Manchester to Philly. But still not as expensive as flying some place without a non stop flight. Just for comparison using Travelocity it would be $521 per person going into Waterloo for a game vs. UNI. Also using Travelocity it is $286 for a non stop flight from Boston to Pittsburg (Duquesne, a possible addition if we didn't have the CAA or for a game with Youngstown State).

I have no idea what charters cost. UNH only charters in the playoffs when it is on the NCAA's dime.

I don't see Atlanta as that significant a hardship. It's better than a lot of options. We'd probably start to have a couple trips like that anyway just to get OOC games we'd want if we weren't in the CAA.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I guess that you would just prefer the CAA to jettison Maine and UNH, or URI and UMass, or others so that their programs whither and die? xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

No kidding! UMass would survive, but what would UNH, Maine and URI have for options?

The Ivy -- when hell freezes over
The Patriot -- almost as little chance as getting in the Ivy
The MEAC or Big South -- still full scholarship, but the travel expenses would kill them. That leads to "wither and die" IMHO.
The NEC -- as long as 40 scholarship max, then also would be in the "whither and die" category (in Maine and UNH's point of view, I won't speak for URI).
All the other FCS leagues -- travel is too expensive, there would be no withering, they'd just die. Quickly.

How is that good for FCS?

The only possibility is a NEC that offers whatever the scholarship limit is needed to play FBS schools as a counter. (But that would really be putting the screws to their existing all sports members who play football.) Of course, the A-10 or AE leaders could still jump in to save the day. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[mainejeff]

Went on Delta's web site and picked a weekend in Sept. and a non-stop flight from Boston to Atlanta. With all the fees it was $330. So yes, that's more than a typical SW flight from Manchester to Philly. But still not as expensive as flying some place without a non stop flight. Just for comparison using Travelocity it would be $521 per person going into Waterloo for a game vs. UNI. Also using Travelocity it is $286 for a non stop flight from Boston to Pittsburg (Duquesne, a possible addition if we didn't have the CAA or for a game with Youngstown State).

I have no idea what charters cost. UNH only charters in the playoffs when it is on the NCAA's dime.

I don't see Atlanta as that significant a hardship. It's better than a lot of options. We'd probably start to have a couple trips like that anyway just to get OOC games we'd want if we weren't in the CAA.

But we ARE in the CAA! So enough with the OOC game schedule whining.

Why should the Southern members of the CAA dictate to the Northern members who should be in the North??? Georgia State in the North makes NO SENSE and the Northern teams shouldn't have to budge an inch on this........how stupid is it when you have 4 TEAMS IN VIRGINA and they are talking about putting Georgia State in a division with all New England teams plus Hofstra???? xrolleyesx

You don't seem to mind adding a flight to Atlanta for the UNH football team to the athletic budget every other year.......personally, I don't want to add that expense to the UMaine budget every other year when there are better (more logical) and cheaper options.

[Wmbgskip]

The whole point of this thread seems to be to give voice to sky-is-falling theories about how the CAA with 14 will bring a serviceable product to the masses at lower prices and force smaller conferences like the PL to go out of business.

Do you honestly think that the CAA schools are that good? Seriously? Since expanding to 12 teams, the CAA has two national titles, App State has three. The playoffs are expanding to 20 teams, and can be shot up to 32 without expanding the length of the season if you're worried about schools not getting a favorable shot at a playoff spot.

In regards to the comment that the CAA posters are ignoring how this will negatively impact the rest of the subdivision, I believe it was Washington who said something to the effect of "Never trust any group to do more than its self-interests require." If you think 14 (or 12, or 10, or whatever) is too large of a conference for the good of the other schools in the FCS, then lobby your local AD to introduce legislation to the NCAA to set a conference maximum.

[mainejeff]

No kidding! UMass would survive, but what would UNH, Maine and URI have for options?

The Ivy -- when hell freezes over
The Patriot -- almost as little chance as getting in the Ivy
The MEAC or Big South -- still full scholarship, but the travel expenses would kill them. That leads to "wither and die" IMHO.
The NEC -- as long as 40 scholarship max, then also would be in the "whither and die" category (in Maine and UNH's point of view, I won't speak for URI).
All the other FCS leagues -- travel is too expensive, there would be no withering, they'd just die. Quickly.

How is that good for FCS?

The only possibility is a NEC that offers whatever the scholarship limit is needed to play FBS schools as a counter. (But that would really be putting the screws to their existing all sports members who play football.) Of course, the A-10 or AE leaders could still jump in to save the day. xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

They only get upset when teams like LaSalle and Iona drop their programs.........xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[mainejeff]

Are there any full scholarship conferences willing to accept new members from New England???.........any of the complainers/whiners have the answer to that one?............xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

It has been difficult to glean the concerns from this thread. They are vague, and allude to some type of unfairness occurring, but how exactly that will occur is only imagined. Characterizing the reactions as homerism is, in my mind, off base. The case for these concerns has largely been vocalized by yourself and LFN. He gives the most concrete explanation with his view that the playoff chances of at-large, non-CAA teams will be enhanced by a conference split. I suppose that could be the case, but I'm hardly convinced that it would be. The criteria for choosing at-large bids is not likely to change, and any other FCS school is still going to have to go up against CAA teams, whether the conference is split or not. The bottom line is that at-large bids are given to individual teams based on merit, and should not have anything to do with conference affiliation. The GPI (with a very few notable exceptions) has confirmed that method for years now.

I agree with you.

The Ivy, Patriot, NEC and MEAC North have ample opportunity to schedule games with the CAA. Add in the SoCon and the CAA South. That's where travel expense doesn't become significant. The other leagues have the opportunity to develop plans for series that make financial sense. Not every CAA team is like Delaware and W&M who fill their schedules quickly!

I've heard Husky Alum explain deals that have been offered by Northeastern to Harvard that would give new meaning to the phrase "sweetheart deal" yet Harvard won't play NU. Dartmouth can't wait for the contract with UNH to expire. The Patriot League teams could opt for more games with the CAA instead of so many Ivy League games, but they don't. They don't need the CAA to break up to make this happen. The MEAC teams in DE, MD, DC and VA could schedule more games with the CAA without travel hardships.

Schedule and win more of these games and the CAA gets fewer bids. Skunk the CAA in the playoffs a couple of years and they'll get fewer bids.

So, tell me again how the problem is all the CAA?

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

But we ARE in the CAA! So enough with the OOC game schedule whining.

Why should the Southern members of the CAA dictate to the Northern members who should be in the North??? Georgia State in the North makes NO SENSE and the Northern teams shouldn't have to budge an inch on this........how stupid is it when you have 4 TEAMS IN VIRGINA and they are talking about putting Georgia State in a division with all New England teams plus Hofstra???? xrolleyesx

You don't seem to mind adding a flight to Atlanta for the UNH football team to the athletic budget every other year.......personally, I don't want to add that expense to the UMaine budget every other year when there are better (more logical) and cheaper options.

I agree that we are in the CAA. I never said it was logical or that the Southern schools should dictate things. At the same time, I don't see it as "a drawing a line in the sand" factor either. That's all I'm saying, of course I'm hoping for a better alignment within the CAA.

You never quantify your "better (more logical) and cheaper options". The only option I ever see are reduced scholarships in the NEC or some option sponsored by AE with full scholarships allowed (the AE4, CCSU, Bryant, Monmouth, Duquesne and probably URI) . I just don't see any option that includes UMass, URI, Hofstra and Northeastern without the CAA outside the A-10 putting on a Superman's cape. I'm open to your vision of other options. Until then I'll add a flight to Atlanta every other year in a heartbeat over that NEC or AE type option any day.

And my OOC mention was because with this type of NEC or AE option we'll be traveling farther for OOC games. We won't be have too many CAA options outside of Northeastern in these scenarios. To me that is a valid factor in any of these discussions. How much of the money saved with a tighter league footprint will be lost scheduling OOC games?

[ur2k]

What exactly is vague about the reasons given? A 14 team conference lands in the midst of 10-or less team conferences? Gee, no one noticed or cares? No, people care and notice. They noticed when the Walmart came to town and all the smaller shops got priced out. They noticed when "Big Corp." came to town and all the smaller service providers shut down. They noticed when Walmart and Big Corp. ... Follow me? Nothing nefarious, just people are noticing and the CAA knows it.

Yes, the reasons are vague. What are they? I've asked about 5 times know and still haven't seen them besides - its too large ... like Walmart. What the does that have to do with the CAA impacting the FCS world as a whole?

LFN has brought up the playoff issue and that's the only concrete arguement so far.

[mainejeff]

You never quantify your "better (more logical) and cheaper options".

