Big 3?

[Reign of Terrier]

With Wofford winning and Elon closing out the regular season last week it's now the second straight year that two of "The Big 3" in the Socon have not finished in the top three. From what I've seen on the Furman websites--they don't like Lamb as much as they did a couple years ago and one went as far as saying Ingle Martin "carried the team" before the last two years. Georgia Southern on the other hand has been in a downward spiral due to Van gorder. Me like a lot of people believe that GSU would still be an 8 or 9 win team had they kept the triple option. In other words as soon as the option left town so did GSU's championship ways.

On the other hand teams have gotten more competitive. Elon and Wofford have become power houses. The teams on the lower half of the conference are becoming more competitive too. And there's also Samford.

My question to you My Socon buddies is is there a "Big 3" anymore or are they just down on there luck? This isn't smack--the Socon is way different then it was 5 years ago.

App is still king and they really shouldn't be in this discussion.

[beauvighn]

I think it is probably App. St. and then everybody else right now. To go unscathed through the conference is quite a feat. I look for this to continue through...let's say... after next season.

They should enjoy it while it lasts... GSU will tell you that the sun doesn't shine on the same dogs butt forever.

[Griz0383]

What’s the chance the big heads send Wofford back to Montana for round 1? I’d rather not see an option team but another shot at those pesky terriers might be intriguing. Just a thought! xreadx

[beauvighn]

I doubt they would send Wofford to Montana for a repeat. If they do feel Wofford deserves a plne ride I could see Cal Poly before Montana. They want to keep the Griz around more than 1 round again ..you know...the attendance and money thing.

Anyways, it's too darn cold in Montana this time of year. So. Cal. is much nicer.

[Reign of Terrier]

A lot of people say that Wofford isn't consistant enough. I have trouble believing that really. We've been in the conference 11 seasons, producing 9 winning seasons including 5 8 win seasons. We've been in the playoffs twice but have been Woofed at least once. We were one win away from the playoffs about 2 or 3 times. Here's the big stat: 10-10 against the Big 3.

[Reign of Terrier]

....oh and we have a longer current winning season streak than GSUxsmiley_wix

[catamount man]

The SoCon's big 3 now are App, Wofford, and Elon. NO QUESTIONS!

I sure hope and pray that Western Carolina gets there someday.:)

[appstate38]

I think it is a combination of the 2.... Wofford and Elon have improved their programs to the point where they are contenders every year. I think Furman and GSU may be struggling a little with what their identities are. And what kind of programs they want to have. There used to be some staples that you got from both of them that seem to be missing now. Talent has never been a question IMO. I think once the Eagles and Paladins figure out what they want to be known for then this league will be that much more stronger.

[GannonFan]

Elon is a "powerhouse"? Elon is a "contender every year"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this going to be only Elon's 2nd winning season this decade? And if they lose to Liberty Elon will still be a team that's never made the playoffs. Apparently powerhouses and contenders aren't what they used to be. xrolleyesx

[introvertedGSUfan]

GSU is rebuilding, it's certainly not "struggling to find its identity" anymore since we have a great coach right now who is really instilling some discipline into our team. Have you people not paid attention to anything said by us GSU posters this year? We expected this type of season more or less due to an extremely inexperienced OL and new QBs.

[gophoenix]

Elon is a "powerhouse"? Elon is a "contender every year"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this going to be only Elon's 2nd winning season this decade? And if they lose to Liberty Elon will still be a team that's never made the playoffs. Apparently powerhouses and contenders aren't what they used to be. xrolleyesx

3rd winning season this decade.

But the points are well taken.

[seantaylor]

Elon is not a powerhouse. The Socon is as weak as it has ever been this year.

[gophoenix]

Elon is not a powerhouse. The Socon is as weak as it has ever been this year.

Just cause GSU and The Citadel suck this year doesn't mean the conference is weak.

But hey, when you're school is playing bad, why not bring the rest of the conference down, eh?

[introvertedGSUfan]

Just cause GSU and The Citadel suck this year doesn't mean the conference is weak.

But hey, when you're school is playing bad, why not bring the rest of the conference down, eh?

ASU and Elon both lost to CAA teams, so his post may have some validity, but hey why not continue attack other people's opinions, eh?

[89Hen]

A lot of people say that Wofford isn't consistant enough. I have trouble believing that really.
Wofford has the #1 rushing offense, the #109 passsing offense and the #78 total defense. Eventually you run into a team that can stop the run and Wofford can't do anything about it. I just don't think you can win championships with such a lopsided attack and that low of a defense ranking.

For comparison sake...

JMU = #5 rushing, #110 passing, #15 defense
App = #6 rushing, #48 passing, #72 defense

You've either got to be able to pass the ball, or have the D to stuff everyone.

When WC came to Newark in 2003, they had no shot. Delaware had already seen two option teams in Navy (#1 rushing team in I-A) and URI (#1 rushing team in I-AA) and beaten both. They were incredibly stout against the run come playoff time. SIU was a running team, the UNI game was played in bitter cold which made it a running game, WC was a running team, Colgate was a running team.... that's why UD had one of the most dominating playoffs on record.

[terrierbob]

One we get a real fast backfield, watch out. We did well Saturday, however.

[ElonPride]

Elon is a "powerhouse"? Elon is a "contender every year"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this going to be only Elon's 2nd winning season this decade? And if they lose to Liberty Elon will still be a team that's never made the playoffs. Apparently powerhouses and contenders aren't what they used to be. xrolleyesx

This was also the 2nd straight season Elon could have wrapped up the SoCon title/share of in the last conference game of the season.

[appfan2008]

IMO wofford is a member of the top... furman and gsu are still close behind... one good year (getting beat by asu and wofford doesnt help) doesnt put you in the elite... right now the programs are asu/woff/furman/gsu/then elon

[appstate1998]

Just cause GSU and The Citadel suck this year doesn't mean the conference is weak.

But hey, when you're school is playing bad, why not bring the rest of the conference down, eh?



3 of Ga Southern's 4 conference losses were by a combined 4 points. One play here or one play there and they would be a 1 conference loss them this year. I wouldn't call that a downard spiral. More like missed opportunities and close calls.

Elon beat them with a field goal with 6 seconds left. App almost handed them the game but survived. Against Wofford they did what I love teams to do and went for the win with a 2 point conversion in overtime but came up short. Yes WCU was pounding them but they never gave up and won that game.

