Tubby Raymond Calls Out KC Keeler on Transfers

[93henfan]

Wow! Tubby said to KC's face in the year-end press conference what many here have been saying for years, and he got a little testyxthumbsupx :

http://www.newarkpostonline.com/articles/2008/11/25/sports/doc492c9173364c8509423465.txt

If you don't want to register, a GoHens poster provided this active username and password to view the full article:
username - bugmenot
password - bugmenottoday

Here's the text if you don't want to bother:

Keeler, Raymond debate transfers
Tubby asks K.C. why so many transfers
by Tom Tomashek
[email protected]
Published: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 6:00 PM CST

In what was college football’s version of “Family Feud,” University of Delaware coach K.C. Keeler and his first college mentor, Tubby Raymond, had an animated conversation Monday in a year-end press conference.

The subject wasn’t an exchange of offensive philosophies, Raymond’s Wing-T versus Keeler’s more wide-open manner of moving the ball. That is perhaps something for another day. This discussion involved the NCAA transfer rule that allows a Bowl Championship Series to transfer to Football Championship Subdivision program without sitting out a year. In his seven seasons at Delaware, Keeler has applied the rule to help build a program that has produced a pair of NCAA championship game appearances in five years.

The conversation opened when Raymond, relatively silent in earlier press conference appearances this dismal season, spoke up: “I hate to put you on the spot, but I have a question.”
He then put Keeler on the spot by asking him if his frequent use of transfers might be tainting the Blue Hen program’s DNA, hindering morale by taking major-college transfers and placing them in spots that putting an outsider in the position that a recruited athlete had worked hard to earn. The question was perhaps linked to the fact that a handful of Keeler’s major-college transfers had failed to deliver this season, particularly lackluster quarterback Rob Schoenhoft, an Ohio State transfer who started over recruited red-shirt freshman Lou Ritacco and held the job through seven games before being injured.

Keeler conceded at some point that he believed it was best to build a program from within your recruiting program, but saw nothing wrong with bringing in a major-college recruit who realized that he had made a mistake and fulfilled Delaware’s academic standards and could help Delaware football. He added that he and his staff didn’t randomly pull in any transfer who applied, and that they were never given a guarantee that they would become starters.

“Yes, but they know,” Raymond responded. “All the players know”

Keeler countered by saying that there were transfers used at Delaware before and during his Blue Hen career. He cited several transfers who played an integral role on Raymond’s teams including UD’s 1979 Division II championship season when Keeler was a starting Blue Hen linebacker.

Let me tell you . . . virtually all of our transfers came back home,” Raymond said after Keeler reeled out a list of names of transfers who preceded him and played with him “They had some feeling for us. Schoenhoft doesn’t have any feeling for us.”

Keeler shot back, “How do you know that?” and followed with the fact that Ronald Talley, a Notre Dame transfer “bleeds Blue and Gold” and that former Duke transfer Ben Patrick doesn’t spend his leisure time in North Carolina but visits Hens friends in Newark and sometimes on the road..

“You mean you never recruited anyone outside the area?” he asked Raymond as a followup. Keeler singled out a former Blue Hen who was recruited out of the Atlanta area, but Raymond quickly explained that that Delaware did many Wing-T clinics in the Atlanta area and the recruit was swayed by his familiarity with the program.

Keeler said that balancing the major-college transfer situation with a program’s recruiting policy isn’t an academic science but he saw nothing wrong with taking a qualified student-athlete who realized that he made a mistake in his original selection. And, he added, he has passed on more than a few athletes he didn’t accept because of social or personality problems.

“All I can tell you is that we [handle the transfer situation] the best way possible,” he said. “We make sure that every single recruit who comes here understands that when you are here, it’s about winning championships and getting a degree, and if you want to play at the next level here is a great opportunity.

“But, if you come here, it’s not going to be all about you.”

Keeler smiled. Raymond smiled. They seemed to have agreed that they disagree. Certainly, it’s a subject that has come up in many more places including some sessions between Blue Hen fans and other coaches. In reality, there really is no right or wrong answer to the question. The NCAA has opened the door with a liberal transfer rule . . . no waiting period for a player stepping down from a major-college program to a lower level.

It’s up to coaches to decide whether it’s right for their program. The rule served Keeler and Delaware well in his first six seasons, but it may have forced him into a situation where Delaware may have to endure one or two more disappointing seasons until he gets his new quarterback recruiting policy in order. Then again, he might find more guys like Flacco, Sonny Riccio, and Andy Hall than Schoenhoft or Sean Hakes by relying on major-college transfers.

[Rob Iola]

What's the story on Hakes?

[93henfan]

What's the story on Hakes?

You got me.

I've been watching him toss passes on the sidelines all season. Not sure why he's not sniffing the field.xconfusedx

I think KC's explanation was that at the beginning of the season they were waiting for some transfer credits to be approved and then I believe it was because Scho and Lou were just more familiar with the offense than he. I'm not 100% sure really.

[Franks Tanks]

Do you really want another Sonny Ricco? xrolleyesx

[93henfan]

Do you really want another Sonny Ricco? xrolleyesx

I want the Sonny Riccio from the first half of the '04 W&M playoff game, BUT NOT THE SECOND HALF!

[State Line Liquors]

Do you really want another Sonny Ricco? xrolleyesx

I think every hen fan would be happy to roll out the red carpet for another Sonny Riccio right now.

[93henfan]

SLL: with a bad ass screen name like that, you need more than 19 posts brutha. Get on it.

[GoBlueHens83]

Do you really want another Sonny Ricco? xrolleyesx


I'd really just like to have a QB that can throw more TD's then INT's.

[Hoyadestroya85]

I'd like to what you UD guys think about the whole transfer situation?

[art vandelay]

I'd like to what you UD guys think about the whole transfer situation?

I second that.

I know that my feeling is that they are a bigger detriment to a program than a help. Sometimes you get lucky but usually if you can play in the FBS then you can’t play in the FCS.

The best teams in the conference have very few transfers. I know for sure that UNH has only two. One from Army who came in not expecting any time and had no scholarship and one from Mississippi who is in the same situation.

Coach Mac does not take transfers based on talent. Usually they are a special situation where the athlete will not be getting a scholarship and he is able to play as a walk-on.

I don’t know much about the other southern teams but I do know that Umass has many of the same problems that Delaware has and it has lead to inconsistency in the program
.

[Tribe4SF]

I think it's safe to say that if there wasn't a problem with Keeler's transfer emphasis, Tubby wouldn't have chimed in the way he did. Tubby knows this game as well as anyone, and he knows the Delaware program because he built it. He also understands the players' psyche, and what it takes to build team chemistry, and how to convey that to recruits. If he thinks there's a problem with how Delaware is currently operating, Keeler should be listening to him. The fact that he was moved to create that discussion in that forum may imply that he has been frustrated in previous efforts to discuss it with Keeler.

[ChickenMan]

I believe that the reason KC has taken numerous transfers is because he has been unable to build a solid foundation for his program through recruiting and player development. As a result KC seems to be filling holes on a yearly basis. The QB position has been the most obvious.. but it is not the only area that has been under recruited. Two years ago the UD defense was hit hard by injuries and there were very few Jr and Sr backups in place to fill the void. As a result.. KC had to use a ton of both Fr and red-shirt Fr. It seems to me that one particular area where KC lacks when compared to Tubby.. is in the 'developement' of players. Tubby's teams always had guys who maybe didn't contribute early on.. but were developed into solid contributors during their Jr and Sr years. That development is lacking now.. with KC guys seem to play early or they don't play at all. As a result when a hole occurs it has had to be filled with Fr or a transfer. KC needs to do a much better job of identifing and recruiting HS players and then he and his staff need to 'develope' those recruits into contributing players.

The question is.. after seven years.. is Keeler capable of doing what is needed???

[Rob Iola]

Look, everyone loved Flacco and 4 years earlier everyone loved Andy Hall from Ga. Tech (hmm, was that “You mean you never recruited anyone outside the area?” he asked Raymond as a followup. Keeler singled out a former Blue Hen who was recruited out of the Atlanta area, but Raymond quickly explained that that Delaware did many Wing-T clinics in the Atlanta area and the recruit was swayed by his familiarity with the program.) In short, everyone luvs a winner whether they're home-grown or a transfer.

If you take a closer look at the Delaware program you'll see that they employ as robust a recruiting program as any at the FCS level - last year for example Flacco was the transfer but Omar Cuff was a recruit. There's plenty of playing time to go around except at the QB position, and that's where the bulk of the controversy lies. KC goes after the biggest arm he can and up to now he's gotten that from FBS backups looking to start. He rolled the dice and came up craps this year - Schoenhoft had the arm strength and size but not the football sense or touch to get the job done.

Next year it'll likely come down to Ritacco (recruit) vs. Hakes (transfer).

[ChickenMan]

Next year it'll likely come down to Ritacco (recruit) vs. Hakes (transfer).


I think it will come down to a true Fr or another transfer.

[OL FU]

Certainly not a direct criticism of UD on my part but a general observation and one from a fan of a team that had a high profile transfer in the not to distant past.