No no......that statement only applied to the Georgia State in the North train of thought. By the way, I wonder how Georgia State feels about being placed in the Northern Division with a bunch of New England teams? I'd feel pretty shafted if that happened and I were them considering that they are a full CAA member and the CAA is the one that has been pushing their membership to start-up football.


The only option I ever see are reduced scholarships in the NEC or some option sponsored by AE with full scholarships allowed (the AE4, CCSU, Bryant, Monmouth, Duquesne and probably URI) . I just don't see any option that includes UMass, URI, Hofstra and Northeastern without the CAA outside the A-10 putting on a Superman's cape. I'm open to your vision of other options. Until then I'll add a flight to Atlanta every other year in a heartbeat over that NEC or AE type option any day.

So you think that is what it will come to???.......accept Georgia State in the North or the CAA will kick you out???


And my OOC mention was because with this type of NEC or AE option we'll be traveling farther for OOC games. We won't be have too many CAA options outside of Northeastern in these scenarios. To me that is a valid factor in any of these discussions. How much of the money saved with a tighter league footprint will be lost scheduling OOC games?

There is no other option right now.......but I'd like to see how the CAA is going to force Georgia State into the North "or else".....xrolleyesx Can you say lawsuit?

[mainejeff]

Yes, the reasons are vague. What are they? I've asked about 5 times know and still haven't seen them besides - its too large ... like Walmart. What the does that have to do with the CAA impacting the FCS world as a whole?

LFN has brought up the playoff issue and that's the only concrete arguement so far.

The only things that the CAA and Wal-Mart have in common is that they are both hated because they are the top dog.......dominant in their respective realms.

xcoffeex

[Jackman]

I think some non-CAA fans are under the misimpression that CAA fans like the idea of having 14 teams. I don't think any CAA fans like that idea. The problem is we hate all the split proposals. Instead of telling us why the CAA shouldn't have 14 teams, maybe the non-CAA folks should tell us how the league should be split. Then we will tell you why that won't work.

[mainejeff]

This is all Northeastern's fault......and the ironic part is that they may be the first one to suffer the consequences of their decision.

[spdram]

If the CAA is so large and that is why they are getting so many bids, why don't some of the other conferences simply merge. They can be as large or larger and get more bids too, at least that's the way the theroy goes.xlolx

[Husky Alum]

This is all Northeastern's fault......and the ironic part is that they may be the first one to suffer the consequences of their decision.

No, Jeff this is NOT Northeastern's fault.

We brought football to the CAA. We allowed Richmond to win a title in a conference it only plays football in, as opposed to the conference it plays everything else in.

This is Vermont and Hartford's fault for steering away from the CAA/America Least Merger.

If the CAA and the America East merged, there's no need for Georgia State to be in the league, and Albany and SBU would likely be in the NEC.

We'd have the following ALL SPORTS teams that play football in the Colonial-American Conference:

Maine
UNH
NU
Hofstra
Towson
Delaware
JMU
W&M

Then you have affiliates:
Nova
URI
UMass
Richmond

The only "issue" arises when ODU decides to add football, and then you have 13 teams. Arguably, in this situation NU likely wouldn't be playing football any more, so you go from an 11 team conference to 12 with ODU.

What's the problem?

[mainejeff]

This is Vermont and Hartford's fault for steering away from the CAA/America Least Merger.

Oh come on......that proposal was doomed from the start. NO WAY schools from Virginia were going to be in an all-sports league with schools from Maine, NH and VT.

By the way, would you mind if Northeastern were placed in the Southern Division with Towson, JMU, Richmond, W&M, ODU and Georgia State? I think that one of the big reasons for Northeastern joining the CAA was to recruit prospective students from Baltimore, Virginia and points South.....no?

[BDKJMU]

What exactly is vague about the reasons given? A 14 team conference lands in the midst of 10-or less team conferences? Gee, no one noticed or cares? No, people care and notice. They noticed when the Walmart came to town and all the smaller shops got priced out. They noticed when "Big Corp." came to town and all the smaller service providers shut down. They noticed when Walmart and Big Corp. ... Follow me? Nothing nefarious, just people are noticing and the CAA knows it.

Yeah, they noticed they were saving hundreds a yr on groceries (if Super Center) and lots more on other stuff. Depends on how you look at it. Walmart isn't too cheap-the others are just too expensive. (I find Walmart's groceries reasonable and other grocery stores prices too high). The CAA isn't too big, the others are just too small. xlolx Although I'm not sure how Walmart got dragged into thisxconfusedx

[ATrain]

Are there any full scholarship conferences willing to accept new members from New England???.........any of the complainers/whiners have the answer to that one?............xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

Big South took Stony Brook and was interested in Albany, don't see why KK would object to any other northern teams

[henfan]

Oh come on......that proposal was doomed from the start. NO WAY schools from Virginia were going to be in an all-sports league with schools from Maine, NH and VT.

Jeff, your comment seems to imply that the VA schools voted down or would have voted down the AEC takeover of the CAA. Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact, they had little choice in the matter at the time. The CAA had already approved the plan to move forward, which is why the AEC was voting on it.

You'll recall that the sudden departure of Richmond left the CAA on the verge of losing multiple NCAA autobids. AEC member at the time, Delaware, who had been unsuccessfully courted by the CAA earlier in 2000, was key in trying to broker a deal that would have brought the remaining CAA schools (minus UNCW) into the AEC. The only thing that doomed the plan was the AEC majority's inability to persuade a couple I-AAA schools in the conference to vote in favor of the takeover.

In the wake of this plan, there's no guarantee that UR would have stayed in the AEC for FB or that ODU would have embarked on a FB startup. It would have brought UMass into the AEC as a FB affiliate. Who knows what impact it might have had on the AEC's effort to take over Hockey East and opened up the door to bring in affiliates for other sports like LAX? What we do know is that it would have resulted in the almost immediate takeover of the A-10 FB league by the AEC. In the end, the AEC's voting structure paved the way for a small minority to dictate the interests of an entire conference for years, if not decades.

[Husky Alum]

Oh come on......that proposal was doomed from the start. NO WAY schools from Virginia were going to be in an all-sports league with schools from Maine, NH and VT.

By the way, would you mind if Northeastern were placed in the Southern Division with Towson, JMU, Richmond, W&M, ODU and Georgia State? I think that one of the big reasons for Northeastern joining the CAA was to recruit prospective students from Baltimore, Virginia and points South.....no?

When we joined the Yankee Conference we were in the Southern division, check the history books. That was one of the contingencies for NU being admitted to the league. Herr Silber lifted his moratorium against NU (and got an honorary doctorate from NU), and we were admitted.

We've been there before.

The proposal was doomed because Hartford and Vermont were against it, and then other AE schools rallied behind them.

Everything I've heard from folks in the legacy CAA was that they loved the idea of the merger. UNCW wasn't happy, but they're not happy with what we have now either.

We'd have America East Hockey and America East Football - to further henfan's comment. As long as the AE has a dysfunctional membership it's going to be status quo at best - and member schools will always have one eye out the door (this means you, BU, Albany and SBU).

There's no way BU would have voted against AE Hockey if it was in a superior all sport conference following the merger. It voted against AE Hockey because it doesn't want to be in the AE, and doesn't want to play hockey in a conference it may have nothing to do with in the future.

I'm wagering if the merger took place, Hartford would have bailed for the NEC, and we know UNCW was gone. Vermont would have had no place to go but might have tried to start a new conference with the SUNY 3 and Hartford. That was something I heard as an "olive branch" to UVM and Hartford - vote for the merger, then leave and we'll help you form another conference, but UVM didn't want to be in a league that didn't have Maine and UNH in it.

[henfan]

Why should the Southern members of the CAA dictate to the Northern members who should be in the North???

Jeff, each school, including UMaine, will have an equal voice and, ultimately, an equal vote about where to place GSU. Membership decisions are voted on democratically and according to conference by laws, not dictated by one side or another.

The last thing the CAA wants to do is drive away affiliates, all of whom contribute financially and competitively to the league's success. They also add greatly to the stability to the league.

I'd bet this thing is a lot less acrimonious than you appear to believe. Don't fret, they'll figure it out.

[henfan]

At the risk of extending this thread further, unlikely though it may be, perhaps economics will drive CAA officials to eventually look at a 15-team, 3-division association. Add an expansion affiliate and shuffle teams to and from the Mid-Atlantic & South accordingly. An SBU or Albany would fit nicely into the Mid-Atlantic Division. (Also nice to acknowledge the former Yankee Conference & Atlantic 10 by referring to them in the division names.)

Yankee Division
UMaine
UNH
NU
URI
UMass

Mid-Atlantic Division
HU
VU
UD
TU

South Division
JMU
UR
W&M
ODU
GSU

[Jackman]

There's no way BU would have voted against AE Hockey if it was in a superior all sport conference following the merger. It voted against AE Hockey because it doesn't want to be in the AE, and doesn't want to play hockey in a conference it may have nothing to do with in the future.
Where in the world does BU think it's going?

