Should the process change?

[SuperJon]

Let me first off preface this entire thread by saying this is in no way, shape, or form about Liberty not getting a bid and me trying to say they should have. The point of this thread is from a purely operational point of view.


Rocco expressed disappointment in how the NCAA handled the process. Two nights after the rest of the student body went home for Thanksgiving break, the football team gathered to watch the selection show, which was pushed from its normal mid-afternoon slot to the early evening.

Had he known his team was done, he would have sent the group home after Saturday’s game.

“To think that this is the way it has to be done, that’s not right,” Rocco said. “There have to be lines of communication. … It’s not a good way to do business. All I ever want is information. Let me have accurate, honest information. And there was no information.”

All day yesterday, Coach Rocco told our team he knew nothing and was honest about it.

The team came in on a day they normally wouldn't be there so that they could watch film of the game the day before in anticipation of the playoffs. The idea was if we get in, we wanted Elon to be behind us so we could focus on the playoff team.

Because school ended on Friday and yesterday was technically required as a break, we were required to give all of our players who lived off campus a stipend to pay for food since we required them to stay the extra day. Of the 105 players on the team, roughly 60-65 of them were off campus. This many players multiplied by $30 is about $1800. In a tight economy, and a budget that is already pushed to it's absolute edges, we had to pay $1800 that we didn't expect to pay so that we could sit around all day and wait to hear if we made it in or not.

Lastly, once we found out we didn't get in, a lot of the players decided to leave for Thanksgiving break. This meant going home, packing, and then leaving around 9pm. When you figure that a lot of the guys live multiple hours away, added with the frustration of being "snubbed" and the night time conditions, these are the best driving conditions in the world.

So, because of this, I pose the following questions:

Should we change how teams are informed?

Should the selection show be required to be in the afternoon instead of at night?

Should the NCAA pay the stipend for schools who dismiss on Friday for Thanksgiving break?

Should the NCAA tell a school if they have a legitimate chance going into that weekend's game so that, if they win, they know whether or not to keep their players there after the game?

Is all of this just no big deal and none of it matters?

These are things that the average fan doesn't think about. Quite frankly, I had never thought about it until last night after the show went down the way it did. It's an interesting topic that has nothing to do with who got in and who didn't.

[appfan2008]

I believe liberty should have been in, in front of maine... but that is just one guys vote...

[danefan]

Do you have some proposal to fix the process?

I don't think its great to have the kids sitting around, but how could they do it any better?


And why do you think that Liberty didn't have a legitimate shot? The committee spent 3 hours on the last spot deciding between Liberty, Jax State, W&M and Maine. That seems like a legitimate shot to me.

[Tim James]

I'm a CAA fan and even I wanted Liberty in over Maine. I dont like how you can get 5 teams in from one conference when theres only 16 teams. That doesnt seem right. There should be a cap on 4 teams per conference under the 16 team format.

[SuperJon]

Guys, this isn't about Liberty. I said that from the beginning. That part doesn't matter. This is a "How should they release the information" type of thing.

As for my solution: I think the selection show should be no later than 3pm.

[whitey]

I dont like how you can get 5 teams in from one conference when theres only 16 teams. That doesnt seem right.

If 5 of the top 16 teams are from the same conference it seems right to me. If 6 of the top 16 teams are from the same conference then by all means send all 6 to the playoffs.


There should be a cap on 4 teams per conference under the 16 team format.

No there shouldn't be.

What I would like to see though is a slight alteration to the rule where conference foes can't face each other in the first round. I would like to see that rule changed slightly where if a conference sends more than 4 teams to the playoffs then it would be allowable for one first round matchup to have two teams from the same conference play each other. The way it works right now this rule might be tying up the committee's hands some when it comes to geography and first round matchups.

[whitey]

SuperJon,

I agree with you. I think the selection show should be much earlier than 7pm.

[FCS Go!]

Most schools would love to be in the position where they had a chance to be in the playoffs. Disappointment is a part of sports and life. I'd rather the committee make an informed decision than rush through so that a few students can get home early for their fall break.

[SuperJon]

Most schools would love to be in the position where they had a chance to be in the playoffs. Disappointment is a part of sports and life. I'd rather the committee make an informed decision than rush through so that a few students can get home early for their fall break.

Ok, but what about the costs for those programs for the kids to stay?

[whitey]

Who says it has to be a rushed decision. Why time do they start deliberating? How bout these guys just get up a few hours earlier?

[slycat]

I agree that the selection show is held too late in the day.

[Rob Iola]

Ok, but what about the costs for those programs for the kids to stay?
Then don't have the kids stay - that simple.

The committee rendered its final decision less than 24 hours after the last games were played - that's pretty quick turn-around. Liberty knew they were on the bubble with that loss to Presbyterian (and the home loss to Lafayette too) - so why not celebrate the Elon win for what it was and keep hopes/expectations at a reasonable level?

[Old Gold and Black]

I am not certain the committee really makes informed decisions. How hard is it to pick eight at large teams and seed 4 teams? By the look at some threads this weekend there were a bunch of posters who did as good a job as the committee did and they probably didn't spend near the time or resources. It seems to me all the committee does is look at the bids to host find the top eight and then applies the 400 mile regionalization rule and the no first round intra-conference battle. Anyone can do this with google maps and a spread-sheet. If they really want to spend the big bucks they can go to the local high school computer club and pay $50 for one of them to program a database to do this for them. The only real decision they made this year was for the last at large bid.

It is a joke that it takes all that time for them to release the bracket. I feel for the Liberty kids, just like I felt like Wofford got the shaft in 02, but at least they found out in the middle of the day. The delay is purely for TV. It used to be shown @ 12:00 on Sunday morning on ESPN News. What has changed from a couple of years ago. The really sad thing is that we all had to wait unnecessarily, just so ESPNU could put together a lame, uninformed selection show.

[SuperJon]

My biggest problem was that it was so late in the day. If it's held at noon, it costs the school no extra money if we don't make it because we don't have to give out the stipend. If we do make it, it gives us time to go ahead and start preparation.

Do you guys realize what it was going to take for the coaches of playoff teams last night to prepare for the game? They're already a day or two behind from the get go, but the video exchange process will take a couple hours at best before the coaches can even begin to prepare a game plan. At least if the show is at noon, coaches have the rest of the day to get things ready for the weekend.

[danefan]

Here's a question:

When did the committee finish the selections versus when ESPN decided to broadcast them is an interesting issue.

I would imagine that the committee could have the bracket down by noon. I would bet it was ESPN that pushed for a prime-time release.

[Proud Griz Man]

My biggest problem was that it was so late in the day. If it's held at noon, it costs the school no extra money if we don't make it because we don't have to give out the stipend. If we do make it, it gives us time to go ahead and start preparation.

Do you guys realize what it was going to take for the coaches of playoff teams last night to prepare for the game? They're already a day or two behind from the get go, but the video exchange process will take a couple hours at best before the coaches can even begin to prepare a game plan. At least if the show is at noon, coaches have the rest of the day to get things ready for the weekend.

Your coaches can exchange film with other 8-win, 9-win, 10-win teams prior to Sunday, and there is no good reason to wait. Are you quibbling about 5-6 hours? xcoolx

[SuperJon]

You really think a team is just going to hand over four game films just on the off chance you might play them? That's absolutely ridiculous. No coach is giving you film on his team unless he has to.

