UND Sioux Name Change Time Table Set

[TexasTerror]

UND fans -- what's the situation? Do you think the two tribes will eventually give in and allow the continued use of the name? Or is it looking like the end of the Sioux name?


BISMARCK, N.D. -- North Dakota's Board of Higher Education has approved a schedule for discarding the University of North Dakota's Fighting Sioux nickname and Indian head logo if two prominent Sioux tribes hold firm in their desire to dump them.

The timeline directs William Goetz, the chancellor of the university system, to form a committee within the next two months to discuss the issue with leaders of the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake Sioux tribes.

The panel should meet at least twice with Sioux leaders during 2009, the timeline says. If there is no agreement to allow continued use of the name and logo, it says, UND should begin planning in January 2010 to retire them.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=3648105&campaign=rss&source=NCAAHeadlines

[The Cats]

political correctness sucks......xoopsx xoopsx xoopsx

[UND92,96]

UND fans -- what's the situation? Do you think the two tribes will eventually give in and allow the continued use of the name? Or is it looking like the end of the Sioux name?



http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=3648105&campaign=rss&source=NCAAHeadlines

I'm pretty sure it's as good as gone. The writing has been on the wall ever since the settlement of the lawsuit with the NCAA. I do not, nor will I ever feel that UND's use of the nickname was inherently wrong, but I'm just tired of the issue.

[slycat]

Any idea what the name would be changed to if it happens?

[DFW HOYA]

Rhetorical question, of course, but if a school changed its name to Indians, what recourse does the NCAA really have?

The school should ignore the NCAA's PC bandwagon altogether.

[Golden Eagle]

Any idea what the name would be changed to if it happens?

The Suing Sioux.

[UND92,96]

Any idea what the name would be changed to if it happens?
I'm hoping for something that will show the hypocrisy of the NCAA in its dealing with schools with Native American nicknames. So if Sioux is out, how about Cavalry?

[R3TRO]

The Suing Sioux.

HAHAHAHA xlolx

[JohnStOnge]

political correctness sucks......xoopsx xoopsx xoopsx

I agree. This continues to be SO ridiculous.

[JohnStOnge]

I wonder when they're going to tell Portland State it has to go to Scandanavia and get permission to continue being the "Vikings." And I guess Michigan State and San Jose State need to make trips to Sparta. Etc.

It's SO ridiculous.

[BobcatTXST04]

I wonder when they're going to tell Portland State it has to go to Scandanavia and get permission to continue being the "Vikings." And I guess Michigan State and San Jose State need to make trips to Sparta. Etc.

It's SO ridiculous.


Exactly. Notre Dame never asked for permission to call themselves the Fighting Irish. Oklahoma State, Wyoming, and McNeese have never been sued by any cowboys. Purdue and UTEP have never been called un-PC by any Boilermakers or Miners. So is the only resource left to give yourself an animal mascot? I guess ask the Cardinals of Stanford and the Red Wolves of Arkansas State.

[Poly Pigskin]

Exactly. Notre Dame never asked for permission to call themselves the Fighting Irish. Oklahoma State, Wyoming, and McNeese have never been sued by any cowboys. Purdue and UTEP have never been called un-PC by and Boilermakers or Miners. So is the only resource left to give yourself an animal mascot? I guess ask the Cardinals of Stanford and the Red Wolves of Arkansas State.

Stanford's mascot is Cardinal, as in the color.

[dgreco]

If you want to bitch about pc outside of Indians cowboy doesnt work. But A Hoosier is a negative name for a person from Indiana.

[JALMOND]

I wonder when they're going to tell Portland State it has to go to Scandanavia and get permission to continue being the "Vikings." And I guess Michigan State and San Jose State need to make trips to Sparta. Etc.

It's SO ridiculous.

Easier for us to go to Minnesota. Besides, they're probably the only ones who would sue us.

[EmeraldCityBison]

I wonder when they're going to tell Portland State it has to go to Scandanavia and get permission to continue being the "Vikings." And I guess Michigan State and San Jose State need to make trips to Sparta. Etc.

It's SO ridiculous.

I know exactly when that will happen. It'll be when vikings, spartans, trojans, irish, cowboys, and hoosiers complain to the NCAA.

[WileECoyote06]

If the tribes don't wish to let UND use the name Sioux, then that's their decision. The Seminole tribe allowed FSU to keep their nickname.

[Sturgisjeff]

Rename the Sioux contest. I go with Fighting PotatoHeads. or Fighting Sue. The name Sioux is derogatory to begin with. It is a variation of the French word for snake. The seven tribes that were called Sioux are going by the names Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota depending on the dialect of their language.

[ccd494]

FSU paid one branch of the Seminole tribe handsomely to keep their nickname. Another branch said no.

How is UND going to get around the arena issue? I thought the guy who donated their hockey arena (the best collegiate facility in any sport in America) added a clause that if they ever changed the nickname, they lost the arena. That place has the Sioux logo on the leather backed seats, it's going to be a pretty expensive overhaul.

And as for what the NCAA can do, they will no longer let you host playoff games among other things. That's a pretty big revenue maker for Sioux hockey.

[McNeese75]

xmadx Total Bull Sh#T!!!!!!

[DaveK]

Hopefully something can be worked out with the tribes, as I would hate for my favorite team to become extinct. xsmhx

[CatFan22]

Stupid.

[blur2005]

In principle, I agree with this. Are some of you really trying to compare things like vikings, cowboys, etc. to a distinct group of people who have a history of being oppressed by this country, being told where to live and having their traditional way of life destroyed over time? Those are ridiculous comparisons. If the local Sioux tribe agreed to the usage of the name, it'd be fine. But if it doesn't, that's a problem in my mind and the name should be changed.

