NCAA: Sorry UCA, You Can Not Be Champs

[TexasTerror]

And why are we finding this out so late? The Bears are trying to be the conference champion and now they can not even be designated as such.


FRISCO, Texas – The Southland Conference has been notified by the NCAA that the league cannot award its 2008 championship to its reclassifying member Central Arkansas as planned, should the Bears finish the season in the top position of the league’s standings.

By awarding a championship to UCA, or any declaration or reference by the Southland that the institution is the conference champion, the NCAA will revoke the league’s automatic qualification (AQ) into the Division I Football Championship.

As a reclassifying NCAA member moving from Division II to I, Central Arkansas is in the midst of a four-year transition period that, among other things, prohibits its sports programs from participating in NCAA Championships. Once the university completes the transition, its programs are scheduled to have full NCAA DI Championships access beginning in the fall of 2010.

http://www.southland.org/ViewArticle.dbml?temp_site=NO&DB_OEM_ID=18400&ATCLID=1622460

UCA Fan Feedback: http://www.ucafans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3690
UCA Release: http://www.ucasports.com/sport.asp?action=news&sportid=1&article=2759

[AZJack]

We've been over this a hundred times already with NDSU, would have been a top seed the past couple years if they had been elgible for the playoffs.

[Khan4Cats]

What does that mean for the Great West Conference and the titles that SDSU and NDSU won the past few years?

I realize that the don't have an AQ, is that the only difference.

[dbackjon]

What does that mean for the Great West Conference and the titles that SDSU and NDSU won the past few years?

I realize that the don't have an AQ, is that the only difference.

yes, that would be the difference

[dbackjon]

And why are we finding this out so late? The Bears are trying to be the conference champion and now they can not even be designated as such.



http://www.southland.org/ViewArticle.dbml?temp_site=NO&DB_OEM_ID=18400&ATCLID=1622460

UCA Fan Feedback: http://www.ucafans.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3690
UCA Release: http://www.ucasports.com/sport.asp?action=news&sportid=1&article=2759

Not sure why anyone is suprised at this...

[Syntax Error]

Should have known better. SLC tried to ram through UCA ahead of the mandated transition period too.
31.3.4.1 Requirements -- Division Championship.
To be eligible for automatic qualification in a Division Championship, a member conference must meet the following requirements: (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)

(a) Conference competition must be conducted in the applicable sport and the conference champion in that sport must be determined not later than the date on which participants are selected for the NCAA championship, either by regular in-season conference competition or a conference meet or tournament, as indicated at the time of application. If a conference's competition to determine its automatic qualifier is unexpectedly terminated (e.g., due to inclement weather), the conference may designate its qualifier, provided it has established objective criteria for making that designation and has communicated that information to the appropriate sports committee by a specified deadline. (Revised: 8/13/93)

(b) In the event of a tie for the conference championship, the conference shall have the responsibility of determining which team or individual shall represent the conference in NCAA competition. If a play-off is held, such competition shall be considered conference competition, not NCAA competition.

(c) In sports other than championship subdivision football, a conference may establish subdivisions and conduct competition within each subdivision to determine a conference champion, as long as each subdivision consists of at least four members. Conferences with subdivisions of four members must conduct double round-robin competition within each subdivision, plus a postseason tournament, to determine their champion. Conferences with subdivisions of five or more members may conduct either single or double round-robin competition within each subdivision, plus a postseason tournament to determine their champion. (Note: This regulation does not apply to Division I men's or women's basketball. In those sports, a conference may conduct either double round-robin, in-season competition, or a minimum of 14 conference games in order to determine its champion.) (Revised: 12/9/91, 10/18/95, 10/27/98, 12/15/06)

(d) In championship subdivision football, football-playing conferences that subdivide into five or more teams are required to conduct a single round-robin competition within each division and develop a formula for determination of the conference champion, which must be approved by the Division I Football Championship Committee prior to the start of the season. A postseason championship game is not required. (Adopted: 10/27/98, Revised: 12/15/06)

(e) The conference must maintain and actively enforce compliance with eligibility rules at least as stringent as those in Bylaw 14 applicable to its members. The use of an ineligible player by a team in a conference that has been granted automatic qualification may result in the involved team being denied the right to be the automatic entry in the NCAA championship. The governing sports committee may recommend loss of the automatic-qualification privilege for the conference during the season in which the violation occurred or for a future championship.

(f) All eligible member institutions must agree to participate in the appropriate NCAA championship. If a conference champion is ineligible to compete, declines to compete or cannot compete for any reason, automatic qualification shall be withdrawn for that year and the remaining conference members shall be considered at large. Automatic qualification for a conference shall not be withdrawn if a conference champion declines to compete in an NCAA championship for reasons related to written religious policies against competition on certain days. Under such circumstances, the conference's second-place team (as determined by the conference), shall receive the automatic bid to the NCAA championship. (Revised: 4/20/99)

(g) All institutions may hold membership in only that conference in the sport in which automatic qualification is sought and may participate in only that conference's process to determine the automatic qualifier. (Adopted: 12/5/94)

[TexasTerror]

Guys -- read the release!

We are talking about conference championships and not playoff bids. UCA and the SLC knew they could not get a playoff bid. Guessing we overlooked the provision that was mentioned above by SE.

I'm surprised we just found out about this now. UCA was competing for the SLC title until the final week last year. Why'd we not know then?

[danefan]

Do it SLC I beg you!

If the AQ was withdrawn would another conference get one (the other conference being the only one eligible - the NEC)?

[tingly]

They can be designated champions if the conference is ok with losing the AQ spot. They're still playing for first place even if they don't get the banner.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What a mess.

What happens if the UCA website calls themselves "SLC Champs"? Does the SLC lose the autobid?

What happens to the UCA athletes? Can they get rings saying they're SLC champs? If they do, does the SLC lose the autobid?

UCA was basically guaranteed to be at least a "paper champion" of the SLC unless they lose their last two "conference" games. Now, after playing all year for the goal of being SLC champions, the NCAA in effect has taken this away from them.