With the transfer rule as it is, no one can blame a coach for taking the transfer standout. Competition almost demands taking the opporunity if it presents itself. But consistently relying on transfers especially in a high profile position as QB has to dampen recruiting possibilities. I don't see how there is an argument against that. I suppose if you can successfully snag that great QB every other year it matters not but I really don't know how possible that is year after year.

[GannonFan]

My take on this, and just copy and pasting from the gohens board to save time:

While Tubby's both welcome and entitled to his opinion, I agree with others that he should've done a lot of that questioning behind closed doors.

As for the meat of the discussion, I think Tubby's jumping on a bandwagon rather than getting his facts in order. He says virtually all of his transfers (which up until this year were about the same number per year as KC has taken) were guys coming back home, yet his 2000 roster that went to the semis, with at least 13 transfers on it, I count at least 8 that would seem to have no connection with this area or program save for the fact they transferred here, and there's at least 4-5 starters in that group.

And if Tubby was so anti-transfer, then why was cheering on the team in '03 and up on the stage at the pre-game pep rally in Chatty last year, even bringing up how good Joe Flacco was, without mentioning that Flacco had no ties to this program or area?

And calling out Schoenhoft publicly like that was a bit over the line as well. I realize myself and many here have done that and even worse over the course of the year, but none of us are Hall of Fame coaches, none of us are living legends, and none of us did it in the middle of a very public press conference. Schoenhoft has a crappy year, he has denizens of the message boards calling for his benching, and now he has a Hall of Fame coach saying he knows nothing about Delaware football and isn't one of us. Welcome to Newark, Robbie!

KC's faults lie with making a terrible evaluation of Schoenhoft and not having a capable plan B for when he failed, and for sticking with Schoenhoft as long as he did, probably leading to the offense quiting as they did during the year. Blaming that on transfers in general is an easy and shallow excuse that misses the big picture that in missing with Schoenhoft, and missing with numerous high school QB recruits, KC and his staff have whiffed far too many times with QB evaluations. Of KC's first 7 years year, this is the first year, though, that that particular flaw has hurt the team.

The issue with KC and his tenure here is whether he can win football games and keep the program clean (in and out of the classroom) while winning. He and the program took a mighty blow with those three felons a few years ago and he would never survive another event like that, but outside of that he's done fairly well. The losing seasons, however, will be his downfall should they continue. He could take tens of transfers or take none, but he has to win and win often to stay here, and he's not doing enough of that right now to feel anywhere near comfortable. If it takes a cranky old ex-coach (and a great coach at that) to remind him of that, then so be it.

[catdaddy2402]

I get the feeling that if the Hens were on the practice field right now getting ready for a first round game this transfer stuff would be a non-issue.xtwocentsx

[OL FU]

While Tubby's both welcome and entitled to his opinion, I agree with others that he should've done a lot of that questioning behind closed doors.

.

I absolutely agree with that. xnodx

[WOCO]

I'll never forget when wofford blayed Delaware in the semis. The QB was from ga tech. The WR's were D1, and the end was D1 amongst a lot of other players. I guess it's ok to have a couple but when you have the number that Delaware, it kinda taints the spirit of 1aa/fcs football to me. My question is how does Delaware get so many all of the time. Are they actively recruiting players that aren't getting playing time at 1a/FBS schools?

[ChickenMan]

I'll never forget when wofford blayed Delaware in the semis. The QB was from ga tech. The WR's were D1, and the end was D1 amongst a lot of other players. I guess it's ok to have a couple but when you have the number that Delaware, it kinda taints the spirit of 1aa/fcs football to me. My question is how does Delaware get so many all of the time. Are they actively recruiting players that aren't getting playing time at 1a/FBS schools?

UD doesn't get many more than other FCS programs. In the CAA alone.. UMass and Hofstra have always taken more than UD. The difference has been that recently UD has gotten a few very good ones who became pretty high profile.. Andy Hall, Shawn Johnson, David Boler, Joe Flacco, Ben Patrick.. but the fact is that when it comes to pure numbers.. UD isn't all that different from many other FCS schools.

[GannonFan]

I'll never forget when wofford blayed Delaware in the semis. The QB was from ga tech. The WR's were D1, and the end was D1 amongst a lot of other players. I guess it's ok to have a couple but when you have the number that Delaware, it kinda taints the spirit of 1aa/fcs football to me. My question is how does Delaware get so many all of the time. Are they actively recruiting players that aren't getting playing time at 1a/FBS schools?

Just to correct this, UD had 8 (yup, just eight) DI transfers on that '03 team. That number was less than in 2000 when a Tubby-led team took 13 DI transfers to the semifinal game, yet nary a mention was made of that.

What's different now is that there are more message boards like these that help to play up things that previously wouldn't have warranted much discussion. UD's taken transfers for 30 years and will keep taking them for 30 more. It's in the rules, there's nothing wrong with the practice, and frankly the transfers UD takes are routinely some of the best students and best citizens on its teams, which already are pretty good in terms of fielding student athletes.

Should UD apologize for taking a kid like Shawn Johnson, who graduated early and on the Dean's List from Duke in a field of study of biological anthropology and anatomy? How is that "tainting" the spirit of I-AA/FCS football? Should we not allow kids who are extremely smart, accomplished, and want to play football? Same goes with Darrin Bible the year after that from Notre Dame, again a guy smart enough and driven enough to earn a college degree in 3 years and wanted to play football while pursuing a graduate degree. Really demeaned things having him around, huh?

Oh, and on that '03 team that you've taken the effort to malign, the two WR's that you call out as being DI guys included David Boler, who spent a redshirt year only at USC before coming to UD (meaning that he could and did play 4 years at UD, just as much as any high school recruited kid could), and Joey Bleymeir, who was a non-scholarship walk-on at Arizona State who also only spent a redshirt year there before coming to UD and playing again, the maximum 4 years that anyone else could. Calling those guys DI WR's is perjorative and argumentative, considering their actual backgrounds.

Just my two cents of course. xpeacex

[andy7171]

I'll never forget when wofford blayed Delaware in the semis. The QB was from ga tech. The WR's were D1, and the end was D1 amongst a lot of other players. I guess it's ok to have a couple but when you have the number that Delaware, it kinda taints the spirit of 1aa/fcs football to me. My question is how does Delaware get so many all of the time. Are they actively recruiting players that aren't getting playing time at 1a/FBS schools?


Just to correct this, UD had 8 (yup, just eight) DI transfers on that '03 team. That number was less than in 2000 when a Tubby-led team took 13 DI transfers to the semifinal game, yet nary a mention was made of that.

What's different now is that there are more message boards like these that help to play up things that previously wouldn't have warranted much discussion. UD's taken transfers for 30 years and will keep taking them for 30 more. It's in the rules, there's nothing wrong with the practice, and frankly the transfers UD takes are routinely some of the best students and best citizens on its teams, which already are pretty good in terms of fielding student athletes.

Should UD apologize for taking a kid like Shawn Johnson, who graduated early and on the Dean's List from Duke in a field of study of biological anthropology and anatomy? How is that "tainting" the spirit of I-AA/FCS football? Should we not allow kids who are extremely smart, accomplished, and want to play football? Same goes with Darrin Bible the year after that from Notre Dame, again a guy smart enough and driven enough to earn a college degree in 3 years and wanted to play football while pursuing a graduate degree. Really demeaned things having him around, huh?

Oh, and on that '03 team that you've taken the effort to malign, the two WR's that you call out as being DI guys included David Boler, who spent a redshirt year only at USC before coming to UD (meaning that he could and did play 4 years at UD, just as much as any high school recruited kid could), and Joey Bleymeir, who was a non-scholarship walk-on at Arizona State who also only spent a redshirt year there before coming to UD and playing again, the maximum 4 years that anyone else could. Calling those guys DI WR's is perjorative and argumentative, considering their actual backgrounds.

Just my two cents of course. xpeacex

I'm going to beat S/E to the punch.
We're all DI, you guys mean IA.
xpeacex

[OL FU]

Just to correct this, UD had 8 (yup, just eight) DI transfers on that '03 team. That number was less than in 2000 when a Tubby-led team took 13 DI transfers to the semifinal game, yet nary a mention was made of that.




xlolx xlolx No offense to the great one but how old is Tubbyxsmiley_wix

[GannonFan]

xlolx xlolx No offense to the great one but how old is Tubbyxsmiley_wix

He's 82 years old, just had a birthday a few weeks ago.

[LacesOut]

Just random thoughts from a quasi UD fan......

I don't agree with a public forum to call out Keeler or question him. Any thoughts/comments/suggestions about the direction of the program can be done behind closed doors, maybe include other UD coaches or a BOT member or two as well. Grill Keeler then and there.

I remember back when UD got smoked in the I-AA playoffs by the Marshall team that Randy Moss and a couple other big time I-A transfer were playing for them. After that game Tubby said something to the effect of, "That was not a true I-AA team we were playing." But yet his team of 2000 had 13 some odd transfers?!