I thought Georgia Southern games were the most exciting to watch all year. I got to see a good many since I moved from North Carolina and only live an hour from Statesboro now. So any who is saying Georgia Southern "sucks" this year needs to quit looking at the record because they played some good teams to the wire this year.

[Skjellyfetti]

This was also the 2nd straight season Elon could have wrapped up the SoCon title/share of in the last conference game of the season.

Almost winning conference championships does not make one a playoff.

Y'all are much improved, though. Your running game and defense looked great.

[appstate38]

GSU is rebuilding, it's certainly not "struggling to find its identity" anymore since we have a great coach right now who is really instilling some discipline into our team. Have you people not paid attention to anything said by us GSU posters this year? We expected this type of season more or less due to an extremely inexperienced OL and new QBs.

Since I believe your comments are directed at me, let me be a little more clear on my point. When GSU ran the spread option, it wasn't hard to figure out what you guys were known for. You had tough running backs and plenty of them. You had QB's that could throw when needed but could run that offense quite well. The defenses were always tough and hard nosed. My point is since changing the offense it seems some of those things that came with a GSU team aren't there yet or just as strong. Like I said talent is not the issue. I think it is a matter of the more you move away from the spread option and into your present schemes the easier it will be to find your identity. Prime example when the Apps moved away from the pro-I option offense into the spread there were some growing pains.

[gophoenix]

3 of Ga Southern's 4 conference losses were by a combined 4 points. One play here or one play there and they would be a 1 conference loss them this year. I wouldn't call that a downard spiral. More like missed opportunities and close calls.

Elon beat them with a field goal with 6 seconds left. App almost handed them the game but survived. Against Wofford they did what I love teams to do and went for the win with a 2 point conversion in overtime but came up short. Yes WCU was pounding them but they never gave up and won that game.

I thought Georgia Southern games were the most exciting to watch all year. I got to see a good many since I moved from North Carolina and only live an hour from Statesboro now. So any who is saying Georgia Southern "sucks" this year needs to quit looking at the record because they played some good teams to the wire this year.

xrolleyesx

Playing to the wire is still losing. Many of you people have been happy to point that out to any other team. But hey, want to take up for GSU, go ahead.

[Eaglesrus]

I don't think there is a big 3 right now. ASU clearly stands alone, UTC is clearly at the bottom and the other seven of us could just be a scramble for at least the next couple of years. Wofford and Elon obviously are the strongest contenders right now, but I don't think they've been there long enough to think it's a given that they will remain there year-in-and-year-out. I think all of the remaining 5 of us are headed in the direction to be contenders soon, though I was surprised that The Citadel hasn't done better this year and wonder what that might indicate for the next couple of years, and it's way to early to tell how much of a turn around WCU will ultimately make.

[OL FU]

The SoCon's big 3 now are App, Wofford, and Elon. NO QUESTIONS!

I sure hope and pray that Western Carolina gets there someday.:)

for this year certainly, but the big three was defined over the long term. Who knows what the future will hold. I think Wofford has proven their worth in any mention as a top team in the conference. This is not a knock on Elon because they certainly deserve their due this year and last year, but long term is not yet part of the equation. Furman earned part of that title over a 30 year period through four different coaches, etc. Time will tell but personally I think the conference in general is stronger top to bottom or at least for now the upper 2/3's of the conference. That is a good thing. It may mean that the Furman's of the world will spend a little less time in the playoffs but will be better prepared when they return to the playoffsxnodx

[phoenix3]

I don't think there is a big 3 right now. ASU clearly stands alone, UTC is clearly at the bottom and the other seven of us could just be a scramble for at least the next couple of years. Wofford and Elon obviously are the strongest contenders right now, but I don't think they've been there long enough to think it's a given that they will remain there year-in-and-year-out. I think all of the remaining 5 of us are headed in the direction to be contenders soon, though I was surprised that The Citadel hasn't done better this year and wonder what that might indicate for the next couple of years, and it's way to early to tell how much of a turn around WCU will ultimately make.

Agreed. I think that is the pivotal point. Good teams? Yes. Good programs (esp Elon) To-Be-Continued...

A lot of the program building at Elon depends on how long Lembo stays and who replaces him when he leaves.

[appstate1998]

xrolleyesx

Playing to the wire is still losing. Many of you people have been happy to point that out to any other team. But hey, want to take up for GSU, go ahead.

Losing is losing I agree. But you said they suck. I wouldn't be saying a team sucked when you only beat them by a field goal with 6 seconds to go.xrolleyesx

[elon77]

Take ASU, UTC, WCU, and the Citadel out, put the rest in a bag, shake it and which ever team comes out first could possibly be second best. Teams two through six are mighty close and they all could beat each other. Elon is too new at success to be called one of the top 3, but they are getting closer. ASU, if anyone is wondering is at the top!

[GATA]

The SoCon's big 3 now are App, Wofford, and Elon. NO QUESTIONS!

I sure hope and pray that Western Carolina gets there someday.:)

Elon gets to the playoffs for the first time in forever and now they're part of the "Big 3"?

nah...

The SOCON is:

#1 App State
#2 Wofford

...then everybody else. The other teams in the conference are all mediocre.

[ElonPride]

Elon gets to the playoffs for the first time in forever and now they're part of the "Big 3"?

nah...

The SOCON is:

#1 App State
#2 Wofford

...then everybody else. The other teams in the conference are all mediocre.


Hey, we're not there yet, don't jinx it!!!!!!xthumbsupx

[OL FU]

Hey, we're not there yet, don't jinx it!!!!!!xthumbsupx

Whatever you do, don't flame out:)

[Appinator]

Elon is a "powerhouse"? Elon is a "contender every year"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this going to be only Elon's 2nd winning season this decade? And if they lose to Liberty Elon will still be a team that's never made the playoffs. Apparently powerhouses and contenders aren't what they used to be. xrolleyesx


3rd winning season this decade.

But the points are well taken.

THEN:


Elon is not a powerhouse. The Socon is as weak as it has ever been this year.


Just cause GSU and The Citadel suck this year doesn't mean the conference is weak.

But hey, when you're school is playing bad, why not bring the rest of the conference down, eh?