Now everyone has to go through all the SLC games and eliminate the UCA "conference wins" in the mix, am I right? Those UCA wins/losses now are considered D-I wins, not "conference" anything. Or am I misinterpreting something?

Fault lies with the SLC with not doing their homework on this, but for the NCAA to wait until two weeks left to deliver the news is simply shameful, and IMO shows no respect for the UCA athletes.

[Syntax Error]

... Guessing we overlooked the provision... I'm surprised we just found out about this now. UCA was competing for the SLC title until the final week last year. Why'd we not know then?Maybe the SLC thought they had a waiver, or more likely, were just being stubborn.

[Syntax Error]

... Fault lies with the SLC with not doing their homework on this, but for the NCAA to wait until two weeks left to deliver the news is simply shameful, and IMO shows no respect for the UCA athletes.The NCAA provision was made in 1999! Why are they to blame AT ALL? It is the SLC's planned non-compliance that is the problem.

[UAalum72]

UCA can call themselves whatever they want, but the conference won't designate them eligible to be their champion.

This happens in basketball with transition teams as well. The games count, they're conference members, but the team doesn't have access to an autobid.

[dbackjon]

Guys -- read the release!

We are talking about conference championships and not playoff bids. UCA and the SLC knew they could not get a playoff bid. Guessing we overlooked the provision that was mentioned above by SE.

I'm surprised we just found out about this now. UCA was competing for the SLC title until the final week last year. Why'd we not know then?

(f) All eligible member institutions must agree to participate in the appropriate NCAA championship. If a conference champion is ineligible to compete, declines to compete or cannot compete for any reason, automatic qualification shall be withdrawn for that year and the remaining conference members shall be considered at large. Automatic qualification for a conference shall not be withdrawn if a conference champion declines to compete in an NCAA championship for reasons related to written religious policies against competition on certain days. Under such circumstances, the conference's second-place team (as determined by the conference), shall receive the automatic bid to the NCAA championship. (Revised: 4/20/99)

[DSUrocks07]

Personally I think that the SLC should give UCA the conference title regardless if they are deemed "eligible" or not. It would go a long way towards conference unity and would really make UCA feel a part of the Southland. They did bring this on themselves however by rushing them into the conference as such. But I feel like this would sound a lot better to reward your conference champion no matter who it is than to send say a McNeese or Texas State or Northwestern who would be viewed as an at-large either way. No offense to either of those schools, but if they want to go and cry about "wanting to making the playoffs", you should have played better and beaten UCA when you had the opportunity. (McNeese still has a chance to do so on the 22nd, but the advice is the same.)

[Syntax Error]

... Guessing we overlooked the provision that was mentioned above by SE...
(f) All eligible member institutions...Yes, that is what I posted. xcoffeex

[tingly]

The NCAA being shameful would be if they knew that SLC was screwing up but waited until now to educate them. SLC are made up of literate adults. NCAA assumes, as they should, that SLC and its members can read and understand the bylaws.

[89Hen]

Do it SLC I beg you!

If the AQ was withdrawn would another conference get one (the other conference being the only one eligible - the NEC)?
Only if they applied for one. xeyebrowx

[appfan2008]

I dont see much of a problem for the slc to say that uca is there winner but everyone (NCAA, SLC, UCA) knows that uca is not going to the playoffs... how does that hurt anyone???

[Lehigh Football Nation]

(f) All eligible member institutions must agree to participate in the appropriate NCAA championship. If a conference champion is ineligible to compete, declines to compete or cannot compete for any reason, automatic qualification shall be withdrawn for that year and the remaining conference members shall be considered at large. Automatic qualification for a conference shall not be withdrawn if a conference champion declines to compete in an NCAA championship for reasons related to written religious policies against competition on certain days. Under such circumstances, the conference's second-place team (as determined by the conference), shall receive the automatic bid to the NCAA championship. (Revised: 4/20/99)

That means they could, if they so chose, revoke their autobid for the year but still get an autobid next year.

If they chose to "honor" UCA as being the SLC champs, then it would prevent a 3 loss champion (McNeese is the only school that could do that) or (more likely) a 4 loss champion from making the field (since McNeese has already lost to two league teams and hasn't played UCA yet).

Importantly, NO SLC team can qualify for an at-large bid (McNeese played 2 non-D-I teams and can't get more than 6 D-I wins.)

If they do choose to vacate the autobid - IMO, unlikely - it would go to a ninth at-large team, likely a CAA team, but quite possibly a team like Lafayette.

[TexasTerror]

I dont see much of a problem for the slc to say that uca is there winner but everyone (NCAA, SLC, UCA) knows that uca is not going to the playoffs... how does that hurt anyone???

Exactly! xnodx

There's at least one school that we all know would blow this one out of proportions if they "stumble" into the title despite a 42-6 loss to this same UCA team this past weekend. xnonono2x

[Syntax Error]

I wish I knew how to look that part up when it was proposed to read the rationale.

[slycat]

That means they could, if they so chose, revoke their autobid for the year but still get an autobid next year.

If they chose to "honor" UCA as being the SLC champs, then it would prevent a 3 loss champion (McNeese is the only school that could do that) or (more likely) a 4 loss champion from making the field (since McNeese has already lost to two league teams and hasn't played UCA yet).

Importantly, NO SLC team can qualify for an at-large bid (McNeese played 2 non-D-I teams and can't get more than 6 D-I wins.)

If they do choose to vacate the autobid - IMO, unlikely - it would go to a ninth at-large team, likely a CAA team, but quite possibly a team like Lafayette.

Texas St has 5 D-I wins. If they win out they will have 7.

[danefan]

I wish I knew how to look that part up when it was proposed to read the rationale.

Wouldn't you assume the rationale was to not have second place teams being granted the AQ?

Isn't the AQ intended to be a reward for winning the conference championship? Awarding the AQ to the second place team defeats the purpose of the AQ. Anyone not a conference champion has to make the playoffs via the at-large criteria.

The NCAA leaves it up to the conferences to award their championship in whatever means they see fit (e.g. coin toss CAA champ last year etc...). However the conference champ of an AQ league must be eligible to enter the playoffs using the AQ.

