Mike Mussina: Hall of Famer?

[UMass922]

Mike Mussina has announced his retirement. Does he belong in the Hall of Fame?

His career stats:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mussimi01.shtml

[phoenixphanatic21]

As much as I don't like the guy, he does deserve to get in. It's hard to argue against it.

[B&G]

Yes but maybe not on the first ballot.

[UMass922]

I'll throw out a comparison with a contemporary of Mussina's who's believed to be a sure-fire HOFer:

W/L %:
Tom Glavine: 305-203, .600
Mike Mussina: 270-153, .638

adjusted ERA+:
Tom Glavine: 118
Mike Mussina: 123

seasons w/ERA+ 125 or better:
Tom Glavine: 10 in 22 years
Mike Mussina: 12 in 18 years

K/BB:
Tom Glavine: 2607/1500 (1.74/1)
Mike Mussina: 2813/785 (3.58/1)

WHIP:
Tom Glavine: 1.314
Mike Mussina: 1.192

[slycat]

Yes but give it time. He was my favorite pitcher for the Orioles.

[GolfingGriz]

Yes but give it time. He was my favorite pitcher for the Orioles.

As a die hard O's fan Mussina leaving was difficult. Now that he is no longer a Yankee he is definately a hall of famer.

[UNHWildCats]

Yes!

[MSUfan2010]

No doubt what so ever.

[andy7171]

F that douche bag! Moose is dead to me!

[bandl]

Yes but give it time. He was my favorite pitcher for the Orioles.


As a die hard O's fan Mussina leaving was difficult. Now that he is no longer a Yankee he is definately a hall of famer.


F that douche bag! Moose is dead to me!

Yeah, what he said! xlolx

I have mixed emotions about him. :o Second favorite player (behind Cal) while with the O's...then he betrayed us for the stinkin' Yanks! Never forgave him for that...but can't deny he's been a great pitcher... xreadx

[AshevilleApp2]

He's got a good shot of getting in, but he's not a lock. Jack Morris had some good numbers and never came close to making the HOF.

[appfan2008]

I have to go with a definitive no!

I think in his era at least these players were better if not more...
maddux
johnson
clemens
smoltz
glavine
martinez
and maybe more...

[Ivytalk]

I voted no. Good but not great.

Also, he took so long between pitches that it seemed like his career lasted 10 years longer than it did. You could go out to the kitchen and make a sandwich between his pitches. And it seemed to take him 30 seconds to come to the set position.xrolleyesx

[TheValleyRaider]

I have to go with a definitive no!

I think in his era at least these players were better if not more...
maddux
johnson
clemens
smoltz
glavine
martinez
and maybe more...

You sure about that? xeyebrowx


W/L %:
Tom Glavine: 305-203, .600
Mike Mussina: 270-153, .638

adjusted ERA+:
Tom Glavine: 118
Mike Mussina: 123

seasons w/ERA+ 125 or better:
Tom Glavine: 10 in 22 years
Mike Mussina: 12 in 18 years

K/BB:
Tom Glavine: 2607/1500 (1.74/1)
Mike Mussina: 2813/785 (3.58/1)

WHIP:
Tom Glavine: 1.314
Mike Mussina: 1.192

[89Hen]

Hard to believe last year was his first 20 win season. Way to go out on top! One losing season after his rookie year, 270 wins, 8 seasons of 17+ wins, 57 complete games, 3.58 BB/K ratio... he's got my vote.

BTW, I'm not sure if this stat is out of line or impressive, but 537 games pitched and only 29 intentional walks? That seems low, as in managers let him pitch to anyone. xpeacex

[GannonFan]

He ain't getting in. Glavine gets in because he's got 300 wins, Moose doesn't have 300 wins. Very good pitcher, not Hall of Famer though.

[andy7171]

I can't get past his double crossing, backstabbing, traitor like characteristics. Oh wait, you guys are talking about his stats? PPPSSSSSHHHHHHHH!

I hope he enjoys those World Series Championships he left town for ... while he rots in he11!

[89Hen]

He ain't getting in. Glavine gets in because he's got 300 wins, Moose doesn't have 300 wins. Very good pitcher, not Hall of Famer though.
That's silly. Stay in the league two more years and he's at 300. But all too often we criticize players for hanging on too long. So which is it?

[JoltinJoe]

I was thinking that Mussina was a "near miss" type until something someone said to me this morning.

