LFN: Patriot League Looks Up At Richmond And Villanova

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/12/wildcats-whomp-patriot-league-champion.html

It's got to be said. GOT to be said.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

Well said. Your students deserve the scholarships they have earned. So many of them have earned them. Our hats off to your players in the PL.

[Franks Tanks]

Well said. Your students deserve the scholarships they have earned. So many of them have earned them. Our hats off to your players in the PL.

Many (most) PL players get significant aid so its not like the are playing for free. But overall schollys should attrcat better players and athletes and distribute aid easier. Lets do it already.

[Hoyadestroya85]

That's a great piece Chuck.. I totally agree with you
I just think they're using the academic concerns as an excuse for the real problem (title IX compliance)

[DX Man]

That's a great piece Chuck.. I totally agree with you
I just think they're using the academic concerns as an excuse for the real problem (title IX compliance)


BINGO!!!xwhistlex

[Tribe4SF]

Nice read, Chuck. Of course it's been said before, and one has to wonder whether anyone new will listen this time. Throw my Tribe into the discussion (the top APR and graduation team in the CAA, and the most stringent on admissions for athletes), and the PL presidents should be embarrassed by their concerns. Villanova, UR and W&M went a combined 25-6 against FCS competition playing in the toughest league around.

[carney2]

That's a great piece Chuck.. I totally agree with you
I just think they're using the academic concerns as an excuse for the real problem (title IX compliance)

Is this a real concern? Switching from equivalencies to athletic grants would not mean much in the way of free aid being doled out, so ya gotta ask how much difference it would make in Title IX compliance. This is a technicality that others can address much better than yours truly.

The real problem, it seems to me, is internal: the jock vs. academic gown war. Some of these Patriot League presidents would have a great deal of trouble maneuvering football scholarships past the faculties and boards of trustees or other governing bodies who view athletics as the 2,000 pound gorilla that cannot be untethered from its leash. If you're saying to yourself that "they have to have some back bone," bear in mind that they walk a fine line and only have so much political capital to spend. Each has his/her own view as to whether this is where it should be spent.

[Go...gate]

As ever, nice work, LFN.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is this a real concern? Switching from equivalencies to athletic grants would not mean much in the way of free aid being doled out, so ya gotta ask how much difference it would make in Title IX compliance. This is a technicality that others can address much better than yours truly.

The real problem, it seems to me, is internal: the jock vs. academic gown war. Some of these Patriot League presidents would have a great deal of trouble maneuvering football scholarships past the faculties and boards of trustees or other governing bodies who view athletics as the 2,000 pound gorilla that cannot be untethered from its leash. If you're saying to yourself that "they have to have some back bone," bear in mind that they walk a fine line and only have so much political capital to spend. Each has his/her own view as to whether this is where it should be spent.

You're probably right, but that 2,000 pound gorilla is already chucking stuff around the room, if you know what I mean. All other PL sports have scholarships - only football is being discriminated against. Any argument for or against scholarships ought to start (and, IMO, end) by saying that "we already have them in all other sports". Add to this that "we had a chance to get a close partnership with VU and UR and we blew it." That should, IMO, end the discussion.

[GannonFan]

Add to this that "we had a chance to get a close partnership with VU and UR and we blew it." That should, IMO, end the discussion.

That's the only part where I really disagree with you. I don't think vU or UR were ever close to schools that would go to the Patriot. nova's been closer to dropping football than moving to the Patriot and Richmond only had a President who was interested in that move (while apparently most sudents and alumni were vehemetly against it, as per their reaction to that attempt). And in the article you state that both schools have struggled in the CAA to field championship teams, but in reality both have been consistently good teams for some time now. Granted, vU is only back in the playoffs since '02, but that's still just 6 years, and before that they were in plenty of times. Same with Richmond. And I would still need to be convinced that nova would actually leave UD to go to another conference, knowing that that would probably end the chance to ever get UD to play at nova again. That's a lot of money every other year to turn their back on.

If the Patriot is to become competitive and relevant on the national stage again, they'll need to do so from within. There are plenty of quality programs there that could succeed with the right amount of support, while not infringing on the student aspect of the athlete. Sure the nova's and Richmond's can be examples of private schools doing that, but the Patriot League doesn't need them in the conference to realize that.

[Fordham]

Great piece Chuck.

