SoCon Unseats SWAC for #1 Attendance?

[TexasTerror]

Now that there are no more home games with the completion of the Division I semifinals (the championship is in Chattanooga), I wanted to see which conference reigned supreme, especially in wake of the economic downturn.

Looked at the NCAA attendance report and ran average attendances. Looks like the SoCon averaged 11,537 to 10,409 for the SWAC. Not sure if the Big Sky or CAA was higher than either league, but doubt it.

Also, not sure how the attendance folks spin it, but believe this is fairly accurate. Just the second time in 31 years that the SWAC is not #1. Who was #1 that other time...?

If my math is wrong, please correct me! I didn't get a degree in mathematics.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2008/Internet/attendance/FCS_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

SoCon
25161 App
18168 GA Southern
12261 The Citadel
10073 Furman
9220 Elon
8320 W Carolina
7821 Wofford
7064 Samford
5748 Chattanooga
TOTAL: 103836
AVG: 11,537

SWAC
21263 JSU
16323 Southern
15218 Alabama St
11219 Grambling
9609 UAPB
8100 Alcorn St
7045 Alabama A&M
5440 Prairie View
5185 Valley
4688 Tx Southern
TOTAL: 104090
AVG: 10,409

[Reign of Terrier]

Now that there are no more home games with the completion of the Division I semifinals (the championship is in Chattanooga), I wanted to see which conference reigned supreme, especially in wake of the economic downturn.

Looked at the NCAA attendance report and ran average attendances. Looks like the SoCon averaged 11,537 to 10,409 for the SWAC. Not sure if the Big Sky or CAA was higher than either league, but doubt it.

Also, not sure how the attendance folks spin it, but believe this is fairly accurate. Just the second time in 31 years that the SWAC is not #1. Who was #1 that other time...?

If my math is wrong, please correct me! I didn't get a degree in mathematics.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2008/Internet/attendance/FCS_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

SoCon
25161 App
18168 GA Southern
12261 The Citadel
10073 Furman
9220 Elon
8320 W Carolina
7821 Wofford
7064 Samford
5748 Chattanooga
TOTAL: 103836
AVG: 11,537

SWAC
21263 JSU
16323 Southern
15218 Alabama St
11219 Grambling
9609 UAPB
8100 Alcorn St
7045 Alabama A&M
5440 Prairie View
5185 Valley
4688 Tx Southern
TOTAL: 104090
AVG: 10,409

For the record, Chattanooga's attendance is mostly other teams. a double digit percentage of Wofford's and Samford's is probably opposing teams.

[gophoenix]

Nice to see 2000 extra fans per game in two winning seasons. Was really hoping we'd crack the 10,000 mark. But I guess baby steps.....

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

If Classics would count, it wouldn't even be close. SU takes the blame for this, we had a poor season attendence wise(16323), for our standards.

[Syntax Error]

Of course the Classics are left out of this total. Like they didn't exist. xsmhx

Just call it what it is, HOME/CAMPUS field attendance.

[Grizaholic17]

Of course the Classics are left out of this total. Like they didn't exist. xsmhx

Just call it what it is, HOME/CAMPUS field attendance.

I would like to congratulate the SoCon on this achievement.

[Syntax Error]

"SoCon Unseats SWAC for #1 Attendance?"

This question as it is stated is a resounding NO.

[Shellin]

Even if they didn't count the classics in this what shouldn't be lost is that the SoCon got great support from their fans this season, and no matter how you slice it, that is great.

[TexasTerror]

Of course the Classics are left out of this total. Like they didn't exist. xsmhx

Just call it what it is, HOME/CAMPUS field attendance.

Why should the Classics be counted? This is about home attendance and unless the Classics are held at home, who are you going to reward as the home team? And got to keep in mind, there's quite a few games that are Div I vs Div II or what not.

When Texas Southern and Shaw played a game halfway across the US from their hometowns, who has the home game? When Prairie View and Grambling play in Dallas, does the "closer school' get the home game? The list goes on.

The SWAC has talked about having the top attendance every year using the same standards that I did. When they got knocked out of the top spot for the second time in 31 years, people are complaining about the format. Don't see what the problem is...

We know the SWAC brings in the most fans on the grand scale, but home attendance -- that's a different issue.

[OL FU]

Why should the Classics be counted? This is about home attendance and unless the Classics are held at home, who are you going to reward as the home team? And got to keep in mind, there's quite a few games that are Div I vs Div II or what not.

When Texas Southern and Shaw played a game halfway across the US from their hometowns, who has the home game? When Prairie View and Grambling play in Dallas, does the "closer school' get the home game? The list goes on.

