Weber State playing like a top 5.

[Ronbo]

I'm watching the Weber State game and it seems like every other player is a transfer from Utah or BYU for the Wildcats.

Coach Hauck stated they looked like top 5 talent to him before they played them. They sure seem to be living up to that. They could easily end up 10-2 with the two loses to Utah and Hawaii.

[JALMOND]

I'm watching the Weber State game and it seems like every other player is a transfer from Utah or BYU for the Wildcats.

Coach Hauck stated they looked like top 5 talent to him before they played them. They sure seem to be living up to that. They could easily end up 10-2 with the two loses to Utah and Hawaii.

Utah loss=good loss where the Utes are now (should be crashing the BCS party)

The Hawaii game, I believe Weber was ahead at the half. Hawaii scored 28 in the 3rd to come from behind so that really wasn't all that bad either.

[gbhmt]

I'm just waiting for them to go to the playoffs and embarass some SoCon or CAA team so that people would quit saying they're overrated.

[Tod]

I'm just waiting for them to go to the playoffs and embarass some SoCon or CAA team so that people would quit saying they're overrated.

xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx

[JALMOND]

I'm just waiting for them to go to the playoffs and embarass some SoCon or CAA team so that people would quit saying they're overrated.

I just want something to happen so that they quit saying we as a conference are overrated.

[gbhmt]

I just want something to happen so that they quit saying we as a conference are overrated.

That too. Just to silence them altogether really.

[Tod]

That too. Just to silence them altogether really.

Are you suggesting...MURDER???!!!!!

xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xlolx xlolx

[Appaholic]

I'm just waiting for them to go to the playoffs and embarass some SoCon or CAA team so that people would quit saying they're overrated.

Yeah....we've been waiting for that as well.....tired of hearing ya'll say how your conference ISN'T overrated.....xcoffeex

[gbhmt]

Are you suggesting...MURDER???!!!!!

xrotatehx xrotatehx xrotatehx xlolx xlolx

If it's on the field, then yes. Yes I am.

[Syntax Error]

They look like the class of the Big Sky for sure beating Montana and NAU. They could wind up with the AQ and 8 D-I wins if they run the table. They are #9 now, just about right with a pair of FBS losses and non-D-I wins.

[WrenFGun]

As a CAA fan, Weber State looks to be for real. NAU on the other hand...

[Grizalltheway]

Yeah....we've been waiting for that as well.....tired of hearing ya'll say how your conference ISN'T overrated.....xcoffeex

I think EWU's impressive showing at the rock last year was pretty indicative of the conference's improvement. xcoffeex

[Appaholic]

I think EWU's impressive showing at the rock last year was pretty indicative of the conference's improvement. xcoffeex

...as well as indicative of how *****ty our special teams are (and continue to be)....and your conf champions showing against ours (in Missoula of course) is pretty indicative of the inferiority of the BSC in recent years...enjoy the coffee...xcoffeex

[Jerbearasu]

I think EWU's impressive showing at the rock last year was pretty indicative of the conference's improvement. xcoffeex

Wasn't App up by 17 with 3 minutes to play? Yeah they had to recover an on-side kick to solidify the win but it's not like it was a close game all the way through...

[gbhmt]

...as well as indicative of how *****ty our special teams are (and continue to be)....and your conf champions showing against ours (in Missoula of course) is pretty indicative of the inferiority of the BSC in recent years...enjoy the coffee...xcoffeex

And indicative of the fact that even a kicker that made it to the NFL can tragically miss a chip shot that would have put away your conference champions...xcoffeex

[Appaholic]

Wasn't App up by 17 with 3 minutes to play? Yeah they had to recover an on-side kick to solidify the win but it's not like it was a close game all the way through...

Apparantly, that's considered a win in the Big Fluffy...

xlolx Have you ever seen a conference take SO much pride in a loss? xlolx

[Appaholic]

And indicative of the fact that even a kicker that made it to the NFL can tragically miss a chip shot that would have put away your conference champions...xcoffeex

Did you lose? xcoffeex

[Syntax Error]

this isn't the smack board and the thread is about Weber State

[gbhmt]

Anyways, to continue. Weber State is a force. They're going to be underestimated. I would be surprised if they didn't win a playoff game this year.

[Appaholic]

Anyways, to continue. Weber State is a force. They're going to be underestimated. I would be surprised if they didn't win a playoff game this year.

Agreed....and I would not relish meeting them in an early round....

[mvemjsunpx]

I think it's funny you guys base conference quality entirely on what happened in the 2007 playoffs.


Anyway, the Big Sky could be looking at two top-4 seeds this year with Weber likely finishing 10-2 (8-0 against FCS) & Montana likely finishing 11-1.

[Appaholic]

I think it's funny you guys base conference quality entirely on what happened in the 2007 playoffs.


Anyway, the Big Sky could be looking at two top-4 seeds this year with Weber likely finishing 10-2 (8-0 against FCS) & Montana likely finishing 11-1.

We're not.....we're basing it on the fact that there were 3 SoCon teams in the top 5 earlier today and no BSC in the top 5.....but anyway, I hope we'll have the opportunity to settle this on the field....Weber is a veryt good team....xpeacex

[Appstate29]

Weber is looking good, for a big fl-, big f-, big flu-, big FLUFF team. :D just kidding, congrats come to boone and 'prove' how the Fluff isn't fluffy at all.

[Ronbo]

Weber is looking good, for a big fl-, big f-, big flu-, big FLUFF team. :D just kidding, congrats come to boone and 'prove' how the Fluff isn't fluffy at all.

Better not lose any more. A 3 loss team will be on the road after the 1st round.xsmiley_wix

[Appaholic]

Better not lose any more. A 3 loss team will be on the road after the 1st round.xsmiley_wix
I know...I know....xoopsx

[89Hen]

Better not lose any more. A 3 loss team will be on the road after the 1st round.xsmiley_wix
Unless it's Montana, App, or Delaware (well, not this year).

[gbhmt]

Unless it's Montana, App, or Delaware (well, not this year).

True. The committee likes themselves some ticket sales.

[appstate38]

I'm just waiting for them to go to the playoffs and embarass some SoCon or CAA team so that people would quit saying they're overrated.

Who do you want??? There about 5-6 teams from the SoCon and CAA that would eat your lunch.

[bpcats]

The most impressive thing about the win was the fact that Weber was able to run on NAU for 74 yds. NAU usually held their opponent to less than 10 yds a game. The last team to rush for any success against NAU was Arizona State for 87 yds. Higgins is the real deal and their wide receiver Toone is very effective. Weber doesn't do anything fancy but they sure are effective.

I do think that a team that has a lot of speed at the skill positions would have the best chance of beating them.

NAU is a good team but you can't give the ball away 4 times and expect to win a lot of games.

[LehighFan11]

Weber State looks like a serious contender. Two competitive FBS losses, and two big wins on their road vs. Montana and NAU. How does Weber beat Northern Colorado by 7 at home and then trash NAU on the road? There maybe some questions about this team and who they have played but we may know those answers as they are sitting as one of the 8 teams left with a chance first week on decemeber.

[crunifan]

Eastern Washington gave UNI everything they had an more back in 2005 in the Dome, so I am plenty aware of the talent in the Big Sky. Then again, the MVC is always perceived much weaker than the mighty CAA or SoCon, so we are both in the same boat...

[GolfingGriz]

Wait! How many times has App. State beat Montana in the playoffs?

[I Bleed Purple]

Weber State looks like a serious contender. Two competitive FBS losses, and two big wins on their road vs. Montana and NAU. How does Weber beat Northern Colorado by 7 at home and then trash NAU on the road? There maybe some questions about this team and who they have played but we may know those answers as they are sitting as one of the 8 teams left with a chance first week on decemeber.

Three red zone turnovers.

[Zoo]

I think Weber State will run the table and win the Big Sky. A very talented team down there.

