Colgate at Villanova

[TheValleyRaider]

'Nova was getting a home game no matter what, they earned it plus they got $$. Still MOST CAA teams facilities and attendance are in line with the PL's best teams, UD and JMU the exception. The two times Lehigh had good reason to place a bid they got the home game. They were not shy with money. It can be done.

I'm completely with you there xnodx

I'm not so sure about Nova getting the home game 'no matter what'. The NCAA has shown in the past that only the seeds are truly guaranteed. After that, it's all about the $$$. If our Nova friend is correct that they only bid the minimum, and if we indeed bid, then we must also have either bid the minimum, or not high enough beyond Nova to justify sending them on the road to us. If we really outbid them, the game would have been in Hamilton xtwocentsx

[Go...gate]

'Nova was getting a home game no matter what, they earned it plus they got $$. Still MOST CAA teams facilities and attendance are in line with the PL's best teams, UD and JMU the exception. The two times Lehigh had good reason to place a bid they got the home game. They were not shy with money. It can be done.

No offense to Colgate but they need the homefield more than anyone. I think it's painfully obvious their style of play does not fare well against the top shelf FCS teams. Lehigh and Fordham have had success with pro style offenses and execution. Lafayette was competitive with size and strength. Colgate either needs to get bigger and stronger or try something else. Their style is similiar to the 'Pards but Lafayette always seems bigger than 'Gate.

I see your point to a degree, but only to a degree. It is not like Colgate is some historically crappy program that can never compete against better teams on the road, or only in blizzards. To the contrary, our history says otherwise. I think Colgate needs to upgrade its scheduling (which is now much more difficult due to this "counter" stuff) so it is more ready for such games. When we played Syracuse, Wyoming, Rutgers, Duke, Army, Navy and such were more prepared for top-level games which might come up in postseason.

Also, Lehigh has had its own ignominious moments against better teams. I can remember when Lehigh went to Idaho and lost to (at that time) the "top-shelf" I-AA Vandals, 77-14, and when you guys got hammered by "top shelf" Hofstra and Delaware in playoff games not too long ago.

Let's acknowledge the 800-lb gorilla (a need for scholarships) and stop singling out Colgate as some "special needs" case. Some of the LU, LC and HC posters are having a great time doing this and it is a lot of bullcrap.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I see your point to a degree, but only to a degree. It is not like Colgate is some historically crappy program that can never compete against better teams on the road, or only in blizzards. To the contrary, our history says otherwise. I think Colgate needs to upgrade its scheduling (which is now much more difficult due to this "counter" stuff) so it is more ready for such games. When we played Syracuse, Wyoming, Rutgers, Duke, Army, Navy and such were more prepared for top-level games which might come up in postseason.

Also, Lehigh has had its own ignominious moments against better teams. I can remember when Lehigh went to Idaho and lost to (at that time) the "top-shelf" I-AA Vandals, 77-14, and when you guys got hammered by "top shelf" Hofstra and Delaware in playoff games not too long ago.



You can't look at what happened to PL teams between '92-'96. The PL fell off the map during the early to mid 90's, their performance in OOC games showed that. The same year Lehigh lost to Idaho 77-14 they lost to Delaware 62-21. Lehigh was 7-4 that year but outside of a couple players here and there was not very talented. Lafayette won the PL in 1994 with a 5-6 record. If this doesn't prove how bad the PL was in the mid 90's nothing will. They went O'fer in OOC whic included a 17 point loss to D2 East Stroudsburg and dominated the rest of the PL.

Lafayette's 1994 Results
ESU 14-31 L
Penn 7-27 L
Hofstra 6-27 L
Columbia 15-28 L
Dartmouth 15-27 L
Navy 0-7 L
Holy Cross 17-9 W
Bucknell 56-14 W
Colgate 14-6 W
Fordham 34-6 W
Lehigh 54-20 W

As far as Lehigh's playoff perfomance. It's been pretty good. They've only lost by more than 20 once and that came against Delaware in '00, 45-22. The game you speak of against Hofstra was anything but a blowout. Hofstra won 27-15. They sealed it late in the 4th with a TD. Every team Lehigh played was Top 10 when they played them. UD, WIU, Furman, and Richmond were top five. Lehigh was outscored 29.4-17.6 in their 5 playoff losses.