[mainejeff]

Jeff, your comment seems to imply that the VA schools voted down or would have voted down the AEC takeover of the CAA. Nothing could be further from the truth; in fact, they had little choice in the matter at the time. The CAA had already approved the plan to move forward, which is why the AEC was voting on it.

You'll recall that the sudden departure of Richmond left the CAA on the verge of losing multiple NCAA autobids. AEC member at the time, Delaware, who had been unsuccessfully courted by the CAA earlier in 2000, was key in trying to broker a deal that would have brought the remaining CAA schools (minus UNCW) into the AEC. The only thing that doomed the plan was the AEC majority's inability to persuade a couple I-AAA schools in the conference to vote in favor of the takeover.

In the wake of this plan, there's no guarantee that UR would have stayed in the AEC for FB or that ODU would have embarked on a FB startup. It would have brought UMass into the AEC as a FB affiliate. Who knows what impact it might have had on the AEC's effort to take over Hockey East and opened up the door to bring in affiliates for other sports like LAX? What we do know is that it would have resulted in the almost immediate takeover of the A-10 FB league by the AEC. In the end, the AEC's voting structure paved the way for a small minority to dictate the interests of an entire conference for years, if not decades.

I won't argue about it not being approved by the Virginia schools for the sake of their own survival.......but there is no way that conference would have survived more than a few years. It has definitely worked out better for most schools, especially the ones still in AE and the original CAA members. Not so sure about Delaware, Drexel, Towson, Hofstra and Northeastern.

[mainejeff]

When we joined the Yankee Conference we were in the Southern division, check the history books. That was one of the contingencies for NU being admitted to the league. Herr Silber lifted his moratorium against NU (and got an honorary doctorate from NU), and we were admitted.

We've been there before.

The proposal was doomed because Hartford and Vermont were against it, and then other AE schools rallied behind them.

Everything I've heard from folks in the legacy CAA was that they loved the idea of the merger. UNCW wasn't happy, but they're not happy with what we have now either.

We'd have America East Hockey and America East Football - to further henfan's comment. As long as the AE has a dysfunctional membership it's going to be status quo at best - and member schools will always have one eye out the door (this means you, BU, Albany and SBU).

There's no way BU would have voted against AE Hockey if it was in a superior all sport conference following the merger. It voted against AE Hockey because it doesn't want to be in the AE, and doesn't want to play hockey in a conference it may have nothing to do with in the future.

I'm wagering if the merger took place, Hartford would have bailed for the NEC, and we know UNCW was gone. Vermont would have had no place to go but might have tried to start a new conference with the SUNY 3 and Hartford. That was something I heard as an "olive branch" to UVM and Hartford - vote for the merger, then leave and we'll help you form another conference, but UVM didn't want to be in a league that didn't have Maine and UNH in it.

BU is an attractive academic school to have in any league.......but athletics wise......yeah, great hockey program and arena........otherwise, no football, no baseball, no men's lacrosse......and there's barely a pulse of a fan base outside of hockey. Too bad that they seem to control so much......

[Husky Alum]

At the risk of extending this thread further, unlikely though it may be, perhaps economics will drive CAA officials to eventually look at a 15-team, 3-division association. Add an expansion affiliate and shuffle teams to and from the Mid-Atlantic & South accordingly. An SBU or Albany would fit nicely into the Mid-Atlantic Division. (Also nice to acknowledge the former Yankee Conference & Atlantic 10 by referring to them in the division names.)

Yankee Division
UMaine
UNH
NU
URI
UMass

Mid-Atlantic Division
HU
VU
UD
TU

South Division
JMU
UR
W&M
ODU
GSU

Let's explore the 2 leagues administered by the CAA concept.

How does this sound...

Yankee Conference
==
NU
Maine
UNH
URI
Hofstra
Albany
Stony Brook
UMass

CAA
===
Towson
Villanova
JMU
W&M
ODU
GSU
Delaware
Richmond

Play 7 league games, and then the CAA and Yankee would have a scheduling agreement where they'd play two games against teams in the other league (home/home) - kinda like the PL/Ivy "agreement". That's 9 games in an 11 game schedule.

The Yankee wouldn't have an autobid, but I don't think that in recent years the Yankee "winner" would have had a problem getting a bid to the playoffs.

[mainejeff]

Jeff, each school, including UMaine, will have an equal voice and, ultimately, an equal vote about where to place GSU. Membership decisions are voted on democratically and according to conference by laws, not dictated by one side or another.

The last thing the CAA wants to do is drive away affiliates, all of whom contribute financially and competitively to the league's success. They also add greatly to the stability to the league.

I'd bet this thing is a lot less acrimonious than you appear to believe. Don't fret, they'll figure it out.

That's good to hear. xthumbsupx

[mainejeff]

Where in the world does BU think it's going?

Only they know. ;)

[Husky Alum]

Where in the world does BU think it's going?

They have some delusion that when conferences shake up they're going to get an invite to some conference that's better or equl to than either the CAA or the A-10.

Hey MJ, how many different boards can we have the same discussion on?

If you got a subscription to Diehard dogs we could debate this topic on 4 boards, right?

[mainejeff]

They have some delusion that when conferences shake up they're going to get an invite to some conference that's better or equl to than either the CAA or the A-10.

Delusional is the perfect description.......a school with no football, no baseball, no men's lacrosse.......and no fan base.

[Husky Alum]

Delusional is the perfect description.......a school with no football, no baseball, no men's lacrosse.......and no fan base.

Except for the first two monday nights in february.

[JMU DJ]

Ok so I said this elsewhere... but since the CAA gets the most teams in the playoffs anyway. Half of the FCS tournament bracket should be devoted to determining the CAA champion. This wouldn't be an elimination bracket, it would just be to allow the CAA teams to play everyone in the conference. The final game would be an elimination between the CAA North and CAA South champs. The winner would advance to the National Championship game. This would solve all of the problems with the current status of the CAA.

Note: this is not smack and only a joke


It's probably been repeated a million times in this thread... the CAA will have to split or divide further into North and South if teams don't make the jump to the FBS. I wonder what teams are thinking about this especially with JMU building a 40K plus stadium

[Go...gate]

I agree with you.

The Ivy, Patriot, NEC and MEAC North have ample opportunity to schedule games with the CAA. Add in the SoCon and the CAA South. That's where travel expense doesn't become significant. The other leagues have the opportunity to develop plans for series that make financial sense. Not every CAA team is like Delaware and W&M who fill their schedules quickly!

I've heard Husky Alum explain deals that have been offered by Northeastern to Harvard that would give new meaning to the phrase "sweetheart deal" yet Harvard won't play NU. Dartmouth can't wait for the contract with UNH to expire. The Patriot League teams could opt for more games with the CAA instead of so many Ivy League games, but they don't. They don't need the CAA to break up to make this happen. The MEAC teams in DE, MD, DC and VA could schedule more games with the CAA without travel hardships.

Schedule and win more of these games and the CAA gets fewer bids. Skunk the CAA in the playoffs a couple of years and they'll get fewer bids.

So, tell me again how the problem is all the CAA?

This may change soon, as far as Colgate is concerned. Our series with Dartmouth ends in two years, our series with Princeton has been cut back by Princeton, and our Ivy OOC games are declining. I think you will begin to see Colgate on more CAA schedules, provided our AD does not hold to his idiotic home-and-home conditions.

[DFW HOYA]

..the CAA will have to split or divide further into North and South if teams don't make the jump to the FBS. I wonder what teams are thinking about this especially with JMU building a 40K plus stadium

Thinking About It:
James Madison
Georgia State

Thought About It and Passed:
UMass
Villanova
Delaware

Not In The Short-Term:
Hofstra
Towson
Richmond
W&M
Old Dominion

Not In The Long-Term:
Northeastern
URI
UNH
Maine

[Syntax Error]

Skunk the CAA in the playoffs a couple of years and they'll get fewer bids.Didn't the PL do this, this century?

[henfan]

Let's explore the 2 leagues administered by the CAA concept.

How does this sound...

Sounds like a fine proposalxthumbsupx, assuming UA begins sponsoring 63 schollies by 2012, and assuming the hypothetical YankCon would be assured equal NCAA committee representation & playoff access. The political questions might be more easily addressed leaving it as two separate divisions.

And then there's always the question of how the NEC & Big South would receive the poaching of membership. Now, there's the potential to cause some actual hard feelings between those three conferences.

[mainejeff]

Thinking About It:
James Madison
Georgia State

Thought About It and Passed:
UMass
Villanova
Delaware

Not In The Short-Term:
Hofstra
Towson
Richmond
W&M
Old Dominion

Not In The Long-Term:
Northeastern
URI
UNH
Maine

This is how I would rank teams on moving up to FBS eventually....