[ur2k]

Good read LFN. I think that Nova, UR, W&M can and should be examples of how you can compete at fairly high levels athletically without compromising academics.

Heck, we almost had a revolution at UR when our (now former) president wanted us to join the Patriot league. That was the beginning of the end for him. Our current pres is a staunch supporter of athletics and maintaining, and growing, UR academically.

[chiapet9]

In recent years, Villanova and Richmond were often cited as expansion candidates for the Patriot League. Both are private schools offering football scholarships; both have strict academic standards they are upholding; and both are currently among the Top 8 football teams in the country. (Conceivably, they could play each other in the championship game.)


Richmond has strict academic standards? Could've fooled me - I thought they were just worried whether or not daddy would write the tuition check.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Richmond has strict academic standards? Could've fooled me - I thought they were just worried whether or not daddy would write the tuition check.

Give it a rest. I'm not going to waste my time pulling together US News & World report rankings, but I do know UR is in the Top 25 of B-Schools nationally.

Is it expensive? Sure. So are alot of schools these days.

[LeopardFan04]

Nice work, Chuck.

[ngineer]

Excellent article, Chuck. As our wrestling team has proven, scholarships ENHANCE the academics. Lehigh's wrestling team's academics have significantly improved since we went to scholarships in the mid-90's. One can go after the top scholastic student regardless of his parents' income. The PL Presidents have to ***** or get off the pot. I don't see Lehigh's Gast being a leader on this, though we could be surprised as she gets more comfortable in her surroundings. Keep in mind she was a very good collegiate athlete on the track team at USC as an undergrad, so she should have a good appreciation for sports role in the 'big picture'.
Past President Peter Likins' long-term vision for Lehigh was to become a "Standford of the East" (his alma mater where he was an NCAA wrestling qualifier), so we know the model is there. I think if Lehigh/Lafayette and Colgate forced the issue the others would follow. Let me say, that if Georgetown would commit to football, as they have for basketball, they could be a major power with their nationwide name recognition.

[Anovafan]

Nice article. Don't kid yourself though, if the Patriot league ever went to scholarships, Nova would join. It would be a no-brainer.

[Tim James]

From a neutral perspective I'd love to see Villanova and Richmond in the Patriot league. The CAA is too big as is. I'm not sure how Richmond being in a conference with all northern schools would work out though in terms of attendance and recruiting.

[4th and What?]

Nice article. Don't kid yourself though, if the Patriot league ever went to scholarships, Nova would join. It would be a no-brainer.

How so? This based solely off limiting travel distances, or are there other conference policies that would attract 'nova?

[Keeper]

How so? This based solely off limiting travel distances, or are there other conference policies that would attract 'nova?

If I'm not mistaken, 'Nova has more of a competitive
history against many current Patriot members, and
also against former Yankee (CAA North) members.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Nice article. Don't kid yourself though, if the Patriot league ever went to scholarships, Nova would join. It would be a no-brainer.

I disagree. What if Villanova wins the FCS NC this year? Smacking down Delaware? Toppler of JMU? How could a move to the PL be justified in that case? Even if Richmond battles App State hard and Villanova challenges JMU and lose it's still IMO an impossible sell.

The more successful Richmond and Villanova are in the CAA, the harder it would be for either to move to the PL. At a bare minimum, the PL would need 1) scholarships, 2) at least one at-large playoff bid, and 3) at least one deep run in the playoffs before they'd even think of moving.

[CrusaderBob]

Nice piece. I am of the basic opinion that once you offer scholarships in any sport, you stepped off the principle of non-preferred treatment for atheletes and so you should be free to offer scholarships to all prospective athletes. Right now the aid given in football vs. and out right scholarship is essentially semantic. You can make the financial and Title IX implications of football scholarships work.

But if I may highlight Biddle's quote, particularly one part of Biddle's quote:


"But it's always a challenge once we get in the playoffs because we're a non-scholarship school and almost everybody else has scholarships. Some of our kids have to write 20-page papers after practice and they're not getting any financial aid. They're playing here because they love football, simple as that. That's how it is around here."

What do scholarships have to do with kids having 20 page papers to write? Does he think scholarships will change whether or not kids are gonna have to write 20 page papers over Thanksgiving break? Or somehow make writing that paper easier?

Were I an academic who thought that schoalrships would lead to a decline in academic performamce, the inferences I could draw from that quote would give me ammunition for my point of view.

