Patriot League Graduation Rates (and other Northeastern/Mid-Atlantic Leagues)

[bison137]

Here are the Graduation Success Rates and the federal graduation rates for the Patriot League, the NEC, the CAA, and two Eastern independents:


School // GSR // Federal Rate

PATRIOT LEAGUE

Bucknell // 90 % // 84 %
Colgate // 96 % // 83 %
Fordham // 82 % // 69 %
Georgetown // 95 % // 91 %
Holy Cross // 93 % // 80 %
Lafayette // 92 % // 77 %
Lehigh // 87 % // 68 %


NEC

Albany // 88 % // 70 %
Central CT // 33 % // 20 %
Duquesne // 62 % // -- %
Monmouth // 73 % // 61 %
Robert Morris // 90 % // 67 %
Sacred Heart // 72 % // 64 %
St. Francis // 49 % // 39 %
Wagner // 73 % // 48 %


CAA

Delaware // 75 % // 62 %
Hofstra // 63 % // 38 %
JMU // 73 % // 75 %
Maine // 60 % // 43 %
Massachusetts // 58 % // 47 %
New Hampshire // 93 % // 73 %
Northeastern // 76 % // 61 %
Rhode Island // 62 % // 56 %
Richmond // 89 % // 84 %
Towson // 75 % // 67 %
Villanova // 90 % // 78 %
William and Mary // 91 % // 84 %


IND.

Iona // 66 % // -- %
Marist // 80 % // -- %



Three comments:

1. There are a few real bad ones, with Central Ct leading the way.

2. Any school that has a lot of outgoing transfers will be hurt in the federal measurement (but not in the GSR).

3. Any school that has a lot of incoming transfers should theoretically see an improvement in their GSR unless they are bringing in a lot of totally unqualified transfers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With all the obsession on Patriot League expansion, it's interesting to look at the aggregate of the PL in terms of GSR and overlaying that with the other Northeastern teams that could be possible matches:



School // GSR // Federal Rate

PATRIOT LEAGUE

Bucknell // 90 % // 84 %
Colgate // 96 % // 83 %
Fordham // 82 % // 69 %
Georgetown // 95 % // 91 %
Holy Cross // 93 % // 80 %
Lafayette // 92 % // 77 %
Lehigh // 87 % // 68 %


NEC
Albany // 88 % // 70 %
Robert Morris // 90 % // 67 %

CAA
New Hampshire // 93 % // 73 %
Richmond // 89 % // 84 %
Villanova // 90 % // 78 %
William and Mary // 91 % // 84 %



That's a pretty narrow list of schools that are in the ballpark of expansion. Subtract state schools or public/private hybrids (Albany, UNH, W&M) you're left with three schools. Subtract the teams that are unlikely to become full members ('Nova since they're in the Big East, Richmond since they're in the A-10) and that leaves...

... intriguingly...

Robert Morris. xeekx xeekx xeekx

[bison137]

I think Carney would appreciate it if someone could start a new thread on possible new additions to the PL. I'm not sure we've discussed Robert Morris before.

xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

"Sleepwalking Leopard Fan Found Muttering To Himself On Route 78"

A local man was found on Route 78 today, shaking his head saying "Robert Morris! Johns Hopkins! RPI!" and other various small private schools in the Northeast today.

He also mentioned other words, like "Ken Zee" and "Bison 137", shaking his head the entire time.

Local police gently talked him down when reassuring him that academic standards would not be compromised.

xsmiley_wix

[LBPop]

xsmiley_wix

xlmaox xlmaox xlmaox

[bison137]

Was it an elderly man with somewhat limited mental faculties?

xlolx

[Tim James]

Oooh I'd love to see Robert Morris and Villanova join the Patriot. Albany seems like a better fit to join a "northern CAA" conference.

[danefan]

That's a pretty narrow list of schools that are in the ballpark of expansion. Subtract state schools or public/private hybrids (Albany, UNH, W&M) you're left with three schools. Subtract the teams that are unlikely to become full members ('Nova since they're in the Big East, Richmond since they're in the A-10) and that leaves...

... intriguingly...

Robert Morris. xeekx xeekx xeekx


Oooh I'd love to see Robert Morris and Villanova join the Patriot. Albany seems like a better fit to join a "northern CAA" conference.


Do you guys really want a RMU that admist 75%?

Seems way below PL academic standards.