I will admit that use the names like Sioux or Seminoles or Illini isn't derogatory in my mind or most of the users on here. However, considering the history of Native Americans in this country, I think they have a perfectly legitimate complaint. Moreover, couldn't it be argued that they have a right to their distinct ethnic identity - as in maybe some right to royalties? I know that's a murky issue but it makes sense to me.

As I said, I don't think of these usages as derogatory - how the name Redskins has survived, a completely racist term, is beyond me. If any name having to do with Native Americans should be changed, it's that one.

[Kanitapja]

Any idea what the name would be changed to if it happens?

Canucks - it should help with recruiting.


AND nobody will listen or care when real "Canucks" start complaining about their new racist mascot.

[JohnStOnge]

In principle, I agree with this. Are some of you really trying to compare things like vikings, cowboys, etc. to a distinct group of people who have a history of being oppressed by this country, being told where to live and having their traditional way of life destroyed over time? Those are ridiculous comparisons. .

They're not ridiculous comparisons at all. A term like "Viking" refers to a people identified with a particular ethnic group and there are stereotypes about it. Vikings were a distinct group of people. When you use the term "Vikings," you're referring to the ancestors of present day Scandanavians. You're exploiting part of their historical culture and stereotyping their ancestors.

What about "Fighting Irish" with the guy in green running around? You know, the Irish have historically suffered oppression and been ridiculed as inferior. I don't see a bunch of Irish people complaining.

Heck, take the mascot "Rebels." The South was invaded by the North. A distinct culture was crushed and destroyed by brute military force just like the "Native American" cultures were destroyed. If anybody of the heritage represented by "Rebels" objects to the nickname, it's not because they consider it an insult to them or their historical culture. It's because they've rejected their historical culture.

Lots of cultures have had their traditional way of life destroyed over time. When someone picks a mascot like that, they're picking it because they admire something about it. It is not an insult. And anybody who takes it as an insult has problems.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

I think the argument could be made that the "Washington Redskins" has a derogatory connotation to their mascot name. But using a tribal name is a bit different and I see it as no different than the use of such things as "cowboy", "49er", etc. I personally think it is a tribute to them, and not derogatory at all. Sadly, this really boils down to the tribe just wants some royalty fees and that is what will have to be agreed on for them to keep it.

[darell1976]

The name is as good as gone, they might have a chance with the Spirit Lake Sioux tribe who was at the exhibition hockey game when they put up tribal flags and there were only a handful of protesters, but its the Standing Rock Sioux that is going to be the most difficult to get their vote. If it was a vote of the people of the tribe it would stay the Sioux but since its only the tribal council well....start the new nickname contest. I hope they change it to something non-Indian so we never have to go through this crap again.

[GrizFanStuckInUtah]

One last thing that I forgot to say before was, if the name is not OK now, then how is it OK IF the tribe says so? If it's a bad thing, it's a bad thing period. There are lots of words that I won't use that are that way, and we can all think of them, that people use and just because their friend thinks it's OK, doesn't make it so. Personally, I find this type of PC thing pretty annoying and very unproductive.

[JohnStOnge]

I just thought of another one that should've occured to me immediately:

The Louisiana Lafayette Rajin Cajuns.

The "Cajuns" are the descendants of the Acadians run out of Canada by the British.

Here's a quote from a history at http://www.acadian-cajun.com/hisacad1.htm :

" The Acadians began as a group of (primarily French) settlers in 17th century Canada. Over the years, they have been subjected to numerous hardships that usually result in the disappearance or assimilation of a culture. The Acadians were able to retain large portions of their identity, even after their homeland was taken and they were exiled."

It would not even occur to the Cajuns to object to somebody using their (actually I guess I can say "our" due to my mother's lineage) moniker as a sports nickname. And in this case the "Ragin" part makes it very much a stereotype because Cajuns have a "reputation" for being hot headed.

[proudsioux]

its going to be a sad day for everyone when the sioux name gets changed


1. For the fans, no more nickname that we all grew up with
2. For the teams, no pride anymore in teh nickname
3. For the hockey team, has to find a new home
4. The athletic dept. no great revenue from the ralph
5. the school... we wont get the ralph like we should have in 20 years
6. the indians... no more free loading off us an
7. the indians.... no more free school for them

[Longhorn]

As a fourth generation SoDaker with a bit of Native American blood (Lakota) in me I've heard this discussion all my life. Honestly, I don't have a problem with ND using the image or phrase "Fighting Sioux" as their nickname/logo, and hate that the NCAA has selectively (see FSU's situation) decided to pick on schools like ND and W&M.

But in the interest of making peace, I suggest North Dakota adopt the new nickname "Indigenous Pacifists". xwhistlex

[dgreco]

i just hope they don't become a hawk redskywolf type stuff.


Maybe they can become the Buffaloes :D And we can have the Bison and Buffs.

[blur2005]

We're still comparing apples and oranges with things like Vikings vs. Fightin' Sioux. Vikings weren't oppressed or forced off their lands by another group of people (haha, actually, they did that themselves); moreover, they were around many hundreds of years ago, whereas there are still Sioux living today.

Saying that Vikings is an insult to Scandinavians is one hell of a stretch as not all Scandinavians were Vikings and no one of, say, Swedish heritage in Minnesota is upset about Portland State being called the Vikings. Because of the Catholic nature of the school and its history, people of Irish heritage like having Notre Dame's nickname being the Fighting Irish. Those are not equivalent examples to Native American nicknames in athletics.

