LFN: Richmond Goes From A Near-Patriot "Downgrade" to National Championship

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/12/richmond-goes-from-near-patriot.html

Could it have been the Patriot League's first-ever national champion? We'll never really know now.

[paward]

Great article. I am not sure how close we came to joining the Patriot League. Additionally not sure if we were in the PL we would have won. But I am sure of this. If the PL wants to be competitive they will have to offer full scholies. If they are fine where they are..........well not sure about that either.

[ngineer]

Excellent article, LFN. Yes, it goes to show that one can have excellent academics and athletics, with scholarships.

[Go...gate]

You should e-mail that article to Femovich and the PL Presidents.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Maybe I will xsmiley_wix

[Franks Tanks]

Maybe I will xsmiley_wix

Please do. I plan on composing a letter to the Lafayette Pres in the near future on the exact same topic. A school of similar size and academic stature just won it all. This is also a team we beat twice in a row in 04 and 05. This is somthing that we need to make the powers that be think about and comment on.

[bostonspider]

Great set of articles from the Richmond Times Dispatch about the season and National Championship

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/rich/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/a-fballTDpullout122108.pdf

[ngineer]

Please do. I plan on composing a letter to the Lafayette Pres in the near future on the exact same topic. A school of similar size and academic stature just won it all. This is also a team we beat twice in a row in 04 and 05. This is somthing that we need to make the powers that be think about and comment on.

Good idea. I will do the same...In the words of Jefferson Starship: "Go Ask Alice....";)

[LUHawker]

Please do. I plan on composing a letter to the Lafayette Pres in the near future on the exact same topic. A school of similar size and academic stature just won it all. This is also a team we beat twice in a row in 04 and 05. This is somthing that we need to make the powers that be think about and comment on.

Not only does Richmond have similar size and academics to Lafayette (as well as to most of the PL), LC and LU, at a minimum, have MUCh better facilities and stronger fan support.

[Franks Tanks]

Not only does Richmond have similar size and academics to Lafayette (as well as to most of the PL), LC and LU, at a minimum, have MUCh better facilities and stronger fan support.


Its a crying shame is it not. Richmond is building a nice new stadium so they have that going for them, but point taken.

[bostonspider]

Well not only does UR have a new stadium under construction, but UR also would have actually been 3rd in attendance in the PL this year behind LC and HC. Richmond averaged 8,175 fans per game this season. I hope that the numbers will shoot up next year too.

2008 Patriot League Attendance
1. LAFAYETTE - 9,766 avg.
2. Holy Cross - 8,431 avg.
3. Lehigh - 7, 542 avg.
4. Colgate - 5,473 avg.
5. Fordham - 4,077 avg.
6. Bucknell - 2,438 avg.
7. Georgetown - 2,112 avg.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well not only does UR have a new stadium under construction, but UR also would have actually been 3rd in attendance in the PL this year behind LC and HC. Richmond averaged 8,175 fans per game this season. I hope that the numbers will shoot up next year too.

2008 Patriot League Attendance
1. LAFAYETTE - 9,766 avg.
2. Holy Cross - 8,431 avg.
3. Lehigh - 7, 542 avg.
4. Colgate - 5,473 avg.
5. Fordham - 4,077 avg.
6. Bucknell - 2,438 avg.
7. Georgetown - 2,112 avg.

Just think what these numbers might have been next year with Richmond and Villanova, fresh off a championship and quarterfinal run respectively, under the banner of the Patriot League. It's the sort of thing that would spur turnout around the league - kind of like when Bucknell beat Kansas in men's basketball. Nothing boosts attendance like success.

[LUHawker]

Well not only does UR have a new stadium under construction, but UR also would have actually been 3rd in attendance in the PL this year behind LC and HC. Richmond averaged 8,175 fans per game this season. I hope that the numbers will shoot up next year too.

2008 Patriot League Attendance
1. LAFAYETTE - 9,766 avg.
2. Holy Cross - 8,431 avg.
3. Lehigh - 7, 542 avg.
4. Colgate - 5,473 avg.
5. Fordham - 4,077 avg.
6. Bucknell - 2,438 avg.
7. Georgetown - 2,112 avg.

This year's Lehigh attendance was an anamoly. Most years, that average is 10-12k. Very poor weather and a lackluster home slate kept a lid on attendance this year. I expect LU to be tops again next year and probably over 10k. Encouragingly, LC and HC saw a nice boost in attendance this year.

[MacThor]

Well not only does UR have a new stadium under construction, but UR also would have actually been 3rd in attendance in the PL this year behind LC and HC. Richmond averaged 8,175 fans per game this season. I hope that the numbers will shoot up next year too.


The new stadium is going to be sweeeeeeeeet. I can tell you that Coach London is doing everything he can to build a consistent contending program with top-notch on campus facilities. When he took the job he immediately reached out to football alumni and started a separate fund just to improve the football program.........named, get this......the Champions fund. A harbinger?

I think attendance will be better next year, especially in the student section, but I don't know how much this town (the non-alumni 99.9%) will flock to games. I live in a neighborhood walking distance from UR Stadium and I kept hearing "I didn't realize UR was that good." The worst - I was at a party Saturday night and I think I was the only person there who even knew the Spiders were national champions.

[Tim James]

VMI would be a great addition and a travel partner for Richmond. A ten team Patriot League with Villanova, Richmond, and VMI. Somebody needs to make it happen. ;)

[ngineer]

Nothing will happen unless the PL goes to scholarships.

[colorless raider]

Maybe I will xsmiley_wix

Yes, I agree send the article to the PL presidents. We HAVE to turn up the heat and get schollies.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes, I agree send the article to the PL presidents. We HAVE to turn up the heat and get schollies.

Outside of this board, is there much if any likelihood of this happening anytime soon? If the declining endowments haven't put this on the presidential back burner, I suspect one call from the Ivy group whispering how this might affect future schedules with the four schools which capture the clear majority of all Ivy-PL games (Leh, Laf, Colgate, HC) would be enough for this to be tabled again.

[ngineer]

Outside of this board, is there much if any likelihood of this happening anytime soon? If the declining endowments haven't put this on the presidential back burner, I suspect one call from the Ivy group whispering how this might affect future schedules with the four schools which capture the clear majority of all Ivy-PL games (Leh, Laf, Colgate, HC) would be enough for this to be tabled again.

Endowments should be irrelevant. We're not looking for more money, just the ability to use it without being restricted to the grant-in-aid, need-based formulas. Lehigh supposedly has 53-55 equivalencies. That should be sufficient if we can go after some top notch students that before were 'out of bounds'.

[DFW HOYA]

Lehigh supposedly has 53-55 equivalencies. That should be sufficient if we can go after some top notch students that before were 'out of bounds'.

Lehigh, Colgate, HC, Fordham, and Lafayette all appears to have 50 or more with Bucknell not far behind.

That's six, anyway.

[colorless raider]

Outside of this board, is there much if any likelihood of this happening anytime soon? If the declining endowments haven't put this on the presidential back burner, I suspect one call from the Ivy group whispering how this might affect future schedules with the four schools which capture the clear majority of all Ivy-PL games (Leh, Laf, Colgate, HC) would be enough for this to be tabled again.

Who are the Ivies going to play if not the Patriots. If they want to play Bryant and Stoney Brook then be my guest.xwhistlex

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Who are the Ivies going to play if not the Patriots. If they want to play Bryant and Stoney Brook then be my guest.xwhistlex

How about any of the following:

Dartmouth-Maine
Dartmouth-UMass
Harvard-UMass
Harvard-UNH
Harvard-Northeastern
Brown-Northeastern
Brown-UNH
Yale-UNH
Yale-CCSU
Yale-Sacred Heart
Columbia-Hofstra
Columbia-Stony Brook
Columbia-Wagner
Cornell-Albany

and on and on.................

Harvard, Yale, Brown and Dartmouth actually play many other schools in New England in most other sports. Why is it that they don't have the same philosophy when it comes to football?

[Franks Tanks]

How about any of the following:

Dartmouth-Maine
Dartmouth-UMass
Harvard-UMass
Harvard-UNH
Harvard-Northeastern
Brown-Northeastern
Brown-UNH
Yale-UNH
Yale-CCSU
Yale-Sacred Heart
Columbia-Hofstra
Columbia-Stony Brook
Columbia-Wagner
Cornell-Albany

and on and on.................

Harvard, Yale, Brown and Dartmouth actually play many other schools in New England in most other sports. Why is it that they don't have the same philosophy when it comes to football?


Dont hold your breath for the day that Yale plays CCSU or Sacred Heart on football. Also if the Ivies dont like what the Patriot League may do then too freaking bad. Old rivalries like Lafayette-Penn and Colgate-Cornell will continue, and other games will still occur as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dont hold your breath for the day that Yale plays CCSU or Sacred Heart on football. Also if the Ivies dont like what the Patriot League may do then too freaking bad. Old rivalries like Lafayette-Penn and Colgate-Cornell will continue, and other games will still occur as well.

Given what Colgate gives up to play this game (a 3-for-1? Yeesh...), I'm not sure that will be necessary to keep up.

[Go...gate]

Given what Colgate gives up to play this game (a 3-for-1? Yeesh...), I'm not sure that will be necessary to keep up.

WTH is the big deal? Colgate has many all-time rivalries like that. Syracuse never played at Colgate in nearly 100 years. Still would rather play Cornell on the road than Sacred Heart (or its equivalent) home-and-home.

[DFW HOYA]

Old rivalries like Lafayette-Penn and Colgate-Cornell will continue, and other games will still occur as well.

With emphasis on "old".

Here are the cumulative numbers of Ivy games by school over the next two seasons:

Lafayette: 9
Holy Cross: 8
Colgate: 6
Lehigh: 5
Bucknell: 3
Fordham: 3
Georgetown: 2

[OLPOP]

I'm pretty sure Fordham has Columbia and Cornell in '09, and Columbia and Yale in '10.

[Go...gate]

With emphasis on "old".

Here are the cumulative numbers of Ivy games by school over the next two seasons:

Lafayette: 9
Holy Cross: 8
Colgate: 6
Lehigh: 5
Bucknell: 3
Fordham: 3
Georgetown: 2

From what has been posted on the Colgate board in the past year or so, the Ivies are increasingly reluctant to play us anymore, even if we go to their place. Columbia canceled its home half of a home-and-home and Penn and Harvard won't play us under any circumstances. Brown has not played use since 1996. Dartmouth has advised that they will not renew us after 2011. Princeton, however, is happy to play us home-and-home for the forseeable future, Yale just reached agreement with us on a home-and-home in 2013 and 2014, and Cornell will continue in a 2 (or 3) for 1 series. So it may be that the Ivies' long-standing relationship with Colgate as its most-played non-conference opponent, will go by the boards. If so, this is sad.

[Franks Tanks]

From what has been posted on the Colgate board in the past year or so, the Ivies are increasingly reluctant to play us anymore, even if we go to their place. Columbia canceled its home half of a home-and-home and Penn and Harvard won't play us under any circumstances. Brown has not played use since 1996. Dartmouth has advised that they will not renew us after 2011. Princeton, however, is happy to play us home-and-home for the forseeable future, Yale just reached agreement with us on a home-and-home in 2013 and 2014, and Cornell will continue in a 2 (or 3) for 1 series. So it may be that the Ivies' long-standing relationship with Colgate as its most-played non-conference opponent, will go by the boards. If so, this is sad.