The SWAC has talked about having the top attendance every year using the same standards that I did. When they got knocked out of the top spot for the second time in 31 years, people are complaining about the format. Don't see what the problem is...

We know the SWAC brings in the most fans on the grand scale, but home attendance -- that's a different issue.


I think measuring by "home" attendance is important, so I don't see the problem with saying the home attendance is higher for SoCon teams. But there is truly no way we compete with overall.

Wofford and Furman playing in Detroit would be similar to asking the age old question about a tree falling in the woods:o

[ASUG8]

I can only speak for App, but they if you take the sum stad capacity/8 games, they are still reflecting our former seating capacity of 16,650 instead of the additional 4,400 seats available this season.
It should be interesting to see if we're able to fill it up next year with our early exit this year. We'll have Samford, WCU, UTC, and GaSo at home next year and what I'll assume to be the tougher conference games away. On the bright side, I'll be able to drive less than :30 min to see ASU/FU and ASU/WoCo, and I've never attended a game at either field.

I'm not ready for basketball season....it's a long way to September....xbawlingx

[appfan2008]

home games are home games... neutral games are a whole different animal..

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree, it's just "Home" attendance that the SoCon "wins" this year - largely due to App's two extra home games in the playoffs, lest we forget.

But that doesn't mean that the SoCon out-draws the SWAC, because if you're competing for the mythical title of "#1 Attendance" for a conference you have to include Classics. Setting aside games like the "Angel City Classic" where Prairie View went to LA to play D-II Morehouse or the "Turkey Day Classic" where Alabama State plays Tuskeegee (where you can't determine which conference gets the credit), there are plenty of "Classics" which are 100% SWAC where you can totally credit the conference ("Bayou Classic", "Capital City Classic", SWAC Championship Game, etc.)

[813Jag]

I agree, it's just "Home" attendance that the SoCon "wins" this year - largely due to App's two extra home games in the playoffs, lest we forget.

But that doesn't mean that the SoCon out-draws the SWAC, because if you're competing for the mythical title of "#1 Attendance" for a conference you have to include Classics. Setting aside games like the "Angel City Classic" where Prairie View went to LA to play D-II Morehouse or the "Turkey Day Classic" where Alabama State plays Tuskeegee (where you can't determine which conference gets the credit), there are plenty of "Classics" which are 100% SWAC where you can totally credit the conference ("Bayou Classic", "Capital City Classic", SWAC Championship Game, etc.)
The Turkey Day classic is Alabama St.'s Homecoming, that's always their game.

Southern lost a home game due to the 4 year deal for the Gulf Coast Classic. I wish home attendance was higher, especially for the UAPB game.

[OL FU]

I agree, it's just "Home" attendance that the SoCon "wins" this year - largely due to App's two extra home games in the playoffs, lest we forget.

But that doesn't mean that the SoCon out-draws the SWAC, because if you're competing for the mythical title of "#1 Attendance" for a conference you have to include Classics. Setting aside games like the "Angel City Classic" where Prairie View went to LA to play D-II Morehouse or the "Turkey Day Classic" where Alabama State plays Tuskeegee (where you can't determine which conference gets the credit), there are plenty of "Classics" which are 100% SWAC where you can totally credit the conference ("Bayou Classic", "Capital City Classic", SWAC Championship Game, etc.)

I agree. I don't think you can discount the ability of the SWAC teams to draw nationally. I don't care how good some of the SoCon teams are, there is no way you take any of them far from home territory and have those types of ticket sales.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I decided to crunch the numbers, just to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to assert that the SoCon is "#1 in Attendance":

SoCon
25161 App
18168 GA Southern
12261 The Citadel
10073 Furman
9220 Elon
8320 W Carolina
7821 Wofford
7064 Samford
5748 Chattanooga
TOTAL: 103836
AVG: 11,537

SWAC
Neutral All-SWAC Classics:
54315 State Fair Classic
19514 Labor Day Classic
69113 Magic City Classic
15500 Literacy Classic
33005 Capital City Classic
14522 Lone Star Classic
59874 Bayou Classic
25873 SWAC Championship Game (SWAC Postseason)

Home Game Averages:
21263 JSU
16323 Southern
15218 Alabama St
11219 Grambling
9609 UAPB
8100 Alcorn St
7045 Alabama A&M
5440 Prairie View
5185 Valley
4688 Tx Southern

Home Game Totals:
TOTAL: 104090
AVG: 10,409

Home Game Totals Plus All-SWAC Classics/Championship Game:
TOTAL: 395,806
AVG: 39,581

Remember, this doesn't count ANY games where a SWAC team is playing a HBCU from another conference like the MEAC, OVC or SIAC. You could easily include 50% of the attendances of THOSE games (conservatively estimating that the presence of the SWAC team is responsible for 50% of the attendance) and get a much higher number. The 39,581 number, therefore is an extremely *low* estimate - and nearly FOUR TIMES TIMES the OVERALL attendance for the SoCon and more than 2 1/2 TIMES the average attendance per team.