[charliej]

I am not certain the committee really makes informed decisions. How hard is it to pick eight at large teams and seed 4 teams? By the look at some threads this weekend there were a bunch of posters who did as good a job as the committee did and they probably didn't spend near the time or resources. It seems to me all the committee does is look at the bids to host find the top eight and then applies the 400 mile regionalization rule and the no first round intra-conference battle. Anyone can do this with google maps and a spread-sheet. If they really want to spend the big bucks they can go to the local high school computer club and pay $50 for one of them to program a database to do this for them. The only real decision they made this year was for the last at large bid.

It is a joke that it takes all that time for them to release the bracket. I feel for the Liberty kids, just like I felt like Wofford got the shaft in 02, but at least they found out in the middle of the day. The delay is purely for TV. It used to be shown @ 12:00 on Sunday morning on ESPN News. What has changed from a couple of years ago. The really sad thing is that we all had to wait unnecessarily, just so ESPNU could put together a lame, uninformed selection show.

Well said.

[JayJ79]

The brackets have been announced earlier in previous years. The only reason it was pushed back this year is because that is the way ESPN wanted it. And the NCAA will jump through hoops for ESPN.

Which is stupid because: a) they put it on ESPNU, which isn't in all that many households.
b) the only people who are going to watch the selection show are people who are already interested in FCS football
c) They can't even get the names of the schools right, let alone provide any meaningful information about the teams or the matchups.

Announce the pairings in mid-afternoon.



As for the whole costs of keeping athletes for the selection show... no one is forcing them to stay. There is no reason to have a mandatory team meeting for the bracket announcement. And the coaches aren't going to get the tapes, and get them broken down and analyzed before Monday anyway.

[ToTheLeft]

Riding home on a plane with guys from the LU football team, you can tell they were nothing but upset about having to go home. They were ready to hear their name called, had a big team meeting, and then had to scramble and buy plane tickets while fighting off the depression of being let down by the outcome of the selection show.

[KiddBrewer]

if they would start the selection process at 8am and if ESPN would stay the hell out of it, the coaches could be able to tell their kids the deal by mid day.

[walliver]

How many schools get the entire week of Thanksgiving off? I suspect the Liberty situation you describe is an unusual situation.

On the other hand:

1) The committee pretty well knows most of the teams who are getting bids by Saturday evening. There are usually on a few teams actually being discussed as "bubble teams". There is no reason the teams cannot be announced by noon.

2) Most of the suspense involved in the telecast centers around seeding and brackets, not which teams will make the play-offs. Bubble teams which don't make the cut should be notified as soon as a decision is made.

3) The committee should provide a written formal explanation about why they do that voodoo that they do so well.

[Mr. C]

One of the reasons that the selection announcement was pushed back was that the NCAA decided to use the GPI, the TSN poll and the coaches poll as part of the official deliberations for the first time this year. All of those are usually released during the week (Monday afternoon for the polls). The poll voting had to be conducted early and finished in time for the NCAA to receive things by 8 a.m. People were working literally through the night to get all of that information to the committee in time.

This year, the two questions that took up the bulk of the time had to be deciding who the last two seeds would be and who would get the last at-large slot. Those obviously were not easy decisions.

[tingly]

The basketball committee has a large part of their meeting before all games are done and RPI and such is figured up. Football could do the same.

I'd talk to your AD, see if he/she is interested in getting the ball rolling on some sort of change.

[Syntax Error]

Is all of this just no big deal and none of it matters?xnodx
The date and time of the announcement show has been known for weeks. You had a game during "thanksgiving break" so the students had to stay for one day to hear if they made the playoffs or not.

[MountaineerGuy]

I don't mean to be cold to the Liberty kids, cause I think they got the dirty end of several different sticks but...

To be honest, I don't think this is a problem with the way it's released. I do agree that unfortunately the FCS is becoming more and more like other college sports divisions...which are in turn becoming more and more like professional sports...which are in turn not really very much about sports anymore and more about how much money networks can make out of them. And that sucks. It sucks real bad.

But if you're here trying to get sympathy for the Liberty players because they had to scramble to find a plane ticket and they had to stay a couple extra days "for nothing," I'm not buying it. First of all, these people are playing NCAA Division 1 Football. Do you know what I'd give to play NCAA Division 1 Football? Sitting around for a couple of days is the least they will do in a season. I write for our school newspaper, and we go home late to every break, and we come back early for every break. It's called commitment, and it's really not that bad a thing to have.

As people have said, if it's in all honesty and truly the worst thing in the world, then there is every reason that the kids can go home and come back if need be. I personally don't see it as that big of a burden. If your main conern is the stipend you have to pay, then make an amendment through your school to account for this contingent.

I have every assurance that you genuinely don't mean this to be about Liberty not getting in and how it sucks for them, but as much as you try and qualify it, that's exactly what this is about. There's always a few teams that have to deal with not getting in, being inconvenienced by planning for if they do and then finding out they didn't. It happened to be yours this year, and now it's a problem worth talking about.

In short, yeah sports commercialism sucks for true sports fans, but there's a lot worse things going on in the world of athletics than a few kids getting their school payed for being a day late home for a FULL WEEK break for Thanksgiving because they have a commitment to a team.

[Syntax Error]

I feel for the Liberty kids, just like I felt like Wofford got the shaft in 02...Liberty in 2008 was nothing like Wofford in 2002... not even close.

[SuperJon]

I'm not trying to do a "woe is us" thing here. I don't want you to feel sorry for us. I'm just using our situation and equating it on a generic level.

I was a sport management undergrad. I work in college athletics right now. I'm looking at this from a business point of view. I'm not looking from a fan's point of view or a football point of view. This thread is about business and how things are communicated. It's about a program having to pay out nearly $2000 of unbudgeted money because the selection show was so late in the day.

We've hashed things out football wise in every other thread. This was supposed to be something different, trying to get people to think, and trying to get a different discussion going than what has been on here the past couple days.

[MountaineerGuy]

What does the unbudgeted 2k have to do with the selection show? If you'd have made it in would the players have had to stay? Wouldn't you have had to pay the stipends then, and probably for the rest of the week? The money would still be unbudgeted, and I'm almost certain Liberty wouldn't turn down the invite to the playoffs, saying "We don't have it in our budget to pay for our players to stay over Thanksgiving break."

Again, it sucks that decisions like this are made primarily with ESPN and the $$$$ in mind, but at the same time, if you think this is a problem, I think there's also a breakdown on your end.

[RationalGriz]

I think it is the schools responsibility and that Liberty was in an unusual position because I would assume they were/are the only school that does not have class this upcoming week.

[luflame15]

I think that there should be a general idea by some point Friday with bubble teams if theya re in or not.

[RationalGriz]

I think that there should be a general idea by some point Friday with bubble teams if theya re in or not.


This is not possible with games left to be played.

[luflame15]

But if your a bubble team , they should be real with the teams and tell them if they are decent shot to getting in.

[RationalGriz]

And Liberty would have been in the same position as they actually were. It would not have solved anything

[ToTheLeft]

And Liberty would have been in the same position as they actually were. It would not have solved anything

xnodx

If you're on the bubble, you wait and see what happens. That's just a part of the drill. If we hd lost to Elon, everyone could have gone home. If we beat Elon to go to 12-0, you would have work to do Monday Morning getting ready for a playoff game. It just so happened this one time we were on the bubble... and it sucks, but that's how it is. It's the one year that Thanksgiving and us being on the bubble coincide, coincidence and inconvenience, but no real problem here, except for the LU players who got their hopes up just to have to leave the next day. But that's not worth changing the system over, that's just something that could've been fixed by beating Presby.