Lehigh's playoff perfomance and opponents final ranking.
1998
#10 Richmond 24-23 W
#1 Umass 21-27 L (Lehigh had 4 shots from the Umass 10 with a minute to go and couldn't score)
1999
#7 Hofstra 15-27 L
2000
#12 Western Illinois 37-7 W
#3 Delaware 22-45 L
2001
#11 Hofstra 27-24 W
#2 Furman 17-34 L
2004
#1 JMU 13-14 L

Colgate has been outscored by and average of 50.7-19.7 in their 6 playoff losses !! That's terrible anyway you cut it.
Colgates
1997
#5 Villanova 28-49 L
1998
#2 Georgia Southern 28-49 L
1999
#3 Illinois State 13-56 L
2003
#11 Umass 19-7 W
#6 Western Illinois 27-24 W
#4 FAU 36-24 W
#1 Delaware 0-40 L
2005
#5 UNH 21-55 L
2008
(??)Villanova 28-55 L

[Pards Rule]

WTF was CN8 showing the Niagara-Hartford basketball game when I was looking to see the PLAYOFF game of 'Nova vs. Colgate! Who the hell schedules for CN8?!?!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, Virginia, this one was ugly. Expect a writeup on the blog in, oh, a couple hours.

To be honest, though, I think the crux of the problem isn't so much the Patriot League as it is that Villanova is a damned good team. This is a team that was a Hail Mary away from being undefeated in FCS play, and probably ought to have been seeded. And you can't compare the Wildcats' loss to W Va/the win against Lehigh/the squeaker against Penn to the team they have now since Whitney wasn't the QB. From that time forward, 'Nova went from being an extremely good team to a great team.

This game wasn't lost on offense. Everyone knew Colgate had to keep the game close from the get-go to have a chance to poach it late. Once the opening kickoff was a TD for 'Nova, Colgate was playing catch-up, and that's not really their game.

Expect, however, a word on scholarships in the blog today.

[LUHawker]

I think the Colgate fans on this board and the Colgate board are feeling a bit ambushed by the number and severity of many of the comments towards Colgate's performance vs. Nova. I think that many Colgate fans are scratching their heads and saying, "we're a league member and really taking abuse from our so-called PL brethren, what gives?"

I think some of the comments are a little sour grapes, but Colgate won the bid fair and square, so let me attempt to put a little perspective on it for the Gate fans. Colgate had a magical year in 2003 which we can all agree was a tremendous accomplishment. Outside of that year, Colgate has been a PL rep in the playoffs 5 other times and unfortunately, they have been wallopped each time. The last two appearances, including Saturday's debacle at Villanova, were real clock-cleanings. So from a PL fan's perspective, it is very frustrating to see your rep in the playoffs have such poor showings. I doubt that it is anything malicious against Gate; rather it is Gate's poor playoff performance. It's not even the fact of losing the game, but rather how badly the losses were. Fordham, Lafayette, and yes, Virginia, Lehigh too, have lost in the playoffs, but even in the losses, they all played well and made a game of it. Despite the fact that Colgate made the finals in 2003, it also didn't help that they got shellacked in that one as well and put up a big goose egg on the scoreboard.

So in the end, I think most PL fans were pulling for Gate and while most if not all didn't expect a victory, we all expected a better showing from "our" PL rep.

[Franks Tanks]

You can't look at what happened to PL teams between '92-'96. The PL fell off the map during the early to mid 90's, their performance in OOC games showed that. The same year Lehigh lost to Idaho 77-14 they lost to Delaware 62-21. Lehigh was 7-4 that year but outside of a couple players here and there was not very talented. Lafayette won the PL in 1994 with a 5-6 record. If this doesn't prove how bad the PL was in the mid 90's nothing will. They went O'fer in OOC whic included a 17 point loss to D2 East Stroudsburg and dominated the rest of the PL.