[slycat]

That will be some true BS if the SLC isn't awarded a auto bid.

[danefan]

That will be some true BS if the SLC isn't awarded a auto bid.

Why is that BS? The rule isn't new, its 9 years on the books!

[slycat]

Why is that BS? The rule isn't new, its 9 years on the books!

Which is why your point about not awarding UCA a title makes sense. If you award the title to the runner up then they are the champs and get the bid. The SLC would rater have the exposure and money from a playoff game then not send anyone.

[danefan]

Which is why your point about not awarding UCA a title makes sense. If you award the title to the runner up then they are the champs and get the bid. The SLC would rater have the exposure and money from a playoff game then not send anyone.

But they have that ability - just declare UCA ineligible for the conference championship. All settled and the SLC retains its auto-bid.

[Syntax Error]

Yeah, UCA hasn't clinched 1st place anyways........ yet

[Pitz]

Does this mean Northwestern St. is currently atop the SLC standings since their loss to UCA no longer counts in their conference record?

I got lost somewhere in the bylaws and varying replies, so please correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Does this mean Northwestern St. is currently atop the SLC standings since their loss to UCA no longer counts in their conference record?

I got lost somewhere in the bylaws and varying replies, so please correct me if I'm mistaken.

This is how I would interpret it. Though I think something should be clarified about it from the SLC conference office.

[TexasTerror]

SLC standings if you were to discount UCA. I do not believe they are going to remove the UCA results from this year or last year's standings.

Northwestern State 3-1
Texas State 3-1
McNeese State 3-2
Sam Houston State 2-2
Stephen F. Austin 2-3
Nicholls State 1-3
Southeastern Louisiana 1-3

[BEAR]

Alright, here's a UCA fans perspective.

1. UCA didn't qualify for the playoffs due to transition.
2. A rule on the books says they can be conference champions, but it would take away the AQ from the conference.
3. The only reason these kids play the game is to be champions...of something.
4. The championship isn't for the school, it's for the players and coaches, but especially the players who have nothing left to play for.
5. The SLC has been very kind to UCA in their transition, but UCA has also brought quite a bit to the table in football since they were accepted. (Coference title runner-ups last year, possible conference champs this year, some good NFL prospects, facitlities, rep etc)

Now the team must learn that the conference title, the only thing they had left to play for (with the impression last year of a title), is gone. No playoffs. No title, even if you have the best record in the conference.

Two possible things can be done.

1. SLC gives up the AQ and gives UCA the title (if they earn it).
2. UCA accepts the NCAA rule and the decision by the SLC not to be allowed the title of conference champs. (if they earn it)

As a fan....i'm pissed that this wasn't even a factor last year in the McNeese game. I'm sad for the players. I feel even sorrier for the Lumberjacks this weekend. But as a transitioning team, what can you do. We've proved we belong. Now it's up to the conference to show we belong or us to accept that we're just not there yet. xlolx

I guess what will be strange is if the second place team puts the rings on their fingers..

[TheValleyRaider]

What if the SLC were to declare UCA and whoever else finishes atop the League to be Co-Champs? Give UCA a trophy, let them celebrate and buy rings and what-not, and also declare that NWState (for example) won the conference and gets the autobid. Or is that too convoluted?

[BEAR]

What if the SLC were to declare UCA and whoever else finishes atop the League to be Co-Champs? Give UCA a trophy, let them celebrate and buy rings and what-not, and also declare that NWState (for example) won the conference and gets the autobid. Or is that too convoluted?


I think if UCA wins Saturday and even if they lose to McNeese on the 22nd, they would be conference champs or co-champs with a McNeese loss. I believe that the UCA Athletic department will get them rings and a banner and UNOFFICIALLY call them champs. I have heard that the other schools ADs have said that if UCA happens to win the conference that they will recognize them as conference champs UNOFFICIALLY. Token, yes. But the goal was to be champions of something. xthumbsupx

[I-AA Fan]

And why are we finding this out so late? The Bears are trying to be the conference champion and now they can not even be designated as such.

Not to belabor the issue, but you should have known this already. The NCAA was just helping the conference out, as it heard that the SLC was possibly doing so. It makes it easier to pass the blame.

[McNeese72]

Personally I think that the SLC should give UCA the conference title regardless if they are deemed "eligible" or not. It would go a long way towards conference unity and would really make UCA feel a part of the Southland. They did bring this on themselves however by rushing them into the conference as such. But I feel like this would sound a lot better to reward your conference champion no matter who it is than to send say a McNeese or Texas State or Northwestern who would be viewed as an at-large either way. No offense to either of those schools, but if they want to go and cry about "wanting to making the playoffs", you should have played better and beaten UCA when you had the opportunity. (McNeese still has a chance to do so on the 22nd, but the advice is the same.)

If all the UCA games count, if McNeese wins out, Texas St. loses a game, UCA wins this week but loses next week to McNeese, then McNeese would have been co-champs with UCA but would have gotten the auto-bid due to the head to head tie breaker with UCA (even if they had been eligible for the autobid). Same scenario and Texas St wins out, you'd have a three way tie for first. With UCA not eligible for the playoffs, Texas St would have the tiebreaker over McNeese and get the autobid. If UCA was eligible in that scenario, UCA would get the bid because of the Southland's stupid "who hasn't been to the playoffs the longest" rule.

Doc

[ccd494]

Solution:

At the conclusion of this season, the SLC names Northwestern St. or whoever comes in second as their "champion." Northwestern St. loses in the playoffs. The SLC retroactively designates UCA as their "champion." The NCAA has no recourse.

[danefan]

Solution:

At the conclusion of this season, the SLC names Northwestern St. or whoever comes in second as their "champion." Northwestern St. loses in the playoffs. The SLC retroactively designates UCA as their "champion." The NCAA has no recourse.

Unless they somehow punish the SLC for willful disregard of the rules. Blatantly usurping a rule will likely carry some consequence, you would think.

[McNeese72]

Importantly, NO SLC team can qualify for an at-large bid (McNeese played 2 non-D-I teams and can't get more than 6 D-I wins.)