[Tim James]

Well the Patriot wants to expand and there arent a lot of candidates out there that meet their standards so they're gonna have to swallow that a bit and admit someone who may be a bit below subpar. Robert Morris and Villanova would be perfect I think but I'm a neutral/outsider and thats my view on it. I know schools like Marist and Albany are a definate no no to ever join. Richmond I dont think would consider joining.

[danefan]

Well the Patriot wants to expand and there arent a lot of candidates out there that meet their standards so they're gonna have to swallow that a bit and admit someone who may be a bit below subpar. Robert Morris and Villanova would be perfect I think but I'm a neutral/outsider and thats my view on it. I know schools like Marist and Albany are a definate no no to ever join. Richmond I dont think would consider joining.

Why do you say that Marist a definite no-no?



I agree on Albany. Makes no sense and would be, as the PL stands right now on scholarships,a step down football wise (no offense) for where Albany wants to be (full scholly).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree on Albany. Makes no sense and would be, as the PL stands right now on scholarships,a step down football wise (no offense) for where Albany wants to be (full scholly).

Ain't it interesting, though, that should the Patriot League want to expand once again to large publics, that Albany's football team would be a shoo-in academically?

This isn't merely an academic argument: one of the things that a potential school would have to think about if they were to join is how onerous the Academic Index might be. Using the GSR, loosely, as the Patriot League's APR, Albany would have no problem adhering to the AI.

IMO, if Albany were interested, and scholarships were the roadblock - the Patriot League would allow them in football.

[Tim James]

I think Albany wants to join up with the "northern CAA" schools anyway and also with Stony Brook and CCSU.

[bison137]

I'm not sure that a school's graduation rate for football players says much at all about the academic qualifications of those players.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not sure that a school's graduation rate for football players says much at all about the academic qualifications of those players.

Maybe not at all schools, but Albany is a pretty good school academically to my knowledge. Granted, if you're going by USNWR Albany is a Tier 3 and Marist is a Tier 1 (for graduate school).

[danefan]

Albany is a good school, but it is carried by its great graduate and PhD programs, not really its undergrad.

E.g, top ranked Public Policy and Criminology Schools and of course the Nanotech center which is the only one of its kind in the world and is supported by Harvard, MIT, etc....

[Franks Tanks]

Maybe not at all schools, but Albany is a pretty good school academically to my knowledge. Granted, if you're going by USNWR Albany is a Tier 3 and Marist is a Tier 1 (for graduate school).

Albany is a fine school its just doesnt fit the profile. It is a large state research university, and we are small mostly liberal arts colleges. A fit doesnt need to necessarily be private or a liberal arts school, but it would have to have something in commom. It goes both ways as well, would Albany really want to accosicate itself with a bunch of schools it has nothing in commom with?

[carney2]

"Sleepwalking Leopard Fan Found Muttering To Himself On Route 78"

A local man was found on Route 78 today, shaking his head saying "Robert Morris! Johns Hopkins! RPI!" and other various small private schools in the Northeast today.

He also mentioned other words, like "Ken Zee" and "Bison 137", shaking his head the entire time.

Local police gently talked him down when reassuring him that academic standards would not be compromised.

Insiders tell me that Pard94 and Franks Tanks were involved in some early trick or treating out that way, got separated and disoriented. It has to be one of them.

On this whole area of expansion which, as you know, really spins my dials, the thread on "...the future of CAA football"

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49746

makes some very interesting points that could conceivably come to bear on the Patriot League. You do, however, have to weed out the garbage from some Villanova bozo who says that 'nova football is headed for the Big East. Next up: Columbia joins the ACC.

[jlcharles]

Wow, UMass is abysmal.

[Go...gate]

Colgate tied for first with 99% of all Division I athletes.

http://www.gocolgateraiders.com/news/gen/2008/10/15/gen10152008.asp?path=gen

[bison137]

And Bucknell is tied for 2nd (behind Davidson) in the federal graduation rate. Holy Cross and Georgetown also tied for 2nd.

[Go...gate]

I am presuming the Ivy League still does not report grad rates?

[EmeryZach]

Wow, UMass is abysmal.

Yup. Lots of transfers leave and lots of transfers come in and then drop out. It's UMass, it happens. I'm sure we are probably around most of the bigtime sports schools in the FBS.