[T-Dog]

In my Top 25 that doesn't matter as I don't vote in any polls, I have Weber #7. Not quite Top 5, but they are moving up and getting my attention (up from #14). xnodx And with the parody and conference foes beating each other up that is sure to happen, if they run the table the rest of the way, they'll be Top 5 for sure at the end of the regular season.

So for those who are wondering where the respect is, patience. It'll come in due time.

[AZGrizFan]

We're not.....we're basing it on the fact that there were 3 SoCon teams in the top 5 earlier today and no BSC in the top 5.....but anyway, I hope we'll have the opportunity to settle this on the field....Weber is a veryt good team....xpeacex

I guess we all found out that Elon wasn't for real. Scratch one top 5 SoCon team. xrolleyesx

[AZGrizFan]

Unless it's Montana, App, or Delaware (well, not this year).


True. The committee likes themselves some ticket sales.

Riiiiiight. Like a 3-loss BSC team has ANY chance of actually being IN the playoffs... xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[AZGrizFan]

Weber State looks like a serious contender. Two competitive FBS losses, and two big wins on their road vs. Montana and NAU. How does Weber beat Northern Colorado by 7 at home and then trash NAU on the road? There maybe some questions about this team and who they have played but we may know those answers as they are sitting as one of the 8 teams left with a chance first week on decemeber.

The UM win was @ Weber. xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex

[NZNCRZY]

I think Weber State will run the table and win the Big Sky. A very talented team down there.

I think Weber will win the big sky. To bad they have one of the worst fan base I have ever seen. I think there was 1500 at the Griz game and most of them came from Montana. I dought they will see a home game in the play offs

[Wolfman]

As a Montana fan, but a fan who understands football, I will agree that the Big Sky remains to be a joke as a conference. NAU is just now exposing themselves as pretenders. They may not win another conference game this season.

It is a 2-team conference, with Weber and Montana. The rest of the league is a embarrassment to FCS football. To have a great conference, there must 50% of the teams with overall winning records, and capable of beating any of the conference leaders in any given week. Realistically, that will never happen in the Big Sky. Weber and Montana will not be challenged by the sisters-of-the-poor within the conference this season.

Let us not forget that this is the first great team Weber has had in over a decade. The Big Sky is uusually a one-team conference..... Montana. Occasionally there is a pretender.... a team who ties Montana for the conference title because the Griz find a way to give a game away to a team they should not lose to.

But, to attempt to make the BSC anything other than a weak conference is ridiculous.

[AZGrizFan]

As a Montana fan, but a fan who understands football, I will agree that the Big Sky remains to be a joke as a conference. NAU is just now exposing themselves as pretenders. They may not win another conference game this season.

It is a 2-team conference, with Weber and Montana. The rest of the league is a embarrassment to FCS football. To have a great conference, there must 50% of the teams with overall winning records, and capable of beating any of the conference leaders in any given week. Realistically, that will never happen in the Big Sky. Weber and Montana will not be challenged by the sisters-of-the-poor within the conference this season.

Let us not forget that this is the first great team Weber has had in over a decade. The Big Sky is uusually a one-team conference..... Montana. Occasionally there is a pretender.... a team who ties Montana for the conference title because the Griz find a way to give a game away to a team they should not lose to.

But, to attempt to make the BSC anything other than a weak conference is ridiculous.

Are you SURE you're not some CAA poster in disguise? xlolx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[LehighFan11]

The UM win was @ Weber. xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex

My mistake, yea the result may of been much different @ Montana.

[AZGrizFan]

NAU is just now exposing themselves as pretenders. They may not win another conference game this season. NAU finishes 8-3.

It is a 2-team conference, with Weber and Montana. The rest of the league is a embarrassment to FCS football. To have a great conference, there must 50% of the teams with overall winning records (is this the Wolfman Theory? Or is this written in stone somewhere?), and capable of beating any of the conference leaders in any given week. Realistically, that will never happen in the Big Sky. Weber and Montana will not be challenged by the sisters-of-the-poor within the conference this season.

Let us not forget that this is the first great team Weber has had in over a decade. The Big Sky is uusually a one-team conference..... Montana. (Never mind that EWU and MSU would argue that point....you're on a roll!!) Occasionally there is a pretender.... a team who ties Montana for the conference title because the Griz find a way to give a game away to a team they should not lose to (this would be the "other" teams like EWU, MSU and (this year) Weber?)

But, to attempt to make the BSC anything other than a weak conference is ridiculous.

2003 - 6/8 teams with winning records, 3 way tie for conference championship (UM/MSU/NAU)
2004 - 4/8 teams with winning records, 2 way tie (UM/EWU)
2005 - 5/8 teams with winning records, 3 way tie (UM/MSU/EWU)
2006 - 4/9 teams with winning records, UM wins title outright
2007 - 4/9 teams with winning records, UM wins title outright

So, counting this year (in which the Griz in all likelihood won't win the conference title), over HALF the conference will have won or shared the conference title since 2003---UM, MSU, EWU, NAU, Weber.

You sound JUST like a CAA or SoCon homer....xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx xsmhx

[AZGrizFan]

My mistake, yea the result may of been much different @ Montana.

The only way that game result is much different is if the Griz don't turn the ball over. They had a two game stretch of the "dropsies" and it almost cost them TWO games.... xcoolx xcoolx xcoolx

[Ronbo]

Yes if you looked at the stats of the Weber/Montana game they were dead even except for one. Turnovers!

.......................................UM......... WSU
1st Downs.........................20........... 20
Total Yards.......................410..........429
Passing............................295.........237
Rushing............................115.........192
Penalties..........................8-82........11-92
3rd Down Conversions.........5-14.........5-11
4th Down Conversions.........2-4...........1-1
Turnovers..........................4.............. .1
Possession......................30:59..........29: 01

[dbackjon]

As a Montana fan, but a fan who understands football, I will agree that the Big Sky remains to be a joke as a conference. NAU is just now exposing themselves as pretenders. They may not win another conference game this season.

It is a 2-team conference, with Weber and Montana. The rest of the league is a embarrassment to FCS football. To have a great conference, there must 50% of the teams with overall winning records, and capable of beating any of the conference leaders in any given week. Realistically, that will never happen in the Big Sky. Weber and Montana will not be challenged by the sisters-of-the-poor within the conference this season.

Let us not forget that this is the first great team Weber has had in over a decade. The Big Sky is uusually a one-team conference..... Montana. Occasionally there is a pretender.... a team who ties Montana for the conference title because the Griz find a way to give a game away to a team they should not lose to.

But, to attempt to make the BSC anything other than a weak conference is ridiculous.

You are an idiot, and and an embarrasment to Big Sky and Montana Fans.

[Ronbo]

You are an idiot, and and an embarrasment to Big Sky and Montana Fans.


He's not a Montana fan. He's a long suffering fan of possibly ISU or Sac. State that pretends to be a Montana fan. It's the Internet and message boards where people are anonymous. Until he shows up to a tailgate at Missoula and announces who he is I DO NOT believe he is or ever has been a fan of Montana football. He's an agitator from another BSC school who gets a kick out of stirring up Grizzly fans.

[slostang]

Yes if you looked at the stats of the Weber/Montana game they were dead even except for one. Turnovers!

.......................................UM......... WSU
1st Downs.........................20........... 20
Total Yards.......................410..........429
Passing............................295.........237
Rushing............................115.........192
Penalties..........................8-82........11-92
3rd Down Conversions.........5-14.........5-11
4th Down Conversions.........2-4...........1-1
Turnovers..........................4.............. .1
Possession......................30:59..........29: 01

They also won the most important stat, they won on the score board.

[Ronbo]

They also won the most important stat, they won on the score board.

The point was that the turnovers accounted for about a 21 point swing on the scoreboard. We handed them 3 TD's minimum by either giving them great field position or giving up the ball when we were about to score.

[I Bleed Purple]

The point was that the turnovers accounted for about a 21 point swing on the scoreboard. We handed them 3 TD's minimum by either giving them great field position or giving up the ball when we were about to score.