[Husky Alum]

Looks like North Dakota and Notre Dame have something else in common besides a nickname that some may find offensive.

One's largest benefactor and the other's legendary coach both have an affinity for Hitler and his Leadership Skills.

[JohnStOnge]

people of Irish heritage like having Notre Dame's nickname being the Fighting Irish. .

And the descendants of the Acadians don't mind ULL using "Ragin Cajuns."

That bears upon the point. It's ridiculous for people of "Native American" ancestry to get their panties in a wad over a university using something like "Fighting Sioux" as their mascot. The university is honoring them by doing that.

And the NCAA shouldn't be pandering to their nonsense. The response should be, "Get a life." This kind of stuff should not be pandered to at all. It should be rejected out of hand.

[JohnStOnge]

Those are not equivalent examples to Native American nicknames in athletics.

Well, they're not exactly equal. But "equivalent" is not "equal." Whether one considers them equivalent or depends on the person.

But if people of Scandanavian ancestry decided they wanted to be offended by using the "Viking" stereotype, they could. But they don't. They're probably proud of it.

And if people of Acadian ancestry wanted to be offended by using "Ragin Cajun," they could. But they don't.

Same with people of "Irish" ancestery.

The difference is that some people of "Native American" ancestry have decided to be pricks about it. And we shouldn't pander to that.

[griz8791]

We're still comparing apples and oranges with things like Vikings vs. Fightin' Sioux. Vikings weren't oppressed or forced off their lands by another group of people (haha, actually, they did that themselves); moreover, they were around many hundreds of years ago, whereas there are still Sioux living today. . .

Blur:

If I remember my history correctly, the real Sioux originated many hundreds of miles east of where they ended up and were forced west by white expansion. Along the way, they mostly did unto other tribes as whites were doing to them. They made few friends among the indigenous tribes they were displacing and consequently the U.S. Army had little trouble recruiting other natives to scout against them (the Crows and the Rees).

In my view this doesn't begin to justify our own policy toward them but in their dealings with their fellow natives the Sioux weren't exactly sitting around singing Kumbaya.

[BearsCountry]

The North Dakota Fighting Ralphs

[WWII]

Don't you have to change the name of the state? If Dakota is ok, you can be the North Dakota Dakotas or ND squared.

[Kanitapja]

Well, they're not exactly equal. But "equivalent" is not "equal." Whether one considers them equivalent or depends on the person.

But if people of Scandanavian ancestry decided they wanted to be offended by using the "Viking" stereotype, they could. But they don't. They're probably proud of it.
And if people of Acadian ancestry wanted to be offended by using "Ragin Cajun," they could. But they don't.

Same with people of "Irish" ancestery.

The difference is that some people of "Native American" ancestry have decided to be pricks about it. And we shouldn't pander to that.

True... but will likely be highly offended if they hijack our great culture...

[pcola]

We're still comparing apples and oranges with things like Vikings vs. Fightin' Sioux. Vikings weren't oppressed or forced off their lands by another group of people (haha, actually, they did that themselves); moreover, they were around many hundreds of years ago, whereas there are still Sioux living today.

Saying that Vikings is an insult to Scandinavians is one hell of a stretch as not all Scandinavians were Vikings and no one of, say, Swedish heritage in Minnesota is upset about Portland State being called the Vikings. Because of the Catholic nature of the school and its history, people of Irish heritage like having Notre Dame's nickname being the Fighting Irish. Those are not equivalent examples to Native American nicknames in athletics.Would the Fighting Scots fit the bill as a good comparison? Their history with the Brits wasn't always a friendly one. I would venture to say that the Scots of the 13th century felt oppressed and the Scots are still living today.

The Catholics in Northern Ireland aren't always on the best of terms with the Brits either and I'm sure many of them would say that they are oppressed. Still living? Check.

So goodbye Fighting Irish and Fighting Scots.

[darell1976]

Too bad UND couldn't be Warriors and somehow keep the logo.

[MplsBison]

The NCAA leaders don't give a hoot about being PC.

It's a simple business decision based on risk analysis.


IE, can the NCAA be sued by the Sioux indian tribes over UND's use of the name? Yes it can => forbid UND from using the name or they can't host playoff games, etc.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

The North Dakota Fighting Ralphs

Glad I had already finished my breakfast; otherwise, there would be little strands of shredded wheat all over my keyboard. xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

Just in case you don't know, BearsCountry isn't talking about the legendary AGSer *****.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

How is UND going to get around the arena issue? I thought the guy who donated their hockey arena (the best collegiate facility in any sport in America) added a clause that if they ever changed the nickname, they lost the arena. That place has the Sioux logo on the leather backed seats, it's going to be a pretty expensive overhaul.

And as for what the NCAA can do, they will no longer let you host playoff games among other things. That's a pretty big revenue maker for Sioux hockey.

I'm pretty sure that Ralph E. has passed away. I can't recall his exact last name. I know he did say that while he was alive, but does he have a foundation to fight it today?

[Ronbo]

In principle, I agree with this. Are some of you really trying to compare things like vikings, cowboys, etc. to a distinct group of people who have a history of being oppressed by this country, being told where to live and having their traditional way of life destroyed over time? Those are ridiculous comparisons. If the local Sioux tribe agreed to the usage of the name, it'd be fine. But if it doesn't, that's a problem in my mind and the name should be changed.