Why is that? I know the arguement has been made that the Ivies wont schedule Colgate because they dont want to lose but I dont think that is the whole story. Many Ivies readily scheduled Lehigh even when they were at the peak of their power for example. I personally think we have too many Ivy games. I would like us to do everything possible to keep games with out traditional rivals Penn, Princeton, and Columbia and then mix in other teams from the CAA or SoCon and a few of the other Ivies when possibe. Also we play at Penn, Yale and Harvard next year and have Columbia at home.

[spdram]

I understand the desire to not leave old rivalry games, but if the thought is non-scholie football cost less have your AD contact the Richmond AD. Our studies showed it was not a money savings -- one of the arguments used against going to the PL. Besides if you lose the gaes eith the Ivies, so be it, you will pick up others and likely give a broader name recognition to your school. You have to broaden you recruiting base to find athletes that can play at a high level AND want a degree but they are out there.

[Franks Tanks]

I understand the desire to not leave old rivalry games, but if the thought is non-scholie football cost less have your AD contact the Richmond AD. Our studies showed it was not a money savings -- one of the arguments used against going to the PL. Besides if you lose the gaes eith the Ivies, so be it, you will pick up others and likely give a broader name recognition to your school. You have to broaden you recruiting base to find athletes that can play at a high level AND want a degree but they are out there.

The PL on average spends about as much on FB as the CAA. The need based merit -aid stance has never been a money issue- always an ideological one.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL on average spends about as much on FB as the CAA. The need based merit -aid stance has never been a money issue- always an ideological one.

On average, but it's still a money issue at Bucknell and esp. at Georgetown.

[TheValleyRaider]

From what has been posted on the Colgate board in the past year or so, the Ivies are increasingly reluctant to play us anymore, even if we go to their place. Columbia canceled its home half of a home-and-home and Penn and Harvard won't play us under any circumstances. Brown has not played use since 1996. Dartmouth has advised that they will not renew us after 2011. Princeton, however, is happy to play us home-and-home for the forseeable future, Yale just reached agreement with us on a home-and-home in 2013 and 2014, and Cornell will continue in a 2 (or 3) for 1 series. So it may be that the Ivies' long-standing relationship with Colgate as its most-played non-conference opponent, will go by the boards. If so, this is sad.

Really?

The Future Schedules link on the athletics site has Cornell in Hamilton for 2009 and 2011. It almost looked as if that might actually become a real home-and-home (though I wouldn't put it past the Red to try and continue with multiple games in Ithaca)

Real shame about Dartmouth though, and I wouldn't mind seeing more variety in our Ivy opponents through the years. Getting Yale again will be nice

[Lehigh Football Nation]

On a side note, who in H-e-double-hockey-sticks will Dartmouth be willing to play if it's not Colgate? Bryant? CCSU? A D-III? There are not a lot of schools around to play, and if they drop UNH as well I don't see who they will schedule.

Is Dartmouth thinking about dropping to D-III? It's a question that ought to be asked, given these developments.

[Seawolf97]

On a side note, who in H-e-double-hockey-sticks will Dartmouth be willing to play if it's not Colgate? Bryant? CCSU? A D-III? There are not a lot of schools around to play, and if they drop UNH as well I don't see who they will schedule.

Is Dartmouth thinking about dropping to D-III? It's a question that ought to be asked, given these developments.

They have 4 schools in the NYC Metro Area they could schedule. StonyBrook, Hofstra, Fordham and Wagner. We already have a 4 year contract with Brown which is in its 2nd year in 2009. And StonyBrook plays Dartmouth in basketball just about every season.

[aceinthehole]

Dont hold your breath for the day that Yale plays CCSU or Sacred Heart on football. Also if the Ivies dont like what the Patriot League may do then too freaking bad. Old rivalries like Lafayette-Penn and Colgate-Cornell will continue, and other games will still occur as well.

Exactly!!! Yale isn't going to play CCSU or SHU ever.

[aceinthehole]

On a side note, who in H-e-double-hockey-sticks will Dartmouth be willing to play if it's not Colgate? Bryant? CCSU? A D-III? There are not a lot of schools around to play, and if they drop UNH as well I don't see who they will schedule.

Is Dartmouth thinking about dropping to D-III? It's a question that ought to be asked, given these developments.

I wouldn't mind an Ivy opponent for CCSU. And since we have no shot at the H-Y-P crowd, I'd take a game with Dartmouth or Columbia. But I doubt you'll see that because of the odds they lose to a lowly little state school.

I could see some other NEC teams like Sacred Heart, St. Francis, or Bryant on the schedule in future years.

[Franks Tanks]

Exactly!!! Yale isn't going to play CCSU or SHU ever.

No reason why Yale shouldnt play CCSU, just dont see them doing so. Even if the PL goes to 63 scholly's some day the Ivy/Patriot matchups will still be prominent. Also dont forget many kids will now be able to attend some of the Ivies for free given their parents income, so I dont think the competitive balance will drastically shift in favor of the PL even with scholarships.

[Ruler]

I am pretty sure Albany plays Yale in 2010. Not sure if there is a return game beyond 2010. I would love for UA to have Dartmouth and Columbia on the schedule....2 more OOC wins.

[DFW HOYA]

No reason why Yale shouldnt play CCSU, just dont see them doing so. Even if the PL goes to 63 scholly's some day the Ivy/Patriot matchups will still be prominent.

Also bear in mind that Georgetown and Bucknell may never make it to 63, so they will remain competitive with Ivy schools even if Colgate and Leh/Laf pass them by.

[Franks Tanks]

Also bear in mind that Georgetown and Bucknell may never make it to 63, so they will remain competitive with Ivy schools even if Colgate and Leh/Laf pass them by.

We will still have the academic component to deal with. Even with full or nearly full scholly load the PL will not necessarily have a team in the championship game every year-- just increase our overall competiveness. Bucknell and Georgetown should still be able to compete reasonably well still. It wasnt all that long ago that Bucknell and Tim Gadd were among the league favorites every year and G-town was scaring the crap out of the other league coaches regarding what they may become.

[DFW HOYA]

Bucknell and Georgetown should still be able to compete reasonably well still. It wasnt all that long ago that ... G-town was scaring the crap out of the other league coaches regarding what they may become.

When was that? xlolx

Georgetown University and the PL leadership have both put Hoya football in a difficult position. The highest AI, the lowest budget, no facilities, and the inability to get Georgetown on regional schedules doesn't sell to a lot of recruits, and the results show it. "Hey, we'll be playing Davidson and Old Dominion" doesn't ring like "We'll be playing Villanova and Harvard." Andy Talley would sooner schedule Bryant than Georgetown.

[Franks Tanks]

When was that? xlolx

Honestly when I played Frank Taviani told us he thought Georgetown would be a power in the PL in years to come. He basically said we need to watch out for these guys. He felt the location, name, and reputation of the school would allow for some great recruits. A variety of factors that dont need to be rehashed have not allowed that to occur. Also the Bucknell teams of the late 90's were quite talented. They won the PL in 1996 and finished 10-1 in 97. They had a lot of hard nosed smart players. They played a bit like Colgate does -- they ran the ball well and controlled the FB and played good D. They were in title contention several times during that time, but as Tom Gadd got sick the talent in Lewisburg began to drop off and hasnt quite recovered.

[ngineer]

Honestly when I played Frank Taviani told us he thought Georgetown would be a power in the PL in years to come. He basically said we need to watch out for these guys. He felt the location, name, and reputation of the school would allow for some great recruits. A variety of factors that dont need to be rehashed have not allowed that to occur. Also the Bucknell teams of the late 90's were quite talented. They won the PL in 1996 and finished 10-1 in 97. They had a lot of hard nosed smart players. They played a bit like Colgate does -- they ran the ball well and controlled the FB and played good D. They were in title contention several times during that time, but as Tom Gadd got sick the talent in Lewisburg began to drop off and hasnt quite recovered.

FT is correct...(hate to say that about a Leopard, ;) ), but Lembo told me at a practice about 5 years ago that he saw his alma mater as a 'sleeping giant' for the same reasons Tavani cited. The ability is there, the question is the 'will'...Also, ditto for Bucknell. Gadd had the program sailing high and unfortunately took ill and died. It's been a struggle for Landis to get the program back to where it was, but they are making slow progress. Lack of student support in Lewisburg, though is mindboggling. Nice stadium right on campus, beautiful setting..As Chris Schenkel used to say, "What better way to spend an autumn afternoon?"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

G'Town and Bucknell have been the lower echelon of the Patriot League for some time now, despite the Bison's occasional threat to move into title contention. Some of it seems to be structural (especially in G'Town's case, with a crushing AI) - but most of it seems to come down to the institutions themselves not putting enough resources, not working within the AI rules the way they could, etc.

Veering back on topic, some in Richmond seemed to want to go to the Patriot League to cut costs - which means they could very well have ended up like G'Town or Bucknell. But they elected to use the system in place in the CAA and instead put more resource in getting a new stadium (very soon) and building the program. Their result was a national championship.

[DFW HOYA]

Veering back on topic, some in Richmond seemed to want to go to the Patriot League to cut costs - which means they could very well have ended up like G'Town or Bucknell. But they elected to use the system in place in the CAA and instead put more resource in getting a new stadium (very soon) and building the program. Their result was a national championship.

Do you think that Richmond's success will now make it even less likely the PL can attract new members, given the stalemate on scholarship aid?

The lesson from Richmond may become, rightly or wrongly, "if we had joined the PL, we wouldn't have been national champions."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Do you think that Richmond's success will now make it even less likely the PL can attract new members, given the stalemate on scholarship aid?

The lesson from Richmond may become, rightly or wrongly, "if we had joined the PL, we wouldn't have been national champions."

The short answer is that it's quite possible that this becomes the lesson if the PL presidents' simply think that the status quo is fine going forward. The problem isn't that Richmond's success makes it a lot less likely the PL can attract new members - it was always a tough sell. What it does do is bust the myth that private schools can't win national championships at the FCS level. If private schools were thinking about going to the PL since private schools "couldn't compete" with the Appalachian State's, Delaware's, Montana's and UMass' of the world, they were proven wrong.

Given this, how could a school then move to the PL without it being considered a "downgrade"? Did any serious candidate think of joining the PL because it gave them a better chance at a national championship? Or *a* chance?

No team in the Patriot League could compete with Richmond on the field- and, importantly, Villanova - last year. The evidence is in the form of three double-digit losses to both schools by PL teams. In two of those games the starters were out midway through the third quarter.

Sometime last year I made a blog posting on how the Patriot League should define itself (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/05/patriot-league-call-to-action.html):


What's needed is some vision of what the Patriot League will be in the future.

Academically, the Patriot League is already defined in books like The Last Amateurs. It's on the athletic side where the Patriot League needs definition. What are we? What sort of league will be be in 2018?

What we need is something like this:

"Patriot League athletics defines the student athlete that wants to win Division I championships and excel in the classroom and in life. Patriot League schools are seeking out the best. The best leaders of tomorrow. The best in their academic disciplines. The hardest workers. The toughest competitors. And people who want to be the best in sports and in the classroom."

...

But the stigma that needs to be excised is that Patriot League teams don't care about championships. Until the Patriot League presidents articulate that they care about competing for NCAA championships - without compromising on academics, of course - there will always be that hesitation for an interested school in joining the Patriot league "club". A harder sell to fans.