That's generally what turnovers do...

Let's see if I can remember. One turnover near the end of game on a fourth down that actually gave us worse field position had Hadley not caught it.

The failed option play. Gave us the ball at your goal line.

I think a pick around midfield ran back to your forty.

A fumble around our thirty.

None of them were in position for you to score. Nowhere near a given you score on oppenent's thirty.

[Appaholic]

I guess we all found out that Elon wasn't for real. Scratch one top 5 SoCon team. xrolleyesx

Fine...that leaves two more teams in top 5 than BSC has had....Elon was exposed much the same way Montana was earlier this year....xcoffeex

[Appaholic]

Wait! How many times has App. State beat Montana in the playoffs?


Ah....a newbie....as you can see, we are discussing this year....unless you would like to discuss the "joke" of 2004.....try to keep up with the thread, rook.......

[GATA]

I guess we all found out that Elon wasn't for real. Scratch one top 5 SoCon team. xrolleyesx

Because they lost to another top 5 team? You're gonna have to try harder than that...

The funny thing about a football game is...somebody is gonna lose. A top 5 team losing to a Top 5 team isn't really surprising. xrolleyesx

P.S. (totally unrelated) Why do so many people have trouble spelling "lose"?...I see alot of "loose"

[Peems]

Ah....a newbie....as you can see, we are discussing this year....unless you would like to discuss the "joke" of 2004.....try to keep up with the thread, rook.......

then stop bringing up last year!:) xrotatehx

[Appaholic]

Because they lost to another top 5 team? You're gonna have to try harder than that...

The funny thing about a football game is...somebody is gonna lose. A top 5 team losing to a Top 5 team isn't really surprising. xrolleyesx

P.S. (totally unrelated) Why do so many people have trouble spelling "lose"?...I see alot of "loose"

He's an Idaho grad....what do you expect...xsmiley_wix

[Appaholic]

then stop bringing up last year!:) xrotatehx

SE brought us back to reality on page 2....we've been discussing this year ever since....except when some delusional BS fan brings up the close EWU lose (or win in their minds) at Boone last year......talking about this year isn't going to help the BSC argument....Weber is a good team and will make some noise this year....

[travelinman67]

Yes if you looked at the stats of the Weber/Montana game they were dead even except for one. Turnovers!

.......................................UM......... WSU
1st Downs.........................20........... 20
Total Yards.......................410..........429
Passing............................295.........237
Rushing............................115.........192
Penalties..........................8-82........11-92
3rd Down Conversions.........5-14.........5-11
4th Down Conversions.........2-4...........1-1
Turnovers..........................4.............. .1
Possession......................30:59..........29: 01

NAU didn't help their cause with 4 turnovers either. BSC is clearly Weber. Don't know about top 5 but 7th seems right.

(BTW, Cal Poly will drop after their win...game was too sloppy...both schools setting records, and if 3-5 SUU is able to match CP blow for blow as they did in the first half...CP's not staying in the top 10.)

[AZGrizFan]

Because they lost to another top 5 team? You're gonna have to try harder than that...

The funny thing about a football game is...somebody is gonna lose. A top 5 team losing to a Top 5 team isn't really surprising. xrolleyesx

P.S. (totally unrelated) Why do so many people have trouble spelling "lose"?...I see alot of "loose"

Not the fact that they lost. It's HOW they lost. xthumbsupx

[cats2506]

NAU didn't help their cause with 4 turnovers either. BSC is clearly Weber. Don't know about top 5 but 7th seems right.

(BTW, Cal Poly will drop after their win...game was too sloppy...both schools setting records, and if 3-5 SUU is able to match CP blow for blow as they did in the first half...CP's not staying in the top 10.)

I think we could agree that NAU is probably NOT a top 25 team, WSU IS a top 10 team and Elon is a NOT a top 10 team

[AZGrizFan]

I think we could agree that NAU is probably NOT a top 25 team, WSU IS a top 10 team and Elon is a NOT a top 10 team

I disagree about NAU...NAU is probably in the 20-25 range....Elon in the 15-20 range.

[cats2506]

I disagree about NAU...NAU is probably in the 20-25 range....Elon in the 15-20 range.

They might be this week, but I doubt they will be in 2 weeks

[Wolfman]

Are you SURE you're not some CAA poster in disguise? xlolx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx


No, i'm just a realist who lived in Atlanta for 11 years, and watched many a IAA game involving Furman, Ga. So, Appy, etc. I understand that the Eastern schools are able to recruit so much more speed, quickness, and athleticsm because of the wealth of those type of players in the South, that the Big Sky Conference just does not stack up, from top-to-bottom.

Montana is the only Big Sky team that could consistantly compete at the upper echelon of these two Eastern powerhouse conferences.

[AZGrizFan]

They might be this week, but I doubt they will be in 2 weeks


...well, you're probably right about that...

[dbackjon]

...well, you're probably right about that...

NAU might lose to MT, but won't to MSU.

At 7-3, given the general parity, er mediocrity of FCS, that should be top 25 worthy...;)

[FargoBison]

I disagree about NAU...NAU is probably in the 20-25 range....Elon in the 15-20 range.

Yeah, it doesn't take much to be in that 20-25 range this year.

[AZGrizFan]

No, i'm just a realist who lived in Atlanta for 11 years, and watched many a IAA game involving Furman, Ga. So, Appy, etc. I understand that the Eastern schools are able to recruit so much more speed, quickness, and athleticsm because of the wealth of those type of players in the South, that the Big Sky Conference just does not stack up, from top-to-bottom.

Montana is the only Big Sky team that could consistantly compete at the upper echelon of these two Eastern powerhouse conferences.

Wolf---if you had been around here longer, you'd realize that almost the ENTIRE argument of those who claim East Coast superiority is that teams there DON'T consistently compete. They ebb and they flow. In fact, they use Montana's dominance of the BSC over the past 13 years as PROOF that the BSC is weak. They point to the fact that every year, some different team is strong while last years' powerhouse is pedestrian this year. With a few exceptions recently (JMU, Appy, for example) the teams there win on kind of a "rotational" basis. Apparently this is proof (in their eyes) that there's more competition. I say it's just inconsistent recruiting. xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex

Ironically, it's really the same story in the BSC. Some teams (Weber, NAU, MSU, EWU) have erratic recruiting leading to up years and down years....Montana has consistent recruiting leading to consistent winning.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

As a Montana fan, but a fan who understands football, I will agree that the Big Sky remains to be a joke as a conference. NAU is just now exposing themselves as pretenders. They may not win another conference game this season.

It is a 2-team conference, with Weber and Montana. The rest of the league is a embarrassment to FCS football. To have a great conference, there must 50% of the teams with overall winning records, and capable of beating any of the conference leaders in any given week. Realistically, that will never happen in the Big Sky. Weber and Montana will not be challenged by the sisters-of-the-poor within the conference this season.

Let us not forget that this is the first great team Weber has had in over a decade. The Big Sky is uusually a one-team conference..... Montana. Occasionally there is a pretender.... a team who ties Montana for the conference title because the Griz find a way to give a game away to a team they should not lose to.

But, to attempt to make the BSC anything other than a weak conference is ridiculous.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

You are an embarrassment to FCS Football discussion. I suppose Eastern was the pretender last year huh? We pretended to whoop on McNeese and make a game out of Appy?

I thought you've said all along that Montana was the pretender (under Hauck of course), padding the schedule and always busting in the first round. So which is it?

[Appaholic]

Wolf---if you had been around here longer, you'd realize that almost the ENTIRE argument of those who claim East Coast superiority is that teams there DON'T consistently compete. They ebb and they flow. In fact, they use Montana's dominance of the BSC over the past 13 years as PROOF that the BSC is weak. They point to the fact that every year, some different team is strong while last years' powerhouse is pedestrian this year. With a few exceptions recently (JMU, Appy, for example) the teams there win on kind of a "rotational" basis. Apparently this is proof (in their eyes) that there's more competition. I say it's just inconsistent recruiting. xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex xcoffeex

Ironically, it's really the same story in the BSC. Some teams (Weber, NAU, MSU, EWU) have erratic recruiting leading to up years and down years....Montana has consistent recruiting leading to consistent winning.