[luflame15]

Agree but im sure there was other schools in the same boat.

[ToTheLeft]

Not everyone gives the whole week of Thanksgiving off and shuts down everything on campus, forcing them to pay a stipend to the players because they forced them to stay while the school was closed. In fact, I would venture to say we are the only school in that situation.

[luflame15]

You should actually research your information. Because there was two other schools.

[ToTheLeft]

Two other schools out of the 5 that were on the bubble that shut down their entire school for Thanksgiving week and, as a result, are forced to pay a stipend to their players because they are forcing them to stay while the facilities of the school are closed? Really? How did you find this out?

[ToTheLeft]

Because neither Maine nor William and Mary nor Jacksonville State give the whole week off. The breaks for those schools start on Wednesday.

It's okay little buddy. One day you'll be right. I promise.

[luflame15]

I have sources because I work in college athletics. Get a freakin life loser.

[ToTheLeft]

Then who was a bubble team that was in the same situation as LU?

I don't know who you are, but you're making a fool out of yourself and our school. Between FlameFans and here, you have posted "Get a life" or "Freaking loser" in pretty much every post. I have to believe that you are Cameron because that's the way he talks, but I could be wrong. Regardless, you need to shut up and learn that just because you get to walk around on the sidelines acting like a future coach (when really you're just a manager) doesn't mean you know everything about football and can be the cool jock on the board full of nerds and tell us everything we need to know.

You are wrong, and have been wrong on many other occasions. You need to stop making a mockery of the tiny shred of credibility our school has on this board and to all the many people who read, because it only hurts you and those you work with and work for, since you work for the athletic department apparently.

[RationalGriz]

I happen to know that Elon, William & Mary, Jacksonville St, and Maine all have class through at least Tuesday of this week, so I am not sure which teams you could be talking about.

[ToTheLeft]

I happen to know that Elon, William & Mary, Jacksonville St, and Maine all have class through at least Tuesday of this week, so I am not sure which teams you could be talking about.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure his BS has been called on this one.

Sorry about having to call him out, too. He doesn't read PM's so I had to put it somewhere that he could see it.

RationalGriz living up to his name xbowx xbowx

[GGASU]

Liberty has to be the only college/university I have ever heard of, that gets an entire week off for Thanksgiving.

[ToTheLeft]

Liberty has to be the only college/university I have ever heard of, that gets an entire week off for Thanksgiving.

xnodx

But LUflame15's dad is a Senior admin for a big time FCS program, and his dad said that there were other teams in our position, so clearly, despite all these odds stacked against him, Luflame15 is right! Silly us guys, for using common sense and research. None of our dads are Senior Admins for FCS Programs, so we're out of luck when it comes to being right on this topic...

xoopsx

[luflame15]

Whatever,you can think what u want. But i know what i know. U dont represent Liberty well by just saying what u did. So yeah. Have a great night. Have fun guess who I am!!!

[Syntax Error]

please take the liberty fight to PM not on our discussion board, thanks

[CJHawkeyes]

The process should be completely transparent and objective thereby allowing teams to know whether or not they make the playoffs given all possible outcomes BEFORE they occur. My own idea for ranking teams matched 15 of the 16 playoff teams favoring Liberty over Maine. No need for unaccountable selection committees. Teams know where they stand as soon as the last game goes final.

[luflame15]

Sorry guys, i apolgize on my behalf. Just stressed out from yesterday.

[Syntax Error]

The process should be completely transparent and objective thereby allowing teams to know whether or not they make the playoffs given all possible outcomes BEFORE they occur. My own idea for ranking teams matched 15 of the 16 playoff teams favoring Liberty over Maine. No need for unaccountable selection committees. Teams know where they stand as soon as the last game goes final.What wasn't to understand before the last game went final? There were 5-8 crucial games that decided things Saturday. What is the committee going to do. release a scenario booklet? That'll never happen.

The selection show is usually midday and this year was an anamoly.

[Syntax Error]

Sorry guys, i apolgize on my behalf. Just stressed out from yesterday.
Liking Liberty more and more (you were in my prediction). Keep the pressure on to keep improving the team, gameday and facilities. xthumbsupx

[tingly]

Subjective is better for getting the best at-large teams, but not perfect. For the 33 ratings and rankings listed by Massey, 70% had Maine above Liberty, but William and Mary was higher than Maine with 79%.

[ToTheLeft]

Liking Liberty more and more (you were in my prediction). Keep the pressure on to keep improving the team, gameday and facilities. xthumbsupx

Team: I would say the team is improving, this senior class went from 1-10 as froshies to 10-2.

Gameday: This is the one thing we need to work desperately on. If I knew of something we could do, I would suggest it. It just doesn't seem like enough people care about our football team to create a real gameday atmosphere.

Facilities: The FOC and such are pretty solid. The stadium leaves a little to be desired, but I am sure cosmetically they will touch it up whenever they decide to expand, which probably won't be for a while after seeing this years attendance figured.

[Syntax Error]

Coaches, gameday and facilities is what will keep the team talent replenished. Get your student council involved as well as alumni groups planning events. Copying good ideas from other schools works too. xtwocentsx

[Syntax Error]

Subjective is better for getting the best at-large teams, but not perfect. For the 33 ratings and rankings listed by Massey, 70% had Maine above Liberty, but William and Mary was higher than Maine with 79%.Which ranking is the highest at the Massey comparison page?

Okay, I just looked. The GPI has never been anything but the top one of what Massey calls the "dirty laundry list of rankings". Of course it is because Massey helps the GPI by choosing the best ones to include each year. ;)

[CJHawkeyes]

What wasn't to understand before the last game went final? There were 5-8 crucial games that decided things Saturday. What is the committee going to do. release a scenario booklet? That'll never happen.

The selection show is usually midday and this year was an anamoly.

I'm suggesting that there be no selection committee. Using my idea as a reference, every team would know before any game kicked off on Saturday what exactly needed to happen for their team to make the playoffs. Did Liberty know that beating Elon would gain them nothing? That they would lose to out team that most presumed was in a must-win situation too but was picked following a loss?

[coover]

I would bet it was ESPN that pushed for a prime-time release.

ESPN pushed for a "Prime-Time" release, and then released it on a cable channel that nobody has access to ... My cable company carries 4 separate channels from ESPN, but none of them are ESPNU.

If you can't watch the show, what difference does the time make?

[tingly]

If the objective criteria is like RPI, I don't think teams could have known before kickoff. All the losses took a blender to the bottom couple of spots. It's easier to do that in the NFL with fewer teams, much more head-to-head, and regimented schedules.

[CJHawkeyes]

If the objective criteria is like RPI, I don't think teams could have known before kickoff. All the losses took a blender to the bottom couple of spots. It's easier to do that in the NFL with fewer teams, much more head-to-head, and regimented schedules.

Not true. If the criteria is known, all one would have to do is plug all possible outcomes into it to determine which outcomes favored their team. I certainly could have told each team what needed to happen in its favor to make the playoffs under my idea.

[Syntax Error]

I'm suggesting that there be no selection committee. Using my idea as a reference, every team would know before any game kicked off on Saturday what exactly needed to happen for their team to make the playoffs. Did Liberty know that beating Elon would gain them nothing? That they would lose to out team that most presumed was in a must-win situation too but was picked following a loss?Liberty knew that they needed to win convincingly but have many other games fall their way. There is no way using a system that you can predict outcomes perfectly. THAT IS WHY THEY PLAY THE GAMES. Liberty was too far behind to catch up with an Elon win.