1. JMU
2. ODU
3. Georgia State
4. UMass
5. Delaware
.
.
.
6. Towson
7. Villanova
.
.
8. UNH
9. Maine
.
.
.
.
10. Hofstra
11. William & Mary
12. Richmond
13. URI
14. Northeastern


10-14 I would put in the "never" category.

[Jackman]

They [BU] have some delusion that when conferences shake up they're going to get an invite to some conference that's better or equl to than either the CAA or the A-10.
What conceivable combination of schools would that be? They're insane. The only way BU is getting into a better conference than the A10 or CAA is if they convert to Catholicism.


Let's explore the 2 leagues administered by the CAA concept.

How does this sound...

Yankee Conference
==
NU
Maine
UNH
URI
Hofstra
Albany
Stony Brook
UMass

CAA
===
Towson
Villanova
JMU
W&M
ODU
GSU
Delaware
Richmond

Well, I guess my first reaction would be, what's in it for us? I mean, when UMass wants a home-and-home with Albany, all we have to do is pick up the phone. Those guys play 4 home games a year, we'd probably only get to "do you want a home-and-ho" before they screamed "YES". I mean, I'm sympathetic to the plights of the SUNYs, but how does it serve our self-interests to bring them in? We already have more conference members than we can play.

[Jackman]

Is something new going on at JMU to put them first on two "odds of going to FBS" lists?

Georgia State has to be #1 on any odds list. They're the only ones with a reasonable FBS conference affiliation available (other than Villanova), and they're already renting a NFL stadium for god sakes. CAA football doesn't cost any less to play than Sun Belt football, and they have no history, tradition or rivalries along with no local CAA opponents, so why in the world would they stay at FCS? I can't think of a single reason.

The rest of us have issues with conference affiliations and need to build stadiums. Many more reasons for UMass, Delaware, JMU and ODU to watch and wait than GSU.

[Go...gate]

Delusional is the perfect description.......a school with no football, no baseball, no men's lacrosse.......and no fan base.

You forgot to mention a President who is completely out of touch with reality with regard to collegiate athletics.

What about BU and NU in the Patriot League? The PL would get one more FB member, Holy Cross would get two regional rivals and the league footprint would be pretty much the same, plus we pick up the Boston media market.

Yes, BU and NU are both huge schools but both are also private, which fits the PL template. BU his highly selective and NU, as I have said on other threads, has (like American) invested millions in its facilities and staff to really raise its academic profile.

The PL, unlike the CAA a true all-sports conference, would be a ten-team league for basketball and eight-team for football.

The CAA would then have additional openings.

Just my xtwocentsx

[ChooChoo]

Is something new going on at JMU to put them first on two "odds of going to FBS" lists?

Georgia State has to be #1 on any odds list. They're the only ones with a reasonable FBS conference affiliation available (other than Villanova), and they're already renting a NFL stadium for god sakes. CAA football doesn't cost any less to play than Sun Belt football, and they have no history, tradition or rivalries along with no local CAA opponents, so why in the world would they stay at FCS? I can't think of a single reason.

The rest of us have issues with conference affiliations and need to build stadiums. Many more reasons for UMass, Delaware, JMU and ODU to watch and wait than GSU.

I agree that GSU has a better shot to go FBS quicker. I know, "you haven't played a down yet". True, but most of us believe that to be a successful program we will have to appeal to more fans/people by playing against more southern/regional schools. We already share history with some of the schools in the SunBelt from the old TAAC and A-Sun days which include FIU, FAU, South Alabama, and Troy. Plus MTSU is only 3.5 hrs north. Is the SunBelt the ideal conference? Of course not. Its obviously the bottom of the FBS pecking order. But from a budget and regional aspect, it certainly makes more sense. I'd prefer a mix of school from C-USA, CAA, and SunBelt, but that's a hypothetical. Joining the SunBelt is an actual possability, thus making a leap to higher conference in the pecking order a LOT easier than going straight up from FCS.

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

This is how I would rank teams on moving up to FBS eventually....

1. JMU
2. ODU
3. Georgia State
4. UMass
5. Delaware
.
.
6. Towson
7. Villanova
.

8. UNH
9. Maine
.
.
10. Hofstra
11. William & Mary
12. Richmond
13. URI
14. Northeastern


10-14 I would put in the "never" category.

You can drop #8 down into the "never" category. I would think that UMAINE would also drop down, .... #7 was 1-A for decades and it didn't agree with them obviously. As such, drop them to replace UNH at the very least, ...

[Tealblood]

Georgia St.'s travel budget will be about the same in the CAA as it would be in the sun beltxrotatehx

[Tealblood]

I mean they will have to get on a plane no matter where they go

[Jackman]

You can drop #8 down into the "never" category. I would think that UMAINE would also drop down, .... #7 was 1-A for decades and it didn't agree with them obviously. As such, drop them to replace UNH at the very least, ...
"Never" is a strong word. Circumstances could change. If the NCAA pulled another "Dayton Rule" and required participation in Division I FBS in order to play Division I basketball or hockey (the other two revenue sports), I bet UNH and Maine could find the money for one of those erector set stadiums being built on the cheap at the smaller Florida schools. Either that or they'd disband their football teams, but I don't think that's definite. Build the stadium and you're good to go FBS, that's all it takes. Make it part of the economic recovery plan. Instead of building bridges to islands with only 3000 people, we'll use government money to build big football stadiums for teams with only 3000 fans. Those things create jobs. You need to hire concession stand workers. For a couple hours. Five days a year.

[89Hen]

The last thing the CAA wants to do is drive away affiliates, all of whom contribute financially and competitively to the league's success. They also add greatly to the stability to the league.
Dunno about "last thing"... you've said that for a couple years, but in that time I think you have softened your position on the possibility of a split.

[bostonspider]

"Never" is a strong word. Circumstances could change. If the NCAA pulled another "Dayton Rule" and required participation in Division I FBS in order to play Division I basketball or hockey (the other two revenue sports), I bet UNH and Maine could find the money for one of those erector set stadiums being built on the cheap at the smaller Florida schools. Either that or they'd disband their football teams, but I don't think that's definite. Build the stadium and you're good to go FBS, that's all it takes. Make it part of the economic recovery plan. Instead of building bridges to islands with only 3000 people, we'll use government money to build big football stadiums for teams with only 3000 fans. Those things create jobs. You need to hire concession stand workers. For a couple hours. Five days a year.

Well if the NCAA "pulled another 'Dayton Rule'", then Richmond would probably move out of the "never" category as well. I would think if that were the care, UR would either drop football or make the move up. Work with the city and build ANOTHER new stadium, one that the city and the university could share.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dunno about "last thing"... you've said that for a couple years, but in that time I think you have softened your position on the possibility of a split.

It only took, what, 331 posts? xlolx

[henfan]

Dunno about "last thing"... you've said that for a couple years, but in that time I think you have softened your position on the possibility of a split.

Well, of course there's two things going on. One doesn't matter one fig (i.e.- my wishes & opinions); the other is the only thing that matters (i.e.- what CAA members want.) "The last thing" comment was derived in part from common sense and in part from league officials' comments & actions over the last 3+ years.

I've always believed and still think some sort of membership change is inevitable, but I just don't see evidence of it happening soon. Given the way things have developed since the CAA assumed control of the league, drastic and quick changes to the league's composition seem less likely . OK, that's my opinion. I acknowledge that I could be proven wrong in the coming months and years.

Back on planet Earth, CAA members & affiliates will do what's best for their respective schools... and on their own timetables. We fans will be relegated to doing what we do best: spectating, speculating and second guessing.;)

[yorkcountyUNHfan]

We fans will be relegated to doing what we do best: spectating, speculating and second guessing.;)

You forgot spreading rumors on internet message boards.xthumbsupx

[89Hen]

"The last thing" comment was derived in part from common sense and in part from league officials' comments & actions over the last 3+ years.
I think that's the most important piece and something I've been telling you for 3+ years.... things change. Namely ODU and GSU. Anything Yeager said 3 years ago was said in a different CAA world. You are right that none of us have any input or really any idea what will happen... but you are the one who kinda rules things out... ie making the CAA an all-sports conference. xpeacex

[henfan]

I think that's the most important piece and something I've been telling you for 3+ years.... things change. Namely ODU and GSU. Anything Yeager said 3 years ago was said in a different CAA world. You are right that none of us have any input or really any idea what will happen... but you are the one who kinda rules things out... ie making the CAA an all-sports conference. xpeacex

Change is something I've been preaching for a long, long time. You and I are beginning to sound like McCain & Obama!xlolx

My opinion, based on the evidence I've seen and heard, is that change is indeed going to come eventually, just slowly and not as drastic as some here have projected. My opinion could be wrong. (My personal desire is much different than my opinion, BTW. I'd like to see the CAA become strong enough not to have to rely so heavily on affiliates for FB, LAX, etc., so long as the change needed doesn't come at the expense of long-time rivalries.)