"If you vote no on Moose, then you are pretty much saying that a starting pitcher must get 300 wins in order to get in."

Still thinking about that ... Perhaps I'll change my mind.

[UNHWildCats]

I have to go with a definitive no!

I think in his era at least these players were better if not more...
maddux
johnson
clemens <---- Cheating douche
smoltz
glavine
martinez
and maybe more...
:p

I agree there have been plenty of great pitchers in the era from the late 80s til today. Some would say Mussina is a very good, but not great pitcher, but you cant discount what he did in an era of cheaters and great offensive output.

[andy7171]

:p

I agree there have been plenty of great pitchers in the era from the late 80s til today. Some would say Mussina is a very good, but not great pitcher, but you cant discount what he did in an era of cheaters and great offensive output.

Oh he cheated alright! He cheated on the Orioles fans.

[blueballs]

I'll throw out a comparison with a contemporary of Mussina's who's believed to be a sure-fire HOFer:

W/L %:
Tom Glavine: 305-203, .600
Mike Mussina: 270-153, .638

adjusted ERA+:
Tom Glavine: 118
Mike Mussina: 123

seasons w/ERA+ 125 or better:
Tom Glavine: 10 in 22 years
Mike Mussina: 12 in 18 years

K/BB:
Tom Glavine: 2607/1500 (1.74/1)
Mike Mussina: 2813/785 (3.58/1)

WHIP:
Tom Glavine: 1.314
Mike Mussina: 1.192

Ah yes, the inevitable Tom Glavine comparison, which leaves out the following:

Glavine had five 20 win seasons
Glavine won the Cy Young twice
Glavine was the MVP of the World Series in 1995, throwing 8 innings of one hit shut out ball in the series clinching win
Glavine was an all star 10 times
Glavine is the winningest LHP of his era and one of only 5 LH 300 game winners since 1900 (let that sink in)

Mussina was one of the best pitchers of his era, but Glavine was one of the top left handed starters ever. Glavine is a cinch HOF, Mussina should only be given consideration after Blyleven is voted in.

Mussina did beat Glavine in one all important stat though, career earnings, $144m to $128m.xeekx

[GannonFan]

That's silly. Stay in the league two more years and he's at 300. But all too often we criticize players for hanging on too long. So which is it?


We've already established that you can hang on, squeak past 300 wins, and get in. Didn't Don Sutton get in that way? Phil Niekro too. You can get in with less than 300 wins, but you have to be real, real good. Maybe not quite Koufax good, but at least in that ballpark.

Mussina was a consistently good pitcher, but never great. Heck, I think the closest he came to a Cy Young award was second one time (1999) - hard to think this guy is an all-time great when he was overshadowed by the great pitchers of his own day.

[89Hen]

I think the closest he came to a Cy Young award was second one time (1999) - hard to think this guy is an all-time great when he was overshadowed by the great pitchers of his own day.
Cy Young is an award for one year of pitching. Winners during Mussina's era: Pat Hentgen, Bartolo Colon, Roy Haladay, Cliff Lee.... all very good pitchers, but pale to Mussina's career numbers. Barry Bonds holds the all-time HR record, yet only was the leader in HR's TWO years.

Baseball, for better or worse, is a game of longevity, not flash in the pan. xpeacex

[89Hen]

BTW, not even sure why I'd even argue anything in baseball. It's way down the list of sports for me and to be quite honest, I really don't know much about it. :o

[GannonFan]

Cy Young is an award for one year of pitching. Winners during Mussina's era: Pat Hentgen, Bartolo Colon, Roy Haladay, Cliff Lee.... all very good pitchers, but pale to Mussina's career numbers. Barry Bonds holds the all-time HR record, yet only was the leader in HR's TWO years.

Baseball, for better or worse, is a game of longevity, not flash in the pan. xpeacex

But, it does help to have a year or two where you are that flash in the pan while also having a long, good career. Bonds, in your example, did lead the majors twice, which is twice more than Mussina has.

[Black and Gold Express]

I think he gets in, but I do find it satisfying that he never got that WS ring he was looking for when he went to the Bronx. I understand why he left, the Birds were going in the toilet and he had to look out for himself first.

I remember the first game he pitched at OPACY as a Yankee. The place was so eerily silent when he pitched, it was the weirdest experience I have had at a game. An odd mixture of mourning his leaving and "enjoying" him one last time before turning the hate on him in full force.