Consistently winning their conference yet bowing out in the playoffs....IMO, outside of this year, Montana's conference competition is inconsisent at best, non-existent at worse.....no team can maintain dominance of a strong conference anually I don't care how good your recruiting is.......Florida State dominated a weak ACC for 14 years...Montana has dominated a weak BSC for 13 years....eventually, parity comes in the form of coaches leaving, players transferrig etc......if the parity never comes, then you GOTTA question the competition....xcoffeex

[UNCBears2010]

As a CAA fan, Weber State looks to be for real. NAU on the other hand...

With UNC being the only Big Sky team that has played all three of Weber, Montana and NAU, I think Weber and Montana are about even and are both for real, but NAU is not in their class.

[Stang Fever]

Weber State is a Top ten team. The two looses they do have are to FBS teams... So I dont hold that against them.

[89Hen]

In fact, they use Montana's dominance of the BSC over the past 13 years as PROOF that the BSC is weak
Montana is 8-7 in the first round during the 15 year streak. The two years they didn't win the auto, the Big Sky auto went 0-2. xpeacex

[Appaholic]

Montana is 8-7 in the first round during the 15 year streak. The two years they didn't win the auto, the Big Sky auto went 0-2. xpeacex

Which, in the eyes of AZ and other BSC fans, is just proof at how tough the BSC is.....they were too worn out to be competitve after all hose tough conference games....xcoffeex

[Tailbone]

Montana is 8-7 in the first round during the 15 year streak. The two years they didn't win the auto, the Big Sky auto went 0-2. xpeacex

And in two of those years, the #2 BSC team clobbered the #1 FCS team on the road. xeyebrowx

....any given Saturday.

These kinds of arguments/discussions are ridiculous.

[AZGrizFan]

Consistently winning their conference yet bowing out in the playoffs....IMO, outside of this year, Montana's conference competition is inconsisent at best, non-existent at worse.....no team can maintain dominance of a strong conference anually I don't care how good your recruiting is.......Florida State dominated a weak ACC for 14 years...Montana has dominated a weak BSC for 13 years....eventually, parity comes in the form of coaches leaving, players transferrig etc......if the parity never comes, then you GOTTA question the competition....xcoffeex

You attribute the dominance to "weak" competition. I attribute the dominance to having developed something special and unique that no other university is in the position to develop. We don't have a multitude of universitys to compete with for players. We've got a state of the art facility. We've got incredible tradition. We're the only show in town (or in the STATE, for that matter). The history/track record/etc. causes Montana to recruit ITSELF! Players grow up wanting to play for the Griz. Back East, with a I-A school on every corner, players don't grow up wanting to play for Appy State, or GSU, or UMass. They go there because they weren't good enough to go somewhere else. Now, as to WHY it happened to Montana and not MSU, that's anybody's guess. EVERY other team in the BSC has I-A competition within their state---and some of it in very close proximity. Being the big fish has incredible advantages. I'm not sure this could have happened at any other BSC school except MSU. It's taken special dynamics, the right coach at the right time (Don Read), and a benefactor who saw the value of a top notch facility (Denny Washington). Put it all together and you've got the perfect storm. Now it's like a snowball rolling down hill....and the rest of the FCS world shows it's jealousy by reactions like these. xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

And I've got a newsflash for you, Appy: For the past three years, EVERYBODY has consistently bowed out in the playoffs, except for ASU. It's no shame to lose to teams like Wofford, JMU, UMass or Cal Poly. You don't have to win it all EVERY year to prove you're a great team.

2000: NC Game (loss to GSU)
2001: NC Game (winners)
2002: quarterfinals (loss to McNeese St)
2003: 1st round loss (WIU)
2004: NC Game (loss to JMU)
2005: 1st round loss (Cal Poly)
2006: Semifinals (loss to UMass)
2007: 1st round loss (Wofford)

2003 and 2005 were probably the two weakest Griz teams in recent memory. Last year's team ran into an offense they hadn't seen before (remember, the same offense that put up 42 on ASU???) and lost on a missed field goal. Other than that, there's three trips to the NC game, another trip to the semis and a quarterfinal loss.

Every other team in AMERICA (aside from ASU) would take that 8 year history in a heartbeat. And if they say they wouldn't, they're lying.

[AZGrizFan]

Which, in the eyes of AZ and other BSC fans, is just proof at how tough the BSC is.....they were too worn out to be competitve after all hose tough conference games....xcoffeex

Never underestimate the value of the effect of travel. In 2007, aside from their trip to Ann Arbor, Appy State NEVER LEFT THE CAROLINAS. 10 games, all within the confines of North and South Carolina. That would be like Montana being able to play all 10 games inside the state of Montana (insert obvious joke here...).

As tailbone says, these types of arguments are ridiculous. Having to "justify" Montana's success is ludicrous. Espcially to Hen fans. They'd kill for that kind of success (especially this year, huh Hen?)...oh wait, that's just because the entire conference would finish first in the Big Sky... xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

[appstate38]

2000: NC Game (loss to GSU)
2001: NC Game (winners)
2002: quarterfinals (loss to McNeese St)
2003: 1st round loss (WIU)
2004: NC Game (loss to JMU)
2005: 1st round loss (Cal Poly)
2006: Semifinals (loss to UMass)
2007: 1st round loss (Wofford)

2003 and 2005 were probably the two weakest Griz teams in recent memory. Last year's team ran into an offense they hadn't seen before (remember, the same offense that put up 42 on ASU???) and lost on a missed field goal. Other than that, there's three trips to the NC game, another trip to the semis and a quarterfinal loss.

Looking at this record for me it really isn't about the Griz. It speaks more to the fact that the rest of the BSC hasn't caught up to you on a consistent basis. It seems to be a merry-go-round of teams that try to rise up to challenge you guys then they return to the mediocrity. For us it usually has come down to the Big 3. But lately Wofford and now Elon has gotten to the point where they are challenging that Big 3 notion. It just seems the BSC is usually the Griz then everybody else. It is not Montana's fault if the rest of the league isn't as good as you. You just don't need to make excuses for it. Just my thoughts.

[AZGrizFan]

Looking at this record for me it really isn't about the Griz. It speaks more to the fact that the rest of the BSC hasn't caught up to you on a consistent basis. It seems to be a merry-go-round of teams that try to rise up to challenge you guys then they return to the mediocrity. For us it usually has come down to the Big 3. But lately Wofford and now Elon has gotten to the point where they are challenging that Big 3 notion. It just seems the BSC is usually the Griz then everybody else. It is not Montana's fault if the rest of the league isn't as good as you. You just don't need to make excuses for it. Just my thoughts.

And in FCS it's ASU and everybody else. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

[Appaholic]

You attribute the dominance to "weak" competition. I attribute the dominance to having developed something special and unique that no other university is in the position to develop. We don't have a multitude of universitys to compete with for players. We've got a state of the art facility. We've got incredible tradition. We're the only show in town (or in the STATE, for that matter). The history/track record/etc. causes Montana to recruit ITSELF! Players grow up wanting to play for the Griz. Back East, with a I-A school on every corner, players don't grow up wanting to play for Appy State, or GSU, or UMass. They go there because they weren't good enough to go somewhere else. Now, as to WHY it happened to Montana and not MSU, that's anybody's guess. EVERY other team in the BSC has I-A competition within their state---and some of it in very close proximity. Being the big fish has incredible advantages. I'm not sure this could have happened at any other BSC school except MSU. It's taken special dynamics, the right coach at the right time (Don Read), and a benefactor who saw the value of a top notch facility (Denny Washington). Put it all together and you've got the perfect storm. Now it's like a snowball rolling down hill....and the rest of the FCS world shows it's jealousy by reactions like these. xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex xwhistlex

And I've got a newsflash for you, Appy: For the past three years, EVERYBODY has consistently bowed out in the playoffs, except for ASU. It's no shame to lose to teams like Wofford, JMU, UMass or Cal Poly. You don't have to win it all EVERY year to prove you're a great team.