And this seasons UD team, the TE was a transfer, the QB, two of the RB's, and maybe a couple of defensive players also? (I ask because I don't follow this team all too much, so I really don't know). So that only leads me to believe that Keelers recruiting and development of young players is not too good. Where are the redshirt sophmores/juniors/seniors that should be out there on the field playing? My only guess is they don't have them, so transfers need to come into the program to start and also for depth.

[OL FU]

He's 82 years old, just had a birthday a few weeks ago.

Well he deserves to be able to say what he wants but heck I am 51 and i can't remember what i did yesterday:o

[GannonFan]

And this seasons UD team, the TE was a transfer, the QB, two of the RB's, and maybe a couple of defensive players also? (I ask because I don't follow this team all too much, so I really don't know). So that only leads me to believe that Keelers recruiting and development of young players is not too good. Where are the redshirt sophmores/juniors/seniors that should be out there on the field playing? My only guess is they don't have them, so transfers need to come into the program to start and also for depth.

Yes, the TE, the original QB, and two of the main RB's used were transfers. Also, two guys on the defensive line were transfers. The rest of them (half the offense and 9 guys on defense) were all home-grown players, as were most of the depth. There were 90+ players on the team this year, and about a tenth of them were transfers. That's number isn't crazy high, and if they had made the right choice in terms of QB none of this would matter as UD would've either been in the playoffs or had just barely missed making the playoffs. Winning cures a lot of ills.

[State Line Liquors]

When I think Tubby, for some reason the word curmudgeon comes to mind...

Anyways, Wofford would likely get some more FBS type transfers requesting to play for them if they didn't run the '3 yards and a cloud of dust' offense. A program is not allowed to actively seek out any player at any other school. The player has to initiate the contact.

If the Wofford fan was at the UD Woffy game in '03 they would probably recall the 14k + attendance. I hear that football players enjoy playing in front of decent sized crowds every now and again. xwhistlex

[OL FU]

When I think Tubby, for some reason the word curmudgeon comes to mind...

Anyways, Wofford would likely get some more FBS type transfers requesting to play for them if they didn't run the '3 yards and a cloud of dust' offense. A program is not allowed to actively seek out any player at any other school. The player has to initiate the contact.

If the Wofford fan was at the UD Woffy game in '03 they would probably recall the 14k + attendance. I hear that football players enjoy playing in front of decent sized crowds every now and again. xwhistlex


Three yards and a cloud of dust ain't what they run anymorexsmiley_wix

[State Line Liquors]

Three yards and a cloud of dust ain't what they run anymorexsmiley_wix

My real point is that UD plays similar to a pro style offense. It certainly doesn't hurt as a selling point to someone unhappy with their playing time at an FBS school.

[LacesOut]

if they had made the right choice in terms of QB none of this would matter as UD would've either been in the playoffs or had just barely missed making the playoffs. Winning cures a lot of ills.

Do you honestly feel that the only issue on this years UD team was the QB position/play?

[LacesOut]

My real point is that UD plays similar to a pro style offense. It certainly doesn't hurt as a selling point to someone unhappy with their playing time at an FBS school.

Great screen name!!!! LMAO

[ChickenMan]

Do you honestly feel that the only issue on this years UD team was the QB position/play?

It may not have been the ONLY issue.. but it was without a doubt the MAJOR issue and had there been quality QB play.. the other problems would have been far less significant.

[GannonFan]

Do you honestly feel that the only issue on this years UD team was the QB position/play?

It was the largest issue by far - the offensive line, the other area of concern, played well under the QB position was exposed. Questionable playcalling by the first year ever offensive coordinator certainly played a part as well. So if I had to list it in terms of which issue had the most impact on the poor season, I go with the following 3:

1. QB Play
2. Offensive playcalling/gameplan
3. Offensive line inadequacies

of course, KC is the captain of the ship and everything falls under his responsibilities, so he's ultimately to blame. But if they get #1 right above, #'s 2 and 3 may not have happened. Problem is, for 2009 that is, is there is no current fix for problem #1, and problems #2 and #3 will be there again if they can't find a QB.

[Hoyadestroya85]

It was the largest issue by far - the offensive line, the other area of concern, played well under the QB position was exposed. Questionable playcalling by the first year ever offensive coordinator certainly played a part as well. So if I had to list it in terms of which issue had the most impact on the poor season, I go with the following 3:

1. QB Play
2. Offensive playcalling/gameplan
3. Offensive line inadequacies

of course, KC is the captain of the ship and everything falls under his responsibilities, so he's ultimately to blame. But if they get #1 right above, #'s 2 and 3 may not have happened. Problem is, for 2009 that is, is there is no current fix for problem #1, and problems #2 and #3 will be there again if they can't find a QB.
I know KC played linebacker.. but what is his specialty?
Offense or Defense?

[GannonFan]

I know KC played linebacker.. but what is his specialty?
Offense or Defense?

I believe he says offense, and there is certainly a feeling that he may have been calling the shots over the head of the OC. The OC this year was Brian Ginn, a former UD QB under Tubby in the late 90's. Ginn basically has always been at UD save for one year as an assistant elsewhere, and never held the title of coordinator until this year. So it certainly lays itself out to question how much KC was calling things versus Ginn.

And yes, KC does consider himself to be an offensive specialist now that I remember. He ran Rowan's offense and he certainly stipulated the way the offense was to be run when he took over at UD.

[LacesOut]

It was the largest issue by far - the offensive line, the other area of concern, played well under the QB position was exposed. Questionable playcalling by the first year ever offensive coordinator certainly played a part as well. So if I had to list it in terms of which issue had the most impact on the poor season, I go with the following 3:

1. QB Play
2. Offensive playcalling/gameplan
3. Offensive line inadequacies

of course, KC is the captain of the ship and everything falls under his responsibilities, so he's ultimately to blame. But if they get #1 right above, #'s 2 and 3 may not have happened. Problem is, for 2009 that is, is there is no current fix for problem #1, and problems #2 and #3 will be there again if they can't find a QB.

Thanks for the detailed answer, GF. I ask because I caught only a few UD games this season on TV, so I wasn't totally sure, and it just appeared as the entire offense was brutal/horrific; the OL, the RB's, the QB, the scared and bewildering play calling, the lack of a TE, and a group of WR's that Flacco made look incredible, when maybe they are just ok/good.

Yeah, seems as if they have quite a large problem on the offensive side of the ball. I'm not much of a football guru, but it did also appear that their OL got consistently manhandled/overmatched versus decent DL's.

[GannonFan]

Thanks for the detailed answer, GF. I ask because I caught only a few UD games this season on TV, so I wasn't totally sure, and it just appeared as the entire offense was brutal/horrific; the OL, the RB's, the QB, the scared and bewildering play calling, the lack of a TE, and a group of WR's that Flacco made look incredible, when maybe they are just ok/good.

Yeah, seems as if they have quite a large problem on the offensive side of the ball.

To be honest, I think the offense quit during the year, especially when no changes were coming at the QB spot. Schoenhoft shouldn't have played after the 4 INT game at Furman in a game UD could have easily won. Albany made him look alright though so he stayed on and had a 40 yard passing day at UMass. Still not enough, they kept him in there to throw 3 picks against Maine. Only after a 45 yard passing day against W&M and a second concussion did they finally relent and put someone else in. You leave someone in the QB spot who clearly can't play for 7 games and it's no wonder some players quit on you. KC shoulders all the blame for that.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Rob Schoenhoft is a perfect example of why the Quarterback position is so hard to scout.. Big, Mobile, with a cannon for an arm.. but not a football player
I mean that in the least pejorative sense

[Monarch History]

I agree that Tubby shouldn't have callerd out KC in a public forum. xnonox My guess is there is something else between the two other than transfers.xchinscratchx

[art vandelay]

I get the feeling that if the Hens were on the practice field right now getting ready for a first round game this transfer stuff would be a non-issue.xtwocentsx

true, but they arnt so it is. the point is that transfers year in and year out are not building the tradition that they want which is why they arnt in the playoffs.

[AAadict]

Keeler football is different than Tubby football. Sure it was the toughest year since I have been rooting for UD but Keeler has had quite a bit of success too. Tubby should just hang out with all the aged fans who reminisce about the old wing-T. I was getting pretty tired of Tubby ball when he retired and think that Keeler is the right guy for todays FCS football. Schoenhoft as with Riccio had some very big shoes to fill. Sonny did pretty good. Rob did not. But I remember when Joe Flacco was losing to Albany and being pretty down with a 5-6 season a couple years ago.

[Hoyadestroya85]

I've begun to look past the transfer issue because Joe Flacco just seems like the kinda guy you want your sister to date (not because of his money either). I think in general these are good guys and even with your own recruits you're gonna have problems (see Villanova 2007).

[Rob Iola]

I've begun to look past the transfer issue because Joe Flacco just seems like the kinda guy you want your sister to date (not because of his money either). I think in general these are good guys and even with your own recruits you're gonna have problems (see Villanova 2007).
Hell, Joe Flacco's the kinda guy I'D like to date, and I'm not even gay...