[Syntax Error]

If the objective criteria is like RPI, I don't think teams could have known before kickoff. All the losses took a blender to the bottom couple of spots. It's easier to do that in the NFL with fewer teams, much more head-to-head, and regimented schedules.RPI is too much wins and losses based for football.

[tingly]

That was if it's a complicated formula, not that it would be RPI. RPI needs about 20 games to make sense.

Something like RPI would have around 1,000,000,000,000,000 (is that around 2^50?) possible outcomes per week, so it's true that you couldn't say for sure by kickoff. Something like NFL's system wouldn't work because win-loss is the main criteria. You could be pretty sure that a 12-4 team deserves a playoff spot where you can't be with FCS.

Before I got the sport to do RPI, they had a point-based system. They found it impossible to develop a set of criteria that wasn't biased towards good teams in weak conferences or strong teams in strong conferences which is why I said subjective is best, if I said that in this thread. I need bed. zzzzz

[DFW HOYA]

Should it change? Yes.
Will it? Not anytime soon.

[SuperJon]

What does the unbudgeted 2k have to do with the selection show? If you'd have made it in would the players have had to stay? Wouldn't you have had to pay the stipends then, and probably for the rest of the week? The money would still be unbudgeted, and I'm almost certain Liberty wouldn't turn down the invite to the playoffs, saying "We don't have it in our budget to pay for our players to stay over Thanksgiving break."

That's a legit point, but let's look at it like this:

Had Liberty made the playoffs, the exposure would've paid for itself. With as big of a deal as the NCAA is making about the economy, etc you would think they would do what they could to save the schools money, which would mean having the show earlier in the day.


The selection show is usually midday and this year was an anamoly.

Was it an anomaly or the start of a trend? If they're using the GPI, that means it'll be at 7pm from here on out.

[Green26]

The selection show could be moved up, at least to where it was last year, but I don't see much else that could be done. That would save a few hours.

I don't see how preliminary information could be provided to teams. As for the last team in the field, see the thread on how long it took the committee to select the team from a group of 5. I believe there were originally 8 in the group, until it was paired to 5.

The committee started meeting on Sat. evening and then reconvened on Sunday morning. They had many hours of meetings. I don't think the committee should start meeting before the games are over, and the final data is assembled. I assume most of the AD's on the committee flew to Indianapolis on Saturday. An AD departing in the morning from the West would probably not arrive until late afternoon.

[Proud Griz Man]

You really think a team is just going to hand over four game films just on the off chance you might play them? That's absolutely ridiculous. No coach is giving you film on his team unless he has to.

It is done MORE than you think Jon. xreadx xcoffeex

[RationalGriz]

SuperJon, I also wanted to touch on the subject you brought up about game prep and more specifically, game tapes. I know for a fact that in the last few weeks, Montana has exchanged tapes with several schools. The UM staff identified possible playoff matchups and had no problem gathering tape. I will add that they did the same last year, but missed because they did not forsee Wofford as the possible opponent.

[SuperJon]

Ok, let me make sure we're on the same page.

Did Montana exchange tapes directly with the teams they thought they were going to play, or did they call other schools who played those potential opponents to get tape on them?

[Proud Griz Man]

Ok, let me make sure we're on the same page.

Did Montana exchange tapes directly with the teams they thought they were going to play, or did they call other schools who played those potential opponents to get tape on them?

It is different for each school depending on geographic location, conference and win-loss record/ranking. With teams like Texas State in mind, Montana exchanged tapes. Coach Hauck indicated so in the Sunday selection show, and said he was going back to the office Sunday night. Like the other fans said, Montana tried to do the same last year but did not guess Wofford.

[Appguy]

Should we change how teams are informed?
While I think it has been earlier in the day in the past few years it's really not that big a deal, your team isn't held at gunpoint to have a viewing party.

Should the selection show be required to be in the afternoon instead of at night?
not if it means it not being on tv. FCS gets put around the schedules of other sports/everything

Should the NCAA pay the stipend for schools who dismiss on Friday for Thanksgiving break?
NCAA doesn't pay stipends for much so I would say good luck, is a week off for thanksgiving common?

Should the NCAA tell a school if they have a legitimate chance going into that weekend's game so that, if they win, they know whether or not to keep their players there after the game?
There's just too many factors, there isn't any one person to make the decision, and getting the big wigs together to make that decision another weekend could be just as hard(in their eyes anyway) as your team.

Is all of this just no big deal and none of it matters?
a lot over spilled milk, you'll forget about the milk when its your turn and make the playoffs(when you beat presby)

[IaaScribe]

According to the Chattanooga newspaper article, there were five teams in contention -- Maine, W&M, Jax State, Elon, Liberty. They met for two hours Saturday night and then three more hours Sunday on these five. My guess (pure speculation on my part) is that Liberty and Elon were off the board by the time they went to bed Saturday night.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for someone on the board (*cough cough* Moose) to tip off Liberty's AD and say, 'look, between you and me, you're out of the discussion.' If that happens, Rocco tells his team, they all go home, they don't gather in the team room only to get crushed when their name isn't revealed.

[CJHawkeyes]

Liberty knew that they needed to win convincingly but have many other games fall their way. There is no way using a system that you can predict outcomes perfectly. THAT IS WHY THEY PLAY THE GAMES. Liberty was too far behind to catch up with an Elon win.

I'm not explaining myself very well apparently because I'm not discussing predicting games. My point is that objective rules allow teams to know precisely which games must go there way in the final weekend before the start of the day. All possible scenarios are known before they occur. This is no different than in the NFL where playoff scenarios are listed in the paper and discussed on the pregame shows. For example, based on my idea, Liberty would have known for certain that a win versus Elon plus a loss by one other team would have gained them a playoff berth. With a selection committee, Liberty could presume that they needed to beat Elon to remain in the conversation, but they could not know what else needed to happen or if anything else would make a difference. They would know whether or not they are in or not the instant certain games went final. No need to wait around for a day to find out that they were voted out.

[gator9]

[QUOTE=whitey;1224974]If 5 of the top 16 teams are from the same conference it seems right to me. If 6 of the top 16 teams are from the same conference then by all means send all 6 to the playoffs.

So u mean to tell me that there are six teams in any given FCS conference better than a 10-2 conference champion Liberty? Maine was 8-4 with no victories better than LU's against Elon. All four of there losses came to teams that they will potentially face in the playoffs. Why do they deserve a second crack at all those teams while Liberty gets sent home? Bottom line Maine had a fair chance to go to the playoffs, win you conference and your in, Liberty doesnt have that oppurtunity they can only make it in via an At-large bid. So how can the commitee justify giving that bad to not one, but 4 teams who had there fair chance to get in via a confernece championship, but came up short? Wonder if it has anything to do with our commitee chairman wearing two hats? (also the AD at CAA school Umass)

[CJHawkeyes]

That was if it's a complicated formula, not that it would be RPI. RPI needs about 20 games to make sense.

Something like RPI would have around 1,000,000,000,000,000 (is that around 2^50?) possible outcomes per week, so it's true that you couldn't say for sure by kickoff. Something like NFL's system wouldn't work because win-loss is the main criteria. You could be pretty sure that a 12-4 team deserves a playoff spot where you can't be with FCS.