A small part of me hopes he signs one of those one-day contracts with the O's to finish out as a Bird.

[89Hen]

But, it does help to have a year or two where you are that flash in the pan while also having a long, good career. Bonds, in your example, did lead the majors twice, which is twice more than Mussina has.
Cy Young is a vote. HR's is not.

1995 AL Wins Leader - Mike Mussina (BAL) 19
1995 AL Shutout Leader - Mike Mussina (BAL) 4
1992 AL Win/Loss % Leader - Mike Mussina (BAL) .783
2000 AL Innings Leader - Mike Mussina (BAL) 237.7

Career Rank (All-time)

Strikeouts
19. Mike Mussina 2813

Strikeouts to Walks
13. Mike Mussina 3.580

Wins
33. Mike Mussina 270

[Marcus Garvey]

My first thought was "no." He never put together a string of monster seasons. But he was consistently good, something few pitchers ever are. Then I saw some comparisons of his numbers with a few HoF pitchers (notably Jim Palmer, Bob Feller and Fergie Jenkins) and realized, that he does deserve to be in the HoF.

He'll get in within 5 years of being eligible. Playing for the Yankees all those years will help.

[Gil Dobie]

Saw him in Omaha in the CWS, so I've been following his career since. Should get in eventually.

[andy7171]

I think he gets in, but I do find it satisfying that he never got that WS ring he was looking for when he went to the Bronx. I understand why he left, the Birds were going in the toilet and he had to look out for himself first.

I remember the first game he pitched at OPACY as a Yankee. The place was so eerily silent when he pitched, it was the weirdest experience I have had at a game. An odd mixture of mourning his leaving and "enjoying" him one last time before turning the hate on him in full force.

A small part of me hopes he signs one of those one-day contracts with the O's to finish out as a Bird.

I was there too. My wife wore her Oriole Mussina jersey. He was her favorite player. Nobody really knew what to do.

We do now.


Oh and BTW, no one but Eli Jacobs liked the name Oriole Park but he was the owner and forced the name. Jerk. Just call it Camden Yards. xthumbsupx

[89Hen]

Just call it Camden Yards. xthumbsupx
I can't be OPACY or "the Ope" never caught on. :p

[andy7171]

I can't be OPACY or "the Ope" never caught on. :p

It actually took me three takes to figure out what OPACY meant.

[Black and Gold Express]

I was there too. My wife wore her Oriole Mussina jersey. He was her favorite player. Nobody really knew what to do.

We do now.


Oh and BTW, no one but Eli Jacobs liked the name Oriole Park but he was the owner and forced the name. Jerk. Just call it Camden Yards. xthumbsupx

Old habits never die. Been referring to it as OPACY since it was built...

[89Hen]

It actually took me three takes to figure out what OPACY meant.
Me too. That was the first time I'd ever seen it.

Hey B&G, do you actually say it out?... oh-pah-see?

[andy7171]

Me too. That was the first time I'd ever seen it.

Hey B&G, do you actually say it out?... oh-pah-see?

It's even better with a Bawlmer accent, hon! OHpahSAYe xlolx xlolx xlolx

[GannonFan]

Cy Young is a vote. HR's is not.

1995 AL Wins Leader - Mike Mussina (BAL) 19
1995 AL Shutout Leader - Mike Mussina (BAL) 4
1992 AL Win/Loss % Leader - Mike Mussina (BAL) .783
2000 AL Innings Leader - Mike Mussina (BAL) 237.7

Career Rank (All-time)

Strikeouts
19. Mike Mussina 2813

Strikeouts to Walks
13. Mike Mussina 3.580

Wins
33. Mike Mussina 270

Thing is, he's going to be going up against a lot of other better pitchers from the same era. Guys like Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, and even pre-roids Roger Clemens, are going to get in before he does.

[89Hen]

Thing is, he's going to be going up against a lot of other better pitchers from the same era. Guys like Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, and even pre-roids Roger Clemens, are going to get in before he does.
Wouldn't that be an arguement over whether he actually gets in vs is he deserving?

[GannonFan]

Wouldn't that be an arguement over whether he actually gets in vs is he deserving?

Not necessarily. Players are always judged versus their peers in the era they played in as to whether they should be included in the Hall. That's an important consideration when you factor in the difficulty of comparing one generation to another. Richie Asburn had to wait for the Old Timer's Committee to make the Hall of Fame because he happened to play in an era with exceptional centerfielders and he initially got lost in their wake. Maybe Mussina's an Old Timer's Committee guy.