[WMTribe90]

I think any team that takes more than one or two transfers a year seriously risks damaging team chemistry. You build a special bond with your team mates during your freshman year that is alot harder to create when an upperclassman trasnfers into the program, especially if that transfer is seen as "taking" playing time from another deserving player that was there from day one sweating it out. My advice is that if you bring in a trasnfer you better be filling a real hole in the line-up and not just upgrading because the opportunity was there.

QB is particularly tricky becasue there is only one spot on the field. UD is in a real bind now IMO. Keeler has built a tradition of transfer QBs such that I think it would be hard to sell the program to a HS recruit. If my son were a recruited HS QB I would have a hard time sending him to UD knowing that over the course of his career he will have to beat out two or three IA transfers. Additionally, keeler has not demonstrated that he can develop a HS recruit to play in his offensive system. Now, until this year none of this was a problem as Keeler landed a successful string of transfer QB's. But now, he's apparently missed on two transfer QB's and has developed no pipeline of recruited HS QBs. So, his choice now is to bring in a third transfer QB or start a freshman QB and try to develop him for 2010.

Now look at programs like UNH, WM and Villanova, which all use complex passing attacks, especially UNH and WM. All three programs seemingly reload at QB and rely almost exclusively on QBs brought to the program out of HS and developed from within.

Taking transfers in mass is a high risk, high reward practice and UD has seen the good and the bad under Keeler.

[Hoyadestroya85]

Hell, Joe Flacco's the kinda guy I'D like to date, and I'm not even gay...

It's just a matter of teaching yourself to look past the unibrow

[GannonFan]

I think any team that takes more than one or two transfers a year seriously risks damaging team chemistry.



Of course, the example of Tubby taking more than one or two transfers a year for about 30 years in a row kinda bucks that argument a little bit. As with bringing in any player, it's all about who you bring in and how they fit with the team, not the volume of players that come in. Keeler's not brought in any more transfers than Tubby did for decades, so the issue can't be bringing in transfers per se.



QB is particularly tricky becasue there is only one spot on the field. UD is in a real bind now IMO. Keeler has built a tradition of transfer QBs such that I think it would be hard to sell the program to a HS recruit. If my son were a recruited HS QB I would have a hard time sending him to UD knowing that over the course of his career he will have to beat out two or three IA transfers. Additionally, keeler has not demonstrated that he can develop a HS recruit to play in his offensive system. Now, until this year none of this was a problem as Keeler landed a successful string of transfer QB's. But now, he's apparently missed on two transfer QB's and has developed no pipeline of recruited HS QBs. So, his choice now is to bring in a third transfer QB or start a freshman QB and try to develop him for 2010.

Now look at programs like UNH, WM and Villanova, which all use complex passing attacks, especially UNH and WM. All three programs seemingly reload at QB and rely almost exclusively on QBs brought to the program out of HS and developed from within.

It's not so much that he's brought in and used transfer QB's, it's that he's done nothing to build depth beyond that in 7 years, a good portion of which he didn't have to contend with a bad image of always bringing in transfers. The approach is the issue, and he seems only to target the guys who are unlikely to pick UD in the first place. Of course, that helps at times as Flacco was heavily recruited out of high school, only to see him go to Pitt, but then he had UD on his mind when things didn't work out at Pitt with the coaching change.

And as for the likes of W&M and nova, yes, they reload a bit at QB, but W&M hasn't seen the playoffs since '04 (and just had their first above .500 year since then) and nova is in the playoffs for the first time since '02. That's a combined 8 years of no playoffs for teams that just reload.

[89Hen]

Keeler football is different than Tubby football. Sure it was the toughest year since I have been rooting for UD but Keeler has had quite a bit of success too. Tubby should just hang out with all the aged fans who reminisce about the old wing-T. I was getting pretty tired of Tubby ball when he retired and think that Keeler is the right guy for todays FCS football. Schoenhoft as with Riccio had some very big shoes to fill. Sonny did pretty good. Rob did not. But I remember when Joe Flacco was losing to Albany and being pretty down with a 5-6 season a couple years ago.
xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xthumbsupx

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Love Tubby to death, but he should just STFU. Everyone has to keep in mind that he never won a DI title and it has to kill him that Keeler has (and another runner-up).

Look, losing sucks. Setting the school record for number of losses sucks. But pissy fans who love to call out the current coaching staff sucks 100x more. I have stopped posting on gohens.net becuase that's all that is there... pissy fans. I've told them all that they should give up their parking spots and stay home. I'll gladly take their spots. xmadx

[WMTribe90]

And as for the likes of W&M and nova, yes, they reload a bit at QB, but W&M hasn't seen the playoffs since '04 (and just had their first above .500 year since then) and nova is in the playoffs for the first time since '02. That's a combined 8 years of no playoffs for teams that just reload.

Didn't know we were talking about the playoffs? I also see you conveniently left UNH out of your playoff retort? Perhaps because they're making their league leading 4th or 5th consecutive playoff appearence with barely a transfer on the roster.

Honestly, I wish WM could take a few more transfers to add some depth and fill a few holes. We've average about 0.5 transfers/year for the last decade. The point I've seen several UD posters make is that a powerhouse program like UD is an easy recruiting draw based on fan support, academcis, and history of success. Something is wrong if you need to bring in four or five transfers every year. I agree with the earlier UD poster that said that Keeler tends to shelve HS recruits early on if the don't pay instant dividends instead of working with them for two or even three years and developing them into starters.

[art vandelay]

Of course, the example of Tubby taking more than one or two transfers a year for about 30 years in a row kinda bucks that argument a little bit. As with bringing in any player, it's all about who you bring in and how they fit with the team, not the volume of players that come in. Keeler's not brought in any more transfers than Tubby did for decades, so the issue can't be bringing in transfers per se.



It's not so much that he's brought in and used transfer QB's, it's that he's done nothing to build depth beyond that in 7 years, a good portion of which he didn't have to contend with a bad image of always bringing in transfers. The approach is the issue, and he seems only to target the guys who are unlikely to pick UD in the first place. Of course, that helps at times as Flacco was heavily recruited out of high school, only to see him go to Pitt, but then he had UD on his mind when things didn't work out at Pitt with the coaching change.

And as for the likes of W&M and nova, yes, they reload a bit at QB, but W&M hasn't seen the playoffs since '04 (and just had their first above .500 year since then) and nova is in the playoffs for the first time since '02. That's a combined 8 years of no playoffs for teams that just reload.

what about UNH. they are in their 6th strait season with a QB on the second team all conference or better after only one season without.

[GannonFan]

xrulesx xrulesx xrulesx xthumbsupx

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. Love Tubby to death, but he should just STFU. Everyone has to keep in mind that he never won a DI title and it has to kill him that Keeler has (and another runner-up).

Look, losing sucks. Setting the school record for number of losses sucks. But pissy fans who love to call out the current coaching staff sucks 100x more. I have stopped posting on gohens.net becuase that's all that is there... pissy fans. I've told them all that they should give up their parking spots and stay home. I'll gladly take their spots. xmadx

hey, I'm on that board and I don't think I'm a pissy fan!!!! :p

[D1B]

I think any team that takes more than one or two transfers a year seriously risks damaging team chemistry. You build a special bond with your team mates during your freshman year that is alot harder to create when an upperclassman trasnfers into the program, especially if that transfer is seen as "taking" playing time from another deserving player that was there from day one sweating it out. My advice is that if you bring in a trasnfer you better be filling a real hole in the line-up and not just upgrading because the opportunity was there.

QB is particularly tricky becasue there is only one spot on the field. UD is in a real bind now IMO. Keeler has built a tradition of transfer QBs such that I think it would be hard to sell the program to a HS recruit. If my son were a recruited HS QB I would have a hard time sending him to UD knowing that over the course of his career he will have to beat out two or three IA transfers. Additionally, keeler has not demonstrated that he can develop a HS recruit to play in his offensive system. Now, until this year none of this was a problem as Keeler landed a successful string of transfer QB's. But now, he's apparently missed on two transfer QB's and has developed no pipeline of recruited HS QBs. So, his choice now is to bring in a third transfer QB or start a freshman QB and try to develop him for 2010.

Now look at programs like UNH, WM and Villanova, which all use complex passing attacks, especially UNH and WM. All three programs seemingly reload at QB and rely almost exclusively on QBs brought to the program out of HS and developed from within.

Taking transfers in mass is a high risk, high reward practice and UD has seen the good and the bad under Keeler.

Well done.xthumbsupx More often than not, transfers are a cancer on a team. Keeler is the Kelvin Sampson of FCS football.

Nice work Tubby!

[89Hen]

hey, I'm on that board and I don't think I'm a pissy fan!!!! :p
Well if you aint pissy, then you're pu**y. Seems like I was alone speaking up. :p

[89Hen]

Taking transfers in mass is a high risk, high reward practice and UD has seen the good and the bad under Keeler.
Bullseye. I said something similar on gohens when I asked if they'd rather have the 2000's when the Hens went to Chatty twice and had losing seasons, or the 1990's when the Hens were a LOT more consistant, but never went to the finals. For me, give me regular trips to Chatty and keep records like UNH's consecutive trips to nowhere special.

