Pioneer football question

[appfan2008]

what year did the pioneer league join Div I ???

[danefan]

http://www.pioneer-football.org/pfl/

:D
1993

xthumbsupx

[appfan2008]

wow danefan the man with knowledge!!!

[MplsBison]

The PFL is former DIII schools that were forced into the FCS because they played DI basketball and the DIII basketball schools bitched until the NCAA forced them to move.


FCS doesn't want them and DIII doesn't want them.



I'm thinking maybe DII would be the idea place for them?

[appfan2008]

sounds good to me... i always wondered why they were here...???

[danefan]

A large number of PFL (and NEC for that matter) schools have FCS teams because of the so-called "Dayton Rule".

The ruled was forced by Div III schools who felt schools like Dayton, who had successful DI basketball teams, had an unfair advantage in recruting and faciltiies. Hence, the Dayton Rule.

Teams in teh NEC that fit this bill are St. Franics, Wagner, Sacred Heart. With that being said, there are NEC teams who were ramping up to Division I in all sports, not as a result of the Dayton rule. Albany is the prime example. The Dayton Rule had no impact on Albany's move to FCS football. The NEC made Albany's transition to DI easier by not forcing a full scholarship move in football immediately.


With that being said, there is no reason to hate on the PFL. They offer the same aid that the Ivy League offers. And some of the teams have the same history that the Ivy League has (see e.g. Drake).

They play crappy schedules, but they are improving. If the schools were located in the northeast, I would have no doubt they would be playing more Patriot and Ivy league schools, just as Marist does.

[Eight Legger]

what year did the pioneer league join Div I ???

I don't think it has yet. :D

[Khan4Cats]

I will be interesting to see what happens with some of the PFL schools. I know there was a thread on here earlier with SOCON schools complaining about Davidson having non-scholarship football and using that to their advantage in basketball. Drake is in a similar position in the Valley, but has a long affiliation with the Valley overall so will likely be able to fend off any forced scholarship move. What may be more interesting will be if anything happens with the Big East Conference if it proves to unwieldy in size in the next few years and some of the "Basketball" (and Catholic) members break away and pull similar A-10 and/or MVC schools (Dayton, Creighton, Drake (not Catholic, but similar in focus). Don't see anything happening until the moratorium is lifted, though.

[MplsBison]

A large number of PFL (and NEC for that matter) schools have FCS teams because of the so-called "Dayton Rule".

The ruled was forced by Div III schools who felt schools like Dayton, who had successful DI basketball teams, had an unfair advantage in recruting and faciltiies. Hence, the Dayton Rule.

Teams in teh NEC that fit this bill are St. Franics, Wagner, Sacred Heart. With that being said, there are NEC teams who were ramping up to Division I in all sports, not as a result of the Dayton rule. Albany is the prime example. The Dayton Rule had no impact on Albany's move to FCS football. The NEC made Albany's transition to DI easier by not forcing a full scholarship move in football immediately.


With that being said, there is no reason to hate on the PFL. They offer the same aid that the Ivy League offers. And some of the teams have the same history that the Ivy League has (see e.g. Drake).

They play crappy schedules, but they are improving. If the schools were located in the northeast, I would have no doubt they would be playing more Patriot and Ivy league schools, just as Marist does.


Unless you don't believe that the Ivy schools should be DI either.

[danefan]

Unless you don't believe that the Ivy schools should be DI either.

But I don't see you harping on the Ivy's like you harp on the PFL.

If you are going to hate, you shuold be an equal opportunity hater.

[Syntax Error]

I don't think it has yet.Now don't get the NEC involved in this just because the PFL beats them every year in the Gridiron Classic. xsmiley_wix

[danefan]

Now don't get the NEC involved in this just because the PFL beats them every year in the Gridiron Classic. xsmiley_wix


????????

And its only been two years......nice smack try...xlolx

[MplsBison]

But I don't see you harping on the Ivy's like you harp on the PFL.

If you are going to hate, you shuold be an equal opportunity hater.

But the Ivy's actually have prestige.