Nice way to complement someone for a comment, and then put someone down for the exact same thing. How about just playing nice with the rest of the kids in the SoCon sand box for once, eh?

[OL FU]

THEN:





Nice way to complement someone for a comment, and then put someone down for the exact same thing. How about just playing nice with the rest of the kids in the SoCon sand box for once, eh?

He was replying to Sean, so it was alrightxlolx

[straightshooter]

GSU is a year away from being back on top of the SoCon. The changeover from the TO really trashed the program, but Hatcher has it moving in the right direction. Last year he didn't really run his offense, since he had an unbelievable talent in Jayson Foster. Hatcher is accustomed to leading the nation in passing as he did at VSU. In '07 GSU lead the nation in rushing because Hatcher is smart enough to use the talents of the players he has on hand.

When Hatcher was a player, his OC was Mike Leach and his HC was Hal Mumme. Look for GSU to play more of a Texas Tech style of offense in the coming years. Chapple completed passes against FU to at least eight different receivers.

Somehow GSU managed to lay an egg against Samford, but they played the now so-called Big 3 toe to toe. They could have just as easily won those three games as they lost them. The 33 freshmen that Hatcher played this season learned a lot from those experiences, and after the win at Furman last Saturday, they are ready to take that next step back to the top of the SoCon.

It looks like GSU will get QB Billy Lowe back this spring from injury. He sat out the '08 season with the injury. He is taller and faster than either Chapple or Henton, and many considered him the frontrunner to take over after Foster before his back injury late in the '07 season.

Things will change in the SoCon over the next few years. Wofford loses it lines of scrimmage after this season. App St. will lose Armanti after another year, and you can bet that will change how they do things. Players like Edwards and Foster come along once in most coach's careers, and you've got to admit that much of App State's success comes from Armanti's ad-libbing.

It appears that all of the SoCon teams are getting better. New coaches at Chatt and WCU will make a difference. You can already see the changes at WCU. Expect App St to stay up there and GSU to get back on top with them. Unless Wofford and Elon can continue to recruit the kind of OL and DL players that they currently have, look for them to slide a bit. Samford appears to be better than most people thought and El Cid wasn't as good as most expected. Furman is a mystery. They have lots of experience on the OL and DL, and they'll have to replace those quality players next season. It should be interesting.

[MasonJar]

Elon is not a powerhouse. The Socon is as weak as it has ever been this year.

I respect your opinion, and if a weak SoCon somehow gives you comfort in this time of woe for GaSouthern, I can understand. App has been on the outside (big 3, playoffs, whatever) looking in before...

But, it seems that this is the 4th year or so in a row, that toward the end of the season, we start hearing "the SoCon is weak" or "down this year" or whatever from fans of teams in our conference...

I guess the entire nation must be down if ASU can win 3 NC's in a row and contend for a 4th, and at least earn a share of the conference title for the last 4 years... Surley, there is no other reason that ASU could win, much less dominate, than the fact that everyone else sucks? The world must be on it's ear ... the only time the conference is up is when GSU or FU are in the lead xrolleyesx

As for the big 3 in the conference, there will always be a big three, but the members may change (as may the definition of big 3)... the big three choakers, whiners, etc... but as far as the true competition, who was in the running this year for the conference 3-way tie for the lead? Who can still tie ASU for the conference lead?

Yup, this year the big 3 are ASU, Wofford and Elon...

And if the conference is so weak, maybe the other posers in the conference will have a chance next year. Y'all work on it in the off season!

One final and more level headed thought... if you are talking "who are the big 3 in the SoCon since the inception of I-AA level play?" I would have to expand it to the "big 4" and say GaSouthern, ASU, Marshall and Furman. xpeacex

Check out these stats:
Championships Won
Team Championships Years
Georgia Southern 6 1985, 1986, 1989. 1990, 1999, 2000
Youngstown State 4 1991, 1993, 1994, 1997
Appalachian State 3 2005, 2006, 2007
Eastern Kentucky 2 1979, 1982
Marshall 2 1992, 1996
Montana 2 1995, 2001
Boise State 1 1980
Delaware 1 2003
Florida A&M 1 1978
Furman 1 1988

[Rob Iola]

When you talk "Big 3" or Big whatever, ya gotta have a whole legacy/dynasty thing going. GSU sucks this year, but when I think Socon I think ASU and then GSU (actually the other way around, but I've got lots of gray hairs). Kinda like Delaware, who suck even worse this year - when people talk Big in the CAA Delaware's on the list...

FWIW: Socon Big "3" is GSU then ASU then Furman/Citadel then Wofford - Elon doesn't even register...

[WOCO]

I believe the big 3 going forward will be App, Wofford and GSU. I'm not talking about the 90's or teams that are D1 now.

App is loaded with talent and they have a great coach. Because of the notoriety they have gotten over the years, they will get every FBS quality player that gets skipped over. Right now they have the old "Notre Dame" mystique. Every player wants to go there of they dont go FBS.

GSU has the Georgia recruiting base. They have unlimited talent at their doorstep and for those who don't know, football is life in Georgia. They will allways pick up tons of players that cant get a FBS ride or just want to stay home (henton for ex).

Wofford's success is System Based. They play a lot of players every game and year to year players just get more playing time. They don't really rebuild or reload. Players just take a larger role than they had the year before but the all played a lot the year before

Elon's recent success is directly a result of their QB and WR. The first three that I mentioned are situations that will remain constant. Elon is not in that situation and they have to recruit against app. I'm not sure that their coach really has control of that team either. They do some things that I know would cause Coach Ayers to Karate Kick their @$$ (and you know he is a black belt).

Furman seems to be in a state of flux. They haven't been the same since BJ left. I'm not sure that their coach can get that team where it needs to go. I have had conversations with a few furman football players that recently graduated, and they don't believe in Lamb. He's got the talent, but so did clemson and i think that is the best analogy for them right now.

[GannonFan]

3rd winning season this decade.

But the points are well taken.

I was referring to the decade we are currently in, the 2001-2010 decade (decades, like centuries, officially start on the 01 year, not the 00 year, and yes, most everybody was celebrating the millenium one year early in 2000). But yes, Elon had a winning record in '00. xthumbsupx

[OL FU]

When you talk "Big 3" or Big whatever, ya gotta have a whole legacy/dynasty thing going. GSU sucks this year, but when I think Socon I think ASU and then GSU (actually the other way around, but I've got lots of gray hairs). Kinda like Delaware, who suck even worse this year - when people talk Big in the CAA Delaware's on the list...