[DTSpider]

There is no cardinal rule on transfers. Richmond takes very very few transfers. It's more a product of the academic environment (i.e. a very small undergraduate focused university) than anything else. It seems to be working for us ok right now.

Other schools take a lot and it works for them. The winning, or lack thereof, in Newark is about more than just transfers. There has not been depth on that team in a long time. I think that the fact that schools like JMU, UR & W&M have invested millions on their programs also makes a huge difference.

[GannonFan]

Didn't know we were talking about the playoffs? I also see you conveniently left UNH out of your playoff retort? Perhaps because they're making their league leading 4th or 5th consecutive playoff appearence with barely a transfer on the roster.

Honestly, I wish WM could take a few more transfers to add some depth and fill a few holes. We've average about 0.5 transfers/year for the last decade. The point I've seen several UD posters make is that a powerhouse program like UD is an easy recruiting draw based on fan support, academcis, and history of success. Something is wrong if you need to bring in four or five transfers every year. I agree with the earlier UD poster that said that Keeler tends to shelve HS recruits early on if the don't pay instant dividends instead of working with them for two or even three years and developing them into starters.


what about UNH. they are in their 6th strait season with a QB on the second team all conference or better after only one season without.

UNH is different than the other two but I think that's because UNH has the best coach in the conference by a wide margin. McDonnell was working wonders up in Durham before he was getting players, and now he's getting them and he's winning and making the playoffs every year. It does help a tad that UNH is in the CAA North and doesn't always face the gauntlet of the CAA South teams year in and year out, but he's won his share of games against those teams too so kudos to him.

nova struggled finding a QB after Brett Gordon left in '02 and is winning now due to a great defense and a great ground game and W&M had it's ups and downs with Jake Phillips/Mike Potts and didn't make the playoffs with him under center. UD's won 56 games under Keeler's regime, which is still 6 more than nova has won in the same time period and 15 more than W&M has won. All is not as wrong as it's made out to be.

[GannonFan]

Well if you aint pissy, then you're pu**y. Seems like I was alone speaking up. :p

I believe I've been called plenty of names already by those who have been waiting 7 years to say they don't like where things are (and they were very silent for many of those years, '03, '04, and '07 in particular).

[GannonFan]

Well done.xthumbsupx More often than not, transfers are a cancer on a team. Keeler is the Kelvin Sampson of FCS football.

Nice work Tubby!

And again, Tubby often had more transfers on his teams than Keeler's had on his, Tubby just didn't have multiple message boards detailing every nuance of that very salient fact. xthumbsupx

[jmufan999]

i wouldn't be concerned if i was a Hens fan.

this is a premier program, Delaware will be back. pains me to type that.

[Hoyadestroya85]

And again, Tubby often had more transfers on his teams than Keeler's had on his, Tubby just didn't have multiple message boards detailing every nuance of that very salient fact. xthumbsupx

KC doesn't have 300 wins like Tubby did though.. Tubby's method was tested and true and he recruited 1 and a half NFL starting QBs (as a giants fan, Brunner counts as a half a starter in my book) and it could have been more had he run a different offense. Tubby should probably keep his mouth shut, but this is the price you pay for keeping a former coach so close to the program.

[charliej]

I can't blame a coach for taking transfers,but Keeler had the reputation of "Transfer U" before he ever got to UD. He built alot of teams out of DI transfers while at Rowan(Glassboro St.)

Even then,he had good teams but I don't recall him ever bringing home a championship.

I do agree that it was wrong for Tubby to call him to the carpet like he did.Definately not in the best interest of the program IMO.

[ngineer]

I think if the transfer rule is over-used, it can create a lot of dissension on a squad. The question is what is 'over-used'? Certainly is a good number of transfers are brought in each year a problem with cohesion can develop. If a team has a crying need in a certain position, most will understand the reaching out to a transfer. However, to just use transfers on the same plane as recruiting is wrong.

[WildCat In The Hat]

Bullseye. I said something similar on gohens when I asked if they'd rather have the 2000's when the Hens went to Chatty twice and had losing seasons, or the 1990's when the Hens were a LOT more consistant, but never went to the finals. For me, give me regular trips to Chatty and keep records like UNH's consecutive trips to nowhere special.

Enjoy Thanksgiving with the team-now that's special.

[WOCO]

I could be wrong, but I don't think wofford has taken 1 transfer ever.

[Skjellyfetti]

I could be wrong, but I don't think wofford has taken 1 transfer ever.

http://athletics.wofford.edu/roster.aspx?rp_id=1280

[Hoyadestroya85]

who's eating crow now?
Only judge a school if they take bad kids and keep them.. don't judge them if they accept transfers only judge them if they accept bad transfers.

[89Hen]

Enjoy Thanksgiving with the team-now that's special.
Have fun bowing out early. xcoffeex

[GannonFan]

KC doesn't have 300 wins like Tubby did though.. Tubby's method was tested and true and he recruited 1 and a half NFL starting QBs (as a giants fan, Brunner counts as a half a starter in my book) and it could have been more had he run a different offense. Tubby should probably keep his mouth shut, but this is the price you pay for keeping a former coach so close to the program.

If you're going to count Brunner has half a starter (even though he did take the Giants to the playoffs) then you need to count Komlo as half a starter as well as he started for the Lions in the late 70's.


I can't blame a coach for taking transfers,but Keeler had the reputation of "Transfer U" before he ever got to UD. He built alot of teams out of DI transfers while at Rowan(Glassboro St.)

Even then,he had good teams but I don't recall him ever bringing home a championship.

I do agree that it was wrong for Tubby to call him to the carpet like he did.Definately not in the best interest of the program IMO.

The thing about DIII, though, is that you have to take transfers, generally, to be good. Who do you think Keeler lost all those national titles to (he made something like 4 or 5 national title games) - if I recall, Mount Union is, and was, absolutely loaded with transfers. That worked out pretty well for them, don't you think?

[Hoyadestroya85]

Is there any feeling that KC is using this job as a stepping stone?

[Rob Iola]

Is there any feeling that KC is using this job as a stepping stone?
10 year contract - just blew off Michigan - played here - expresses undying luv for UD (FWIW)...

He's having a good run, this year notwithstanding - I don't see him moving on to FBS. Where would he get his transfers from?

[93henfan]

Is there any feeling that KC is using this job as a stepping stone?

Any more 8-loss seasons and it may be a stepping stone to West Chester or an encore at Rowan.

[charliej]

10 year contract - just blew off Michigan - played here - expresses undying luv for UD (FWIW)...

He's having a good run, this year notwithstanding - I don't see him moving on to FBS. Where would he get his transfers from?


xlolx xlolx xlolx

[UD97HENS]

I agree..if we were headed into the play-offs right now, this would not be an issue. As much as I love Coach Raymond...I think he still holds a little animosity towards Coach Keeler for winning his first Championship in just his second year as coach of The Hens. I mean come on the last time Coach Raymond saw a Championship was '79. Bottom line I don't think the transfers tarnish the integrity of the program. Coach Keeler is looking to be a championship contender. Pro football teams make trades and aquire guys in free-agency...sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. It's a chance you have to take. This year however it blew up in Keeler's face. It happens. As said earlier...when we have a winning record you don't hear any complaing except from the other schools that end up with Hen droppings on thier face after we walk off the field.

[Oldhen]

I believe I've been called plenty of names already by those who have been waiting 7 years to say they don't like where things are (and they were very silent for many of those years, '03, '04, and '07 in particular).

...and then again, there were the Cassandra's...

[Oldhen]

Any more 8-loss seasons and it may be a stepping stone to West Chester or an encore at Rowan.

....or Middletown HS...

[ChickenMan]

KC taking 'transfers' isn't the issue.. as I posted before UD doesn't regulary take an abnormal number of transfers. My issue with KC is his flawed recruiting.. which in turn leads back to the transfer issue. UD has a lot of advantages when it comes to recruting.. but KC as of yet hasn't been able to produce in the manner that is expected at UD. The reason UD has suffered a few down years recently.. isn't because of too many transfers.. it's because of the recruiting problems. Until KC gets his recruiting up to par.. we will likely continue to see this rollercoaster ride with high peaks but too many valleys.

[R.A.]

Wow, drama at UD.

There was no problem Flacco as a transfer, right?

[Oldhen]

Wow, drama at UD.

There was no problem Flacco as a transfer, right?


No real 'Plan B' last year either... we were quite lucky Joe never got hurt.

[UD97HENS]

That's my point RA...when The Hens are doing good you don't here anything from anyone, as soon as things start goin bad...even though he may bleed blue....Ole Tubby has to start ranting about stuff that just goes to show he just may be a fair weather fan....old coach or not. When we are flying high everyone jumps on the band wagon...things are dreary and all the worms come out of the woodwork. BOOOO to Coach Raymond!!!!