The PFL schools are nothing but privately funded normal schools (save Morehead, which actually is a public normal school) who think of themselves as Ivy's and therefore copy the Ivy's.

[Syntax Error]

And its only been two years......nice smack try...xlolxWell, BOTH years to be exact. But the point was if you smack the PFL then you are smacking the NEC. xpeacex

[401ks]

The PFL is former DIII schools that were forced into the FCS because they played DI basketball and the DIII basketball schools bitched until the NCAA forced them to move.



Butler has NEVER been a DIII school.

[danefan]

Well, BOTH years to be exact. But the point was if you smack the PFL then you are smacking the NEC. xpeacex

Smacking the NEC of the past two years maybe. The PFL was ranked ahead of the PFL (GPI) each year except this year. I think the scholarships and play-up games are starting to separate the NEC from the PFL.

But I could have a different opinion after December 6th....

[Model Citizen]

I think the scholarships and play-up games are starting to separate the NEC from the PFL.

They have been separated for the past 15 years--you provided good examples of how the PFL has demonstrated that separation in '06 and '07.

Perhaps the scholarships have closed the gap for your conference. Or, considering how many top PFL players are injured (Rogan and Ryan only scratch the surface), maybe we should wait to draw conclusions. xnonox

[JD51]

But the Ivy's actually have prestige.

The PFL schools are nothing but privately funded normal schools (save Morehead, which actually is a public normal school) who think of themselves as Ivy's and therefore copy the Ivy's.

I'm not that familiar with formation of the PFL, but I've never heard any members making a comparison with the Ivy League. Perhaps the only school that would even have the right to would be Davidson. It appears that the PFL follows the Ivy model not out of emulation, but rather because the respective administrations don't want to lay out the $$$ to support scholarships, facilities, etc..for football, but wanted to maintain D I status in basketball and other sports.

I could be wrong and I can't speak for the other PFL members, but I believe that was the impetus for Marist joining the conference. (That and the PL wouldn't have us).

[danefan]

I'm not that familiar with formation of the PFL, but I've never heard any members making a comparison with the Ivy League. Perhaps the only school that would even have the right to would be Davidson. It appears that the PFL follows the Ivy model not out of emulation, but rather because the respective administrations don't want to lay out the $$$ to support scholarships, facilities, etc..for football, but wanted to maintain D I status in basketball and other sports.

I could be wrong and I can't speak for the other PFL members, but I believe that was the impetus for Marist joining the conference. (That and the PL wouldn't have us).

The comparison of the PFL to the Ivy's is only of the financial aid model. Both the Ivy and PFL schools provide zero athletic scholarships or equivalencies (contrast with the Patriot League schools who provide equivalencies).

Some people on here have personal issue with the PFL not providing scholarships but they overlook the fact that the Ivy league schools don't either. That's the comparison I was making and one made by PFL supporters on here.

[JD51]

The comparison of the PFL to the Ivy's is only of the financial aid model. Both the Ivy and PFL schools provide zero athletic scholarships or equivalencies (contrast with the Patriot League schools who provide equivalencies).

Some people on here have personal issue with the PFL not providing scholarships but they overlook the fact that the Ivy league schools don't either. That's the comparison I was making and one made by PFL supporters on here.

I got ya. I was responding to another post which indicated that the PFL was in some way considering themselves as comparable to the Ivy league in terms of prestige. And while new to the AGS site, I've never heard a PFL fan make such a claim.

Good luck on the 6th. I always look for the Danes to do well.

[MplsBison]

Butler has NEVER been a DIII school.

Every single PFL school is a DIII school that plays DI basketball.

[MplsBison]

I'm not that familiar with formation of the PFL, but I've never heard any members making a comparison with the Ivy League. Perhaps the only school that would even have the right to would be Davidson. It appears that the PFL follows the Ivy model not out of emulation, but rather because the respective administrations don't want to lay out the $$$ to support scholarships, facilities, etc..for football, but wanted to maintain D I status in basketball and other sports.

I could be wrong and I can't speak for the other PFL members, but I believe that was the impetus for Marist joining the conference. (That and the PL wouldn't have us).