[813Jag]

I decided to crunch the numbers, just to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to assert that the SoCon is "#1 in Attendance":

SoCon
25161 App
18168 GA Southern
12261 The Citadel
10073 Furman
9220 Elon
8320 W Carolina
7821 Wofford
7064 Samford
5748 Chattanooga
TOTAL: 103836
AVG: 11,537

SWAC
Neutral All-SWAC Classics:
14522 State Fair Classic
19514 Labor Day Classic
69113 Magic City Classic
15500 Literacy Classic
33005 Capital City Classic
59874 Bayou Classic
25873 SWAC Championship Game (SWAC Postseason)

Home Game Averages:
21263 JSU
16323 Southern
15218 Alabama St
11219 Grambling
9609 UAPB
8100 Alcorn St
7045 Alabama A&M
5440 Prairie View
5185 Valley
4688 Tx Southern

Home Game Totals:
TOTAL: 104090
AVG: 10,409

Home Game Totals Plus All-SWAC Classics/Championship Game:
TOTAL: 341491
AVG: 34,149

Remember, this doesn't count ANY games where a SWAC team is playing a HBCU from another conference like the MEAC, OVC or SIAC. You could easily include 50% of the attendances of THOSE games (conservatively estimating that the presence of the SWAC team is responsible for 50% of the attendance) and get a much higher number. The 34,149 number, therefore is an extremely *low* estimate - and more than THREE TIMES the OVERALL attendance for the SoCon and more than TWICE the average attendance per team.
That's gotta be a typo for the State Fair Classic.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's gotta be a typo for the State Fair Classic.

Thanks, I fixed it in the post above. There were two classics in Dallas, I picked the wrong one from the attendance site. My source is the one TT quotes:

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2008/Internet/attendance/FCS_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

Actually, the 14522 was from the Ark-PB/Texas Southern Classic to end the year! Forgot about the Lone Star Classic - that's been added too.

[813Jag]

Thanks, I fixed it in the post above. There were two classics in Dallas, I picked the wrong one from the attendance site. My source is the one TT quotes:

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2008/Internet/attendance/FCS_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

Actually, the 14522 was from the Ark-PB/Texas Southern Classic to end the year! Forgot about the Lone Star Classic - that's been added too.
No problem, just realized that number looked low for that game.

[texcap]

I agree, it's just "Home" attendance that the SoCon "wins" this year - largely due to App's two extra home games in the playoffs, lest we forget.



I am undecided about whther "Classics" which are neutral games should be counted or not. However you are wrong on the statement I quoted above. Remember we are talking aboout average attendance, not total attendance. Appalachian's playoff games actually lowered their average home attendance because both playoff games were the two lowest attended games of the year. Without the playoff games Appalachian would have had an average attendance of a little less than 29,000; with the playoff games (which averaged about 14,500) it brought the season average down to the 25,000 number that was used in the first post of this thread.

[MSU_77]

Just for fun, I calculated the Southland's average. UCA is not listed in the official stats probably because they are still in transition, but their average was around 11K. It's apparent that a couple of schools' attendance drags down the conference average by a lot.

McNeese 13,829
SW Texas 11,225
Central Arkansas 11,000
Sam Houston 10,076
Northwestern St. 8,615
SF Austin 8,577
Nicholls St. 5,868
SE Louisiana 5,441

Average 9,329

[Rekdiver]

This has no bearing on the fate of the world.....

If someone attends a game count the attendance. Neutral fields shouldnt matter. No need to spin attendance.

I don't care if we have 10 people in the stands. It's all about the ring.

[PhoenixPhan06]

Nice to see 2000 extra fans per game in two winning seasons. Was really hoping we'd crack the 10,000 mark. But I guess baby steps.....

Our attendance was great during the first three home games then somehow we had a drop off until Homecoming. We had 10,000+ in half of our entire home slate and I'm not sure if we had that much for an entire season once or twice when I was there from 02-06.

It's definetly an exciting time right now for Elon Football, I just wish more people in the area would realize that and fill up Rhodes Stadium on a more consistant basis.