I will admit that use the names like Sioux or Seminoles or Illini isn't derogatory in my mind or most of the users on here. However, considering the history of Native Americans in this country, I think they have a perfectly legitimate complaint. Moreover, couldn't it be argued that they have a right to their distinct ethnic identity - as in maybe some right to royalties? I know that's a murky issue but it makes sense to me.

As I said, I don't think of these usages as derogatory - how the name Redskins has survived, a completely racist term, is beyond me. If any name having to do with Native Americans should be changed, it's that one.



They were stone age people that warred constantly with neighboring tribes committing genocide by completely wiping off the face of the earth enemy tribes. Some tribes are even accused of cannabilism and most certainly practiced rape, piliging, theivery, and slavery.

But as we all know the white man is always the bad guy.

[Stang Fever]

This whole changing the name stuff is the stupidest thing ever. I could understand if the name was offensive. LIKE REDSKINS (which was/is a bad name/word) or something like that but. To have a name that is suppose to invoke pride and strength is a JOKE

[purplepeopleeaterv2]

Too bad UND couldn't be Warriors and somehow keep the logo.

Why not? Isn't that W&M did? Changed the logo slightly to just feathers with the name changed to "Tribe"?

[Husky Alum]

Didn't W&M have to ditch the feathers?

Merrimack College in MA is the Warriors, and they had an some kind of Native American motif until they changed their logo to something that looks like Sparty the Michigan State Spartan.

http://www.merrimackathletics.com/information/Athletic_Information_Pages/Marketing_-_Promotions

[blur2005]

But as we all know the white man is always the bad guy.
Generally, yes.

[darell1976]

Why not? Isn't that W&M did? Changed the logo slightly to just feathers with the name changed to "Tribe"?

Grand Forks had a Jr. High School and 2 Elementary schools with Warriors as nicknames and in 1991 all 3 had to change their names so i am sure it wouldn't sit with NA at least in this region, and #2 W&M had to ditch the feathers but kept Tribe because it didn't single out any particular tribe like Sioux or Chippewas. But i would think NA would bitch about that too, so the best is to go to a non-NA nickname all together.

[Retro]

Generally, yes.

You obviously don't know your world history very well! Every race and type of people have from nearly every country or region have suffered at one point or another! Just like here in america, where a small segment of so-called leaders who want us to believe they were the only people to ever be enslaved, there are small indian tribes who want us to believe that all native americans were wronged and it was because of all white men.. That of course is totally false.. There were good and bad people on both sides.. Some tribes were hostile, some were not.. Some american troops and people were more diplomatic, some where not..

The difference is, there are still a few here and elsewhere who continue to piss and moan about the past in thinking they are the only ones to suffer.. Usually it's the ones in more recent history and who despite been given every opportunity to progress, are always looking to blame someone or don't want equality, but superiority..

There's always going to be a certain segment of what once was minority populations here in america bitching about something. The same with the rest of the world.. You have the palestinians who have been offered everything but the kitchen sink to make peace with israel, but they still want to refight wars from centuries ago and destroy all of israel.

Teams don't select nicknames to ridicule a person, race or people.. They do it in honor.. This seems to be lost in all this discussion.

[youwouldno]

The key fact in the whole dispute is that the name is a tribute, not an insult. But once you get radical leftists (outside and inside the NCAA) and greedy tribal "leaders" involved, the outcome is not too surprising. I think any school ordered to change their name has a great case against the NCAA for tort damages and should pursue it even if they agree to make the change.

So far as the issue of Vikings, Spartans, etc., its definitely a legitimate comparison to the Native American names. The "Sioux" of today are not particularly similar to the "Sioux" that inspired UND's mascot. It's ironic really... had they left UND alone, the Sioux would likely have been remembered even after there were no Sioux left on Earth. Just like people remember the Spartans and Vikings, etc.

But instead, they will just be forgotten.

[bkrownd]

This whole changing the name stuff is the stupidest thing ever. I could understand if the name was offensive.

The "offensive" factor is fairly irrelevant. The key factor is that the people claiming the name don't particularly like or approve of the people using it as the mascot for various reasons, and have a case of insecurity about not being in control of "their" name as an extension of their general feeling of powerlessness. Fortunately, after the mascots are gone and replaced with generic boring easily marketable animal mascots we will no longer have to hear about it. Time to get it over with.

[Sturgisjeff]

The Red River valley is good spud growing country so we could call them the Fighting PotatoHeads. So Dak changed Columbus Day to Indiginous Peoples Day. It's a college started by whites so how about the Fighting European Oppressors. When did political correctness start and why is it ruining our lives. The Fighting S-word.

[trouthunter]

Sorry--have not read all of the posts what would happen to "the Ralph" if the name change would happen--over $100,000,000 for a hockey rink...

Check out the pics...

http://www.theralph.com/asp/default.asp?p=13

let me go out on a limb and say probably in the top 5 for indoor sporting facilities in the entire world for a college!

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Eastern lost its fight a long while ago... we used to be the EWU Savages! Man how I wish we still had that name!

[dmksioux]

Sorry--have not read all of the posts what would happen to "the Ralph" if the name change would happen--over $100,000,000 for a hockey rink...

Check out the pics...

http://www.theralph.com/asp/default.asp?p=13

let me go out on a limb and say probably in the top 5 for indoor sporting facilities in the entire world for a college!

The Ralph would stay the same and UND would continue to play hockey there as well as basketball and volleyball in the attached "Betty Engelstad" Sioux Center. The settlement with the NCAA states that any of the logos that are a part of the architecture would not have to be removed (ie. the marble floors). Logos that are not a part of the architecture would be removed as needed (ie carpeting with logos would be replaced when the carpet wore out). This was what the North Dakota Board of Higher Ed agreed to with the settlement. There are rumors that state the Ralph won't agree or that Mr. Engelstad had some secret agreement that if the name was changed the University would lose the arena. Those are just rumors and people associated with the arena and would have denied those rumors.