Before I got the sport to do RPI, they had a point-based system. They found it impossible to develop a set of criteria that wasn't biased towards good teams in weak conferences or strong teams in strong conferences which is why I said subjective is best, if I said that in this thread. I need bed. zzzzz


My guess is that they found it impossible to develop a point system whose results did not match their biases in every instance. That said, my own idea only needs wins and losses and opponents' wins and losses to separate any pair teams better than 99% of the time. Based on this year's results, my idea matched 15 of 16 playoff teams preferring Liberty over Maine. If the media poll had selected the 16 teams, it would have matched all 16. Too many people are stuck on the idea that the rankings should reflect best to worst team and are quick to dismiss any idea whose results do not match their opinion. It should not be that difficult for people to agree to rules that tell us what beats what in all instances.

[UNHFan]

Yes please add these rule changes

Rule 1-A/32447894 Any team who loses there last to games should have a chance at a national championship

Rule 1-B/ru2rreri4848 Any team who choses to put D2 or D3 teams on schedule Should have those wins counted the same as D1 teams


Rule 1-C/575984509 We should bail out all people who need it

Rule 1-d/2483457 Know one needs to work anymore!

Rule 1-E/43874957509 All games should be ties!

[Appguy]

This is no different than in the NFL where playoff scenarios are listed in the paper and discussed on the pregame shows. For example, based on my idea, Liberty would have known for certain that a win versus Elon plus a loss by one other team would have gained them a playoff berth.

This just can't work since there the different conferences in college have a clear difference in talent level to a degree the NFC EAST teams with a better record than a NFC SOUTH team will always make the playoffs over them. If we did this no teams would ever want to challenge themselves in their regular seasons. Unless Liberty either moves conferences or schedules a few better OOCs than western carolina, north greenville and glenville state or have beaten a mediocre presby they would be sitting fine in the playoffs.

I will give them that the Youngstown game looked more challenging before the season started though.

[WestCoastAggie]

There should be a Cap on the number of teams from the division as well as a reward for teams that win conferences that do not have auto-bids. (At least give a conference champ. more weight in the equation and remove strength of schedule from it as well!)

No one can justify that Maine is more worthy than Liberty in getting a spot in the Playoffs. Maine was the 5th or 6th best in their conference. Who cares how "strong their schedule" was; if they couldn't win more than 9-10 games and be the top 3 or 4 in the CAA, they don't deserve a chance to be the champion.

[WestCoastAggie]

Strength of schedule is a matter of Opinion!!!

[UNH Fanboi]

I'm not explaining myself very well apparently because I'm not discussing predicting games. My point is that objective rules allow teams to know precisely which games must go there way in the final weekend before the start of the day. All possible scenarios are known before they occur. This is no different than in the NFL where playoff scenarios are listed in the paper and discussed on the pregame shows. For example, based on my idea, Liberty would have known for certain that a win versus Elon plus a loss by one other team would have gained them a playoff berth. With a selection committee, Liberty could presume that they needed to beat Elon to remain in the conversation, but they could not know what else needed to happen or if anything else would make a difference. They would know whether or not they are in or not the instant certain games went final. No need to wait around for a day to find out that they were voted out.


In the NFL there are only 32 teams and there is decent parity among the different divisions, so it is relatively fair to guarantee spots to the winner of each division and then give out the remaining spots purely based on wins and losses. There are 125 FCS teams, and tremendous disparity in talent among the different conferences. It would not be possible to come up with predetermined playoff qualification rules (unless the maybe the playoffs are expanded to 32 teams) and still ensure that the best teams are in the playoffs.

People just need to deal with the fact that every year a couple of teams are going to feel gypped. And let's face it, W&M, Liberty, Elon, etc. probably had very little chance of winning it all anyway, and all had their chances during the season to better control their own destinies. You're never going to be able to make anyone happy, and all in all I think the current system works pretty well.

[RationalGriz]

Strength of schedule is a matter of Opinion!!!

But the failure of the MEAC to win playoff games, and games versus the Socon and CAA are not. If the MEAC would win a few they would get more respect.

[UNH Fanboi]

The: "Liberty won their conference and went 10-2, whereas Maine didn't win their conference and went 8-4" argument is overly simplistic. Is Liberty a better team than the Detroit Lions because the Lions are 0-11 and their strength of schedule is "subjective"?

Please, I'll give it to you that Liberty, W&M and Maine were all pretty close. I personally would have given the last spot to W&M. But the people who are making a huge deal about their team being snubbed are just being babies. It was a close call that didn't go your way. Get over it and don't lose to a 4-7 team next year.

[Syntax Error]

If they're using the GPI, that means it'll be at 7pm from here on out.The two polls and the mod GPI was in their hands at 8 a.m. Sunday. That's when they normally meet so this year was no different than others. TV scheduled the show later than normal.
So u mean to tell me that there are six teams in any given FCS conference better than a 10-2 conference champion Liberty?Three polls and two GPIs say yes this year.

[tingly]

My guess is that they found it impossible to develop a point system whose results did not match their biases in every instance. That said, my own idea only needs wins and losses and opponents' wins and losses to separate any pair teams better than 99% of the time. Based on this year's results, my idea matched 15 of 16 playoff teams preferring Liberty over Maine. If the media poll had selected the 16 teams, it would have matched all 16. Too many people are stuck on the idea that the rankings should reflect best to worst team and are quick to dismiss any idea whose results do not match their opinion. It should not be that difficult for people to agree to rules that tell us what beats what in all instances.

The bias thing still comes up and I have to remind them that no system is perfect and it's not that big of a deal if a team is off by a spot. The point systems were worse than that. At one point, a bad team could play a tough nonconference schedule, get trounced on a weekly basis and make it in. It was based on wins and losses, sites and conference finish, no margins of victory or anything. It also swung the other way at other times where say in FCS, a #40 FCS team could go undefeated by bottom feeding and be a top seed due to their undefeated record.

I like the idea of an objective system, but even for picking who the at-larges are at the Division I level of athletics, it has to be accurate which is tough to do in every objective situation. (not that subjective is perfect, either)

[CJHawkeyes]

In the NFL there are only 32 teams and there is decent parity among the different divisions, so it is relatively fair to guarantee spots to the winner of each division and then give out the remaining spots purely based on wins and losses. There are 125 FCS teams, and tremendous disparity in talent among the different conferences. It would not be possible to come up with predetermined playoff qualification rules (unless the maybe the playoffs are expanded to 32 teams) and still ensure that the best teams are in the playoffs.

People just need to deal with the fact that every year a couple of teams are going to feel gypped. And let's face it, W&M, Liberty, Elon, etc. probably had very little chance of winning it all anyway, and all had their chances during the season to better control their own destinies. You're never going to be able to make anyone happy, and all in all I think the current system works pretty well.


For starters, my idea does not simply rank teams best to worst record. That said, how is it impossible to come up with predetermined qualification rules? My idea matched 15 of 16 playoff teams this year. It favored Liberty over Maine which does not appear to be an outlandish result. Based on 30 years of FBS results, it averages matching 14 of the top 16 AP teams. The FBS champion under this idea has won or shared the MNC 26 of 30 years, 23 of 24, and 18 straight. What do people imagine is the worst thing that can happen using an idea like mine?