[Go...gate]

Nice article. Don't kid yourself though, if the Patriot league ever went to scholarships, Nova would join. It would be a no-brainer.

First time anybody has really come right out and said this. You really think so?

[TheValleyRaider]

But if I may highlight Biddle's quote, particularly one part of Biddle's quote:



What do scholarships have to do with kids having 20 page papers to write? Does he think scholarships will change whether or not kids are gonna have to write 20 page papers over Thanksgiving break? Or somehow make writing that paper easier?

Were I an academic who thought that schoalrships would lead to a decline in academic performamce, the inferences I could draw from that quote would give me ammunition for my point of view.

I think Biddle's point is that the athletes are doing the same level of work as any other undergraduate (which at Colgate, I might point out, can be substantial), while putting in the full time-committment of being Division I athletes, and not getting any sort of compensation for it. At this point, that situation is now at odds with the way the school conducts itself in just about every other sport they sponsor. I highly doubt Biddle is suggesting that with scholarships the work would suddenly dissipate or get easier xpeacex

[CrusaderBob]

I think Biddle's point is that the athletes are doing the same level of work as any other undergraduate (which at Colgate, I might point out, can be substantial), while putting in the full time-committment of being Division I athletes, and not getting any sort of compensation for it. At this point, that situation is now at odds with the way the school conducts itself in just about every other sport they sponsor. I highly doubt Biddle is suggesting that with scholarships the work would suddenly dissipate or get easier xpeacex

I don't disagree, but that's not close to what he said.

And the argument from the ivory tower is that there are plenty of kids who make just as much of a full time committment to activities outside the classroom besides sports for which they are not "compensated" in the form of a scholarship.

The academic workload on top of playing a sport has no bearing on whether or not scholarships should be offered. Biddle's comment links the two and it should not.

[colorless raider]

Many (most) PL players get significant aid so its not like the are playing for free. But overall schollys should attrcat better players and athletes and distribute aid easier. Lets do it already.

Since you are the sanest voice of the 'pards, get after President Weiss and let's get this donw. Colgate has been pushing hard.

[colorless raider]

Nice piece. I am of the basic opinion that once you offer scholarships in any sport, you stepped off the principle of non-preferred treatment for atheletes and so you should be free to offer scholarships to all prospective athletes. Right now the aid given in football vs. and out right scholarship is essentially semantic. You can make the financial and Title IX implications of football scholarships work.

But if I may highlight Biddle's quote, particularly one part of Biddle's quote:



What do scholarships have to do with kids having 20 page papers to write? Does he think scholarships will change whether or not kids are gonna have to write 20 page papers over Thanksgiving break? Or somehow make writing that paper easier?

Were I an academic who thought that schoalrships would lead to a decline in academic performamce, the inferences I could draw from that quote would give me ammunition for my point of view.

So just leave the PL, you're a basketball school anyway.

[jmufan999]

didn't know y'all play without scholarships. that's not exactly putting teams on an even playing field in the playoffs. sucks for you guys.

[CrusaderBob]

So just leave the PL, you're a basketball school anyway.

I'm not advocating that point of view at all, and think a scholarship PL would be a great niche for Holy Cross football and all of the PL schools. As I said, once your in for sholarships in one sport, go all the way and work out the financial and Title IX issues.

During the formation of the PL, the error in thinking was that somehow 6 small primarily undergraduate liberal arts colleges were going to compete for players on a level playing field with Ivies.

No, I'm not advocating the old PL model, just pointing out that the comment made by Biddle is out of place in that context and does nothing to advance the cause for scholarships. That's all. My last words on this.

[Anovafan]

First time anybody has really come right out and said this. You really think so?

Absolutely. Nova could cut travel costs significantly and still schedule Penn, Delaware, Temple, Towson. If the Patriot league gets scholarships Nova would move in a heartbeat. The VU administration sees the Patriot league schools as much more in line with the academic "prowess" of VU. I say "prowess" because the administration thinks it is a better school than it really is. Academically, there are certainly some lesser schools in the CAA and the VU admin would love to distance themselves from those schools. To answer LFN a bit, you really don't know the small time nature of the VU administration. They don't think big time for football and really don't care. Remember, this is a school who dropped football in 1980. Even if Nova won a NC in football, it wouldn't matter a bit to the school. The CAA will likely have a shake up in the next few years and a scholarship Patriot league would be an easy decision.

[4th and What?]