2000: NC Game (loss to GSU)
2001: NC Game (winners)
2002: quarterfinals (loss to McNeese St)
2003: 1st round loss (WIU)
2004: NC Game (loss to JMU)
2005: 1st round loss (Cal Poly)
2006: Semifinals (loss to UMass)
2007: 1st round loss (Wofford)

2003 and 2005 were probably the two weakest Griz teams in recent memory. Last year's team ran into an offense they hadn't seen before (remember, the same offense that put up 42 on ASU???) and lost on a missed field goal. Other than that, there's three trips to the NC game, another trip to the semis and a quarterfinal loss.

Every other team in AMERICA (aside from ASU) would take that 8 year history in a heartbeat. And if they say they wouldn't, they're lying.


Looks like every lose but 1 was to an east coast team......that east coast bias thing?...well, where there's smoke.....xwhistlex

[Appaholic]

Never underestimate the value of the effect of travel. In 2007, aside from their trip to Ann Arbor, Appy State NEVER LEFT THE CAROLINAS. 10 games, all within the confines of North and South Carolina. That would be like Montana being able to play all 10 games inside the state of Montana (insert obvious joke here...).

As tailbone says, these types of arguments are ridiculous. Having to "justify" Montana's success is ludicrous. Espcially to Hen fans. They'd kill for that kind of success (especially this year, huh Hen?)...oh wait, that's just because the entire conference would finish first in the Big Sky... xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

I agree, and there is no need to justify Montana's success. But to suggest the BSC is better or even on par with the likes of CAA or SOCON is ludicrous.....the numbers don't support it. The ONLY Big Sky team making any noise is Montana, but during the same stretch, GSU & ASU from the SoCon won 4 titles and Delaware & JMU brought 2 more titles to CAA.....so, during the 8 year stretch you referenced, 6 titles from 2 conferences & 4 different teams vs 1 NC for Big Sky and only one team represented in any Finals.....sorry, but stats don't lie......

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

I hope Weber smokes appy in the playoffs.

[Appaholic]

Now, as to WHY it happened to Montana and not MSU, that's anybody's guess.

It's gotta be Red's.......

[Tailbone]

..... to suggest the BSC is better or even on par with the likes of CAA or SOCON is ludicrous.....the numbers don't support it. The ONLY Big Sky team making any noise is Montana, but during the same stretch, GSU & ASU from the SoCon won 4 titles and Delaware & JMU brought 2 more titles to CAA.....so, during the 8 year stretch you referenced, 6 titles from 2 conferences & 4 different teams vs 1 NC for Big Sky and only one team represented in any Finals.....sorry, but stats don't lie......

Given the difference in population densities, and regionalization of the playoffs, the data set is too limited to draw any meaningful conclusions about the relative strength of the BSC vs. the SoCon/CAA. Additionally (for a variety of reasons) the BSC runner-up is usually on the road, where the road team (in all of FCS) only wins about 20% of the time. This is what makes the NAU/EWU victories, noteworthy.

Just to expound a bit an AzGrizFan's point.....

I once rode the bus from Phoenix to Missoula – about 1250 miles. The trip took 2 ½ days.
When I arrived in Missoula I was tired, thirsty, bloated and dirty…..at least that’s how I felt. If I were an athlete on my way to a competition, I wouldn’t have felt much like competing. I swore I’d never do that again.
To play a conference game against NAU requires the Missoula to Phoenix plane ride – and a bus ride of over two hours to Flagstaff.
NAU is just one conference foe, most road trips are similar – perhaps not as far or expensive – but the difference is relatively insignificant. I would be surprised if any eastern FCS team’s total travel budget cost more than a single trip to NAU or SAC State and I would be astounded if their budget exceeded the cost of two such trips. Montana is roughly 600 miles across and 300 miles top to bottom, Montana State University is our closest conference foe and represents a 3-4 hour bus ride of about 200 miles.
Dividing the population of Montana (900,000) by the two universities (UM & MSU) yields a support base of about 450,000 people per school, and is further divided into the dozen or so satellite campuses with their own athletic programs (Rocky Mountain college, Western Montana college, etc.). North Carolina has 8 million people (in a much smaller area)….you do the math.
while on the topic of geography, I will address the issue of competition for athletes (the converse argument to being “the only game in town” – another supposed “advantage”). Ever hear of 6-man football? Do they play 6-man football in North Carolina? 6-man football is a game played in many towns across Montana (with six men - clever huh)….why? Because the population centers are so small that a school cannot field enough athletes to form a full team. How would you like to recruit these small schools, hundreds of miles apart, to mine enough good athletes for a university football team (we do like to offer scholarships to our own Montana children). It makes for a rather interesting challenge on a limited recruiting budget. Enough of my rant, but I do admit to being frustrated at the lack of understanding by those more cloistered members of our subdivision. I think before you judge us so harshly, you should come on out for a visit…to see for yourself just how “wide open” the spaces are.

………I suggest you come by bus.

For what it's worth......(The math)……

North Carolina's population density is 2000 people per square mile - Montana's is 6.

.....that's 31 full scholarship FCS teams (PER SQUARE MILE) to one 6 man football team for Montana in the same space.
Many students in some of the out-of-the-way places in Montana spend over 2 hours each day commuting to school and back by bus - excluding the time spent picking up students.

Actually, when you think about it, it's an accomplishment to even remain fiscally viable - let alone achieve the kind of success we have, given the demographics of the region.

BTW: did you know that a full 50% of the entire population of the United States lies within a 500 mile radius of NC? (http://statelibrary.dcr.state.nc.us/NC/GEO/GEO.HTM) ......that makes for a significantly larger recruiting pool than UM, MSU, or other BSC schools, and certainly has a significant impact on travel costs and ability to compete. For FCS schools more centrally positioned than App State, the percentage is higher.
The point, for those who missed it, is this: While the level of competition in the west is suspect to many of you in the east, the fact that any western team can be competitive is noteworthy. The playoff performance of NAU and Eastern Washington (as well as Montana) in the recent past should be sufficient to dispel any notion of perceived weakness.

Also, FWIW, Other BSC schools suffer from the same problems as Montana, Perhaps not to the same degree - but to some degree, nonetheless.

The fans of some other programs will attest to the BSC's ability to compete....ask SIU, UNI, Furman, even APPY whether or not their play-off games with BSC opponents were "walks in the park".

[Appaholic]

Given the difference in population densities, and regionalization of the playoffs, the data set is too limited to draw any meaningful conclusions about the relative strength of the BSC vs. the SoCon/CAA. Additionally (for a variety of reasons) the BSC runner-up is usually on the road, where the road team (in all of FCS) only wins about 20% of the time. This is what makes the NAU/EWU victories, noteworthy.

Just to expound a bit an AzGrizFan's point.....