[art vandelay]

Bullseye. I said something similar on gohens when I asked if they'd rather have the 2000's when the Hens went to Chatty twice and had losing seasons, or the 1990's when the Hens were a LOT more consistant, but never went to the finals. For me, give me regular trips to Chatty and keep records like UNH's consecutive trips to nowhere special.

I would much rather have what UNH has. At least they are getting the oportunity year in and year out. Trust me they will get over the humb and you will be sticking your foot in your mouth. Not to mention UNH only lost once when they were suppose to win and that was 2005 against UNI. HUN has also been able to gaine some pretty good recruits for future teams. So please give me a break on this going nowhere garbage.

[UD97HENS]

Many trips to Chatty here....would rather at least make it to the show, then to be able to count how many times we made the playoffs. What good is a season to make it to the play-offs and be knocked out while doin so. There is a little pride with sayin that you played in The Show. Consistency??? Yes Tubby can say he made it to the play-offs consistently but to what avail? georgia Southern ring a bell to any other UD fans but me?

[art vandelay]

so you sell your soul to win a championship and then the following year have nothing left because you didnt bother getting good recruits.
Nope you will never convince me that that is how you build a football program.

[BlueHen86]

so you sell your soul to win a championship and then the following year have nothing left because you didnt bother getting good recruits.
Nope you will never convince me that that is how you build a football program.
I'm with 89Hen on this. I'd rather be real good sometimes and real bad sometimes, as opposed to being just above average all the time.

[UD97HENS]

Agreeing with BlueHen86 and 89Hen...that's basically what I am saying too...I mean really are you remembered by being average for many years or are you remembered by how many times you had GREAT seasons? Great seasons!!!!

[art vandelay]

I'm with 89Hen on this. I'd rather be real good sometimes and real bad sometimes, as opposed to being just above average all the time.

Um five strait years in the playoffs is not average. my point is that teams like UNH have put themselves in position to have the oportunity to win the championship each year.

[art vandelay]

Agreeing with BlueHen86 and 89Hen...that's basically what I am saying too...I mean really are you remembered by being average for many years or are you remembered by how many times you had GREAT seasons? Great seasons!!!!

again five years in the playoffs is a little better than average.

[UD97HENS]

Ok five years in the play-offs and what did you get???? That is our point I do believe. People don't worry about who made the play-offs..they REMEMBER who won the play-offs. Either way the thread is about Tubby calling out Keeler's ethics....with UD for instance are we now talked about as the team that went to the play-offs many times during the late 80's and 90's or the team that after getting a new coach, 2 years later made history by being the only team to ever shut-out an opponent in the chamionship game, or going back to the title game again a couple of years later? Making it to the play-offs is not good enough, winning is what it is all about. If he was still living I would say that to whoever it was that said...."it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game..." chances are they probaly lost alot of games...lol

[art vandelay]

Ok five years in the play-offs and what did you get???? That is our point I do believe. People don't worry about who made the play-offs..they REMEMBER who won the play-offs. Either way the thread is about Tubby calling out Keeler's ethics....with UD for instance are we now talked about as the team that went to the play-offs many times during the late 80's and 90's or the team that after getting a new coach, 2 years later made history by being the only team to ever shut-out an opponent in the chamionship game, or going back to the title game again a couple of years later? Making it to the play-offs is not good enough, winning is what it is all about. If he was still living I would say that to whoever it was that said...."it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game..." chances are they probaly lost alot of games...lol

they got/ will get 5 years of great recruits so they can win the championship. and this year is still open. as a recruit five years of success is much more appealing than 1 championship that happened six years ago, won with transfers. and one championship appearance last year. the bottom line is that UNH has made a name for itself as a program where success is bread wile Delaware is known as a program where success is brought in. again my point stands UNH has put itself in position to win a championship Delaware has not. ask a recruit.

[ChickenMan]

There is no reason to have to choose between a few peaks and too many valleys when it comes to the state of the Delaware football program. UD has far too much going for it to have the kind of season we just witnessed. However IF I had to choose.. I'd much rather have the 'consistant'.. well above average program that proceeeded KC. Duing those years every game was meaningful and UD was always very competitive with their toughest opponents. It's no fun having your season end in October as has happened in three or four of KC's seven years. Even worse.. it is really depressing when going into a big game you KNOW that your team has no shot to win. That NEVER occurred prior to KC's arrival.. but just last year I knew that the Hens had no chance to win in at least three CAA games (JMU, Richmond, Villanova). THAT is unaceptable to me and it should be unacceptable to every Delaware fan and the fact that UD has had two championship appearences in the last seven years will never excuse that futility.

[art vandelay]

thank you chickenman that is what i was saying

[Hoyadestroya85]

There is no reason to have to choose between a few peaks and too many valleys when it comes to the state of the Delaware football program. UD has far too much going for it to have the kind of season we just witnessed. However IF I had to choose.. I'd much rather have the 'consistant'.. well above average program that proceeeded KC. Duing those years every game was meaningful and UD was always very competitive with their toughest opponents. It's no fun having your season end in October as has happened in three or four of KC's seven years. Even worse.. it is really depressing when going into a big game you KNOW that your team has no shot to win. That NEVER occurred prior to KC's arrival.. but just last year I knew that the Hens had no chance to win in at least three CAA games (JMU, Richmond, Villanova). THAT is unaceptable to me and it should be unacceptable to every Delaware fan and the fact that UD has had two championship appearences in the last seven years will never excuse that futility.

xoutofrepx

Well said. I have nothing but respect for the history of Delaware's Program and their fans.. but to see them as a doormat this season was just sad. I hope that KC gets the message that you have to get kids that you can develop for four years. I wouldn't doubt it that the fact that KC takes a lot of transfers is a deterrent for recruits.. if i was making my decision especially if I was a Quarterback; I'd just straight up blow UD off because I know that I'd have no chance to play unless the other guy got hurt.

[WildcatFan]

I have nothing but respect for the Delaware Football Program. You have a great fan base. Enjoyed my trips to Delaware more than any other road trip. UNH fan support does not compare but it is building each year. That is why it is important to get into the playoffs - regardless of how far we go. The playoffs have given us the national attention needed to help with the recruiting process and to continue to build our fan support so we can finally get a first class stadium.

[Woody Hayes]

KC Keeler wore sunglasses in our Dome when Flacco kicked our butts last year. Keeler is a punk. I know a coach that used to coach against him in DIII. He said he was the cockiest coach ever.

[BlueHen86]

Um five strait years in the playoffs is not average. my point is that teams like UNH have put themselves in position to have the oportunity to win the championship each year.

Agreed, which is why I said "above average".xreadx

[GannonFan]

KC Keeler wore sunglasses in our Dome when Flacco kicked our butts last year. Keeler is a punk. I know a coach that used to coach against him in DIII. He said he was the cockiest coach ever.

Uh, he has a medical condition in which he has extreme trouble handling bright lights, hence the need to wear sunglasses inside on occasion as well as at night, depending on how bright the lights are in those cases. But by all means, rip him for his physical ailment. While you're at it, do you rip any coach that needs a wheelchair to get around as a cocky coach because he's just lounging around during the game? xrolleyesx

[Hoyadestroya85]

Uh, he has a medical condition in which he has extreme trouble handling bright lights, hence the need to wear sunglasses inside on occasion as well as at night, depending on how bright the lights are in those cases. But by all means, rip him for his physical ailment. While you're at it, do you rip any coach that needs a wheelchair to get around as a cocky coach because he's just lounging around during the game? xrolleyesx

Didn't Jim McMahon have something like that?

[eaglesrthe1]

Even if Tubby was 100% right on the issue, he's 100% wrong on the method. He didn't do the team, program, or coaching staff any favors by publicly sowing discord.

Keeler should have just waved him off while showing him the pinkie ring he picked up a few years ago.

[Woody Hayes]

Uh, he has a medical condition in which he has extreme trouble handling bright lights, hence the need to wear sunglasses inside on occasion as well as at night, depending on how bright the lights are in those cases. But by all means, rip him for his physical ailment. While you're at it, do you rip any coach that needs a wheelchair to get around as a cocky coach because he's just lounging around during the game? xrolleyesx

The man has mental issues as well. I haven't seen a coach in a wheel chair yet so I can't answer that.

[State Line Liquors]

KC Keeler wore sunglasses in our Dome when Flacco kicked our butts last year. Keeler is a punk. I know a coach that used to coach against him in DIII. He said he was the cockiest coach ever.

That dome is actually brighter than most outdoor stadiums.

There's alot of people out there than don't like Keeler. If we're going on the basis of your beef with him and the comments of some DIII coach his team probably smoked, then I'll reserve judgement on his personality since I don't know him personally.

....Anyways, Delaware should not have to settle for the high peaks and low valleys. Delaware should be consistently good (in the playoffs) and be capable of playing for a title in any given year. That's not unrealistic given the passion of the fans and the resources the University has to draw from. Case in point App St.

[Rob Iola]

The man has mental issues as well. I haven't seen a coach in a wheel chair yet so I can't answer that.
You can leave now. Seriously. You add nothing to the conversation.