[CJHawkeyes]

This just can't work since there the different conferences in college have a clear difference in talent level to a degree the NFC EAST teams with a better record than a NFC SOUTH team will always make the playoffs over them. If we did this no teams would ever want to challenge themselves in their regular seasons. Unless Liberty either moves conferences or schedules a few better OOCs than western carolina, north greenville and glenville state or have beaten a mediocre presby they would be sitting fine in the playoffs.

I will give them that the Youngstown game looked more challenging before the season started though.

I'm not suggesting teams be ranked solely based on their records. Based on my idea, teams have two objectives: Schedule winners and win. Teams that play better schedules would have a greator margin of error for making the playoffs. Teams like Liberty barely make it in even with a record equal to or better than most everyone else in the playoff field.

[tingly]

What do people imagine is the worst thing that can happen using an idea like mine?

Riots in Maine!!! heh. I wonder how many systems picked all 8 at-larges this year. I'd look, but I have to leave in a few minutes.

[gator9]

[QUOTE=UNH Fanboi;1228474]The: "Liberty won their conference and went 10-2, whereas Maine didn't win their conference and went 8-4" argument is overly simplistic. Is Liberty a better team than the Detroit Lions because the Lions are 0-11 and their strength of schedule is "subjective"?

ya you would say that UNH (another CAA team) i'm sure u'd much rather have maine in there since you've already beaten them. wouldn't wanna make the playoffs to challenging by making you play new teams now would we. Its not even an argument of who the better team is, its the argument that Maine already had their chance against 1/4 of the teams in the playoffs and lost to every single one of them...why are they so much more deserving of a second chance than Liberty is of their first shot at those teams? but i wouldnt expect you to want a system so obviously slanted in your conferences favor to ever change...

[jmufan999]

Guys, this isn't about Liberty. I said that from the beginning. That part doesn't matter. This is a "How should they release the information" type of thing.

As for my solution: I think the selection show should be no later than 3pm.

i KNEW people weren't going to read your post. haha, you went out of your way to say it wasn't about whether liberty should have gotten in, and immediately that's what people turn it into.

anyway, i thought it was a great post. i do think there is a lot that needs to change with the selection committee. first one for me is that they need to seed teams 1-16 if they want to make it fair. all this bidding and stuff... it's crap. it's shady, very shady.

i'll just address one of your questions... no, i don't think the NCAA should have to tell any team whether they have a shot to make it or not. news would leak out (from AD to coach, to players, to their friends, to message boards like these) quicker than you would believe. it would kill the suspense. definitely an unfortunate circumstance for Liberty.

[Syntax Error]

It favored Liberty over Maine which does not appear to be an outlandish result.... What do people imagine is the worst thing that can happen using an idea like mine?Ever heard of the GPI?

Outlandish to have your system with Liberty over Maine and W&M? Well, 3 polls and 2 GPIs do not favor Liberty. In fact the GPI has 7 CAA teams ranked higher than Liberty. So yeah, outlandish.

[gator9]

p.s. not only did maine just "not win their conference" they came in 5th...

[Syntax Error]

p.s. not only did maine just "not win their conference" they came in 5th...ps. Not smack but Liberty would probably finish eighth. Welcome to the FCS national board!

[CJHawkeyes]

The bias thing still comes up and I have to remind them that no system is perfect and it's not that big of a deal if a team is off by a spot. A small bias in the system is balanced by other small biases, that kinda thing. The point systems were worse than that. At one point, a bad team could play a tough nonconference schedule, get trounced on a weekly basis and make it in. It was based on wins and losses, sites and conference finish, no margins of victory or anything. It also swung the other way at other times where say in FCS, a #40 FCS team could go undefeated by bottom feeding and be a top seed due to their undefeated record.

Well, I certainly don't think any objective idea will do. I just don't understand the complete aversion some have to the concept altogether going so far as to suggest that none exists. Perhaps none exists that will validate their opinions in every instance. However, I have a different view than most it appears. To me, the college football season is a game too. Based on my idea for this "game", the objective is to schedule winners and win. The teams that accumulate the most points qualify for the playoffs without any regard to anything anyone may think of them. Based on this year's results, South Carolina State as three seed under my idea appears to be the only result that differs greatly from what people think of them. But they wouldn't be the three seed because they are the third best team. And if it turns out that South Carolina State is seeded higher than their ability, the playoff would likely bear that out.

[UNH Fanboi]

Its not even an argument of who the better team is, its the argument that Maine already had their chance against 1/4 of the teams in the playoffs and lost to every single one of them...why are they so much more deserving of a second chance than Liberty is of their first shot at those teams? but i wouldnt expect you to want a system so obviously slanted in your conferences favor to ever change...

Well, the Detroit Lions already had their chance against 11 NFL teams and lost, does that mean that Liberty should replace them on Thanksgiving?

There is a very good chance that Liberty would have lost to the same teams that Maine lost to, as evidenced by their losses against Presbyterian and Lafayette. Again, I think it was a very close call and I don't think that a huge injustice was perpetrated against Liberty. I would honestly be saying the same thing to Maine and W&M fans if Liberty had gotten in over them.

[ToTheLeft]

I wish our team scheduled more CAA teams so people could stop with the ignorant stupid crap like "Towson would take 9 of 10 from LU" or "LU would finish 3-9 in the CAA" or "Monmouth would go 8-4 on LU's schedule"...

I mean, Coastal's smackdown on Towson clearly didn't help us enough. And next year if we get killed by a good JMU team we'll be set back about 5 years since no one will be able to resist reminding us how we don't belong in the same discussion of CAA teams...

[IaaScribe]

ps. Not smack but Liberty would probably finish eighth. Welcome to the FCS national board!

This year's Liberty team would have probably finished 8-4 with Maine's schedule, just like Maine did. Maybe the Flames don't win at UMass. Maybe they beat UNH at home.

No way Liberty loses to Northeastern, Towson, Rhode Island, Hofstra, Delaware.

Games against W&M, UMass, Maine would be toss-ups.

Liberty would be underdogs against JMU, Villanova, Richmond, UNH.

[WestCoastAggie]

The committee uses THREE OPINION POLLS and the GPI, right? So this means that there is still BIAS AND PREJUDICE IN THE WAY THE TEAMS ARE PICKED.

I am sorry or whatever but I am only calling it how I see it. There is no way to justify that Liberty is not in this field. They got the magic number of wins AND won the BIG SOUTH.

To me, this needs to COMPLETELY OBJECTIVE and if a team like Liberty or SCSU or FAMU or PVA&M or JAX St or San Diego or whomever gets blown out, they get blown out. BUT, they got their chance!

The Polls should be only used when it comes to the seeding of the teams. Regardless if you guys think that teams will just "pad their schedule" with "inferior" teams, remember that a rule can be in place that:
TEAMS HAVE TO WIN 8-9 PLUS GAMES IN ORDER TO BE ELIGIBLE
GAMES THAT ARE WITH DII OR DIII WILL NOT COUNT TOWARDS THE NUMBER OF GAMES NEEDED TO BECOME ELIGIBLE.

The system needs to be tweaked in order to give ALL CONFERENCES, who choose TO COMPETE in the Playoffs to actually have a chance to compete on the field.

And do not come at me with that BS THAT THE MEAC PLAYS A WEAK SCHEDULE OR WHATNOT. Alot of the games that we schedule are deeply rooted in tradition and make these schools money that they need for their Athletic Program to stay afloat. Most schools in the FCS, for example, take money games in the FBS and have certain teams they may schedule in DII that will sell out because of the rivalry and tradition.