I once rode the bus from Phoenix to Missoula – about 1250 miles. The trip took 2 ½ days.
When I arrived in Missoula I was tired, thirsty, bloated and dirty…..at least that’s how I felt. If I were an athlete on my way to a competition, I wouldn’t have felt much like competing. I swore I’d never do that again.
To play a conference game against NAU requires the Missoula to Phoenix plane ride – and a bus ride of over two hours to Flagstaff.
NAU is just one conference foe, most road trips are similar – perhaps not as far or expensive – but the difference is relatively insignificant. I would be surprised if any eastern FCS team’s total travel budget cost more than a single trip to NAU or SAC State and I would be astounded if their budget exceeded the cost of two such trips. Montana is roughly 600 miles across and 300 miles top to bottom, Montana State University is our closest conference foe and represents a 3-4 hour bus ride of about 200 miles.
Dividing the population of Montana (900,000) by the two universities (UM & MSU) yields a support base of about 450,000 people per school, and is further divided into the dozen or so satellite campuses with their own athletic programs (Rocky Mountain college, Western Montana college, etc.). North Carolina has 8 million people (in a much smaller area)….you do the math.
while on the topic of geography, I will address the issue of competition for athletes (the converse argument to being “the only game in town” – another supposed “advantage”). Ever hear of 6-man football? Do they play 6-man football in North Carolina? 6-man football is a game played in many towns across Montana (with six men - clever huh)….why? Because the population centers are so small that a school cannot field enough athletes to form a full team. How would you like to recruit these small schools, hundreds of miles apart, to mine enough good athletes for a university football team (we do like to offer scholarships to our own Montana children). It makes for a rather interesting challenge on a limited recruiting budget. Enough of my rant, but I do admit to being frustrated at the lack of understanding by those more cloistered members of our subdivision. I think before you judge us so harshly, you should come on out for a visit…to see for yourself just how “wide open” the spaces are.

………I suggest you come by bus.

For what it's worth......(The math)……

North Carolina's population density is 2000 people per square mile - Montana's is 6.

.....that's 31 full scholarship FCS teams (PER SQUARE MILE) to one 6 man football team for Montana in the same space.
Many students in some of the out-of-the-way places in Montana spend over 2 hours each day commuting to school and back by bus - excluding the time spent picking up students.

Actually, when you think about it, it's an accomplishment to even remain fiscally viable - let alone achieve the kind of success we have, given the demographics of the region.

BTW: did you know that a full 50% of the entire population of the United States lies within a 500 mile radius of NC? (http://statelibrary.dcr.state.nc.us/NC/GEO/GEO.HTM)......that makes for a significantly larger recruiting pool than UM, MSU, or other BSC schools, and certainly has a significant impact on travel costs and ability to compete. For FCS schools more centrally positioned than App State, the percentage is higher.
The point, for those who missed it, is this: While the level of competition in the west is suspect to many of you in the east, the fact that any western team can be competitive is noteworthy. The playoff performance of NAU and Eastern Washington (as well as Montana) in the recent past should be sufficient to dispel any notion of perceived weakness.

Also, FWIW, Other BSC schools suffer from the same problems as Montana, Perhaps not to the same degree - but to some degree, nonetheless.

The fans of some other programs will attest to the BSC's ability to compete....ask SIU, UNI, Furman, even APPY whether or not their play-off games with BSC opponents were "walks in the park".

But the population density works the other way....who's a Montana kid gonna play for? UM or MSU typically.....we are recruiting against ACC, SEC, CAA and other SoCon opponents.....sure we have more talent per capita, but we don't get all of the talent, but the leftovers......

I'm not trashing Montana, but trying to dispel he notion that, currently, the BSC is on the same level as CAA and SoCon top-to-bottom....sure, EWU traveled and gave App a good game, but lost....Wofford traveled and beat the BSC champion at Missoula...the BSC is a good conference who tries hard, but let's not confuse hard work with results....recently, outside of Montana, the BSC has not delivered....xpeacex

[Tailbone]

.....sure we have more talent per capita, but we don't get all of the talent, but the leftovers......

the "leftovers" comprise a larger recruiting pool than is available to most, if not all, BSC teams.


I'm .... trying to dispel he notion that, currently, the BSC is on the same level as CAA and SoCon top-to-bottom.......

I won't argue top to bottom, but the top of the conference can play with any other conference. If the top of the BSC can play with Montana, they can play with the top 10% of FCS (where Montana virtually always finds itself).

[AZGrizFan]

I agree, and there is no need to justify Montana's success. But to suggest the BSC is better or even on par with the likes of CAA or SOCON is ludicrous.....the numbers don't support it. The ONLY Big Sky team making any noise is Montana, but during the same stretch, GSU & ASU from the SoCon won 4 titles and Delaware & JMU brought 2 more titles to CAA.....so, during the 8 year stretch you referenced, 6 titles from 2 conferences & 4 different teams vs 1 NC for Big Sky and only one team represented in any Finals.....sorry, but stats don't lie......

And if the BSC was a 3 or 4 bid league every year, there'd be a lot more hardware on the shelf. xnodx

[AZGrizFan]

It's gotta be Red's.......

You may be onto something there... xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xwhistlex

[Appaholic]

And if the BSC was a 3 or 4 bid league every year, there'd be a lot more hardware on the shelf. xnodx

earn it....

[AZGrizFan]

the "leftovers" comprise a larger recruiting pool than is available to most, if not all, BSC teams.



I won't argue top to bottom, but the top of the conference can play with any other conference. If the top of the BSC can play with Montana, they can play with the top 10% of FCS (where Montana virtually always finds itself).

Both excellent points, bone. xnodx xnodx

[putter]

But the population density works the other way....who's a Montana kid gonna play for? UM or MSU typically.....we are recruiting against ACC, SEC, CAA and other SoCon opponents.....sure we have more talent per capita, but we don't get all of the talent, but the leftovers......

I'm not trashing Montana, but trying to dispel he notion that, currently, the BSC is on the same level as CAA and SoCon top-to-bottom....sure, EWU traveled and gave App a good game, but lost....Wofford traveled and beat the BSC champion at Missoula...the BSC is a good conference who tries hard, but let's not confuse hard work with results....recently, outside of Montana, the BSC has not delivered....xpeacex


Do you honestly believe that Montana schools only compete with each other? The Griz lost a recruit who verballed so he could play for Arizona St. The top rated QB in Montana verballed to Arizona State. Wyoming recruits Montana as does Washington St. Yes, App competes with SEC, ACC etc. but Montana competes with the Pac-10, Mountain West and even the Big-12. (Montana lost a kid who wants to go to Kansas). It happens everywhere but we just have less home-grown talent to choose from.

[Appaholic]

Do you honestly believe that Montana schools only compete with each other? The Griz lost a recruit who verballed so he could play for Arizona St. The top rated QB in Montana verballed to Arizona State. Wyoming recruits Montana as does Washington St. Yes, App competes with SEC, ACC etc. but Montana competes with the Pac-10, Mountain West and even the Big-12. (Montana lost a kid who wants to go to Kansas). It happens everywhere but we just have less home-grown talent to choose from.

No, I don't beleive that, but you're right, those schools recruit in Montana as I'm sure Montana recruits Cali and Texas....my original point is that the BSC is not consistently at or above the same level of CAA or SoCon in recent years.....bring me facts, not excuses, as to why this is not true....all I can do is show the results on the field in recent years which support my statement....

[Appaholic]

Both excellent points, bone. xnodx xnodx

Yes they are if you are looking for excuses...."if we had the talent pool, we would dominate every year"....well, you don't and the BSC doesn't....

[AZGrizFan]

Yes they are if you are looking for excuses...."if we had the talent pool, we would dominate every year"....well, you don't and the BSC doesn't....


...aren't you the one that was just bitching about having to compete against all the SEC, ACC and Big East teams for talent? xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

damned hippycrite. ;)

[AZGrizFan]

No, I don't beleive that, but you're right, those schools recruit in Montana as I'm sure Montana recruits Cali and Texas....my original point is that the BSC is not consistently at or above the same level of CAA or SoCon in recent years.....bring me facts, not excuses, as to why this is not true....all I can do is show the results on the field in recent years which support my statement....

Again....if the BSC was automatically slotted 3-4 seats at the table every year, we'd have a lot more hardware to flash. xnodx xnodx xnodx The automatic assumption every year (and this year will be no exception, even if NAU goes 9-3) will be that the 5th place CAA team or the 3rd place SoCon team is better than the 3rd place BSC team, and a 7-4 or 8-4 team from one of those two conferences will get in over a 9-3 NAU team. Bank on it. Never mind that NAU could have rolled whatever east coast creampuff that team is given to play. You ECB'ers will continue to hold that up as your "fact" and "proof" that the SoCon and CAA are superior conferences.