How would McNeese not have 6 D-I wins if McNeese wins out? We would end up with an 8-3 record with two of the wins being non Div-1. My math tells me the other 6 wins were Div-1, right?

Doc

[danefan]

How would McNeese not have 6 D-I wins if McNeese wins out? We would end up with an 8-3 record with two of the wins being non Div-1. My math tells me the other 6 wins were Div-1, right?

Doc

7 DI wins is the guideline. He's saying that McNeese could only get 6 wins.

[McNeese72]

7 DI wins is the guideline. He's saying that McNeese could only get 6 wins.

My bad. I misread what he said.

As long as the games played against UCA count, McNeese can still win, at least, a co-championship and the autobid outright, if they win out and if Texas St. loses a game.

Doc

[RabidRabbit]

My bad. I misread what he said.

As long as the games played against UCA count, McNeese can still win, at least, a co-championship and the autobid outright, if they win out and if Texas St. loses a game.

Doc

If UCA is removed from the conference standings, and is an independent for purposes of the auto-bid, does that qualify?

If TxST & McNeese tie, wouldn't TxSt get the tie breaker, beating MSU head-to-head?

[UCABEARS75]

OK, here is my take:

We knew we were not eligible for post-season play from the beginning;

SLC should have read the rules better before saying we could compete for championship;

Honest mistake, the SLC has been very, very good to us in the process, even going so far as to petition the NCAA to shorten the transitional period;

Kids can not take trophies or banners with them anyway;

Kids are playing for rings, trust me, if we win it on the field the kids will get rings noting their trememdous accomplishments for the 2008 football season (I bought a few for the 2005 GSC conference champs as that conference did not provied rings, I will buy more this time if earned).

NCAA HAS DONE STUPID THINGS BEFORE, AND WILL AGAIN.

[UCAFoundingFather]

I really don't understand why this statement wasn't issued last year? UCA played at McNeese St the last weekend of the season for the conference title. The trophy was there, on the sideline, and presented to McNeese after the game. Had UCA won it would have been presented to them. Did no one from the NCAA know what was taking place? Did it take them THIS long to figure it out????

It is completely ridiculous to ban a conference from regcognizing its true champions, even if that team is not eligible for a National Championship. Amazing. The NCAA is so screwed up.

xmadx xmadx xmadx xmadx xmadx xmadx xmadx xmadx xmadx xmadx

[McNeese75]

Does this mean Northwestern St. is currently atop the SLC standings since their loss to UCA no longer counts in their conference record?

I got lost somewhere in the bylaws and varying replies, so please correct me if I'm mistaken.

No, the UCA games count in the conference race but they are not eligible for the championship.

[McNeese72]

If UCA is removed from the conference standings, and is an independent for purposes of the auto-bid, does that qualify?

If TxST & McNeese tie, wouldn't TxSt get the tie breaker, beating MSU head-to-head?

To the answer the last question, yes, because UCA is ineligible for the autobid. If UCA was eligible this season (and they are not) it would go to the three way tie breaker scenario. That's why I said McNeese has to win out and Texas St lose one of its last two games for McNeese to get the autobid.

Doc

[McNeese72]

SLC standings if you were to discount UCA. I do not believe they are going to remove the UCA results from this year or last year's standings.

Northwestern State 3-1
Texas State 3-1
McNeese State 3-2
Sam Houston State 2-2
Stephen F. Austin 2-3
Nicholls State 1-3
Southeastern Louisiana 1-3

Conference office was contacted, the question was asked, and the answer was that all of the UCA game results count toward the conference standings.

Doc

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Questions were asked and all of the UCA game results count toward the conference standings.

Doc

WTF? That means it would almost certainly mean that it would go to that "the team that hasn't been in the playoffs the longest" rule!

Sweet Mercy... that gives a path for a team to make the playoffs with THREE conference losses! xeekx xeekx xeekx

You thought 5-6 couldn't keep you out of the playoffs? Think again!

If SFA wins out, McNeese beats N'western State, McNeese loses to UCA, and Texas State loses to Nicholls State - 5-6 SFA makes the playoffs, since the FIVE other teams in the SIX-way tie for second place (McNeese State, Nicholls State, SHSU, Texas State, Northwestern State) have ALL been to the playoffs before the Lumberjacks!!!!!

And that's all thanks to UCA's wins counting in the conference standings!

Could you see this happening? I certainly can.

[DSUrocks07]

WTF? That means it would almost certainly mean that it would go to that "the team that hasn't been in the playoffs the longest" rule!

Sweet Mercy... that gives a path for a team to make the playoffs with THREE conference losses! xeekx xeekx xeekx

You thought 5-6 couldn't keep you out of the playoffs? Think again!

If SFA wins out, McNeese beats N'western State, McNeese loses to UCA, and Texas State loses to Nicholls State - 5-6 SFA makes the playoffs, since the FIVE other teams in the SIX-way tie for second place (McNeese State, Nicholls State, SHSU, Texas State, Northwestern State) have ALL been to the playoffs before the Lumberjacks!!!!!

And that's all thanks to UCA's wins counting in the conference standings!

Could you see this happening? I certainly can.

That would be a cluster****. Would other conferences petition for a ninth at-large bid in this scenario?

[danefan]

That would be a cluster****. Would other conferences petition for a ninth at-large bid in this scenario?

Maybe the NEC should petition for the 8th AQ instead.....xrolleyesx (not likely, but you never know)

Man, how weird could Selection Sunday to be. xconfusedx

[UMass922]

WTF? That means it would almost certainly mean that it would go to that "the team that hasn't been in the playoffs the longest" rule!

Sweet Mercy... that gives a path for a team to make the playoffs with THREE conference losses! xeekx xeekx xeekx

You thought 5-6 couldn't keep you out of the playoffs? Think again!

If SFA wins out, McNeese beats N'western State, McNeese loses to UCA, and Texas State loses to Nicholls State - 5-6 SFA makes the playoffs, since the FIVE other teams in the SIX-way tie for second place (McNeese State, Nicholls State, SHSU, Texas State, Northwestern State) have ALL been to the playoffs before the Lumberjacks!!!!!