Then they sould drop football if they don't want to support it at the FCS level.

[eaglewithabus]

I have a close friend who is a Mercer graduate and he has been talking for a year or so now about Mercer starting a football program that would compete in the PFL. I guess the PFL is considered IAA?? Of course, the team would be non scholarship, but their basketball program could be an advantage for them in recruiting as some of you have said.

[OL FU]

With that being said, there is no reason to hate on the PFL. They offer the same aid that the Ivy League offers. And some of the teams have the same history that the Ivy League has (see e.g. Drake).



I whole heartedly agree. There is no reason to smack the PFL or anyother conference because they choose a different scholarship route when the decision should be theirs and they are told which division to participate in by the NCAA. xnodx

[UAalum72]

Then they sould drop football if they don't want to support it at the FCS level.
So you agree with the Iona administration.

[USDFAN_55]

Then they sould drop football if they don't want to support it at the FCS level.

Maybe your school (I'm assuming NDSU) should drop football if they don't want to support it at the FBS levelxnonox

[OL FU]

Maybe your school (I'm assuming NDSU) should drop football if they don't want to support it at the FBS levelxnonox

The ridiculous thing is that the PFL supports football at the FCS levelxnodx There is a maximum number of scholarship but there is nothing in the rules about a minimum numberxthumbsupx

[MplsBison]

So you agree with the Iona administration.

I would rather have seen Iona support 63 scholarships and try to compete at the national FCS level.

[MplsBison]

Maybe your school (I'm assuming NDSU) should drop football if they don't want to support it at the FBS levelxnonox

I see this lame argument parroted by PFL posters all the time.



FCS is for schools that want to support 63 equivalencies.


DIII is for schools that want to support 0 equivalencies.




It's not our problem that DIII doesn't want you. FCS doesn't want you either.


Get equivalencies or get out.

[danefan]

I see this lame argument paroted by PFL posters all the time.


There was a seperate division set up for schools that did not want to support 85 scholarships but wanted to support 63 scholarships.


FCS is for schools that want 63 scholarships.


DIII is for schools that want 0 scholarships.

It's not our problem that DIII doesn't want you. FCS doesn't want you either.


Get scholarships or get out.

A couple of factual inaccuracies.

FCS wasn't set up to for teams that wanted 63 scholarships. It was set up for teams that DID NOT want 100 or so scholarships that FBS schools used to be able to offer (before the 85 limit). This is evidenced by the fact that there is no scholarships minimum in FCS.

FCS is cost-containment football.

Secondly, you state that "FCS doesn't want you either." That isn't correct either. You don't want teams that don't sponsor 63 scholarships. FCS (the NCAA) wants them here. They put them here and they support them here.

[Appfan_in_CAAland]

Every single PFL school is a DIII school that plays DI basketball.

I think its more accurate that PFL schools are DI schools that play DIII football.

Why all the fuss? This is all crazy talk. What is it about the PFL that upsets people so much? I don't get it at all. So what if the school doesn't meet the maximum football funding levels. There are dozens of other schools in FCS conferences across the country, even in the SoCon and holy CAA, that don't fully fund football. Davidson's basketball success is because they have one of the best coaches and best players in college basketball, not because they don't fund football scholarships. Drake has sucked at basketball for years until last year; non-scholarship football hadn't helped them. San Deigo, Butler, and Dayton play in primary conferences where many teams don't fund football at all, so their on reletively equal terms. And do you want to talk about those DI sports powerhouses Morehead State and Campbell? Get over it.

Wouldn't it be just as fair for the SEC, Big 12, etc. to demand of the entire FCS and all non-football sponsoring schools (and the MAC and Sun Belt, for that matter) get out of DI for all sports because they aren't funding the full 85 scholarships for football? There are those within the power conferences that argue this, and they are just as wrong as those on here that argue Dayton, etc should not be DI in any sport if they don't fund scholarship football.

[MplsBison]

A couple of factual inaccuracies.