Coach Keeler is confident to the point of being arrogant, so it's satisfying to his many critics when he falls flat on his face. But he's obviously got a blueprint and a plan for a successful program - he promised a National Championship when he was hired and he delivered.

[State Line Liquors]

The man has mental issues as well. I haven't seen a coach in a wheel chair yet so I can't answer that.

Would you say that Keeler's 'mental issues' are any worse than those of a spaghetti armed quarterback that bawls like a lost kitten after his overhyped team's season ends?

[Rob Iola]

Would you say that Keeler's 'mental issues' are any worse than those of a spaghetti armed quarterback that bawls like a lost kitten after his overhyped team's season ends?
Or a coach who abandons the run (after averaging about 10 yards per carry) and starts calling all pass plays by said spaghetti armed quarterback?

[89Hen]

The man has mental issues as well. I haven't seen a coach in a wheel chair yet so I can't answer that.
Micky Matthews' son patrols the JMU sidelines in one. How big do you feel right now?

[89Hen]

I'd much rather have the 'consistant'.. well above average program that proceeeded KC. Duing those years every game was meaningful and UD was always very competitive with their toughest opponents.
xrolleyesx

[89Hen]

I would much rather have what UNH has. At least they are getting the oportunity year in and year out. Trust me they will get over the humb and you will be sticking your foot in your mouth. Not to mention UNH only lost once when they were suppose to win and that was 2005 against UNI. HUN has also been able to gaine some pretty good recruits for future teams. So please give me a break on this going nowhere garbage.
We'll see. How many trips to the playoffs will it take? The Hens have been there, done that. Hens went to the playoffs in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997 and 1999.... how many trips to Chatty? Not one. You are talking to people that have a lot more experience with this.

[ChickenMan]

xrolleyesx


I have been following UD football a lot longer than you and I can honestly state that I can't recall a game under Tubby when prior to the game I didn't think UD had at least a shot to win. Sure the Hens were big underdogs many times.. but I always felt they had a slim chance to win. This year alone.. there were three games.. all in the CAA no less (JMU, Richmond, Nova) that I knew going in.. that Delaware had no chance. The offense was so bad.. the worst I've seen in over 40+ years.. that I knew the Hens could not win. This 2008 season was a total emabarrassment and unfortunately I'm afraid it was not an abberation.. as just two years ago I was witness to the worst UD 'defense' that I have seen in 40+ years of UD football. Coincidence??? I think not.. more like a pattern. As for the peaks vs the valleys.. I prefer to see meaningful and competitve football each week.. but apparently you and some others will trade all that for a couple of great playoff runs. Not me.. but if you're happy to have half of UD's seasons over by mid October and to witness the Hens non competitiveness with the best of the CAA.. we will just have disagree.

[89Hen]

I have been following UD football a lot longer than you and I can honestly state that I can't recall a game under Tubby when prior to the game I didn't think UD had at least a shot to win. Sure the Hens were big underdogs many times.. but I always felt they had a slim chance to win. This year alone.. there were three games.. all in the CAA no less (JMU, Richmond, Nova) that I knew going in.. that Delaware had no chance.

but if you're happy to have half of UD's seasons over by mid October and to witness the Hens non competitiveness with the best of the CAA.. we will just have disagree.
Sounds like a personal problem CM. And nice hyerbole on the closing. How about "if you're happy to just win CAA's and Lamberts and never venture to the National Championship..." xcoolx I think we agree if we could have both, we'd take it, but yes we will have to agree to disagree. I prefer occassional trips to Chatty. What was Tubby's last trip to the NC game? 1982?

[ChickenMan]

I think we agree if we could have both, we'd take it, but yes we will have to agree to disagree. I prefer occassional trips to Chatty. What was Tubby's last trip to the NC game? 1982?


and other than having the great good fortune to have a NFL 1st round QB fall into his lap.. just what has KC done to inspire condidence that he will able to lead the Hens back to Chattanooga???


PS.. don't give me the '03 title.. you know that was accomplished with Tubby's players.

[89Hen]

and other than having the great good fortune to have a NFL 1st round QB fall into his lap.. just what has KC done to inspire condidence that he will able to lead the Hens back to Chattanooga???


PS.. don't give the '03 title.. you know that was accomplished with Tubby's players.
I'll tell Andy Hall and Shawn Johnson to send their rings back to you. Give me your address. xcoffeex

BTW, what did Tubby do to inspire confidence that he woule EVER lead them to Chatty?

[OL FU]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/kevncoll/Emoticons/th_1f4e507c.gif
Pardon me while I stop and listed to two of my favorite hens go at it for a whilexthumbsupx

Please continue

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/kevncoll/Emoticons/th_1f4e507c.gifAnybody else want somexconfusedx

[ChickenMan]

I'll tell Andy Hall and Shawn Johnson to send their rings back to you. Give me your address. xcoffeex

BTW, what did Tubby do to inspire confidence that he woule EVER lead them to Chatty?



Seven years in and KC's program is in total disarray.. so I repeat the question that you dodged.. just what has KC done to inspire confidence that he can lead the Hens back to Chattanooga???

[ChickenMan]

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/kevncoll/Emoticons/th_1f4e507c.gif
Pardon me while I stop and listed to two of my favorite hens go at it for a whilexthumbsupx

Please continue

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/kevncoll/Emoticons/th_1f4e507c.gifAnybody else want somexconfusedx



Obviously I stumped him with that last one.. so I declare victory and close all debate in this matter... :p

[OL FU]

Obviously I stumped him with that last one.. so I declare victory and close all debate in this matter... :p

Just when it was getting good tooxnodx












I have never seen 89 quit on an argument no matter how inconclusive the findings, unimportant the subject matter or how many was lined up against himxlolx

[art vandelay]

We'll see. How many trips to the playoffs will it take? The Hens have been there, done that. Hens went to the playoffs in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997 and 1999.... how many trips to Chatty? Not one. You are talking to people that have a lot more experience with this.

were you on any of those teams?

[89Hen]

Seven years in and KC's program is in total disarray.. so I repeat the question that you dodged.. just what has KC done to inspire confidence that he can lead the Hens back to Chattanooga???


Obviously I stumped him with that last one.. so I declare victory and close all debate in this matter... :p
Nah, I just jumped in the car to come to the beach. Much more sedate now that I'm back in Sussex County. :)

I don't give Tubby any credit for 2003. So I think that KC taking them to Chatty and win going through three home games in the playoffs, and then taking them BACK to Chatty four years later going to on the road twice is all the evidence I need. xpeacex

[89Hen]

were you on any of those teams?
And that has what to do with anything? xnonono2x

[art vandelay]

well i was on 3 of the UNH playoff teams 04,05,06 and you calling me less experienced seems wrong especialy if you were a fan in the stands.

[UncleSam]

Any Delaware fan who is happy or satisfied with the job KC Keeler has done with the Delaware football program needs his head examined. The current UD program is a real mess, coming off a record 8 loss season and the prospects for next year are not much brighter. KC's failure to recruit an even a somewhat competent high school QB will require the 4th consecutive transfer QB be brought in for '09. This is no way to run a program and if the transfer cycle continues, you can bet your butts that Delaware will continue to have a lot more lows than highs in any KC Keeler run program.

[UNI Pike]

I as a UNI fan have little love for Mr Keeler. However, Tubby should have kept that comment behind closed doors. Maybe that conversation has already happened more than once, how would I know?

Still, Tubby should keep is trap shut on this topic. If the transfers came in an caused actual problems (crime, flunking out, internal strife, etc) that's another issue. Just because they did not gel, well that happens. UNI's starter from the 2005 and 2006 teams were essentially the same. Made it to the NC in 05 and watched from the sidelines in 06 after being beat at home by a good D-II program.

Please re-commence the fratricide. That is all.

[89Hen]

well i was on 3 of the UNH playoff teams 04,05,06 and you calling me less experienced seems wrong especialy if you were a fan in the stands.
Congrats. That tells me that you know more about playing football. It also tells me that you haven't been around that long and that all you know about UNH football is winning season. UNH will miss the playoffs again. They will also have losing seasons again. We'll talk after that. xpeacex

[Hoyadestroya85]

Any Delaware fan who is happy or satisfied with the job KC Keeler has done with the Delaware football program needs his head examined. The current UD program is a real mess, coming off a record 8 loss season and the prospects for next year are not much brighter. KC's failure to recruit an even a somewhat competent high school QB will require the 4th consecutive transfer QB be brought in for '09. This is no way to run a program and if the transfer cycle continues, you can bet your butts that Delaware will continue to have a lot more lows than highs in any KC Keeler run program.
Don't you think that's a little unfair? I'm by no means a Delaware fan.. and for the most part.. I can't stand Keeler, but not only is he a former hen player but he's led them to chattanooga 2 times in 5 years.. not too bad

[93henfan]

Pike has the coolest avatar I've ever seen.xlolx

[89Hen]

Any Delaware fan who is happy or satisfied with the job KC Keeler has done with the Delaware football program needs his head examined. The current UD program is a real mess, coming off a record 8 loss season and the prospects for next year are not much brighter. KC's failure to recruit an even a somewhat competent high school QB will require the 4th consecutive transfer QB be brought in for '09. This is no way to run a program and if the transfer cycle continues, you can bet your butts that Delaware will continue to have a lot more lows than highs in any KC Keeler run program.
We shall see. Everyone was pretty sure this was going to be a great team this year, so to say that next year looks dismal, I'll take that with a grain of salt. NOBODY is satisfied with this year, but a program is not one year. xcoffeex

[93henfan]

Don't you think that's a little unfair? I'm by no means a Delaware fan.. and for the most part.. I can't stand Keeler, but not only is he a former hen player but he's led them to chattanooga 2 times in 5 years.. not too bad

Mr. Destroya, you've made a living out of Hen bashing and now you're throwing sympathetic bones after our 4-8 season? Get back to your regular Delaware hate schedule please. I need good basis to continue rooting against 'Nova.