[gmoney55]

Thing is, he's going to be going up against a lot of other better pitchers from the same era. Guys like Smoltz, Glavine, Maddux, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, and even pre-roids Roger Clemens, are going to get in before he does.

Exactly, which is why I voted no. He will be one of those guys that people have a good debate over 10-15 years from now, and maybe gets in then. But he just didn't stand out as a dominant pitcher in this era.

Arguments sake he does get in....what cap will be on his head?

[gmoney55]

Exactly, which is why I voted no. He will be one of those guys that people have a good debate over 10-15 years from now, and maybe gets in then. But he just didn't stand out as a dominant pitcher in this era.

Arguments sake he does get in....what cap will be on his head?

OK forget the last question, his numbers are pretty easily better as an Oriole.

[UMass922]

Ah yes, the inevitable Tom Glavine comparison, which leaves out the following:

Glavine had five 20 win seasons
Glavine won the Cy Young twice
Glavine was the MVP of the World Series in 1995, throwing 8 innings of one hit shut out ball in the series clinching win
Glavine was an all star 10 times
Glavine is the winningest LHP of his era and one of only 5 LH 300 game winners since 1900 (let that sink in)

Mussina was one of the best pitchers of his era, but Glavine was one of the top left handed starters ever. Glavine is a cinch HOF, Mussina should only be given consideration after Blyleven is voted in.

Mussina did beat Glavine in one all important stat though, career earnings, $144m to $128m.xeekx

I left out those things because everyone already knows them. It's well known that Glavine has won 300 games, two Cy Youngs, and a World Series title. My point was to show that when you actually look at the more vital statistics, it's arguable that Mussina was, overall, a more effective pitcher.

The thing about Cy Young awards and All-Star appearances is that they're subjective accomplishments--they're the result of voting by writers; they're not directly earned. Not saying that Glavine didn't deserve his Cy Youngs and his All-Star appearances, just that those aren't the primary things you should be going on when evaluating a pitcher's HOF credentials. Nolan Ryan never won a Cy Young, nor did many other pitchers who are in the Hall. And there are many, many Cy Young winners who've never gotten a whiff of the Hall of Fame.

As for 300 wins, Glavine has also had four more years than Mussina to accomplish that. Mussina is retiring after 18 years. Glavine, after his first 18 years, had 265 wins. In the season that he got his 300th win, Glavine had an ERA of 4.45 (worse than the league average). I'm not sure what that really proves. If Mussina hangs around for three more years, and goes 10-15 with an ERA of 5.00 each year, he'd get to 300 wins--and prove what, exactly?

As for Glavine being the winningest lefty of his era, his grip on that claim is tenuous. If Randy Johnson wins 10 games next year, he'll match Glavine's win total (and in the same number of seasons, 22). And in any case, Johnson, not Glavine, was unquestionably the most dominant lefty of his era, even if he doesn't quite finish with the most wins.

As for the postseason:

Glavine: 35 games (35 starts), 14-16, 3.42 ERA, 143 Ks and 87 walks (1.64/1) in 218 1/3 innings, WHIP of 1.273.

Mussina: 23 games (21 starts), 7-8, 3.42 ERA, 145 Ks and 33 walks (4.39/1) in 139 2/3 innings, WHIP of 1.103.

Anyway, I'm really not trying to be an anti-Glavine guy here; I like him, and he's unquestionably a deserving HOFer and one of the best pitchers of his era. And I'm actually still undecided about Mussina (believe it or not), though I'm really starting to lean in his direction. Just trying to offer some food for thought . . .

[andy7171]

You guys don't understand, Moose is a GIANT CS'er!



...and as long as THE citdog is present, I won't be the longest grudge holder.

[UNHWildCats]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y78/ChadFinn/mussina09347940640.jpg

[GolfingGriz]

You guys don't understand, Moose is a GIANT CS'er!



...and as long as THE citdog is present, I won't be the longest grudge holder.

The thing that really pissed me off about when he became a Yankee was how in July of 2000 he said he would not leave the Orioles. If he could have been honest we could have atleast traded him.

[ngineer]

I agree he eventually makes it, but not on the first or second ballots.

[ISUMatt]

Not until Bert Blyleven gets in