Even since the time that ODU's & GSU's plans were unveiled, the league mantra has centered around the effort to keep the league together. When asked directly at a UD FB function less than 1 year ago (not 3!), when ODU was a done deal and GSU was probable, Yeager said that the league's intention was to keep the all of the members in the league.

In fact, the impact of expansion was accounted for at the time the CAA assumed control of the FB league; hence, the agreement that any CAA all-sport members would be granted league membership upon startup of a full equivalancy FB program. It's little suprise to anyone who had been paying attention that FB was on the horizon for a few of the CAA's I-AAA schools.

[PantherRob82]

Just add a 15th team and have three 5 team divisions. :)

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

You forgot to mention a President who is completely out of touch with reality with regard to collegiate athletics.

What about BU and NU in the Patriot League? The PL would get one more FB member, Holy Cross would get two regional rivals and the league footprint would be pretty much the same, plus we pick up the Boston media market.

Yes, BU and NU are both huge schools but both are also private, which fits the PL template. BU his highly selective and NU, as I have said on other threads, has (like American) invested millions in its facilities and staff to really raise its academic profile.

The PL, unlike the CAA a true all-sports conference, would be a ten-team league for basketball and eight-team for football.

The CAA would then have additional openings.

Just my xtwocentsx

BU is probably too delusional to ever consider the Patriot. While both schools are "huge" by Patriot standards, they aren't "huge" like many flagship state U's or Big Ten schools.

Ironically (IMO anyway), the Patriot has had a direct impact on the growth of the CAA Football League. From what I've read with a little different philosophy over the years, they might have attracted William & Mary, Richmond, Hofstra, Northeastern and Villanova to be all sports members/affiliate members. Maybe even BU, but Herr Silber probably would have axed football regardless, but we'll never know.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I won't argue about it not being approved by the Virginia schools for the sake of their own survival.......but there is no way that conference would have survived more than a few years. It has definitely worked out better for most schools, especially the ones still in AE and the original CAA members. Not so sure about Delaware, Drexel, Towson, Hofstra and Northeastern.

Might not have survived, but it would have put eight football playing schools together in an all sports league. Can't help but feel we'd all be better off today if that had happened.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You forgot to mention a President who is completely out of touch with reality with regard to collegiate athletics.

What about BU and NU in the Patriot League? The PL would get one more FB member, Holy Cross would get two regional rivals and the league footprint would be pretty much the same, plus we pick up the Boston media market.

Yes, BU and NU are both huge schools but both are also private, which fits the PL template. BU his highly selective and NU, as I have said on other threads, has (like American) invested millions in its facilities and staff to really raise its academic profile.

The PL, unlike the CAA a true all-sports conference, would be a ten-team league for basketball and eight-team for football.

The CAA would then have additional openings.

Just my xtwocentsx

How many hockey schools would that give the Patriot League...?

Holy Cross, Colgate, BU, NU... maybe peel off the six Ivy League schools...

Maybe add RPI and Clarkson to the mix?

That might be another compelling reason for NU and BU to go Patriot. Not only an eight-team football conference and a ten-team basketball conference (a great basketball conference, incidentally), you'd have the foundations for a very, very good academically-oriented PL Hockey conference.

[89Hen]

When asked directly at a UD FB function less than 1 year ago (not 3!), when ODU was a done deal and GSU was probable, Yeager said that the league's intention was to keep the all of the members in the league.
Should have pressed him on what he meant by "members". xsmiley_wix

[bluehenbillk]

Excuse me from not paging through this whole thread, any articles come out of the AD's meeting??

[Husky Alum]

You forgot to mention a President who is completely out of touch with reality with regard to collegiate athletics.

What about BU and NU in the Patriot League? The PL would get one more FB member, Holy Cross would get two regional rivals and the league footprint would be pretty much the same, plus we pick up the Boston media market.

Yes, BU and NU are both huge schools but both are also private, which fits the PL template. BU his highly selective and NU, as I have said on other threads, has (like American) invested millions in its facilities and staff to really raise its academic profile.

The PL, unlike the CAA a true all-sports conference, would be a ten-team league for basketball and eight-team for football.

The CAA would then have additional openings.

Just my xtwocentsx

Invite us, and we will come.

You just need to convince the Worcester Campus of Boston College to lower itself and ready itself for association with Boston University and Blue Collar Northeastern.

We've tried to get in the PL, but were told (a) you're not selective enough, (b) your academics aren't PL quality, and (c) you're too big.

While not at the behest of the PL, we've done (a)-(c), and you still won't take us.

[mainejeff]

Might not have survived, but it would have put eight football playing schools together in an all sports league. Can't help but feel we'd all be better off today if that had happened.

Would we?

We may have less questions and stress about our football futures.......but as of right now, it has been better for the original CAA and AE members......AE got rid of a bunch of schools that won a bunch of NCAA bids in various sports......the current AE schools athletic programs have benefited from that. And UNH (5 straight bids) and Maine (3 bids) have not suffered in football because of it. And obviously, the original CAA members saved their league and strengthened it.

The CAA5 however have not fared so well outside of football.......how many total NCAA bids have those 5 members received in other sports since they left AE???

[henfan]

Should have pressed him on what he meant by "members". xsmiley_wix

"Members" was actually my word. Sorry. I'll clarify.

Yeager, responding to a direct question about whether or not any affiliates would be jettisoned once ODU or others came on board, responded in such a way as to leave no doubt that the league would not be forcing out any members and, in fact, would work to keep them all together. Maybe things have changed dramatically in the last 10 months, but I don't see any evidence of that having happened.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Would we?

We may have less questions and stress about our football futures.......but as of right now, it has been better for the original CAA and AE members......AE got rid of a bunch of schools that won a bunch of NCAA bids in various sports......the current AE schools athletic programs have benefited from that. And UNH (5 straight bids) and Maine (3 bids) have not suffered in football because of it. And obviously, the original CAA members saved their league and strengthened it.

The CAA5 however have not fared so well outside of football.......how many total NCAA bids have those 5 members received in other sports since they left AE???

I think so, but I acknowledge it might be because I view football as being more important within the UNH athletic department than you do of Maine's. To me, hockey revolves in a parallel universe and will continue to do so thanks to BU. And a good many of the NCAA teams at UNH aren't in AE. So, for me football is easily UNH's sport that I'd want an all sports league to revolve around. Not enough people care about the Olympic Sports and I don't even want to talk about basketball after yesterday. So, I emphasize football and the merger in 2000 would have provided that.

And most importantly it would have provided the environment to continue not only getting playoff bids but also having teams where getting to Chatty was feasible. As well as providing a high quality regular season slate that I and others want to travel to watch. To me that all brings the university more in donations and more people involved with their alma mater than a bunch of NCAA bids in Olympic sports. And with UNH's out of state enrollment approaching 50%, I think UNH should be associated with Delaware and Towson for many reasons. But that's JMHO.

[Husky Alum]

And with UNH's out of state enrollment approaching 50%, I think UNH should be associated with Delaware and Towson for many reasons. But that's JMHO.

Careful UNHAlum, that was NU's rationale for joining the CAA and Jeffy didn't like that argument then.

As for Former AE school wins in sports since the merger...

Off of the top of my head

NU went in Women's Soccer this year, Hofstra last year
UD went in Volleyball this year and last
NU won women's track last year
Towson won women's swimming last year
Towson won women's lax last year
Hofstra won men's lax last year
Hofstra won softball last year

In 2006-07
==
Hofstra won volleyball, men's soccer, women's lax, and softball
Delaware won men's lax
NU won women's track

That doesn't include at large bids/NIT bids. I don't have the time to research.

I think that's a fair list, no?

[henfan]

The CAA5 however have not fared so well outside of football.......how many total NCAA bids have those 5 members received in other sports since they left AE???

Former AEC members have a much different view, of course. Alas, finding a lesser competitive, cheaper route to NCAA tourney appearances was not at the forefront of any of the minds of our schools... and that philosophy certainly wouldn't have improved the chances of succeding on a national level.

Unequivocaly, the move was a great one for UD, especially now that the league has FB. The school's not been without NCAA tournament appearances in Olympic sports (i.e.- Final Four MLAX appearance, WBB, & volleyball.) Sure, winning titles has not been as sure a thing but it's also led to the realization that the school would have to begin investing more, improving its facilities and bolstering fund raising. It sure beats coasting indefinitely, which, let's face it, is exactly what the school was able to do in the AEC.

