Rumors about VMI

[Tealblood]

I heard this morning from a friend that VMI was looking to drop 3 sports due to a multitude of funding problems

the other option was they might drop 1--get rid of scholarships for football

the guy I was talking to seems to know what he is talking about

just wondering if anybody else had heard this

[appfan2008]

had not heard that... sure would be sad if they did but talk about an awful football program... they just put together a nice year (for them) but overall they are really bad...

[Tealblood]

despite the asswhippin they put on us this year they have been bad for a while

[UAalum72]

VMI can't drop three sports without going D-II. They only sponsor 16, and 14 are required to maintain Division I status.

[Tealblood]

maybe they are heading to D-II then

don't know just reporting what I heard

[citdog]

Websters defines VMI as follows

VMI- A "Military" College in Virginia burnt to the ground by the invading Yankee Horde during The War AGAINST The States and unfortunately rebuilt afterwards.

[Tealblood]

I thought that was the wikipedia definitionxlolx xsmiley_wix

[bluehenbillk]

Wait, VMI offers football scholarships currently?? You wouldn't know it from watching them play over the past decade or two.

[danefan]

Wait, VMI offers football scholarships currently?? You wouldn't know it from watching them play over the past decade or two.

Don't tell that to the Liberty fans.....they were hanging their playoff hats on a win at VMI.....xrolleyesx

[Millwoch]

?????????They should have never dropped out of the SOCON...

I heard they have done very well with their foundation...where is that money?

[Tealblood]

reality was they were hemorhaging cash for a long time and could not handle the "arms race" in the SOCON

[Tealblood]

unfortunately for them thanks to us and Liberty the same thing is happening to them in the big south

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't know where this stands currently, but VMI for a while has been rumored to be thinking about joining the Patriot League in all sports.

Pros: VMI would love to hobnob with Army/Navy in all sports.

Cons: Lexington, VA would be very far south in the PL footprint, and trips to Worcester, MA and Hamilton, NY may be rough on the budget - certainly more expensive than trips to their current BSC brethren (Winthrop, Liberty, CCU, G-W, etc.).

If what is said about funding of scholarships is true, then the leadership MAY think that they could cut some funding for football scholarships and still stay "competitive" with other PL schools using the grants-in-aid model.
If that is true, a possible dealbreaker would be the intent for the PL leadership to announce that they are allowing football scholarships (if that's what they truly intend to do).

As for the PL's perspective, how does VMI improve the conference? More stability; more of an "armed forces" tilt, not a bad thing. But VMI's sports haven't exactly been great across the board. And if VMI is joining the PL to "save money" - that's exactly the sort of expansion that the league should avoid.

I'm not sure what VMI will do or what their intent is, but the PL may be a part of their discussion.

[Go...gate]

They have definitely been one of the schools the PL has looked at as candidates for expansion. However, it does enlarge the conference's geographical footprint at a time where everybody is trying to cut travel costs.

[Millwoch]

I don't buy that...Similar size schools are doing just fine in the socon. And the conference money to respective schools is much higher in the Socon than Big South(thanks to better tv deals and Davidson for an improbable NCAA basketball tourney run last year) Interesting thing is VMI would be very competitive in all sports except football in the socon. Their Basketball and baseball programs have been very good.

What I do not understand is why VMI alums are such poor supporters of their athletic program financially. They support their school in every other way. But their fund raising for athletics tends to fall behind. Why is this? Am I off on my perception?

I can only speak of the program I know best. The Citadel Football Association (a club whose sole purpose is to support the football program and its needs)has raised over $200,000 in less than 3 years for new locker rooms, paint in stadium, pratice field, XOS system, etc. Our program was as low as theirs just 3 years ago...not saying we are there yet, but we are better. All of this is separate of scholarship money raised by The Brigadier Foundation.

I have a hard time believing they are that bad off...any Keydets in the know?

[IaaScribe]

In all of my discussions with VMI's A.D., they're very happy in the Big South because it's given them an opportunity to be competitive in just about every sport, save for football. They also like the flexibility of only having five conference games, because there are a lot of teams that they try to play on a yearly basis (Richmond, W&M, El Cid, JMU being a few of them).

I don't think it was the arms race, as much. VMI has a very affluent donor base, especially in the Richmond area. (Trust me, I played in a golf outing with several of them at one of the nation's top 30 courses, and made my only birdie of the summer. :) ). I'm not sure there's any way that donor base will allow football to go non-scholly.