And that's all thanks to UCA's wins counting in the conference standings!

Could you see this happening? I certainly can.

Now that's a "thermonuclear scenario"! (to borrow your phrase from the CAA playoff thread.)

[McNeese72]

WTF? That means it would almost certainly mean that it would go to that "the team that hasn't been in the playoffs the longest" rule!

Sweet Mercy... that gives a path for a team to make the playoffs with THREE conference losses! xeekx xeekx xeekx

You thought 5-6 couldn't keep you out of the playoffs? Think again!

If SFA wins out, McNeese beats N'western State, McNeese loses to UCA, and Texas State loses to Nicholls State - 5-6 SFA makes the playoffs, since the FIVE other teams in the SIX-way tie for second place (McNeese State, Nicholls State, SHSU, Texas State, Northwestern State) have ALL been to the playoffs before the Lumberjacks!!!!!

And that's all thanks to UCA's wins counting in the conference standings!

Could you see this happening? I certainly can.

First, I think you need to go look at the standings and then look at who plays who in the last two weeks. Your six way tie scenario can't happen.

Second, if SFA wins their last two games, they would be 6-6 not 5-6.

Doc

[BEAR]

What I don't understand is that the wins against UCA would count toward division I wins for the playoffs for the teams, but UCA doesn't count toward their own conference. Kinda like "we'll use you and give you nothing in return". If UCA counts toward thier conference standings...then let them count toward their championship standings. xmadx

[JohnStOnge]

How would McNeese not have 6 D-I wins if McNeese wins out? We would end up with an 8-3 record with two of the wins being non Div-1. My math tells me the other 6 wins were Div-1, right?

Doc


I think he's saying that they can't get MORE than 6 D-1 wins. And the "guideline" is that you have to have at least 7 to get an at large.

I think Texas State is going to lose to Nicholls State and McNeese is going to win out anyway so all this will be moot anyway. At least that's what I'm hoping.

[BEAR]

Solution:

At the conclusion of this season, the SLC names Northwestern St. or whoever comes in second as their "champion." Northwestern St. loses in the playoffs. The SLC retroactively designates UCA as their "champion." The NCAA has no recourse.

As a former resident of the great state of Maine, only a black bear from the moose mecca of the north could think of that great idea! I looooooove that idea! xlolx

[NSUDemon98]

Exactly! xnodx

There's at least one school that we all know would blow this one out of proportions if they "stumble" into the title despite a 42-6 loss to this same UCA team this past weekend. xnonono2x

Wow...can't say I'm surprised b/c it is TexasTerror...but you decide to come trash NSU on our own forum, for no reason...and then you make sure to make the same type of uncalled for remark here, for no reason...xnonono2x xnonono2x

When you get on a kick of hating a school(i.e. all HBCUs) you really HATE a school.xnonono2x

This is f-cking stupid...wait for the season to end and UCA to be atop the W/L column before you start passing judgment on our athletic administration and entire fan base. xnonono2x

[MaxBaer]

[f]Automatic qualification for a conference shall not be withdrawn if a conference champion declines to compete in an NCAA championship for reasons related to written religious policies against competition on certain days. Under such circumstances, the conference's second-place team (as determined by the conference), shall receive the automatic bid to the NCAA championship. (Revised: 4/20/99)


OK so after UCA wins the conference championship and is declared Conference Champion
1) The UCA Board drafts a policy saying that UCA declines to compete in the playoffs for religious reasons.
2) The SLC designates the second-place team to represent the conference in the playoffs.
3) The automatic bid is not forfeited.

Call the Preacher!!!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

First, I think you need to go look at the standings and then look at who plays who in the last two weeks. Your six way tie scenario can't happen.

Second, if SFA wins their last two games, they would be 6-6 not 5-6.

Doc

True, but SFA would be in the mix with however many 3-loss teams there are... and they own the tiebreaker.

And while they would be 6-6, they would only have FOUR D-I wins (they've already beaten Nicholls and SeLa, their ONLY two D-I wins so far this year). They'd have to beat UCA this weekend (who is a transitional D-I team, obviously) and Northwestern State. Matter of fact, they'd have a 3-5 record against teams eligible for the FCS playoffs.

xlolx

[buckp]

I knew they couldn't go to the playoffs, but the Bears can't even be recognized as SLC Champs if they win the conference? Doesn't seem right....xsmhx

From The Lake Charles American Press 11/12/08:

League would lose automatic FCS playoff bid if Bears receive trophy!

BY ALEX HICKEY
AMERICAN PRESS


"McNeese State might end the season with another Southland Conference football championship trophy in its case without having to share.
On Tuesday, the Southland Conference announced that Central Arkansas is ineligible to qualify for the title. The Bears (8-2, 4-1 SLC) were already out of the playoff picture because they are in the midst of transitioning to Division I from Division II, but were still assumed to be eligible for recognition for the conference.
However, the NCAA informed league Commissioner Tom Burnett that if Central Arkansas was presented with a trophy for winning the conference, the Southland would be forced to forfeit its automatic bid into the Football Championship Subdivision playoffs...."


(Cannot post link....sorry.)

[Dallas Demon]

Wow...can't say I'm surprised b/c it is TexasTerror...but you decide to come trash NSU on our own forum, for no reason...and then you make sure to make the same type of uncalled for remark here, for no reason...xnonono2x xnonono2x

When you get on a kick of hating a school(i.e. all HBCUs) you really HATE a school.xnonono2x

This is f-cking stupid...wait for the season to end and UCA to be atop the W/L column before you start passing judgment on our athletic administration and entire fan base. xnonono2x

TT is on a mission to smear the Northwestern St. name (I've also noticed this about all HBCUs too) - I'm not sure why, but it is evident. xconfusedx

[Thumper 76]

That just sucks for UCA, I mean why the heck can't the auto just go to the number two team and still count UCA as conf. champs? thats just a shame IMO xsmhx

[danefan]

See http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52186

There are valid reasons for this rule.

[Appguy]

I wish they would get rid of this 4 year rule. I can see maybe 1, but they deserve to be there as much as anyone, as did NDSU the past few years, now the players that could take them there have come and gone, just like UCA QB.