Absolutely. Nova could cut travel costs significantly and still schedule Penn, Delaware, Temple, Towson. If the Patriot league gets scholarships Nova would move in a heartbeat. The VU administration sees the Patriot league schools as much more in line with the academic "prowess" of VU. I say "prowess" because the administration thinks it is a better school than it really is. Academically, there are certainly some lesser schools in the CAA and the VU admin would love to distance themselves from those schools. To answer LFN a bit, you really don't know the small time nature of the VU administration. They don't think big time for football and really don't care. Remember, this is a school who dropped football in 1980. Even if Nova won a NC in football, it wouldn't matter a bit to the school. The CAA will likely have a shake up in the next few years and a scholarship Patriot league would be an easy decision.

Hey! Back off! :p

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Absolutely. Nova could cut travel costs significantly and still schedule Penn, Delaware, Temple, Towson. If the Patriot league gets scholarships Nova would move in a heartbeat. The VU administration sees the Patriot league schools as much more in line with the academic "prowess" of VU. I say "prowess" because the administration thinks it is a better school than it really is. Academically, there are certainly some lesser schools in the CAA and the VU admin would love to distance themselves from those schools. To answer LFN a bit, you really don't know the small time nature of the VU administration. They don't think big time for football and really don't care. Remember, this is a school who dropped football in 1980. Even if Nova won a NC in football, it wouldn't matter a bit to the school. The CAA will likely have a shake up in the next few years and a scholarship Patriot league would be an easy decision.

Believe you me, I'd love this to be true. I've seen, though, how winning a FCS NC changes fans. If 'Nova were somehow to do it, I don't think any administration who even is in love with the idea of moving to the PL could get away with it.

[WMTribe90]

Would the PL take Villanova on as a football only member? Obviously Villanova would want to stay in the BE for all other sports, especially mens basketball. I don't see UR leaving for the PL, even with scholarships.

[Dignan]

Academically, there are certainly some lesser schools in the CAA and the VU admin would love to distance themselves from those schools.

While it can be said that there are some lesser academic schools in the CAA it's certainly not true across the board. I can't speak for the academics of all of the CAA schools as I'm mostly familiar with the Virginia schools, but W&M, Richmond and JMU are all high quality academic institutions on par with Villanova.

[DFW HOYA]

While it can be said that there are some lesser academic schools in the CAA it's certainly not true across the board. I can't speak for the academics of all of the CAA schools as I'm mostly familiar with the Virginia schools, but W&M, Richmond and JMU are all high quality academic institutions on par with Villanova.

The perception is that JMU is not at the level of W&M and UR. There may be a program here and there which are comparable, but JMU is still lumped in with Mason and VCU in a lot of comparable programs.

And to be fair, Villanova is not quite at the level of W&M, which is the highest ranked I-AA school in the US News report outside the Ivies and Georgetown.

[Dignan]

The perception is that JMU is not at the level of W&M and UR. There may be a program here and there which are comparable, but JMU is still lumped in with Mason and VCU in a lot of comparable programs.

And to be fair, Villanova is not quite at the level of W&M, which is the highest ranked I-AA school in the US News report outside the Ivies and Georgetown.

I would say that in Virginia the schools could probably be ranked with UVA and William & Mary being about equal and Richmond and JMU coming in close behind (in that order). If you are to go by the US News rankings, JMU is 4th in the South (hadn't looked at these for a long time, is Richmond now considered a "national" university?), while Villanova is 1st in the North. While I wouldn't be surprised that Villanova is a tick above JMU academically (especially considering that Villanova is a small, private school, whereas JMU is a medium-large state school), I think it would be awfully picky to point to them as being clearly academically inferior.

I think that there are other schools in the CAA much more deserving of being singled out as academically "suspect" than JMU (and some that are to be joining the football league soon). Don't want to name names, though, so I'll leave it at that.

[Franks Tanks]

I would say that in Virginia the schools could probably be ranked with UVA and William & Mary being about equal and Richmond and JMU coming in close behind (in that order). If you are to go by the US News rankings, JMU is 4th in the South (hadn't looked at these for a long time, is Richmond now considered a "national" university?), while Villanova is 1st in the North. While I wouldn't be surprised that Villanova is a tick above JMU academically (especially considering that Villanova is a small, private school, whereas JMU is a medium-large state school), I think it would be awfully picky to point to them as being clearly academically inferior.