They also like having some quick trips for the non-rev sports, because Radford and Liberty are both easy day trips, and even trips to High Point and Winthrop and Asheville aren't that difficult.

Not trying to devalue any rumors, just trying to put out there what I know about the situation.

[IaaScribe]

Millwoch ... VMI has added a new practice facility and weight room in the last couple of years, so the donors are donating.

[Millwoch]

good to hear...I would hate for them to even consider Division II. They are too competitive in other sports...Ranked 21 in mid-major basketball poll this week...not to shabby.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

I don't know where this stands currently, but VMI for a while has been rumored to be thinking about joining the Patriot League in all sports.

Pros: VMI would love to hobnob with Army/Navy in all sports.

Cons: Lexington, VA would be very far south in the PL footprint, and trips to Worcester, MA and Hamilton, NY may be rough on the budget - certainly more expensive than trips to their current BSC brethren (Winthrop, Liberty, CCU, G-W, etc.).

If what is said about funding of scholarships is true, then the leadership MAY think that they could cut some funding for football scholarships and still stay "competitive" with other PL schools using the grants-in-aid model.
If that is true, a possible dealbreaker would be the intent for the PL leadership to announce that they are allowing football scholarships (if that's what they truly intend to do).

As for the PL's perspective, how does VMI improve the conference? More stability; more of an "armed forces" tilt, not a bad thing. But VMI's sports haven't exactly been great across the board. And if VMI is joining the PL to "save money" - that's exactly the sort of expansion that the league should avoid.

I'm not sure what VMI will do or what their intent is, but the PL may be a part of their discussion.

Don't forget another all sports member that plays football and has the same philosophy as the other PL schools. IMO, that's would be a huge plus for the Patriot.

Frankly, I think they'd drop right down to D-III rather than D-II because there are more like minded schools at that level, including one across town. I don't think a drop is happening, just saying in many cases D-II isn't logical.

[2xspyder]

I wonder about the possibility that VMI would stay D-1 in all sports except football, dropping that program to D-111. The ODAC is an outstanding D-111 football conference and the teams are all in VA except for Catholic and Guilford. Can this be done?

[danefan]

I wonder about the possibility that VMI would stay D-1 in all sports except football, dropping that program to D-111. The ODAC is an outstanding D-111 football conference and the teams are all in VA except for Catholic and Guilford. Can this be done?

Cannot be done. Division I in all sports must football at a DI level if football is sponsored by the school. It doesn't have to be scholarship football, but you must play at least 5 or 6 DI games I think.

[Wmbgskip]

That D-III across town is more like "That D-3 on the other side of the lawn in front of the barracks." W&L is on one side of the hilltop, VMI on the other.

--Skip

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Cannot be done. Division I in all sports must football at a DI level if football is sponsored by the school. It doesn't have to be scholarship football, but you must play at least 5 or 6 DI games I think.

Something like that. Isn't it the Dayton Rule and why we have the Pioneer League today? And indirectly the reason we no longer have football programs at Siena, Fairfield, Iona, Lasalle, etc. ?

[UAalum72]

Something like that. Isn't it the Dayton Rule and why we have the Pioneer League today? And indirectly the reason we no longer have football programs at Siena, Fairfield, Iona, Lasalle, etc. ?
Yes on the Dayton rule. No on the MAAC - their budgets weren't a lot more than D-III and they still dropped their programs (Siena was about $200,000/year)

[DFW HOYA]

Cannot be done. Division I in all sports must football at a DI level if football is sponsored by the school. It doesn't have to be scholarship football, but you must play at least 5 or 6 DI games I think.

A school can apply for a waiver from the six team requirement. For example, Davidson played mostly D-III opponents well into the 1990's.

[Franks Tanks]

Don't forget another all sports member that plays football and has the same philosophy as the other PL schools. IMO, that's would be a huge plus for the Patriot.

Frankly, I think they'd drop right down to D-III rather than D-II because there are more like minded schools at that level, including one across town. I don't think a drop is happening, just saying in many cases D-II isn't logical.

VMI Football as it stands now would only win one or two games a year in the PL. If they think they will reduce funding and be competitive in PL football they are sorely mistaken.

[Biff]

I agree. VMI should keep working to stay where they are. They have a good alumni base for keeping it going, but I think like The Citadel is doing, has to come up with better or new ways to fund raise.

[DFW HOYA]

VMI Football as it stands now would only win one or two games a year in the PL. If they think they will reduce funding and be competitive in PL football they are sorely mistaken.