FCS wasn't set up to for teams that wanted 63 scholarships. It was set up for teams that DID NOT want 100 or so scholarships that FBS schools used to be able to offer (before the 85 limit). This is evidenced by the fact that there is no scholarships minimum in FCS.

FCS is cost-containment football.

Secondly, you state that "FCS doesn't want you either." That isn't correct either. You don't want teams that don't sponsor 63 scholarships. FCS (the NCAA) wants them here. They put them here and they support them here.


Just because there aren't minimums in place right now doesn't mean that there shouldn't be or that there shouldn't have been any.


There is a pretty easy line between cost containment and competitiveness.

PFL teams don't even try to blur the line.


I'd rather see FCS have schools who sink more money into a money losing but competitive program than schools who commit bottom dollar just so that they can say they have a varsity football team.

[OL FU]

Just because there aren't minimums in place right now doesn't mean that there shouldn't be or that there shouldn't have been any.


.

Thus sayeth the Mplsbisonxlolx xrolleyesx

[Model Citizen]

FCS wasn't set up to for teams that wanted 63 scholarships.

As someone who was following college football 30 years ago, I'll say that I-AA was created to exclude small money programs from TV and bowl revenue.

The NCAA segregated schools on the basis of attendance. There was no opportunity to buy your way into I-A with more athletic scholarships, whether you wanted to or not.

[wideright82]

Maybe your school (I'm assuming NDSU) should drop football if they don't want to support it at the FBS levelxnonox


That is an utterly terrible argument, I don't agree with the notion that the PFL should drop football without scholarships (vaguely remember another thread devoted to it, funny how it managed to come up again, thanks mpls), but yours is like saying DIII should drop becuase they are not in the league above. If NDSU were playing FBS maybe that would make sense, but his beef is with the vague "guidelines" set up in FCS, and that there is no real reason they shouldn't be more strict (like fbs).

[USDFAN_55]

That is an utterly terrible argument, I don't agree with the notion that the PFL should drop football without scholarships (vaguely remember another thread devoted to it, funny how it managed to come up again, thanks mpls), but yours is like saying DIII should drop becuase they are not in the league above. If NDSU were playing FBS maybe that would make sense, but his beef is with the vague "guidelines" set up in FCS, and that there is no real reason they shouldn't be more strict (like fbs).

My argument is something the FBS people say about the FCS teams all the time (Just a little role reversal). Maybe it's the trickle down effect... FBS picks on scholarship FCS, scholarship FCS picks on non-scholarship FCS, and so on. The guidelines are not as strict for FCS because if they were there would be a lot more schools dropping footballxeekx (I'm sure there are quite a few FCS teams that are not using, and possibly can't afford the full 63 scholarships). The FCS is comprised mostly of schools that didn't want to, or couldn't afford the 85 scholarships for FBS. If there wasn't FCS football, how many schools do you think would drop football? Sadly, way too many in my opinion. The notion that there should even be scholarship minimums is absurd, and goes against everything FCS football stands for.

Also, as previously mentioned, why isn't the Ivy included in this gripe? PFL offers the same aid as the Ivy Leaguers. No one seems to have a problem with them.

[wideright82]

My argument is something the FBS people say about the FCS teams all the time (Just a little role reversal). Maybe it's the trickle down effect... FBS picks on scholarship FCS, scholarship FCS picks on non-scholarship FCS, and so on. The guidelines are not as strict for FCS because if they were there would be a lot more schools dropping footballxeekx (I'm sure there are quite a few FCS teams that are not using, and possibly can't afford the full 63 scholarships). The FCS is comprised mostly of schools that didn't want to, or couldn't afford the 85 scholarships for FBS. If there wasn't FCS football, how many schools do you think would drop football? Sadly, way too many in my opinion. The notion that there should even be scholarship minimums is absurd, and goes against everything FCS football stands for.

Also, as previously mentioned, why isn't the Ivy included in this gripe? PFL offers the same aid as the Ivy Leaguers. No one seems to have a problem with them.


Hey i am on your side in the grand scheme of it all. I know it doesn't bother me playing Penn each year, and I wouldn't mind throwing a PFL team on the schedule either. xthumbsupx xpeacex