I think that there are other schools in the CAA much more deserving of being singled out as academically "suspect" than JMU (and some that are to be joining the football league soon). Don't want to name names, though, so I'll leave it at that.


JMU is a good school but it is not quite on par with the other schools you speak of. It is state university and has a different mission then some of the other schools you speak of. Not better or worse just different. For example JMU has a 63% acceptance rate while Richmond accepts 39% of those that apply. William & Mary accepts 33% and Nova about 41%. The schools have different missions and the quality of education can be debated. What is clear however is the difficulty of obtaining admission to each institution.

[Dignan]

JMU is a good school but it is not quite on par with the other schools you speak of. It is state university and has a different mission then some of the other schools you speak of. Not better or worse just different. For example JMU has a 63% acceptance rate while Richmond accepts 39% of those that apply. William & Mary accepts 33% and Nova about 41%. The schools have different missions and the quality of education can be debated. What is clear however is the difficulty of obtaining admission to each institution.

While I agree more or less with what you say, my point is more that out of the schools in the CAA I think JMU is closer academically to Villanova, W&M and UR than the lower end of the group. I merely take exception to the idea that JMU is somehow unworthy of being in the same conference with VU for academic reasons.

[Franks Tanks]

While I agree more or less with what you say, my point is more that out of the schools in the CAA I think JMU is closer academically to Villanova, W&M and UR than the lower end of the group. I merely take exception to the idea that JMU is somehow unworthy of being in the same conference with VU for academic reasons.


Agree.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The perception is that JMU is not at the level of W&M and UR. There may be a program here and there which are comparable, but JMU is still lumped in with Mason and VCU in a lot of comparable programs.

And to be fair, Villanova is not quite at the level of W&M, which is the highest ranked I-AA school in the US News report outside the Ivies and Georgetown.

I didn't mention it in the blog posting, but the PL would also willingly give their right arm to get W&M on board in the league as well... in all sports. The trouble is - again - how do you do this without seeing it as a downgrade in football if the Tribe (and CAA) is doing well?

Before the argument was VU, UR (and to some extent W&M) can't compete with UD, UNH, JMU since they're high-academic private schools. That myth has beeen blown out of the water this year - VU and UR are still alive, and W&M came within a whisker of the playoffs too (and had the committee decided not to take Maine, who knows? All three might be playing this weekend.).

[Dignan]

I didn't mention it in the blog posting, but the PL would also willingly give their right arm to get W&M on board in the league as well... in all sports. The trouble is - again - how do you do this without seeing it as a downgrade in football if the Tribe (and CAA) is doing well?

Before the argument was VU, UR (and to some extent W&M) can't compete with UD, UNH, JMU since they're high-academic private schools. That myth has beeen blown out of the water this year - VU and UR are still alive, and W&M came within a whisker of the playoffs too (and had the committee decided not to take Maine, who knows? All three might be playing this weekend.).

I may be remembering this wrong (although I don't think so), but I'm pretty sure W&M is a public school. A very good one, but public, nonetheless.

Ah, and don't forget that when JMU won the NC in 2004 it was W&M that played them in the semi-finals... so they'd already proven that a high academic school can do well in football.

[the last indian]

Yeah, but.... nothing good happens unless the PL get off its duff and goes to scholarships. IMO, this has to happen sooner rather than later otherwise it will be irrelevant and the league will have sunk to something like a super DII league. Even if the conversion is made today, it will take several years before the impact is felt.

[letsgopards04]

Absolutely. Nova could cut travel costs significantly and still schedule Penn, Delaware, Temple, Towson. If the Patriot league gets scholarships Nova would move in a heartbeat. The VU administration sees the Patriot league schools as much more in line with the academic "prowess" of VU. I say "prowess" because the administration thinks it is a better school than it really is. Academically, there are certainly some lesser schools in the CAA and the VU admin would love to distance themselves from those schools. To answer LFN a bit, you really don't know the small time nature of the VU administration. They don't think big time for football and really don't care. Remember, this is a school who dropped football in 1980. Even if Nova won a NC in football, it wouldn't matter a bit to the school. The CAA will likely have a shake up in the next few years and a scholarship Patriot league would be an easy decision.

The PL wants a full-time member and Nova ain't leaving the Big East basketball money anytime soon.

[LUHawker]

The PL wants a full-time member and Nova ain't leaving the Big East basketball money anytime soon.