[buckp]

See http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52186

There are valid reasons for this rule.


Oh, sorry....didn't see TT's thread. :o

[buckp]

I wish they would get rid of this 4 year rule. I can see maybe 1, but they deserve to be there as much as anyone, as did NDSU the past few years, now the players that could take them there have come and gone, just like UCA QB.

Maybe put a clause in the rules that states: If an 'upcomimg team' wins its conference during the 4 year rule, the team is allowed to take the conference title and erase the remaining years from ineligibility thus allowing them to compete for the conference and participate in the playoffs the following year....xthumbsupx

[yosef1969]

Central Arkansas will likely win the Southland but since they are transitional they aren't eligible for the playoffs. The second place team (McNeese St, Texas St, or Northwestern St) will receive the auto bid if Central Arkansas does claim the league title.

Here's the question, as a matter of principle if the winner of your conference is ineligible for the playoffs shouldn't your league forfeit its auto bid?

[danefan]

Central Arkansas will likely win the Southland but since they are transitional they aren't eligible for the playoffs. The second place team (McNeese St, Texas St, or Northwestern St) will receive the auto bid if Central Arkansas does claim the league title.

Here's the question, as a matter of principle if the winner of your conference is ineligible for the playoffs shouldn't your league forfeit its auto bid?

Please see: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52186

UCA cannot be the conference champs.

Your question is actually an NCAA bylaw.

EDIT: Mods have combined these threads. That's why this post is linking to this thread.

[yosef1969]

Please see: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52186

UCA cannot be the conference champs.

Your question is actually an NCAA bylaw.

Oops. I didn't see the other thread. I was just reading Coulson's article on TSN and it seemed crazy that the second place team would get the autobid.

It still does actually. A second place team whether recognized as such or not, should not be awarded the the AQ. IF UCA wins the Southland (figurativelly speaking) the conference should recognize it and forfeit it's autobid. If you can't beat the transitional team for the title you don't deserve the AQ.

[McNeese75]

I wish they would get rid of this 4 year rule. I can see maybe 1, but they deserve to be there as much as anyone, as did NDSU the past few years, now the players that could take them there have come and gone, just like UCA QB.

Easy fix, after 1 year, all players who are not FCS eligible are off the team and forfeit their scholarships so the coaching staff can fill those spots with qualifiers. That seems fair doesn't it? xrotatehx

[UCABEARS75]

Easy fix, after 1 year, all players who are not FCS eligible are off the team and forfeit their scholarships so the coaching staff can fill those spots with qualifiers. That seems fair doesn't it? xrotatehx

I might go with two years. Give them time to (1) finish their eligibility or (2) find good fit for transfer.

[Purple Pride]

Oops. I didn't see the other thread. I was just reading Coulson's article on TSN and it seemed crazy that the second place team would get the autobid.

It still does actually. A second place team whether recognized as such or not, should not be awarded the the AQ. IF UCA wins the Southland (figurativelly speaking) the conference should recognize it and forfeit it's autobid. If you can't beat the transitional team for the title you don't deserve the AQ.

I agree with you 100%.

The SLC would only lose the AQ for this year, the others would be eligible for an at large, and it would be the honorable thing to do seeing as how they (SLC) deceived UCA into believing they were eligible for a conference championship from the very beginning.

[Syntax Error]

... they (SLC) deceived UCA into believing they were eligible for a conference championship from the very beginning.I am sure UCA has a copy of the NCAA bylaws. xrulesx

[Libertine]

The SLC would only lose the AQ for this year, the others would be eligible for an at large, and it would be the honorable thing to do seeing as how they (SLC) deceived UCA into believing they were eligible for a conference championship from the very beginning.

Currently, Texas St is the only team in the Southland that still has a shot at getting an at-large.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They can only qualify as an at-large if they win out as does Northwestern State. In that case, N'Western State and Texas State would be tied with 2 division losses, but N'Western State would win since they beat them head-to-head.

If McNeese beats N'Western State this weekend, the Bobcats hold the tiebreaker over McNeese due to their head-to-head win.

As an at-large candidate, they are very, very weak. Wins over NoCo and Texas Southern aren't likely to help their cause, not to mention that they'd have just 7 D-I wins and an 8-4 record. IMO, a 9-2 Lafayette team would be much better positioned to get that at-large bid.

[appstate1998]

no matter what they decide someone is going to be unhappy...but can we all at least agree regardless who represents the SLC will be making a quick exit xwhistlex

[Retro]

First let me say something in regard to an earlier post.. The SLC did not plan to non-comply with the NCAA rule regarding the conference champ/AQ rule.. They simply thought the 2nd best team would get the AQ in it's place.. There was no intent to break the rules as some would suggest... This issue hasn't come into play before, so thus the confusion..

That being said, if UCA were to win out and win the SLC title and awarded it, it would be a shame on behalf of all conference members if there were not a conference representative in the playoffs.. It's bad enough in the past that we rarely get 2 teams because of poor OOC play among many members..

If Mcneese and Texas State win out, which is very possible, Texas state is champ and Mcneese would be 8-3 with 6 D-I wins, however i still believe they will be a strong At Large candidate taking into consideration the hurricane game cancellation and their overall performance. This is of course dependent on how many teams around the FCS there are with similar records and the quality of competition..

After this weekend, we will have a better picture of it all.

[Syntax Error]

... This issue hasn't come into play before, so thus the confusion...Whatever the reason you can be assured no conference will be confused in the future. xnodx

[BEAR]

........and UCA will go home with no playoff hopes (we knew that) and no conference championship (shared or outright). xrotatehx

[PantherRob82]

UCA....you are NOT the father.

[McNeese75]

no matter what they decide someone is going to be unhappy...but can we all at least agree regardless who represents the SLC will be making a quick exit xwhistlex

xrolleyesx Funny Boy xcoffeex

[Purple Pride]

Goodluck to the half-ass, second rate, wanna be mo-fo's who stole our spot in the post-season.

How does it feel to be the "CHAMP"????