[Syntax Error]

... no one will be able to resist reminding us how we don't belong in the same discussion of CAA teams...The CAA is not this supergreat every year but they are a premier FCS conference and a big one with nearly 10% of all FCS teams and more than 10% of playoff eligible teams.

[Syntax Error]

The committee uses THREE OPINION POLLS and the GPI, right? So this means that there is still BIAS AND PREJUDICE IN THE WAY THE TEAMS ARE PICKED...two polls and a modified GPI is the official side stuff but the committee and their cadre of regional advisors are the main part. They look at everything, go to games, talk with everyone, read AGS and the local messageboards... I can't imagine supporting taking the committee out of the process.

[ToTheLeft]

This year's Liberty team would have probably finished 8-4 with Maine's schedule, just like Maine did. Maybe the Flames don't win at UMass. Maybe they beat UNH at home.

No way Liberty loses to Northeastern, Towson, Rhode Island, Hofstra, Delaware.

Games against W&M, UMass, Maine would be toss-ups.

Liberty would be underdogs against JMU, Villanova, Richmond, UNH.

xnodx xnodx

[danefan]

This year's Liberty team would have probably finished 8-4 with Maine's schedule, just like Maine did. Maybe the Flames don't win at UMass. Maybe they beat UNH at home.

No way Liberty loses to Northeastern, Towson, Rhode Island, Hofstra, Delaware.

Games against W&M, UMass, Maine would be toss-ups.

Liberty would be underdogs against JMU, Villanova, Richmond, UNH.

You cannot say that no way Liberty loses to Northeastern, Towson, URI, Hofstra and Delaware.

LIBERTY LOST TO PRESBY! PRESBY!

You cannot say they wouldn't lose to strong CAA teams. That's ignoring the reality of Liberty's season.

[ToTheLeft]

You cannot say that no way Liberty loses to Northeastern, Towson, URI, Hofstra and Delaware.

LIBERTY LOST TO PRESBY! PRESBY!

You cannot say they wouldn't lose to strong CAA teams. That's ignoring the reality of Liberty's season.

Liberty was a better team than 11 of the 12 they played.

We had a mental lapse at home against Laffy and on the road against Presby.

And Towson is not a strong CAA team. They got owned by Coastal, who we beat on the road (and the margin of victory should have been 12, not 5, Rashad took a knee at the one at the end of the game instead of scoring. Coastal never had a chance to win that game.)

[gator9]

Well, the Detroit Lions already had their chance against 11 NFL teams and lost, does that mean that Liberty should replace them on Thanksgiving?

There is a very good chance that Liberty would have lost to the same teams that Maine lost to, as evidenced by their losses against Presbyterian and Lafayette. Again, I think it was a very close call and I don't think that a huge injustice was perpetrated against Liberty. I would honestly be saying the same thing to Maine and W&M fans if Liberty had gotten in over them.

ok first of all stop bringing up the detroit lions...idk if ur a struggling detroit fan or something but that is the stupidest argument ever...they play in the NFL liberty doesnt...however against competition in the same level, division I FCS football, liberty had a better record than maine...and "a very good chance" isnt enough for me and other LU fans. if you think we would lose, thats fine, put us in and let us lose. But maine had their chance (4 chances actually) and lost all 4 and if u wanna say we lost to games too thats fine ,so do we needed to go undefeated to get in the playoffs as a non CAA team? thats ridiciulous. We might as well just change to the BCS where if your not from the SEC, BIG12, BIG10, ACC, or Big East its impossible to win a title. The CAA needs to pull they're heads outta they're butts and realize they're conference isnt that dominant. If i remember correctly App State the 3-time natl. champion, is a member of the SoCon, not the CAA but congrats on having one real contender this year in JMU...maybe they can restore the sacred CAA to power...

[IaaScribe]

Dane, I watched enough CAA football to stick by what I wrote. Liberty also beats Presbyterian nine out of 10 times. But Liberty didn't show up and Presbyterian played its best game of the season. There's your one time.

I honestly think that Liberty, this year, would have been middle of the pack in the CAA, which puts them right on par with Maine, W&M and UMass.

[UNH Fanboi]

ok first of all stop bringing up the detroit lions...idk if ur a struggling detroit fan or something but that is the stupidest argument ever...they play in the NFL liberty doesnt...however against competition in the same level, division I FCS football, liberty had a better record than maine...and "a very good chance" isnt enough for me and other LU fans. if you think we would lose, thats fine, put us in and let us lose. But maine had their chance (4 chances actually) and lost all 4 and if u wanna say we lost to games too thats fine ,so do we needed to go undefeated to get in the playoffs as a non CAA team? thats ridiciulous. We might as well just change to the BCS where if your not from the SEC, BIG12, BIG10, ACC, or Big East its impossible to win a title. The CAA needs to pull they're heads outta they're butts and realize they're conference isnt that dominant. If i remember correctly App State the 3-time natl. champion, is a member of the SoCon, not the CAA but congrats on having one real contender this year in JMU...maybe they can restore the sacred CAA to power...

The point is that strength of schedule matters, no matter how much you try to boil everything down to 10-2 > 8-4.

Anyway, the CAA proved that they were worthy of the 5 playoff spots that they got last year. They went 3-2 in the first round, and JMU lost to App. St. by one point and UNH (the 5th CAA team) lost to UNI (the #1 seed) by 3 points on a last second touchdown. Compare that to Delaware St. who was first place in a less prestigious conference and got blown out by Delaware.

Again, I'm not trying to say that Liberty was unworthy a playoff spot, but rather that the CAA has shown that they can send 5 teams to the playoffs and have all of them be competitive. Maybe Liberty was more worthy then Maine, but it is certainly not clear cut, and getting all up in arms about 5 teams from the CAA is unjustified.

[Syntax Error]

... The CAA needs to pull they're heads outta they're butts and realize they're conference isnt that dominant. If i remember correctly App State the 3-time natl. champion, is a member of the SoCon, not the CAA but congrats on having one real contender this year in JMU...maybe they can restore the sacred CAA to power...I guess Delaware (champ game 2007), UMass (champ game 2006), JMU (FCS champ 2004), Delaware (FCS champ 2003), 5 playoff teams (2007, 2008), and seven teams ahead of Liberty (2008) means that the CAA isn't that dominant? C'mon. App is the dominant team and the CAA is the dominant league now. xrulesx

[gator9]

[QUOTE=UNH Fanboi;1229046]The point is that strength of schedule matters, no matter how much you try to boil everything down to 10-2 > 8-4.

ya it does if you win some games...the four games that made Maine schedule any tougher than LU's they lost... if LU schedules the top 12 teams from the FBS level next year and loses every game, no doubt their strength of schedule would be better than maines...so should they go to the playoffs at 0-12 but with the toughest schedule? obviously not...so unless u beat some of the strong teams on your schedule...strength of schedule doesnt matter

[SuperJon]

According to the Chattanooga newspaper article, there were five teams in contention -- Maine, W&M, Jax State, Elon, Liberty. They met for two hours Saturday night and then three more hours Sunday on these five. My guess (pure speculation on my part) is that Liberty and Elon were off the board by the time they went to bed Saturday night.

It doesn't seem unreasonable for someone on the board (*cough cough* Moose) to tip off Liberty's AD and say, 'look, between you and me, you're out of the discussion.' If that happens, Rocco tells his team, they all go home, they don't gather in the team room only to get crushed when their name isn't revealed.

I'm quoting this so that hopefully this thread can get back to the original intent.