I think RPI would be a great full member. Right size, right academics, right tradition, right geography. Wrong Division at the moment, but certainly could move up without huge hinderances.

[DFW HOYA]

I think RPI would be a great full member. Right size, right academics, right tradition, right geography. Wrong Division at the moment, but certainly could move up without huge hinderances.

Right Size? Would be larger than any school but Fordham.
Right Academics? Yes.
Right Tradition? Other than hockey, um....well.... xsmhx
Right Geography? For the PL, I thought that meant Pennsylvania... xlolx

Look to VMI instead.

[Go...gate]

The PL wants a full-time member and Nova ain't leaving the Big East basketball money anytime soon.

I think the PL would make an exception for Villanova, as it has for Fordham and Georgetown.

[LUHawker]

Right Size? Would be larger than any school but Fordham.
Right Academics? Yes.
Right Tradition? Other than hockey, um....well.... xsmhx
Right Geography? For the PL, I thought that meant Pennsylvania... xlolx

Look to VMI instead.

Size-wise its very close to Lehigh (RPI 7500, LU 6000)
Tradition: they have a long football tradition with Union and are upgrading facilities (constructing a 4800 person 'Multi Purpose Stadium') Hmmm, that sounds similar to some other PL school I know.
Geography - Better than VMI for all schools save GTown and probably Bucknell.

[DFW HOYA]

Geography - Better than VMI for all schools save GTown and probably Bucknell.

VMI would be a great fit with USMA and USNA. Then again, the PL thought American was a good fit, so maybe I'm missing something.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

VMI would be a great fit with USMA and USNA. Then again, the PL thought American was a good fit, so maybe I'm missing something.

Veering back on topic, VMI is also probably a good fit only with scholarships. However, they also seem to fit the "rescuing someone from a conference that is better than them" strategy that (IMO) has seriously backfired with UR and VU.

[DFW HOYA]

However, they also seem to fit the "rescuing someone from a conference that is better than them" strategy that (IMO) has seriously backfired with UR and VU.

VMI plays in the Big South...

[BDKJMU]

I didn't mention it in the blog posting, but the PL would also willingly give their right arm to get W&M on board in the league as well... in all sports. The trouble is - again - how do you do this without seeing it as a downgrade in football if the Tribe (and CAA) is doing well?

Before the argument was VU, UR (and to some extent W&M) can't compete with UD, UNH, JMU since they're high-academic private schools. That myth has beeen blown out of the water this year - VU and UR are still alive, and W&M came within a whisker of the playoffs too (and had the committee decided not to take Maine, who knows? All three might be playing this weekend.).

There was never any arguement that VU, UR, and W&M couldn't compete with UD, JMU, UNH, etc. This myth you speak of, if there ever was one, was blown out of the water in the 80s'. W&M and UR had playoff teams in the 80s, 90s, and this decade. W&M lost to JMU in the semis in 04', UR was in the quarterfinals in 05' and in the semis last yr. VU was in the playoffs I believe a couple of times in the late 90s and a couple of times in the early 00s.

[colorless raider]

The PL wants a full-time member and Nova ain't leaving the Big East basketball money anytime soon.

No kidding! How about for "football only".

[colorless raider]

Size-wise its very close to Lehigh (RPI 7500, LU 6000)
Tradition: they have a long football tradition with Union and are upgrading facilities (constructing a 4800 person 'Multi Purpose Stadium') Hmmm, that sounds similar to some other PL school I know.
Geography - Better than VMI for all schools save GTown and probably Bucknell.

I don't want them. Enginnering schools can't play football.:D

[ngineer]

I don't want them. Enginnering schools can't play football.:D

What about U of Rochester moving up from D-III as opposed to RPI? UR has a higher academic reputation than RPI, and is well-heeled to make an upgrade as needed.
BTW, Lehigh undergrad is only about 4600. The 6000+ would include the graduate schools.xreadx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There was never any arguement that VU, UR, and W&M couldn't compete with UD, JMU, UNH, etc. This myth you speak of, if there ever was one, was blown out of the water in the 80s'. W&M and UR had playoff teams in the 80s, 90s, and this decade. W&M lost to JMU in the semis in 04', UR was in the quarterfinals in 05' and in the semis last yr. VU was in the playoffs I believe a couple of times in the late 90s and a couple of times in the early 00s.