If the league makes a charter like this one, doesn't that put the emphasis on championships and competing for them rather than extreme cost-containment and hobnobbing with the Ivy League? Reading over last year's PL blog postings like the one I quote above, unfortunately, make for sobering reading now. Here's another gem (http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/04/place-for-patriot-league-athletics.html):


With the NEC rumored to be thinking about expanding from 30 to 45 scholarships starting with the class of 2013, very soon the debate might shift from "scholarships or not?" to "how do we keep up with the Ivy League and the NEC?" I really hope that is not the case.

[henfan]

The problem isn't that Richmond's success makes it a lot less likely the PL can attract new members - it was always a tough sell. What it does do is bust the myth that private schools can't win national championships at the FCS level. If private schools were thinking about going to the PL since private schools "couldn't compete" with the Appalachian State's, Delaware's, Montana's and UMass' of the world, they were proven wrong.

Furman already busted any myth that would have existed 20 years back. Of course, Colgate was one win away from doing it just 5 years ago.

There are much more important considerations to weigh for any private school considering the PL than whether or not their FB team can or will compete for a NC.

[BDKJMU]

Well not only does UR have a new stadium under construction, but UR also would have actually been 3rd in attendance in the PL this year behind LC and HC. Richmond averaged 8,175 fans per game this season. I hope that the numbers will shoot up next year too.

2008 Patriot League Attendance
1. LAFAYETTE - 9,766 avg.
2. Holy Cross - 8,431 avg.
3. Lehigh - 7, 542 avg.
4. Colgate - 5,473 avg.
5. Fordham - 4,077 avg.
6. Bucknell - 2,438 avg.
7. Georgetown - 2,112 avg.

UR didn't avg 8175 per home game this season. Break out a calculator. Attendance for the 08' home UR games:
1. Towson: 5525
2. Maine: 8012
3. JMU: 16151
4. Gtown: 5168
5. UD: 6173
6. EKU: 2994

Thats 7,337. Not sure where you got 8175. Take out the JMU game, which was about 1/2 JMU fans, and UR's attendance avg was 5,574.
http://richmondspiders.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2008-2009/teamstat.html
09' there will be no JMU @ UR. UR's 3 highest attended games the last 5 seasons:
04' JMU @ UR
06' JMU @ UR
08' JMU @ UR
Those were the only UR games in the last 5 seasons to break 10k.

The biggest attended home game for UR 09' will likely be W&M @ UR:
05' W&M @ UR: 8,960
07' W&M @ UR: 7,652.
08' UR @ W&M: 9,405
http://richmondspiders.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/rich-m-footbl-archive.html

I highly doubt that game would exceed 10k, which would be a huge drop from what 08' JMU @ UR was. Sure, UR coming off an NC will avg more in their other 4 regular season home games than they did last season, but it won't be enough to offset the loss from not hosting JMU. Highly likely UR will avg less than they did last season, less than 7k.

[BDKJMU]

UR's new stadium (be it a beautiful stadium) will have a capacity from what I've read of only 8700, which will take it from the 2nd largest stadium in the CAA to by far the smallest stadium in the CAA South (smallest now is Towson at 11,198), and 4th smallest overall. Current CAA stadium capacity by team:
UD: 22,000
UR: 21,319 (new 2010 8,700)
UMass: 17,000
JMU: 15,500 (new 2012 will be approx 24k)
Hofstra: 13,000
W&M: 12,259
Villanova: 12,000
Towson: 11,198
Maine: 10,000
Northeastern: 7k
URI: 6555
UNH: 6500 (but have had over 10k with SRO)
http://www.caasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=48484&SPID=4660&DB_OEM_ID=8500&ATCLID=1505687

[bostonspider]

I did not include the playoff game as those attendance numbers tend to be suspect, since the money is given to the NCAA's. So I just used regular season games, which is what the PL was counting anyways and what the NCAA bases their yearly attendance numbers on. UR also hosts VMI in 2009, which tends to be a larger crowd, 9,853 in 2005 and 10,560 in 2006. There are still questions as to what the actual capacity of First Market will be. I am not sure if the 8,700 is just the new brick stands along the sidelines. I know UR is planning to have temporary bleacher seats inside the track at the north endzone. If needed, maybe similar bleachers will be added to the south endzone.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/rich/graphics/aerialwithendzonestands-500.jpg

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/rich/graphics/final-plan-copy-reduced-500.jpg

[Go...gate]

It's nice to have a big stadium, but you have to fill it to pay for it. Sounds like about 10,000 - 12,500 works for most of us.

[BDKJMU]

I did not include the playoff game as those attendance numbers tend to be suspect, since the money is given to the NCAA's. So I just used regular season games, which is what the PL was counting anyways and what the NCAA bases their yearly attendance numbers on. UR also hosts VMI in 2009, which tends to be a larger crowd, 9,853 in 2005 and 10,560 in 2006. There are still questions as to what the actual capacity of First Market will be. I am not sure if the 8,700 is just the new brick stands along the sidelines. I know UR is planning to have temporary bleacher seats inside the track at the north endzone. If needed, maybe similar bleachers will be added to the south endzone.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/rich/graphics/aerialwithendzonestands-500.jpg

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/rich/graphics/final-plan-copy-reduced-500.jpg

As far as the playoff #s being suspect, I've heard that arguement before, and I think its baloney. I've never seen any concrete evidence supporting these claims. JMU's reported #s seemed to be right on- I was at all 3 playoff games.

As far as the NCAA basing their yearly attendance #s on, PLAYOFF GAMES ARE INCLUDED.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2007/Internet/attendance/IAA_ATTENDANCE.pdf
Its fine to give attendance figures just for regular season- just state that to keep out any confusion.

I stand corrected on UR's 3 biggest attendance games the last 5 seasons being all JMU and those 3 being the only to go over 10k. Make that 3 of 4 and 4:
08' JMU @ UR
06' JMU @ UR
06' VMI @ UR (10,560)
04 JMU @ UR (10,235)

I was looking at 08' and the obvious ones from 04'-07' (JMU, W&M, UD).

So go with your avg attendance playoffs excluded of of 8175 instead of the 7337. Like I said, I don't think UR will hit the lower #, much less likely the higher #.

I know why UR is going with a smaller stadium. In terms of 5-6k or more tickets needed that would fall only once every 2 years with JMU. Then there will only be 1-2 k JMU fans who will be able to get tickets instead of 7-8. You won't have to worry about UR's stadium being JMU's home away from home anymore! xsmiley_wix

[BDKJMU]

Seriously though, if its 8700 permanent seating, UR could conceivably add up to 3k temp bleachers in one endzone (a la JMU) or 6k if both endzones. I doubt that UR would add more than a couple k in temp endzone bleachers since:
1. Could detract from the aesthetics.
2. Would be needed but only once every 2 years (and again, why would UR care if several thousand JMU fans can't get tickets?)
3. Would the city of Richmond balk at several thousand in temp endzone seating?

[bostonspider]

Well I think that the Championship will add more attendance than you might think. I think the more casual UR fan will be more likely to get out to see a game next fall following the National Title. That plus playing two of our home games versus traditional rivals, and hopefully two of the others on homecoming and parents weekend could lead to better attendance in general. Maybe I will be proven wrong, but I hope they are able to increase attendance even with the JMU game in Harrisonburg.

I think that UR is planning on having 2,000 in the North Endzone Seats, that will be "semi-permanent".

[SFspidur]

The 8700 number includes the one end-zone temporary seating. Our special use permit with the city is for 8700. If we want more seating than that, it's back to the city (and thus the neighbors) we go...that's a multi-month process, not something we can do on short notice if we sense an opportunity for a big crowd. And the neighbors would be less-than-happy if we wanted to exceed the 8700 number soon after the stadium opens...it was difficult enough to get them onboard the first time around, and people don't like feeling like they've been subjected to a bait-and-switch.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

As far as the playoff #s being suspect, I've heard that arguement before, and I think its baloney. I've never seen any concrete evidence supporting these claims. JMU's reported #s seemed to be right on- I was at all 3 playoff games.

As far as the NCAA basing their yearly attendance #s on, PLAYOFF GAMES ARE INCLUDED.
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2007/Internet/attendance/IAA_ATTENDANCE.pdf
Its fine to give attendance figures just for regular season- just state that to keep out any confusion.

I stand corrected on UR's 3 biggest attendance games the last 5 seasons being all JMU and those 3 being the only to go over 10k. Make that 3 of 4 and 4:
08' JMU @ UR
06' JMU @ UR
06' VMI @ UR (10,560)
04 JMU @ UR (10,235)

I was looking at 08' and the obvious ones from 04'-07' (JMU, W&M, UD).

So go with your avg attendance playoffs excluded of of 8175 instead of the 7337. Like I said, I don't think UR will hit the lower #, much less likely the higher #.

I know why UR is going with a smaller stadium. In terms of 5-6k or more tickets needed that would fall only once every 2 years with JMU. Then there will only be 1-2 k JMU fans who will be able to get tickets instead of 7-8. You won't have to worry about UR's stadium being JMU's home away from home anymore! xsmiley_wix

Question to the JMU fan that knows so much about UR attendance:

What was JMU's attendance like for the several seasons that preceeded its national championship in 2004 and how much bump was there after 2004 championship season?

[bostonspider]

Well I cannot find the 2004 attendance, but JMU went from 9,949 in 2002 to 10,242 in 2003, and then shot up to 13,525 in 2005.... So a pretty big jump.

[bostonspider]

Interesting that there are two renderings of the new stadium, one with the temporary seats, and one without.

http://graphics.fansonly.com/schools/rich/graphics/aerialwithendzonestands-500.jpg

http://oncampus.richmond.edu/news/richmondnow/2007/05/images/stadium-1.jpg

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Well I cannot find the 2004 attendance, but JMU went from 9,949 in 2002 to 10,242 in 2003, and then shot up to 13,525 in 2005.... So a pretty big jump.

My next door neighbor is a JMU grad (2002). He said 'nobody' went to JMU games before they won the National Championship ... and that winning a Championship will significantly grow UR's fanbase.

I thought it was interesting feedback.

I noted that JMU doesn't keep archive on their football website prior to 2005. Where did you find the attendance data?

[bostonspider]

I found it on the NCAA website

[paward]

Was this a thread on the stadium, Patriot League or how we won the National Championship with such low attendence numbers?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Was this a thread on the stadium, Pariot League or how we won the National Championship with such low attendence numbers?

Pa, all threads about Richmond morph into the latter. You can always count on it like death and taxes.

[paward]

I guess so. I am not sure why UR numbers are so important to others. Sure we would love more fans. But the ones that come are good, faithful and loyal. I never hear anyone complain about our numbers but other CAA teams. The package we put on the field is among the best. Simply put what is best: Have 20,000 fans at every game and be a bridesmaid and brag on your numbers or have 5000 and be the last person to walk down the aisle? The math is simple to me. We are UR, it is what it is. I have to say how sweet it is this year! All 100 or our faithful fans feel the same way.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

I guess so. I am not sure why UR numbers are so important to others. Sure we would love more fans. But the ones that come are good, faithful and loyal. I never hear anyone complain about our numbers but other CAA teams. The package we put on the field is among the best. Simply put what is best: Have 20,000 fans at every game and be a bridesmaid and brag on your numbers or have 5000 and be the last person to walk down the aisle? The math is simple to me. We are UR, it is what it is. I have to say how sweet it is this year! All 100 or our faithful fans feel the same way.

Remember too, that if we start seeing a bump in attendance and support, we'll just be called 'Johnny Come Latelys'.

Its an uphill fight.

[Go...gate]

Happy New Year to all; I'll try to return to the main topic of the thread. I think this is a wake-up call to the PL which they will most likely fail to heed.