Lafayette's 1994 Results
ESU 14-31 L
Penn 7-27 L
Hofstra 6-27 L
Columbia 15-28 L
Dartmouth 15-27 L
Navy 0-7 L
Holy Cross 17-9 W
Bucknell 56-14 W
Colgate 14-6 W
Fordham 34-6 W
Lehigh 54-20 W

As far as Lehigh's playoff perfomance. It's been pretty good. They've only lost by more than 20 once and that came against Delaware in '00, 45-22. The game you speak of against Hofstra was anything but a blowout. Hofstra won 27-15. They sealed it late in the 4th with a TD. Every team Lehigh played was Top 10 when they played them. UD, WIU, Furman, and Richmond were top five. Lehigh was outscored 29.4-17.6 in their 5 playoff losses.

Lehigh's playoff perfomance and opponents final ranking.
1998
#10 Richmond 24-23 W
#1 Umass 21-27 L (Lehigh had 4 shots from the Umass 10 with a minute to go and couldn't score)
1999
#7 Hofstra 15-27 L
2000
#12 Western Illinois 37-7 W
#3 Delaware 22-45 L
2001
#11 Hofstra 27-24 W
#2 Furman 17-34 L
2004
#1 JMU 13-14 L

Colgate has been outscored by and average of 50.7-19.7 in their 6 playoff losses !! That's terrible anyway you cut it.
Colgates
1997
#5 Villanova 28-49 L
1998
#2 Georgia Southern 28-49 L
1999
#3 Illinois State 13-56 L
2003
#11 Umass 19-7 W
#6 Western Illinois 27-24 W
#4 FAU 36-24 W
#1 Delaware 0-40 L
2005
#5 UNH 21-55 L
2008
(??)Villanova 28-55 L


The strangest thing about that season is a two TD loss to East Stroudsburg and then a 7-0 loss to Navy-- how weird. Also Lafayette clearly hit their stride that year toward the end and probably wasnt playing very well at the beginning. It is however a poor sign when the league champ has a losing record and gets blanked outside the conference.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh actually lost 47-22 in '00.

Here's the Pards and Rams Playoff history
Lafayette
'04
#7 Delaware 14-28 L
'05
#1 App State 23-34 L
'06
#2 Umass 14-35 L

Fordham
'02
#11 Northeastern 29-24 W
#4 Villanova 10-24 L
'07
#7 Umass 35-49 L

[colorless raider]

I think the Colgate fans on this board and the Colgate board are feeling a bit ambushed by the number and severity of many of the comments towards Colgate's performance vs. Nova. I think that many Colgate fans are scratching their heads and saying, "we're a league member and really taking abuse from our so-called PL brethren, what gives?"

I think some of the comments are a little sour grapes, but Colgate won the bid fair and square, so let me attempt to put a little perspective on it for the Gate fans. Colgate had a magical year in 2003 which we can all agree was a tremendous accomplishment. Outside of that year, Colgate has been a PL rep in the playoffs 5 other times and unfortunately, they have been wallopped each time. The last two appearances, including Saturday's debacle at Villanova, were real clock-cleanings. So from a PL fan's perspective, it is very frustrating to see your rep in the playoffs have such poor showings. I doubt that it is anything malicious against Gate; rather it is Gate's poor playoff performance. It's not even the fact of losing the game, but rather how badly the losses were. Fordham, Lafayette, and yes, Virginia, Lehigh too, have lost in the playoffs, but even in the losses, they all played well and made a game of it. Despite the fact that Colgate made the finals in 2003, it also didn't help that they got shellacked in that one as well and put up a big goose egg on the scoreboard.

So in the end, I think most PL fans were pulling for Gate and while most if not all didn't expect a victory, we all expected a better showing from "our" PL rep.