FWIW: Socon Big "3" is GSU then ASU then Furman/Citadel then Wofford - Elon doesn't even register...

Neither does the Citadel. FU still has more conference championships than any other member (past or present) . Given GSU their due they have only been in the conference since '93(?) and they have a good many.

[OL FU]

I believe the big 3 going forward will be App, Wofford and GSU. I'm not talking about the 90's or teams that are D1 now.

App is loaded with talent and they have a great coach. Because of the notoriety they have gotten over the years, they will get every FBS quality player that gets skipped over. Right now they have the old "Notre Dame" mystique. Every player wants to go there of they dont go FBS.

GSU has the Georgia recruiting base. They have unlimited talent at their doorstep and for those who don't know, football is life in Georgia. They will allways pick up tons of players that cant get a FBS ride or just want to stay home (henton for ex).

Wofford's success is System Based. They play a lot of players every game and year to year players just get more playing time. They don't really rebuild or reload. Players just take a larger role than they had the year before but the all played a lot the year before

Elon's recent success is directly a result of their QB and WR. The first three that I mentioned are situations that will remain constant. Elon is not in that situation and they have to recruit against app. I'm not sure that their coach really has control of that team either. They do some things that I know would cause Coach Ayers to Karate Kick their @$$ (and you know he is a black belt).

Furman seems to be in a state of flux. They haven't been the same since BJ left. I'm not sure that their coach can get that team where it needs to go. I have had conversations with a few furman football players that recently graduated, and they don't believe in Lamb. He's got the talent, but so did clemson and i think that is the best analogy for them right now.


We all have opinion and the truth is only time will tell. Lamb has taken the Paladins to more playoffs than Ayers has taken Wofford over the same period. Will he do it in the future, who knows?

Elon has as much of an opportunity as anyone to build on their success. The difference between them and Wofford is that you know your coach isn't going any where.

The Citadel has one of the best coaches in the conference. However, he certainly has more recruiting obstacles than any one else also. '

New coach at WCU, New Coach at Chatt and for most purposes new coach at GSU (who is also young and probably looking toward bigger and better things at some point).

I think there is the possibility that there will be 5 to 7 strong teams in the SoCon every year (assuming that we don't have some upward movement once divisional transfers resume). Certainly ASU would appear to have the advantage with their success and their ability to turn that success into bigger and better facilities. One would think that would translate into continued success, but the truth is it is all a guess. Few people would have thought in 2004 we might be looking at a fourth straight NC for the Mountaineers.

[JDC325]

GSU may not be any better than they were this year next year but I do not see GSU getting any worse at this point. We were one field goal away from being a co conf champ and playoff team last year and we were basically four plays away from being a top five team this year. We are on solid ground finally so while I expect some lingering rebuilding pains the gains should outweigh them from here on out. I do think Elon has made some good gains but to be honestly to a certain extent I think both Wofford and Elon are filling the void GSU has left since Baker and Vangorder destroyed our program. I really do not know what is wrong at Furman so I do not know if it is just a temporary thing or if this is a signs for things to come. I know the addition of Samford does not help them in their B-Ham pipeline neither does having to compete with a good Wofford and Elon for recruits. xtwocentsx

[appstate38]

Check out these stats:
Championships Won
Team Championships Years
Georgia Southern 6 1985, 1986, 1989. 1990, 1999, 2000
Youngstown State 4 1991, 1993, 1994, 1997
Appalachian State 3 2005, 2006, 2007
Eastern Kentucky 2 1979, 1982
Marshall 2 1992, 1996
Montana 2 1995, 2001
Boise State 1 1980
Delaware 1 2003
Florida A&M 1 1978
Furman 1 1988

Well first of all welcome to AGS!!!!! Second I didn't realize it but during the 90's FCS football was dominated by 4 teams. Except for UMass jumping in there in 98 to win it all. That is pretty amazing.

[Saint3333]

GSU will be back. Furman was the biggest disappoint to me in the conference this year. My biggest concern with Furman is the drop in attendance. Their fanbase isn't getting younger.

Many SoCon teams are young and I believe this was an average year for the conference. It should improve overall next year as the young teams are older. ASU will only lose 5 starters from this team (2 OL, 1 WR, 1 LB, 1 S) and get three starters back who were injuried the third week.

[OL FU]

GSU will be back. Furman was the biggest disappoint to me in the conference this year. My biggest concern with Furman is the drop in attendance. Their fanbase isn't getting younger.

Many SoCon teams are young and I believe this was an average year for the conference. It should improve overall next year as the young teams are older. ASU will only lose 5 starters from this team (2 OL, 1 WR, 1 LB, 1 S) and get three starters back who were injuried the third week.

The odd thing for me is that I was more disappointed in last years team than this years.

06 we were 8-3. Now I will admit that I think it was probably the weakest SoCon year except for ASU that I have seen. But that 8 -3 team spent most of the year beat up badly went 6-5 in 07 and had to win its last four games to do so. A lot of people were in a hurry to get Sorrells in the line up last year ( not bad mouthing Sorrells) but I really wasn't. Last years offense averaged 400+ yards per game and about 32 point which I think is about 50 to 60 more yards and about 6 points more than this year. The problem last year was defense which until the GSU game was non-existent.

Now to this year. It isn't unusual to suffer during a year when you change offensive and defensive strategies. We made great strides in defense (If we had played this defense last year it would have been a much different 07 season), but offensively, outside of Colgate and some of the weaker opponents we just never seem to look comfortable ( We seemed to play better against ASU, except for the turnovers, than we did many). Now is that because we went to a new offense and suffered adjusting to a new system, because we recruited an players for a different type of offense, because we knew for the first time in a long time we didn't have a QB that could run so we changed offenses. I really don't know. I do know that the offense was not any thing to write home about. If you saw the GSU game, you know like I know that we didn't pass downfield (more than 5 yards) maybe twice. I think the GSU defense played outstanding but it makes it a little easier when you know the ball isn't going past five yards from the line of scrimmage

Furman has been slow to change over the years and even with the success of the spread offenses, I am one of those that really thought our offense was not our problem. So was the offensive change a good one? Who knows? If I have a argument with Lamb it would be (hind sight being 20/20) if you were going to start throwing the ball 30- 35 times a game wouldn't do that in 2004 and 2005 when you are sitting with a Parade all american at QB. xeyebrowx I suppose we will see if the switch to the new offense works in the years to come.