[bostonspider]

I think the Patriot League is in general pretty happy with the way things are. I am sure there are many fans that would love to see the schools getting deep into the playoffs, but it was not that long ago that the PL teams were competetive in the playoffs. Has something changed in the last 5 or so years to have lessened the league's quality?

[Go...gate]

It is getting much tougher recruiting and scheduling using scholarship "equivalencies" as opposed to pure scholarships. We are in a difficult middle ground, on one side losing more kids to the Ivy League as they make their financial aid more workable, and on the other side losing kids who opt for a full FB scholarship rather than a partial need-based aid grant combined with some contribution by a youngster's parents. Especially in this economy, who would not seriously consider a free ride?

[BDKJMU]

]Question to the JMU fan that knows so much about UR attendance: [/B]

What was JMU's attendance like for the several seasons that preceeded its national championship in 2004 and how much bump was there after 2004 championship season?

Only took a few minutes going to UR's website. The beauty of the internet. xsmiley_wix

As far as the bump JMU got compared to what UR should get. But in 04' started out the season unranked. Hadn't been to the playoffs since 99'. Before that was 95'. Last time had made it past the 1st round was 94'.

In 05' UR was in the quarterfinals, and 07' UR was in the semis. Started out 08' ranked top 5.

Point is UR was already getting a success bump in 05'-07' that JMU didn't get in their 3 yrs prior to their NC (01'-03'). So percentage wise, I don't think UR will get nearly as big a jump. Would have been the same with JMU if JMU had been in the quarterfinals in 01' (instead of being 2-9) and the semis in 03' (instead of being 6-6).

[BDKJMU]

My next door neighbor is a JMU grad (2002). He said 'nobody' went to JMU games before they won the National Championship ... and that winning a Championship will significantly grow UR's fanbase.

I thought it was interesting feedback.

I noted that JMU doesn't keep archive on their football website prior to 2005. Where did you find the attendance data?

As far as "nobody" going to games before JMU won the NC, obviously your neighbor wasn't there 94'-99'. It may have been true for 01'-03' (when JMU was 2-9, 5-7, 6-6). But I was at games 94'-99' when JMU was in the playoffs 94, 95', and 99' and there was good crowds. In 99' the last home game vs a 5-4 UR (when a win for then 7-2 JMU win meant clinching at least a share of the CAA title) attendance was 11,500. That wasn't a parents' weekend & or homecoming game.

UR is JMU's next to last home game for next season, and that game will probably be 16k+ overflow, esp if both teams are top 10 and in the playoff and/or seed hunt.

Attendance data can be found under the stats:
http://www.jmusports.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=14400&KEY=&SPID=8113&SPSID=71033

[BDKJMU]

The 8700 number includes the one end-zone temporary seating. Our special use permit with the city is for 8700. If we want more seating than that, it's back to the city (and thus the neighbors) we go...that's a multi-month process, not something we can do on short notice if we sense an opportunity for a big crowd. And the neighbors would be less-than-happy if we wanted to exceed the 8700 number soon after the stadium opens...it was difficult enough to get them onboard the first time around, and people don't like feeling like they've been subjected to a bait-and-switch.

Does the special use permit address SRO? For example, UNH's stadium is listed at 6,500k. And as UNH_Alum_In_CT pointed out, they have doubled that mostly with SRO.

A strict 8700 would not only greatly limit UR home game vs JMU, but also would limit home games with W&M and VMI, plus I imagine parents' weekend and homecoming games. And if UR football attendance & popularity does swell with the NC title and continued success, could limit UR fans ability to get tickets. Its one thing to limit opposing fans. Another to limit your own fanbase. I'm sure there are ways UR could get creative, like on sellouts allow free SRO for students, as since a large chunk of them live on campus and theoretcically they wouldn't be adding to any traffic problems.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Does the special use permit address SRO? For example, UNH's stadium is listed at 6,500k. Don't think they have that much temp seating, but they have had crowds over 10k.

A strict 8700 would not only greatly limit UR home game vs JMU, but also would limit home games with W&M and VMI, plus I imagine parents' weekend and homecoming games. And if UR football attendance & popularity does swell with the NC title and continued success, could limit UR fans ability to get tickets. Its one thing to limit opposing fans. Another to limit your own fanbase.

UNH goes over their stated capacity mainly with standing room only. Yes, there is a 1K temporary bleacher in the East End Zone. People stand on the wide area at the top of the home stands (sometimes many people deep), on the track in all four corners of the field, behind the low bleachers in the West End Zone, on a hill near this same EZ, etc. We've been over 13K at Homecoming two of the last three years.

[BDKJMU]

UNH goes over their stated capacity mainly with standing room only. Yes, there is a 1K temporary bleacher in the East End Zone. People stand on the wide area at the top of the home stands (sometimes many people deep), on the track in all four corners of the field, behind the low bleachers in the West End Zone, on a hill near this same EZ, etc. We've been over 13K at Homecoming two of the last three years.

Yeah, I was there in 06' when JMU spanked then #1 UNH.:p That was a HC game, right? JMU boxscore lists attendance as 13,042.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

[QUOTE=BDKJMU;1274684]Point is UR was already getting a success bump in 05'-07' [QUOTE]

I see your point, but I'd argue that the ill will generated by our former President in the community and with Alumni erased the 'success bump' the last few years. It may even take more years to wash it out completely.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

As far as "nobody" going to games before JMU won the NC, obviously your neighbor wasn't there 94'-99'.

UR is JMU's next to last home game for next season, and that game will probably be 16k+ overflow, esp if both teams are top 10 and in the playoff and/or seed hunt.


I said that he was a 2002 grad. I don't think he went to games before 1999.

It isn't much of a reach to say 16,000 would show up for our game next year, considering 16,000 came to City Stadium this year. I guess the attendance depends on Dudzik's development and how your O-line gels, right?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

A strict 8700 would not only greatly limit UR home game vs JMU, but also would limit home games with W&M and VMI, plus I imagine parents' weekend and homecoming games. And if UR football attendance & popularity does swell with the NC title and continued success, could limit UR fans ability to get tickets. Its one thing to limit opposing fans. Another to limit your own fanbase. I'm sure there are ways UR could get creative, like on sellouts allow free SRO for students, as since a large chunk of them live on campus and theoretcically they wouldn't be adding to any traffic problems.

What would be the 'Option C' you would have recommended for UR?

Option A is to stay in the off campus 'dump' that is City Stadium and continue to enjoy its 22,000 seat capacity.

Option B is to move on campus to a stadium that the local residents are agreeable to.

What is the 3rd option? Just scuttle football because we don't have a good stadium option?

It is a strict 8700 SUP.

[BDKJMU]

What would be the 'Option C' you would have recommended for UR?

Option A is to stay in the off campus 'dump' that is City Stadium and continue to enjoy its 22,000 seat capacity.

Option B is to move on campus to a stadium that the local residents are agreeable to.

What is the 3rd option? Just scuttle football because we don't have a good stadium option?

It is a strict 8700 SUP.

Its a shame that you have a top program now and the school wasn't able to stand up to a bunch of whiney local residents and the city council. Afterall, its only 5-6 days out of the year, plus maybe a playoff game or 2, where these local residents would be effected. Its not like its basketball with a 12-14 home games each yr. Kind of ironic that Richmond has a 112k seating capacity racetrack but won't allow bigger than an 8700 football stadium.
I wonder if a I-AA powerhouse has ever had that happen to them before- dictated that their stadium had to be under 9k, despite having funds, and the need, to build it larger? Maybe the 3rd option would be to keep winning, increasing the fanbase, and there would be enough support for, less resistance against, expansion.

[DTSpider]

Its a shame that you have a top program now and the school wasn't able to stand up to a bunch of whiney local residents and the city council. Afterall, its only 5-6 days out of the year, plus maybe a playoff game or 2, where these local residents would be effected. Its not like its basketball with a 12-14 home games each yr. Kind of ironic that Richmond has a 112k seating capacity racetrack but won't allow bigger than an 8700 football stadium.
I wonder if a I-AA powerhouse has ever had that happen to them before- dictated that their stadium had to be under 9k, despite having funds, and the need, to build it larger? Maybe the 3rd option would be to keep winning, increasing the fanbase, and there would be enough support for, less resistance against, expansion.

Once again, UR was put in a really hard place here. What's not mentioned in the above option is that for UR to stay at the current dump that is City Stadium was a $5 million price tag to purchase it from the City...plus another ~$10 million in repairs. So, stay off-campus for $15 million or come on campus for $20 million (at the time estimate)?

Also forgotten is that UR offered to pay a premium to the city for Bandy Field (located adjacent to campus) that could have been used for a new stadium, and contained plenty of parking space and had easier road access. This sale was initially approved by the city, but then overturned at the last minute due to the neighbors.

[ur2k]

Its a shame that you have a top program now and the school wasn't able to stand up to a bunch of whiney local residents and the city council. Afterall, its only 5-6 days out of the year, plus maybe a playoff game or 2, where these local residents would be effected. Its not like its basketball with a 12-14 home games each yr. Kind of ironic that Richmond has a 112k seating capacity racetrack but won't allow bigger than an 8700 football stadium.
I wonder if a I-AA powerhouse has ever had that happen to them before- dictated that their stadium had to be under 9k, despite having funds, and the need, to build it larger? Maybe the 3rd option would be to keep winning, increasing the fanbase, and there would be enough support for, less resistance against, expansion.

These neighbors have a lot of money and power. There are plenty of million dollar homes in this area (which is very expensive in Richmond) as well as the Country Club of Virginia - where much of Richmond's old money resides. If they put enough pressure on city council in Richmond, it would have been a battle that would have gone on for YEARS. As the process stood, it already took years to get approved.

Your example with the NASCAR track doesn't apply here b/c that's in Henrico County, not the City of Richmond = different local governments.

To be really honest with you, I (and probably most UR fans) don't really care if JMU fans don't like the size of our stadium. I can't wait for it to be built and to tailgate on campus. Do I wish it was a little bigger? Yes. But I'll take a full 8700 stadium on campus over a 1/2 empty City Stadium any day of the week.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Maybe the 3rd option would be to keep winning, increasing the fanbase, and there would be enough support for, less resistance against, expansion.

Sure, that could happen in the future! We would just need another Special Use Permit!

The football versus NASCAR comparison is absurd because you are comparing Private School football with the most attended professional sport in the USA ... plus, as ur2k said, each facility is in a different locality.

I think the real 'shame' is that all of your Kinesology Majors with a Sports Management Concentration that had surely just finished a rigorous exam period were unable to force a rematch with the little Private School with no fans in Chattanooga on 12.19.08. All 3 of us had been looking forward to a rematch.

[paward]

Sure, that could happen in the future! We would just need another Special Use Permit!

The football versus NASCAR comparison is absurd because you are comparing Private School football with the most attended professional sport in the USA ... plus, as ur2k said, each facility is in a different locality.

I think the real 'shame' is that all of your Kinesology Majors with a Sports Management Concentration that had surely just finished a rigorous exam period were unable to force a rematch with the little Private School with no fans in Chattanooga on 12.19.08. All 3 of us had been looking forward to a rematch.

Make that four!

[ur2k]

Sure, that could happen in the future! We would just need another Special Use Permit!

The football versus NASCAR comparison is absurd because you are comparing Private School football with the most attended professional sport in the USA ... plus, as ur2k said, each facility is in a different locality.