First let me say that while we got off to a terrible start vs Nova, it would be a big stretch to say we might have won. Nova was clearly superior. Moreover this team was not as good as our 2003 team and with the escalation of the AI at Colgate and the PL in general it is unrealistic to expect the same talent level as five years ago UNLESS the presidents wake up and insitute scholarships. We will still have an AI to deal with but we will be better and have a better chance vs the CAA or other scholarship schools. In additon it will give us all a chance to play the occassional FBS team such as Army or Navy.

[Go...gate]

I think the Colgate fans on this board and the Colgate board are feeling a bit ambushed by the number and severity of many of the comments towards Colgate's performance vs. Nova. I think that many Colgate fans are scratching their heads and saying, "we're a league member and really taking abuse from our so-called PL brethren, what gives?"

I think some of the comments are a little sour grapes, but Colgate won the bid fair and square, so let me attempt to put a little perspective on it for the Gate fans. Colgate had a magical year in 2003 which we can all agree was a tremendous accomplishment. Outside of that year, Colgate has been a PL rep in the playoffs 5 other times and unfortunately, they have been wallopped each time. The last two appearances, including Saturday's debacle at Villanova, were real clock-cleanings. So from a PL fan's perspective, it is very frustrating to see your rep in the playoffs have such poor showings. I doubt that it is anything malicious against Gate; rather it is Gate's poor playoff performance. It's not even the fact of losing the game, but rather how badly the losses were. Fordham, Lafayette, and yes, Virginia, Lehigh too, have lost in the playoffs, but even in the losses, they all played well and made a game of it. Despite the fact that Colgate made the finals in 2003, it also didn't help that they got shellacked in that one as well and put up a big goose egg on the scoreboard.

So in the end, I think most PL fans were pulling for Gate and while most if not all didn't expect a victory, we all expected a better showing from "our" PL rep.

Guess it's time for us to leave the PL, we just aren't good enough anymore. Maybe the Pioneer will take us. Hey, Flyer, how 'bout we join your circuit? :)

[the last indian]

I agree with the bland Raider above. Maybe our grind it out style for some reason is not effective in the playoffs, got me. I do not see how any of the PL teams would not have lost this game by a considerable margin. Perhaps Holy Cross, with their ability to put up points from anywhere on the field might have fared better. But Randolf would have spent a good part of the afternoon on his back and they were not going to stop the 'Nova offense. But who knows.
As a league, if we want to compete in the playoffs and as the Colorless one points out, in some higher visibility games during the season, then change must come probably in the form of scholarships. Why permit them in every sport other than football. That is a strange form of discrimination, IMO.

[LUHawker]

Guess it's time for us to leave the PL, we just aren't good enough anymore. Maybe the Pioneer will take us. Hey, Flyer, how 'bout we join your circuit? :)

How on God's earth did you infer that anyone thinks Gate should leave the PL? I love Colgate in the PL and the nice little rivalry that has developed with Lehigh. I think the thrust of the post was that we PL fans are just as disappointed in the performance as Colgate fans and we're trying to understand why Colgate struggles so mightily come playoff time.

[Go...gate]

I was kidding, Hawker. I even invited DetroitFlyer in to take the bait! :D

[LUHawker]

I was kidding, Hawker. I even invited DetroitFlyer in to take the bait! :D

Uh sorry, missed that completely. xdohx

Seriously, I'd like to get back to where the PL was getting 2 into the playoffs and winning some!

[Go...gate]

You and me both. However, my big concern is that the PL leadership will just be happy to have an auto-bid and not make any global moves to make the conference teams more competitive in OOC and play-off competition.

[jlcharles]

First let me say that while we got off to a terrible start vs Nova, it would be a big stretch to say we might have won. Nova was clearly superior. Moreover this team was not as good as our 2003 team and with the escalation of the AI at Colgate and the PL in general it is unrealistic to expect the same talent level as five years ago UNLESS the presidents wake up and insitute scholarships. We will still have an AI to deal with but we will be better and have a better chance vs the CAA or other scholarship schools. In additon it will give us all a chance to play the occassional FBS team such as Army or Navy.