Next year will be a telling year. We do lose a lot of our offensive line but our skill positions and I believe a good portion of our defense will be back. If 2009 goes in a similar direction as 2008 then it is probably time to start worrying.




Of course miracles happen and we could beat Wofford next week and although we won't be in the playoffs, we would then be 8-4 and people can talk about how much of an improvement 2008 was over 2007xlolx

[blueballs]

If I was a Furman fan the thing that would be worrying me the most is what happened this past Saturday.

With their season MOL on the line, on TV, at home, with the 1988 championship team in attendance, against their biggest rival, they did not match GSU's intensity and got whipped.

Compare the way Furman played against GSU Saturday to how GSU played against Furman in 2005 (or even both teams GSU/FU last year or 2004) in a similar scenario and you'll see what I mean.

Furman wasn't ready to get after it Saturday in the biggest game of the year and that is a big issue for me in evaluating a team's heart and its coaching staff. That doesn't bode well going forward... I'll be interested to see how Furman responds against Wofford this week.


PS: I feel terrible for Furman's TE Heddon. First his dad passing now that horrible injury, I hope God has mercy on him and all the Furman folks rally around him.

[terrierbob]

If I was a Furman fan the thing that would be worrying me the most is what happened this past Saturday.

With their season MOL on the line, on TV, at home, with the 1988 championship team in attendance, against their biggest rival, they did not match GSU's intensity and got whipped.

Compare the way Furman played against GSU Saturday to how GSU played against Furman in 2005 (or even both teams GSU/FU last year or 2004) in a similar scenario and you'll see what I mean.

Furman wasn't ready to get after it Saturday in the biggest game of the year and that is a big issue for me in evaluating a team's heart and its coaching staff. That doesn't bode well going forward... I'll be interested to see how Furman responds against Wofford this week.


PS: I feel terrible for Furman's TE Heddon. First his dad passing now that horrible injury, I hope God has mercy on him and all the Furman folks rally around him.

Prayers for him.

[LarryBoy]

I don't have a lot of hope that Furman will climb out of its (relative) mediocrity.

The '04-'05 teams were National Championship-quality (and not just because of Ingle Martin...we had great defense, great receivers, Jerome Felton, etc.). But if you talk to any Furman fan they will tell you that, from '06-'08, the talent was still there (our recruiting classes in '04, '05, '06 were considered to be some of our best ever). We've seen flashes of that talent.

However, all signs are pointing in the wrong direction. Since Johnson's departure, we've seen way too many games where we've been absolutely blasted or blasted ourselves with terrible gameplan/execution. '02 saw a 42-21 loss to GSU at home and the Miracle on the Mountain. In '03 we had the worst offense that FU fans have seen in years. In '06 we lost 40-7 to ASU and were unable to compete with Montana St. for even a second in the playoffs. In '07 Wofford beat the fool out of us on our home turf, El Cid rallied from way behind to win against an unbelievably porous defense, and a very mediocre Hofstra team shut us down convincingly. This year, Elon wins by three scores and Georgia Southern's sub-par defense handcuffs us completely in the most important game of the season. Too many bad performances to stomach...

The facilities are getting old, the administration seemingly doesn't care, the fans and students are gone, and I'm afraid that the talent will be gone, too. These players came to Furman impressed by the '04-'05 teams (and the fans' excitement surrounding those teams). There's really not much to impress any current recruits, and they'll probably turn their sights toward ASU, Wofford, or Elon.

I like Lamb, and I like our team. But we really seem to be backpedaling.

[OL FU]

If I was a Furman fan the thing that would be worrying me the most is what happened this past Saturday.

With their season MOL on the line, on TV, at home, with the 1988 championship team in attendance, against their biggest rival, they did not match GSU's intensity and got whipped.

.


It is sadly interesting that we seem to play horrible after a week off.

If memory serves me, we had a week off before the Wofford game last year and a week off before the playoff game against Montana ST the year before and both games were close to the worst that season. in 06 the App game could be said to be the worst but at least we started that game like we were there to play.

Not to steal the thread into a different direction (but since FU is part of the big three or the former big three I suppose it is somewhat in context) but I don't want to give the impression I am happy or satisfied with the last few years. I am not one of those that thinks we should be in the quarter finals every year or the NC every two or three years ( it would be nice). I just don't think it is realistic. But I certainly think we should compete for the conference championship most years and be able to make a good run at a NC every three or four years. All programs have their advantages and disadvantages. Furman is never going to draw 20,000 at a game. Student body is too small and community support is not there with Clemson. Carolina and the many other football playing schools in close proximity. The facilities need upgrading but I think the administration has made it quite clear by spending hundreds of millions on class rooms and research faciliities, that upgrading the football stadium is not a priority. and Furman's academics has always made it more difficult in recruiting ( That is not an excuse, the academics issues were around when we were winning SoCon Championships year after year). I suppose I am reacting to a lot of the BL bitching. I don't think coaching changes should ever be ruled out but I think a rash move when a coach has had success cold be disasterous. I also think before the administration thinks about coaching changes they need to take a look in the mirror and realize that if you want a top notched program you had better be willing to spend some of the bucks required for at least competitive facilities.

If the trend continues, changes should be made but I am not ready to give up on Furman's historic place in the SoCon because we didn't make the playoffs for two years in a row. We also didn't make the playoffs in 1986 or 1987. xsmiley_wix

[Reign of Terrier]

Wofford has the #1 rushing offense, the #109 passsing offense and the #78 total defense. Eventually you run into a team that can stop the run and Wofford can't do anything about it. I just don't think you can win championships with such a lopsided attack and that low of a defense ranking.

For comparison sake...

JMU = #5 rushing, #110 passing, #15 defense
App = #6 rushing, #48 passing, #72 defense

You've either got to be able to pass the ball, or have the D to stuff everyone.