I think the real 'shame' is that all of your Kinesology Majors with a Sports Management Concentration that had surely just finished a rigorous exam period were unable to force a rematch with the little Private School with no fans in Chattanooga on 12.19.08. All 3 of us had been looking forward to a rematch.

I like that, we can name our 2008 championship DVD "The Little Private School that Could" xbowx

[Franks Tanks]

I like that, we can name our 2008 championship DVD "The Little Private School that Could" xbowx

Questions for you RIchmond guys. How much does your admission office bend when it comes to admitting preferred recruits that may be borderline academically? The Patriot and Ivy schools as well as Wofford, Furman, and William & Mary (and Nova) are really the only schools in FCS with such concerns. Only the IVY and PAtrioy are bound by league wide guidelines. I understand that the FB players at Richmond, Furman and William & Mary are overll very good students who have very good admission numbers, but you guys have more flexibility to let in 3-4 borderline kids every year that may be difference makers.. I think this as well with scholarships helps explain the amount of talent you have. Again overall I understand you have very solid student-athletes that are representative of the student body as a whole. However, it seems you are able to have a bit more leeway for prized recruits. Is this the case in your opinion? or am I way off?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Questions for you RIchmond guys. How much does your admission office bend when it comes to admitting preferred recruits that may be borderline academically? The Patriot and Ivy schools as well as Wofford, Furman, and William & Mary (and Nova) are really the only schools in FCS with such concerns. Only the IVY and PAtrioy are bound by league wide guidelines. I understand that the FB players at Richmond, Furman and William & Mary are overll very good students who have very good admission numbers, but you guys have more flexibility to let in 3-4 borderline kids every year that may be difference makers.. I think this as well with scholarships helps explain the amount of talent you have. Again overall I understand you have very solid student-athletes that are representative of the student body as a whole. However, it seems you are able to have a bit more leeway for prized recruits. Is this the case in your opinion? or am I way off?

With all due respect, you are off-base. See Jerry Wainwright's departure from coaching basketball at UR to go do DePaul. He couldn't get the kids he recruited into school.

We have a tremendous amount of talent right now because Dave Clawson and now Mike London are top notch recruiters. They have the same limitations as the schools you mention above.

[Eight Legger]

Questions for you RIchmond guys. How much does your admission office bend when it comes to admitting preferred recruits that may be borderline academically? The Patriot and Ivy schools as well as Wofford, Furman, and William & Mary (and Nova) are really the only schools in FCS with such concerns. Only the IVY and PAtrioy are bound by league wide guidelines. I understand that the FB players at Richmond, Furman and William & Mary are overll very good students who have very good admission numbers, but you guys have more flexibility to let in 3-4 borderline kids every year that may be difference makers.. I think this as well with scholarships helps explain the amount of talent you have. Again overall I understand you have very solid student-athletes that are representative of the student body as a whole. However, it seems you are able to have a bit more leeway for prized recruits. Is this the case in your opinion? or am I way off?

I would say you are way off. I'm not sure which prized recruits you think we have bent the rules for, but look at Sidbury. He's going to the NFL, but he is majoring in computer science and tutors kids in geometry in the summer.

We are the same caliber school as the others you mentioned, if not higher. W&M is a public school and students from Va. already are able to get in a little easier there than out of staters. We're private, so it's more difficult. I don't know of any school that holds all of its athletes to the exact admission criteria that it does its regular students, but we certainly don't let in kids who cannot cut it academically at UR.

A few years ago we denied admission to AD Vassallo, the basketball player who ended up at Va Tech. He would have been our top recruit in the past 5-10 years probably, but he didn't meet our standards and so he isn't here.

[Franks Tanks]

With all due respect, you are off-base. See Jerry Wainwright's departure from coaching basketball at UR to go do DePaul. He couldn't get the kids he recruited into school.

We have a tremendous amount of talent right now because Dave Clawson and now Mike London are top notch recruiters. They have the same limitations as the schools you mention above.

Ok I was wondering how it worked for you guys. Look at it this way. Many times people at Georgetown or Colgate or any Patriot scholl will complain because they cannt get a guy in because he doesnt fit LEAGUE guidelines not school. I am not talking about dummies here but perhaps a guy with something like an 1150 SAT may be rejected even though the individual schools admission office is willing to take a chance. So the school is willing to make an exeption and give the kid a chance, but with league guidelines being hard and fast they school is unable to act with autonomy. With Furman or Richmond have no league guidelines to interfere it seems you guys would be able to admit a few of those 1150 guys each year. If you say that is no the case I will believe you, but one would this exceptions would be made here and there. I know us Patriot schools woudl love the felxibility to make such exceptions.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Ok I was wondering how it worked for you guys. Look at it this way. Many times people at Georgetown or Colgate or any Patriot scholl will complain because they cannt get a guy in because he doesnt fit LEAGUE guidelines not school. I am not talking about dummies here but perhaps a guy with something like an 1150 SAT may be rejected even though the individual schools admission office is willing to take a chance. So the school is willing to make an exeption and give the kid a chance, but with league guidelines being hard and fast they school is unable to act with autonomy. With Furman or Richmond have no league guidelines to interfere it seems you guys would be able to admit a few of those 1150 guys each year. If you say that is no the case I will believe you, but one would this exceptions would be made here and there. I know us Patriot schools woudl love the felxibility to make such exceptions.

I honestly don't know enough about these Patriot League restrictions to compare. I do know that we are not cutting any corners when compared to Wofford, Furman, Villanova, William and Mary.

Once enrolled, the players are Richmond are not Kinesiology Majors with Sports Management Concentrations. They are taking real classes and earning their degree.

[spdram]

Hoops gets more leaway than any sport on campus, hence lead to the problems with Jerry Wainwright, we are still paying for his trangressions. The concept is limited admission concessions are made but it is EXPECTED the kid will make academic progress and graduate with a "real degree". BTW we did away with all "basket weaving" type classes years ago. Football has a few leaway positions also but they are still held to a pretty high standard. I know of one situation in which Coach Clawson was very interested in local kid, the kid really wanted to stay in the Richmond area so his family could watch him play. He was about 1100 and 2.9. Without revealing personal reasons the kid had very poor grades early on and then got his life straight and was carrying about 3.5 in later years. Because one important class was taken in summer school we could not get him into Richmond, per Clawson no need to even try. He should start for a major SEC program next year.

[Franks Tanks]

I honestly don't know enough about these Patriot League restrictions to compare. I do know that we are not cutting any corners when compared to Wofford, Furman, Villanova, William and Mary.

Once enrolled, the players are Richmond are not Kinesiology Majors with Sports Management Concentrations. They are taking real classes and earning their degree.

We must only accept students-athletes within a given standard deviation of our typical admit. Even a bit out of the zone and no dice. We are going to the AI banding used by the Ivies. This means we will be able to take so many recruits in a given score band each year.

[Go...gate]

I honestly don't know enough about these Patriot League restrictions to compare. I do know that we are not cutting any corners when compared to Wofford, Furman, Villanova, William and Mary.

Once enrolled, the players are Richmond are not Kinesiology Majors with Sports Management Concentrations. They are taking real classes and earning their degree.

As it should be. xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

We must only accept students-athletes within a given standard deviation of our typical admit. Even a bit out of the zone and no dice. We are going to the AI banding used by the Ivies. This means we will be able to take so many recruits in a given score band each year.

I'm no fan of a Patriot AI--it's a sop to the Ivies and should be dropped. Establish a hard floor (say, a minimum 3.0 and a 1200 M/V SAT) and then recruit whoever makes the grade.

[Franks Tanks]

I'm no fan of a Patriot AI--it's a sop to the Ivies and should be dropped. Establish a hard floor (say, a minimum 3.0 and a 1200 M/V SAT) and then recruit whoever makes the grade.

I agree. I am all for giving each individual school autonomy to make admission decisions for athletes. I do not believe it will be taken advantage of and will improve the overall product without harming the quality of students who play sports.

[CrusaderBob]

I thought the new AI for the PL essentially did just that. Created a floor for the league.

Now granted you can't admit a class of athletes composed entirely of admits just above the floor, but it certainly levels things out.

LFN wrote about it here: http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/search?q=AI

If you don't want to read the whole thing, just read the section with the subtitle "Hard Floor & Bands."

[colorless raider]

We are now all equal WiTHIN THE LEAGUE. hOWEVER WE ARE at a greater disadvantage vs scholarship and Ivy schools.

[DFW HOYA]

We are now all equal WiTHIN THE LEAGUE. hOWEVER WE ARE at a greater disadvantage vs scholarship and Ivy schools.

Read the article again--it still reverts to where the school's GPA and class rank numbers are as a whole, which means Georgetown and Colgate still have a higher threshold than Fordham and Holy Cross. Georgetown's latest numbers place the average accepted student in the top 5.5% of his HS class. How many FB players does that leave them?

A lower band candidate at Georgetown may well be a middle band candidate for Holy Cross, meaning a lot more more spaces are open for that kid at HC when Georgetown has fewer. If a kid is allowed in the athletic admissions pool at places like Lehigh and HC, he ought to be allowed in the pool at Georgetown.

[Model Citizen]

Richmond spends $4.5 million a year on football. Unless tickets are $125 apiece, they are getting significant funding from other sources. What are they? Endowment, student fees, rich uncle...?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Richmond spends $4.5 million a year on football. Unless tickets are $125 apiece, they are getting significant funding from other sources. What are they? Endowment, student fees, rich uncle...?

I would say that more than 90 percent of 1-AA programs are not covering their costs through 'operations'. Why don't you ask most any program (Montana, App State, Delaware , ??? excluded) how they are doing it?

While you're at it, ask any college soccer, lacrosse, track and field, cross country, swimming and diving program how they do it while not selling any tickets.

[DFW HOYA]

I would say that more than 90 percent of 1-AA programs are not covering their costs through 'operations'. Why don't you ask most any program (Montana, App State, Delaware , ??? excluded) how they are doing it?

While you're at it, ask any college soccer, lacrosse, track and field, cross country, swimming and diving program how they do it while not selling any tickets.

University subsidies.

[Model Citizen]

University subsidies.

Yes, I imagine you are correct. Can you be more specific?

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, I imagine you are correct. Can you be more specific?

Its part of the overall school budget just as professor salaries and building maintence. The costs are covered by tuition, endowment, private donations and state and federal funds. The amount each piece factors into the final number is school specific.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Yes, I imagine you are correct. Can you be more specific?

The athletic department is given a portion of the University budget. In addition, money comes in through donations from Alumni. Other money comes in from advertisers.

It really isn't that complicated.

How does your school do it?

[Franks Tanks]

Read the article again--it still reverts to where the school's GPA and class rank numbers are as a whole, which means Georgetown and Colgate still have a higher threshold than Fordham and Holy Cross. Georgetown's latest numbers place the average accepted student in the top 5.5% of his HS class. How many FB players does that leave them?

A lower band candidate at Georgetown may well be a middle band candidate for Holy Cross, meaning a lot more more spaces are open for that kid at HC when Georgetown has fewer. If a kid is allowed in the athletic admissions pool at places like Lehigh and HC, he ought to be allowed in the pool at Georgetown.