Are we talking about the same teams? Villanova, who's made the playoffs twice in the past 10 years? William & Mary, who also made the playoffs twice in the past 10 years and had three consecutive losing seasons before this year? Or Richmond, who had nine seasons in the past 20 years with 4 wins or less before Dave Clawson came around?

I don't bring this up to bust on these three schools - only to demonstrate that this idea that they've been juggernauts during the last twenty years is completely misplaced. Compare these records to those of Delaware, UMass, JMU or UNH and it isn't anywhere close. The idea of any two of these schools - let alone all of them - being great all at the same time is a very recent phenomenon.

[blukeys]

Are we talking about the same teams? Villanova, who's made the playoffs twice in the past 10 years? William & Mary, who also made the playoffs twice in the past 10 years and had three consecutive losing seasons before this year? Or Richmond, who had nine seasons in the past 20 years with 4 wins or less before Dave Clawson came around?

I don't bring this up to bust on these three schools - only to demonstrate that this idea that they've been juggernauts during the last twenty years is completely misplaced. Compare these records to those of Delaware, UMass, JMU or UNH and it isn't anywhere close. The idea of any two of these schools - let alone all of them - being great all at the same time is a very recent phenomenon.

Chuck,

As someone who has seen these 3 schools play for the last 20+ years, I can tell you that the 3 schools you mention have always been competitive for all of that time. The margin of error in the Yankee/A-10/CAA has always been close and continues to get closer all the time. Yes the W/L record favors the schools you mentioned. Despite the win loss record you cite, the individual games themselves have always been individually competitive. If you look at the individual games scores, you will see that the 3 schools you have mentioned have lost a many games by 10 points or less. Having attended many of these games I can tell you they were decided late in the game.

I would say that after UD/VU, the most competitive series I have seen has been Delaware/W&M.

My observations do not detract from your central premise that the PL needs to get their heads out of their butts about getting competitive.

Most people have little idea how close all of the CAA teams are in talent and coaching. A 4-7 CAA team could get the AQ in the MEAC,PL, or OVC Conferences in most years. A 4-7 CAA team is usually 4 plays away from being a 7-4 team. This is true whether it is W&M, Richmond or (God Help Me) xnonox Nova

I applaud your efforts to get the PL to put football on the same footing as other sports.

But, the CAA is rawhide tough from top to bottom especially in the South. One never gets a week off in this conference. This helps the CAA playoff teams.

In the CAA one plays a playoff opponent from the middle of October forward. The need to compete in this environment is what gives private schools in the CAA an advantage over PL schools.

All of this being said, I repeat my endorsement of your effort to bring PL football into the 21st century. In your efforts to convince the PL insititutional deciders please incude Furman and Wofford in your arguments. They are certainly worthy examples of small academic schools who have not sacrificed academic success for sports success.

[DFW HOYA]

What about U of Rochester moving up from D-III as opposed to RPI? UR has a higher academic reputation than RPI, and is well-heeled to make an upgrade as needed.
BTW, Lehigh undergrad is only about 4600. The 6000+ would include the graduate schools.xreadx

Rochester? RPI? There seems to be a subtle contention that only small schools are PL compatible.

Are schools like Fordham and Georgetown now too big to fit the conference? I don't think so, so why not look at larger programs, including a state school here and there?

[Tribe4SF]

Are we talking about the same teams? Villanova, who's made the playoffs twice in the past 10 years? William & Mary, who also made the playoffs twice in the past 10 years and had three consecutive losing seasons before this year? Or Richmond, who had nine seasons in the past 20 years with 4 wins or less before Dave Clawson came around?

I don't bring this up to bust on these three schools - only to demonstrate that this idea that they've been juggernauts during the last twenty years is completely misplaced. Compare these records to those of Delaware, UMass, JMU or UNH and it isn't anywhere close. The idea of any two of these schools - let alone all of them - being great all at the same time is a very recent phenomenon.

Since joining the conference in 1993, W&M is 76-54 in the league. Until 2005, we had never had a losing record in the conference. The Tribe is 10-2 against UNH.

[DetroitFlyer]

Chuck,

As someone who has seen these 3 schools play for the last 20+ years, I can tell you that the 3 schools you mention have always been competitive for all of that time. The margin of error in the Yankee/A-10/CAA has always been close and continues to get closer all the time. Yes the W/L record favors the schools you mentioned. Despite the win loss record you cite, the individual games themselves have always been individually competitive. If you look at the individual games scores, you will see that the 3 schools you have mentioned have lost a many games by 10 points or less. Having attended many of these games I can tell you they were decided late in the game.