2009 should be another good season for attendance with the ASU game thats sure to be a sell out, GSU which has potential for a growing rivalry and The Citadel, FINALLY!

[DSUrocks07]

This has no bearing on the fate of the world.....

If someone attends a game count the attendance. Neutral fields shouldnt matter. No need to spin attendance.

I don't care if we have 10 people in the stands. It's all about the ring.

If a tree falls in the woods....xwhistlex

The fact is that if you don't have fans supporting your respective athletic programs by showing up for the games, (among other things), odds are that you won't have an athletic program for very long...

[813Jag]

If a tree falls in the woods....xwhistlex

The fact is that if you don't have fans supporting your respective athletic programs by showing up for the games, (among other things), odds are that you won't have an athletic program for very long...
Regarding your sig #3 won't work. That's what the Heritage Bowl was pretty much. If the school from the #3 SWAC team or #3 MEAC team doesn't travel well, the game is toast.

[neersnbeers]

If a tree falls in the woods....xwhistlex

The fact is that if you don't have fans supporting your respective athletic programs by showing up for the games, (among other things), odds are that you won't have an athletic program for very long...

Thus our multi million dollar stadium renovations and....... No program problems in the near future as far as I see.
I do see other socon team's attendance rising with App falling in the playoffs and some decent performances out on the season by teams like Samford, Elon, Western.

[DSUrocks07]

Regarding your sig #3 won't work. That's what the Heritage Bowl was pretty much. If the school from the #3 SWAC team or #3 MEAC team doesn't travel well, the game is toast.

Actually this format would virtually guarantee either a Grambling or Southern from the SWAC in the game virtually every year, and it would have been Prairie View this year (Due to them being the #2 team that was not in the SCG - Gram and JSU). And from the MEAC's side it would have been FAMU. That would have been a hell of a game. xthumbsupx

It would also be held the week prior to the SWAC title game not to upstage that game either.

[DSUrocks07]

Thus our multi million dollar stadium renovations and....... No program problems in the near future as far as I see.
I do see other socon team's attendance rising with App falling in the playoffs and some decent performances out on the season by teams like Samford, Elon, Western.

Oh I agree that the fan support for the SoCon is on the rise. xthumbsupx
My comment is also a retrospective on the saying that gets thrown around all too often, "I don't care if there was only 100 in the stands" or some arbitrary number. Because the business side of sports would fall flat on its face without them.

On a personal note I would rather see all of our successful schools in FCS commit to staying here and continue to build up the marquee of college PLAYOFF football. It would be great to see one day FCS getting on a equal playing field (media coverage-wise) as FBS, and maybe bring back some of the former FCS schools into the fold. xwhistlex

[Tod]

Avg. for the Big Sky is 9,393.

UM - 23,923
MSU - 13,406
Sac State - 8,184
PSU - 7,975
NAU - 7,365
WSU - 6,910
EWU - 6,719
ISU - 5,823
UNC - 4,230

Total - 84,535/9 = 9,393.

Interestingly, only two of the nine teams averaged more. xeyebrowx

[DSUrocks07]

Avg. HOME attendance for the MEAC:

1 - FAMU 22104
2 - SCSU 17183
3 - A&T 10764
4 - NSU 10645
5 - NCCU 10196
6 - Hampton 9819
7 - BCU 5494
8 - WSSU 5020
9 - SSU 4818
10 - HU 3933
11 - MSU 3798
12 - DSU 3608 xnonono2x

Current MEAC members:
Total: 92368
Avg: 9237

Including NCCU and SSU:
Total: 107382
Avg: 8949


Included these two as "provisional MEAC members", to show their growing fan support, which is what we need to continue to grow as a conference to survive and thrive.

[WileECoyote06]

Avg. HOME attendance for the MEAC:

1 - FAMU 22104
2 - SCSU 17183
3 - A&T 10764
4 - NSU 10645
5 - NCCU 10196
6 - Hampton 9819
7 - BCU 5494
8 - WSSU 5020
9 - SSU 4818
10 - HU 3933
11 - MSU 3798
12 - DSU 3608 xnonono2x

Current MEAC members:
Total: 92368
Avg: 9237

Including NCCU and SSU:
Total: 107382
Avg: 8949


Included these two as "provisional MEAC members", to show their growing fan support, which is what we need to continue to grow as a conference to survive and thrive.

Those are down years for NSU, A & T, and WSSU. Our numbers are boosted by our home game in Charlotte. The most we've ever averaged is around 8500.