[McNeese75]

Goodluck to the half-ass, second rate, wanna be mo-fo's who stole our spot in the post-season.

How does it feel to be the "CHAMP"????

xlolx And who would that be? I did not know they called off the last two games of the season. UCA has not won anything yet (mythical or official)

I guess it goes along with the "Last year the Bears would have been the SLC Champs (except for the 41-12 hiccup in Lake Chuck)

[MaximumBobcat]

Goodluck to the half-ass, second rate, wanna be mo-fo's who stole our spot in the post-season.

How does it feel to be the "CHAMP"????

The championship team at the end of the season is going to be crowned champ by the SLC, so you shouldn't dog the actual team, they really aren't doing anything.

For a UCA fan to have the same attitude or actually believe the stuff you just said would just plain be idiotic.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, that you were joking. xthumbsupx

[appstate1998]

xrolleyesx Funny Boy xcoffeex

September 12, 2009....welcome to the ROCK McNeese State. Armanti's first home game of his senior year....rumor has it he plans on gaining 1000 total yards

[NSUDemon98]

xlolx And who would that be? I did not know they called off the last two games of the season. UCA has not won anything yet (mythical or official)

I guess it goes along with the "Last year the Bears would have been the SLC Champs (except for the 41-12 hiccup in Lake Chuck)

He should probably take the advice of the quote in his signature. xreadx

[Go Apps]

It appears that if Central Arkansas wins the Southland - no other team could take the Autobid...due to a clause in the NCAA rules about playoff eligibility.

That would mean good news for other conferences...

[Hansel]

UCA can't "win" the SLC- there are a couple of threads on this

[McNeese72]

It appears that if Central Arkansas wins the Southland - no other team could take the Autobid...due to a clause in the NCAA rules about playoff eligibility.

That would mean good news for other conferences...

Where have you been? There is a whole string about this.

That would only be the case, if the Southland Conference chose to offiicially recognize UCA as the Conference Champion.

Plus, UCA hasn't won it yet. Still two games to play.

Doc

[UCABEARS75]

Goodluck to the half-ass, second rate, wanna be mo-fo's who stole our spot in the post-season.

How does it feel to be the "CHAMP"????

Once again Purple Pride has spoken/written without thinking.

As some above have pointed out we have won nothing as of yet (I was there for that whuppin in Lake Charles last November).

And even if we should win one or even both of our remaining games no one has "stole our spot in the post-season" because this ruling has nothing whatsoever to do with post-season play as we have known all along we were not eligible for post-season play.

[Bear Fan 101]

Goodluck to the half-ass, second rate, wanna be mo-fo's who stole our spot in the post-season.

How does it feel to be the "CHAMP"????

I really and truly hope that all of you realize that he/she does NOT speak for the entire UCA family or administration on this one, not that I do either, but... WOW xeyebrowx

And to think, we haven't even won anything yet. Like has been said by many, including more of us level-headed UCA fans, there is still a LOT of football to be played the last 2 weeks. Although not expecting it, this could all still be a moot point if UCA doesn't take care of business ON the field, and most of us realize that too.

[McNeese75]

September 12, 2009....welcome to the ROCK McNeese State. Armanti's first home game of his senior year....rumor has it he plans on gaining 1000 total yards

Yep, we are shaking in our cowboy boots down here xcoolx xcoffeex

[McNeese75]

I really and truly hope that all of you realize that he/she does NOT speak for the entire UCA family or administration on this one, not that I do either, but... WOW xeyebrowx

And to think, we haven't even won anything yet. Like has been said by many, including more of us level-headed UCA fans, there is still a LOT of football to be played the last 2 weeks. Although not expecting it, this could all still be a moot point if UCA doesn't take care of business ON the field, and most of us realize that too.

xnodx We know that.

[Go Apps]

My understanding is that they have already said that CA is eligible for the title, so now the Southland conference would have to retract that...

CA will probably win and they want the title as they could have won it last year.

If they do so - the autobid is forfeited - all other teams are still alive for the at large - but that would not happen ...

Sounds like they may allow CA to still win the title

[UCABEARS75]

My understanding is that they have already said that CA is eligible for the title, so now the Southland conference would have to retract that...

CA will probably win and they want the title as they could have won it last year.

If they do so - the autobid is forfeited - all other teams are still alive for the at large - but that would not happen ...

Sounds like they may allow CA to still win the title

NO. UCA has been informed they can not be declared SLC champ. no matter what the results on the field so as not to jepordize auto-bid.

[BEAR]

If the NCAA is using by-laws..why not use one of theirs??

31.3.4.3 Notification -- Automatic Qualification in Jeopardy.
A governing sports committee must issue a written warning one year in advance to a conference that is in jeopardy of losing its automatic qualification. (Note: This regulation does not apply to the following championships in which a play-in system has been established: baseball, women's softball, women's volleyball and men's soccer.) (Adopted: 10/3/06)

The NCAA knew UCA could possibly win the conference this year which would have messed up the AQ bid for the Southland. Since they didn't notify the Southland of the possibility in writing a year in advance...too bad! xrulesx

[Libertine]

That doesn't apply here. The rule you're referring to is if a conference is in danger of losing its autobid due to forseeable outside factors. In the case of the Southland, the conference would be losing the autobid due to its own infraction of NCAA rules which, of course, the NCAA cannot predict.

[BEAR]

That doesn't apply here. The rule you're referring to is if a conference is in danger of losing its autobid due to forseeable outside factors. In the case of the Southland, the conference would be losing the autobid due to its own infraction of NCAA rules which, of course, the NCAA cannot predict.