When WC came to Newark in 2003, they had no shot. Delaware had already seen two option teams in Navy (#1 rushing team in I-A) and URI (#1 rushing team in I-AA) and beaten both. They were incredibly stout against the run come playoff time. SIU was a running team, the UNI game was played in bitter cold which made it a running game, WC was a running team, Colgate was a running team.... that's why UD had one of the most dominating playoffs on record.

My friend, things at Wofford have changes A LOT since we played Deleware. When we played against you guys our defense was our strong point and we ran flexbone 95% of the time on offense. Now the scheme has changed,we run shotgun most of the time, and our D hasn't really recovered in the pass game (we're great at stopping the run) since Matt Nelson, an All-American graduated. By the way we are in the top 5 in pass efficiency and many people have said what you've said and then got beat and were true believers in our offense.

Anyway, To the GSU fans I don't think GSU should have fired their coaches back in '04, they wouldn't be in this mess. It's kind of ironic that GSU hasn't made the playoffs since they quit running the option.

[OL FU]

My friend, things at Wofford have changes A LOT since we played Deleware. When we played against you guys our defense was our strong point and we ran flexbone 95% of the time on offense. Now the scheme has changed,we run shotgun most of the time, and our D hasn't really recovered in the pass game (we're great at stopping the run) since Matt Nelson, an All-American graduated. By the way we are in the top 5 in pass efficiency and many people have said what you've said and then got beat and were true believers in our offense.

Anyway, To the GSU fans I don't think GSU should have fired their coaches back in '04, they wouldn't be in this mess. It's kind of ironic that GSU hasn't made the playoffs since they quit running the option.

And don't forget, back in 03 UD had a good teamxsmiley_wix

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Elon is not a powerhouse. The Socon is as weak as it has ever been this year.

You've got to be kidding me. If Samford beats UTC tommorow it will be the second season in a row that the SoCon has 6 teams with winning seasons. You can go back as far as at least GSU's start in the SoCon in '93 and not find a SoCon with that many winning teams. Take a look at what has been happening outside of "the big 3".


Wofford has the #1 rushing offense, the #109 passsing offense and the #78 total defense. Eventually you run into a team that can stop the run and Wofford can't do anything about it. I just don't think you can win championships with such a lopsided attack and that low of a defense ranking.

The SoCon's rushing defenses aren't as bad as they look on paper, and their passing offenses are also pretty darned good. And I really don't care if Wofford's opponents' have the best rushing D in the FCS, I still think WC can score enough points to win it. I've lost track of the number of times that GSU's offense ripped apart defenses that were "too good to not stop 1-dimensional offenses". Granted WC's athletes aren't quite on par with GSU's, they do play disciplined and usually execute well. As for your '03 game with them, you guys did have a very impressive run D but Wofford was also the champion of the most pathetic SoCon probably ever since the SoCon became a IAA/FCS conferece. The '07 and '08 Wofford teams are better than that team was, and I think most SoCon fans would agree.


Since I believe your comments are directed at me, let me be a little more clear on my point. When GSU ran the spread option, it wasn't hard to figure out what you guys were known for.

You are correct about GSU, sir. Coach Hatcher has been trying to implement an "interim" offense to take us to the pass-heavy spread offense that is Hatcher's specialty. In 2007 we had the triple option personnel and we certainly didn't want to put Jayson Foster to waste so we ran a more App-like spread. This year we have been forced to use a staggering number of freshman and deal with an inexperienced OL, so trying to find another scheme to best fit our players was tough and not successful. GSU should be over its multiple personality order by next season. I suspect we will be a lot better next year. Lee Chapple seems to have GSU fans excited, me included.


I don't have a lot of hope that Furman will climb out of its (relative) mediocrity.

The '04-'05 teams were National Championship-quality (and not just because of Ingle Martin...we had great defense, great receivers, Jerome Felton, etc.). But if you talk to any Furman fan they will tell you that, from '06-'08, the talent was still there (our recruiting classes in '04, '05, '06 were considered to be some of our best ever). We've seen flashes of that talent.

Is the slump that Furman is in now really worse than Bobby Johnson's that lasted from '95 to '98?

[OL FU]

Is the slump that Furman is in now really worse than Bobby Johnson's that lasted from '95 to '98?

Yes, I think even Furman fan's (not talking about Larry boy) tend to forget that Johnson had some slow seasons before he put us back on the map.

I suppose the difference might be Johson started when the cupboard was bare, while Lamb started the year after the NC game. But I agree with what I think your point is. Things aren't great right now but in my opinion we need a year or two or three to make sure we really know the direction the program is going in. Once again, it isn't my prediction, but stranger things have happen. We could beat Wofford saturday and then 8-4 doesn't really look that bad.

[Reign of Terrier]

The '07 and '08 Wofford teams are better than that team was, and I think most SoCon fans would agree.


True but I would still love to have a defense like the '03 team. We had such a great pass D too, and we haven't had one since.

A popular thing on the Wofford board after last season is was that the '07 offense and '03 defense would be a championship winner. Now I think the "08 offense is better than last year.

[Reign of Terrier]

And don't forget, back in 03 UD had a good teamxsmiley_wix

We played a better than the runner up did (I'll take my 24-9 loss in the semis to a 40-0 loss in the "ship" anydayxsmiley_wix )

[Reign of Terrier]

It is sadly interesting that we seem to play horrible after a week off.

If memory serves me, we had a week off before the Wofford game last year and a week off before the playoff game against Montana ST the year before and both games were close to the worst that season. in 06 the App game could be said to be the worst but at least we started that game like we were there to play.

Not to steal the thread into a different direction (but since FU is part of the big three or the former big three I suppose it is somewhat in context) but I don't want to give the impression I am happy or satisfied with the last few years. I am not one of those that thinks we should be in the quarter finals every year or the NC every two or three years ( it would be nice). I just don't think it is realistic. But I certainly think we should compete for the conference championship most years and be able to make a good run at a NC every three or four years. All programs have their advantages and disadvantages. Furman is never going to draw 20,000 at a game. Student body is too small and community support is not there with Clemson. Carolina and the many other football playing schools in close proximity. The facilities need upgrading but I think the administration has made it quite clear by spending hundreds of millions on class rooms and research faciliities, that upgrading the football stadium is not a priority. and Furman's academics has always made it more difficult in recruiting ( That is not an excuse, the academics issues were around when we were winning SoCon Championships year after year). I suppose I am reacting to a lot of the BL bitching. I don't think coaching changes should ever be ruled out but I think a rash move when a coach has had success cold be disasterous. I also think before the administration thinks about coaching changes they need to take a look in the mirror and realize that if you want a top notched program you had better be willing to spend some of the bucks required for at least competitive facilities.