[proudsioux]

The Ralph would stay the same and UND would continue to play hockey there as well as basketball and volleyball in the attached "Betty Engelstad" Sioux Center. The settlement with the NCAA states that any of the logos that are a part of the architecture would not have to be removed (ie. the marble floors). Logos that are not a part of the architecture would be removed as needed (ie carpeting with logos would be replaced when the carpet wore out). This was what the North Dakota Board of Higher Ed agreed to with the settlement. There are rumors that state the Ralph won't agree or that Mr. Engelstad had some secret agreement that if the name was changed the University would lose the arena. Those are just rumors and people associated with the arena and would have denied those rumors.


Do u have any association with ralph or the arena? Well if we kiss the nickname good bye, kiss the ralph good bye.... Ever realize WHY we havent demoliashed the old ralph yet? we need a back up plan and thats it.. ill leave u with a qoute from the man himself "if the nickname changes, ill have everyone abandon work the arena and let mother nature take its toll"


that is a direct qoute from the man in the dear chuck letter.... over an out

[mksioux]

Do u have any association with ralph or the arena? Well if we kiss the nickname good bye, kiss the ralph good bye.... Ever realize WHY we havent demoliashed the old ralph yet? we need a back up plan and thats it.. ill leave u with a qoute from the man himself "if the nickname changes, ill have everyone abandon work the arena and let mother nature take its toll"


that is a direct qoute from the man in the dear chuck letter.... over an out
You're delusional if you think the Ralph is going to be demolished if UND changes it nickname. Every offical from REA, Inc. and UND that have ever been interviewed on the topic has said that rumor is untrue. But I'm sure you know better. xrolleyesx

[dmksioux]

Do u have any association with ralph or the arena? Well if we kiss the nickname good bye, kiss the ralph good bye.... Ever realize WHY we havent demoliashed the old ralph yet? we need a back up plan and thats it.. ill leave u with a qoute from the man himself "if the nickname changes, ill have everyone abandon work the arena and let mother nature take its toll"


that is a direct qoute from the man in the dear chuck letter.... over an out

I am not affiliated with the arena. Ralph had stated he would mothball the project during the construction phase if the Board did not keep the name. There have been several people associated with both the Arena and the University that have gone on record as saying there is no stipulations or strings attached with nickname and UND hockey being played in the arena. I'll just have to take them at their word I guess. Their are plans in place for the Old Engelstad Sioux site. The specualtion ranges from an on-campus football stadium/practice facility to expanding the EERC. Here is a link if your curious...http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?showtopic=6529

[proudsioux]

here is some qoute taken from it

"please be advised that we will shut off all temporary heat going to this building, and I am sure that nature, through its cold weather, will completely destroy any portion of the building through frost that you might be able to salvage. I surely hoped that it would never come to this, but I guess it has. "

"It is your choice if you want to put hundreds of construction workers out of a job, and deprive the local businesses of Grand forks of the income they are receiving"

"I might also add that while I was dictating this letter, I received a call from Dean Blais (UND¹s hockey coach), who is completely fed up, and he informed me that he is possibly going to tender his resignation if the logo and the slogan are changed"

HEHE

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/index2.html

[proudsioux]

I am not affiliated with the arena. Ralph had stated he would mothball the project during the construction phase if the Board did not keep the name. There have been several people associated with both the Arena and the University that have gone on record as saying there is no stipulations or strings attached with nickname and UND hockey being played in the arena. I'll just have to take them at their word I guess. Their are plans in place for the Old Engelstad Sioux site. The specualtion ranges from an on-campus football stadium/practice facility to expanding the EERC. Here is a link if your curious...http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?showtopic=6529

im read ss.com very regularly and in the alumni association... you ever hear about the guy, a former sioux football player that sold his company for a very large sum of money and was going to build it for the U... u ever wonder why he hasnt yet... this was supposed to go thru last year and never did cuz of the nickname thing... hes waiting to see i they change it or whats gunna happen if the sioux have to move into the old arena... peace!

[mksioux]

Rename the Sioux contest. I go with Fighting PotatoHeads. or Fighting Sue. The name Sioux is derogatory to begin with. It is a variation of the French word for snake. The seven tribes that were called Sioux are going by the names Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota depending on the dialect of their language.
Not true. Standing Rock in North Dakota still refers to itself as Sioux.
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2008/06/24/news/local/158619.txt

The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe will continue to be known as Sioux, following a special election on the reservation.

Voters rejected a proposal to change the tribe's name from Sioux to "Oyate," a word that means "people or nation."

[mksioux]

im read ss.com very regularly and in the alumni association... you ever hear about the guy, a former sioux football player that sold his company for a very large sum of money and was going to build it for the U... u ever wonder why he hasnt yet... this was supposed to go thru last year and never did cuz of the nickname thing... hes waiting to see i they change it or whats gunna happen if the sioux have to move into the old arena... peace!
Whatever. Everyone affiliated with REA, Inc. and UND are wrong and you and your gossiping buddies are right. Believe what you want and, if it makes you feel better, keep spreading false rumors.