VMI's current funding on football would rank it 7th in an eight team PL. The Patriot League (north of the Mason-Dixon line, anyway) is fast becoming among the the highest budget I-AA conferences in the nation.

[Biff]

VMI's current funding on football would rank it 7th in an eight team PL. The Patriot League (north of the Mason-Dixon line, anyway) is fast becoming among the the highest budget I-AA conferences in the nation.

What are y'all spending money on if you are not giving Football scholarships?

[Franks Tanks]

What are y'all spending money on if you are not giving Football scholarships?

The need based financial aid is considered FB scholarships by the NCAA. Lafayette curently costs 45k per year and we fund the equilivant of about 50 scholarships.

[Biff]

The need based financial aid is considered FB scholarships by the NCAA. Lafayette curently costs 45k per year and we fund the equilivant of about 50 scholarships.

In terms of what a scholarship costs, is not a factor I had thought about in costs. Good to know.

[Franks Tanks]

In terms of what a scholarship costs, is not a factor I had thought about in costs. Good to know.

There are of course many questions regarding the vaildity of the reported funding levels of FB programs in these reports, but its all we got. Also I dont believe we have ever been able to confirm exactly what costs are included in the reports. For example stadium maintence can be considered a part of the cost to run a program, but nobody has been able to confirm if such costs are included in the numbers.

[Biff]

That would be a big question. You would think that information would be readily available, but it's all about politics.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There are of course many questions regarding the vaildity of the reported funding levels of FB programs in these reports, but its all we got. Also I dont believe we have ever been able to confirm exactly what costs are included in the reports. For example stadium maintence can be considered a part of the cost to run a program, but nobody has been able to confirm if such costs are included in the numbers.

My impression of these numbers is that they're all over the map. For example, UMass throws everything and the kitchen sink in their expense numbers - and have used those numbers to say, "See? We need to go to FBS to be able to pay for (popcorn vendors, band costs, parking upgrades)". The trouble is, an expense like "parking upgrades" actually affect lots of sports, not just football - so in most schools it's called a "generic athletics expense".

It's accounting tricks - but as Frank's Tanks said, it's all we got. xrotatehx

[Silenoz]

I thought that was the wikipedia definitionxlolx xsmiley_wix

I think you mean Urban Dictionary xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

What are y'all spending money on if you are not giving Football scholarships?

Georgetown has the largest budget of any I-AA school, $28 million. And outside the Ivies, it sponsors more sports than anyone else in I-AA (29).

The short answer to your question: the Big East mandates scholarship minimums by sport.

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

And to think VMI were once conference champs competing against the likes of UNC-Chapel Hill, NC State, Clemson, and South Carolina. But that was a long time ago. xnonono2x

[Franks Tanks]

And to think VMI were once conference champs competing against the likes of UNC-Chapel Hill, NC State, Clemson, and South Carolina. But that was a long time ago. xnonono2x

Yes it was. The FB landscape has changed quite a bit. The University of Chicago was once in the Big 10 and the University of the South in the SEC. Patriot and Ivy teams were national powers. Then big money changed everything.

[elcid96]

Will the BIG SOUTH Conference then be called the itty bittly little south conference?

[danefan]

Will the BIG SOUTH Conference then be called the itty bittly little south conference?

If VMI left, you'd see SBU out the door as well. If VMI left the Big South would no longer qualify for an AQ in 2010.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If VMI left, you'd see SBU out the door as well. If VMI left the Big South would no longer qualify for an AQ in 2010.

This is one of the reasons why I don't think VMI will be leaving. Granted, VMI is no stranger to bridge-burning (see: SoCon), but I don't think they will leave the BSC with an autobid so close for the conference.

[elon77]

Isn't VMI the northern division of The Citadel?xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Tealblood]

This is one of the reasons why I don't think VMI will be leaving. Granted, VMI is no stranger to bridge-burning (see: SoCon), but I don't think they will leave the BSC with an autobid so close for the conference.


this is the part of that rumor that flew by me and my peeps

[Tealblood]

and to comment further the model they would be following is more of the Davidson model more than the Patriot

[Biff]

Isn't VMI the northern division of The Citadel?xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

They don't deserve such prestige.

[Go...gate]

and to comment further the model they would be following is more of the Davidson model more than the Patriot

Hmmmmm. Pioneer League, maybe?

They could stay in the BSC for everything else. No more football games with Army and Navy, though (they won't play equivalencies and non-scholarship schools, which are not NCAA "Counters" for Bowl eligibility), which would not be good for the Keydets.