If the trend continues, changes should be made but I am not ready to give up on Furman's historic place in the SoCon because we didn't make the playoffs for two years in a row. We also didn't make the playoffs in 1986 or 1987. xsmiley_wix

To me a successful season is a playoff birth and 9 or 10 wins.

[OL FU]

To me a successful season is a playoff birth and 9 or 10 wins.

Congratulations on having three of themxthumbsupx xsmiley_wix

OK that was smart ass and un-called for on my part.

I think that measurement is a little high ( personally) Certainly, I want to go to the playoffs every year but for most teams not named Montana that isn't a reasonable expectation. Strange how one game can change a season, but in the unlikely event that we win saturday and 8-4 season would be successful while a 7-5 would be mediocre

[LarryBoy]

A lot of people will compare Bobby Lamb's last few years to Jimmy Satterfield's last years. Started with success, ended in a downward spiral.

Johnson inherited a sinking program, and it took a while to get it back on its feet. However, I have to wonder if Bobby Johnson would have remained had things not picked up like they did in '99.

[Reign of Terrier]

Congratulations on having three of themxthumbsupx xsmiley_wix

OK that was smart ass and un-called for on my part.

I think that measurement is a little high ( personally) Certainly, I want to go to the playoffs every year but for most teams not named Montana that isn't a reasonable expectation. Strange how one game can change a season, but in the unlikely event that we win saturday and 8-4 season would be successful while a 7-5 would be mediocre

If I'm playing 11 games 7 wins in fine, but if I'm playing 12 I want 8. When I say successfulseason I mean the team could be considered successful.

I consider a good season one when you are at least considered for the playoffs.

[OL FU]

If I'm playing 11 games 7 wins in fine, but if I'm playing 12 I want 8. When I say successfulseason I mean the team could be considered successful.

I consider a good season one when you are at least considered for the playoffs.

xthumbsupx I agree

[OL FU]

A lot of people will compare Bobby Lamb's last few years to Jimmy Satterfield's last years. Started with success, ended in a downward spiral.

Johnson inherited a sinking program, and it took a while to get it back on its feet. However, I have to wonder if Bobby Johnson would have remained had things not picked up like they did in '99.


I have thought and still think that Satterfield not getting a shot at the USC job really sank his motivation. xnodx

[OL FU]

With Wofford winning and Elon closing out the regular season last week it's now the second straight year that two of "The Big 3" in the Socon have not finished in the top three. From what I've seen on the Furman websites--they don't like Lamb as much as they did a couple years ago and one went as far as saying Ingle Martin "carried the team" before the last two years. Georgia Southern on the other hand has been in a downward spiral due to Van gorder. Me like a lot of people believe that GSU would still be an 8 or 9 win team had they kept the triple option. In other words as soon as the option left town so did GSU's championship ways.

On the other hand teams have gotten more competitive. Elon and Wofford have become power houses. The teams on the lower half of the conference are becoming more competitive too. And there's also Samford.

My question to you My Socon buddies is is there a "Big 3" anymore or are they just down on there luck? This isn't smack--the Socon is way different then it was 5 years ago.

App is still king and they really shouldn't be in this discussion.

And to answer your question, I don't think the big 3 are gone, but I do think the terminology is a thing of the past. It will be a much more crowded field over the next 4 or five years. and that is a good thingxthumbsupx

[Seven Would Be Nice]

Sounds like Bobby Lamb is Furmans "Mike Sewak". Started out with a great team given to him from the previous coach, and steadily declined and became more stagnant than anything.

A lot of people like them, but they aren't producing like you want them to. The question is that do you risk letting them go at the chance of a V** G****? Or do you let them stay longer and see if they produce results like Jerry Moore has? Maybe the coach just doens't have the right group of players? Who knows.

Coming from a GSU fan that has seen things go from OK to bad, to worse, only time will tell for you guys.

[OL FU]

Sounds like Bobby Lamb is Furmans "Mike Sewak". Started out with a great team given to him from the previous coach, and steadily declined and became more stagnant than anything.

A lot of people like them, but they aren't producing like you want them to. The question is that do you risk letting them go at the chance of a V** G****? Or do you let them stay longer and see if they produce results like Jerry Moore has? Maybe the coach just doens't have the right group of players? Who knows.

Coming from a GSU fan that has seen things go from OK to bad, to worse, only time will tell for you guys.

Understanding that the future could be different, people should also realize that Sewak is the last coach to take you to the playoffs.
xnodx


Always difficult to see in the future. :(

[PhoenixPhan06]

IMO wofford is a member of the top... furman and gsu are still close behind... one good year (getting beat by asu and wofford doesnt help) doesnt put you in the elite... right now the programs are asu/woff/furman/gsu/then elon


I agree with the ASU/Wofford rankings, but Elon Has to be ahead of Furman and GSU. If we were talking about the last five years or so, then yeah, I could see Elon behind those teams. If we're talking about NOW, I don't see anyway that Furman and GSU are better as a program that Elon.

GSU is rebuilding and everyone knows that, so maybe in a year or two we can talk about them being back up in the top tier of the SoCon. Furman over the last two years has struggled to keep up and won't be making the playoffs for the second straight year. Elon on the other hand ended last season ranked in the top 20 and have been ranked all year so far this season.

Hopefully you can clarify your thoughts on these rankings.

[OL FU]

I agree with the ASU/Wofford rankings, but Elon Has to be ahead of Furman and GSU. If we were talking about the last five years or so, then yeah, I could see Elon behind those teams. If we're talking about NOW, I don't see anyway that Furman and GSU are better as a program that Elon.

GSU is rebuilding and everyone knows that, so maybe in a year or two we can talk about them being back up in the top tier of the SoCon. Furman over the last two years has struggled to keep up and won't be making the playoffs for the second straight year. Elon on the other hand ended last season ranked in the top 20 and have been ranked all year so far this season.

Hopefully you can clarify your thoughts on these rankings.