[neersnbeers]

Oh I agree that the fan support for the SoCon is on the rise. xthumbsupx
My comment is also a retrospective on the saying that gets thrown around all too often, "I don't care if there was only 100 in the stands" or some arbitrary number. Because the business side of sports would fall flat on its face without them.

On a personal note I would rather see all of our successful schools in FCS commit to staying here and continue to build up the marquee of college PLAYOFF football. It would be great to see one day FCS getting on a equal playing field (media coverage-wise) as FBS, and maybe bring back some of the former FCS schools into the fold. xwhistlex

Oh I totally agree. A really neat thing one of my good friends that graduated from NCSU shared with me last weekend after the Richmond game. I took him to two games this season, homecoming and the Richmond game. As we were walking back to the car he tells me that he will be purchasing 09 season tickets because he has had more fun and witnessed better football in two games than he had seen at Carter Finley Stadium in his years at State.
He has bought the fact that playoff football is genuine and is the best way to determine a true Champion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Those numbers don't include the Florida Classic... xrulesx ... which, if you're going to include all the all-SWAC neutral site Classics, you should include the Florida Classic (and maybe other classics that escape me).

[DSUrocks07]

Those numbers don't include the Florida Classic... xrulesx ... which, if you're going to include all the all-SWAC neutral site Classics, you should include the Florida Classic (and maybe other classics that escape me).

I believe that the only all-MEAC Classic is the FC, but I may be mistaken.

[appfan2008]

Avg. for the Big Sky is 9,393.

UM - 23,923
MSU - 13,406
Sac State - 8,184
PSU - 7,975
NAU - 7,365
WSU - 6,910
EWU - 6,719
ISU - 5,823
UNC - 4,230

Total - 84,535/9 = 9,393.

Interestingly, only two of the nine teams averaged more. xeyebrowx

your conference has pretty consistent attendance across the board except those montana schools and especially that one still playing... nearly double the second team is amazing...

[813Jag]

Actually this format would virtually guarantee either a Grambling or Southern from the SWAC in the game virtually every year, and it would have been Prairie View this year (Due to them being the #2 team that was not in the SCG - Gram and JSU). And from the MEAC's side it would have been FAMU. That would have been a hell of a game. xthumbsupx

It would also be held the week prior to the SWAC title game not to upstage that game either.
I don't want to hijack this thread but look at the Heritage Bowl in the past Southern went in 93, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99. And attendance declined every year.

The week before thw SCG, won't have many Grambling or Southern people not with the Classic the week before. I'm not trying to shoot down your idea. I'm just anti-Heritage Bowl, I think it's run it's course.

[Syntax Error]

Why should the Classics be counted? This is about home attendance...My comment was that the thread title is a misnomer. Maybe should have been SoCon Unseats SWAC for #1 Home Average Attendance

[brownbear]

Ivy League attendance:

Harvard - 17,360
Penn - 11,284
Yale - 11,071
Princeton - 9,384
Brown - 7,089
Cornell - 7,075
Dartmouth - 5,136
Columbia - 3,827

Average - 9,028

If you take out the Harvard-Yale game, Harvard's attendance goes down to 13,850, and the league-wide attendance drops by 439 people to 8,589. However, if the game was played at the Yale Bowl, where the game would probably draw 50,000, Yale's attendance goes up to 17,559, and the league-wide goes up to 9,839.

Still, good job to Ivy League for keeping its attendance up!

[terrierbob]

For the record, Chattanooga's attendance is mostly other teams. a double digit percentage of Wofford's and Samford's is probably opposing teams.

Iced tea sellers, vendors, the press, hangers on, entourages, stray townspeople, Southern fans mistaking Spartanburg for Greenville, visiting High Schoolers, opposing teams' bands...

[appfan2008]

Ivy League attendance:

Harvard - 17,360
Penn - 11,284
Yale - 11,071
Princeton - 9,384
Brown - 7,089
Cornell - 7,075
Dartmouth - 5,136
Columbia - 3,827

Average - 9,028

If you take out the Harvard-Yale game, Harvard's attendance goes down to 13,850, and the league-wide attendance drops by 439 people to 8,589. However, if the game was played at the Yale Bowl, where the game would probably draw 50,000, Yale's attendance goes up to 17,559, and the league-wide goes up to 9,839.

Still, good job to Ivy League for keeping its attendance up!

amazing how one game can affect the overall attendance so much like that...

[HIU 93]

I believe that the only all-MEAC Classic is the FC, but I may be mistaken.

You are correct. Regarding your sig, hell no. There is no way SSU should be let anywhere near the MEAC.

Oh, yeah- the MEAC is fine, it doesn't need saving.