[BlueHen86]

Don't you think that's a little unfair? I'm by no means a Delaware fan.. and for the most part.. I can't stand Keeler, but not only is he a former hen player but he's led them to chattanooga 2 times in 5 years.. not too bad
Good post.

[UncleSam]

We shall see. Everyone was pretty sure this was going to be a great team this year, so to say that next year looks dismal, I'll take that with a grain of salt. NOBODY is satisfied with this year, but a program is not one year. xcoffeex


I agree, here's the last 4 years, when Keeler has had to play with his recruits

'05 - 6-5
'06 - 5-6
'07 - 11-4
'08 - 4-8


1 out of 4 doesn't cut it at Delaware

[BlueHen86]

I agree, here's the last 4 years, when Keeler has had to play with his recruits

'05 - 6-5
'06 - 5-6
'07 - 11-4
'08 - 4-8


1 out of 4 doesn't cut it at Delaware
You might be right, if it weren't for the NC in 2003.

[UncleSam]

You might be right, if it weren't for the NC in 2003.

'03 wasn't accomplished with ANY of Keeler's HS recruits

[BlueHen86]

'03 wasn't accomplished with ANY of Keeler's HS recruits
So what? My point is that Keeler won a NC in 2003 and that gives him a little leeway. If he hadn't won in 2003 he might be in trouble now, as it is, I think he has a few more years before he is in real trouble job wise.

[UncleSam]

Maybe Keeler isn't in trouble, but Delaware football sure is!

[UNI Pike]

Pike has the coolest avatar I've ever seen.xlolx

Thank you. I saw this photo, and thought that UD Fans might get a chuckle out of "egg on the face" thing. Gotta laugh or you'll cry thing.

[BlueHen86]

Thank you. I saw this photo, and thought that UD Fans might get a chuckle out of "egg on the face" thing. Gotta laugh or you'll cry thing.
That is a great avatar.xthumbsupx

[Hoyadestroya85]

Mr. Destroya, you've made a living out of Hen bashing and now you're throwing sympathetic bones after our 4-8 season? Get back to your regular Delaware hate schedule please. I need good basis to continue rooting against 'Nova.
I'm in a good mood.. plus i gained a lot of respect for the heart your defense had all season. They had absolutely no help and they played like champions. But don't worry.. the bashing will start up again soon enough.

[BlueHen86]

I'm in a good mood.. plus i gained a lot of respect for the heart your defense had all season. They had absolutely no help and they played like champions. But don't worry.. the bashing will start up again soon enough.
The funny thing is, I want to hate you guys. But I have a lot of respect for Andy Talley, so I can't.

Good luck in the playoffs.

[art vandelay]

Congrats. That tells me that you know more about playing football. It also tells me that you haven't been around that long and that all you know about UNH football is winning season. UNH will miss the playoffs again. They will also have losing seasons again. We'll talk after that. xpeacex

actualy my first two seasons all we did was lose. believe me i know th history of this league and these teams. don't give me the old your to young to know.

[Henny]

If its all the same I'd rather talk about the teams in the playoffs right now. KC has made his own bed and he admits to it. Tubby is sarcastic all the way. He did tell me that he wants KC to run more misdirection though!

[89Hen]

I agree, here's the last 4 years, when Keeler has had to play with his recruits

'05 - 6-5
'06 - 5-6
'07 - 11-4
'08 - 4-8


1 out of 4 doesn't cut it at Delaware
xcoffeex
Here's Tubby's entire I-AA career...

1980 -
1981 -
1982 - National Runner-Up
1983 -
1984 -
1985 -
1986 -
1987 -
1988 -
1989 -
1990 -
1991 -
1992 -
1993 -
1994 -
1995 -
1996 -
1997 -
1998 -
1999 -
2000 -
2001 -

All played with his recuits. xcoffeex

[89Hen]

actualy my first two seasons all we did was lose. believe me i know th history of this league and these teams. don't give me the old your to young to know.
Like I said, once you've lived through ups and down, long consistant stretches, championship seasons, losing seasons, etc... either as a fan or as a player, then we can talk. You starting down the road of "did you play?" won't get you very far on fan message boards. xpeacex

BTW, I hope you do know I will most definitely be rooting for UNH tomorrow.

[Hoyadestroya85]

The funny thing is, I want to hate you guys. But I have a lot of respect for Andy Talley, so I can't.

Good luck in the playoffs.
I'm just glad we're back.. that six year stay in crapsville sucked..

[UncleSam]

xcoffeex
Here's Tubby's entire I-AA career...

1980 - 9-2
1981 - 9-3
1982 - 12-2 National Runner-Up
1983 - 4-7
1984 - 8-3
1985 - 7-4
1986 - 9-4 playoffs
1987 - 5-6
1988 - 7-5 playoffs
1989 - 7-4
1990 - 6-5
1991 - 10-2 playoffs
1992 - 11-3 playoffs
1993 - 9-4 playoffs
1994 - 7-3-1
1995 - 11-2 playoffs
1996 - 8-4 playoffs
1997 - 12-2 playoffs
1998 - 7-4
1999 - 7-4
2000 - 12-2 playoffs
2001 - 4-6

181- 81

All played with his recuits. xcoffeex


and unlike with Keeler, played very well the vast majority of the time. There is more to a quality program then National titles and KC is falling far short in that regard.

[terrierbob]

From what I know (and it's not much), Robby Davis, our 3rd string QB, is the only FBS transfer WC has, and he's from Navy. Seems to be a good academic/cultural fit.

[UncleSam]

From what I know (and it's not much), Robby Davis, our 3rd string QB, is the only FBS transfer WC has, and he's from Navy. Seems to be a good academic/cultural fit.

Transfers aren't the issue with Keeler, his transfers have been very good both on and off the field. It's his HS recruting and his seeming inability to develope players that is the real problem.

[89Hen]

and unlike with Keeler, played very well the vast majority of the time. There is more to a quality program then National titles and KC is falling far short in that regard.
When you are a top tier program, the goal is to win National Championships. Tubby fell far short of that in I-AA. As CM said, we will have to agree to disagree. Give me trips to Chatty. xpeacex

[UD97HENS]

If its all the same I'd rather talk about the teams in the playoffs right now. KC has made his own bed and he admits to it. Tubby is sarcastic all the way. He did tell me that he wants KC to run more misdirection though!



My problem with the later part of that statemnet is....Hey Tubby it's not your team anymore...you don't decide what plays to call and who does what...you retired for a reason.

[UD97HENS]

Shoot if I could recommend a QB Recruit to Keeler I would hand him...John Sclesky...If you are familiar with Delaware High School Football, then you know the name. Mr. Sclesky is the current QB for the Div I Delaware State Champions Caesar Rodney High School. KC...I urge you to take a look at this kid....he is local...he has quite an arm....he has legs....the boy can get the job done. Only problem is I think he is only a Junior this year...so this gives you plenty of time to recruit this kid. The things I saw him do in High School ball this year...WOW...and to think I am a Sussex Central homeboy....but the kid is awesome!!

[93henfan]

Shoot if I could recommend a QB Recruit to Keeler I would hand him...John Sclesky...If you are familiar with Delaware High School Football, then you know the name. Mr. Sclesky is the current QB for the Div I Delaware State Champions Caesar Rodney High School. KC...I urge you to take a look at this kid....he is local...he has quite an arm....he has legs....the boy can get the job done. Only problem is I think he is only a Junior this year...so this gives you plenty of time to recruit this kid. The things I saw him do in High School ball this year...WOW...and to think I am a Sussex Central homeboy....but the kid is awesome!!

I used to work with his dad at Dover AFB. He most certainly is a great kid from a great family. He is a senior.

Also, Delaware should be checking Brandon LeGrand from Milford as a running back next year, as he is a junior from the D-II state champions. The kid is incredible. Article (with video) about him here:
http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20081129/SPORTS14/811290329/1035/SPORTS14

One of his linemen, Alex Bell 6'5" 265, has committed to ODU's first recruiting class.

[Hens85]

For what it's worth, Sclesky was on the sidelines for the Nova game. And I agree about LeGrand. Kid is an animal.