I understand the point but the Ivies play by the same rules and the schools at the top of the Ivy AI do just fine. Harvard has the highest AI followed most likely by Yale. You dont see those two schools being dominated by Penn and Cornell (presumably the lowest Ivy AI). The fact that Harvard can compete for an Ivy championship each year with the highest AI shows it can be done. Yes I understand Harvard is Harvard, but Georgetown is suspossed to be the Harvard of the PL. Harvard is able to draw athletes because of their reputation, great coaching staff, and commitment by the administration-- the AI becomes a minor issue. Yes Georgetown has a higher AI, but the inept coaching staff and lack of commitment by the Georgetown admin is the real porblem IMO. Also why doesnt this great Georgetown rep draw more kids to Georgetown AI be dammed??? Again it all comes back to the commitment and coaching and this becomes very clear to recruits.

[Model Citizen]

The athletic department is given a portion of the University budget. In addition, money comes in through donations from Alumni. Other money comes in from advertisers.

It really isn't that complicated.

How does your school do it?

What you said. Only about $3.5 mill less. xrotatehx

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

What you said. Only about $3.5 mill less. xrotatehx

What is your school ... so we can evaluate whether a $1M budget is appropriate, given its success?

How would your school value being on ESPN two weekends in a row?

...or being about to recruit and keep Tim Hightower, who ends up getting 10 NFL touchdowns and gets described as 'Tim Hightower from University of Richmond' several times every weekend?

How much does your booster club receive in donations annually?

How much is your endowment?

I think we'd really have to know the answers to all these questions to compare the schools, right?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

What you said. Only about $3.5 mill less. xrotatehx

Where are you getting your numbers, anyway?

Our school costs over $40,000 per year, so I am sure your are counting $2.5M in scholarship 'costs' into your math, right?

How much is room, board, tuition at your school?

[bostonspider]

Now this is from a study by Georgia State from a few years ago when they were just considering adding football, so I am not sure if the numbers are particularly current or accurate, but it gives you an idea of how UR funds its athletics

The Athletic Budget at Richmond is approximately $15.5 million. The University supports $6 million in financial aid and $2 million in operating support. The rest comes from Development efforts, approximately $1.2 million through the Spider Club, $300,000 in football gate receipts, 600,000 in Basketball gate, $700,000 in corporate sponsorships, and income from a $105 million athletics endowment (4.5% of principal).

[Model Citizen]

Where are you getting your numbers, anyway?

Our school costs over $40,000 per year, so I am sure your are counting $2.5M in scholarship 'costs' into your math, right?

How much is room, board, tuition at your school?

$4.5 million is from the Equity in Athletics website.

My school is San Diego...I'm sure we don't approach 1.2 M a year from the Torero Football Assoc.

A full equivalency is 50 grand.

I'm thinking that if our administration valued ESPN coverage to the tune of $4.5 million, we would just write a check and pay for the air time.

We've done ok on this budget. 'Could've done it for significantly less than a million bucks if not for travel to the south and midwest. Win over a fully funded team this year...and we had someone drafted 11 spots behind your man.

[TribeNomad]

I have always been amused by the endless drivel about UR attendance figures......the fans don't suit up, and UR just won the NC for goodness sake. We all have a cap on scollies, and though we all know academic requirements differ by school, some schools will be more "liberal" than others.

Also, some schools count the students in their attendance figures, others do not, among other factors.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

$4.5 million is from the Equity in Athletics website.

My school is San Diego...I'm sure we don't approach 1.2 M a year from the Torero Football Assoc.

A full equivalency is 50 grand.

I'm thinking that if our administration valued ESPN coverage to the tune of $4.5 million, we would just write a check and pay for the air time.

We've done ok on this budget. 'Could've done it for significantly less than a million bucks if not for travel to the south and midwest. Win over a fully funded team this year...and we had someone drafted 11 spots behind your man.

I have no idea how to interpret the data from the Equity in Athletics website. It also says Football revenue is $894,664 at USD and $4,462,698 at UR. Explain that.

We pay our head coach somewhere between $250,000 and $300,000. Our assistants get modest salaries like assistants at other 1aa schools. Our team doesn't stay at the 4 Seasons on Road Trips. We bus when we can.

I have no earthly idea how this website says you operate your program at 1/4 the cost we do. I also have no idea how it says we have 4 times the revenue you do.

[Model Citizen]

I have no idea how to interpret the data from the Equity in Athletics website. It also says Football revenue is $894,664 at USD and $4,462,698 at UR. Explain that.

Not only that, but your revenue and expenses also balance. Since there is no apparent set of reporting rules, I conclude that UR includes a school subsidy, but USD does not.

Obviously, USD provides a subsidy in excess of $100k. However, they include only football revenue in the federal report.

[DFW HOYA]

I have no idea how to interpret the data from the Equity in Athletics website. It also says Football revenue is $894,664 at USD and $4,462,698 at UR. Explain that.


UR probably counts the subsidies as an intra-university credit (revenue) for the athletic department.

The $894K at USD is probably the sum of credits for operating expenses, coaching (one HC, four FT assts, 6 PT), and travel. UR's numbers start with circa $3M in scholarships, plus accounting for operating expenses, guarantee game revenue, and a few more coaches' salaries (10 FT assts).

[Model Citizen]

I see they offer accounting courses at Georgetown. xsmiley_wix

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

UR probably counts the subsidies as an intra-university credit (revenue) for the athletic department.

The $894K at USD is probably the sum of credits for operating expenses, coaching (one HC, four FT assts, 6 PT), and travel. UR's numbers start with circa $3M in scholarships, plus accounting for operating expenses, guarantee game revenue, and a few more coaches' salaries (10 FT assts).

So in layman's terms, you are saying UR counts its scholarships as an 'expense' and USD does not. Right?

[Model Citizen]

... UR counts its scholarships as an 'expense' and USD does not.

What scholarships could USD possibly count? xconfusedx

[ur2k]

what point are we trying to get at here? I lost it a few pages back?

I'm assuming USD doesn't give scholarships? Why not? I apologize for not knowing the financial situations of al FCS schools. Seems like we may be trying to compare things here that are not comparable.

[Model Citizen]

USD football doesn't give scholarships. I think I mentioned $50k equivalencies. Redirecting an extra $3.5 million from academics to football would be a problem at USD. Obviously, UR is different.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

What scholarships could USD possibly count? xconfusedx

To be honest, I had no idea that San Diego had a football program, let alone a Non-scholarship program until you showed up on this thread today.

Whether you have scholarships or not, what I am saying is at least $2M of UR's 'expense' is scholarhips. The school still needed to pay the professors and keep the lights on and warm up the food in the dining hall, whether they had 63 football players on scholarship or not. It doesn't matter.

You are really pointing a finger at any scholarship football program by showing this disparity in 'expenses'.

This conversation would be best served comparing your costs to Dayton, Drake or whoever it is that you play that is on an even playing field with San Diego.

[Model Citizen]

To be honest, I had no idea that San Diego had a football program, let alone a Non-scholarship program until you showed up on this thread today.

Hang in there. We'll get you up to speed.

[Fordham]

I'm no fan of a Patriot AI--it's a sop to the Ivies and should be dropped. Establish a hard floor (say, a minimum 3.0 and a 1200 M/V SAT) and then recruit whoever makes the grade.
Isn't the purpose of the AI so that players at Fordham are equally as representative of the students at Fordham as players for Colgate are to Colgate's students and so on?

What you propose above would be great for G-town for obvious reasons but would also mean that players at Fordham would have to be better students versus their peers than any other players in the PL.

I continue to ask this question whenever this topic comes up but just because the prior system had inequalities doesn't mean that the system you're replacing it with doesn't also have its inequalities. You're just swapping them out by doing anything because there is no system that is going to be perfect.

[DFW HOYA]

Isn't the purpose of the AI so that players at Fordham are equally as representative of the students at Fordham as players for Colgate are to Colgate's students and so on?

This only works if the seven schools are sharing comparable students, which it does not. Here's the SAT ranges from Forbes magazine:

Georgetown: 1300-1490
Lehigh: 1280-1450
Colgate: 1260-1430
Bucknell: 1230-1400
Holy Cross: 1210-1380
Lafayette: 1180-1390
Fordham: 1130-1330

Forget the high numbers for a moment: a 1300 on the SAT is approximately the 90th percentile of male applicants, an 1130 is the 67th percentile. In other words, Georgetown can't realistically look below the top 10% for its pool, while Fordham gets a third of the overall SAT pool to choose among.

While Fordham doesn't have numbers along the lines once attributed to Towson, it has a considerable advantage with lower band recruits Georgetown, Colgate and increasingly Lehigh can't touch. My argument is that if a prospect is good enough to be recruited by one PL school, he ought to be available for everyone.

[Model Citizen]

So you're saying GU doesn't make exceptions to the 1300 minimum for athletes?

[Fordham]

This only works if the seven schools are sharing comparable students, which it does not. Here's the SAT ranges from Forbes magazine:

Georgetown: 1300-1490
Lehigh: 1280-1450
Colgate: 1260-1430
Bucknell: 1230-1400
Holy Cross: 1210-1380
Lafayette: 1180-1390
Fordham: 1130-1330

Forget the high numbers for a moment: a 1300 on the SAT is approximately the 90th percentile of male applicants, an 1130 is the 67th percentile. In other words, Georgetown can't realistically look below the top 10% for its pool, while Fordham gets a third of the overall SAT pool to choose among.

While Fordham doesn't have numbers along the lines once attributed to Towson, it has a considerable advantage with lower band recruits Georgetown, Colgate and increasingly Lehigh can't touch. My argument is that if a prospect is good enough to be recruited by one PL school, he ought to be available for everyone.
There's absolutely an inequity in the current system but you don't address how your proposed change to a 1200 floor doesn't just switch inequities. Not only would G-town be able to capitalize on having the best academic cache of all schools in the PL but now a G-town football player would be able to have an SAT more than 100 points under the lower band for all students while the Fordham player would be 70 points higher than the lower SAT range for the Fordham student body.

I know you like to say that the PL has designed things so that G-town can't compete but how the heck would Fordham ever be able to compete under those circumstances?

[DFW HOYA]

So you're saying GU doesn't make exceptions to the 1300 minimum for athletes?

The 1300-1490 numbers cited are the range from the 25th to 75th percentiles--25% score below 1300, 25% score above 1490 (verbal and math).

The Big East sets a basic eligibility floor (along the lines most NCAA conferences do) but the PL has strict rules that limit GU's football signees by grades and SAT scores, e.g., the index. Broadly stated, GU can't look at very many kids below 1300 these days as a matter of course, and that's assuming they're even available after larger schools and the Ivies have zeroed in on them. And remember there are a number of top recruits that might not get an athletic offer but can get a full ride at schools just on merit--Colgate and Georgetown are the only PL schools that do not offer merit scholarships of some kind.

[Franks Tanks]

1300 is not the minimum, it's the 25th percentile of accepted scores.

The Big East sets a basic eligibility floor (along the lines most NCAA conferences do) but the PL has strict rules that limit its football signees by grades and SAT scores, e.g., the index. Broadly stated, GU can't look at very many kids below 1300 these days as a matter of course, and that's assuming they're still available after larger schools and the Ivies have zeroed in on them.

Well why cant Georgetown pull some of those kids away from the Ivies? We constantly hear what a great scholl Georgetown is, they why cant you win more recruiting battles with the Cornell, Brown, Columbia's and Dartmouth's of the world?

[DFW HOYA]

Well why cant Georgetown pull some of those kids away from the Ivies? We constantly hear what a great scholl Georgetown is, they why cant you win more recruiting battles with the Cornell, Brown, Columbia's and Dartmouth's of the world?