[mksioux]

If the tribes don't wish to let UND use the name Sioux, then that's their decision. The Seminole tribe allowed FSU to keep their nickname.
It's frustrating as a Sioux fan because most people in the Sioux tribes are not offended by the nickname. There is an activist leadership that is strongly opposed to the nickname. There was a movement at Standing Rock to place the issue on a referendum, but the Tribal Council would not allow it. I suspect that's because the referendum would likely pass.
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2008/06/24/news/local/158619.txt

In May, the Standing Rock Sioux tribal council approved a moratorium on putting the Sioux UND logo up for a reservation-wide referendum.
The State Board of Education is putting together a delegation that supposedly will be made up of the highest levels of State government that will attempt to negotiate with the tribes for an agreement. It remains to be seen whether the tribes will receive the delegation. I'm glad the State is making an honest last effort to save the nickname, but I'm not optimistic the tribes will be receptive.

I'm with UND 9296, I'll never believe the use of the nickname was hostile and abusive, or even offensive. But I'm sick of the issue dominating UND athletics. Without tribal approval, the NCAA sanctions are just too oppresive to continue with the nickname. The activist minority has won. The passive majority has lost. It took me many years, but I've finally come to peace with the nickname changing. But I'm not going to lie, it will be a very sad day when it finally goes.

[EKU05]

If you want to bitch about pc outside of Indians cowboy doesnt work. But A Hoosier is a negative name for a person from Indiana.

That isn't entirely accurate. That term is often used in a positive light. I live just minutes from the Indiana state line and I get all of the political commericals that refer to things like "Hoosier Values" as something that the candidates will strive for. Hoosier is the actual term for a person from Indiana. It's like calling me a Kentuckian (which I am). You don't say Indianian, you say Hoosier.

Forcing them to change that name is pretty outrageous though. Most survey's show that most Native Americans aren't even bothered by most of these names. It's an outspoken minority that causes most of the problems. It is a complicated issue though. I had a class discussion on it when I was student teaching at a school in Richmond that goes by "Indians." It was very eye opening.

[bkrownd]

We should have a "retro nickname" weekend across the country. Everybody drags out their dropped nicknames for tood 'ol times sake! The Massachusetts Redmen will rise again! ;D

[Jackman]

Changing "Redmen" and "Redskins" I support. You can't really argue that's not in bad taste. You wouldn't put a team called the "UMass Fightin' Black Guys" out there.

The other native american names are more debatable, gotta look at them on a case by case basis including logos, mascots, etc. Redmen was a no-brainer. Minutemen is a better name in every respect anyway. Maybe North Dakota can make an upgrade too.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Gee - William & Mary, Alcorn State and UND are getting hammered, while Florida State does nothing. Imagine that.

What bothers me the most about the name change controversy is that it's the same old story - the big-money schools like Florida State, who actually have fans that do a lot of offending with the "chop" and stuff, get away scot-free while smaller schools like North Dakota have the Hammer of Thor come down on them. Unfortunately the NCAA is not bothered by hypocrisy.

Having said that, UND appears to have had benefactors whose sole purpose (in life) seemed to be this damned issue, which polarized everyone.

I'm still maddest at the NCAA for insisting that W&M get rid of those two damned feathers. There was NOBODY clamoring for them to change that - that was simply the NCAA being so mad at Florida State that they made an example of William & Mary.

[pcola]

I am not affiliated with the arena. Ralph had stated he would mothball the project during the construction phase if the Board did not keep the name. There have been several people associated with both the Arena and the University that have gone on record as saying there is no stipulations or strings attached with nickname and UND hockey being played in the arena. I'll just have to take them at their word I guess. Their are plans in place for the Old Engelstad Sioux site. The specualtion ranges from an on-campus football stadium/practice facility to expanding the EERC. Here is a link if your curious...http://forum.siouxsports.com/index.php?showtopic=6529
The following link shows the Facilities Future for UND. The old Ralph sits where the future practice facility is proposed #3 on the site plan in the lower right. I read just recently where the new UND president said that the Practice Facility is in the near future for UND.
http://www.grandforksherald.com/pdfs/facilities.pdf

[bincitysioux]

I agree that the name is as good as gone.

It will be a sad day for me, when North Dakota's nickname is retired, but on the other hand it is probably best to sever ties and move on. If the Sioux Indians of North Dakota do not want the honor and prestige that inevitably comes froms being assoicated with the University, then we should not offer them the priveledge of that association.

My biggest problem with this whole issue, though, is the arbitrary way in which the NCAA has implemented the policy. And I don't mean the "namesake approval" loophole which has allowed Florida St. and Utah to keep their names (obtained by paying the tribes royalties from merchandising). Rather, I don't care for the "all the Indians from that tribe no longer exist so they can't object" loophole granted to the Illinois Fighting Illini and San Diego State Aztecs. What kind of message does that send? I also feel it may be more than a cooincidence that all of the schools forced to change their names compete in the FCS division or lower.

As far as any possible replacement names, I wish that the University would just cease to have any nickname at all, and simply be known as North Dakota. This will allow the fans to "unofficially" carry on the Fighting Sioux tradition. We can give the NCAA the middle finger by stocking our local sports stores with Chicago Blackhawks merchandise to wear to games. Lots of sports teams have an unofficial moniker like the Montreal Canadiens (Habs), Pittsburg Pirates (Bucs), or Chicago White Sox (Pale Hose). If a new name is quickly adopted, it will effectively sweep 80 years of history under the rug.

If a new name must be adopted, I hope they take their time and find one that is appropriate and unique to the region, and not based off of some weather phenomena.

As far as UND not using the REA anymore.........hogwash. The Engelstad Foundation funded a huge portion of the lawsuit, and likely had "input" into the settlement. Which is why probably more than half of the settlement indicated acceptable remedies to the decor of the Arena which allows most of it to stay in tact, including non-architectural items like the championship banners and the hundreds of historical photographs that occupy wall space throughout the concourses.