[EmeryZach]

Where did these numbers come from by the way? Also, are we sure this is only football and not all sports?

[UAalum72]

Here are the Graduation Success Rates and the federal graduation rates for the Patriot League, the NEC, the CAA, and two Eastern independents:

I suppose you could add Stony Brook to your list, except not up to your snuff:
Stony Brook // 63% // 57 % //


Where did these numbers come from by the way? Also, are we sure this is only football and not all sports?
Yes, these are only football numbers

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=38485

[bison137]

Where did these numbers come from by the way? Also, are we sure this is only football and not all sports?


It's on the NCAA website and it is only football. There are graduation rates available for every sport.

[JoltinJoe]

I'm not sure that a school's graduation rate for football players says much at all about the academic qualifications of those players.

Agreed. And I'm not sure if a high graduation rate at any school means the school is doing a good job; or whether it is not making the work challenging enough for the students.

[Go...gate]

PL did pretty well in all sports except for American University Basketball, for which the grad rate was 31% - simply awful. If they are making progress on this issue, as they promised they would, that progress is hard to discern.

[crusader11]

At least the PL comes in 1st in the most important poll.

[DFW HOYA]

PL did pretty well in all sports except for American University Basketball, for which the grad rate was 31% - simply awful. If they are making progress on this issue, as they promised they would, that progress is hard to discern.

A non-football PL question: after seven years, do people really expect AU to someday improve in these numbers or does the league just shrug its shoulders?

[bison137]

PL did pretty well in all sports except for American University Basketball, for which the grad rate was 31% - simply awful. If they are making progress on this issue, as they promised they would, that progress is hard to discern.


Actually, believe it or not, that 31% graduation rate is indicative of some light at the end of the tunnel for American. Remember that this is a four-year rolling average so any one year cannot move it that much. For each of the previous years, AU's GSR was 18%. If we assume that it had been 18% for each of the four previous classes (and assume that each class has the same number of athletes), then it would take a GSR of 70% for the most recent year to raise an 18% to a 31% in one year.

Now this is simplistic because the numbers in each class probably are not the same. Also some of the improvement may have come from dropping a particularly bad class that is no longer in the 4-year window, but in AU's case, with an 18% GSR, none of the classes could have been a lot worse than the norm.

AU reportedly has been graduating a fair number of hoops players the last couple of years (including Guibunda, who graduated and gave up his last year of eligibility), but a number of these graduates would not yet show up in the numbers. Also their APR (academic progress rate), while not being at the average PL level, is well above average for the NCAA and is actually ahead of Colgate.

[bison137]

A non-football PL question: after seven years, do people really expect AU to someday improve in these numbers or does the league just shrug its shoulders?



I think the league has been putting pressure on AU since Day 1. Remember that the athletes in this study entered AU between September of 1998 and September of 2001, meaning every single athlete was recruited before AU had played its first PL game.

As implied by my answer above, AU is making some strides forward. Its men's basketball APR (academic progress rate) - a more up-to-date measure of academic performance - is well above average for the NCAA and is well ahead of Colgate and Georgetown. All of their sports - both men's and women's - have reasonably good APR's, which means there is a good chance that graduation rates will be acceptable going-forward.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agreed. And I'm not sure if a high graduation rate at any school means the school is doing a good job; or whether it is not making the work challenging enough for the students.

Point taken, but honestly I don't think this is an issue at Patriot League schools. Of course, GSR does not take into account "degree of difficulty" in terms of majors/coursework - but then again, neither does the APR. In the NCAA calculations there is no distinction between an Arizona State "physical education" major and Georgetown government major - it's all about getting a B or above.

When put in that context, the Patriot League numbers really shine. They are getting kids that can handle challenging coursework, and still they have GSR's and APR's higher than almost every other conference.

What will be extremely interesting is the what effects the AI changes will have on men's basketball, especially for AU.

[carney2]

What will be extremely interesting is the what effects the AI changes will have on men's basketball, especially for AU.

Do I recall, LFN, that you are going to take another stab at making the AI comprehensible for the rest of us? If so, I have two requests:

1. Can you give us a link to your last attempt so that we can do some homework?

2. Please include a kindergarten/slow learner version so that KenZ can feel a part of all this.xrolleyesx

[Tribe4SF]

When you guys speculate about potential expansion targets for the PL, you've got to measure the current intentions of other schools re the future of their football programs. For all of the CAA programs, and to my knowledge (based on move to scholarships, and scheduling) the NEC as well, there is nothing attractive about the PL. It's one thing to identify peer (or near peer) schools, but that doesn't mean they will have the least bit of interest in playing football in the PL.