A lot of it is money (a generous grant at Columbia beats a Georgetown loan+work study to many families), but some of it is coursework (if you want to study engineering, you're not even looking at Georgetown, but if you want undergraduate business, you're probably not looking at Dartmouth), some is location (you either love Ithaca or you don't), and some is athletic infrastructure (no one is confusing Multi-Sport Field with Schoellkopf Field.)

Each of these schools wins some, loses some, but loses even more to H-Y-P and Penn.

[Franks Tanks]

A lot of it is money (a generous grant at Columbia beats a Georgetown loan+work study to many families), but some of it is coursework (if you want to study engineering, you're not even looking at Georgetown, but if you want undergraduate business, you're probably not looking at Dartmouth), some is location (you either love Ithaca or you don't), and some is athletic infrastructure (no one is confusing Multi-Sport Field with Schoellkopf Field.)

Each of these schools wins some, loses some, but loses even more to H-Y-P and Penn.

I understand, but I guess my point is that some things are beyond control and others are within control. If a recruit doesnt like the area or the program in his field of study or doesnt have the grades not much you can do. But Georgetown can do a better job making the FB program attractive to recruits by upgarding facilites and aid. These factors have nothing to do with AI, and may be an even larger component then AI. I understand the frustration you feel with the G-town program, but it is the fault of the school not the league AI guidelines.

[bison137]

This only works if the seven schools are sharing comparable students, which it does not. Here's the SAT ranges from Forbes magazine:

Georgetown: 1300-1490
Lehigh: 1280-1450
Colgate: 1260-1430
Bucknell: 1230-1400
Holy Cross: 1210-1380
Lafayette: 1180-1390
Fordham: 1130-1330

Forget the high numbers for a moment: a 1300 on the SAT is approximately the 90th percentile of male applicants, an 1130 is the 67th percentile. In other words, Georgetown can't realistically look below the top 10% for its pool, while Fordham gets a third of the overall SAT pool to choose among.

While Fordham doesn't have numbers along the lines once attributed to Towson, it has a considerable advantage with lower band recruits Georgetown, Colgate and increasingly Lehigh can't touch. My argument is that if a prospect is good enough to be recruited by one PL school, he ought to be available for everyone.


I'm not sure if it is Forbes's error or if you miscopied the numbers, but the SAT score for Lehigh is way off. What you show is their range for admitted students - not enrolled students, which is what is shown for the others. Lehigh's most recently reported range is actually 1180-1390.

This is the corrected version:


Georgetown: 1300-1490
Colgate: 1260-1430
Bucknell: 1230-1400
Lehigh: 1240-1390
Holy Cross: 1210-1380
Lafayette: 1180-1390
Fordham: 1130-1330

[WildPard]

DFW Hoya--not all of the Hoyas problems are due to the academic hurdles they have to jump or the facilities problems. From recent personal experience, the coaching staff does an absolutely horrible job recruiting high school football players. Part of it could be attributed to their budget for recruiting, however, phone calls and letters are fairly cheap. Even when they get the kids on campus for a home football game, their game day recruit activities for the kids and their parents are woeful when compared to the teams they compete against. Yes, part of that problem can be blamed on facilities. Of the 6 kids they hosted at the game we attended, none ended up at Georgwtown. I can't speak for the others, but two were from the same high school and could have significantly contributed (if not started) in their first year--they both had Georgetown as one of their top schools, but were turned off by the lack of interest/attention from the coaching staff. Both had the academic numbers to easily get accepted and were told they were the head coach's top recruits at their respective postions, but there were no home visits, school visits, weekly phone calls, emails, hand written letters from the head coach, etc. Georgetown's competitors used all of the above mentioned recruiting tactics and both kids went with schools who will face Georgetown and both contributed as freshmen. I got the feeling that the assistant coaches who recruited this area did not feel like they were going to be at Georgetown much longer and didn't put forth too much of an effort.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With the renewed interest in all things AI, I'm real tempted to write a follow-up blog posting about all this. But just to steer the debate, I do want to clarify some things.

1) First of all, bison137 is right on the money - it's enrolled students, not admitted students, which is the number used for the AI. So his SAT ranges are the correct ones.

2) Second, the important piece that everyone is forgetting here is the standardization of measures for the AI from school to school. It's not a sexy subject, but it's the fact that now everyone is using the same calculation that allows a hard floor and banding system. Before, (say) Bucknell could use class rank as their classroom component and (say) Holy Cross could use GPA, and both would come up with different numbers and be restricted. Now, they are forced to use the same measurements - which allows for a standardization across the league.

3) Equally as important, the PL did NOT have a "standard" way of computing the AI for students in prior years. It's only this year, starting with this incoming class, that it is now standard with a hard floor. Yes, there was a sort-of common formula - but not the exact same for each school. It makes a difference.

4) In theory, a standard AI with a hard floor favors Georgetown -- should they elect to use it. Why? Simply because the hard floor is well below two standard deviations of the median of their incoming classes.

Let's look at G'Town's numbers for a moment, with 1395 as their class median. In the "old days", almost all of their incoming football class had to have (say) 1300 and above just to get in - and if so, they would need a (say) 1500 football player in at the same time to put the numbers right.

With the banding system in place, Georgetown can actually put resources into recruiting "lower band" football players if they want to. Before, they needed to broadly look at only 1300 kids and above. Now? They CAN recruit a 1200 kid that they think can handle the coursework if they want to - up to three athletes in the lowest band. This is a huge change.

This demonstrates how Georgetown's recruting pool has increased significantly with the new AI rules - again, if they choose to use it. It also explains the reason why Harvard, Yale and Princeton have gone from being the dregs of the Ivy League in football to perennial title contenders.

5) As DFW mentions, money is also a huge factor as to where other kids go, and is a whole other topic.

[OLPOP]

Wildpard is right about recruiting as a problem for Georgetown. But it's also about evaluation of recruits, in my experience. My son was being heavily recruited by Coach Benson. Coach Kelly had him waste a visit, and then withdrew the offer. He told the high school coach he didn't think the kid could play in the PL. He's been starting for Fordham since late in his freshman year. My guess is he is not the only kid improperly evaluated by the Georgetown staff.

[Franks Tanks]

Wildpard is right about recruiting as a problem for Georgetown. But it's also about evaluation of recruits, in my experience. My son was being heavily recruited by Coach Benson. Coach Kelly had him waste a visit, and then withdrew the offer. He told the high school coach he didn't think the kid could play in the PL. He's been starting for Fordham since late in his freshman year. My guess is he is not the only kid improperly evaluated by the Georgetown staff.

Good Story. I believe an argument is beginning to build that shows the problems at G-town are more related to coaching and administrative support, rather then AI mandated by the league.

Here is a solid Patriot League player who may have attended Georgetown if the offer was made. I'm sure the Hoyas could desperatly use an O-linemen of your son's caliber.

[HoyaMetanoia]

Wildpard is right about recruiting as a problem for Georgetown. But it's also about evaluation of recruits, in my experience. My son was being heavily recruited by Coach Benson. Coach Kelly had him waste a visit, and then withdrew the offer. He told the high school coach he didn't think the kid could play in the PL. He's been starting for Fordham since late in his freshman year. My guess is he is not the only kid improperly evaluated by the Georgetown staff.

I think there are two problems that plague Georgetown: poor facilities/funding/financial commitment to the program and coaching.

I won't get into the funding issues, but I don't think there's any doubt that Coach Kelly has not only been a poor game day coach, but a poor motivator, leader and evaluator of talent. Georgetown gets a lot of talented kids with offers from other more athletically prestigious schools, but I tend to think that it is in spite of Coach Kelly rather than because of him.

Just look at the QB position. Somehow, Georgetown has 9 QBs on the roster, yet (line problems aside) the coaches haven't recruited one guy they can stick with for a whole season.

[Fordham]

4) In theory, a standard AI with a hard floor favors Georgetown -- should they elect to use it. Why? Simply because the hard floor is well below two standard deviations of the median of their incoming classes.

Let's look at G'Town's numbers for a moment, with 1395 as their class median. In the "old days", almost all of their incoming football class had to have (say) 1300 and above just to get in - and if so, they would need a (say) 1500 football player in at the same time to put the numbers right.

With the banding system in place, Georgetown can actually put resources into recruiting "lower band" football players if they want to. Before, they needed to broadly look at only 1300 kids and above. Now? They CAN recruit a 1200 kid that they think can handle the coursework if they want to - up to three athletes in the lowest band. This is a huge change.

This demonstrates how Georgetown's recruting pool has increased significantly with the new AI rules - again, if they choose to use it. It also explains the reason why Harvard, Yale and Princeton have gone from being the dregs of the Ivy League in football to perennial title contenders.

... and also likely explains why Dartmouth and Cornell are moreso bottom feeders in the current Ivy league whereas they were at or near the top of the league back when the Ivies calculated AI on a school by school basis versus league wide.

And since G-town is going to most benefit from this move you would therefore assume there is a team who is going to find it detrimental, correct?

I hope we enjoyed our two titles in this decade because if we remain the PL, those will likely be the last ones we'll see.

LFN, check my thinking here b/c I'm doing my best to not over react. But we basically have a situation where a) the league chose to "step up" and address this issue instead of actually stepping up to (what I, at least, certainly perceive as) a bigger priority in scholarships and b) this will have a dramatic impact on our competitiveness.

Assuming my thinking is correct you're reading the first post in my "Fordham must leave the PL" campaign, fellas.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, check my thinking here b/c I'm doing my best to not over react. But we basically have a situation where a) the league chose to "step up" and address this issue instead of actually stepping up to (what I, at least, certainly perceive as) a bigger priority in scholarships and b) this will have a dramatic impact on our competitiveness.

Assuming my thinking is correct you're reading the first post in my "Fordham must leave the PL" campaign, fellas.

It was my impression that the standardization of the AI rules and the future of athletic scholarships for PL football are linked - that scholarships weren't going to get done without AI reform. Personally I am hoping that this is the case, and that scholarships in football are the next step.

To me, it is clear that the AI was a very pressing issue. Across the board the PL has not been as strong as it was in the late nineties/early noghties. Back then, wins against the NEC and Pioneer were expected, and we made great challenges at the elite of the A-10 (now CAA). Now, the PL has become first round fodder and haven't won a playoff game since that magical 2003 run by Colgate.

Furthermore, as the other posts on this thread demonstrate, G'Town went from being a team on the rise to a team in serious decline over those past five years. They were the worst example, but that's not the only decline. In 2003, Colgate went undefeated and beat an FBS team. In 2007, a Fordham team won the PL who lost to the PFL champion. In 2008, a Colgate team lost to Stony Brook and Furman, while needing a miracle play to beat Coastal Carolina.

How much is scholarships, how much is AI, and how much is institutional? Hard to say exactly. Since Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham and Colgate were winning championships before, it doesn't look like it's institutional. But, importantly, these four teams were winning and competing before with the same grant-in-aid model. That points to an ever-restrictive AI as being the largest component of the issue. Not that scholarships aren't a factor, but AI appears to be a huge component.

In the past five year, I see both sides of the restrictions as a vise. One is a restrictive AI, and the other is a lack of full scholarships. I continue to believe, though, that the "right" AI, combined with athletic scholarships, will mean better athletes, better students, and teams that can really compete for a title.

So my short answer to your post is, I don't think it's a function of putting AI over scholarships. Rather, both need(ed) reform. Now that the AI is reformed, scholarships (hopefully) can be implemented in some degree after this recruiting season...

[Fordham]

Thanks for the reply.