UCAs possible success was forseeable. UCA is an outside factor, they're not playoff eligible or in the conference title hunt due to the NCAA bylaw which rules them out of it. Both forseeable and outside. The conference wouldn't be losing it's autobid due to it's own infraction because UCA isn't listed on the playoff eligible roster for postseason. The Southland has no way of stopping UCA from being conference champs..but the NCAA does. The by-law I quoted should have been mentioned to the Southland after last years championship game between UCA/McNeese, but wasn't. The NCAA knew it..the only question is 'did the Southland know it." UCA should have been told they were not conference championship eligible last year, but weren't. Now the outsiders at UCA are causing the autobid to be in jeopardy, so the NCAA quotes a bylaw to solve the problem. Yet the bylaw I qouted says the conference should have been told in writing last year, but weren't. OH well, guess we'll see what the NCAA wants instead of what should be done. xmadx

[Syntax Error]

The Southland has no way of stopping UCA from being conference champs..but the NCAA does. The by-law I quoted should have been mentioned to the Southland...Wow. That is the ultimate "not my responsibility" excuse. The SLC has the power over who wins the conference championship recognition and, oh, maybe they should look at the NCAA rulebook bylaw called "Requirements -- Division Championship." So should UCA. It's almost a decade old.

[BEAR]

So why didn't the NCAA act on it last year when UCA was in the championship game with McNeese? ....oh yeah..not their responsibility....xeekx


...until it comes time to pick the playoff teams. xlolx

[Syntax Error]

So why didn't the NCAA act on it last year when UCA was in the championship game with McNeese? ....oh yeah..not their responsibility...That's right. That is why there are compliance people at schools and conferences. It is not the NCAA's responsibility, same as it's not a cop's responsibility that you read the speed limit sign.

[sharkeycox]

Wow. That is the ultimate "not my responsibility" excuse. The SLC has the power over who wins the conference championship recognition and, oh, maybe they should look at the NCAA rulebook bylaw called "Requirements -- Division Championship." So should UCA. It's almost a decade old.

Hey dude, the SLC applied for a waiver a long time back and the pinheads at the NCAA just now came up with this. Sadly, this is typical of the misguided twirps at the overbearing and bloated bureaucracy known as the NCAA.xrulesx

[BEAR]

Oh forget it. Nothing's gonna change anyway, foreknowledge or not. xrolleyesx

[Tod]

If the NCAA is using by-laws..why not use one of theirs??

31.3.4.3 Notification -- Automatic Qualification in Jeopardy.
A governing sports committee must issue a written warning one year in advance to a conference that is in jeopardy of losing its automatic qualification. (Note: This regulation does not apply to the following championships in which a play-in system has been established: baseball, women's softball, women's volleyball and men's soccer.) (Adopted: 10/3/06)

The NCAA knew UCA could possibly win the conference this year which would have messed up the AQ bid for the Southland. Since they didn't notify the Southland of the possibility in writing a year in advance...too bad! xrulesx

IMHO, this rule applies only to a permanent loss of AQ. I can't prove it, but in a court of law, I'll bet the NCAA could.

Here's what I think the NCAA should have done. Since they didn't send the letter last year, they shouldn't have sent it this year. That was a mistake on their part. Had they sent it last year, fine, but since they didn't, it was a mistake to do so this year.

Then, if UCA were to win the SLC and be crowned champions, the SLC would lose the AQ for this year and likely have no playoff participant.

However, the NCAA would not look the fool, the SLC and it's schools would have, since the rules are clear (or at least no clarification was requested) and have been on the books for nine years.

The NCAA only opened itself to criticism because the letter wasn't sent last year.

[Hammersmith]

Just reading this story for the first time, and I can't believe I'm agreeing with SE, but UCA and the SLC are DUMB. In fact, the first thought that popped into my head as I read the thread title was, "No s--t, Sherlock." Like it's been pointed out, this rule is almost a decade old. What's more, at least four schools and three conferences have dealt with this issue in the last three years. This isn't some obscure rule that no one's heard of before. When UC Davis was invited into the Big West, part of the contract was that they were not eligible to be conference champions to protect the autobids. When Northern Colorado was invited into the Big Sky, same thing. When NDSU & SDSU joined the Summit League, our presidents and ADs signed papers making us ineligible for the conference championships. Didn't anyone at UCA & the SLC talk to the BWC, BSC, & SL or the AD/presidents at UCD, UNC, SDSU & NDSU? It's not like these were uncharted waters as they were for UCD & UNC(the first schools to move up after the moratorium & rule changes). If I were the NCAA, I wouldn't have sent a letter because I never would've considered that a conference would jeopardize its autobid in such a ridiculous manner.

[Syntax Error]

...... must ............ not ............ say ............ what ........... I ....... really ............... think ........

[Hammersmith]

...... must ............ not ............ say ............ what ........... I ....... really ............... think ........
If you're suggesting that it's hypocritical for an NDSU fan to chastise another program for complaining about NCAA rules and ineligible period for playoffs, I'd just have to say that I wasn't one of the Bison fans who called the reclassification process unfair. I actually think it's a good idea, though sometimes frustrating. Hell, I spent a month about this time last year trying to tell other Bison fan how stupid it was to think a bowl game was possible. What shocks me is that I knew about this rule and I'm just a fan(albeit a weird one). It was these guys' jobs to know the rules and that UCA couldn't be the conference champion.

Now if you're thinking of something else, then never mind.


(Strangely enough, I initially joined AGS to ask you an autobid question in your previous guise.)

[Syntax Error]

yeah, something else

[TexasTerror]

SLC Commish Tom Burnett reflects back on the UCA football situation from 2008...guess it's his Pete Rozelle/JFK moment? The Commish has done a great job, no faulting him!


Burnett, who traveled from the SLC offices in the Dallas area to attend the event, said the most frustrating part of the process was when he had to announce that the Bears’ 2008 football team couldn’t be officially recognized by the league as conference champs because of an overlooked NCAA rule that provisional members of a classification could not be officially recognized as champions if the conference designated its champion for its automatic berth in the postseason playoffs.

“That football situation has stuck with me every day since then,” Burnett said. “But we’re past that now and you have every privilege every NCAA member has and you get to prove to the NCAA what we as a conference saw in you all along.”

http://thecabin.net/news/local/2010-07-21/uca-has-celebration-about-full-d-i-status

[txst80]

How long did it take you to dig up this thread? 19 months old...

[TexasTerror]

How long did it take you to dig up this thread? 19 months old...

Not long at all - someone from TXST or UCA referenced it on CS.com this week.

Came across the UCA story and the only place to properly place that story was right here.