Having an all-sport conference doesn't suck.xthumbsupx My biggest regret is that UMaine & UNH couldn't have been part of it.

[Go...gate]

Invite us, and we will come.

You just need to convince the Worcester Campus of Boston College to lower itself and ready itself for association with Boston University and Blue Collar Northeastern.

We've tried to get in the PL, but were told (a) you're not selective enough, (b) your academics aren't PL quality, and (c) you're too big.

While not at the behest of the PL, we've done (a)-(c), and you still won't take us.

I truly never realized HC had raised such resentment up there, and if that is indeed the basis (that they have become "elitist") that seems hypocritical on their part, not to mention at odds with the Jesuit approach to things. Fordham sure as Hell isn't that way and their academics are certainly on a par with HC and BC.

As far as "we still won't take" NU, I don't know when you last sought membership, but the landscape is certainly changing.

[Husky Alum]

I truly never realized HC had raised such resentment up there, and if that is indeed the basis (that they have become "elitist") that seems hypocritical on their part, not to mention at odds with the Jesuit approach to things. Fordham sure as Hell isn't that way and their academics are certainly on a par with HC and BC.

As far as "we still won't take" NU, I don't know when you last sought membership, but the landscape is certainly changing.

It's not resentment. It's more like good natured ribbing.

I mentioned on another thread that HC alumni have this air about them, so it's easy to play off of that smug arrogance.

If you remember, they didn't join the Big East because they didn't want to be a "jock school" and then when they dropped FB scholarships, people really liked to kick sand in their face because in the late 1980s they seemed to do that to a bunch of schools.

There's a certain sector of their alumni who have the BC "holier than thou" attitude (no pun intended), but all in all I tolerate them more than BC alumni.

We applied for admission in 2004-05. We're happy in the CAA, but would have loved the PL if we were accepted before the CAA.

[Jackman]

Isn't Holy Cross the only football program in NCAA history to voluntarily move from FBS to FCS? We have quite the quirky collection of Division I programs in Massachusetts. We all do everything ass backwards, yet no two of us are moving in the same direction. That takes talent, of sorts.

[mainejeff]

And most importantly it would have provided the environment to continue not only getting playoff bids but also having teams where getting to Chatty was feasible. As well as providing a high quality regular season slate that I and others want to travel to watch.

???.....I'm not sure I get your point. How hasn't it been feasible for UNH to get to Chatty? And how would a 15/16 team all-sports league improved that "feasibility" to get to Chatty?......and how would the regular season slate be any different than it is now??? xconfusedx

[mainejeff]

Careful UNHAlum, that was NU's rationale for joining the CAA and Jeffy didn't like that argument then.

As for Former AE school wins in sports since the merger...

Off of the top of my head

NU went in Women's Soccer this year, Hofstra last year
UD went in Volleyball this year and last
NU won women's track last year
Towson won women's swimming last year
Towson won women's lax last year
Hofstra won men's lax last year
Hofstra won softball last year

In 2006-07
==
Hofstra won volleyball, men's soccer, women's lax, and softball
Delaware won men's lax
NU won women's track

That doesn't include at large bids/NIT bids. I don't have the time to research.

I think that's a fair list, no?

Do any of the orginal CAA members have men's lax or softball? xconfusedx

How have the CAA5 done in men's hoops, women's hoops, and baseball?

Any NCAA bids in those sports?

[mainejeff]

Former AEC members have a much different view, of course. Alas, finding a lesser competitive, cheaper route to NCAA tourney appearances was not at the forefront of any of the minds of our schools... and that philosophy certainly wouldn't have improved the chances of succeding on a national level.

I think that is a lame excuse for fans of schools that haven't had much success recently.


Unequivocaly, the move was a great one for UD, especially now that the league has FB. The school's not been without NCAA tournament appearances in Olympic sports (i.e.- Final Four MLAX appearance, WBB, & volleyball.) Sure, winning titles has not been as sure a thing but it's also led to the realization that the school would have to begin investing more, improving its facilities and bolstering fund raising. It sure beats coasting indefinitely, which, let's face it, is exactly what the school was able to do in the AEC.

Having an all-sport conference doesn't suck.xthumbsupx

I agree with the move as it concerns Delaware. You are now mid-footprint in a league (less travel, less expenses) with some nice academic institutions......and of course you have to be happy with your football situation. Delaware definitely made a good move for ITSELF. ;)

[henfan]

I think that is a lame excuse for fans of schools that haven't had much success recently.

Apparently, either you didn't understand or fully read my comment, as you've confused fans' wishes with the schools' intentions. The point you picked out addressed the latter.

To rehash old ground, a move to the CAA was seen in advance by all of the schools involved as a competitive step up for most sports, which proved to be true. If you go back and read the schools' comments at the time of their respective moves, every one suggested that they would need to invest more in athletics to compete in the CAA and that it wouldn't be an easy road to hoe competitively. That's proven to be true.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion about whether or not the move to the CAA was successful for NU, TU, HU, DU or UD. Judged through the narrow lense that only conference championships=success, I can see how you'd arrive at your conclusion. Obviously, there's much more to it than that, at least from this fan's perspective and, I'd argue, from the schools' perspectives.

I don't pretend to speak for all fans at UD, NU, TU, HU & DU, obviously. I'm sure there is some small minority who longs for the days of AEC competition and would love to move back. I just haven't seen any evidence of it in public forums or from fans with whom I've spoken. Personally, I can only say that, as much as I respect and miss UD competing with schools like UMaine, UNH & BU and wish those schools were still part of the fold, I wouldn't ever want ever wish my school into a position where it was striving to increase its chances of post-season play by lessening the competitive level of play, allowing it to look for ways to further reduce (rather than increase) athletic spending at the expense of competition, etc. That's just me.

(BTW, accounting for inflation, UD's travel expenses have actually increased slightly in the CAA, due to regular trips to Wilmington, NC and Atlanta. It's the cost of doing business in a further reaching, more competitive league.)

[89Hen]

How have the CAA5 done in men's hoops, women's hoops, and baseball?
UD women's hoops has finished 1st twice, 2nd once and 3rd twice. Last year was the first losing season for them since joining.

Baseball has struggled in the CAA after dominating the NAC and AE, but did tie for 1st in 2007.

Men's hoops... wouldn't have mattered if they were still in the AE, the loss of Brey and hiring of Henderson had more to do with the downturn than moving to the CAA. :(

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

And most importantly it would have provided the environment to continue not only getting playoff bids but also having teams where getting to Chatty was feasible. As well as providing a high quality regular season slate that I and others want to travel to watch.


???.....I'm not sure I get your point. How hasn't it been feasible for UNH to get to Chatty? And how would a 15/16 team all-sports league improved that "feasibility" to get to Chatty?......and how would the regular season slate be any different than it is now??? xconfusedx

Didn't say it hasn't been feasible for UNH to get to Chatty, but over the past couple of years I have expressed my opinion that having to play in any of the inferior league options that have been proposed would probably result in many one and done playoff runs. Having that 15/16 team all-sports league would've have ensured UNH (and Maine) continuing in CAA football. We wouldn't be an affiliate having to worry about the future or some inferior AE Football League or having to reduce scholarships and go NEC. Remaining in the CAA continues the status quo of a true Chatty capable team if you make the playoffs and a wonderful regular season slate. The proposed league options IMO did not offer either.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I just want to mention that if the CAA breaks apart into two new conferences, as long as the new conference is playoff-eligible and has played together for more than 4 years (or 5, I forget) they would be eligible immediately for an autobid.

Any notion that the New Yankee would necessarily lose their autobid is faulty. As long as they've all been together, they should apply (and receive) one.

Note also that this might effectively eliminate these "Georgia State in the New Yankee" discussions. This makes it much more likely that Towson gets forced into the New Yankee to preserve the autobid.

[danefan]

I just want to mention that if the CAA breaks apart into two new conferences, as long as the new conference is playoff-eligible and has played together for more than 4 years (or 5, I forget) they would be eligible immediately for an autobid.

Any notion that the New Yankee would necessarily lose their autobid is faulty. As long as they've all been together, they should apply (and receive) one.

Note also that this might effectively eliminate these "Georgia State in the New Yankee" discussions. This makes it much more likely that Towson gets forced into the New Yankee to preserve the autobid.

Its only 2 years I believe, (hence why the Big South in eligible in 2010 after Stony Brook being in the league for 2 years).

And I've said it earlier - if the CAA does split into 2 leagues and adds Stony Brook, it would effectively steal the Big South's AQ. Even if it didn't, expansion from 20 to 22 or 24 teams is easy - no additional weeks needed. Just add an additional game or 2 to the opening round.

[Husky Alum]

I wouldn't ever want ever wish my school into a position where it was striving to increase its chances of post-season play by lessening the competitive level of play, allowing it to look for ways to further reduce (rather than increase) athletic spending at the expense of competition, etc. That's just me.