It was my impression that the standardization of the AI rules and the future of athletic scholarships for PL football are linked - that scholarships weren't going to get done without AI reform. Personally I am hoping that this is the case, and that scholarships in football are the next step.

When were these two issues ever linked? In all of the threads we've had over and over on this issue, I've never heard anything tying to the two together. And why would they be linked anyway? Scholarships have to do with competitiveness with the rest of the subdivision, being consistent in treating football as the PL does other major sports as well as allowing schools to get the most for the $$ they spend on the sport. None of that is impacted by how the league handles the AI issue. I know you're close to the league office so I'm just wondering whether or not this is just "spin" coming from there unless I'm missing something and you can tell me of a more substantive reason why the two "are linked."



To me, it is clear that the AI was a very pressing issue. Across the board the PL has not been as strong as it was in the late nineties/early noghties. Back then, wins against the NEC and Pioneer were expected, and we made great challenges at the elite of the A-10 (now CAA). Now, the PL has become first round fodder and haven't won a playoff game since that magical 2003 run by Colgate.

Odd to me that we all seem to agree that the NEC offering scholarships was what allowed them to pass us so quickly and instead of responding by also offering scholarships, we blame the AI. Imo it's clear that scholarships are the means by which we will become more competitive with the rest of FCS. AI moreso addresses internal league competitiveness.



Furthermore, as the other posts on this thread demonstrate, G'Town went from being a team on the rise to a team in serious decline over those past five years. They were the worst example, but that's not the only decline. In 2003, Colgate went undefeated and beat an FBS team. In 2007, a Fordham team won the PL who lost to the PFL champion. In 2008, a Colgate team lost to Stony Brook and Furman, while needing a miracle play to beat Coastal Carolina.

Let me play DFW here and ask when it was that G-town's ascendance was thwarted by the AI? I know we all feel like they could be a great team given the draw of the school but I don't remember when it was that they were close enough to being on the cusp of breaking through that we'd actually reference it as a key reason why it's indicative of how burdensome the AI is. I agree it's a huge challenge for them but the fact that they spend so much less than the rest of the schools in the conference is just as likely to be the culprit. Additionally, they have the benefit of at least having the cache that comes from being the top ranked school academically in the conference.



How much is scholarships, how much is AI, and how much is institutional? Hard to say exactly. Since Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham and Colgate were winning championships before, it doesn't look like it's institutional. But, importantly, these four teams were winning and competing before with the same grant-in-aid model. That points to an ever-restrictive AI as being the largest component of the issue. Not that scholarships aren't a factor, but AI appears to be a huge component. I disagree with your confidence level in the role that AI plays. Now, you may be right but I think there's just as strong an argument that the PL has been standing still while others have passed it by. The introduction of an entire Northeast-based conference offering scholarships has certainly had an effect on our ability to recruit. Any "slide" versus where we were could either be due to a more competitive recruiting environment or else a perception that we've slid since we started losing to schools like Albany, Stony Brook and CCSU (schools that we now know can compete with all of FCS).




4) In theory, a standard AI with a hard floor favors Georgetown -- should they elect to use it. Why? Simply because the hard floor is well below two standard deviations of the median of their incoming classes.

Let's look at G'Town's numbers for a moment, with 1395 as their class median. In the "old days", almost all of their incoming football class had to have (say) 1300 and above just to get in - and if so, they would need a (say) 1500 football player in at the same time to put the numbers right.

With the banding system in place, Georgetown can actually put resources into recruiting "lower band" football players if they want to. Before, they needed to broadly look at only 1300 kids and above. Now? They CAN recruit a 1200 kid that they think can handle the coursework if they want to - up to three athletes in the lowest band. This is a huge change.

This demonstrates how Georgetown's recruting pool has increased significantly with the new AI rules - again, if they choose to use it. It also explains the reason why Harvard, Yale and Princeton have gone from being the dregs of the Ivy League in football to perennial title contenders.


In going back to this, my belief is that as G-town's recruiting pool has increased significantly, so Fordham's will decrease. Perhaps it won't be one to one but there will be a squeeze that we will feel and it will also result in us having the additional obstacle of being the school that is forced to recruit football players that are better academically versus the rest of their peers at their school than any other PL school will have to. Is that not accurate?

[colorless raider]

Good Story. I believe an argument is beginning to build that shows the problems at G-town are more related to coaching and administrative support, rather then AI mandated by the league.

Here is a solid Patriot League player who may have attended Georgetown if the offer was made. I'm sure the Hoyas could desperatly use an O-linemen of your son's caliber.

OL Pop is right and his son is a good player.

[colorless raider]

... and also likely explains why Dartmouth and Cornell are moreso bottom feeders in the current Ivy league whereas they were at or near the top of the league back when the Ivies calculated AI on a school by school basis versus league wide.

And since G-town is going to most benefit from this move you would therefore assume there is a team who is going to find it detrimental, correct?

I hope we enjoyed our two titles in this decade because if we remain the PL, those will likely be the last ones we'll see.

LFN, check my thinking here b/c I'm doing my best to not over react. But we basically have a situation where a) the league chose to "step up" and address this issue instead of actually stepping up to (what I, at least, certainly perceive as) a bigger priority in scholarships and b) this will have a dramatic impact on our competitiveness.

Assuming my thinking is correct you're reading the first post in my "Fordham must leave the PL" campaign, fellas.

Bottom line it is "fairer" in the league but we will suffer outside the league in terms of recruiting and hence victories outside the league. Not good. SCHOLARSHIPS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

When were these two issues ever linked? In all of the threads we've had over and over on this issue, I've never heard anything tying to the two together. And why would they be linked anyway? Scholarships have to do with competitiveness with the rest of the subdivision, being consistent in treating football as the PL does other major sports as well as allowing schools to get the most for the $$ they spend on the sport. None of that is impacted by how the league handles the AI issue. I know you're close to the league office so I'm just wondering whether or not this is just "spin" coming from there unless I'm missing something and you can tell me of a more substantive reason why the two "are linked."

I'm going by my recollection of my discussions of the issue with PL staff, who at the very least intimated that they were linked. It could have been spin, but I'm not so sure.

Remember, the AI "issue" is one that is league-wide and affects other sports too for the all-sports members. That could be why it was put on the front-burner over a football-specific item like scholarships. But I also believe that there was a sense that they needed all the schools on the same page in terms of the academic rules before tackling football scholarships - and expansion.


Odd to me that we all seem to agree that the NEC offering scholarships was what allowed them to pass us so quickly and instead of responding by also offering scholarships, we blame the AI. Imo it's clear that scholarships are the means by which we will become more competitive with the rest of FCS. AI moreso addresses internal league competitiveness.

I agree with everything you've said here. But to expand on it, I'd also like to emphasize that it seems like only the top of the NEC (Albany, and arguably CCSU and Monmouth, too) may have "passed" the PL. I think the rest of the teams are more muddling through, and are at best equal to the PL. The NEC has shown one team to be a potential powerhouse with scholarships; for the other teams, the jury is clearly still out.


Let me play DFW here and ask when it was that G-town's ascendance was thwarted by the AI? I know we all feel like they could be a great team given the draw of the school but I don't remember when it was that they were close enough to being on the cusp of breaking through that we'd actually reference it as a key reason why it's indicative of how burdensome the AI is. I agree it's a huge challenge for them but the fact that they spend so much less than the rest of the schools in the conference is just as likely to be the culprit. Additionally, they have the benefit of at least having the cache that comes from being the top ranked school academically in the conference.

With these institutional reasons for lack of competitiveness you get these type of chicken-egg questions. Is G'Town hurt by institutional issues, or the AI? It's awful hard to pinpoint. But IMO I think the AI played an inordinate role in their inability to break through - mostly because I look at Harvard under the "old" AI, and their inability to compete.


I disagree with your confidence level in the role that AI plays. Now, you may be right but I think there's just as strong an argument that the PL has been standing still while others have passed it by. The introduction of an entire Northeast-based conference offering scholarships has certainly had an effect on our ability to recruit. Any "slide" versus where we were could either be due to a more competitive recruiting environment or else a perception that we've slid since we started losing to schools like Albany, Stony Brook and CCSU (schools that we now know can compete with all of FCS).

I agree with everything you said here. And you can add to this the loosening of aid from the Ivy League, too - meaning, the aid isn't set at the league level anymore, but at the discretion of the member institutions. There's more free education out there for everyone, and it's not just the NEC's football scholarships.

But to a man every Patriot League football coach has mentioned how challenging it is with the rising AI numbers over time. Colgate used to get kids with a 3.2 average - now it's 3.6. I suspect as well Fordham's standards are increasing, too. The pool - on a league-wide level - is decreasing, because the old AI system had a "virtual soft floor" that kept rising as incoming classes' grades got better. In order to work, the AI needs a hard floor, IMO.


In going back to this, my belief is that as G-town's recruiting pool has increased significantly, so Fordham's will decrease. Perhaps it won't be one to one but there will be a squeeze that we will feel and it will also result in us having the additional obstacle of being the school that is forced to recruit football players that are better academically versus the rest of their peers at their school than any other PL school will have to. Is that not accurate?

If you mean that now Lehigh and Georgetown could now compete with Fordham for some recruits, the answer is yes, your "pool" could decrease somewhat. But it's my impression that you'll still be able to recruit the same athletes as before. I'm real unclear if Fordham will encounter a "reverse straitjacket" effect on football recruiting, but right now I'm tilting in the "no" direction.

One more thought to consider here. With scholarships, the pool of recruits increases a lot more, too. Scholarships changes the math of the AI - because the pool increases, it's easier to get higher academic kids. That's been proven in every PL sport that has offered scholarships.

[ngineer]

Going to scholarships easily increases the pool of academic excellence. Wrestling has shown that as well. The wrestling team's academics have risen significantly since scholarships were allowed, as well as it's quality of wrestling.

[Franks Tanks]

Going to scholarships easily increases the pool of academic excellence. Wrestling has shown that as well. The wrestling team's academics have risen significantly since scholarships were allowed, as well as it's quality of wrestling.

When did lehigh institute wrestling scholly's and what was the aid structure like before that point?

[Go...gate]

I believe that a PL with scholarships would be stronger, just as hoops as been helped. We will never have a GSU or App State, winning multiple titles over consecutive years, but we will definitely be much more competitive with the CAA and SoCon.

[ngineer]

When did lehigh institute wrestling scholly's and what was the aid structure like before that point?


Lehigh went to non-need based scholarships around the mid to late '90's when a bunch of wrestling alums put up the money to endow the scholarship fund. For about 10 years the program floundered as it was unable to recruit the quality of wrestler needed if the school wanted to truly be competitive in 'big time' NCAA Division 1 wrestling. One school, Iowa via Dan Gable openly challenged Lehigh to decide what it wanted to be, indicating that unless the program improved he wouldn't schedule Lehigh any more, i.e. in 1990 and 1991 Iowa beat Lehigh by scores of 42-4 and 49-2. We went 13 straight years without beating Penn State. The handwriting was on the wall-either drop down to D-II or change the philosophy on scholarships. Once recruiting had fully kicked in--basically the last 10 years, the record speaks for itself with a sterling dual meet record, but more importantly, making noise, again, at the NCAA Tournament. Yes, there was some slippage the past two years, but that happens every so often and as this year shows, with a rejuvenated program and new head coach great momentum is occuring. From 2000-2008, Lehigh attained 6 Top 10 finishes in the country leading all eastern schools (Penn State had 3).
Academically, the wrestling teams' grades are so much better than the were 10-30 years ago.