I would say that after UD/VU, the most competitive series I have seen has been Delaware/W&M.

My observations do not detract from your central premise that the PL needs to get their heads out of their butts about getting competitive.

Most people have little idea how close all of the CAA teams are in talent and coaching. A 4-7 CAA team could get the AQ in the MEAC,PL, or OVC Conferences in most years. A 4-7 CAA team is usually 4 plays away from being a 7-4 team. This is true whether it is W&M, Richmond or (God Help Me) xnonox Nova

I applaud your efforts to get the PL to put football on the same footing as other sports.

But, the CAA is rawhide tough from top to bottom especially in the South. One never gets a week off in this conference. This helps the CAA playoff teams.

In the CAA one plays a playoff opponent from the middle of October forward. The need to compete in this environment is what gives private schools in the CAA an advantage over PL schools.

All of this being said, I repeat my endorsement of your effort to bring PL football into the 21st century. In your efforts to convince the PL insititutional deciders please incude Furman and Wofford in your arguments. They are certainly worthy examples of small academic schools who have not sacrificed academic success for sports success.

Wow, you have some serious east coast bias.... I am not impressed with the OVC, MEAC or PL as "power conferences", but a 4-7 CAA team is not going to win any of these conferences in any given season. A 4-7 CAA team would not win the NEC or PFL either. I suggest that you get out of your 20+ years of watching northeastern football and go see some games around the country. There are good teams in EVERY conference, and they will rise to the top. A 4-7 CAA team winning the PL, OCV or MEAC.... Please....

[GannonFan]

Wow, you have some serious east coast bias.... I am not impressed with the OVC, MEAC or PL as "power conferences", but a 4-7 CAA team is not going to win any of these conferences in any given season. A 4-7 CAA team would not win the NEC or PFL either. I suggest that you get out of your 20+ years of watching northeastern football and go see some games around the country. There are good teams in EVERY conference, and they will rise to the top. A 4-7 CAA team winning the PL, OCV or MEAC.... Please....

Spoken by a man who hasn't seen football outside of the PFL in a decade. Priceless. :p

[OL FU]

Spoken by a man who hasn't seen football outside of the PFL in a decade. Priceless. :p

It is interesting (and while I realize one game comparisons are difficult) that a 7-5 Socon team that barely beat a 4-8 CAA team at home beat the PL champion 42-21on the roadxeyebrowx xwhistlex

[SpiderFan]

In recent years, Villanova and Richmond were often cited as expansion candidates for the Patriot League. Both are private schools offering football scholarships; both have strict academic standards they are upholding; and both are currently among the Top 8 football teams in the country. (Conceivably, they could play each other in the championship game.)


Richmond has strict academic standards? Could've fooled me - I thought they were just worried whether or not daddy would write the tuition check.

Another bitter applicant who got denied admission to UR...

[GannonFan]

It is interesting (and while I realize one game comparisons are difficult) that a 7-5 Socon team that barely beat a 4-8 CAA team at home beat the PL champion 42-21on the roadxeyebrowx xwhistlex


And that 4-8 CAA team beat the NEC champ this year 38-7. But hey, that's only just over 4 TD's, not that big of a deal. xlolx xlolx xlolx

[GannonFan]

A 4-7 CAA team would not win the NEC or PFL either. ...

Psst, that 4-8 CAA team beat the NEC champ 38-7. That's certainly a good start to winning the conference, don't you think, or do you think Wagner might be more of a speed bump than Albany was??? xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And that 4-8 CAA team beat the NEC champ this year 38-7. But hey, that's only just over 4 TD's, not that big of a deal. xlolx xlolx xlolx

You mean UD scored more than four TDs in a game this year? xlolx

Seriously, the tape of the Furman game might be another one that PL officials might want to slide under the door of the PL presidents. And let's not forget the Coastal Carolina game either - that could very easily have been a loss, too.

[GannonFan]

You mean UD scored more than four TDs in a game this year? xlolx



Yup, amazing what UD could do when they step out of the CAA or SoCon. xnodx

[ChickenMan]

Yup, amazing what UD could do when they step out of the CAA or SoCon. xnodx

Can we schedule West Chester and/or Albany for two games each (home/home) in '09??? :p