[Kymermosst]

We should have a "retro nickname" weekend across the country. Everybody drags out their dropped nicknames for tood 'ol times sake! The Massachusetts Redmen will rise again! ;D

Why not go back further and be the "Aggies" again for a weekend? Let all the farmers of the world cry out in horror, too.

I really do want to find whoever started this whole "PC" charade and kick them in the shin. Real hard. My favorite was a few years back when UMass considered dropping "Minutemen" in favor of "Grey Wolves" because a white man with a gun might be offending people.

This country as a whole needs to grow a pair and stop cowering every time some pot-stirrer with a lawyer cries wolf.

[MplsBison]

I agree that the name is as good as gone.

It will be a sad day for me, when North Dakota's nickname is retired, but on the other hand it is probably best to sever ties and move on. If the Sioux Indians of North Dakota do not want the honor and prestige that inevitably comes froms being assoicated with the University, then we should not offer them the priveledge of that association.

My biggest problem with this whole issue, though, is the arbitrary way in which the NCAA has implemented the policy. And I don't mean the "namesake approval" loophole which has allowed Florida St. and Utah to keep their names (obtained by paying the tribes royalties from merchandising). Rather, I don't care for the "all the Indians from that tribe no longer exist so they can't object" loophole granted to the Illinois Fighting Illini and San Diego State Aztecs. What kind of message does that send? I also feel it may be more than a cooincidence that all of the schools forced to change their names compete in the FCS division or lower.

As far as any possible replacement names, I wish that the University would just cease to have any nickname at all, and simply be known as North Dakota. This will allow the fans to "unofficially" carry on the Fighting Sioux tradition. We can give the NCAA the middle finger by stocking our local sports stores with Chicago Blackhawks merchandise to wear to games. Lots of sports teams have an unofficial moniker like the Montreal Canadiens (Habs), Pittsburg Pirates (Bucs), or Chicago White Sox (Pale Hose). If a new name is quickly adopted, it will effectively sweep 80 years of history under the rug.

If a new name must be adopted, I hope they take their time and find one that is appropriate and unique to the region, and not based off of some weather phenomena.

As far as UND not using the REA anymore.........hogwash. The Engelstad Foundation funded a huge portion of the lawsuit, and likely had "input" into the settlement. Which is why probably more than half of the settlement indicated acceptable remedies to the decor of the Arena which allows most of it to stay in tact, including non-architectural items like the championship banners and the hundreds of historical photographs that occupy wall space throughout the concourses.

UL - Monroe and Arkansas State were FBS schools forced to change.

[griz8791]

Suppose you could get it to a vote on the reservations and the majority of the tribes said they're cool with the name. What then keeps the next tribal administration from resurrecting the issue and demanding a revote while simultaneously pressuring the NCAA to pressure UND? The dispute could run in cycles for decades and you would always be at the mercy of the tribal leadership.

As distasteful as the whole subject is, because I know there is a lot of proud athletic history associated with this nickname, wouldn't you be better off to bite the bullet, make the change, and put UND's athletic nickname permanently beyond the reach of the PC types?

[mksioux]

Suppose you could get it to a vote on the reservations and the majority of the tribes said they're cool with the name. What then keeps the next tribal administration from resurrecting the issue and demanding a revote while simultaneously pressuring the NCAA to pressure UND? The dispute could run in cycles for decades and you would always be at the mercy of the tribal leadership.

As distasteful as the whole subject is, because I know there is a lot of proud athletic history associated with this nickname, wouldn't you be better off to bite the bullet, make the change, and put UND's athletic nickname permanently beyond the reach of the PC types?
I agree that tribal permission via a referendum, although more likely to pass, would not be sustainable in the long term. The only way I could see it working is if the State negotiated an agreement with the tribal councils for a certain number of years, say around ten, and structured the deal so that the tribes had a heavy economic incentive not to back out of the deal. But even then, we'd still have to revisit the issue every ten years or so, which is not desirable. And I don't see the activists letting this issue go even if a deal were to be negotiated. So your point is very well taken. And it's probably the reason why many nickname supporters have stopped fighting it and have resigned to the fact that the Sioux nickname will be dropped.

[Jackman]

My favorite was a few years back when UMass considered dropping "Minutemen" in favor of "Grey Wolves" because a white man with a gun might be offending people.

The "Gray Wolves" saga wasn't about being PC. Some marketing firm that UMass hired to improve the Minuteman logo and increase merchandise sales made that recommendation to us, because "Gray Wolves" tested much better with children and most female demographics. Logically, a woman is going to be slightly less likely to buy a t-shirt associating herself with a male figure (unless it's a boy band or something), and children are generally idiots, so the Minuteman was doomed to lose that survey unless they asked people with an interest in UMass athletics. Our AD at the time had only been hired a few months earlier, so he put a feeler out there about changing the name probably without knowing what he was stepping into. He dropped it after alumni made their views known.

The "white man with a gun" thing was a completely different incident from about 10 years earlier. That was back in the early 90s when I was a student. Some professional student activist who protested pretty much everything managed to finally get himself some attention when he took on the Minuteman as representing a violent, racist white man with a gun. He went on a hunger strike and got himself a small following of students. Everyone I knew on campus at the time either rolled our eyes at the guy or didn't give a damn either way about the sports teams, but you can always find someone on a college campus to join a cause if it means challenging authority. The chancellor at the time, no doubt nervous about getting into a public fight with a black student about racism, made the mistake of saying he was willing to "listen" to the group. I took "listen" to mean, "allow them to state their case", but conservative reactionaries interpreted that as "surrender to the terrorists", which is when it got national media attention. I'm not sure if that meeting ever in fact took place, but there's no reason to believe that a name change was ever really on the table, and eventually the subject was dropped. The story goes that the activist changed his mind after watching the movie "Forrest Gump", whereupon he decided that the Minuteman represented the American Dream. Yeah, that's what I read. There's a reason we call them "college kids" and not "college adults".