[Appaholic]

...aren't you the one that was just bitching about having to compete against all the SEC, ACC and Big East teams for talent? xrolleyesx xrolleyesx xrolleyesx

damned hippycrite. ;)

the difference is SoCon and CAA have been delivering recently (last 5 titles in case you forgot) in spite of competing with those FBS conferences so near stealing our talent....

[AZGrizFan]

the difference is SoCon and CAA have been delivering recently (last 5 titles in case you forgot) in spite of competing with those FBS conferences so near stealing our talent....

See my post above yours for the true explanation. It's all about the numbers.

[Appaholic]

Again....if the BSC was automatically slotted 3-4 seats at the table every year, we'd have a lot more hardware to flash. xnodx xnodx xnodx The automatic assumption every year (and this year will be no exception, even if NAU goes 9-3) will be that the 5th place CAA team or the 3rd place SoCon team is better than the 3rd place BSC team, and a 7-4 or 8-4 team from one of those two conferences will get in over a 9-3 NAU team. Bank on it. Never mind that NAU could have rolled whatever east coast creampuff that team is given to play. You ECB'ers will continue to hold that up as your "fact" and "proof" that the SoCon and CAA are superior conferences.

The only "fact" or "proof" necessary is the NC, of which those East Coast conf have won the last 5. In the past 20 years, the SoCon & CAA have won 10 NC spread over 7 teams (Furman, Marshall, GSU, Delaware, Umass, JMU, ASU). During that same stretch, BSC has won 2 titles by one team (Montana)......sorry if you don't like the facts, but they are facts...xbangx

[AZGrizFan]

This year, the SoCon will be no exception, and here's a perfect example. ELON will make the field @ 9-3. They will have lost to EVERY team that was decent on their schedule (Richmond, ASU, Wofford), and padded their stats with the likes of Presbyterian, Stonybrook, Samford, Western Carolina, Chattanooga and Liberty. Elon will be the third SoCon team in the playoffs (after ASU and Wofford). NAU would in all likelihood have the EXACT SAME record had they played Elon's schedule. However, NAU will be left OUT of the playoffs even if they go 9-3, with virtually the EXACT SAME RESUME. They will have lost to UM, Weber (both in the playoffs) and Arizona State. They will have "padded" their resume with victories over the likes of Southern Utah, UNC, Portland State, EWU, MSU, Idaho State, and New Mexico Highlands.

Assuming this plays out this way (and we may never know xcoolx), there is virtually NO way of knowing which is the better team, since neither will have beaten a quality team and their resumes are virtually identical. But Elon will be in, and NAU will be left sitting on the sidelines. All because of the "perception" that the SoCon is a better league. One more chance for a SoCon team to win a game against an East Coast autoqualified cupcake, further padding SoCon's playoff stats and furthering the misguided notion that the SoCon is somehow more powerful than the BSC.

I could develop a very similar scenario for UMass or Maine, who may be the 5th team in from the CAA (or 5th AND 6th if the committee decides to commit a HUGE injustice).

BS. ECB BS. That's all there is. xreadx xreadx xreadx xreadx

[Appaholic]

This year, the SoCon will be no exception, and here's a perfect example. ELON will make the field @ 9-3. They will have lost to EVERY team that was decent on their schedule (Richmond, ASU, Wofford), and padded their stats with the likes of Presbyterian, Stonybrook, Samford, Western Carolina, Chattanooga and Liberty. Elon will be the third SoCon team in the playoffs (after ASU and Wofford). NAU would in all likelihood have the EXACT SAME record had they played Elon's schedule. However, NAU will be left OUT of the playoffs even if they go 9-3, with virtually the EXACT SAME RESUME. They will have lost to UM, Weber (both in the playoffs) and Arizona State. They will have "padded" their resume with victories over the likes of Southern Utah, UNC, Portland State, EWU, MSU, Idaho State, and New Mexico Highlands.

Assuming this plays out this way (and we may never know xcoolx), there is virtually NO way of knowing which is the better team, since neither will have beaten a quality team and their resumes are virtually identical. But Elon will be in, and NAU will be left sitting on the sidelines. All because of the "perception" that the SoCon is a better league. One more chance for a SoCon team to win a game against an East Coast autoqualified cupcake, further padding SoCon's playoff stats and furthering the misguided notion that the SoCon is somehow more powerful than the BSC.

I could develop a very similar scenario for UMass or Maine, who may be the 5th team in from the CAA (or 5th AND 6th if the committee decides to commit a HUGE injustice).

BS. ECB BS. That's all there is. xreadx xreadx xreadx xreadx

Based upon results, perception IS reality.....not with regards o Elon, but with SoCon in general....

[dbackjon]

This year, the SoCon will be no exception, and here's a perfect example. ELON will make the field @ 9-3. They will have lost to EVERY team that was decent on their schedule (Richmond, ASU, Wofford), and padded their stats with the likes of Presbyterian, Stonybrook, Samford, Western Carolina, Chattanooga and Liberty. Elon will be the third SoCon team in the playoffs (after ASU and Wofford). NAU would in all likelihood have the EXACT SAME record had they played Elon's schedule. However, NAU will be left OUT of the playoffs even if they go 9-3, with virtually the EXACT SAME RESUME. They will have lost to UM, Weber (both in the playoffs) and Arizona State. They will have "padded" their resume with victories over the likes of Southern Utah, UNC, Portland State, EWU, MSU, Idaho State, and New Mexico Highlands.

Assuming this plays out this way (and we may never know xcoolx), there is virtually NO way of knowing which is the better team, since neither will have beaten a quality team and their resumes are virtually identical. But Elon will be in, and NAU will be left sitting on the sidelines. All because of the "perception" that the SoCon is a better league. One more chance for a SoCon team to win a game against an East Coast autoqualified cupcake, further padding SoCon's playoff stats and furthering the misguided notion that the SoCon is somehow more powerful than the BSC.

I could develop a very similar scenario for UMass or Maine, who may be the 5th team in from the CAA (or 5th AND 6th if the committee decides to commit a HUGE injustice).

BS. ECB BS. That's all there is. xreadx xreadx xreadx xreadx

Exactly

[Appaholic]

Exactly

I see you and AZ's point, but don't you think the Socon and BSC have made that bed for themselves? With equal records, the committee has to use some kind of criteria...and the fact that, in recent history at least, SoCon teams have gone farther inthe playoffs than BSC. Not saying it's right in the case of NAU, but, the results have proven the committee to be right more than wrong recently when the two teams have met in the playoffs.

[putter]

Based upon results, perception IS reality.....not with regards o Elon, but with SoCon in general....

Based upon results? You now sound like 89Hen! Based on the last 30 years bla, bla, bla. I don't remember anyone saying that the SoCon was not a quality conference but people ARE saying the Big Sky is not! I think AZ hit it on the head. You look at the 3rd team from the SoCon and Big Sky this year, and the SoCon probably gets the nod because of the perception, not the reality.

Reality is that the 2nd team from the Big Sky has upset the #1 seed twice in the past (and it was not close). EWU ran away from a seed in McNeese last year. Yes Montana got beat by Wofford but, according to everyone, losing to the SoCon champ is not a bad loss and that was because of Wofford's offense was foreign to the Griz and Wofford is damn good at running theirs.

[Appaholic]

Based upon results? You now sound like 89Hen! Based on the last 30 years bla, bla, bla. I don't remember anyone saying that the SoCon was not a quality conference but people ARE saying the Big Sky is not! I think AZ hit it on the head. You look at the 3rd team from the SoCon and Big Sky this year, and the SoCon probably gets the nod because of the perception, not the reality.