A bunch of NU fans were discussing this today. (Not to hijack the thread)

While we enjoyed the AE, we started every season knowing that if we had a competitive team in hoops, we'd finish at a certain level in the AE because the AE has always had a soft underbelly where you could win 75% of your games against, in a bad year.

In the CAA, we have no clue what's going to happen on a game to game basis, and that's made for a better team and a better conference, and better attendance.

[henfan]

I just want to mention that if the CAA breaks apart into two new conferences, as long as the new conference is playoff-eligible and has played together for more than 4 years (or 5, I forget) they would be eligible immediately for an autobid.

Any notion that the New Yankee would necessarily lose their autobid is faulty. As long as they've all been together, they should apply (and receive) one.

Note also that this might effectively eliminate these "Georgia State in the New Yankee" discussions. This makes it much more likely that Towson gets forced into the New Yankee to preserve the autobid.

The hypothetical of placing GSU in a split of northern division teams (assuming that the CAA would be administering 2 completely separate conferences) would not impact the fledgling's conference's playoff eligibility if GSU was the 7th member. Per 31.3.4.2 of the D-I Manual, only 6 members of a league would have had to have competed for the preceding 2 years.

A conference consisting of 6 or more members who had played together for more than 2 years would indeed be immediately eligible to receive an autobid upon approval. Though it's presumed this hypothetical league would be granted an autobid, it's not guaranteed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The hypothetical of placing GSU in a split of northern division teams (assuming that the CAA would be administering 2 completely separate conferences) would not impact the fledgling's conference's playoff eligibility if GSU was the 7th member. Per 31.3.4.2 of the D-I Manual, only 6 members of a league would have had to have competed for the preceding 2 years.

A conference consisting of 6 or more members who had played together for more than 2 years would indeed be immediately eligible to receive an autobid upon approval. Though it's presumed this hypothetical league would be granted an autobid, it's not guaranteed.

That's right, thanks for the correction. Of course, I think all that would be needed for the new conference to do is make sure their application for a playoff bid is signed at in the hands of the playoff subcommittee. It's a guarantee that six teams would have played together, making it even more of a formality than it already is.

[89Hen]

Even if it didn't, expansion from 20 to 22 or 24 teams is easy...
You meant to say "inevitable". This is why I was vehemently opposed to the expansion. It will be 24 and then 32 in the very near future. xcoolx

[DTSpider]

You meant to say "inevitable". This is why I was vehemently opposed to the expansion. It will be 24 and then 32 in the very near future. xcoolx

I'm still not sold on the need for 20 teams. Last year there weren't enough teams that deserved to be in the playoffs and the committee had to choose a team like Maine. Those arguments will on only to get worse with more teams. Next thing you know, we'll be arguing over which 5-6 team from the SoCon or CAA deserves to be the 32nd playoff team.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I'm still not sold on the need for 20 teams. Last year there weren't enough teams that deserved to be in the playoffs and the committee had to choose a team like Maine. Those arguments will on only to get worse with more teams. Next thing you know, we'll be arguing over which 5-6 team from the SoCon or CAA deserves to be the 32nd playoff team.

Seriously, won't further expansion of the playoffs be driven by conferences requesting an auto-bid? What are the potential for additional requests?

This new CAA II --for argument sake, I'll say pretty good.
Pioneer -- will they ever actually request an AQ? xconfusedx
Ivy -- seems to becoming more isolationist every year.
SWAC -- will the playoffs ever actually provide a revenue stream that will modify their stance?

Are there any other leagues out there who might request an AQ? Anything else that could form?

So, if the CAA II requests one, that would be 22 teams (an at large has to be added for each AQ). I haven't seen any signs of the Pioneer requesting one, but let's assume they do. Now, we'd be at 24 teams. There has been even less indication that the Ivy or SWAC want to participate.

So, my Scientific Wild Arse Guess (SWAG) is that we might get to 24 teams.

[89Hen]

Seriously, won't further expansion of the playoffs be driven by conferences requesting an auto-bid?
Not necessarily. There are quite a few conferences who would like an at-large to go with their one auto, or ones that want more than one at-large.

[danefan]

Not necessarily. There are quite a few conferences who would like an at-large to go with their one auto, or ones that want more than one at-large.

So you are saying that future expansion will be fueled by the request for more at-larges?

Do you think there are really any arguments to be made that there should be more a disproportionate amount of at-large bids?

[UAalum72]

Seriously, won't further expansion of the playoffs be driven by conferences requesting an auto-bid? What are the potential for additional requests?

This new CAA II --for argument sake, I'll say pretty good.
Pioneer -- will they ever actually request an AQ? xconfusedx
Ivy -- seems to becoming more isolationist every year.
SWAC -- will the playoffs ever actually provide a revenue stream that will modify their stance?

Are there any other leagues out there who might request an AQ? Anything else that could form?

So, if the CAA II requests one, that would be 22 teams (an at large has to be added for each AQ). I haven't seen any signs of the Pioneer requesting one, but let's assume they do. Now, we'd be at 24 teams. There has been even less indication that the Ivy or SWAC want to participate.

So, my Scientific Wild Arse Guess (SWAG) is that we might get to 24 teams.
Conceivably the Great West could get a sixth member, though with the Dakotas' transition it'll be 8 or 9 years before they'd be eligible.

[89Hen]

So you are saying that future expansion will be fueled by the request for more at-larges?
Yes.


Do you think there are really any arguments to be made that there should be more a disproportionate amount of at-large bids?
No, but that doesn't matter. I think it will be a case of, we already have the weekend saved, it would be easy to grant more access, why not?

[mainejeff]

Didn't say it hasn't been feasible for UNH to get to Chatty, but over the past couple of years I have expressed my opinion that having to play in any of the inferior league options that have been proposed would probably result in many one and done playoff runs. Having that 15/16 team all-sports league would've have ensured UNH (and Maine) continuing in CAA football. We wouldn't be an affiliate having to worry about the future or some inferior AE Football League or having to reduce scholarships and go NEC. Remaining in the CAA continues the status quo of a true Chatty capable team if you make the playoffs and a wonderful regular season slate. The proposed league options IMO did not offer either.

Oh, OK.......the way that you worded it made it sound like UNH could have achieved more in football over the past 7 or 8 years by being a member of that proposed 15/16 team league rather than the current set-up.......but I see now that you are referring to what may happen in the future.

[mainejeff]

A bunch of NU fans were discussing this today. (Not to hijack the thread)

While we enjoyed the AE, we started every season knowing that if we had a competitive team in hoops, we'd finish at a certain level in the AE because the AE has always had a soft underbelly where you could win 75% of your games against, in a bad year.

In the CAA, we have no clue what's going to happen on a game to game basis, and that's made for a better team and a better conference, and better attendance.

Good to see NU's attendance up 500/per game over last season to 1,900+.........doesn't that have more to do with NU winning than which league they are in???

[mainejeff]

I'm still not sold on the need for 20 teams. Last year there weren't enough teams that deserved to be in the playoffs and the committee had to choose a team like Maine. Those arguments will on only to get worse with more teams. Next thing you know, we'll be arguing over which 5-6 team from the SoCon or CAA deserves to be the 32nd playoff team.

Screw you. Maine deserved to be there.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Conceivably the Great West could get a sixth member, though with the Dakotas' transition it'll be 8 or 9 years before they'd be eligible.

I knew there was someone I forgot!! xoopsx xoopsx xoopsx xoopsx xbowx xbowx And I'd probably bet on them becoming eligible and request an AQ before the Pioneer League asks.

[Husky Alum]

Good to see NU's attendance up 500/per game over last season to 1,900+.........doesn't that have more to do with NU winning than which league they are in???

Winning has a little to do with it. But I think we have more and more students on campus than ever before, and with the new league, people are more familiar with the teams.

Also, in the CAA we're on TV more, and the students like the idea that we are on TV a lot so they can act ridiculous. 50% of NU's games will be shown on TV this year. NEVER would have happened in the AE.

NU-Delaware on ESPNU on Thursday - that won't happen in the AE.

[mainejeff]

Winning has a little to do with it. But I think we have more and more students on campus than ever before, and with the new league, people are more familiar with the teams.

Also, in the CAA we're on TV more, and the students like the idea that we are on TV a lot so they can act ridiculous. 50% of NU's games will be shown on TV this year. NEVER would have happened in the AE.

NU-Delaware on ESPNU on Thursday - that won't happen in the AE.

Boston U. at Hartford - Jan.31 on ESPNU.

AE has a bunch of games on NESN/MSG/etc.

Winning has A LOT to do with the attendance increase.

[Husky Alum]

Boston U. at Hartford - Jan.31 on ESPNU.