Until the PL Presidents recognize that competitive scholarship football does not have to compromise academics (Villanova, W&M, Furman, Richmond, Wofford, etc.) the football league is doomed to a continued decline.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

When you guys speculate about potential expansion targets for the PL, you've got to measure the current intentions of other schools re the future of their football programs. For all of the CAA programs, and to my knowledge (based on move to scholarships, and scheduling) the NEC as well, there is nothing attractive about the PL. It's one thing to identify peer (or near peer) schools, but that doesn't mean they will have the least bit of interest in playing football in the PL.

Until the PL Presidents recognize that competitive scholarship football does not have to compromise academics (Villanova, W&M, Furman, Richmond, Wofford, etc.) the football league is doomed to a continued decline.

You are right - another way of putting this is that CAA schools that already have one of the most powerful football conferences in FCS. What's their incentive to change to the Patriot League? If the motivation is seen as downgrading their football program, what will happen is there will be a replay of the Richmond situation a couple years ago.

To me, there are two aspects to expansion targets for the Patriot League:

1) If a school has scholarships, football scholarships at the very least have to be on the table for the Patriot League if not implemented already.

2) The AI will have to be a negligible factor, since the school will have to already get the types of athletes that the PL gets already.

No school will voluntarily get squeezed from both directions - if they do, the school will be open to the charge that it's de-emphasizing the program, and putting them in a "Richmond 2005" situation.

There are benefits to playing and aligning with Ivy League schools that go beyond football. But if that comes at the expense of the football program, certainly no CAA team that I can determine will go for that.

[Go...gate]

A non-football PL question: after seven years, do people really expect AU to someday improve in these numbers or does the league just shrug its shoulders?

That was a very big thing when they were admitted, and Bison137 is correct, AU has made progress, though very slowly.

[jlcharles]

Yup. Lots of transfers leave and lots of transfers come in and then drop out. It's UMass, it happens. I'm sure we are probably around most of the bigtime sports schools in the FBS.

I thought the GSR numbers took that into account?

[bison137]

I thought the GSR numbers took that into account?


Yes, transfers who leave in good standing are not counted against a school in the GSR. And incoming transfers - who theoretically have a better chance to graduate than incoming freshmen because they already have a lot of credits and are more mature - do count.

[jlcharles]

Yes, transfers who leave in good standing are not counted against a school in the GSR. And incoming transfers - who theoretically have a better chance to graduate than incoming freshmen because they already have a lot of credits and are more mature - do count.

So I'm right in saying that UMass is abysmal right?

[Pard4Life]

Well then, for all of you non-Patriot League members out there, what would convince you or propel you to join the Patriot League? Would having scholarships be the only requirement?

If the PL gets scholarships and can take a few CAA schools, like Richmond, William & Mary, and Villanova... I don't see how our league would be that much less competitive than the remaining CAA teams... Lafayette, Lehigh, and Colgate upgrading their talent would raise the water... or maybe lower it for the CAA by taking some of their recruits... so would we see a level playing field between the CAA/PL?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well then, for all of you non-Patriot League members out there, what would convince you or propel you to join the Patriot League? Would having scholarships be the only requirement?

If the PL gets scholarships and can take a few CAA schools, like Richmond, William & Mary, and Villanova... I don't see how our league would be that much less competitive than the remaining CAA teams... Lafayette, Lehigh, and Colgate upgrading their talent would raise the water... or maybe lower it for the CAA by taking some of their recruits... so would we see a level playing field between the CAA/PL?

This is true. The question would then become - would Georgetown leave the league as a result of the move to scholarships? And would enough people care to not make it happen?

I guarantee you plenty of people would salivate at a league like this:

Lehigh
Lafayette
Fordham
Colgate
Holy Cross
Richmond
Villanova
Northeastern

I really don't think William & Mary are going anywhere for basketball purposes, but if you wish, substitute Villanova for William & Mary.

In this scenario, Bucknell and Georgetown perhaps drop to non-scholarship football, maybe joining a new non-scholly league with Marist and Iona. Maybe Davidson and Campbell join, maybe they don't.

You've got to admit, that's one compelling football league.