[keydet71]

Fascinating postings here and not one reply via a VMI person, so let me help you and advise there is no truth to the premise of this 5 page discussion. With a 2009 schedule that has back to back games with UR and JMU plus the BS games and Army, downgrading is the furtherest thing from our minds.

[Biff]

Fascinating postings here and not one reply via a VMI person, so let me help you and advise there is no truth to the premise of this 5 page discussion. With a 2009 schedule that has back to back games with UR and JMU plus the BS games and Army, downgrading is the furtherest thing from our minds.

Good to hear xthumbsupx

[JMU DUUUKES]

With a 2009 schedule that has back to back games with UR and JMU

Man why would you do that to yourself. xsmiley_wix

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fascinating postings here and not one reply via a VMI person, so let me help you and advise there is no truth to the premise of this 5 page discussion. With a 2009 schedule that has back to back games with UR and JMU plus the BS games and Army, downgrading is the furtherest thing from our minds.


With a 2009 schedule that has back to back games with UR and JMU.. Man why would you do that to yourself. xsmiley_wix

Look at the bright side... at least they have a shot for a win against Army.

*rimshot*

[Tealblood]

Fascinating postings here and not one reply via a VMI person, so let me help you and advise there is no truth to the premise of this 5 page discussion. With a 2009 schedule that has back to back games with UR and JMU plus the BS games and Army, downgrading is the furtherest thing from our minds.


then which 3 sports are you thinking about dropping

cause that was the option drop 3 sports or downgrade football to non-schollie

[Biff]

then which 3 sports are you thinking about dropping

cause that was the option drop 3 sports or downgrade football to non-schollie

I wonder if your rumor is similar to what The Citadel did a few years back. We had to drop men's Soccer and men's Golf. It had to do with funding and some sort of female thing (?Title 9?). Having females at the school, the athletic department had to offer a number of female sports, but unfortunatley for us, none of it was porportional to the number of females on campus. We currently have a Women's Track, Volleyball, Soccer, Rifle, Cross Country, and Golf team. We have over 50% of our female cadet population playing sports.

We have 8 men's sports to complete the 14 sport requirment for D-I.

[Tealblood]

could be

maybe they are gonna be adding back some womens sports

[DetroitFlyer]

then which 3 sports are you thinking about dropping

cause that was the option drop 3 sports or downgrade football to non-schollie


Just because the model used might change from athletic scholarship to non-atheltic scholarship does not mean that the program has been "downgraded". If VMI is serious, I say welcome to the PFL baby!! ?VMI/Davidson, VMI/Jacksonville, VMI/Campbell.... Heck, I think VMI might even be able to win one of those three games....

[Biff]

Just because the model used might change from athletic scholarship to non-atheltic scholarship does not mean that the program has been "downgraded". If VMI is serious, I say welcome to the PFL baby!! ?VMI/Davidson, VMI/Jacksonville, VMI/Campbell.... Heck, I think VMI might even be able to win one of those three games....

Win one fo those games? I think VMI played good enough to beat all those teams this year. There program is on an up swing. They are going to be better next year.

[Eagle22]

This is one of the reasons why I don't think VMI will be leaving. Granted, VMI is no stranger to bridge-burning (see: SoCon), but I don't think they will leave the BSC with an autobid so close for the conference.

To be fair, VMI didn't burn the bridge with the SoCon. They floated the idea of sticking around the league for other sports and having their football program exist as Davidson's does ... not a competing member. This was never done 'officially', but they canvassed the membership and found they did not have the necessary support to pull off such a move.

The league membership said no dice, and essentially forced their hand to where VMI moved in the only direction they felt comfortable.

Ironically, the school honking the loudest of the bunch against such an arrangement was ETSU, who would end up dropping football a few years later and would be booted out of the SoCon when their plea to remain w/o football was not supported.

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

I wonder if your rumor is similar to what The Citadel did a few years back. We had to drop men's Soccer and men's Golf. It had to do with funding and some sort of female thing (?Title 9?). Having females at the school, the athletic department had to offer a number of female sports, but unfortunatley for us, none of it was porportional to the number of females on campus. We currently have a Women's Track, Volleyball, Soccer, Rifle, Cross Country, and Golf team. We have over 50% of our female cadet population playing sports.

We have 8 men's sports to complete the 14 sport requirment for D-I.

TITLE 9 xmadx xflamemadx xsplatx xpissedx

[Biff]

TITLE 9 xmadx xflamemadx xsplatx xpissedx

In our case it has handicapped our programs and the school. But, I know they are working through it and time is about the only thing that is needed to over come these difficulties.