AE has a bunch of games on NESN/MSG/etc.

Winning has A LOT to do with the attendance increase.

We have a game of the week (or two) on ESPNU/2

CAA has over 100 games on NESN/MSG/MASN/CSN/ESPN2/ESPN@.

End of Discussion.

[mainejeff]

We have a game of the week (or two) on ESPNU/2

CAA has over 100 games on NESN/MSG/MASN/CSN/ESPN2/ESPN@.

End of Discussion.

Nope. Not the end of the discussion.

If you don't think that winning has increased your attendance figures from 1,400 per game vs. the same CAA teams in 2007/2008 to 1,900 per game vs. the same CAA teams in 2008/2009 then you are crazy. xnodx

The CAA has more games than AE on TV......and the CAA has 12 teams vs. 9 teams in America East.

[Maroon&White]

While we enjoyed the AE, we started every season knowing that if we had a competitive team in hoops, we'd finish at a certain level in the AE because the AE has always had a soft underbelly where you could win 75% of your games against, in a bad year.


Soft underbelly? Since the 1980 season, NU finished over .750 in conference 10 times. Your last season in 2004-2005 was the most recent, but before that it was 1992-1993. Maybe in the 80's NU knew they could win over 75% of their AE games, but certainly not recently. Maybe I fail to see your point, but it looks like you guys were that soft underbelly in the AE.


Winning has a little to do with it. But I think we have more and more students on campus than ever before, and with the new league, people are more familiar with the teams.

People in Boston are more familiar with George Mason, VCU, JMU, ODU, Georgia St, UNC Wilmington and W&M then they are BU, Vermont, Maine, UNH, Hartford, Stony Brook, UMBC, Albany and Binghamton? That is really sad.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Maybe if the PL can get on the ball and approve scholarships before this all happens Delaware and Villanova would consider the PL a viable option.

[89Hen]

Screw you. Maine deserved to be there.
Compared to the other teams left to select, yes, but not otherwise. Maine lost to every ranked team they played last year. xpeacex

[henfan]

Maybe if the PL can get on the ball and approve scholarships before this all happens Delaware and Villanova would consider the PL a viable option.

IMO, that ship sailed for UD & the PL in the mid-'80s. So much has changed since then- new rivalries developed with NE & VA schools, etc.- that I don't think the PL would again be even a remote option for UD. Nearly the entire UD athletic admin & coaching staff has turned over in the last 20 years. Few have the same type of fondness for long lost rivalries with Lehigh, Bucknell, Lafayette & Colgate.

This is way OT, but I'd suspect the PL's best chance for FB expansion, whether athletic aid is ever approved or not, revolves around the league's ability to attract 'all sport' members. You'd know better than me about that.

[mainejeff]

Compared to the other teams left to select, yes, but not otherwise. Maine lost to every ranked team they played last year. xpeacex

As did other playoff participants. xpeacex

[bluehenbillk]

Part of the article for the R-TD, sounds like for the 30-some pages of this thread on realignment, all 14 teams seem fairly happy to be part of the CAA:

"We really didn't come up with any firm conclusions but we kind of narrowed some things down and appointed a little subcommittee to keep working on stuff over the winter. Target it toward our annual meeting in June."

The league's annual meeting will be June 1-5 in Hilton Head, S.C., and some final decisions will likely be made at that time regarding scheduling and whether the CAA will continue to be split into two divisions.

Yeager said the athletic directors aired a number of questions. "Is 14 teams too big? What are the alternatives? What are the pros and cons? We're looking at stretching from Orono, Maine to Atlanta, so we had a lot of discussion about travel."

Yeager indicated that all of the members are interested in remaining with the CAA, rather than perhaps some of them leaving to join other leagues that might fit better geographically.

"I think we came out feeling that, collectively, we're stronger as one," Yeager said. "We talked about whether certain schools would be better served by striking out and trying to do something else. That's when we came back with the idea of being committed to working through where we are.

"As a league, we're in a very good place and we want to keep that momentum going so we can play the kind of national role we've been playing."

Since taking over administration of the league from the Atlantic 10 Conference two years ago, the CAA has sent five teams to the Football Championship Subdivision playoffs each season. The league also produced this year's FCS national champion (Richmond) and had the runner-up (Delaware) in 2007

[spdram]

It may require some tweaking, but if it ain't broke don't fix it. That is unless you work for the government.xwhistlex

[DFW HOYA]

This is way OT, but I'd suspect the PL's best chance for FB expansion, whether athletic aid is ever approved or not, revolves around the league's ability to attract 'all sport' members. You'd know better than me about that.

The reason why UR, Nova, or W&M still get mentioned is that it appears there are none left that the PL can go after.

[bostonspider]

Well the only way I see UR, W&M and VU in the PL as football associates, is if the CAA does somehow decide to "go big time" in football. If JMU, UD, ODU and GSU all move up to FBS, then maybe the three CAA South schools would likely be looking for a new more academic smaller school based football league. So either the PL steps up, or maybe a reconstituted SoCon with Elon, Samford, Furman, Wofford, The Citadel, VMI and maybe Davidson would look good to UR and W&M.

[89Hen]

As did other playoff participants. xpeacex
Read my comment again please.

[jmufan999]

Ask Elon fans how they feel about their third-placed team losing out on the playoffs to the fifth (arguably sixth) placed team in the fourteen team CAA.

it doesn't matter if the committee "sees" the CAA as being one or two conferences... makes no difference. they're told to find the best 8 at-large teams, and for the past 2 years, it just so happens that 4 of them are from the CAA. some years, maybe the BSC will get more, or the SoCon, just happened to be the CAA the past 2 years.

also, Elon had a win-and-in game at the end of the year, and they got absolutely DEMOLISHED by Liberty, a non-playoff team. they also had chances for quality wins against Richmond, Wofford, and App State, and lost all three.

vs: UR = Loss, 10-28
vs: WC = Loss, 20-55
at: ASU = Loss, 16-24
at: Liberty = Loss, 3-26

they were outscored 49-133 against 3 playoff teams and one non-playoff team. i'm not saying maine deserved the bid, but Liberty ABSOLUTELY has more of an argument than Elon. for the record, i didn't think W&M was a playoff caliber team either, but there are always going to be questions about the "last team in". i think Liberty, Elon, W&M, and Maine were all likely to lose in the first round. that's an opinion, obviously it can't be proven or disproven. but the "last team in" is just that... the last team in, there are going to be arguments about it every year.

[spdram]

well put 999, I think you hit the nail on the head as far as Elon was concerned. Liberty just did not play the schedule some of the other teams played, so it came down to Maine and W&M. I cannot debate the committees final decision because it was that close, but I probably would have come down on the side of W&M.

[mainejeff]

well put 999, I think you hit the nail on the head as far as Elon was concerned. Liberty just did not play the schedule some of the other teams played, so it came down to Maine and W&M. I cannot debate the committees final decision because it was that close, but I probably would have come down on the side of W&M.

What a surprise! xrolleyesx

I wonder what side JMU fans come down on? Didn't they blow out W&M?

[mcveyrl]

What a surprise! xrolleyesx

I wonder what side JMU fans come down on? Didn't they blow out W&M?

I come down on the side of W&M, but that's because of common opponent record. W&M was 4-2 and Maine was 3-3. I think what strengthens that argument is that the difference was against UNH, a playoff team. I also think that the other games were a wash.

Regardless, I've got no problem with Maine getting in. I don't know that W&M would have given a better effort against UNI.

[jmufan999]

i tried to make it to the end of this thread, i really did. but now i'm on page 32, and i'm just tired.

look. guys. and i'm writing specifically to non-CAA fans. splitting the CAA into 2 divisions will NOT help you in any way. AT ALL. none. zero. if they did this, you all seem to think that the remaining OOC games will be filled up with games against tough SoCon teams, for instance. which could happen. but what is to stop them from scheduling NO FBS teams and 1 D-II team every year? they could still get the "required" number of D-I wins, have a great record, and what's to say the two 7-team divisions wouldn't get EVEN MORE bids??? could have 3 from each conference! that would obviously be much worse for you. then it's POSSIBLE that the SoCon would move down from the 2nd best conference to the 3rd. that's bad for your recruiting.

you might want to consider the ramifications of what you're arguing about before you get TOO adamant about it.

[JMU DJ]

i tried to make it to the end of this thread, i really did. but now i'm on page 32, and i'm just tired.



Haha, I took it in segments... took me 2-3 days...


... Word out there is that the CAA is staying together as 14 teams anyway.

http://www.gazettenet.com/node/218865


Don't know if that's an official conformation, but that would just leave the question of how to deal with all of the teams.

[Old Cage]

This expands Matt Vatour's story:

http://www.gazettenet.com/2009/01/15/caa-will-remain-one-conference