I am going to guess that he his speaking of over a period of time. The term BIG 3 did not come into existence because of one or two years. xtwocentsx

[Rob Iola]

Sounds like Bobby Lamb is Furmans "Mike Sewak". Started out with a great team given to him from the previous coach, and steadily declined and became more stagnant than anything.

A lot of people like them, but they aren't producing like you want them to. The question is that do you risk letting them go at the chance of a V** G****? Or do you let them stay longer and see if they produce results like Jerry Moore has? Maybe the coach just doens't have the right group of players? Who knows.

Coming from a GSU fan that has seen things go from OK to bad, to worse, only time will tell for you guys.
Some Hen fans are saying the same thing about Keeler - inherited a NC worthy team from Tubby for the '03 run and then rode a freak of nature during last year's run - but otherwise he's a lousy coach. No props for replacing the Winged-T with the Spread, nor for his shooting for the moon philosophy, nor for his playoff record - simply what have you done for me lately.

The basic issue is the heightened level of competition at the FCS level coupled with the magnified importance of having a top-caliber athlete (who stays healthy) at QB, now that the Spread is the offense of choice. FBS teams have linebackers who can stop it, but the typical FCS defense can't keep up. If things don't work out for your QB, your basic power conference team is in for a long season. Sorrells is good but no Ingle Martin, so Lamb's team can only go so far this year...

[OL FU]

Some Hen fans are saying the same thing about Keeler - inherited a NC worthy team from Tubby for the '03 run and then rode a freak of nature during last year's run - but otherwise he's a lousy coach. No props for replacing the Winged-T with the Spread, nor for his shooting for the moon philosophy, nor for his playoff record - simply what have you done for me lately.

The basic issue is the heightened level of competition at the FCS level coupled with the magnified importance of having a top-caliber athlete (who stays healthy) at QB, now that the Spread is the offense of choice. FBS teams have linebackers who can stop it, but the typical FCS defense can't keep up. If things don't work out for your QB, your basic power conference team is in for a long season. Sorrells is good but no Ingle Martin, so Lamb's team can only go so far this year...


And that is an interesting perspective. My view of the spread has always been you had better have a QB that can really wing it around the field along with speedy receivers or a QB that can throw well and pick his times to run and be able to run well or even better, both.

[BestOfBreed]

Wofford has the #1 rushing offense, the #109 passsing offense and the #78 total defense. Eventually you run into a team that can stop the run and Wofford can't do anything about it. I just don't think you can win championships with such a lopsided attack and that low of a defense ranking.

For comparison sake...

JMU = #5 rushing, #110 passing, #15 defense
App = #6 rushing, #48 passing, #72 defense

You've either got to be able to pass the ball, or have the D to stuff everyone.

When WC came to Newark in 2003, they had no shot. Delaware had already seen two option teams in Navy (#1 rushing team in I-A) and URI (#1 rushing team in I-AA) and beaten both. They were incredibly stout against the run come playoff time. SIU was a running team, the UNI game was played in bitter cold which made it a running game, WC was a running team, Colgate was a running team.... that's why UD had one of the most dominating playoffs on record.

Delaware was up 10-3 at the end of the 3rd quarter in that game. No shot... are you serious??? xoopsx

[gofurman]

The SoCon's big 3 now are App, Wofford, and Elon. NO QUESTIONS!

I sure hope and pray that Western Carolina gets there someday.:)

HAVE to disagree here. That is a one year thing with Elon. ELON HAS NEVER MADE THE PLAYOFFS - EVER! They probably will this year and kudos for that but that does not a big three make. Woff is making a better case but certainly not Elon regardless of this year.

[Reign of Terrier]

HAVE to disagree here. That is a one year thing with Elon. ELON HAS NEVER MADE THE PLAYOFFS - EVER! They probably will this year and kudos for that but that does not a big three make. Woff is making a better case but certainly not Elon regardless of this year.

Well they've only been in the Socon 4 years and where they were before (The Big south) wasn't the best conference to get a playoff spot.

[GATA]

Well they've only been in the Socon 4 years and where they were before (The Big south) wasn't the best conference to get a playoff spot.

That's understandable, but Elon is NOT part of the "Big 3" The fact is they have NEVER been to the playoffs.

There is no "Big 3" anymore. From a historical perspective maybe, but the conference is clearly not App State, Furman and GSU anymore.

Like I said before. App State is on top with Wofford close behind. The two teams with the two most experienced coaches....

The middle of the pack includes...GSU, Furman, Elon, Samford, and The Citadel. There really isn't much difference between those 5 teams, however recently Elon has had the most success.

Western and UTC are hanging out at the bottom right now but I expect WCU to get better and if UTC hires Ken Sparks from Carson-Newman they will get much better very fast.

[Reign of Terrier]

That's understandable, but Elon is NOT part of the "Big 3" The fact is they have NEVER been to the playoffs.

There is no "Big 3" anymore. From a historical perspective maybe, but the conference is clearly not App State, Furman and GSU anymore.

Like I said before. App State is on top with Wofford close behind. The two teams with the two most experienced coaches....

The middle of the pack includes...GSU, Furman, Elon, Samford, and The Citadel. There really isn't much difference between those 5 teams, however recently Elon has had the most success.

Western and UTC are hanging out at the bottom right now but I expect WCU to get better and if UTC hires Ken Sparks from Carson-Newman they will get much better very fast.

The only way Elon can be considered for the Big 3 right now is in this season and last, but if they continue to improve as fast as they are improving they could be really, really good in the next few years. Just remember that they might reach the playoffs earlier than Wofford did (by a year).

[matfu]

the name "elon" and "the big 3" should not be in the same sentence. sure elon is on the rise, but the big 3 had everything to do with tradition, long term consistency etc. even wofford does not belong in that sentence but they are about to be in a similar term. i agree the big 3 now is pretty much of historical interest.

[BULLDOG8180]

Elon is a "powerhouse"? Elon is a "contender every year"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this going to be only Elon's 2nd winning season this decade? And if they lose to Liberty Elon will still be a team that's never made the playoffs. Apparently powerhouses and contenders aren't what they used to be. xrolleyesx

Agreed. Elon is NOT a member of the big three. Do they deserve credit this season? Absolutely- but they are not in the big three. Socon is the big 1......+1......+1(provided Elon beats Liberty).