Reality is that the 2nd team from the Big Sky has upset the #1 seed twice in the past (and it was not close). EWU ran away from a seed in McNeese last year. Yes Montana got beat by Wofford but, according to everyone, losing to the SoCon champ is not a bad loss and that was because of Wofford's offense was foreign to the Griz and Wofford is damn good at running theirs.

Who's talking history now? Sure, we would like to have results from this year, but they don't play each other and will not going forward unless we make playoff field larger, but then we will start arguing about 6-7 place teams. All I'm saying is, if they are both 9-3 and have not shared opponents, then they are probably gonna base it on the recent performance by their respective conferences in playoffs. Based upon your argument, the Southland #2 is just as valid as BSC and SoCon #2 because of McNeese St. The BSC is not a bad conference and has quality teams. But, in recent years, they do not match up consistently with CAA or SoCon. Back in late '70's and early 80's, the Big Sky was a more dominant conference than SoCon and CAA based upon end-of-season results. This ***** runs in cycles.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

If Elon goes 9-3, they would have beat Furman, Georgia Southern and Liberty.

Which would be NAU's 3 best wins if they go 9-3?

[AZGrizFan]

If Elon goes 9-3, they would have beat Furman, Georgia Southern and Liberty.

Which would be NAU's 3 best wins if they go 9-3?

Montana State, EWU and Portland State.

And then your next argument is "well, Furman is way better than Montana State or EWU" and I say "based on what?" and you say " well they beat Delaware, which is a CAA team" and I say "You mean that same Delaware team that's currently 3-5?" and you say "yeah, but they're a CAA team, so they're obviously a better opponent than anybody Montana State or EWU has beaten" and I say "based on WHAT?" and you say "based on the fact that they're in a tougher conference" and I say based on what?" and you say "well they have more playoff appearances as a conference" and I say "well they've got 64 teams in the conference, they SHOULD have more playoff appearances" and you say "well they're just a tougher conference" and I say........oh, never mind.

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Montana State, EWU and Portland State.

And then your next argument is "well, Furman is way better than Montana State or EWU" and I say "based on what?" and you say " well they beat Delaware, which is a CAA team" and I say "You mean that same Delaware team that's currently 3-5?" and you say "yeah, but they're a CAA team, so they're obviously a better opponent than anybody Montana State or EWU has beaten" and I say "based on WHAT?" and you say "based on the fact that they're in a tougher conference" and I say based on what?" and you say "well they have more playoff appearances as a conference" and I say "well they've got 64 teams in the conference, they SHOULD have more playoff appearances" and you say "well they're just a tougher conference" and I say........oh, never mind.

Nope, I was just curious. You aren't a lawyer, are you?

[james_lawfirm]

Montana State, EWU and Portland State.

And then your next argument is "well, Furman is way better than Montana State or EWU" and I say "based on what?" and you say " well they beat Delaware, which is a CAA team" and I say "You mean that same Delaware team that's currently 3-5?" and you say "yeah, but they're a CAA team, so they're obviously a better opponent than anybody Montana State or EWU has beaten" and I say "based on WHAT?" and you say "based on the fact that they're in a tougher conference" and I say based on what?" and you say "well they have more playoff appearances as a conference" and I say "well they've got 64 teams in the conference, they SHOULD have more playoff appearances" and you say "well they're just a tougher conference" and I say........oh, never mind.


WOW! Both sides of an argument in the same post. There's obviously no need for any response, since you have made the point AND the counterpoint.

Actually, methinks your lack of confidence is showing.

[james_lawfirm]

Nope, I was just curious. You aren't a lawyer, are you?

Oops, you beat me to the punch. Good job.

[AZGrizFan]

Nope, I was just curious. You aren't a lawyer, are you?

No but JamesLawfirm is... :D :D :D

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

WOW! Both sides of an argument in the same post. There's obviously no need for any response, since you have made the point AND the counterpoint.

Actually, methinks your lack of confidence is showing.

Agreed. What do they say ... People start talking faster when they're lying?

[AZGrizFan]

Agreed. What do they say ... People start talking faster when they're lying?

Why do you think Bill Clinton was so hard to understand?

[BigHouseClosedEnd]

Well put. It appears we agree on something!

[putter]

Who's talking history now? Sure, we would like to have results from this year, but they don't play each other and will not going forward unless we make playoff field larger, but then we will start arguing about 6-7 place teams. All I'm saying is, if they are both 9-3 and have not shared opponents, then they are probably gonna base it on the recent performance by their respective conferences in playoffs. Based upon your argument, the Southland #2 is just as valid as BSC and SoCon #2 because of McNeese St. The BSC is not a bad conference and has quality teams. But, in recent years, they do not match up consistently with CAA or SoCon. Back in late '70's and early 80's, the Big Sky was a more dominant conference than SoCon and CAA based upon end-of-season results. This ***** runs in cycles.


Yes, but you App fans are making your own cycle and the rest of us are getting tired of it!! xlolx ;)

[appstate38]

Yes, but you App fans are making your own cycle and the rest of us are getting tired of it!! xlolx ;)

Then you have the obligation and duty to do something about!xbawlingx

[AZGrizFan]

Then you have the obligation and duty to do something about!xbawlingx

We'll do our best, sir. xnodx xnodx xnodx

[Syntax Error]

Uh, ever heard of Georgia Southern and Youngstown State? 6 and 4 time champs. C'mon App fans. Three in a row is awesome. It took App 12 times in the playoffs to even make the championship game, then win the first one with a fumble return TD late in the game. Let's see how it plays out this year. xpeacex

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Uh, ever heard of Georgia Southern and Youngstown State? 6 and 4 time champs. C'mon App fans. Three in a row is awesome. It took App 12 times in the playoffs to even make the championship game, then win the first one with a fumble return TD late in the game. Let's see how it plays out this year. xpeacex

Puts things in perspective, and very well said.

[Appaholic]

Uh, ever heard of Georgia Southern and Youngstown State? 6 and 4 time champs. C'mon App fans. Three in a row is awesome. It took App 12 times in the playoffs to even make the championship game, then win the first one with a fumble return TD late in the game. Let's see how it plays out this year. xpeacex

Exactly right. And this wasn't meant to be a Montana vs. App stroke fest. Weber and BSC fans should be excited about Weber Anyone challenging Montana's dominance of the BSC conference can only help the BSC stature if Montana finishes 11-1 and Weber finishes 10-2 asthe new conf champ. And if both teams do well in the playoffs, then I'll shut the he!! up.....xpeacex

[appstate38]

Uh, ever heard of Georgia Southern and Youngstown State? 6 and 4 time champs. C'mon App fans. Three in a row is awesome. It took App 12 times in the playoffs to even make the championship game, then win the first one with a fumble return TD late in the game. Let's see how it plays out this year. xpeacex

You are correct Syntax.... But during those 12 times, how many times did Weber St. make the playoffs???? Yes they are playing well and I hope they continue to be successful. I just would like to see them make some noise in the playoffs before I become a believer. It is the same thing for any other team. The Apps especially were one hit wonders some of those playoff runs. That's all

[89Hen]

And if the BSC was a 3 or 4 bid league every year, there'd be a lot more hardware on the shelf. xnodx
That's xlolx

[Native]

...Some teams (Weber, NAU, MSU, EWU) have erratic recruiting leading to up years and down years....Montana has consistent recruiting leading to consistent winning.

Coach Mac has been a pretty good recruiter, no? xsmiley_wix

And rumor is that he just got a contract extension. xnodx xnodx xnodx

[I Bleed Purple]

Coach Mac has been a pretty good recruiter, no? xsmiley_wix

And rumor is that he just got a contract extension. xnodx xnodx xnodx

How long? Really isn't that unexpected, though.

As for recruiting, Weber has seemingly always been able to recruit half the positions well. Graybeal recruited the O-line great and a few running backs and interior defense. Couldn't get a quarterback or defensive secondary, though, and were still thin on defense. Of course, the younger Arslanian was offense, offense, offense, and little defense (although which one recruited Shields?). McBride's been able to get everything.