But again, the Gray Wolves proposal didn't come about until many years later.

[bkrownd]

The "grey wolves" thing came shortly after Nebraska Wesleyan disappointed me by changed their mascot from the appropriate and fairly unique "Plainsmen" to the generic "prairie wolves" (i.e. coyotes, which was actually their early 20th century mascot). I like real wolves and all, but generic boring animal mascots blow chunks, IMO.

[griz8791]

The "Gray Wolves" saga wasn't about being PC. Some marketing firm that UMass hired to improve the Minuteman logo and increase merchandise sales made that recommendation to us, because "Gray Wolves" tested much better with children and most female demographics. Logically, a woman is going to be slightly less likely to buy a t-shirt associating herself with a male figure (unless it's a boy band or something), and children are generally idiots, so the Minuteman was doomed to lose that survey unless they asked people with an interest in UMass athletics. Our AD at the time had only been hired a few months earlier, so he put a feeler out there about changing the name probably without knowing what he was stepping into. He dropped it after alumni made their views known . . .

You guys got lucky. You never know what kooky ideas these "marketing firms" might have. Such as . . . just picking an example at random . . . changing the school colors.

xwhistlex

[Jackman]

I think a color modification was part of the deal. Wouldn't make much sense to be the Gray Wolves and wear primarily maroon, that'd have to become a secondary color. Of course, it's also less than ideal to be the Minutemen and wear the colors of the British Army, but whatever, we're undercover.

[blur2005]

You obviously don't know your world history very well! Every race and type of people have from nearly every country or region have suffered at one point or another! Just like here in america, where a small segment of so-called leaders who want us to believe they were the only people to ever be enslaved, there are small indian tribes who want us to believe that all native americans were wronged and it was because of all white men.. That of course is totally false.. There were good and bad people on both sides.. Some tribes were hostile, some were not.. Some american troops and people were more diplomatic, some where not...
I have a very good grasp of world history and an even better one of American history. Of course there were good and bad people on both sides of the equation, who committed both good and terrible acts, but at the end of the day, which group of people was forced to live on reservations designated by what could be termed a foreign government? Which group caused the Trail of Tears to happen? Which group precipitated the massacre at Wounded Knee? I'm sorry but trying to say that both sides were equally guilty of terrible transgressions during that period of American history is just incorrect. That's why I said "generally, yes."

By the way, I'm just a white guy arguing all this, in case there are people thinking I'm being "racist" towards Caucasian peoples everywhere.

[JBB]

Do u have any association with ralph or the arena? Well if we kiss the nickname good bye, kiss the ralph good bye.... Ever realize WHY we havent demoliashed the old ralph yet? we need a back up plan and thats it.. ill leave u with a qoute from the man himself "if the nickname changes, ill have everyone abandon work the arena and let mother nature take its toll"


that is a direct qoute from the man in the dear chuck letter.... over an out

I think you might be right. If I understand this correctly the REA is being written-off over 30 years as a charitable donation. When its fully depreciated UND is supposed to get title to it. Essentially it protects gambling revenues. If it were torn down it would be written-off as a loss on disposal for the same length of time. Its a wash.

As shown above, Engelstad has threatened once, the State is involved trying to "make" the Tribes approve and the trial documents are closed to the public. This points to some pretty high stakes.

In addition I think the current lease prevents UND from covering anything on the walls and floor that werent covered by original design.

I think the guy was just that stubborn.

[bincitysioux]

For anyone who has been following North Dakota's nickname soap opera from afar, one of the two Sioux tribes in ND that the University needs to get permission from to keep the name & logo voted overwhelmingly to support the nickname yesterday in a tribal referendum during their primary election.

Spirit Lake voters overwhelmingly support Fighting Sioux nickname (http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/115793/)

[OhioHen]

In honor of the NCAA and it's policies, they should propose as their official mascot:


















































The University of North Dakota Pissant Administrators

[Native]

UND fans -- what's the situation? Do you think the two tribes will eventually give in and allow the continued use of the name? Or is it looking like the end of the Sioux name?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=3648105&campaign=rss&source=NCAAHeadlines

"Give in" may not be the most accurate characterization of the situation when 67% of the Spirit Lake tribal members voted to approve keeping the "Sioux" name.

If anyone "gives in," it will be the "community activists" leading the tribal councils, giving in to the voices of their constituents.

[Gil Dobie]

"Give in" may not be the most accurate characterization of the situation when 67% of the Spirit Lake tribal members voted to approve keeping the "Sioux" name.

If anyone "gives in," it will be the "community activists" leading the tribal councils, giving in to the voices of their constituents.

It was said on another messageboard, only 1/3 of the tribe will be offended. xeyebrowx

[Appinator]

Just as an outsider, I think the university should be able to call it's mascot whatever the heck it wants. You could call pretty much anything offensive if you wanted to. If someone wanted to change it at the school, they should take a student referendum and vote on it.

I dated a girl who was on the other side of this argument, and didn't know why all teams didn't just change their names to the "bears" or "bulldogs". I told her it was because PETA thought that was offensive too.