Quick, probably dumb, question. What's AI?

[Go...gate]

Academic Index.

[DetroitFlyer]

Guess it's time for us to leave the PL, we just aren't good enough anymore. Maybe the Pioneer will take us. Hey, Flyer, how 'bout we join your circuit? :)


At least if you joined the PFL, you would not have to worry about getting hammered in the first round of the playoffs....xrolleyesx

The obvious solution, ( so rest assurred we will NEVER see it ), is to create a I-AAA division. The PFL, Ivy, PL, NEC and maybe even the MEAC and SWAC could be members. Of course, there may also be new teams and conferences coming in, (A-Sun).

Yeah, I know, there are a gazillion reasons why this will never come to pass.... Still, that does not mean that it is not a great idea.

Getting back to Colgate, the PFL would be lucky to have them. I think Georgetown would be a more obvious candidate....

Frankly, I do not understand the obsession with getting hammered in the first round. It happens EVERY week in college football, at every level, in every conference, and in every playoff.... It even happens in the FBS bowl games once in a while. The key is to get there and have the opportunity. Maybe the PL, OVC and MEAC do not win often, but every once in a while you just never know.... That is what makes it interesting. A 16 never beats a 1 in the BB tourney. Still, those 16's are sure glad to be there, and there have been some scares.... One day, who knows....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Frankly, I do not understand the obsession with getting hammered in the first round. It happens EVERY week in college football, at every level, in every conference, and in every playoff.... It even happens in the FBS bowl games once in a while. The key is to get there and have the opportunity. Maybe the PL, OVC and MEAC do not win often, but every once in a while you just never know.... That is what makes it interesting. A 16 never beats a 1 in the BB tourney. Still, those 16's are sure glad to be there, and there have been some scares.... One day, who knows....

Ask Boise State about that. xlolx

[DetroitFlyer]

Ask Boise State about that. xlolx


Sounds like a great candidate for FCS....xlolx I would travel to Boise State just to see that blue field!

[LehighFan11]

At least if you joined the PFL, you would not have to worry about getting hammered in the first round of the playoffs....xrolleyesx

The obvious solution, ( so rest assurred we will NEVER see it ), is to create a I-AAA division. The PFL, Ivy, PL, NEC and maybe even the MEAC and SWAC could be members. Of course, there may also be new teams and conferences coming in, (A-Sun).

Yeah, I know, there are a gazillion reasons why this will never come to pass.... Still, that does not mean that it is not a great idea.

Getting back to Colgate, the PFL would be lucky to have them. I think Georgetown would be a more obvious candidate....

Frankly, I do not understand the obsession with getting hammered in the first round. It happens EVERY week in college football, at every level, in every conference, and in every playoff.... It even happens in the FBS bowl games once in a while. The key is to get there and have the opportunity. Maybe the PL, OVC and MEAC do not win often, but every once in a while you just never know.... That is what makes it interesting. A 16 never beats a 1 in the BB tourney. Still, those 16's are sure glad to be there, and there have been some scares.... One day, who knows....

I don't think it is about this one game that Colgate got hammered in, its the trend that Colgate is beginning to create.

[Go...gate]

I don't think it is about this one game that Colgate got hammered in, its the trend that Colgate is beginning to create.


What ruffians those Colgate people are - COMMON SWINE! Cast them aside as one would treat flotsam and jetsam! :p

[TheValleyRaider]

Yeah, I know, there are a gazillion reasons why this will never come to pass.... Still, that does not mean that it is not a great idea.

I'm pretty sure the fact it's not a great idea is one of those gazillion reasons... xwhistlex

[PeacockRaider]

Just got my internet service back up and running and am catching up on threads...I was at the game last saturday, and it wasn't pretty but these things happens some times. It is comical how every pl poster knows how their team would have faired so much better...simple solution actually beat Colgate then you'll have your chance. And for Lafayette fans to say anything negative about Colgate is even more comical...What's your record vs the gate the last 13 years?