NEVER ONCE WAS THIS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT LIBERTY! How freaking hard is it to read and post about the topic at hand instead of making it all about something that's been argued about 20 times already?

If a decision on a team is made on Saturday night to keep a team out, which it looks like it was in this case, why can't that decision be passed on to the team? If there are still 3-4 teams being debated, let them know that, but if someone is already obviously out, why tease them? It's like a girl during "girl time" hanging all over you and then not be able to deliver at the end of the night.

[tingly]

I just don't understand the complete aversion some have to the concept altogether going so far as to suggest that none exists.

I'd be for it, but it's one of those things that only works on paper. If it were possible to pick the right 16 teams from every possible way the season might play out, NCAA would adopt the hell out of it.

We already covered the budgeting aspect about as much as it can be. The objective stuff was about making it so you don't need a leak to know if you should send your team home, so it's not like it's unrelated.

[Green26]

I heard there were 8 teams on the board initially, before it dropped to 5, so Liberty was probably on the board coming into Sunday morning.

[CJHawkeyes]

I'd be for it, but it's one of those things that only works on paper. If it were possible to pick the right 16 teams from every possible way the season might play out, NCAA would adopt the hell out of it.

We already covered the budgeting aspect about as much as it can be. The objective stuff was about making it so you don't need a leak to know if you should send your team home, so it's not like it's unrelated.


I'm not sure I understand what you think only works on paper. I also don't know what you mean by the "right" 16 teams. Based on my idea, if you picked a winner for every game before the start of the season, I could tell you exactly where teams would finish based on those results. By definition, the "right" 16 teams would qualify for the playoffs according to the rules in play. It is a given. While someone could oppose using my idea, they could not argue that the results are wrong based on those rules any more than I could argue that the "right" 12 teams did not make the NFL playoffs according to league rules. The season is a game. The purpose of rules is to determine the winner(s) of this game. Different teams might win under different rules, but the idea is to agree to a set of rules that teams will play by. If teams played by the rules I devised, everyone would know what "hand" wins in all possible scenarios before they occur.

[tingly]

from the championship handbook, "The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to complete the bracket"

So, the right teams are the best at-large teams, not the at-large teams that work a system best with the players they have. NCAA does have a somewhat vague system, but subjectivity lets them attempt to sift through how the teams worked it and figure out the right (best) teams.

[SuperJon]

Ok, I'm done with this thread, 90% of you are too stupid to keep the thread on topic. Have fun arguing about the same thing over and over.

[WestCoastAggie]

Ok, I'm done with this thread, 90% of you are too stupid to keep the thread on topic. Have fun arguing about the same thing over and over.

I'm sorry you feel that way but the point of the matter is you guys got hozed not only by ESPN but by The Committee by not putting you in the playoffs in the first place.

It's not the fact the process should be changed but why they felt a 10-2 conference winner was not better than Maine? Thats a crock of BS!!!!

BTW: Liberty is the first school I heard of having the whole week of Thanksgiving off. I wish more schools were like that. Too bad The team had to scramble to last min. tickets after the selection show Fiasco. xsmhx

If the committee took out STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE, the Fat Cats AKA Conference Commish's of the CAA, SoCon, MVC wouldn't have a tight hold on the playoff's like they do and More teams would feel like the playoffs are more worth while to compete in anyways instead of a pipedream! xsmhx

[CJHawkeyes]

from the championship handbook, "The committee shall select the best teams available on a national at-large basis to complete the bracket"

So, the right teams are the best at-large teams, not the at-large teams that work a system best with the players they have. NCAA does have a somewhat vague system, but subjectivity lets them attempt to sift through how the teams worked it and figure out the right (best) teams.

Clearly, the NCAA does not understand how competition works if they think the best teams are entitled to playoff berths for that reason. Everywhere else in the sports world, teams qualify for the playoffs based on having better seasons as defined by the rules agreed upon. Nobody argues, well Team A had a better season than Team B, but Team B is the better team. Therefore, Team B goes to the playoffs. Again, being a better or more talented team is a competitive advantage such teams have towards winning a football game or earning a playoff berth according to the rules. It entitles them to nothing else. Whoever qualifies for a playoff, whether it is Maine or Liberty, it should be that 8-4 versus Maine's schedule is more valuable than 10-2 versus Liberty's schedule or vice versa. It should not be about whether Maine is a better team than Liberty or vice versa. That logic renders the on-field results secondary if not irrelevant.

[gator9]

Ok, I'm done with this thread, 90% of you are too stupid to keep the thread on topic. Have fun arguing about the same thing over and over.

I dont think its that we're stupid i think its just everyone is in agreement with you so they're moving on. Its like arguing the BCS ofcourse everyone wants playoffs in the upper level of Div I footbal so why waste breath talking about it, its just gonna frustrate people...we all want the FCS system changed but like the BCS its not gonna happpen unless their were to be a drastic problem with it. Hopefully Liberty's denial in the playoffs can be that drastic catalyst for change.

[tingly]

We're talking about one aspect of the original subject. I tried to explain to him.

Performance is actually the main part of judging which team is best in subjective systems. For example, Cal Poly wasn't seeded in large part because they lost to Montana. Maybe Poly was the best team of the two, but they didn't prove it to the committee's satisfaction.

Schedule strength has to be a criteria in any system. It's no secret that the way to improve your team is to play tough competition. You don't get much benefit from playing 11 games against East St. Podunk A&T College, but your team gets great experience against an Appalachian.

[WestCoastAggie]

Clearly, the NCAA does not understand how competition works if they think the best teams are entitled to playoff berths for that reason. Everywhere else in the sports world, teams qualify for the playoffs based on having better seasons as defined by the rules agreed upon. Nobody argues, well Team A had a better season than Team B, but Team B is the better team. Therefore, Team B goes to the playoffs. Again, being a better or more talented team is a competitive advantage such teams have towards winning a football game or earning a playoff berth according to the rules. It entitles them to nothing else. Whoever qualifies for a playoff, whether it is Maine or Liberty, it should be that 8-4 versus Maine's schedule is more valuable than 10-2 versus Liberty's schedule or vice versa. It should not be about whether Maine is a better team than Liberty or vice versa. That logic renders the on-field results secondary if not irrelevant.

COMMON SENSE would say to REWARD the TEAM that had the BETTER SEASON. Winning 10 games and winning a conference is BETTER than winning 8 games and placing 5TH in your conference! BUT OH WELL, THE SELECTION DOESN'T USE COMMON SENSE! xoopsx

And to those that feel that W&M should be in, WTF ARE YOU GUYS SMOKING??? Y'ALL MUST GOT SOME OF DAT GOOD DANK FROM CALI CAUSE IT WOULD BE STRAIGHT LUNACY TO PLACE A 7-4 TEAM OVER A TEAM THAT WON THEIR CONFERENCE!!!xnonox xnonox xnonox

[WestCoastAggie]

We're talking about one aspect of the original subject. I tried to explain to him.

Performance is actually the main part of judging which team is best in subjective systems. For example, Cal Poly wasn't seeded in large part because they lost to Montana. Maybe Poly was the best team of the two, but they didn't prove it to the committee's satisfaction.

Schedule strength has to be a criteria in any system. It's no secret that the way to improve your team is to play tough competition. You don't get much benefit from playing 11 games against East St. Podunk A&T College, but your team gets great experience against an Appalachian.
Did you really have to put A&T in your explanation? I know we suck epically but geezxeyebrowx xlolx xlolx xlolx